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Post time skip KAKASHI

VS

Post time skip NARUTO (with no nine tails)

no nine tails as in no chakra from it, power, etc., as if it was extracted and he was still alive. Me and my friend have had many arguements over this, and i would like to know what you guys think. Albeit if its one sided to some of you guys, please just explain who you think will win and why.

Fight will take place in chuunin exam arena. First one to die loses.

But still Sage mode, right?

You know, there is a vs. forum.

In fact, you can see it from the anime/manga forum. Which you must have been on to make this thread.

oh my bad i was on that forum and then i went to this one.... any mod think they can fix it for me please? wont happen again...

@q99 yea he gets it just not pre-clones like at the beginning of the pain fight.

CIS off & Bloodlusted - Kakashi uses Kamui and ends Naruto.

PIS & CIS on - Naruto. By Kakashi's own words, Naruto was as strong as, or stronger than, he was. (just after the fight with Kakuzu)
Then there's Sage Mode.

yeah, in all likelihood naruto would win. but kakashi is smart, and knows all of naruto's weaknesses and knows SO MANY techniques, and is getting really good with the mangekyu (how do you spell that?) including the dimensional stuff, madara remarked at how well kakashi can use it and he isn't even uchiha (he should be, he would be so much more epic), and he knows how to open the gates.

naruto is more powerful, and is actually really good at strategy, but i think kakashi, if he was serious about killing naruto, actually would win...if he had more chakra, naruto can outlast kakashi in chakra easily.

but thats my point... no pis bs is really aloud in this fight, and they both have the intent of killing one another with no mercy

Originally posted by menokokoro
yeah, in all likelihood naruto would win. but kakashi is smart, and knows all of naruto's weaknesses and knows SO MANY techniques, and is getting really good with the mangekyu (how do you spell that?) including the dimensional stuff, madara remarked at how well kakashi can use it and he isn't even uchiha (he should be, he would be so much more epic), and he knows how to open the gates.

naruto is more powerful, and is actually really good at strategy, but i think kakashi, if he was serious about killing naruto, actually would win...if he had more chakra, naruto can outlast kakashi in chakra easily.

Kakashi had average chakra levels/stamina in Part 1. In Part 2, he gets a very significant boost. It only seems average since Kamui eats up a shit-ton of chakra, and Kakashi likes to use Kamui a lot.

That said, Naruto can outlast anyone short of a Bijuu-chakra level character (Raikage, Kisame, B) in the chakra department.

Originally posted by Sappho
but thats my point... no pis bs is really aloud in this fight, and they both have the intent of killing one another with no mercy

Yeah, Kakashi likely Kamui's Naruto's head into another dimension. Given that he kamui'd a missile, and Susano'o's arrows, it shouldn't be too difficult to get Naruto in the jutsu.

Of course, with CIS off, Kakashi would activate it from the get-go. With CIS on, Naruto could win.

i know this is a noob thing to ask, but what is cis?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah, Kakashi likely Kamui's Naruto's head into another dimension. Given that he kamui'd a missile, and Susano'o's arrows, it shouldn't be too difficult to get Naruto in the jutsu. yeah, but naruto knows about this ability, and he isn't stupid when it comes to combat, he would probably use many shadow clones as distractions, to prevent that from happening, or something i am not thinking about to prevent that from being an instant win.

Originally posted by menokokoro
i know this is a noob thing to ask, but what is cis?

yeah, but naruto knows about this ability, and he isn't stupid when it comes to combat, he would probably use many shadow clones as distractions, to prevent that from happening, or something i am not thinking about to prevent that from being an instant win.

Character induced stupidity.

Naruto dies miserably here. Kakashi can use Kamui at such a quick speed that Naruto won't be surviving.

Though, on the off chance that Kakashi misses, Naruto will kill him easily.

^ Kakashi missing? If he can get a missile and Susano'o's arrows (albeit the arrows were flying straight towards him), I think he can get Naruto's head.

Though yeah, if he misses, it's likely game over. Guy becomes jello after the tech.

Originally posted by menokokoro
i know this is a noob thing to ask, but what is cis?

yeah, but naruto knows about this ability, and he isn't stupid when it comes to combat, he would probably use many shadow clones as distractions, to prevent that from happening, or something i am not thinking about to prevent that from being an instant win.

Kakashi isn't stupid either. Fact is, he's smarter than Naruto, or roughly as smart as Naruto, in battle. He's also sharper.

