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why? i ask you why you hate the prequel trilogy? oh jar jar binks, oh goerge lucas forgot loads of things STFU! you say your star wars fans and then go on to say oh god the prequel trilogy what a joke...its not a joke. the prequel trilogy is important. it fills in the secrets to the saga. its like a jigsaw puzzle. please tell me why you hate the prequel trilogy and ill tell you why i think your a moron. attack of the clones: that film was bad loads of plot holes i didnt get it....what are you a retard! just please if you say your a big star wars fan but hate the prequels then please leave. go like something else. you cant like one part of something but really hate the other. john williams music i the good part of the prequels....no its not. its a part of it. the good part to me was the lightsabre fights and the action scenes. the love scenes were the worst...what would you prefer? twilight? didnt think so. also some of you abuse george lucas....well he made star wars , your faveourite film series....id understand if you preferred the orignal trilogy but some comments ive seen about the prequel trilogy just pissed me off.

Jar Jar wasn't a deal breaker...that I agree with, but you have to look at both ends of the spectrum here.

The "I saw the OT in the theaters when I was a teenager" fan base obviously approached TPM in the sense that they were expecting the same experience they had during the first batch of films...and who can blame them? However, as I've said many a times, Lucasfilm knew their target audience....and it was the younger generation. In the 90's, who was watching Star Wars? It was the children who'd had these films passed down by their parents...begging them for a hasbro Lightsaber from Walmart and all the other merchandise.

Think about it...entire isles in stores are dedicated only to Star Wars. Unless your an adult collecting these things, all these isles and merchandising is targeted toward kids. No matter what people thought of Jar Jar and the PT, those films brought about their own success...and it's not slowing down anytime soon. On the other hand, the older original fanbase will view this as "Star Wars selling out"...and again, you can't blame them.

This is a biggie, and you have to think carefully about it, but in order to attribute the success of the OT compared to people's disappointment with the PT, you have to be able to recognize one very big important factor, and that's "time period." People weren't drawn to ANH or ESB because it had the label "Star Wars" on it, they were drawn to it because of the fact that these films, it's effects and the magnitude of it's production were so far ahead of it's time period.

With the release of the PT...those films, unlike the originals, were not ahead of it's time. It used CG and special effects that were on par with every other film in Hollywood, which gave it a cheaper effect to the mass audience, rather than that "incredible experience" found with the OT because there were unlike no other films at it's time.

Also...take ANH...it's time period, and say those films never existed back then, and today, you take the same script that ANH had and make the same movie....do you think it would become a classic? Nope...in fact, producers would likely say "this belongs on the SyFy channel along with Stargate." Ever watch reruns on TV of the old Star Trek with William Shatner? Yeah, they're classic's and fun to watch for one reason only, you can associate it's production value within it's time peroid. Same thing with the Three Stooges...it's cast, production value and comedy were ahead of it's time, which is why today, you couldn't reboot or redo that series no matter what you do, beause it will always be compared to the original classics and will never live up to them. You could remake the Wizard of Oz using real sets instead of "painted backdrops" and guess what...it won't live up to the original because of it's generation and the fact that you accept that film, it's style and production as part of that time period.

Sorry for the double post, but to further elaborate...people fail to realize another important factor...the fact that movies were made and created for entertainment purposes. People are not forced to spend money on a film or franchise if they don't like it. That's a choice that they alone make.

I firmly expect that people who disliked TPM, AOTC and ROTS, didn't spend their hard earned money and purchase the films on DVD. Again...if you don't like something, you wouldn't spend money on it, so I would associate the same to be true with Star Wars...rather then other people being a hypocritical statistic in giving the big bad greedy money hungry Lucas "more money."

But anyway, movies were made to entertain people. Not every movie will do that, but most movies fail to write it's place in history.
And think about it, The PT has most certaintly done that with countless message forums in which people like us have dedicaetd a good chunk of our lives being part of the community we claim to be so disappointed with. That's why I firmly believe, even if you didn't like the PT as much as the OT...a part of you liked it enough to be here.

Poorly-written, CGI-dependent crap focusing more on "whoo that looks neat" than an actual story.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Poorly-written, CGI-dependent crap focusing more on "whoo that looks neat" than an actual story. LOL and you like star wars yes? Well you sir are a moron I don't know what film you were watching but it wasn't star wars....so you'd prefer if they had no cgi whatsoever.... Well it would of failed then. The story is that senator palpatine secretly darth sidious attacks naboo so he can get elected to chancellor (he's from naboo) now after he takes on count dooku as an apprentice but he wants anakin. Dooku and maul were merely pawns. He gets dooku to find a template for a clone army so he can start a war to stay in office after his term is up. He secretly puts codes in there heads so he can wipeout the jedi. He manages to turn anakin and there is a very emotional fight between obi wan and anakin. Anakin joined the dark side to save his wife. After having a tragic loss(his mother) and slaughtering tusken raiders he snaps. He chokes padme because palps knows he'll do something like that. Padme is pregnant and anakin wants to be with them both. I'm 15 years old and have loved star wars since '97 My life revolves around star wars. I bet adults said the same thing about the OT wen it was first released. Please don't ruin it for the new generation of star wars fans. It's to be shown as the parents passing down the torch, or lightsabre, to there kids. George Lucas puts his own time into these films for us.

It certainly must be said that George fumbled the ball at several critical moments in the PT and many of the criticisms found in RedLetterMedia's Youtube phenomenon are valid.

With that said, the OT certainly had its fair share of faults and silly plot gimmicks, and I commend George for wanting to tell a more complex and elaborate story in the PT than in the OT.

I love both, but I prefer the PT for its story and the OT for its execution.

The OT is a struggle to defeat a evil empire where as the PT is a tragedy sort of film I.e the fall of anakin

Star wars changed my life when I first saw episode IV on VHS in 1997 and it blew me away when I saw episode I in 1999 on my birthday

In the cinema lol forgot to write that

Retarded fanboyism and a wall of text all in one.

Troll

So ure not a star wars fan why come on here ??

I think that one of the points he was trying to make was the fact that your grammar usage, lack of capitalization & punctuation, and just in general typing out what "looks" like a big run on sentence was annoying to him. Having been a high school English teacher, I see where he's coming from.

People always go to forums and want to make their case in favor of something they like/support which is very cool, but when they present their cases in such glaringly bad usage of the written word, they lose a ton of credibility.

Food for thought next time perhaps?

Or maybe Im on an iPod?

Star wars owns wether it be the OT or the PT if you don't like it get lost case closed

Originally posted by InfernoJG95
Or maybe Im on an iPod?

That would make you lazy. I post all the time from my phone and somehow I manage to use punctuation, imagine that.

And for the record little man, I saw Star Wars in 1977, in the theater, before you were even a twinkle in your daddy's eye, so I've been a hard core fan for far longer than you. I dont hate the prequels at all, but I do recognize that they weren't nearly as good as they should have been.

I loved darth maul and revenge of the sith, personally.

Originally posted by InfernoJG95
Star wars owns wether it be the OT or the PT if you don't like it get lost case closed
Rofl.

Originally posted by InfernoJG95
why? i ask you why you hate the prequel trilogy? oh jar jar binks, oh goerge lucas forgot loads of things STFU! you say your star wars fans and then go on to say oh god the prequel trilogy what a joke...its not a joke. the prequel trilogy is important. it fills in the secrets to the saga. its like a jigsaw puzzle. please tell me why you hate the prequel trilogy and ill tell you why i think your a moron. attack of the clones: that film was bad loads of plot holes i didnt get it....what are you a retard! just please if you say your a big star wars fan but hate the prequels then please leave. go like something else. you cant like one part of something but really hate the other. john williams music i the good part of the prequels....no its not. its a part of it. the good part to me was the lightsabre fights and the action scenes. the love scenes were the worst...what would you prefer? twilight? didnt think so. also some of you abuse george lucas....well he made star wars , your faveourite film series....id understand if you preferred the orignal trilogy but some comments ive seen about the prequel trilogy just pissed me off.

I didn't like ROTS because the actor who played Anekin made him into a whiner. I like the clone war for the opposite reason; it makes Anekin into a reckless Jedi who later became Darth Vader.

I liked Jar Jar, but the idea of a virgin birth, just made me shutter.

Attack of the clones was my favorite of the three.

Ummm I'm a hardcore star wars fan allright ask anyone I know....I get picked on at school loads for it so I should no how much I love it. It changed my life since I saw episode IV. It doesn't matter how long you've been a fan or how much you know: I know alot aswell: it's how much you love it. JP if your gay comment is to stop me loving star wars I'm pissed off. I love star wars. I don't care if I never got to see it in 1977. I got to experiance the PT in the cinema. And with star wars in 3D coming up I'll finally get to experiance the originals. I'll never stop loving star wars. It's my favourite thing in the world

Seriously what are you smoking? I have ZERO issue with you being a Star Wars fan. Good for you, the more the merrier. My issue is with the way you frame your responses making you and your arguments seem juvenile, hence you lose all credibility. Lighten up. People can be fans of the movies or the franchise for that matter and not be blindly in love with every facet of it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I didn't like ROTS because the actor who played Anekin made him into a whiner. I like the clone war for the opposite reason; it makes Anekin into a reckless Jedi who later became Darth Vader.

I liked Jar Jar, but the idea of a virgin birth, just made me shutter.

Attack of the clones was my favorite of the three.

you had me up until that last line. damn you.

Originally posted by ~JP~
Seriously what are you smoking? I have ZERO issue with you being a Star Wars fan. Good for you, the more the merrier. My issue is with the way you frame your responses making you and your arguments seem juvenile, hence you lose all credibility. Lighten up. People can be fans of the movies or the franchise for that matter and not be blindly in love with every facet of it. I have no idea about your critique of this poster but I do agree if you're a fan of something you don't need to love every facet of it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
you had me up until that last line. damn you.

JP had me at hello.

And I always will baby! naughty

Originally posted by -Pr-
you had me up until that last line. damn you.

Sorry, but I liked AOTC too...way better than I'll ever like Return of the Jedi or The Phantom Menace. It's 2nd on my list, only to ROTS.

Yeah, AOTC is way too cheesy and too much Sci-Fi bubble gum...but that's what Lucas does best...have fun with his films and in a strange way, it worked for me. The film actually had a story and to those that say it didn't, we're obviously not watching the same movie. It's the story of struggling between living an honest life, or giving into your attachments. Even if the plot was basic, every now and then I enjoy a film that is easy to follow and doesn't fry my brain in the process with too much sophistication and boring crap like most Hollywood film critics like.

If you think about it, the entire Prequel trilogy is one gigantic story of attachment. TPM has Anakin leaving his attachment to persue his dream....AOTC he finds out he can't pursue his dreams without holding on to his attachements...and in ROTS...his attachment to Padme is his inevitable downfall. There are flaws in the story and the way it was executed yes, but when you look at it as a whole and reflect on the message behind each film, it all echoed back to Anakin and his attachments.

It's a tragedy film cause of anakin turning to the darkside

That what it was supposed to be, yes.

AOTC is obsolete.

I don't mind the PT even though there are some loop holes in it, but I do prefer the OT...the story for me was much more powerful...the PT was about a whiny little boy who wanted to save his peedo girlfriend so he helped kill younglings and other jedi for some pervert emperor.

I loved the prequel trilogy, the phantom menace is my favorite right after empire, and i grew up with the originals. I went into the movie with the same mind frame as when i saw the originals, to be entertained. The only thing for me that Lucas could of done different would of been to keep darth maul all the way to the begining of ROTS instead of using dooku. People say the PT is full of holes well so is the OT. Luke trains for a week or so and can go up against vader?? In ANH if the star destroyer can tell there are no life signs on the escape pod then how come they have to bring a scanning crew aboard the falcon on the star destroyer? the films are great regardless and will be timeless for all 6 of them.

I blame the "blankie syndrome" on that hate for the PT. What do I mean by "blankie syndrome"? I mean that these people have attachments to their "blankie" and cannot give it up. Some children will not let go of a small blanket that they've had while growing up and it is near impossible to get them to let go of it. The OT is their "blankie". They have gone as far as to try and justify their positions in elaborate manners rather than just giving up their "blankies." Now, this is not to say that everyone in this thread fits that category: some of you have legitimate complaints about the PT, and such. However, I notice a lot of Star Wars blankie syndrome on KMC and it annoys me, but I am happy to say that there are several of you that like the PT better than the OT.

Not matter what GL did, OT fanboys would have hated the PT. There was nothing to avoid that.

Fact is, the PT is better in almost every single facet.

Better acting.
Better effects.
Better story.
Better characters.
Better cinematography.
Better fantasy elements.
Better movie score.
Better sound and sound effects.
Ground breaking effects has to go to the OT, hands down.
Wow factor, however, has to go to the PT, easily.

Any time I hear some fanboy say that the OT acting is better than the PT, I just remind them of Luke Skywalker and/or link them to Luke's whine fest against Vader in ESB: quite shitty acting and it should make any normal person laugh.

Hayden was whiny?

Ha!

Hamil was much whinier in the first two OT films.

There was no ground breaking efforts in the PT? Sure, maybe if we are speaking only about RoTS, but the fact is, Lucas and his team made leaps of CGI progress in TPM. They made even more progress in AoTC. The kept that advances from AoTC and used that in RotS. If some were as big of "Star Wars" fans as they profess, they would know that.




That said, I still think both the OT and PT are some of the best movies of all time. All 6 of them go in my top 20. I love them shits really really badly.



Edit - Side note, I've gotta give props to my boy, darthmaul1, for approaching the PT movies with an open mind and judging the films exactly for what they were: excellent films. I wish every Star Wars fanboy approached the PT like that: we might have had much better Star Wars goodness than what we have now but the haters may have prevented us from getting anymore films. GL was thinking about doing episodes 7, 8, and 9, when he was working on TPM...but he changed his mind somwhere between AoTC and RotS. If he had gotten almost universal praise, his distaste for all of that hard work might have been outweighed by the love he got. Just saying that you haters may have prevented the best episodes from being made into GL-level quality of films. For that, I hate you. (not really, I still love you guys.)

Originally posted by dadudemon
I blame the "blankie syndrome" on that hate for the PT. What do I mean by "blankie syndrome"? I mean that these people have attachments to their "blankie" and cannot give it up. Some children will not let go of a small blanket that they've had while growing up and it is near impossible to get them to let go of it. The OT is their "blankie". They have gone as far as to try and justify their positions in elaborate manners rather than just giving up their "blankies." Now, this is not to say that everyone in this thread fits that category: some of you have legitimate complaints about the PT, and such. However, I notice a lot of Star Wars blankie syndrome on KMC and it annoys me, but I am happy to say that there are several of you that like the PT better than the OT.

Not matter what GL did, OT fanboys would have hated the PT. There was nothing to avoid that.

Fact is, the PT is better in almost every single facet.

Better acting.
Better effects.
Better story.
Better characters.
Better cinematography.
Better fantasy elements.
Better movie score.
Better sound and sound effects.
Ground breaking effects has to go to the OT, hands down.
Wow factor, however, has to go to the PT, easily.

Any time I hear some fanboy say that the OT acting is better than the PT, I just remind them of Luke Skywalker and/or link them to Luke's whine fest against Vader in ESB: quite shitty acting and it should make any normal person laugh.

Hayden was whiny?

Ha!

Hamil was much whinier in the first two OT films.

