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Tiamut

http://s1d6.turboimagehost.com/t/5238891_Scan014.jpg http://s1d6.turboimagehost.com/t/5238895_Scan015.jpg

Based on feats Kubik wins.

Based on powersets Tiamut stomps.

Yeah, pretty much depends which you give more credence to: feats or statements.

For instance, Kubik gesturely warped the Beyonder's entire universe into a tiny sphere that he could easily crush in his hand -- a feat FAR beyond anything the Celestials have ever done. However, Kubik has also stated that even the weakest Celestials are infinitely more powerful than himself. Meh.

srug

Tiamut FTW

Originally posted by Galan007
However, Kubik has also stated that even the weakest Celestials are infinitely more powerful than himself. Meh.



If he had said this once, we could chalk it up to th writer not knowing the Marvel hierarchy, but he's said it multiple times.

Feat wise, on panel, Kubik > anything any Celestial or most other abstracts has ever done. But that feat, encapsulating the Beyonder's universe in a globe in the palm of his hands, is suspect. Was it really an entire universe (infinite in size with it's own abstracts) or just a pocket dimension (like Mephisto or Satannish's realms)?

Tiamut easily..

In this case, feats don't matter.

Tiamut easily.

good to see ya x

Nice to see you to, friend.

Originally posted by zopzop
If he had said this once, we could chalk it up to th writer not knowing the Marvel hierarchy, but he's said it multiple times.

Feat wise, on panel, Kubik > anything any Celestial or most other abstracts has ever done. But that feat, encapsulating the Beyonder's universe in a globe in the palm of his hands, is suspect. Was it really an entire universe (infinite in size with it's own abstracts) or just a pocket dimension (like Mephisto or Satannish's realms)? To my knowledge it was a full-fledged universe.

Originally posted by Galan007
To my knowledge it was a full-fledged universe.

That's what it's been portrayed as. Numerous instances where they've mentioned that it was a universe and never once did they say it was a pocket dimension at all.

Kubik in terms of feat. Statement wise Tiamut would take this.

Numerous times? I may have missed a few issues where they mentioned it. But the only time I recall it being mentioned as a "universe" was in the FF issue where the fight went down.

The 'universe' was noticeably lacking abstractions and when the Beyonder bragged that he was God here, all his worshipers were Earth bound.

That and the fact that the theme of the issue was "nothing is as it seems" leads me to believe it was a pocket dimension like the various Hells or offshoot dimensions to our own.

Originally posted by zopzop
Numerous times? I may have missed a few issues where they mentioned it. But the only time I recall it being mentioned as a "universe" was in the FF issue where the fight went down. Read that issue again... I just did.

Beyonder's creation was referred to as "a universe" at least a dozen times. It was also referenced as such in GotG.

The main problem I have with Kubik's addressing to the Celestial is that it's outdated. Whereas in more recent encounters, Thanos #10 where Kosmos (another cube being) took mortal form and was bested by Thanos.

^ Cube beings have certainly been watered down over the years, but that's still an insanely low showing... Even for them.

Originally posted by Galan007
Read that issue again... I just did.Beyonder's creation was referred to as "a universe" at least a dozen times.


I have the issue and read it. I was just asking where else was it referred to as a universe. The fact is his universe was devoid of any alien races and abstractions. Full cube beings don't have that kind of power (to create a Universe or Destroy one) and Beyonder wasn't even a full cube being.

Add to the fact that Kubik (or any other Cube being) hasn't been shown doing anything on that level of power before or since that event. It doesn't add up.



Hmm I think I remember this too. This was after the Protege fiasco.

Originally posted by zopzop
Full cube beings don't have that kind of power (to create a Universe or Destroy one) and Beyonder wasn't even a full cube being.

Add to the fact that Kubik (or any other Cube being) hasn't been shown doing anything on that level of power before or since that event. It doesn't add up. I disagree. Aside from a few instances, we've never really seen cube beings go all out -- but when they do, they usually display insane levels of power. Case in point: Beyonder and MM's next battle (which occurred years later) affecting trans-multiversal reality:

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3181/ffann02754.th.jpghttp://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8886/ffann02755.th.jpg

That's huge.

Originally posted by zopzop
Hmm I think I remember this too. This was after the Protege fiasco.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Cube beings have certainly been watered down over the years, but that's still an insanely low showing... Even for them.

I find the Maker showing against Thanos as being very strange, because in the same comic it's stated by Thanos, iirc, that Maker still has the power of roll back the universe to the crunch or something like that. I was also under the impression that the only reason Thanos won was because of Maker's failing mental health.

Originally posted by Galan007
I disagree. Aside from a few instances, we've never really seen cube beings go all out -- but when they do, they usually display insane levels of power. Case in point: Beyonder and MM's next battle (which occurred years later) affecting trans-multiversal reality:

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3181/ffann02754.th.jpghttp://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8886/ffann02755.th.jpg

That's huge.