Plus, if Naruto uses the Kage Bunshin too much, Kakashi will likely be able to use his Sharingan to pin-point the real Naruto. (Sasuke did that at VotE I believe)

plus kakashi is just striaght up faster than naruto, more adept in taijutsu, and if im correct, naruto wouldnt even be able to use sage jutsu due to the fact of the user having to have to stand still to enter it...

and kakashi was shown to use kamui 3 times before he came jello, id say he has a good two shots of it before hes gassed.

Originally posted by Sappho
plus kakashi is just striaght up faster than naruto, more adept in taijutsu, and if im correct, naruto wouldnt even be able to use sage jutsu due to the fact of the user having to have to stand still to enter it...

and kakashi was shown to use kamui 3 times before he came jello, id say he has a good two shots of it before hes gassed.

Naruto is faster in Sage Mode and insanely stronger. I was assuming he started the fight in Sage Mode, otherwise it would be even more spitey than it already is.

When has he used it more than twice in one setting? I can't seem to recall.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
When has he used it more than twice in one setting? I can't seem to recall.

Kakashi used Kamui about 3 times during the Pein invasion I think. However mentioning that in this thread seem kind of unnecessary since he up and killed himself when he tried going past his limit.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Kakashi used Kamui about 3 times during the Pein invasion I think. However mentioning that in this thread seem kind of unnecessary since he up and killed himself when he tried going past his limit.

Eh?

*thinks back*

One for the nail, one for the missile...that's only two I can recall.

Really?

I thought he used one earlier on before then.

However if its really just two time then Kakashi would have to make a perfect headshot to take out Naruto

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Kakashi isn't stupid either. Fact is, he's smarter than Naruto, or roughly as smart as Naruto, in battle. He's also sharper.

Plus, if Naruto uses the Kage Bunshin too much, Kakashi will likely be able to use his Sharingan to pin-point the real Naruto. (Sasuke did that at VotE I believe) Oh i know, Kakashi is much sharper, and probably a little smarter in combat. But if there were hundreds of narutos around, he wouldn't wast his most chakra wasting attack on a target he isn't sure is the right one.

I don't think they can tell with sharengan, all the shadow clones have the same amount of chakra, what is VotE?

I've been thinking about this a bit more, and i think kakashi would win most of the time now. on one hand, naruto in sage mode would own kakashi, but, it takes time to get in sage mode, and he needs to sit still, or have the toads fuse with him, which he never actually learned to do. regardless, both take time, and in that time kakashi could kill naruto, using his superior techniques and experience to get the job done.

on the other, naruto just goes all out, knowing that if he waits too long, his head would simply be gone. he makes hundreds of shadow clones, using hundreds of rasengans (if he can without the kyuubis help) or whatever. but, even here, kakashi has knowledge of this technique and would know how to counter it. he would probably use the shadow clones against naruto somehow, and win that way. or whatever, kakashi is just too smart and too good at what he deos.

really the only thing naruto has going for him is raw power, and determinedness...and really fast, really good, combat strategies.

If Naruto starts in Sage Mode, he stomps.

Actually, since he has no Kyuubi, no longer will he have to stand still to activate it.

yeah, but he never mastered the fusion, cuz the kyuubi always kicked him out before they could practice

Originally posted by NemeBro
If Naruto starts in Sage Mode, he stomps.

Actually, since he has no Kyuubi, no longer will he have to stand still to activate it.
He needs a frog elder for that.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
CIS off & Bloodlusted - Kakashi uses Kamui and ends Naruto.



Though even with bloodlusted, Naruto can use his Sage Clones, which are quite dangerous, and try and make it so Kakashi won't know which is real. Using Kamui on the wrong one could grant Naruto the win.



Even saying that, Kakashi's got a lot more flexibility and experience.

I think both get some wins.

Even with sage mode, I don't see Naruto winning. Kakashi's got the experience and the skills to take him down, plus he knows Naruto inside out anyway.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Even with sage mode, I don't see Naruto winning. Kakashi's got the experience and the skills to take him down, plus he knows Naruto inside out anyway.

Naruto's taken him by surprise on occasion, so I wouldn't be so sure.

Sage mode isnt really an option... he cant fuse with the toads, so its out. sitting there is instant death, so what else can he do? and im with blax on that one, even if he was in sage mode hes still pretty predictable, and kakashi knows him all too well. albeit if naruto does hit him hes done for, but i dont think what would happen even with his speed.

kakashi was shown to use kamui for times, twice at deidara (to rip his arm off and blow away his bomb), at pains missle, and susano'os arrow

Originally posted by NemeBro

Actually, since he has no Kyuubi, no longer will he have to stand still to activate it.

Wut?