There was no ground breaking efforts in the PT? Sure, maybe if we are speaking only about RoTS, but the fact is, Lucas and his team made leaps of CGI progress in TPM. They made even more progress in AoTC. The kept that advances from AoTC and used that in RotS. If some were as big of "Star Wars" fans as they profess, they would know that.




That said, I still think both the OT and PT are some of the best movies of all time. All 6 of them go in my top 20. I love them shits really really badly.



Edit - Side note, I've gotta give props to my boy, darthmaul1, for approaching the PT movies with an open mind and judging the films exactly for what they were: excellent films. I wish every Star Wars fanboy approached the PT like that: we might have had much better Star Wars goodness than what we have now but the haters may have prevented us from getting anymore films. GL was thinking about doing episodes 7, 8, and 9, when he was working on TPM...but he changed his mind somwhere between AoTC and RotS. If he had gotten almost universal praise, his distaste for all of that hard work might have been outweighed by the love he got. Just saying that you haters may have prevented the best episodes from being made into GL-level quality of films. For that, I hate you. (not really, I still love you guys.)

Great response!!
Awww Thanks. for the props
IMO The PT followed the same formula as the OT in the way the story was presented and told. with regards to Jar Jar, was he annoying, yes to a certain extent but there again so were the ewoks, and people have to look at what they are there for, comedy and for the kids.
I still think the clone troopers in ATOC and ROTS look great and it's extremely difficult to tell they are CGI. Until i saw the behind the scenes i didn't know. Makes me think of AVATAR and how cameron had to wait for the tech to catch up? he could of done that move 10 years ago, and IMO the Clones and Gungans look better than the Na'vi.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I blame the "blankie syndrome" on that hate for the PT. What do I mean by "blankie syndrome"? I mean that these people have attachments to their "blankie" and cannot give it up. Some children will not let go of a small blanket that they've had while growing up and it is near impossible to get them to let go of it. The OT is their "blankie". They have gone as far as to try and justify their positions in elaborate manners rather than just giving up their "blankies." Now, this is not to say that everyone in this thread fits that category: some of you have legitimate complaints about the PT, and such. However, I notice a lot of Star Wars blankie syndrome on KMC and it annoys me, but I am happy to say that there are several of you that like the PT better than the OT.

Not matter what GL did, OT fanboys would have hated the PT. There was nothing to avoid that.

Fact is, the PT is better in almost every single facet.

Better acting.
Better effects.
Better story.
Better characters.
Better cinematography.
Better fantasy elements.
Better movie score.
Better sound and sound effects.
Ground breaking effects has to go to the OT, hands down.
Wow factor, however, has to go to the PT, easily.

Any time I hear some fanboy say that the OT acting is better than the PT, I just remind them of Luke Skywalker and/or link them to Luke's whine fest against Vader in ESB: quite shitty acting and it should make any normal person laugh.

Hayden was whiny?

Ha!

Hamil was much whinier in the first two OT films.

There was no ground breaking efforts in the PT? Sure, maybe if we are speaking only about RoTS, but the fact is, Lucas and his team made leaps of CGI progress in TPM. They made even more progress in AoTC. The kept that advances from AoTC and used that in RotS. If some were as big of "Star Wars" fans as they profess, they would know that.




That said, I still think both the OT and PT are some of the best movies of all time. All 6 of them go in my top 20. I love them shits really really badly.



Edit - Side note, I've gotta give props to my boy, darthmaul1, for approaching the PT movies with an open mind and judging the films exactly for what they were: excellent films. I wish every Star Wars fanboy approached the PT like that: we might have had much better Star Wars goodness than what we have now but the haters may have prevented us from getting anymore films. GL was thinking about doing episodes 7, 8, and 9, when he was working on TPM...but he changed his mind somwhere between AoTC and RotS. If he had gotten almost universal praise, his distaste for all of that hard work might have been outweighed by the love he got. Just saying that you haters may have prevented the best episodes from being made into GL-level quality of films. For that, I hate you. (not really, I still love you guys.)

Better effects don't count in this situation, of course the effects were better...these movies were made later on. If the OT had been made AFTER the PT then the graphics would be amazing...heck they'd probably be avatar like graphics.

Originally posted by steverules_2
Better effects don't count in this situation, of course the effects were better...these movies were made later on. If the OT had been made AFTER the PT then the graphics would be amazing...heck they'd probably be avatar like graphics.

It certainly does count because they are saying the OT is better than the PT. Part of the large attraction to Star Wars was the tech and the effects. To overlook the SFX is to not really appreciate what Star Wars is intended to be: an fun sci-fi adventure with second to none SFX.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Great response!!
Awww Thanks. for the props
IMO The PT followed the same formula as the OT in the way the story was presented and told. with regards to Jar Jar, was he annoying, yes to a certain extent but there again so were the ewoks, and people have to look at what they are there for, comedy and for the kids.
I still think the clone troopers in ATOC and ROTS look great and it's extremely difficult to tell they are CGI. Until i saw the behind the scenes i didn't know. Makes me think of AVATAR and how cameron had to wait for the tech to catch up? he could of done that move 10 years ago, and IMO the Clones and Gungans look better than the Na'vi.

You bet. You get flack from others but you certainly approach shit with an open mind.

Also, yes, I think we could have done the Na'vi with technology from 10 years ago, but it would have taken much much longer to render. That was part of Cameron's deal: he waited until it was financially feasible. Even then, it took a while to complete.

And, yeah, I did not realize that they were CGI: i thought they were real until I watched the "making of" stuff. Just amazing. Lighting, fog, reflection, surface textures. Just amazing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It certainly does count because they are saying the OT is better than the PT. Part of the large attraction to Star Wars was the tech and the effects. To overlook the SFX is to not really appreciate what Star Wars is intended to be: an fun sci-fi adventure with second to none SFX.


I guess I can't expect little kids to understand that better effects were around in the 70's/80's glare

I dont hate the PT its just that it could have been made better. Even EP 3 is not as good becouse everything is happning too fast (Anakin's turn to the dark side)

The script was weak and could have been better there was too much focus on CGI and not much on the storyline by Lucus.

Originally posted by steverules_2
I guess I can't expect little kids to understand that better effects were around in the 70's/80's glare

exsqueeze me, baking powder?? That depends on the movie. There were more models and live explosions in the OT no CGI, but even in the PT they still used some models and pyrotechnics. The super star destroyer hitting the 2nd death star looked soooo cool, NOT!
that would be one effect i would redo cause when it hits and blows up you can see the matt lines clear as day. Even look at the first terminator some of the effects in there are very crappy compared to today. there are very few movies that can with stand the test of time, the OT with some exceptions is one of them.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Even look at the first terminator some of the effects in there are very crappy compared to today.

They're like some of Ray Harryhausen's stuff.

Originally posted by InfernoJG95
Ummm I'm a hardcore star wars fan allright ask anyone I know....I get picked on at school loads for it so I should no how much I love it. It changed my life since I saw episode IV. It doesn't matter how long you've been a fan or how much you know: I know alot aswell: it's how much you love it. JP if your gay comment is to stop me loving star wars I'm pissed off. I love star wars. I don't care if I never got to see it in 1977. I got to experiance the PT in the cinema. And with star wars in 3D coming up I'll finally get to experiance the originals. I'll never stop loving star wars. It's my favourite thing in the world


There's more to life then star wars son

.....

Originally posted by coolmovies
There's more to life then star wars son

You're his father? ha-son

no....thats not true...thts impossible!!!!

Search your feelings you know it to be true!!

Uhh k then dad can I go out I got a date with this girl

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Speaking of prequel haters, everyone's favorite reviewer, Plinkett, has now dismembered Episode III.

Didn't he like... do that ages ago?

didnt he get killed in black ops by jar jar binks?

Hehehe

Why I hate the prequels? Three words:

RedLetterMedia.

People will always hate the PT so long as they compare them to the OT, which is a reflection of the golden era of the late 70's-early 80's where the world was a different place and the world was captivated by a new movie-going experience they had never witnessed before.

Beause the PT came out 16 years later, that gave people enough time to create SW in their own minds and what this universe practically meant to them. Therefore, not only did the PT have to compete with the original films, they had to compete with everyone's "own sky high vision" of what Star Wars was....and of course, they would never live up to anyone's expectations.

I say this because I'm so sick of people complaining about things in the PT that were equally as obvious in the OT. The OT is great, but almost everything I hear about the PT..."clunky dialogue, wooden acting, special fx..." can be found in the OT as well. But again, the OT was made in a completely different generation. For example...stop for a moment and think just about how "cheesy looking" the whole Cantina scene is in a New Hope with all those rubber looking alien mask that you can clearly tell is a being worn by a human being underneath it. It's awful...even the music is chessy. However, it's also a "nostalgic" memory of what the late 70's sci-fi was like. It was completely new, and it worked back then. In a movie like Attack of the Clones when Anakin and Obi-Wan enter the nightclub...well, now it just seems too corny for a movie made in 2002. Why? Because it's not 1977 anymore, and this is what the audience forgets. The prequels aren't going to behave or have the same cheesy charisma that was a reflection of technology back in the late 70's, early 80's. No matter what Star Wars film is made and who makes it, you know darn well they would never live up to the vision people had imprinted into their minds, not even if the PT were directed by Speilberg or Cameron. Because of that, everyone picks apart the PT's flaws, rather than acknowledge all the things that were good about them...and when people make ridiculous comments like "nothing was good about them" it just proves how ignorant and shallow movie goers can be.

At the end of the day, these are movies made for the price of an admission ticket...and directors like Lucas don't wake up one morning and decide to spend the next 9 years working 19 hour days with the sole intention of ruining every fanboys life. We, as an audience, ruin these movies for ourselves by overlooking the strengths and pointing out every weakness we can find because our lives weren't changed by a set of 3 new movies.

And just to further elaborate...the OT took full and complete advantage of the technology that existed in it's time. No one complained about it.
And because animation practically didn't exist back then, Yoda was a puppet who actually looked like a crack smoking Sesame Street reject...however...people still accepted it and didn't care.

The PT did exactly the same thing by taking advantage of the technology of this era...so we can't put the PT down because of that. When we saw Yoda as a puppet in TPM...let's face it...it didn't look good. Yoda being animated was not Lucas' attempt to let the audience freak out over nothing...it was his attempt at trying to make Yoda a more flexible character with facial movement, rather than being stiff like a card board box in which you couldn't tell whether what he was thinking other than by listenting to his voice. Whether the audience likes it or not, it was an honest attempt, and not a "Oh Geroge Lucas is fat" sort of thing. Yet, the ignorant movie goer will pass this off as "Lucas being lazy." It takes more time to animate Yoda then it does having him be a puppet. It takes more time to model, texturize, light, animate, and render a space ship then it does to use a model of a spaceship. Not to mention the 3D environments, landscapes...no one even begins to realize the amount of work that goes into this stuff. There's a reason why it takes 3 years of nonstop work to complete these films.

Face it, no one would be happy regardless of what they did. If they eased up on the CGI and film on actual locations that look dull an uninteresting, or used models to do space battles...people would then complain by saying "Now, one would wonder why in this modern day and age, that the Star Wars prequels didn't take full advantage of the technology of this era. It could have been spectacular." But the movies did just as they did with the 0T...it took full advantage of the technology. Sure, they were more limited back then, but for what they were allowed, the took full advantage of it, so we can't knock the PT down for doing the only thing it would logically do.

Story problems with the PT...yeah sure. They're nothing overly elaborate, but neither were the OT for that matter. The plots were very basic in the old ones too, and practically the only compelling plot point that happens in Empire is finding out that Luke is Vader's son. Other than that, the movie really has a beginning but no end. The one thing Empire succeded with was "tone." It had a consistent feel and a dark atmosphere that made it feel more mature, but that's all I give it. Return of the Jedi has ewoks....I rest my case.

Point is though... and I think Plinkett did point that out very well IMHO, the PT is often wooden and boring. The whole shot analysis he does on the PT (sitting on a couch and talk, walk and talk, Wide shot - close shot - reverse shot - turn to window - turn back), that actually goes well beyond the exterior debates of effects and dialogue. It;s about emotion. And frankly, the OT did very well there. The comparison he makes between the boring convo scenes in the PT and the much more dynamic talking scenes in the OT strike at the heart of the problem. Lucas is not a great storyteller, but he has great ideas. During the OT he apparantly gave room for people to do something with his ideas. Ford, Hamill and Fisher worked their butts off to make something of Lucas' mediocre writing. Kershner and Marquand added their bits. But it;s clear Lucas was in full control this time and made it like this... Even in his acting directing, he just tells the actors how the intonation should be, how they should stand... They just do as they are told.... And it's frigging boring. The same with his blocking and framing... it's stale and boring. And mostly: emotionless or at least not very credible.

So tehre is a clear difference.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Face it, no one would be happy regardless of what they did. If they eased up on the CGI and film on actual locations that look dull an uninteresting, or used models to do space battles...people would then complain by saying "Now, one would wonder why in this modern day and age, that the Star Wars prequels didn't take full advantage of the technology of this era. It could have been spectacular." But the movies did just as they did with the 0T...it took full advantage of the technology. Sure, they were more limited back then, but for what they were allowed, the took full advantage of it, so we can't knock the PT down for doing the only thing it would logically do.




I hardly think people would complain because then it would fit with the OT and 'connect' the movies better visually. It takes time? Costs too much to film on location? Worthless excuses for I imagine Lucas would have had the funds and backing to get the best real environments and models. Lucas only took advantage of the technology he had at the time to do the OT because it was the ONLY way he could do the films. With the PT he didn't even bother to consider other ways and his only solution to a problem was just to CGI it instead of letting model/enviroment artists create the world for the actors to be in.

In the PT the actors never feel like they are anywhere at all, probably because they aren't. They enter CGI enviroments and don't react to heat, cold, wind, the sun in their eyes and other such stimuli because it's impossible for them to do so. When they did film on location in the PT the scenes were stronger, you felt they were somewhere, rather than in constricted environments with CGI filling in the rest.

The scene that best reflects my point is the lightsaber battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan. They are jumping around a large river of molten lava and there is no reaction to the danger of the situation, no reaction the unbearable heat they'd be feeling. In Terminator 2 in the end scene they do this better, they are arriving at the steel mill and they are sweating, reacting to the heat, the smoke and the conditions around them. This is primarily because they are on a set, they are told that that orange liquid over there is hot, they can see the steam and sparks introduced into the scene and it helps them react. In Terminator 1 at the end scene it's very similar, you can feel the reactions to the model of the Terminator, Sarah Connor's fear and desperation, Reese's anger and bravado, all because the actors can react to the 'real' danger in their own enviroment.

This is a reply to all the previous long posts.
Sith master x I agree with everything you said. Well put. Except for puppet yoda. I thought OT yoda looked really good where they screwed up was with PT puppet yoda, he didn't look right but when they cgi him he looked great.
For the other posters The lay out of the stories for PT and OT are exactly the same. And George can't direct or is not a good story teller?? It's all his story and idea and he had input in all the films. and as for the PT being boring. I will grant you that ep1 had some boring parts and was not as exciting as ep4 but this is why Lucas started with ep4 cause it was a more exciting story and brought the viewer in. Had he started with ep1 it wouldn't of drawn people in and would of been harder to do with the technology at the time.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
For the other posters The lay out of the stories for PT and OT are exactly the same.

No way is this true. The PT is confused with several subplots working at the same time to no great effect. No one subplot within the PT reaches a level of great importance and they all vy for attention at the same time.