Yes and what exactly was affected? A potted plant gained consciousness, a Watcher goes blind, a world is destroyed, some 2d beings gain a 3rd dimension, and a statue on the Skrull homeworld cries blood.

Odin/Seth have done more when they fought. Aaron and Uatu when they threw down, it rippled across every plane of existence. Two Thors merely clangin' hammers shook the universe.

I'm just not impressed by what was shown on panel.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I find the Maker showing against Thanos as being very strange, because in the same comic it's stated by Thanos, iirc, that Maker still has the power of roll back the universe to the crunch or something like that. I was also under the impression that the only reason Thanos won was because of Maker's failing mental health.

You are correct. Maker purposely took mortal form and allowed itself to have certain weaknesses (particularly mental ones, Oracle of the Imperial Guard shut Maker's mind down and that's how it was imprisoned in the Klynn in the first place).

Also, Thanos did say it was still a universal threat. But when the Annihilation Wave event occurred, and most of the Klynn prisoners were either free or killed, Surfer and Galactus were having a conversation about the escapees. Surfer wondered about the threat the Maker now posed, but Galactus referred to something FAR worse than the Maker being imprisoned there. That was Aegis and Teneberous.

So according to Galactus, Aegis/Teneberous > Maker.

Originally posted by zopzop
You are correct. Maker purposely took mortal form and allowed itself to have certain weaknesses (particularly mental ones, Oracle of the Imperial Guard shut Maker's mind down and that's how it was imprisoned in the Klynn in the first place).

Also, Thanos did say it was still a universal threat. But when the Annihilation Wave event occurred, and most of the Klynn prisoners were either free or killed, Surfer and Galactus were having a conversation about the escapees. Surfer wondered about the threat the Maker now posed, but Galactus referred to something FAR worse than the Maker being imprisoned there. That was Aegis and Teneberous.

So according to Galactus, Aegis/Teneberous > Maker.

Which given the comment by Kubik concerning the Celestials is very likely to also apply for the Proemial Gods, that where basically doing on another scale what the Celestials are doing currently.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes and what exactly was affected? A potted plant gained consciousness, a Watcher goes blind, a world is destroyed, some 2d beings gain a 3rd dimension, and a statue on the Skrull homeworld cries blood.

Odin/Seth have done more when they fought. Aaron and Uatu when they threw down, it rippled across every plane of existence. Two Thors merely clangin' hammers shook the universe.

I'm just not impressed by what was shown on panel.

Don't be dense man. That scan shows that the aftershocks of the struggle of two beings that have only fraction of the power of a full cube being were warping reality across dimensions.

Destroying things (as odin and seth did) is one thing, but granting sentience to non thinking lifeforms, and expanding a 2-D dimension into 3D implies complexity, not just force.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Don't be dense man. That scan shows that the aftershocks of the struggle of two beings that have only fraction of the power of a full cube being were warping reality across dimensions.

Destroying things (as odin and seth did) is one thing, but granting sentience to non thinking lifeforms, and expanding a 2-D dimension into 3D implies complexity, not just force.

Odin/Seth shook the multiverse, destroyed galaxies and reignited long dead stars. It was stated on panel that all reality was in danger and dying.

So a blinded Watcher, a talking plant, a bleeding statue, a destroyed world and renegade food sorta pales compared to that.

Two Thors banging hammers shook the universe, imagine if they got serious?

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Don't be dense man. That scan shows that the aftershocks of the struggle of two beings that have only fraction of the power of a full cube being were warping reality across dimensions.

Destroying things (as odin and seth did) is one thing, but granting sentience to non thinking lifeforms, and expanding a 2-D dimension into 3D implies complexity, not just force.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I find the Maker showing against Thanos as being very strange, because in the same comic it's stated by Thanos, iirc, that Maker still has the power of roll back the universe to the crunch or something like that. I was also under the impression that the only reason Thanos won was because of Maker's failing mental health.

++

The Makers failing mental status was the sole reason why Thanos was able to beat it; if the Beyonder personality was in control, then Thanos would have been annihilated...

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin/Seth shook the multiverse, destroyed galaxies and reignited long dead stars. It was stated on panel that all reality was in danger and dying.

So a blinded Watcher, a talking plant, a bleeding statue, a destroyed world and renegade food sorta pales compared to that.

Two Thors banging hammers shook the universe, imagine if they got serious?

Goes to show that some writers use hyperbole to the extreme; two high heralds shaking the universe!?

LoL...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Goes to show that some writers use hyperbole to the extreme; two high heralds shaking the universe!?

LoL...