He still has the Kyuubi, albeit, it is sealed up much better right now, and Naruto can access its chakra. So nah. It's also not confirmed whether or not the elders can fuse with him.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Oh i know, Kakashi is much sharper, and probably a little smarter in combat. But if there were hundreds of narutos around, he wouldn't wast his most chakra wasting attack on a target he isn't sure is the right one.

True, but he'd instead resort to other methods to take out the clones, who would all be much weaker than the real Naruto, due to the Kage Bunshin's even chakra splitting.

Originally posted by menokokoro
I don't think they can tell with sharengan, all the shadow clones have the same amount of chakra, what is VotE?

No, not even the Byakugan can tell apart a Kage Bunshin from the real one. However, at Valley of the End (VotE), Sasuke mentioned something about the Sharingan being able to tell which is the real one. Seeing as the Sharingan cannot tell apart the difference, I presume he simply kept track of the real Naruto when he used the jutsu, or his Sharingan got accustomed to Naruto's style.

Originally posted by menokokoro
I've been thinking about this a bit more, and i think kakashi would win most of the time now. on one hand, naruto in sage mode would own kakashi, but, it takes time to get in sage mode, and he needs to sit still, or have the toads fuse with him, which he never actually learned to do. regardless, both take time, and in that time kakashi could kill naruto, using his superior techniques and experience to get the job done.

on the other, naruto just goes all out, knowing that if he waits too long, his head would simply be gone. he makes hundreds of shadow clones, using hundreds of rasengans (if he can without the kyuubis help) or whatever. but, even here, kakashi has knowledge of this technique and would know how to counter it. he would probably use the shadow clones against naruto somehow, and win that way. or whatever, kakashi is just too smart and too good at what he deos.

really the only thing naruto has going for him is raw power, and determinedness...and really fast, really good, combat strategies.

Meh, personally I think that current Naruto has far better odds in most situations, unless CIS is off, and bloodlust is on. If Naruto is in Sage Mode, his odds improve dramatically due to his speed. But if Deva can handle his speed, I think Kakashi who has the Sharingan, should be able to do so as well. RasenShuriken would end Kakashi though, unless he kamui's it before it expands.

I still don't know the stips of this battle. So far, I assume CIS is off, so Naruto should have a higher win percentile than Kakashi.

Originally posted by Q99
Though even with bloodlusted, Naruto can use his Sage Clones, which are quite dangerous, and try and make it so Kakashi won't know which is real. Using Kamui on the wrong one could grant Naruto the win.

Kakashi wouldn't take that chance though, even if he was bloodlusted. He isn't that reckless. Against someone who can outlast him by a huge amount, he wouldn't risk wasting Kamui.

As for the Sage clones, it depends on what the specifics of the battle are. Against Pain, Naruto could only make a couple of clones in Sage Mode, since he had clones gathering chakra in Myobokuzan. Against the Kyuubi, he had many clones, but it didn't matter, since Naruto was sitting still the entire time, so he could enter Sage Mode whenever he wanted.

If Naruto starts off with clones gathering Natural Energy, he won't be able to mass spam KB, not unless he does not want to enter Sage Mode again. On the other hand, if he doesn't start off in Sage Mode at all, he won't be entering it, not unless Kakashi makes the mistake of immobilizing him, instead of taking his head off.

If Naruto has time to pre-charge Sage mode, I think there'll be trouble and Naruto has the edge, but without that the edge is likely on 'kashi.




On the surface his move list doesn't change a lot, but the power lets him use them in more ways. Rasenshuriken can be thrown, can explode or expand, etc.. He can do bigger rasengans for more area of effect, his taijutsu is a huge threat, he can throw clones, he uses rasengans to make smoke clouds (which his sensor abilities let him operate in better than others), and he can do more summoning.

He's got a finite number of threats, but the increased power of them means the margin of error for dealing with them shrinks to a razor-thin line, and he is good at coming up with creative ways to use them.

So 'predictable' isn't how I'd describe him. Especially when Kakashi hasn't personally seen him fight in sage mode before.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

I still don't know the stips of this battle. So far, I assume CIS is off, so Naruto should have a higher win percentile than Kakashi.


Damn, made a typo in my post. Meant to say 'on' instead of 'off'.

cis and pis are off for this fight, and they both want to kill each other badly.

also, how is naruto going to even try to mass spam kb when he doesnt have the kyuubis chakra?

ok, bottom line (for me) This would be an epic fight, and I do not know who would win. There are just too many factors, though if i had to pick i would say kakashi, just because of his superior experience, and knowledge of naruto

Originally posted by Sappho
cis and pis are off for this fight, and they both want to kill each other badly.

also, how is naruto going to even try to mass spam kb when he doesnt have the kyuubis chakra?