The OT doesn't do this. It is one story starting from Luke and growing into each film with the message of the movie being the same. A journey of one man who joins the rebellion, learns the ways of the force and uses his skills to defeat the Empire. It doesn't deviate into subplots, everything is done for a reason, nothing is tacked on then discarded to provide cheap thrills e.g. Darth Maul, General Grievious, Count Dooku, Jango Fett.

Luke's main enemy in the in ANH is The Death Star/Darth Vader, in ESB its Darth Vader, in ROTJ its Darth Vader/The Emperor. Not much deviation and at least they are given the time to establish themselves before being killed off. Even Jabba The Hutt is established in ANH and referenced too throughout ESB so that when he meets his end in ROTJ its fine and makes sense because we know there is an underlying friction between Han and Jabba. This makes the stories stronger as a result and reinforces the goals of the main characters as being one and the same, no matter what each character is doing within the movie.

Plus all the villains in the OT stand in the way of the heroes reaching their goals. In the PT there are many, Jango, Grievous, Dooku, Maul, that are quite unclear in the way they are blocking the goals of the heroes. It's only Sidious and the powerful jedi can't even see him as the perpetrator.

Oh yes, the dark side clouds everything. How convenient, another plot device for everyone not to do anything....

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
No way is this true. The PT is confused with several subplots working at the same time to no great effect. No one subplot within the PT reaches a level of great importance and they all vy for attention at the same time.

The OT doesn't do this. It is one story starting from Luke and growing into each film with the message of the movie being the same. A journey of one man who joins the rebellion, learns the ways of the force and uses his skills to defeat the Empire. It doesn't deviate into subplots, everything is done for a reason, nothing is tacked on then discarded to provide cheap thrills e.g. Darth Maul, General Grievious, Count Dooku, Jango Fett.

Luke's main enemy in the in ANH is The Death Star/Darth Vader, in ESB its Darth Vader, in ROTJ its Darth Vader/The Emperor. Not much deviation and at least they are given the time to establish themselves before being killed off. Even Jabba The Hutt is established in ANH and referenced too throughout ESB so that when he meets his end in ROTJ its fine and makes sense because we know there is an underlying friction between Han and Jabba. This makes the stories stronger as a result and reinforces the goals of the main characters as being one and the same, no matter what each character is doing within the movie.

OOO yeah, i'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there.
The OT had subplots too. EP4 had Leias struggle with tarkin and vader. Hans getting money to pay jabba and obiwan and vader at the end.
ep5 had leia and han love stuff, boba fett to a certain degree, Lando in cloud city.
ep 6 had again han in jabbas palace, Jabba himself, Leia and han love stuff again. the whole end battle besides luke and vader could be a subplot.
all those subplots work into luke's story.
The PT is the same, all the plots tie-in to one big picture. the whole thing is Anakins turn to the darkside and Palps rise to power.
and every subplot within the PT is needed and ties into the main plot.

The sith make their move, and Maul is used to take on the jedi. Palps uses the trade federation trade route thing to obtain control over the senate. The pod race is used for some excitment and also to get parts for the ship and to demonstraite that anakin is powerful with the force. even Jar Jar served a purpose to be introduced, something fun for the kids and in EPII he is so stupid that he proposes to give Palps power (padme would not have done this)

In EPII Gunray is trying to assasinate padme, to help the sepratist movment and for revenge. Dooku is leading the sepratists under the watchfull eye of Palps, so Palps will be able to completly rise to power and Jango is used to create the clones so the republic ends up being forced to use them once they find out dooku is creating a droid army.

ep III grievous is brought in to capture Palps and temporarly replace dooku once he is gone so the jedi have to rescue him and where Palps can further corrupt anakin after killing dooku. Obiwan is sent to utapah to get grievous and gunray to try and bring and end to the war.

Do you notice at the end of every film besides episode 4 they are always
multiple battles going on.
ep 1, Maul, Quigon and Obiwan, gungans and space battles
ep2, clone war, and dooku, obiwan and anakin, and dooku and yoda.
ep3, anakin and obiwan, and sidious and yoda.
ep5, vader and luke, and the escape from cloud city.
ep6, vader and luke, battle on endor and the space battle.
all the movies follow the same format. excitment at the begining and then slows down and excitment in the middle then slows down and excitment at the end.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
ep III grievous is brought in to capture Palps and temporarly replace dooku once he is gone so the jedi have to rescue him and where Palps can further corrupt anakin after killing dooku.

But Grievous works for Palps so we get a very strange situation there wondering why Grievous was there in the first place, as well as Dooku for that matter. What was the point of having Dooku there? To have meetings with bank managers and robot builders?

The PT is extremely covoluted.... EXTREMELY. And emotionless.

darthmaul1

What you've described from the OT aren't sub-plots, they are all essential to the main story, or how the story/characters progress.

EP4: Leia's struggle with Tarkin and Vader? Thats called setting the scene, that where she starts off, what do you want PT style team-ups right from the begining? Han getting money to pay Jabba sets up his character, his motivations and is expanded on and not left up in the air like the PT would have done. Obi-Wan and Vader don't meet at the end of the film so I don't know what you mean.

EP5: Leia and Han's love isn't cloying and forced. It progresses throughout the films but it does not distract from the films adventure. Padme and 'Anny' is forced, creepy and stops the momentum of the films in a big way. Boba Fett? As it explains he is there for Han Solo, on behalf of Jabba, see ANH, ESB as to why. Lando in Cloud City, yes they escape the Empire and need a safe haven so Han goes to his friend Lando, entirely plausible storytelling and this goes on to present the film with a location to conclude the story.

EP6: Han at Jabbas palace, yes because the previous two films have been building up to this from ANH and ESB. It's called developing the story and characters, what, are they meant to just leave him there?
As soon as they got him back they went on the main adventure. Leia and Han love stuff? So brief its barely there in ROTJ and it does nothing to detract from any of the scenes. The space battle and the battle on Endor are neccessary elements to tell the story. They need to destroy the shield generators so the fleet can get past the shield to the Death Star if Luke fails. If Luke was killed/turned and these other events weren't happening then the Empire would win and the rebels would look pretty stupid if they didn't have a backup plan. This is what Luke is talking about when he says 'In a moment I'll be dead...and you with me'

They are not structured the same, PT has far too much going on and far too many characters that mean little, if anything to the bigger picture.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
darthmaul1

What you've described from the OT aren't sub-plots, they are all essential to the main story, or how the story/characters progress.

EP4: Leia's struggle with Tarkin and Vader? Thats called setting the scene, that where she starts off, what do you want PT style team-ups right from the begining? Han getting money to pay Jabba sets up his character, his motivations and is expanded on and not left up in the air like the PT would have done. Obi-Wan and Vader don't meet at the end of the film so I don't know what you mean.

EP5: Leia and Han's love isn't cloying and forced. It progresses throughout the films but it does not distract from the films adventure. Padme and 'Anny' is forced, creepy and stops the momentum of the films in a big way. Boba Fett? As it explains he is there for Han Solo, on behalf of Jabba, see ANH, ESB as to why. Lando in Cloud City, yes they escape the Empire and need a safe haven so Han goes to his friend Lando, entirely plausible storytelling and this goes on to present the film with a location to conclude the story.

EP6: Han at Jabbas palace, yes because the previous two films have been building up to this from ANH and ESB. It's called developing the story and characters, what, are they meant to just leave him there?
As soon as they got him back they went on the main adventure. Leia and Han love stuff? So brief its barely there in ROTJ and it does nothing to detract from any of the scenes. The space battle and the battle on Endor are neccessary elements to tell the story. They need to destroy the shield generators so the fleet can get past the shield to the Death Star if Luke fails. If Luke was killed/turned and these other events weren't happening then the Empire would win and the rebels would look pretty stupid if they didn't have a backup plan. This is what Luke is talking about when he says 'In a moment I'll be dead...and you with me'

They are not structured the same, PT has far too much going on and far too many characters that mean little, if anything to the bigger picture.

Fine, that is your opinion, but IMO all the subplots in PT do and did matter in the bigger picture and as you said about the OT for the PT they are all still essential to the main story, or how the story/characters progress.

How does the PT have too many characters that mean little? Obi-wan, Anakin, Padme, Sidious, Dooku c3p0 & r2, quigon. they all meant something.
The OT has Luke, Vader, Han, Leia, Emperor,c3po, r2, Lando
That's the same number plus a few others in each trilogy like Tarkin, Boba, Grievous, organa, etc.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Fine, that is your opinion, but IMO all the subplots in PT do and did matter in the bigger picture and as you said about the OT for the PT they are all still essential to the main story, or how the story/characters progress.

How does the PT have too many characters that mean little? Obi-wan, Anakin, Padme, Sidious, Dooku c3p0 & r2, quigon. they all meant something.
The OT has Luke, Vader, Han, Leia, Emperor,c3po, r2, Lando
That's the same number plus a few others in each trilogy like Tarkin, Boba, Grievous, organa, etc.

The deviations in the PT were made worse by the fact that they had several separate 'adventures' going on at the same time and it kept flicking to and fro each giving absolutely no one scene priority over another. The OT does not jump around too much and so we feel comfortable in the setting we are being given at the time.

The PT has lots of staged characters that mean nothing because they don't survive very long nor do they have any real substance, or character to them. Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Jango Fett, Selbulba(the unofficial villain of the first part of TPM), any of the extraneous Jedi that are wiped out so easily in ROTS, Jar Jar Binks, Qui-Gon (means nothing in the OT; ironically enough he should have been the 'good friend' that Obi-Wan Kenobi refers to)etc.

While I know this doesn't account for everyone, the notion of the PT sucking as a whole is contradicting the way almost all of us felt after watching Episode III. That Lucas finally delivered and Sith was one of the best installments of the saga. Don't believe me? Ah...let's turn back the clock 5 years in time and revisit our wonderful reactions to Episode III. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=342552&highlight=ROTS+Review+forumid%3A38

But now we make statements like the PT as whole was terrible, and I ask why we can't acknowledge something like "Well, I wasn't quite captivated by Episode I and II, but ROTS was a great sendoff as the final chapter in SW."

That movie shows that Lucas was capable of making a film that at a minimum, was at least better than one of the Episodes of the ever so precious, practically flawless, god like OT. So saying the PT sucks...is also applying the notion that ROTS sucked, when in my opinion, people just aren't admitting that Lucas proved them wrong.

As far as characters not reacting to their enviornments in the PT....don't you think the intense heat on a desert planning like Tatooine would force charcters like Luke to wear shorts and a t-shirt? Instead he's dressed like this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RhoiX9HEM_o/TCl8D2vfPhI/AAAAAAAABfM/Mog-Z4xZWXQ/s400/lukeskywalker.jpg I'd probably hang myself wearing something like that out in a desert. How did they even survive on Tatooine...where do they get their water or how do they produce it? It's never explained. Oh, it must suck then because they never developed how people survive on a planet that would be practically unsurvivable.

The issue with the PT is not lack of story. If anyone says that each of the PT films didn't have a story, that's completely not true. In fact, even the ever so hated AOTC was more "plot and story" driven then either Menace or Sith. So again, there's not a lack of story, but rather lack of the story that "you" wanted to see.

For example...the characters are emotionless right? In the original they were so bright and colorful. Luke had emotions because he was constantly pet peeved or whining about something. Oh wait!! Isn't that what everyone said about Anakin too? We all hated Anakin because he whined alot...yeah....oh, just like Luke! Whining is an emotion...being incredibly annoying to the point that you wish someone would die "Jar Jar" is a character with emotion even though you don't like it....and Obi-Wan being boring? He's part of an era when the Jedi must obide under strict rules and let go of attachment, so it would only make sense that characters like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu are calm...collected and laid back. Yet we make unfair comparisons between this Star Wars era and films, to the old SW era and films of the OT. If you take the prequels at face value for what they are, they're not bad films. They're only bad in the sense that you're holding them up against the OT. Watch a film like Batman and Robin, or better yet, Battlefield Earth...then come back here and tell me the Prequels sucked.

We forget, characters from this era of Star Wars, in a more elegant, sophisticated time, would be far more casual and unnerving, as opposed to a time when the Empire is causing great stress and despair among the people living under it's dictatorship.

you.are.awesome

your a true star wars fan i can see it in your ey...virtual eyes

Originally posted by dadudemon
I blame the "blankie syndrome" on that hate for the PT. What do I mean by "blankie syndrome"? I mean that these people have attachments to their "blankie" and cannot give it up. Some children will not let go of a small blanket that they've had while growing up and it is near impossible to get them to let go of it. The OT is their "blankie". They have gone as far as to try and justify their positions in elaborate manners rather than just giving up their "blankies." Now, this is not to say that everyone in this thread fits that category: some of you have legitimate complaints about the PT, and such. However, I notice a lot of Star Wars blankie syndrome on KMC and it annoys me, but I am happy to say that there are several of you that like the PT better than the OT.

Not matter what GL did, OT fanboys would have hated the PT. There was nothing to avoid that.

Fact is, the PT is better in almost every single facet.

Better acting.
Better effects.
Better story.
Better characters.
Better cinematography.
Better fantasy elements.
Better movie score.
Better sound and sound effects.
Ground breaking effects has to go to the OT, hands down.
Wow factor, however, has to go to the PT, easily.

Any time I hear some fanboy say that the OT acting is better than the PT, I just remind them of Luke Skywalker and/or link them to Luke's whine fest against Vader in ESB: quite shitty acting and it should make any normal person laugh.

Hayden was whiny?

Ha!

Hamil was much whinier in the first two OT films.

There was no ground breaking efforts in the PT? Sure, maybe if we are speaking only about RoTS, but the fact is, Lucas and his team made leaps of CGI progress in TPM. They made even more progress in AoTC. The kept that advances from AoTC and used that in RotS. If some were as big of "Star Wars" fans as they profess, they would know that.




That said, I still think both the OT and PT are some of the best movies of all time. All 6 of them go in my top 20. I love them shits really really badly.



Edit - Side note, I've gotta give props to my boy, darthmaul1, for approaching the PT movies with an open mind and judging the films exactly for what they were: excellent films. I wish every Star Wars fanboy approached the PT like that: we might have had much better Star Wars goodness than what we have now but the haters may have prevented us from getting anymore films. GL was thinking about doing episodes 7, 8, and 9, when he was working on TPM...but he changed his mind somwhere between AoTC and RotS. If he had gotten almost universal praise, his distaste for all of that hard work might have been outweighed by the love he got. Just saying that you haters may have prevented the best episodes from being made into GL-level quality of films. For that, I hate you. (not really, I still love you guys.)

you sir are a true fan of star wars....i agree completly.....i wanted to see the further adventures of luke skywalker but no some "fans" disagreed

Although I do sympathise with your views, SMX, I do not entirely agree.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
While I know this doesn't account for everyone, the notion of the PT sucking as a whole is contradicting the way almost all of us felt after watching Episode III. That Lucas finally delivered and Sith was one of the best installments of the saga. Don't believe me? Ah...let's turn back the clock 5 years in time and revisit our wonderful reactions to Episode III. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=342552&highlight=ROTS+Review+forumid%3A38

But now we make statements like the PT as whole was terrible, and I ask why we can't acknowledge something like "Well, I wasn't quite captivated by Episode I and II, but ROTS was a great sendoff as the final chapter in SW."


Yes, ROTS stood out from the PT. It does. I remember the pacing was much better, the jokes were better etc. My main gripe was that ROTS made AOTC obsolete: AOTC became a meaningless story that doesn't start anywhere, that doesn't go anywhere. I said it zillion times before: AOTC tells us two things: a) a clone army was secretly ordered (but since we never know who did it, what's the point of doing exposition on this point... it's just an announcement now.... boring) and b) Anakin falls in love... (and that's about the worst love story ever made, totally unbelievable, terrible lines and performances). Since both don't really work dramatically, AOTC is a major failure.