Trust me LoM, I think it's moronic too but it's right there on panel. It was stated AND shown

Hence me not being impressed with the MM/Beyonder scan.

Originally posted by Galan007
To my knowledge it was a full-fledged universe.

Nah it was a pocket dimension. Lacks the cosmic hierarchy and structure of full fledged marvel universes.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
++

The Makers failing mental status was the sole reason why Thanos was able to beat it; if the Beyonder personality was in control, then Thanos would have been annihilated... False. Thanos beat her and actually could have physically killed her. Thanos easily defeated her with the powers she held making it an awesome feat.

Originally posted by quanchi112
False. Thanos beat her and actually could have physically killed her. Thanos easily defeated her with the powers she held making it an awesome feat.

Dude...

Thanos even commented on the Maker making itself vulnerable; that thing 1 shot Thanos in there 1st encounter and attacked far less forcibly when he 'beat' her (dont be a fool...compare the magnitude of that initial attack vs the others )...

The Maker actually beat itself due to only wielding a small fraction of its power and making itself vulnerable; again, if the Beyonders personality was in control it would have held back nothing and would have annihilated Thanos...

Stop riding Thanos's c**k...you know its true.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
++

The Makers failing mental status was the sole reason why Thanos was able to beat it; if the Beyonder personality was in control, then Thanos would have been annihilated...

Yeah, the Maker in no way compares to what we know a full powered version is capable of. It used only a tiny fraction of its true power in the fight and was deliberately mentally and physically weak in that form.

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin/Seth shook the multiverse, destroyed galaxies and reignited long dead stars. It was stated on panel that all reality was in danger and dying.

Beyonder and MM's fight trembled reality across space & TIME, from the Quantum to the TRANS-MULTIVERSAL. Same fight as the Odin and Seth fight.



Most mages in Marvel can't bring consciousness to non-sentient life forms nor cause forms in a 2D universe to take 3D form and beware aware of it. No skyfather has displayed this sort of feat either. And Loki with all his magic has never to my know done this sort of thing. This was a result of a battle, not even them trying these thing.

Here they fight on every planes of existence as well.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4533/ffann02752.th.jpghttp://img151.imageshack.us/img151/820/ffann02753.th.jpg



This shouldn't even be brought up. That's pure hyperbole because we all know Thor fight with Beta Ray Bill, or most in his tier, the majority of the time never destroy even a continent. Cosmic Cubes and Cube Beings themselves do insane feats on average. Even the Maker shrank people and koed Thanos. There's few instances where Thanos has been koed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nah it was a pocket dimension. Lacks the cosmic hierarchy and structure of full fledged marvel universes. I don't recall it ever being stated that Beyonder's creation was a "pocket dimension." In fact, even LT himself referred to it as a "universe" and "reality":
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2307/guardiansofthegalaxy502.jpg

No reason to assume it was anything less than what it was stated to be (SEVERAL times, mind you.)


Regarding the lack of a hierarchy: it was my understanding that Beyonder literally IS his universe -- he embodies every aspect of it:
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/3871/ff31916.jpg

ie. his universe is as he wills it to be. No hierarchy would be necessary.


Because of said omniscience/omnipotence, Beyonder (obviously) knows absolutely everything that can or will happen in his universe. The sense of always knowing the outcome of ALL made Beyonder a very bored fellow... That cosmic boredom is why he carried out his cross-multiversal tampering during the Protege affair:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2307/guardiansofthegalaxy502.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007


Regarding the lack of a hierarchy: it was my understanding that Beyonder literally IS his universe -- he embodies every aspect of it:
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/3871/ff31916.jpg

ie. his universe is as he wills it to be. No hierarchy would be necessary.



This is exactly my point.

The Beyonder who by canon is an incomplete cosmic cube, a being inferior to a single Celestial by several orders of magnitude created from his own energies a universe. Therefore it stands to reason that said universe is going to be significantly smaller in scale and complexity than one created naturally by the Big Bang.

I'll have to scroll through the handbooks to post a scan but there is a definition that pertains to a pocket universe being a dimension created outside the Big Bang, one smaller in scale that doesnt share the cosmic hierarchy of the mainstream realities.

all pocket dimensions have been refered to as universes atleast once.....

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is exactly my point.

The Beyonder who by canon is an incomplete cosmic cube, a being inferior to a single Celestial by several orders of magnitude created from his own energies a universe. Therefore it stands to reason that said universe is going to be significantly smaller in scale and complexity than one created naturally by the Big Bang.

I'll have to scroll through the handbooks to post a scan but there is a definition that pertains to a pocket universe being a dimension created outside the Big Bang, one smaller in scale that doesnt share the cosmic hierarchy of the mainstream realities. Until I see evidence that Beyonder's creation was a pocket dimension, then I will have to keep assuming that it is what it was stated to be -- a universe/reality.