He uses his 'own' chakra for Kage Bunshins, not the Kyuubi's chakra. The only time he starts using the Kyuubi's chakra is when he becomes frustrated. Of course, some of the Kyuubi's chakra naturally mixes with his own, but it's implied that that is Naruto's natural chakra pool.

In this thread there is no Kyuubi. I twist this to meaning it no longer exists because **** you.

Naruto can summon the Elder.

With Sage Mode, he is too fast for Kakashi to defend against, and a single punch will blow him in half.

Yeah...I dislike this thread. It's purposely spiteful, which irks me.

Naruto w/ Sage mode just pounds Kakashi's face in before he can do anything. But, he won't be able to do sage mode with these conditions.

Originally posted by NemeBro
In this thread there is no Kyuubi. I twist this to meaning it no longer exists because **** you.

Naruto can summon the Elder.

With Sage Mode, he is too fast for Kakashi to defend against, and a single punch will blow him in half.

These were my thoughts. Kakashi did not stand a chance against two of the "Pains", even with the help of fat boy and his dad.

Naruto got as far as he did without Pain's "push" technique, though.

However, Naruto crushed the bot pain like it was nothing and many Konoha ninjas fell to that ass.

It's hard to say.

Originally posted by NemeBro
In this thread there is no Kyuubi. I twist this to meaning it no longer exists because **** you.

Naruto can summon the Elder.

With Sage Mode, he is too fast for Kakashi to defend against, and a single punch will blow him in half.

If it no longer exists, Naruto no longer has a very high chakra level, therefore he cannot use Sage Mode as his chakra level would be much lower...ergo **** you back. estahuh

Not really. If Deva could block his attacks, it implies he can keep up with him. Kakashi with the Sharingan active would have better reaction times, thanks to the Sharingan. Plus if Naruto uses Taijutsu/Frog Fu, his attacks will be predicted by the Sharingan.

EDIT: Never mind, even if Kakashi dodges, there's a chance he will get hit due to what happened to that Path when it dodged Naruto's fist.

I don't even remember how Naruto's fight with Pein went down. Was he moving faster than Pein could react? If not then I doubt he can speed blitz Kakashi... Kakashi arguably has the best "dodging" feats in the entire manga, and wasn't Pein's inferior in that regard.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Naruto w/ Sage mode just pounds Kakashi's face in before he can do anything. But, he won't be able to do sage mode with these conditions.

He can have clones charging up while he faces Kakashi directly, to give him a late-game boost.

If Kakashi doesn't figure it out. But there's room for layers of trickery there too (*These* charging clones are meant to be noticed and draw attack, so Naruto can strike when he goes for them, while *those* clones are meant to charge for real).

Or Naruto can just say **** Sage Mode all together, summon Ma and Pa, and let them take care of it.

And while they're fighting Kakashi, charge up Sage Mode while in....the audience stands....Grr. This is why I hate the fight. It's not structured for there to be a chance of Naruto winning. Kakashi is holding all the cards at the moment.

Originally posted by NemeBro
In this thread there is no Kyuubi. I twist this to meaning it no longer exists because **** you.

Naruto can summon the Elder.

With Sage Mode, he is too fast for Kakashi to defend against, and a single punch will blow him in half.
i doubt he would still be alive by the time he summoned the elders and told them he needed to fuse with them to enter sage mode.

and on top of that, he still needs time to enter it, which is like an instant kill from kakashi. kakuzu couldnt even react to kakashi putting a raikiri through his chest. Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I don't even remember how Naruto's fight with Pein went down. Was he moving faster than Pein could react? If not then I doubt he can speed blitz Kakashi... Kakashi arguably has the best "dodging" feats in the entire manga, and wasn't Pein's inferior in that regard.
barely. and that was only a few of the pains. i go with you on that one, people seem to underestimate kakashis speed on this.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or Naruto can just say **** Sage Mode all together, summon Ma and Pa, and let them take care of it.

And while they're fighting Kakashi, charge up Sage Mode while in....the audience stands....Grr. This is why I hate the fight. It's not structured for there to be a chance of Naruto winning. Kakashi is holding all the cards at the moment.
i made the fight because me and my friend were arguing about this... i told him the same thing your saying, but he didnt get it.

Kakashi did that with stealth and surprise more-so than speed. Face to face, Kakuzu could keep up with him.