And though ROTS is a lot better than the previrous two, a closer look at it does in fact raise questions:
1. Why is Anakin's turn to the dark side so rushed and weird (first he wants to kill Sidious, then he tells Mace that Sidious is a Sith and says he's on the only one who can stop him, he follows Mace and kills the guy, then Sidious tells him he cannot save people from death... the very reason Anakin killed Mace... WTF???)

2. Why is the end battle so long and so boring?

And that raises the major question about the PT despite its merits (ROTS is the best, AOTC is the prettiest, TPM had a good be it a tad long pod race) why does it fail to deliver it's main plot points? Why does it give us lots of unimportant side characters that do not contribute to the main plot points but do offer a lot of eye candy? And why does it so often contradict facts and suggestions from the OT. The most important one being OB1 talking fondly of Anakin as a good friend... and we never really SEE them as good friends... Yes, they talk about it, but what we really see is them bickering and complaining about each other.


Originally posted by Sith Master X
That movie shows that Lucas was capable of making a film that at a minimum, was at least better than one of the Episodes of the ever so precious, practically flawless, god like OT. So saying the PT sucks...is also applying the notion that ROTS sucked, when in my opinion, people just aren't admitting that Lucas proved them wrong.


Sorry mate.... ROTS was NOT flawless. There is only one nearly flawless film in the Sw saga and that is Empire.


Originally posted by Sith Master X
As far as characters not reacting to their enviornments in the PT....don't you think the intense heat on a desert planning like Tatooine would force charcters like Luke to wear shorts and a t-shirt? Instead he's dressed like this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RhoiX9HEM_o/TCl8D2vfPhI/AAAAAAAABfM/Mog-Z4xZWXQ/s400/lukeskywalker.jpg I'd probably hang myself wearing something like that out in a desert. How did they even survive on Tatooine...where do they get their water or how do they produce it? It's never explained. Oh, it must suck then because they never developed how people survive on a planet that would be practically unsurvivable.



Ever seen beduins? They wear a lot of layers of clothing. It keeps the body temperature constant. I think Lucas chose this appropriately to reflect a desert culture. You don't live in the desert and go wearing shorts and a t-shirt all day... You'd be nuts, you were protective clothing from radiation, light, sand etc. Luke's clothing refelcts that of the Tuskens who also wear a lot of protecting layered clothing.

So that's a rather lame analysis.


Originally posted by Sith Master X
The issue with the PT is not lack of story. If anyone says that each of the PT films didn't have a story, that's completely not true. In fact, even the ever so hated AOTC was more "plot and story" driven then either Menace or Sith. So again, there's not a lack of story, but rather lack of the story that "you" wanted to see.

I agree there was no lack of story. there was a lot, too much even perhaps. Lucas tries to cramp so much stuff in it that he totally passes by the crucial story elements. That is my main gripe.

Even brilliant stuff, at least I thought that was brilliant, people totally miss. If you look at the separatists: tehy are formed by trade federation, banking clan, techno union... all the major power houses of the galactic economy and with a strong political influence.

Palpy has united them secretly in the Separatists, knowing he will totally wipe them out with his clones. I though taht was brilliant. But you hardly get it, only by rewatching the films and reading the books you pick up this subtlety... And yet, even that brilliance is totally lost in all the visual mayhem and boring convo scenes that are about a lot, but not about what's really at stake.


Originally posted by Sith Master X
For example...the characters are emotionless right? In the original they were so bright and colorful. Luke had emotions because he was constantly pet peeved or whining about something. Oh wait!! Isn't that what everyone said about Anakin too? We all hated Anakin because he whined alot...yeah....oh, just like Luke! Whining is an emotion...being incredibly annoying to the point that you wish someone would die "Jar Jar" is a character with emotion even though you don't like it....and Obi-Wan being boring? He's part of an era when the Jedi must obide under strict rules and let go of attachment, so it would only make sense that characters like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu are calm...collected and laid back. Yet we make unfair comparisons between this Star Wars era and films, to the old SW era and films of the OT. If you take the prequels at face value for what they are, they're not bad films. They're only bad in the sense that you're holding them up against the OT. Watch a film like Batman and Robin, or better yet, Battlefield Earth...then come back here and tell me the Prequels sucked.


Well, I do think we are entitled to expect a bit more from SW that from people like Joel Schumacher of Scientologists...

And about the jedi... yes, I know they are calm and emotionless.... Makes you wonder why Lucas made them to be that way. Why are detached people interesting to make a movie about???? WTF... movies are about emotion... and now the main characters are characters that are not supposed to have attachments or emotions...

And apart from that, they are also quite dumb. They don't see much coming. Thanks for the Dark Side, it clouds everything rendering the Jedi not only emotionless but clueless as well... Now, we never got this idea of Jedi from the OT. What we learned about Jedi most, prolly in the entire saga, is in Empire, during Luke's training. Not only do these scenes have the most memorable lines of the saga, but it tells us something what Jedi are about. In the PT all we see is boring people in robes waving their lightsabres around in a very casual fashion... oh, and losing them a lot too.

All in all, the PT is flawed. I'll love it as part of the saga, but they are very very far from what they could have been. A movie like Avatar, even though also quite flawed storywise, made a much bigger impression on me that the entire PT. It made me feel like I did when I first saw the OT: it took me to a world that was credible.

And since the PT universe is quite different from the OT one, I can easily say that Lucas failed to transport me to this universe. It's too convoluted storywise, has lots of characters that are at first glance interesting but have no relevance at all (grievous, Dooku, Maul), it's too sterile in look, too unconvincing...

Empire rules...

My analysis of Tatooine had more to do with the fact of the statement made about "Oh, Anakin and Obi-Wan don't react to the intesnse heat on Mustafar." What are they supposed to do though? Here's a thought...

"Hang on Obi-Wan...I know we're in the midst of the grandest fight of all time, but I shall be needing a moment to catch my breath from the intense exhausting of this heat." Point is, I far more believe that Anakin and Obi-Wan would be able to fight on a planet like Mustafar, then I'm able to believe that people could survive day after day on a planet like Tatooine.

We never see Luke appear to look hot and sweaty, and it's more disgusting to think they probably never shower or take baths there because we don't see where they even get water to survive. But maybe they don't need water to survive because it's a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away. It's science fiction.

I do agree that the OT has more depth and better characters, but I also believe that the PT does several things that actually strengthen the OT as well. This is where people overlook some pretty awesome stuff.

Take this for example. We all say the duel on Mustafar is void of any emotion. While I don't necessarily agree with that, I think this fight completely strengthens the moment in ANH when Vader says "When we last met, I was but a learner, now I am the master." (6th grade Dialogue btw, but we'll brush it off because it's the OT) But the point is, before hand, we never knew what exactly that meant. They met at some point in time, but when, where, over what exactly? Now when you finally get to that moment, there's more depth. There's background, depth, and you understand what Vader means when he says that. Sure, it worked all these years before Episode III came out, but at least it provided background to it, and that's exactly what the PT was. A background story, which is most likely why it fails to most people.

So while certain things of the PT may seem bland, it becomes quite genius when you hit moments of the OT and can finally draw a connection. And whether or not people hated "kiddy Anakin," knowing that the tryant behind the black mask was once an innocent slave boy with asparation to become a Jedi and not a Sith, adds more depth to the character. And who cares if things like the pod-race doesn't add any depth, it's freaken amazing to watch, and fun. That's why I always say, take the movies at face value for what they are, and they can be very enjoyable.

You have every right not to be happy with the PT. I understand. All I'm saying is that I understand what these movies are and what they weren't trying to be either. They are providing the "backstory" to the eventual "story" we all knew and love.

The difference is, when he wrote the ORIGINAL movies, he was still hungry and was trying to make something that would change the history of movie-making... which he did.

20 years, and 6 billion dollars later, he decided he needed to be relevant again, and decided to go back and tell the story of the most powerful Jedi ever, and his subsequent fall from grace. The PT relied too heavily on CGI and was geared towards kids, it seems. No real substance, cheap gimmicks and lame jokes (see all of 3PO in AoTC).

It's just a completely different set of movies. Sith was the best of the PT, and even that was...rushed. They tried to cram too much into it. One second Anakin is arresting Palpatine (having Mace do it) and then in the next scene he's slobbing the knob of the darkside. They should have started TPM when Anakin was a teenager. We never got to see him actually do anything with the force that was that impressive. They just simply lack.

And really, I can like and dislike whatever I choose, and your opinion on doesn't really mean dick. Don't ask people's opinions if you're going to cry and tell them to go away.

Did I ever say what you could like or dislike? I was offering suggestions on how to quit making unfair comparisons to everyone here.

Boy have you changed, sir.

Yea, my bad. I wasn't talking you. I was talking to the douche that started the thread. I've forgotten the message length limits, so i decided not to quote him.

That wasn't directed to you, my friend.

Well in that case, I'm sorry. I figured since your post was after mine that it was responding to me, but it's all cool. No worries.

Yea, I actually thought about that after I posted it. Ah well. Its straight now. I wouldn't come at you like that anyway.. especially after going ghost for several months.

I was referring to this...

Originally posted by InfernoJG95
why? i ask you why you hate the prequel trilogy? oh jar jar binks, oh goerge lucas forgot loads of things STFU! you say your star wars fans and then go on to say oh god the prequel trilogy what a joke...its not a joke. the prequel trilogy is important. it fills in the secrets to the saga. its like a jigsaw puzzle. please tell me why you hate the prequel trilogy and ill tell you why i think your a moron. attack of the clones: that film was bad loads of plot holes i didnt get it....what are you a retard! just please if you say your a big star wars fan but hate the prequels then please leave. go like something else. you cant like one part of something but really hate the other. john williams music i the good part of the prequels....no its not. its a part of it. the good part to me was the lightsabre fights and the action scenes. the love scenes were the worst...what would you prefer? twilight? didnt think so. also some of you abuse george lucas....well he made star wars , your faveourite film series....id understand if you preferred the orignal trilogy but some comments ive seen about the prequel trilogy just pissed me off.

The thing is, I know I can come across as odd at times for supporting the prequels. I do understand everyone's viewpoints on them, and I get what Queeq is saying, I really really do.

Disliking the prequels doesn't mean you're not a true Star Wars fans. It means you're an extremely passionate SW fan that expects incredibly high standards, and when you get something different and extremely far from what the originals were, you're bound to be let down. I understand that. But the great thing about myself, is that I never forgot what it's like to be a kid again and to be dazzled by amazing scenary and incredible landscapes. I enjoy Lucas as a visual story teller, which is precisely what he is, and what he's best at.

But, it's nothing I haven't said 1000 times on here already. lol There are reasons to like and be dissapointed with the prequels, and it's a shame that most people find all the flaws, rather than all the good points as well, and it's a bigger shame that we have to label these movies as "bad" for the pure sake of the comparison to the OT. The prequels had plot holes and unanswered questions, but Lucas is only a creator, not a god, and he couldn't possibly be perfect with this series. Almost every movie in existence has flaws, a plot hole, inconsitency or something else wrong with it. That is the very nature of filmmaking.

The PT doesn't live up to the OT standars, but hell, they are far better movies than the likes of say "Chronicles of Narnia."

Hehehe... good point that.

Yeah, well I must say the flaws of the PT become more and more obvious when I rewatch the movies. There are maybe things to discover in the visuals, but I do find a great lack of depth in the characters. And that's what a lot of non-SW fans dislike about the movies as well, while they can enjoy something like Avatar.

And as for Anakin's 'development' I must say the PT doesn't add a whole lot more to the OT's remarks about Anakin. I would have loved to see a great hero we could cheer for, deciding to go for the Dark Side. I felt that was what the PT should have explored. We see a little yippeeekayeee-kid with lots of 'good tricks' and then we switch to a grumpy, sulky complaining brat... who then turn to evil. Well, duh...

I always imagined a much deeper story. the elements in the OT are there: a loving teacher that fails his best friend, whom he loses to the Emperor, plus the guy had a wife... he must have been such a great guy but also terribly conflicted to give all that up... PLUS the question of offspring was obviously an issue in the OT... Yet, neither Anakin or Palpy know of Padme's pregancy... I just don't understand how so many great dramatic leads from the OT led to something so emotionless as the PT, with so much forced drama that bears so little relevance to the plot points.

Anyway, it's what we have. All we can hope is that Lucas doesn't keep changing to the OT to match the rather inferior PT... I'd prefer he'd do it the other way around.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
The deviations in the PT were made worse by the fact that they had several separate 'adventures' going on at the same time and it kept flicking to and fro each giving absolutely no one scene priority over another. The OT does not jump around too much and so we feel comfortable in the setting we are being given at the time.

The PT has lots of staged characters that mean nothing because they don't survive very long nor do they have any real substance, or character to them. Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Jango Fett, Selbulba(the unofficial villain of the first part of TPM), any of the extraneous Jedi that are wiped out so easily in ROTS, Jar Jar Binks, Qui-Gon (means nothing in the OT; ironically enough he should have been the 'good friend' that Obi-Wan Kenobi refers to)etc.

Both trilogies jumped around all the time, at least every 5 min there was a scene wipe, and all of the scenes had bearing on all the stories. Please watch the OT and PT again. the scenes simply follow the major characters on their adventure. example, empire was luke, and the falcon and vader and lando.
attack of the clones had anakin doing his thing and obiwan doing his.

How can you say all those characters mean nothing? I'll be the first to admit i would of loved to have seen darth maul in all the episodes. but he was still there to move against the jedi. dooku was there to lead the separatists and start the war for sidious and to assist in the turn of anakin, mace windu was a catalyst to help turn anakin. Jango fett was used to assassinate padme to push her away from the senate to let palps in and obviously used to create the clones (which we heard about in epIV) Sebulba? you could compare him to biggs in ep IV he was a character that served his purpose.
of course jar jar and quigon mean nothing in the OT, it's 20 years later and are out of the picture and any way the story revolves around the skywalkers and obiwan and yoda.

Originally posted by queeq
Although I do sympathise with your views, SMX, I do not entirely agree.



Yes, ROTS stood out from the PT. It does. I remember the pacing was much better, the jokes were better etc. My main gripe was that ROTS made AOTC obsolete: AOTC became a meaningless story that doesn't start anywhere, that doesn't go anywhere. I said it zillion times before: AOTC tells us two things: a) a clone army was secretly ordered (but since we never know who did it, what's the point of doing exposition on this point... it's just an announcement now.... boring) and b) Anakin falls in love... (and that's about the worst love story ever made, totally unbelievable, terrible lines and performances). Since both don't really work dramatically, AOTC is a major failure.



What i got from ATOC was the clone army ordered by syfo dias, but since he was killed i came to the conclusion that dooku assumed his identity (jango did say he was recruited by a man named tyranus) and that is dookus sith name Lord Tyranus.


Originally posted by queeq

And though ROTS is a lot better than the previrous two, a closer look at it does in fact raise questions:
1. Why is Anakin's turn to the dark side so rushed and weird (first he wants to kill Sidious, then he tells Mace that Sidious is a Sith and says he's on the only one who can stop him, he follows Mace and kills the guy, then Sidious tells him he cannot save people from death... the very reason Anakin killed Mace... WTF???)