Originally posted by Galan007
Until I see evidence that Beyonder's creation was a pocket dimension, then I will have to keep assuming that it is what it was stated to be -- a universe/reality.

Marvunapp calls the Beyond Realm a pocket realm:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kosmoscube.htm

It stands to reason Galan that a universe created by a "minor omnipotent" less powerful than a single Celestial is going to be less grand in scale than one created by the Big Bang.

^ Beyonder created his universe before he'd been retconned into a "minor omnipotent" -- and though Beyonder himself was downsized into a lesser being, that doesn't mean his universe also downsized by proxy. For instance, many of his high-end feats (such as eradicating the concept of Death) are still canon to this day.

So yeah... Suck it.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Beyonder created his universe before he'd been retconned into a "minor omnipotent" -- and though Beyonder himself was downsized into a lesser being, that doesn't mean his universe also downsized by proxy. For instance, many of his high-end feats (such as eradicating the concept of Death) are still canon to this day.

So yeah... Suck it.

You'd perhaps have an argument if his universe wasnt specifically singled out and referred to as a pocket realm. The creation of a universe is not one of the things left unaltered by his demotion.

Hes less powerful than the abstracts who are themselves just components of the standard mainstream realities so it stands to reason that a reality created by himself would be smaller in scale..."pocket"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Marvunapp calls the Beyond Realm a pocket realm:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kosmoscube.htm

It stands to reason Galan that a universe created by a "minor omnipotent" less powerful than a single Celestial is going to be less grand in scale than one created by the Big Bang.

lmao. That link isn't even accurate. That's his opinion of that matter. He references FF 319 and yet no where in it does it say pocket universe. Numerous times has it been mentioned as a universe and never a pocket dimension. GS failing again? Not surprising.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
lmao. That link isn't even accurate. That's his opinion of that matter. He references FF 319 and yet no where in it does it say pocket universe. Numerous times has it been mentioned as a universe and never a pocket dimension. I was thinking the same thing. Beyonder's universe isn't referred to as a pocket dimension in any of the issues referenced in that bio.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
lmao. That link isn't even accurate. That's his opinion of that matter. He references FF 319 and yet no where in it does it say pocket universe. Numerous times has it been mentioned as a universe and never a pocket dimension. GS failing again? Not surprising.

Failing? Never Queenie.

The marvunapp site is referenced in the official handbooks as a reliable source of marvel info.

It states that the Beyonders universe is a pocket realm.

Pocket realms are universes smaller in scale than mainstream ones. Not once did we see anything in that issue to indicate that it was anything near the scale of a mainstream reality.

Furthermore it is canon that the Beyonder is far less powerful than the likes of a celestial, or the abstracts therefore it stands to reason that if the abstracts themselves are just components of a standard reality, then any reality a "minor omnipotent" creates is going to be smaller in scale. A pocket universe as stated

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Beyonder and MM's fight trembled reality across space & TIME, from the Quantum to the TRANS-MULTIVERSAL. Same fight as the Odin and Seth fight.



Most mages in Marvel can't bring consciousness to non-sentient life forms nor cause forms in a 2D universe to take 3D form and beware aware of it. No skyfather has displayed this sort of feat either. And Loki with all his magic has never to my know done this sort of thing. This was a result of a battle, not even them trying these thing.

Except the Odin/Seth fight threatened all creation. It was stated on panel no less than three times. They weren't even trying to destroy all reality, it was just an after effect of their throw down.

So the after effect of two Cube Beings, known reality manipulators, throwing down caused some minor/moderate damage through various timelines isn't exactly to be unexpected.



Exactly like Aaron and Uatu when they fought. If two Watchers can, why not two Cube Beings?





But it wasn't hyperbole, it was shown on panel. I was arguing with RageofOlympus that there's no way this feat could be real. Not only did he provide scans, he said he also had scans of Thor having Multiverse level feats. I didn't even bother pressing him for the scans because I believed him.

So we have beings Thor's level affecting the universe (at least) without even trying.

Originally posted by quanchi112
False. Thanos beat her and actually could have physically killed her. Thanos easily defeated her with the powers she held making it an awesome feat.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Failing? Never Queenie.

The marvunapp site is referenced in the official handbooks as a reliable source of marvel info.

Hey fagg, he references FF319 right there, not any handbooks. Even his footer, he mentions only the actual books themselves that he's referencing. Heck, most references on this site comes from actual books and not handbooks. That's why his material is more detailed then any handbook.



It? Because "it" is an a book reference to prove your point. Why don't you just replace it with "shit' states that... same thing
And the Beyonders and the Beyonder are two different beings.



lol. There's nothing to say it's not a full universe. In fact, it's mention numerous times that it's a universe. There's no distinct made that it's any smaller. Even outside this book, it's been mention as a universe, not pocket universe as your deluded to believe.