Because of Kamui, Naruto's only option is to use a clone immediately to dodge it. This fight won't last long.

well, wait, I may be wrong, but doesn't kakashi know how to release the gates too?

In canon, he's only shown opening the first gate.

awesome! so he SHOULD know more, but we dont KNOW if he can...thats lame. If he can open all, or even 5 (isn't that what lee did in the exams?) he would win easily.

Sage Mode Naruto would crush five Gates. >=(

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sage Mode Naruto would crush five Gates. >=(

Indeed. With 1 finger. Problem is I don't know if he'd be able to react to it fast enough. Kakashi had to use his sharingan to keep up with it.

Originally posted by menokokoro
awesome! so he SHOULD know more, but we dont KNOW if he can...thats lame. If he can open all, or even 5 (isn't that what lee did in the exams?) he would win easily.
Why should he know more? The first gate is just the front lotus... Lee learned that long before he learned reverse lotus.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Why should he know more? The first gate is just the front lotus... Lee learned that long before he learned reverse lotus. well, the way I saw it is that Kakashi learned to release the gates from Lee, so along with that, the 5th gate. and its been a while since that point in time, so thats why I think even further.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Indeed. With 1 finger. Problem is I don't know if he'd be able to react to it fast enough. Kakashi had to use his sharingan to keep up with it.

But Naruto has one of the fastest speed feats while in Sage Mode.

It isn't exactly defined at which is faster: Sage Mode or 5-Gates Lee/Gai.

Also, we don't know if that is the reason he used his sharengan, i just thought it was so he could learn the gates

Originally posted by dadudemon
But Naruto has one of the fastest speed feats while in Sage Mode.

It isn't exactly defined at which is faster: Sage Mode or 5-Gates Lee/Gai.

I'm aware of this.

Being faster doesn't really mean much. 5-Gates was a super fast attack that Kakashi had to observe with his sharingan.

I have no doubt that Naruto in Sage Mode could keep up with it. I do doubt that he'll be able to react fast enough.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Also, we don't know if that is the reason he used his sharengan, i just thought it was so he could learn the gates

If he could recognize the gates, why would he need to copy it? He's clearly seen it before and could have copied it then.

Then there is Neji also using the Byakugan to keep up with it while also being surprised. And he can't exactly copy it.

boo Kakashi wins, end of story.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If he could recognize the gates, why would he need to copy it? He's clearly seen it before and could have copied it then.

Then there is Neji also using the Byakugan to keep up with it while also being surprised. And he can't exactly copy it. Why do you say that he "clearly" has seen it before? Just cuz he recognized it doesn't mean he has seen it, he could have known about it and then connected the dots when he saw lee.

Neji? really? you are comparing Gennin Neji, with byakugan which isn't an eye technique to copy techs, to Jonin++ Kakashi who is famous for copying techniques with his Sharengan? Neji isn't as experienced as Kakashi, so of course he would have to use his eyes to keep up, Gai didn't have to use an eye tech to keep up, nor did the Jounin reff or the Hokage.

Originally posted by menokokoro
well, the way I saw it is that Kakashi learned to release the gates from Lee, so along with that, the 5th gate. and its been a while since that point in time, so thats why I think even further.
He was Gai's rival and friend for years, the idea that he had never seen the technique used before is, imo, ludicrous.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sage Mode Naruto would crush five Gates. >=(
you keep saying this, but can naruto automatcially activate it at will with no time in between? iirc, i dont think he can, and during this time it wont be much trouble for kakashi to use lightning blade.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He was Gai's rival and friend for years, the idea that he had never seen the technique used before is, imo, ludicrous. Why is that ludicrous? They weren't on a team together, they never seriously fought, I'm not saying that there is no way he could have seen it, I'm just saying it's not far off to say he hadn't until then. ALSO! We don't know if the writer thought of that either, and really, thats all that matters in this argument.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sage Mode Naruto would crush five Gates. >=( Originally posted by dadudemon
But Naruto has one of the fastest speed feats while in Sage Mode.

It isn't exactly defined at which is faster: Sage Mode or 5-Gates Lee/Gai.

7 Gates Gai blows Sage Mode Naruto out of the water. uhuh

But I'd take Sage Mode over having the ability to open 7 Gates, any day. Now opening 7 Gates while in Sage Mode...

You'd explode

Originally posted by menokokoro
You'd explode

You'd one shot Superboy Prime at his prime.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You'd one shot Superboy Prime at his prime. ....and then explode.

kakashi is still overall a better ninja than naruto...naruto just has an has insanely strong jutsu called the rasen shuriken