Anakins turn rushed? What about Luke's training in empire? he goes out to jedi camp for a few days and is ready to face vader? (did not notice this till i was older but that seemed rushed)
any hoo back to anakin, he's been pissed ever since mace and yoda said he wouldn't be trained in episode I.
He's annoyed at obiwan for holding him back and he hacks down the sand people. and he kills dooku. remember that sidious was manipulating him from the start, as soon as he became a padwan till the end and the show this in epII and ep III

what was weird about his turn? Again sidious was manipulating him and did say that he can save padme but to make sure he has anakins full loyalty he says they have to work together to obtain this power.
To me Palps was the one who manipulated the midiclorians in Shimi to give birth to anakin. as he kind of stated it in the opera scene when he mentions darth palagerious. (spelling)

Originally posted by queeq

2. Why is the end battle so long and so boring?

And that raises the major question about the PT despite its merits (ROTS is the best, AOTC is the prettiest, TPM had a good be it a tad long pod race) why does it fail to deliver it's main plot points? Why does it give us lots of unimportant side characters that do not contribute to the main plot points but do offer a lot of eye candy? And why does it so often contradict facts and suggestions from the OT. The most important one being OB1 talking fondly of Anakin as a good friend... and we never really SEE them as good friends... Yes, they talk about it, but what we really see is them bickering and complaining about each other.



End Battle long and Boring? what were you watching? People have done nothing but speculate on that battle and how grand it was going to be ever since Vader said "When last we met i was but the learner now i am the master" and i think they totally delivered on all aspects.
The pod race is the thing you mention about TPM? what about the final light sabre battle? that was fantastic. Umm Anakin and Obi-wan were good friends which was established in dialogue and their actions in ep II and III, they did care for one another. At any rate what is Ben suppose to tell Luke? Your father was a douche and killed the jedi and younglings and choked the life out of your mother (depending what you believe)


Originally posted by queeq

I agree there was no lack of story. there was a lot, too much even perhaps. Lucas tries to cramp so much stuff in it that he totally passes by the crucial story elements. That is my main gripe.

Even brilliant stuff, at least I thought that was brilliant, people totally miss. If you look at the separatists: tehy are formed by trade federation, banking clan, techno union... all the major power houses of the galactic economy and with a strong political influence.

Palpy has united them secretly in the Separatists, knowing he will totally wipe them out with his clones. I though taht was brilliant. But you hardly get it, only by rewatching the films and reading the books you pick up this subtlety... And yet, even that brilliance is totally lost in all the visual mayhem and boring convo scenes that are about a lot, but not about what's really at stake.


To me the whole separatists and the trade federation story was pretty obvious and not lost in the visual mayhem in any way.
The movie was made to be in a very grand and wide scope with many planets and races and characters to show the republic in all it's glory, then when you get to ep 4-6 its more dark and militaristic due to the empires rule.

Originally posted by queeq


All in all, the PT is flawed. I'll love it as part of the saga, but they are very very far from what they could have been. A movie like Avatar, even though also quite flawed storywise, made a much bigger impression on me that the entire PT. It made me feel like I did when I first saw the OT: it took me to a world that was credible.

And since the PT universe is quite different from the OT one, I can easily say that Lucas failed to transport me to this universe. It's too convoluted storywise, has lots of characters that are at first glance interesting but have no relevance at all (grievous, Dooku, Maul), it's too sterile in look, too unconvincing...

Empire rules...



Wow a movie like Avatar made a bigger impression on you? That was the height of crapfest.
1. which you acknowledged already the story sucked.
2. the visuals IMO were nothing spectacular i saw the same in episodes 1-6!
3. I was transported to other worlds in other movies like Alien and Aliens, star trek, pitch black, total recall, and star wars the same as avatar, if a sci fi movie can't do that then there is a problem.
4. CGI creatures in star wars especially the clone troopers looked better and more believable than the na'vi.
the only thing avatar had going for it was the 3D floating jelly fish and embers. Tron was a better 3D experience (FYI given a choice i would go for a 2 D show)

Regardless of how we feel about the characters in the PT...fond or not so fond of them, that fact that we're still analyzing these people 6, 9, and almost 12 years after these movies were released, is living proof that the Prequels kept Star Wars alive and gave us all something to talk about.

We don't talk about or analyze characters from the movie "Lost in Space" "The Fifth Element" "The Day The Earth Stood Still" etc....because they didn't have the same sort of impact on us. Yet here we are all these years later challenging certain characters and their motivations...why they would do the things they did, and the reason we do that is because we care about them whether we believe so or not. It's this "care" that sparks frustration. It's no different then a parent complaining about their child because they're following the wrong path, or doing wrong in their eyes and aren't living up to their full potential, but you love that child no matter what, even though you find their biggest flaws.

People may not have loved Anakin as a kid in Episode I, but I wouldn't believe it if someone told me you weren't rooting for the kid during the pod-race as he is racing for his freedom without being aware of it. It wasn't only an awesome sequence, but it meant something to the actual story. However, little things like that get passed off as "another CGI excuse." This however, is Geroge's way of having fun and telling a story visually and in an exciting fashion. This is why I always say, forgive George in the dialogue department...and acknowledge his strength as an excellent visual story teller.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
4. CGI creatures in star wars especially the clone troopers looked better and more believable than the na'vi.

The Clone Troopers did nothing for me for character Na'vi was were more believable to me



Same here.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
What i got from ATOC was the clone army ordered by syfo dias, but since he was killed i came to the conclusion that dooku assumed his identity (jango did say he was recruited by a man named tyranus) and that is dookus sith name Lord Tyranus.

And there you have the problem: we have to conclude a solution which bears no relevance to the story, has no consequences for the Jedi or Anakin or Ob1. We have to CONCLUDE a POSSIBLE solution for something that is ireelevant. Why shoudl we care whre the clone army came from now?

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Anakins turn rushed? What about Luke's training in empire? he goes out to jedi camp for a few days and is ready to face vader? (did not notice this till i was older but that seemed rushed)
any hoo back to anakin, he's been pissed ever since mace and yoda said he wouldn't be trained in episode I.
He's annoyed at obiwan for holding him back and he hacks down the sand people. and he kills dooku. remember that sidious was manipulating him from the start, as soon as he became a padwan till the end and the show this in epII and ep III

what was weird about his turn? Again sidious was manipulating him and did say that he can save padme but to make sure he has anakins full loyalty he says they have to work together to obtain this power.
To me Palps was the one who manipulated the midiclorians in Shimi to give birth to anakin. as he kind of stated it in the opera scene when he mentions darth palagerious. (spelling)


Maybe Luke's training was rushed... heck, we didn't know how Jedi were trained then. It's only the PT that made JEdi-ness into a life long training. But the cutting away and back at least gave us the impression it lasted a while. I think according to SW chronology it lasted a few months. But at least his training was lengthened cinematically.

So why was Anakin's fall rushed. Let us analyse.

1. Anakin finds out Palpy is a Sith. He is angry, wants to kill him but Palpy manipulates him out of immediate action.
2. Anakin rushes to Mace, tell him Palpy is the Sith they have been looking for (and ever since his humiliating defeat against a Sith in AOTC his anger would have been strong enough to want to kill him, he loved killing Dooku after all).
3. Anakin angry with the way palpy has manipulated him, says he's the only one who can kill him. But Mace refuses to take him with him.
4. Anakin decides to follow Mace, sees him in battle with Sidious.... and cuts of Mace's hands... Okay, don't quite follow his thinking
4. Then he falls back in near despair, shocked by his action - What have I done???
5. Instead of exacting his revenge on Sidious, he falls down on his knees and pledges allegiance.... WTF?????????
6. Next Palpy tells him: Oh, I don't know how to save people from death but maybe together we can. And Anakin goes: okay, sure, whatever you say, kill younglings, sure no problem.

This is total crapfest. Emotionally and logically this does not make any sense. It's ridiculous. That's why it's rushed. Lucas wants to have him feel the attraction top the dark side, his doubts, a bad action, regret and and final irresistance to the Dark Side all in a couple of minutes.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
End Battle long and Boring? what were you watching? People have done nothing but speculate on that battle and how grand it was going to be ever since Vader said "When last we met i was but the learner now i am the master" and i think they totally delivered on all aspects.

THey fight a lot and very long but not much happens beside a lot of jumping around...

Originally posted by darthmaul1
The pod race is the thing you mention about TPM? what about the final light sabre battle? that was fantastic.

Again, looks beautiful but it's long and what it's all about, I have no idea. Whatever the outcome of the fight... it's doesn't seem to have much relevance to the rest of the story. Two thing can happen: either Maul gets defeated or he wis. Well, he dies... so? So Palpy needs a new apprentice... well.... golly, poor man. If he wins, nothing changes because by that time, the viceroy has been take captive.

This fight too: there is no drama in it. Nothing's really at stake during the fight. The only reason we watch this is so QGJ can die... and then, here we have to make a lot of expositionary jumps of thought.... then OB1 will have to train Anakin... so Anakin can go wrong... so Anakin can become Darth vader..... right... he has to become Darth Vader because the OT needs him to be that way, and OB1 will have to train him so we need an excuse... okay.... So QGJ has to die so OB1 can train him and.... fail...???? Well, where do we see that OB1 is a bad teacher, worse than QGJ (who called OB1 much wiser than himself)?????

Duel of the Fates is great in music,and visuals... But storywise it's completely obsolete.


Originally posted by darthmaul1
Wow a movie like Avatar made a bigger impression on you? That was the height of crapfest.
1. which you acknowledged already the story sucked.
2. the visuals IMO were nothing spectacular i saw the same in episodes 1-6!
3. I was transported to other worlds in other movies like Alien and Aliens, star trek, pitch black, total recall, and star wars the same as avatar, if a sci fi movie can't do that then there is a problem.
4. CGI creatures in star wars especially the clone troopers looked better and more believable than the na'vi.
the only thing avatar had going for it was the 3D floating jelly fish and embers. Tron was a better 3D experience (FYI given a choice i would go for a 2 D show)

Avatar was a box office hit... Obviously a lot of people shared my experience of a believable world created by CAmeron. And the Clone Trooper may 'look ' better. Whcih is easy because their armour have no need of natural texturing, the Navi do. But at least the Na'vi have emotions and I was impressed how well that worked. The Clone Troopers are just pawn moved around the board, no emotions, just a cool suit. How dare you compare the two? Nobody is falling in love or arguing with Clone Troopers, emotionally they are dead and therefore storywise not relevant. They have the same relevance as the bows or even the banshees in Avatar. There is no comparison.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
My analysis of Tatooine had more to do with the fact of the statement made about "Oh, Anakin and Obi-Wan don't react to the intesnse heat on Mustafar." What are they supposed to do though? Here's a thought...

"Hang on Obi-Wan...I know we're in the midst of the grandest fight of all time, but I shall be needing a moment to catch my breath from the intense exhausting of this heat." Point is, I far more believe that Anakin and Obi-Wan would be able to fight on a planet like Mustafar, then I'm able to believe that people could survive day after day on a planet like Tatooine.



I made that point to illustrate the difference of how real made-up environments help the actors to act better, which is why I brought up the Terminator references. You're telling me a film company(with perhaps millions of dollars and unlimited areas to receive funding for a project like this) can't re-create the atmosphere on Mustafar? That actors reacting to their environment is worse then sticking them in a ulitarian and bland room with a massive green screen all around them.

Lucas: ' Right Ewan, Hayden, try to imagine in this brightly lit studio with this green screen all around you that you are surrounded by deadly lava, black volcanic rock and debris. We'll tell you when to jump when a jet of molten lava is coming at you, or a column of stone is going to crush you. In the meantime just flail about with your lightsabers for a while (a long while) and keep moving on this specially engineered indoor track. It doesn't matter if you don't react to any of this because its not as if you are ACTUALLY there right? We obviously don't want to give the audience that impression do we?'.

I can do sarcasm too.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Both trilogies jumped around all the time, at least every 5 min there was a scene wipe, and all of the scenes had bearing on all the stories. Please watch the OT and PT again. the scenes simply follow the major characters on their adventure. example, empire was luke, and the falcon and vader and lando.
attack of the clones had anakin doing his thing and obiwan doing his.

How can you say all those characters mean nothing?


Let me explain what I mean. If the the OT was done the way of the PT this would have happened in ANH, or at least possibly.The first part of ANH is structured around two scenes, The space /Star Detroyer scenes and Tattoine. Had this been the PT way, it probably would have added more viewpoints, thus diluting the point of Luke and Leia being the two most important characters in this initial part of the movie.

Maybe it would have crossed over to to Yavin 4 to add unneeded wieght to the story arc of Leia carrying the plans of the Death Star, including a needless fight scene in the process. Or included a needless scene of Han before he arrived at the Mos Eisley Cantina either starting in space or on the planet (fight scene here perhaps?). Or even shots of Alderaan (because we meet this planet later on so we have to go it now) introducing
another scene which distracts from the relevance of the overall plot. Maybe ships would have been launched from Alderaan cueing a CGI space battle.

The PT does do this, it punctuates important scanes with needless battles and especially with the Jedi launching themselves here and there makes a mockery of Windu's own words, 'We can't fight a war for you, we are not soldiers'. Yet that is all they ever do.

I can say the characters mean nothing because they don't, they are created , staged (as if they are essential) and then...discarded. If they were important they would fit into the overall theme of the entire PT and survive throughout, not become 'bosses' or just obstacles to overcome, like - this is a general perception not just mine - a videogame.

Boba Fett- 2 films.
Jabba the Hutt - 2 films (and referenced throughout ESB).
Wedge Antilles - all 3 films.
Lando Calrissian - 2 films.
Captain/Admiral Piett - 2 films.

These supporting and minor characters all play a part and breed familiarity as we move throughout the adventure and that makes them important. The main bad guy(Darth Vader) is the same as we move through the movies, a new one isn't created every movie and then killed off.

Good point and you are so right. Plus all of these guys have a position where they can inlfuence the fate of our heroes, either help or block them in achieving their goals. Some more important, some less...

Boba Fett gets very little screen time, much less than Jango, yet his actions actually make a difference for the fate of our heroes: Han get captured, which causes Luke to cut off his training and endanger himself by falling for Vader's trap. He survives but has to pay with a severed hand.

Jango... well, he is a supplier of DNA for Clones that were ordered... by whom?? Well, I dunno... but fact is, his existance bears no relevance for the story nor for our heroes. Only in a very very very very indirect way. And indeed, he is treated as a major character, much more than his son ever was.

Some goes for Grievous, Dooku, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo-Koon etc etc... They don't matter. Even Mace I think. His action is prolly to grieve Anakin... and then gets killed by him. In no way does he in fact stand in the way of Anakin's progression as a Jedi. He disagree with his training, yet Anakin gets it anyway... WTF? Compared to him Lando is almost a main character, he even has character development. Mace has none of that.

Originally posted by Kazenji
The Clone Troopers did nothing for me for character Na'vi was were more believable to me



Same here.

For me since the na'vi were so blue and big I knew they were cgi and they looked cgi. But the clones could of been guys in suits. A more earthy tone color like jar jar or even the green on yoda is more believable than a bright blue cgi alien

Originally posted by queeq
And there you have the problem: we have to conclude a solution which bears no relevance to the story, has no consequences for the Jedi or Anakin or Ob1. We have to CONCLUDE a POSSIBLE solution for something that is ireelevant. Why shoudl we care whre the clone army came from now?


It doesn't have to be concluded though, that can be part of the movie or reading experience to draw your own conclusions. We have to do the same thing for end of ROTJ and just conclude that the empire gave up.