Except that's what everyone is arguing about. Based on statements, the Cube Beings are weaker than the abstracts. In practice, the Cube Beings perform feats that surpass most abstracts, especially the Celestials. In the current GOTG, the Baddon enslaved at least a dozen Celestials with a cosmic cube to create their Celestial engine.

As is, there's nothing you provided to say that it was a pocket universe when every says it's just a universe. In fact, the Cubes get their powers from the True Beyonders' realm, not the 616. What they've done surpasses most abstracts in feat.

Originally posted by zopzop
Except the Odin/Seth fight threatened all creation. It was stated on panel no less than three times. They weren't even trying to destroy all reality, it was just an after effect of their throw down.

And do you really buy that? For insane feats performed by characters shaking the multiverse is up there. For actual gage of a character's power, it's not consistent. Surtur has given Odin better fights and yet it's never affected the multiverse. On average, Odin and his piers can wreck galaxies. Destroying all creation is nonsense because that fight didn't even register with any of the abstracts.



?That's one of the fights. The other one had Kubik smashing planets into the Beyonder and warping his entire universe. A Watcher went blind just because of the fight. And yes, they're reality manipulators on a higher tier than Odin or Seth.





You know that shaking the multiverse isn't actually destroying it right? And destroying creation, numerous times it's been brought up referencing beings for less in power than Odin. It's just to hype up the significance of the fight - hyperbole. Thor has displayed some crazy feats and so has every other hero. But you don't just use those high end feats to define a character. Ultron has never displayed feats like Thor but he's beaten him before. Between Thor, Odin, and Kubik, Thor might have universal/multiversal feats but the more credence is towards Odin and Kubik who's feats are consistent. With all of Thor's high end feats, any cubic or skyfather would stomp him. Rage was just making a point to you that low tiers have crazy feats too. But the point is how consistent are these feats for one to say he can repeated perform such a feat in battle - especially these Deux Machina feats.



That's great and so has Kyle. But Atrocitus or Sinestro would stalemate him at least or beat him. I'll bet you that there's more than 20 characters who've beaten Thor but has never had a universal level feat. In a fight between Thor and Kubik, Kubik would turn Thor into a frog or angry water or blast him to pieces. MM turned Ares into stone.

As the hierarchy right, the Celestials are deemed by Marvel to be above the Cube Beings.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Hey fagg, he references FF319 right there, not any handbooks. Even his footer, he mentions only the actual books themselves that he's referencing. Heck, most references on this site comes from actual books and not handbooks. That's why his material is more detailed then any handbook.

Surprise surprise. Yet another misinterpretation. Im not quite sure what you thought i said WitchQueen but my comment referred to the fact that marvunapp is an officially recognised source of marvel info. Your waffle is unnecessary.



Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

And the Beyonders and the Beyonder are two different beings.

I know this. Any opportunity to talk out your anus and make it look like you actually know something



Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
lol. There's nothing to say it's not a full universe. In fact, it's mention numerous times that it's a universe. There's no distinct made that it's any smaller. Even outside this book, it's been mention as a universe, not pocket universe as your deluded to believe.

Theres nothing to say its a full universe. Just reference to it being a dimension or a reality, however given it has no reality designation, given it was a reality created within the Negative Zone, given that it has no cosmic hierarchy and was created by a being less powerful than the abstracts who themselves are mere derivative of the Big Bang then its common sense that its not going to be on the same scale.

Find me a reality designation or lets have some hush


Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Except that's what everyone is arguing about. Based on statements, the Cube Beings are weaker than the abstracts. In practice, the Cube Beings perform feats that surpass most abstracts, especially the Celestials. In the current GOTG, the Baddon enslaved at least a dozen Celestials with a cosmic cube to create their Celestial engine.

and Thor beat Galactus in to retreat.

and Nightmare imprisoned Eternity

and Squirrel Girl took down Thanos.

All sound very impressive when not put in context.

Theres a difference between a cosmic cube and the Beyonder who has just half the power of a cosmic cube. Your reference is poorly made. Please try again

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
As is, there's nothing you provided to say that it was a pocket universe when every says it's just a universe. In fact, the Cubes get their powers from the True Beyonders' realm, not the 616. What they've done surpasses most abstracts in feat.

The issue states that the cube beings are far below the likes of the abstracts and we are also told in subsequent references that theyre far below a single Celestial. Therefore it stands to reason that any universe a cube being could create especially a cube being who wields just half a cube beings power is bound to be of a far smaller scale and complexity than a Big Bang spawned reality.

The True Beyonders Realm is also called a pocket realm.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Surprise surprise. Yet another misinterpretation. Im not quite sure what you thought i said WitchQueen but my comment referred to the fact that marvunapp is an officially recognised source of marvel info. Your waffle is unnecessary.

That means jack sh!t because it's still his opinion and he's merely referencing events from the actual book. It's not canon fagg.



lol. So you have actual quotes from the book that it's a pocket universe or just some guys opinion on the book?



It's been called a universe. Why should i try to prove it is when it says that it is a universe? If you want to claim it's a pocket universe, prove it with quotes from the book and not some guys opinion.



Get yourself an omniversal GPS and go find it yourself fagg.



What's this suppose to prove? What's the context behind universe? lmao



So your point is that he could only have enslaved half of those Celestials in GOTG? Well that's fine by me because that's what we're really debating here. Half a regular universe in size? Half a universe in size.



That's what we've all stated. The Celestials are said to be more powerful than the Cube Beings. But in terms of actual feats and not just statements made without actual backing, the Cube Beings are more powerful. Gawd, you're just trolling by this point.



Thanks for the non-reference and just talk out of that ass on your face.

I agree with WWK.

Beyonder's creation has been referred to as a universe dozens of times, throughout several different comics -- hell, even the comics that guy used for sources on marvunapp refer to it as a universe.

There's no reason to prove a negative. Unless SOLID on panel evidence can be posted which explicitly states Beyonder's creation was a pocket dimension, then there's no reason to assume it was anything less than what it was constantly referred to as: a universe.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And do you really buy that? For insane feats performed by characters shaking the multiverse is up there. For actual gage of a character's power, it's not consistent. Surtur has given Odin better fights and yet it's never affected the multiverse. On average, Odin and his piers can wreck galaxies. Destroying all creation is nonsense because that fight didn't even register with any of the abstracts.


You are using the EXACT same arguments I did when the Seth/Odin fight was brought up. But the fact remains, it's all there on panel. The multiverse shaking, the galaxy wrecking, the long dead star igniting, the "ALL reality in danger of being destroyed" garbage. The writer kept repeating the "ALL reality in danger of dying" part to make sure the readers got it.




In the Beyonder's "universe", which I'm skeptical of. An entire universe and all his worshipers were human beings on earth? Not buying it.





Thor, supposedly, has MULTIPLE feats that affected a universe on up. The hammer clanging one is just the first to come to mind. Let me see RageofOlympus and I can ask him to provide the multiversal feats.

And speaking of destruction feats, the ENTIRE cosmic hierarchy (Stranger, Eon, Galactus, two Celestials, Love, Hate, Order, Chaos, Kronos) blasted Thanos SIMULTANEOUSLY and only managed to destroy the solar system the fight took place in and 'many' solar systems in the immediate vicinity. Surtur, by himself, merely forging his sword destroyed an entire galaxy. Galaxy > "many" solar systems.




I mean I would hope so. It's only been mentioned multiple times by Cube Beings themselves. Yet the Celestials highest level feat I've seen was them flinging 3 or 4 worlds at Thanos during the IG saga. That's a far cry from Kubik ,supposedly, encapsulating and threatening to destroy an entire universe.

I mean we haven't even seen on panel feats like that from the LT or Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion. Maelstrom, who was considered an equal to Thanos with the IG, needed the Quantum bands + Cosmic Awareness + Anomaly's power (to designate a "center" of the universe or his plan would have failed) + his own kinetic energy manipulation powers to SLOWLY destroy a universe.

Originally posted by Galan007
There's no reason to prove a negative. Unless SOLID on panel evidence can be posted which explicitly states Beyonder's creation was a pocket dimension, then there's no reason to assume it was anything less than what it was constantly referred to as: a universe.

A "universe' with NO abstractions or alien life forms aside from those shown on it's version of Earth. A "universe" created by half a cube being whereas beings supposedly higher up on the cosmic food chain haven't been shown capable of creating a galaxy, let alone a universe. The Shaper of Worlds himself (a FULL cube being) only made a world using his own powers and even then needed the LT's permission to finalize it.

Actually, even if Beyonder universe might be a universe, just smaller than typical universe (or fas less energetic in any case ) without hierarchy and since he is incomplete cosmic cube, it's far less than typical universe, even if we accept it is a universe.
So, it doesn't matter much, is it pocket dimension or a universe, it's far less nonetheless.

Originally posted by zopzop
You are using the EXACT same arguments I did when the Seth/Odin fight was brought up. But the fact remains, it's all there on panel. The multiverse shaking, the galaxy wrecking, the long dead star igniting, the "ALL reality in danger of being destroyed" garbage. The writer kept repeating the "ALL reality in danger of dying" part to make sure the readers got it.