Originally posted by queeq

Maybe Luke's training was rushed... heck, we didn't know how Jedi were trained then. It's only the PT that made JEdi-ness into a life long training. But the cutting away and back at least gave us the impression it lasted a while. I think according to SW chronology it lasted a few months. But at least his training was lengthened cinematically.

So why was Anakin's fall rushed. Let us analyse.

1. Anakin finds out Palpy is a Sith. He is angry, wants to kill him but Palpy manipulates him out of immediate action.
2. Anakin rushes to Mace, tell him Palpy is the Sith they have been looking for (and ever since his humiliating defeat against a Sith in AOTC his anger would have been strong enough to want to kill him, he loved killing Dooku after all).
3. Anakin angry with the way palpy has manipulated him, says he's the only one who can kill him. But Mace refuses to take him with him.
4. Anakin decides to follow Mace, sees him in battle with Sidious.... and cuts of Mace's hands... Okay, don't quite follow his thinking
4. Then he falls back in near despair, shocked by his action - What have I done???
5. Instead of exacting his revenge on Sidious, he falls down on his knees and pledges allegiance.... WTF?????????
6. Next Palpy tells him: Oh, I don't know how to save people from death but maybe together we can. And Anakin goes: okay, sure, whatever you say, kill younglings, sure no problem.

This is total crapfest. Emotionally and logically this does not make any sense. It's ridiculous. That's why it's rushed. Lucas wants to have him feel the attraction top the dark side, his doubts, a bad action, regret and and final irresistance to the Dark Side all in a couple of minutes.


In the movie lukes training can't be any more than a week.
I already explained this that anakin was already turning and giving into hate starting with the council denying his training in episode 1. And he was torn between being a Jedi and his love for padme, and the only way he thinks he could save her was with palps help.



Originally posted by queeq

THey fight a lot and very long but not much happens beside a lot of jumping around...



Again, looks beautiful but it's long and what it's all about, I have no idea. Whatever the outcome of the fight... it's doesn't seem to have much relevance to the rest of the story. Two thing can happen: either Maul gets defeated or he wis. Well, he dies... so? So Palpy needs a new apprentice... well.... golly, poor man. If he wins, nothing changes because by that time, the viceroy has been take captive.

This fight too: there is no drama in it. Nothing's really at stake during the fight. The only reason we watch this is so QGJ can die... and then, here we have to make a lot of expositionary jumps of thought.... then OB1 will have to train Anakin... so Anakin can go wrong... so Anakin can become Darth vader..... right... he has to become Darth Vader because the OT needs him to be that way, and OB1 will have to train him so we need an excuse... okay.... So QGJ has to die so OB1 can train him and.... fail...???? Well, where do we see that OB1 is a bad teacher, worse than QGJ (who called OB1 much wiser than himself)?????

Duel of the Fates is great in music,and visuals... But storywise it's completely obsolete.



You do know this is the PT right? Most people have seen th OT so we know what will ultimately happen. We just don't know how. But for peolpe that never saw the OT it's all surprise.
I think if maul had won And killed quigon and some how incapacitated obiwan he may of just left or gone to get the viceroy


Originally posted by queeq

Avatar was a box office hit... Obviously a lot of people shared my experience of a believable world created by CAmeron. And the Clone Trooper may 'look ' better. Whcih is easy because their armour have no need of natural texturing, the Navi do. But at least the Na'vi have emotions and I was impressed how well that worked. The Clone Troopers are just pawn moved around the board, no emotions, just a cool suit. How dare you compare the two? Nobody is falling in love or arguing with Clone Troopers, emotionally they are dead and therefore storywise not relevant. They have the same relevance as the bows or even the banshees in Avatar. There is no comparison.

Transformers 2 was a box office hit but it doesn't change the fact it was a piece of shit movie. Yes avatar was a believable world but so were alot of other scifi films and as for the cgi of the na'vi, the clones, jar jar, dex, and of course yoda looked better IMO more believable cause they are not a bright blue.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
It doesn't matter if you don't react to any of this because its not as if you are ACTUALLY there right? We obviously don't want to give the audience that impression do we?'.

I can do sarcasm too.

I still don't get what you're trying to say. What are they supposed to do, turn and look at the lava everytime it shoots up so that we know they're reacting to their environment? Breath a little more heavily so we know that they're hot?

You see, I'm not saying you're wrong, but these are the little things that people nitpick over nothing in my opinion. You're letting the fact that they're not reacting to some noise or heat hamper your ability to enjoy this sequence for what it is, an awesome fight.

Somewhere along the line, movie-goers lost their ability to enjoy movies. Suddenly it became this "oh, it's too CGI, and I don't feel married to any of the characters" and all this stuff...when at one point, you could go to a comedy and laugh without feeling a lot of emotion to a character. You could go to an action film and enjoy it for it's action. Now it's "emotional this and emotional that." People can no longer go to a Star Wars movie and it enjoy as a "Sci-Fi" meaning not all the same rules and principals as our universe apply beacuse *sniff sniff...the characters didn't react to Lava." Darn it man, it's sad.

I don't feel anything for "Ace Ventrua" but I sure as hell laugh my you know what off everytime I watch it. Same with Star Wars...I enjoy all six movies as a Sci-Fi adventure for what they are, even if you never quite connect with every single character.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
I still don't get what you're trying to say. What are they supposed to do, turn and look at the lava everytime it shoots up so that we know they're reacting to their environment? Breath a little more heavily so we know that they're hot?

You see, I'm not saying you're wrong, but these are the little things that people nitpick over nothing in my opinion. You're letting the fact that they're not reacting to some noise or heat hamper your ability to enjoy this sequence for what it is, an awesome fight.

Somewhere along the line, movie-goers lost their ability to enjoy movies. Suddenly it became this "oh, it's too CGI, and I don't feel married to any of the characters" and all this stuff...when at one point, you could go to a comedy and laugh without feeling a lot of emotion to a character. You could go to an action film and enjoy it for it's action. Now it's "emotional this and emotional that." People can no longer go to a Star Wars movie and it enjoy as a "Sci-Fi" meaning not all the same rules and principals as our universe apply beacuse *sniff sniff...the characters didn't react to Lava." Darn it man, it's sad.



Yes, it would help if they reacted to the conditions of their environment, it makes for a more realistic scene. You believe in it all the more if an actor and yourself can both gauge the world in which they interact in.
When the character and the environment are so displaced from each other it disrupts my enjoyment and makes me feel more distanced from whats happening.

Cool effects? yes it is but it doesn't represent any danger to me within the scene. Why couldn't some lava had say spilt onto Anakin or Obi-Wan and have them react in pain, bringing environment and characters into one? Why can't they recoil initially from the intense heat around them, get dusty and dirty from the debris? This all but one example so please, stop saying I dislike the movie just because of the lava scene.

Then you go on to say that emotional attachment is bad. How is it bad? It made the OT iconic and successful because you felt real relationships were born out of this rebellion against the Empire. The best way I can reference this is the scene at the end of ANH, where they have destroyed the Death Star and they meet up at the rebel base, cheering and clapping each other on the back. Genuine emotion, genuine chemistry between the actors. People say the PT doesn't have this because of the situation of the film i.e. war and strife. How is this different to the OT?

Originally posted by darthmaul1
It doesn't have to be concluded though, that can be part of the movie or reading experience to draw your own conclusions. We have to do the same thing for end of ROTJ and just conclude that the empire gave up.

Then what you're saying is that ordering the clone army is not really relevant for the story. But why more than an hour of a whole movie is spent in working out who that was, that is not a problem to you? Weird...

Originally posted by darthmaul1
In the movie lukes training can't be any more than a week.
I already explained this that anakin was already turning and giving into hate starting with the council denying his training in episode 1. And he was torn between being a Jedi and his love for padme, and the only way he thinks he could save her was with palps help.


No, according to SW chronology it lasted several months.

So what you're saying about Anakin is that he always was a dark sider, a bad guy, falling for hate and anger. And there you have the other problem: we never really get to cheer for Anakin as a hero. It makes him as 'greatest starpilot of the universe' and a 'good friend' non-existent in the PT and therefore a lousy main character that we cannot sympathise with.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
You do know this is the PT right? Most people have seen th OT so we know what will ultimately happen. We just don't know how. But for peolpe that never saw the OT it's all surprise.
I think if maul had won And killed quigon and some how incapacitated obiwan he may of just left or gone to get the viceroy

Exactkly my point. The only point to the duel is, with a lot of thtinking through and through and through, the OT. It suggests Anakin falls to the dark side because QGJ doesn't train him. If we don't know about the OT, this fight is absolutely about nothing. Just eye candy.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Transformers 2 was a box office hit but it doesn't change the fact it was a piece of shit movie. Yes avatar was a believable world but so were alot of other scifi films and as for the cgi of the na'vi, the clones, jar jar, dex, and of course yoda looked better IMO more believable cause they are not a bright blue.

No, bright green... and Jar Jar bright orange... so?

Lord Shadow, I didn't say that emotional attachment was bad. Least I don't think I did or used those words, but if it came across that way, I didn't mean for it too.

What I was simply stating was the fact that it's a sci-fi movie made for entertainment purposes, and sometimes people let themselves get too worked up over little things that they overlook the overall intention of the movie. When it comes to a film like say, Die-Hard...I don't remember the character of John McLaren as this 3 dimensional emotionally deep person with all this richness and depth...I remember him as pretty much, a bada$$, and that I had fun watching him shoot the living daylights out of everyone. It's an action film, and I enjoy it as an action film and nothing more. I don't spend the next 12 years of my life questioning what motivation he had to become a cop and why he puts himself through one obstacle after another. I just take it for what it is.

I think you're right when it comes to enchancing the overall scene if characters reacted more to their obstacles. You're not wrong. I'm just saying that I don't let little things like that ruin scenes for me, and that I'm able to take the PT at face value for what it is and enjoy it. They're not the OT of course, but they were never intended to be either, just pretty much a backstory to expand the SW universe.

Pretty much it.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
Yes, it would help if they reacted to the conditions of their environment, it makes for a more realistic scene. You believe in it all the more if an actor and yourself can both gauge the world in which they interact in.
When the character and the environment are so displaced from each other it disrupts my enjoyment and makes me feel more distanced from whats happening.

Cool effects? yes it is but it doesn't represent any danger to me within the scene. Why couldn't some lava had say spilt onto Anakin or Obi-Wan and have them react in pain, bringing environment and characters into one? Why can't they recoil initially from the intense heat around them, get dusty and dirty from the debris? This all but one example so please, stop saying I dislike the movie just because of the lava scene.

Then you go on to say that emotional attachment is bad. How is it bad? It made the OT iconic and successful because you felt real relationships were born out of this rebellion against the Empire. The best way I can reference this is the scene at the end of ANH, where they have destroyed the Death Star and they meet up at the rebel base, cheering and clapping each other on the back. Genuine emotion, genuine chemistry between the actors. People say the PT doesn't have this because of the situation of the film i.e. war and strife. How is this different to the OT?

They were reacting to the environment. They were hot and sweaty and they sure as hell jumped out of the way when the lava erupted and their clothes were chard by end of the fight. take a look at their clothes before and after the fight. Plus I'm pretty sure they were some what using the force to shield themselves and the droids and platforms they were on had shields when they were above the lava pool

Originally posted by queeq
Then what you're saying is that ordering the clone army is not really relevant for the story. But why more than an hour of a whole movie is spent in working out who that was, that is not a problem to you? Weird...

I'm not saying that. Ordering the clone army was totally relevant. This is allows palps to gain control of the war and the republic and bring down the Jedi. And they weren't working it out for an hour. They were questioning who could of ordered it only for a while and then they were given no choice and forced to use them other wise the sepratiats would win.

Originally posted by queeq

No, according to SW chronology it lasted several months.

So what you're saying about Anakin is that he always was a dark sider, a bad guy, falling for hate and anger. And there you have the other problem: we never really get to cheer for Anakin as a hero. It makes him as 'greatest starpilot of the universe' and a 'good friend' non-existent in the PT and therefore a lousy main character that we cannot sympathise with.


MONTHS!!!?? Don't think so a week maybe two at most. No way were Han and the gang on the run for months!

We already know anakins demise so it may be hard for some of us to cheer for him. But for someone who saw the PT first they can. I have to say even though I knew he would turn I was cheering for him in the pod race and while they were chasing zam and fight dooku. Anakin was a good friend if obiwan and he was the greatest star pilot in the galaxy (pod race, speeder chase, and the battle over coruscant all prove this)


Originally posted by queeq


Exactkly my point. The only point to the duel is, with a lot of thtinking through and through and through, the OT. It suggests Anakin falls to the dark side because QGJ doesn't train him. If we don't know about the OT, this fight is absolutely about nothing. Just eye candy.


No if you don't know about the OT that fight does mean some thing. If maul wins, then he would certainly go after the queen etc. Even if knew about the OT the fight still means something cause anything could of happened to turn the tables.

Originally posted by queeq

No, bright green... and Jar Jar bright orange... so?

They are NOT bright. The na'vi are brightly colored.

FYI I would of loved to of seen the reveal of maul being when the doors open he is hacking down a bunch of naboo guards with a single blade then he reveals the double blade (wish they hadn't shown that in the trailers or the toys it would of been so much better)

Originally posted by darthmaul1
I'm not saying that. Ordering the clone army was totally relevant. This is allows palps to gain control of the war and the republic and bring down the Jedi.

Again, wrong. The Clone Army was relevant for Palpy's rise to power. Ordering the clone army is not! And that is what OB1 is after in AOTC - from Jango (the DNA model of the clones) to Kamino (Where clones were made) to who ordered that. All is irrelevant in the end because we never get the answers and the few answers we get (Tyrannus/Dooku hired Jango) leave us completely blank. So AOTC is obsolete. We don't need to know how the Clone Army came about (and we still don't) to see how Palpy sued the Clone Army to rise to power. The fact we watch something like an hour at that is ridiculous.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
MONTHS!!!?? Don't think so a week maybe two at most. No way were Han and the gang on the run for months!


They have to travel to Bespin without lightspeed. That could be a long trip.

I did some looking up and it seems the official LFL time span is six weeks.


Originally posted by darthmaul1
We already know anakins demise so it may be hard for some of us to cheer for him. But for someone who saw the PT first they can. I have to say even though I knew he would turn I was cheering for him in the pod race and while they were chasing zam and fight dooku. Anakin was a good friend if obiwan and he was the greatest star pilot in the galaxy (pod race, speeder chase, and the battle over coruscant all prove this)

The point is: we should be able to cheer for Anakin. That's the drama: a good person chooses for the Dark Side. That was the very reason Lucas always said he wanted to make the PT, to show how certain choices in life may send you off in a good or a bad direction. But all Anakin does is choose for bad things. It should have reflected Luke's life: a promising lad, starts off becomes a hero and gets faced with the choice for good or bad. Luke chose good, Anakin chose bad.

But since Anakin got mad at ten, he was grumpy ever since. He never grew into a consciencuously good adult who then chose for bad. He was bad before he hit puberty.

And that we cannot cheer for Anakin is the major failure of the PT, it was THE challenge and Lucas failed.

Anakin was NOT a good friend.... We never see him as a 'good friend', and therefore cinematically he isn't. They talk about good times, but what we see is Anakin complaining about OB1, disobeying him and arguing with him in a condescending way. I don't know about your friends, but I wouldn't like people like that as my friend.