And in actual practice, Odin has died fighting Surtur and it never wrecked all reality. Odin's fight with Forsung was wrecking the cosmos but never wrecked all reailty/cosmos. Again great feat for him, but he never destroyed it. And most writers believe him to be at galaxy wrecking, not reality destroyer. He's never destroyed a reality. If you actual think he could've really destroyed a reality, you're not thinking straight. Just because something is on panel doesn't mean it's true. He never destroyed a reality and in truth him and his piers have never destroyed a reality. Hyperbole.



So because the writer or Beyonder chose to make his creations all human; it means it's not a full blown universe? In GOTG, he displayed that he could make aliens as well. I guess by your argument, he made his universe only aliens or aliens and humans it would mean it's a full blown universe? If it's just a pocket universe and has aliens and humans, it'd still be just a pocket universe. I understand your skepticism, but that's not solid proof that it's a pocket universe when everything stated by characters narration and referenced in GOTG that it was just a universe.



He can. But even he would admit that Thor would get stomped by a Cube Being because he knows the CC are consistently at that level while Thor isn't. Just because you have multiple feats of those doesn't mean much when you weigh it against the tons of appearances where he doesn't even come close to that level and the numbers of people without that kind of feat still managing to beaten him. Perrikus, Ulik, Hercules, Beta Ray Bill, Loki, Mangog, Kurse, etc.




? That's why you have to look at the character's history and power set to determine if such a feat is actually credible. So if you look at Thor's past battles, his rogues gallery, his powers set, who his parents are, and even his status as a hero, there's more instances where he never approach even planet wrecking level. Has Thor performed universal level feats? Yeah sure but that's not what his commonly displayed level.




And that's what everyone is just debating. By statement, the Celestials win. Actual performed feats, the CB. It's not like the two have actually fought and there was an outcome for us to go by.



LT is stated numerous times by different writers/characters of his place in the universe. His power set and position is guardian of the multiverse. He doesn't have that many feats because there's not that many appearances where he's needed. But the few appearances he does have, his universal feats are more credible than someone say Odin, Thor, Surtur, or Silver Surfer. Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion/Death have about as many stories as LT. How many stories can you really do that involves Oblivion? Not, much but they're still abstracts and thus you should weight them more than say Odin's feats. As for Maestrom, not sure what you're getting at this. Can you explain what your getting at. Thanks.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And in actual practice, Odin has died fighting Surtur and it never wrecked all reality. Odin's fight with Forsung was wrecking the cosmos but never wrecked all reailty/cosmos. Again great feat for him, but he never destroyed it. And most writers believe him to be at galaxy wrecking, not reality destroyer. He's never destroyed a reality. If you actual think he could've really destroyed a reality, you're not thinking straight. Just because something is on panel doesn't mean it's true. He never destroyed a reality and in truth him and his piers have never destroyed a reality. Hyperbole.

That's what I thought too, hyperbole. In fact if you check the threads RageofOlypmus and Dark Odin and I were going at it, with me arguing it's just hyperbole, for the exact same reasons you stated earlier : no cosmic too notice of it and Odin/Seth never displayed such power levels before. But I was told a) it's on panel and it was repeatedly stated that all creation was about to "die" plus the whole multiverse shaking, etc... and b) Odin and his opponents have a history of huge carnage like destroying galaxies without even trying.




Sorry I get distracted :P But the point I was trying to make is : an incomplete Cube Being created a universe with ease (while a complete Cube Being threatened to destroy it with ease) yet Maelstrom who was the equal to Thanos with the IG had to go through hell just to attempt to destroy the universe slowly by giant black hole. And we can all agree no cube being, complete or not, is a match for the IG like Maelstrom was.

Plus no abstract has ever been shown doing what Beyonder or Kubik have. They had 40+ years of history behind them (especially in the case of Eternity, Death, LT, Order, Chaos) and nothing remotely that impressive power wise from them.

It annoys me that HUMAN mutants like Franklin Richards, MJJ, Wanda Maximoff (assuming for the sake of argument her HOM feat is valid), and Jamie Braddock have feats dwarfing ANY abstract being in Marvel.



Again I agree. But when it's shown that he's done it more than a few times, it's a part of the character's history. So two Thor's shook the universe just by clanging hammers. Odin/Seth's throw down caused more collateral damage (and was potential more deadly) than the entire IG affair. Surtur displayed more destructive power output just by forging his sword than the entire Cosmic Hierarchy. If you've noticed most of the wank involves Thor/Odin/Asgard in some fashion.

I think the writers at Marvel need to stop, take a deep breath and start retconning some of these PIS/CIS feats like mad.




Yup I agree. And that's why it's so troubling that the Cube Being's statements about the Celestials don't match up to their on panel feats.