Originally posted by darthmaul1
No if you don't know about the OT that fight does mean some thing. If maul wins, then he would certainly go after the queen etc. Even if knew about the OT the fight still means something cause anything could of happened to turn the tables.

Anything yes... anything. But in a movie we need to KNOW what's at stake. Apart from a 'revenge on the Jedi' for no clear reason, there is nothing at stake. Only that maybe some other things MIGHT happen... And why would Maul go after the queen??? He is an attack dog, trained to kill. Palpy doesn't want the queen to die, she has to sign some kind of weird treaty.... That's not a job for Maul... The only reason Maul is there to have revenge on the Jedi... for some reason, we don't really know why he wants revenge... TPM or any of the other movies don't tell us.

You just pointed out the weakness of the fight yourself: it's not clear what's at stake, so why do we need to care?

Do you expect them to show up at kamenio and a clone army is created and they just say thanks? We do get the answers, but you have to think about it and peice it together which may be difficult for some. Syfo Dias (dooku) ordered the clones and hired jango. All this becomes clear when palps executes order 66. It's at that point especially if you haven't seen the OT that you find out he is the one behind the clone order.

6 weeks is not months it's a month and a half.

We are able to cheer for anakin! As I said in the pod race the space battle, speeder chase, on geonosis in the arena and against dooku etc. He does make good choices, he falls in love and gets married and has kids.
Anakin wasn't bad from 10 he was just a little pissed. It's not as if as soon as he became a padawan he started hacking everyone down with his light saber.

Anakin was a good friend. him and obiwan were together for 10 years! And had many adventures. Which a few are shown in ep 2 and 3

Jebus!! We do know what is at stake! Its the future of naboo and the queen. Maul was ordered to find the queen in the first place and take her to naboo to sign the treaty. So if he were to of killed the Jedi he would of taken care of the guards and got to the queen.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Do you expect them to show up at kamenio and a clone army is created and they just say thanks? We do get the answers, but you have to think about it and peice it together which may be difficult for some. Syfo Dias (dooku) ordered the clones and hired jango. All this becomes clear when palps executes order 66. It's at that point especially if you haven't seen the OT that you find out he is the one behind the clone order.

It will somewhat get clear for people who watch closer. But people who don't think: WTF. And we look at it closer, it's kinda boring.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
6 weeks is not months it's a month and a half.

It's not two weeks either.

There was a certain consensus for a while it lasted three months. But hey, we don't really know.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
We are able to cheer for anakin! As I said in the pod race the space battle, speeder chase, on geonosis in the arena and against dooku etc. He does make good choices, he falls in love and gets married and has kids.
Anakin wasn't bad from 10 he was just a little pissed. It's not as if as soon as he became a padawan he started hacking everyone down with his light saber.

Anakin was a good friend. him and obiwan were together for 10 years! And had many adventures. Which a few are shown in ep 2 and 3

In the pod race he's just a kid. A little boy, who doesn't really choose. He just does it coz he likes it.

After that Anakin is just an arrogant brat who thinks he's the greatest, should have more freedom and constantly and unwisely demonstrates he's extremely cocky. What's to cheer about?

And his choices? He chooses Padme because.... well, we don't know. All we get is that he's had the hots for her since he was ten even though he hasn't seen her since... bizarre.

OB1 and Anakin were together because the council put them together, not because they chose to. Again: we don't SEE the good friendship. What we SEE is that they don't get along. They TALK about 'fun' adventures, but talk is talk and this is a movie. The rest is boring talk and exposition.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Jebus!! We do know what is at stake! Its the future of naboo and the queen. Maul was ordered to find the queen in the first place and take her to naboo to sign the treaty. So if he were to of killed the Jedi he would of taken care of the guards and got to the queen.

And then what? We don't know what's at stake.... What was the treaty exactly? What was it about? That the trade federation could trade on Naboo??? And if she did sign, Naboo would be in danger because... ???
And if Maul had survived he would have gone to the queen with his big double lighsabre, lean over her, growl and.... make her sign a treaty!!! OOOoooooooohhh..... how scary...... I can't bear to watch...

Come on, dude. You're entitled to like it but you gotta admit it's all kinda lame.

Sorry I don't have to admit it's lame. Cause I don't think it's. I really enjoyed the PT and thought it was like the OT with great effects and great story telling and done by a guy with a wonderful imagination. The way it turned out was fine. It was palps plan all along to be able to become chancellor. But I don't think he intended to loose maul.

Originally posted by queeq
And his choices? He chooses Padme because.... well, we don't know. All we get is that he's had the hots for her since he was ten even though he hasn't seen her since... bizarre.

Actually, it seems pretty reasonable to me, for a number of reasons. Anakin comes from a dirty, dusty, hostile planet who's probably never seen anyone so clean and as beautiful as Padme. Notice Luke's reaction when he's sees the holigram of Leia for the first time..."Who is she? She's beautiful." Sure, he doesn't drool all over her, but he gazes at her and is obviously taken away by her beauty.

For Anakin, Pamde was the first time he'd ever seen something so georgous in his life, hence why he ask her if she's an Angel. After this moment, his life completely changes by becoming a Jedi, so it's likely that Padme, along with his mother, was one of the fondest memories he had before leaving his home behind to persue his dreams. Therefore, he builds an attachment to her.

There are things about my life that I have not done in over 10 years, and people I havent seen in over 10 years, that I still care a great deal about because of an attachment I made to it, or memories I have of it.

Originally posted by queeq
Good point and you are so right. Plus all of these guys have a position where they can inlfuence the fate of our heroes, either help or block them in achieving their goals. Some more important, some less...

Boba Fett gets very little screen time, much less than Jango, yet his actions actually make a difference for the fate of our heroes: Han get captured, which causes Luke to cut off his training and endanger himself by falling for Vader's trap. He survives but has to pay with a severed hand.

We can say the same of many characters. Pick any "behind the shadows" character from the PT and it fits your requirement for an interesting character.

Originally posted by queeq
Jango... well, he is a supplier of DNA for Clones that were ordered... by whom?? Well, I dunno... but fact is, his existance bears no relevance for the story nor for our heroes. Only in a very very very very indirect way. And indeed, he is treated as a major character, much more than his son ever was.


1. Bobba Fett got plenty of screen time in Episode II. As did Bobba Fett. The times were almost equal.

2. Jango Fett directly influenced the plot in a very huge way: the friggin' clone army.

3. We don't know who ordered them? That was a mystery element that was not resolved until it was revealed that a now called Darth Tyranus had placed the order. It was an excellent plot point and created a nice little mystery for the diverged plots of Obi Wan and Anakin.

4. Without his existence, we wouldn't have the clone army patterned after the most talented, clever, and powerful mandalorian in the galaxy, we wouldn't have an insta-army to battle the serparatist droid army, and the separatists would have rolled over the republic. The entire plot leading up the empire's creation would have completely fallen apart. Guess what that means? No original trilogy because we have no emperor ruling the empire: we have the separatists ruling instead causing palpitine's plot to completely fail. My my, doesn't Jango look awfully important, now?

Originally posted by queeq
Some goes for Grievous, Dooku, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo-Koon etc etc... They don't matter. Even Mace I think. His action is prolly to grieve Anakin... and then gets killed by him. In no way does he in fact stand in the way of Anakin's progression as a Jedi. He disagree with his training, yet Anakin gets it anyway... WTF? Compared to him Lando is almost a main character, he even has character development. Mace has none of that.


1. I can make a list like that, too, just from Episode IV: General Dodonna, General Willard, Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru, Grand Moff Tarkin, Greedo, Red 2-4, etc. etc.

2. Why would a Jedi Master and Council Member receive character development? You'd think that the top of a religious order that focuses on control of the mind, thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc. would have a character cemented in their personalities and experience little to no character dynamics, right? I mean, to give them some sort of character dynamic would actually be illogical and create a source of a plot hole: which the anti-PT folks would also complain about. Mace should NOT have seen character development: he should have been a solid bastion of the epitome of controlled Jedi power of which he was. Only a meddling brat, which was absolutely necessary for the fall to the dark side, could take out that power-house. Mace's character was one of the absolute best things about the PT and the PT era. Of all the things you could complain about, Mace is one of the last things that you should find fault with.

3. Anakin got trained is a problem for you? Why aren't you criticizing Luke's training, who was MUCH older and far less mold-able than Anakin, for the same reason's you criticizing Anakin's predicament?


Originally posted by darthmaul1
Sorry I don't have to admit it's lame. Cause I don't think it's. I really enjoyed the PT and thought it was like the OT with great effects and great story telling and done by a guy with a wonderful imagination. The way it turned out was fine. It was palps plan all along to be able to become chancellor. But I don't think he intended to loose maul.

You're correct. He did not intend to lose Maul but it was accounted for. Palpy had back-up plan after Back-up plan. Maul was supposed to defeat Gin and Obi and then lead the separatist army.

Also, ditto on the PT. I love them both and they are both delicious movie masterpieces.

Originally posted by queeq
Again, wrong. The Clone Army was relevant for Palpy's rise to power. Ordering the clone army is not! And that is what OB1 is after in AOTC - from Jango (the DNA model of the clones) to Kamino (Where clones were made) to who ordered that. All is irrelevant in the end because we never get the answers and the few answers we get (Tyrannus/Dooku hired Jango) leave us completely blank. So AOTC is obsolete. We don't need to know how the Clone Army came about (and we still don't) to see how Palpy sued the Clone Army to rise to power. The fact we watch something like an hour at that is ridiculous.

That makes absolutely no sense.

We don't need to know where Palps got thousands of highly trained and armed soldiers from so he could wage a war he frabricated, so he could win the hearts and minds of the Jedi with them, so he could get them to trust them so much that order 66 would be effective, so he could use them to take over and create the empire, so he could create the back drop for how he rose to power for the most excellent OT, right? We don't need any of that information. We should just wish thousands of highly capable and equipped soldiers out of thin air for the sake of progression the plot, right?

You're not making sense.

Shit was getting real and Obi-Wan had to get to the bottom of it. Obi-Wan was just a pawn of Palpy and he played right into Palpy's plans. The Clone Army is SUPER DUPER important to the entire plot of Star Wars. Without them, we have no plot after epsidoe one, making all remaining 5 movies obsolete.

But OB1 DIDN'T get to the bottom of this.

And I repeat: the Clone Army was important to the plot of Star Wars, how it was ordered or whose DNA it was, IS NOT! It has no effect to the heroes. Remember, this story is about Anakin... no one else.

How does the ordering of the Clone Army by Sifo Dyas affect Anakin's story?
How does Jango affect Anakin's story? He never even meets the guy, nor does the guy do anything for Anakin's story arc. Nothing at all?
How does Grievous affect Anakin's story? Hardly?
Even Dooku... how does he affect Anakin's story? Maybe he speeds up his fall... maybe.... because the very reason he decides to join Palps has nothing to do with Dooku, it has to do with Padme.

If anything, the PT is so cramped with so many storylines, it's so very ambitious that it fails to make it comprehensive. I mean, we know how most of these things are connected, but many non-SW fans failed to appreciate the films, with the excepetion of ROTS. Most of what Lucas is trying to tell deludes an average viewer, and it's not like we're watching War and Peace or anything.

SW is supposed to be simple. Now it's cramped with a lot of stuff and the main story arc has become simplistic. Anakin's story is weak... very weak. There's a lot of great eye candy, the PT has its moments, but on the whole it's just too much non-essential details and too uninspired.

Originally posted by dadudemon


2. Why would a Jedi Master and Council Member receive character development? You'd think that the top of a religious order that focuses on control of the mind, thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc. would have a character cemented in their personalities and experience little to no character dynamics, right? I mean, to give them some sort of character dynamic would actually be illogical and create a source of a plot hole: which the anti-PT folks would also complain about. Mace should NOT have seen character development: he should have been a solid bastion of the epitome of controlled Jedi power of which he was. Only a meddling brat, which was absolutely necessary for the fall to the dark side, could take out that power-house. Mace's character was one of the absolute best things about the PT and the PT era. Of all the things you could complain about, Mace is one of the last things that you should find fault with.



Possibly to help them become 'guardians of peace and justice' would be a start. It would be quite handy to ascribe to 'good' emotions in order to know that they are doing right by the universe they are watching over. If they are taught to control all emotion like a Vulcan (a similar emotion suppressing race), then they are inevitably are going to come up against barriers which goes against their role in the long run.

If they spend all that time in the movie being so staid and controlled in their emotions how can they deal with issues that require emotional guidance when they themselves are more logical thinking?. As we saw with the film Equilibrium suppressing emotion only de-sensitized humans to the point where they didn't consider what they doing to be 'bad'.

Mace was boring... zero warmth and completely contradictory, he argues that the Jedi can't fight wars and they...do. He doesn't want Anakin to be trained but he lets him, he thinks Anakin's untrustworthy but he trusts him, he goes from a calm, logical, neutral looking Jedi and turns into an aggressive fight-starting policeman (see also Obi-Wan, Yoda). What happened to this calm considered religious order you speak of? Or peaceful zen like religion that considered warriors/war to not be 'great'. Funny how Mace, Qui-Gon, Anakin, PT-Yoda and and PT-Obi-Wan (handing Anakin his lightsaber in AOTC and saying 'this is your life!' hmm.) failed to get this message when they ran into every battle as if they couldn't wait. Very controlled, peace loving folk...

When something new and influencial takes the world by storm as the original SW did, it's quite easy to overlook the problems until 16 years later, an addition to that series is added and it's not what you were expecting to get.

We then nitpick over little things that we can easily draw comparisons to the original one as well, it's as simple as that.

I don't feel like I ever understood why Vader was following orders from Tarken. Leia says that she was expecting Vader to be on Tarken's leash. Well, I could rant all night and day and say that they should have kept Tarken in Empire and Jedi, just like people say Maul should have stayed in all 3 movies. But he didn't...whatever.

Why doesn't Luke cry when he sees his Aun't and Uncle's burnt corpses lying on the ground. He shows zero emotion except puts his head down, then looks back up. Not only would I be tramatized at seeing something like that, let alone horrified, I would most definitely be crying if I saw my guardians in that condition.

I can make a laundry list of problems I have with the OT....just because they're the originals, doesn't mean they don't have problems like the PT does. The problem is people refusing to accept the PT for what it is and holding it up against the OT and looking for the dumbest things to complain about.

I guess I forgot that somewhere along the line, 70 percent of movie goers became infatuated with only liking a movie so long as the story was absolutely perfect and they could relate to all 500 characters. Why is it when we go to a comedy, we can enjoy the movie for being a comedy and laugh, even though we might not build some enormous relationship with any character. We enjoy a horror movie like "Scream" because it scares us, even though the plot is extremely shallow...basically "good girl vs. serial killer" and nothing more. Yeah, we know who to root for, but it's not like the plot was overly amazing, yet we can enjoy that for what it is.

So why can't we realize the Prequels aren't and never will be the OT, and not nitpick over things that really don't change our lives one way or another because it's a sci-fi entertainment film meant to show off colorful worlds, flashy effects, and simply show the backstory behind a lot of what we heard about in the OT?

Having Anakin as a boy was far from the wrong decision. You can understand what George was trying to do with that...establishing that he was once and innocent child like everyone else, forced under slavery. Don't say that, "Well, we could have just heard about him being a slave" because the common arugument I'm hearing here is that "If George tells us about it but doesn't show it, we can't make a connection to it." People just went about refusing to accept that there was a kid in the film because "oh, the OT didn't have any kids!" So what? It had annoying robots and a furry guy that knows only how to shoot blasters and pilot ships.