Originally posted by zopzop
That's what I thought too, hyperbole. In fact if you check the threads RageofOlypmus and Dark Odin and I were going at it, with me arguing it's just hyperbole, for the exact same reasons you stated earlier : no cosmic too notice of it and Odin/Seth never displayed such power levels before. But I was told a) it's on panel and it was repeatedly stated that all creation was about to "die" plus the whole multiverse shaking, etc... and b) Odin and his opponents have a history of huge carnage like destroying galaxies without even trying.




Sorry I get distracted :P But the point I was trying to make is : an incomplete Cube Being created a universe with ease (while a complete Cube Being threatened to destroy it with ease) yet Maelstrom who was the equal to Thanos with the IG had to go through hell just to attempt to destroy the universe slowly by giant black hole. And we can all agree no cube being, complete or not, is a match for the IG like Maelstrom was.

Plus no abstract has ever been shown doing what Beyonder or Kubik have. They had 40+ years of history behind them (especially in the case of Eternity, Death, LT, Order, Chaos) and nothing remotely that impressive power wise from them.

It annoys me that HUMAN mutants like Franklin Richards, MJJ, Wanda Maximoff (assuming for the sake of argument her HOM feat is valid), and Jamie Braddock have feats dwarfing ANY abstract being in Marvel.



Again I agree. But when it's shown that he's done it more than a few times, it's a part of the character's history. So two Thor's shook the universe just by clanging hammers. Odin/Seth's throw down caused more collateral damage (and was potential more deadly) than the entire IG affair. Surtur displayed more destructive power output just by forging his sword than the entire Cosmic Hierarchy. If you've noticed most of the wank involves Thor/Odin/Asgard in some fashion.

I think the writers at Marvel need to stop, take a deep breath and start retconning some of these PIS/CIS feats like mad.




Yup I agree. And that's why it's so troubling that the Cube Being's statements about the Celestials don't match up to their on panel feats.

I 100% agree with everything you posted...

God I wish I could run Marvel (and DC too) as I would be handing out retcons like government cheese...

Originally posted by zopzop
That's what I thought too, hyperbole. In fact if you check the threads RageofOlypmus and Dark Odin and I were going at it, with me arguing it's just hyperbole, for the exact same reasons you stated earlier : no cosmic too notice of it and Odin/Seth never displayed such power levels before. But I was told a) it's on panel and it was repeatedly stated that all creation was about to "die" plus the whole multiverse shaking, etc... and b) Odin and his opponents have a history of huge carnage like destroying galaxies without even trying.

I think they just want to use that to show you Odin is a galaxy buster. I doubt they both believe he could destroy a reality. There point was to prove that Odin is can at least wreck a galaxy. Other than that, you shouldn't take those destroying reality likely with skyfather level beings.



Maelstrom had Anomaly's status and survived one attack then left. He was powerful but he didn't display power on the level of the IG. Mephisto and even Dr Doom survived a blast. Not saying it's not impressive but then Maelstrom couldn't simply wish things into existence or move about time. He had a hard time because he possessed cosmic awareness and some kind of power up with Anomaly's power and that's it. I don't see how he's on the same level as a weapon that merge two universe into one in moments. He also had trouble with Quasar.

The CC on the other hand is a questionable. It's power doesn't come from the 616 but another realm. Even Mephisto says that an unrestricted CC is as powerful as the IG. Not saying that's entirely true but CC beings should not be lumped in with the other abstracts. I don't take the idea all abstracts are more powerful than CC, certainly not Anomaly.



True. But that's how things are I guess. A lot of more powerful characters are never shown to do what mainstream heroes do.



I agree with you here. Apparently beings born on Earth can have powers that allow them to warp beyond the planet of their birth and crush the very stars but some how it's beyond Eternity to exceed the power of a universe. MJJ can reality warp on a omniversal level and therefore Eternity would lose because Eternity is just a universe within the Omniverse. WTF? So MJJ can bend reality beyond that of the abstraction of a universe's own ability? You would think that being the universe, being the sum of all, Eternity would have more control than MJJ. But that's not what posters will tell u.



Yeah but not every one puts them at that level of reality destroyers. Just because they have been, it doesn't mean they are the majority of the times. Just because some writers wrote them that way should put their opinions above those who write Thor as planetary. Having high end feats are common with reoccurring/favorite characters but that will never take away the fact that most of the time writers have them beaten down by metas that have never come close to shattering a planet.



Well that's part of the business I guess. Those feats back then are like feats from Rulk or Sentry. Apparently absurdly stupid feats sell books or something because it still continues to this day.




They've backed themselves into a corner. By this point, skyfathers can wreck galaxies while Galactus would need to destroy a universe or universes for things to make sense. And Eternity would be destroying the Omniverse....oh wait, MJJ and Wanda can do that. Lol. So how are the abstracts regarded as of any significance now?