Bottom line is, I think we're getting to a point where we're all just gonna have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by queeq
But OB1 DIDN'T get to the bottom of this.

And I repeat: the Clone Army was important to the plot of Star Wars, how it was ordered or whose DNA it was, IS NOT! It has no effect to the heroes. Remember, this story is about Anakin... no one else.



you are right OB1 didn't get to the bottom of this, cause he never got the chance to apprehend Jango, and then he was killed. and the republic was forced to use the clones anyway, but the audience still knew who ordered it.

How it was ordered and by who, is important cause it shows that it was Palps idea and he is the one in control and it eventually effects all the heroes, once order 66 comes into play. and who's DNA it is, is important too cause it creates a tie to the OT with Boba and with certain things that he and the stormtroopers do in the OT. (stormtrooper hitting his head in EP4 and Boba not falling for the falcon in the garbage dump)

Originally posted by queeq

How does the ordering of the Clone Army by Sifo Dyas affect Anakin's story?
How does Jango affect Anakin's story? He never even meets the guy, nor does the guy do anything for Anakin's story arc. Nothing at all?
How does Grievous affect Anakin's story? Hardly?
Even Dooku... how does he affect Anakin's story? Maybe he speeds up his fall... maybe.... because the very reason he decides to join Palps has nothing to do with Dooku, it has to do with Padme.


Not every point or character in the movie has to affect Anakin, but it all has a bearing on the movie or movies as a whole.
Jango did indirectly affect anakin cause he was the one trying to kill padme.
Dooku did affect anakin at the end in EPII and at the beginning of ep III, he did have an influence.

could some of the character interactions been done better yes
, like maul should of survived till the beginning of epIII

I would of loved to have seen Boba (who has gone back to kameino to genetically age himself 10 years) with Anakin attacking the jedi temple and taking the braids to hang on his shoulder( i know in the books they are suppose to be wookie scalps) but jedi braids would be better and more meaningful in the movie universe.

Originally posted by queeq

If anything, the PT is so cramped with so many storylines, it's so very ambitious that it fails to make it comprehensive. I mean, we know how most of these things are connected, but many non-SW fans failed to appreciate the films, with the excepetion of ROTS. Most of what Lucas is trying to tell deludes an average viewer, and it's not like we're watching War and Peace or anything.


So many story lines? It's about how anakin becomes vader and how palps comes to power. the OT is about anakin again and luke becoming a jedi and at the end of ROTJ the fall of the empire.


Originally posted by queeq

SW is supposed to be simple. Now it's cramped with a lot of stuff and the main story arc has become simplistic.

It's suppose to be simple? and it has become simplistic? K. that doesn't make sense.

I'll be the first to admit the PT wasn't perfect but neither was the OT when i watch it now. But when i still watch them all now they make me feel good and remember being a kid and just having fun with the movie and forgetting about all the sh1t that is going on in this craptacular world and wish i could just hop in the falcon and leave.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
I'll be the first to admit the PT wasn't perfect but neither was the OT when i watch it now. But when i still watch them all now they make me feel good and remember being a kid and just having fun with the movie and forgetting about all the sh1t that is going on in this craptacular world and wish i could just hop in the falcon and leave.

This entire paragraph just may be the very first time I've read someone else sharing the exact same thoughts about Star Wars as myself.

Pretty much the same way I view it. I have fun with the movie because it's just a movie...and well, I've seen far more movies that are worse than the PT. The PT will always be a failure to the majority of people based on the simple fact of it being compared to the originals.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
This entire paragraph just may be the very first time I've read someone else sharing the exact same thoughts about Star Wars as myself.

Pretty much the same way I view it. I have fun with the movie because it's just a movie...and well, I've seen far more movies that are worse than the PT. The PT will always be a failure to the majority of people based on the simple fact of it being compared to the originals.

Feel the same as you with your comment on the top of the page.
People seem to think the OT is flawless but it's not. But if the movie is made correctly and you can let your mind go and beileve the world you are watching then anything is possible and you can have a blast watching it. A prime example for me from 2009 would be Gi Joe (highly entertaining and well put together) and transformers 2 (entertaining for the first 10min then fell apart with annoying characters both human and transformer and crap jokes that took you out of the movie)

Well, why didn't the PT make an impact like the OT did? It's not like times have changed so much that movies can't make a huge impact did.

THe Matrix did 1999... also a very flawed movie, but it made an impact by combining an idea that had been done before in a completely new form. People were going nuts over it, the effects were new, it had a look. And yet. the Matrix too is a very talky picture. But somehow it's more alive than the PT, simply because everything comes down to one things: what is the matrix?

Lord of the Rings. Well, I guess I don't have to explain the worldwide impact these three movies made. Even their CG Gollum is much much more convincing than Jar Jar or Dexter Jettster... And this was made by a couple of guys in New Zealand, not by the great and mighty ILM

And then there was Avatar, also flawed storywise, but it had originality and a convincing new world.

You gotta be honest here: the PT made nowhere near as much as an impact as these movies did. And yet, the OT did. I think it has to do with the very muddled storyline, unconvincing characters and very little room to sympathise with your main heroes, because they make no sense.

Let me try to sum this up. I sai SW is supposed to be simple. And the PT simplistic in the way it seems to think the audience is studip (ya know, Jedi being passive and emotionless, contradictory to not fighting wars while that's all we see them do, an Anakin who is angry from the start, very little character development etc etc). But simple means a simple plot line so it's clear what's ats stake.

Let's see the list then:

3. ANH - it's about destroying the death star, the new universe's super weapon than can destroy planets
4. ESB - it's about the heroes trying to survive (Luke goes into training because now Vader knows who he is, he needs to be equipped against that power)
5. ROTJ - it's about destroying the 2nd death star and the entire empire

Everything that happens in the OT movies is in service of reaching that goal. There is character development, the heroes change. After each movie they have grown, they are not the same people they were at the beginning of each film.

Now, let's switch to the PT

1. TPM - it's about getting a Trade Federation blockade to go away or a treaty not being signed... or something
2. AOTC - it's about finding the one who tried to assisinate Padme, the discovery of a clone army and about Anakin falling in love (and yes, we all know how well that was done... NOT)
3. ROTS - it's about a revenge from Sith (who we still don't know from the movies themselves who they are and why they hate the Jedi so much) but mostly about Anakin's fall to the Dark Side... (and about a general Grievous that needs to be killed, the separatists that need to be stopped etc etc.)

THe PT is has no simple storylines, it's not very clear why these people do all this stuff? Decisions seem to be made at random and Jedi don't seem very smart, like having Anakin spy on Palpy while we found out later that they can just access the security camera's in Palpy's office... why send Anakin???? - oh yes, he has to fall to the dark side so that's why the Jedi send him... That (and many other examples like that) make the PT simplistic, like we're stupid or something.

Of course the OT is not perfect, but it has energy, dynamic, emotion and it doesn't try to be more than it is: a simple fun ride that is filled with emotion, action and a great used-future look (another weird decision: why the heck did Lucas ever abandon this concept???)

Originally posted by Sith Master X
I don't feel like I ever understood why Vader was following orders from Tarken. Leia says that she was expecting Vader to be on Tarken's leash. Well, I could rant all night and day and say that they should have kept Tarken in Empire and Jedi, just like people say Maul should have stayed in all 3 movies. But he didn't...whatever.

Why doesn't Luke cry when he sees his Aun't and Uncle's burnt corpses lying on the ground. He shows zero emotion except puts his head down, then looks back up. Not only would I be tramatized at seeing something like that, let alone horrified, I would most definitely be crying if I saw my guardians in that condition.

I guess I forgot that somewhere along the line, 70 percent of movie goers became infatuated with only liking a movie so long as the story was absolutely perfect and they could relate to all 500 characters. Why is it when we go to a comedy, we can enjoy the movie for being a comedy and laugh, even though we might not build some enormous relationship with any character. We enjoy a horror movie like "Scream" because it scares us, even though the plot is extremely shallow...basically "good girl vs. serial killer" and nothing more. Yeah, we know who to root for, but it's not like the plot was overly amazing, yet we can enjoy that for what it is.

Having Anakin as a boy was far from the wrong decision. You can understand what George was trying to do with that...establishing that he was once and innocent child like everyone else, forced under slavery. Don't say that, "Well, we could have just heard about him being a slave" because the common arugument I'm hearing here is that "If George tells us about it but doesn't show it, we can't make a connection to it." People just went about refusing to accept that there was a kid in the film because "oh, the OT didn't have any kids!" So what? It had annoying robots and a furry guy that knows only how to shoot blasters and pilot ships.



Vader probably deferred to Tarkin because it was Tarkin's command ship and therefore his right to rule in that situation. Vader just generally does what he likes anyway and in the next movies he's speaking to the Emperor direct via holo-link so you would draw the conclusion that he is the Emperor's right hand man overall.

The reason why Luke may not have been so emotional may have been the fact that he probably had already known what the stormtroopers would have done by now considering the slaughtered Jawas. He just had to see for himself and had probably steeled himself for whatever was waiting for him.

I'm not saying the OT is perfect but this is what happens when you do one part of a saga heavily focused on emotion, spiritualism, friendship and clearly defined good vs evil themes and then create a prequel that doesn't mesh with what you did first and is purely 'entertainment' as you say. Its has to mesh because it's not a re-imagining, its parts 1,2,3 outlining events that HAVE to correspond to 4,5,6 (in my opinion visually correspond). Lucas strengthens this notion by adding PT things into the re-releases of the OT, trying to almost bully them into fitting and failing in the process.

To use your analogy of a horror movie say I made three horror movies that are emotional, full of friendship and excellent character development and progression. People love them, want to know more about the origin of these characters. I say fine, make three prequel movies but jam a lot of violence and action sequences into it, forget the old school model-making (Tom Savini style!!) I used for the previous movies and just totally layer it with CGI, totally destroying the vision and the connection between the two movies. It wouldn't work and I would be rightly criticised for being sloppy/lazy.

In a way having Anakin as a kid may not have been bad but to have him meet Padme as a kid was. He may have considered her pretty but to start their relationship like that was weird. No adult or young adult(Padme) would consider forming a relationship with someone who they knew as a child(Anakin). It just doesn't work, its like the movie just throws morals out of the window.

Originally posted by queeq
Of course the OT is not perfect, but it has energy, dynamic, emotion and it doesn't try to be more than it is: a simple fun ride that is filled with emotion, action and a great used-future look (another weird decision: why the heck did Lucas ever abandon this concept???)

When you speak of the used-future look I can't help thinking of Firefly/ Serenity and how they did this perfectly. It was this care-worn universe that didn't really ascribe to the usual sci-fi/fantasy rules e.g. aliens, laser weapons, an unexplainable proplusion system for ships. Okay they used CGI but only for space scenes and for other brief gimmicks but the film and series had cool environments and sets and in contrast to the SW PT you always felt you were somewhere real.

I don't know why he felt he had to almost create a different look to everything... ships, blasters or even introduce more alien races in almost every scene. Why couldn't he use the original Star Destroyers, TIE fighters and X-Wing models or the same look of the stormtroopers and Imperial troops? Would have communicated from the beginning that they were all part of one massive fleet/army and as Palpatine wrested control they were forced to serve under the Empire. Then say the rebels steal the designs for the prototype X-Wing and develop it as their ship.

That would have been cool!!

The sad irony is is that using effects makes the ships (and most of everything else, including some of the droids) in the PT look more advanced than the ships in the OT even though the PT is meant to be the past. This even happened when they made the Star Trek: Enterprise prequel series, the Enterprise NX-01 looks more advanced than the the NCC-0701 from the original series. Although with the JJ Abrams film it's okay because that is a complete re-hash of the franchise.

The PT didn't make as such a big impact because we had seen it before in the OT. And when the OT came out we were younger and more impressionable and nothing like it had ever been seen before ever! There were a few things in the PT that impressed me. The cgi, pod race, darth maul fight scene, speeder chase, clone war, yoda fighting, battle over coruscant, and battle on mustafar.

Some of the cgi of golumn isn't good and the war rogs in tt arent very good.
Avatar did not have originality. It was the matrix with dance with Indians.

The PT is just that a prequel and it is telling the back story that most of use know the outcome to.
Ep1 is about finding anakin and palps rise to power
Ep2 again is about palps rise to power and Anakin and padme
Ep3 anakins fall and the sith coming into power and the fall of the republic.
Seems pretty simple to me.
I will have to see what video cameras you are talking about.
"the ot has a great used future look, why did Lucas abandon this concept?"
You have missed the point of the PT then. It was to show us the republic and Jedi in all it's glory in a more civilized day. Where everything is perfect and clean and neat.
The OT is suppose to be used future look cause of the control of the empire and the rebels are using old battered ships from 20 years ago.

Originally posted by queeq
But OB1 DIDN'T get to the bottom of this.

And I repeat: the Clone Army was important to the plot of Star Wars, how it was ordered or whose DNA it was, IS NOT! It has no effect to the heroes. Remember, this story is about Anakin... no one else.

How does the ordering of the Clone Army by Sifo Dyas affect Anakin's story?
How does Jango affect Anakin's story? He never even meets the guy, nor does the guy do anything for Anakin's story arc. Nothing at all?
How does Grievous affect Anakin's story? Hardly?
Even Dooku... how does he affect Anakin's story? Maybe he speeds up his fall... maybe.... because the very reason he decides to join Palps has nothing to do with Dooku, it has to do with Padme.

If anything, the PT is so cramped with so many storylines, it's so very ambitious that it fails to make it comprehensive. I mean, we know how most of these things are connected, but many non-SW fans failed to appreciate the films, with the excepetion of ROTS. Most of what Lucas is trying to tell deludes an average viewer, and it's not like we're watching War and Peace or anything.

SW is supposed to be simple. Now it's cramped with a lot of stuff and the main story arc has become simplistic. Anakin's story is weak... very weak. There's a lot of great eye candy, the PT has its moments, but on the whole it's just too much non-essential details and too uninspired.


Meh.

I think you're too damn sexy to argue about this with. I'll leave it be.

BUT I LURV THE PT! SNARF SNARF!

AAAAHM SEXY!!

Originally posted by darthmaul1
The PT is just that a prequel and it is telling the back story that most of use know the outcome to.
Ep1 is about finding anakin and palps rise to power
Ep2 again is about palps rise to power and Anakin and padme
Ep3 anakins fall and the sith coming into power and the fall of the republic.
Seems pretty simple to me.


Ah but it isn't...

THe PT is about Naboo and the blockade the Trade Federation has set up. That's the main plot point, the main problem that has to be cleared up by Jedi, Jar Jar, Padme, Bibble, Palpy, the Senate, Valorium, the Neimodians etc etc... As this is the problem that's to be solved we learn about Anakin and how a Palpatine becomes chancellor...

Ep2 IS about finding the one behind the assasination of Padme, and clones, and libraries, and Dooku and Jango and more Senate and if a Clone army shoudl be used in the fight against the separatists, of and separatists... the republic in decay etc etc... But the main issue is to find the people who ordered the assasination ( we don't even find this out until ROTS when it's no longer relevant) and then where the clone army came from... Which we know only indirectly is solved.

It's not simple... it's amess.


Originally posted by darthmaul1

You have missed the point of the PT then. It was to show us the republic and Jedi in all it's glory in a more civilized day. Where everything is perfect and clean and neat.
The OT is suppose to be used future look cause of the control of the empire and the rebels are using old battered ships from 20 years ago.

You missed the point of George Lucas' 'used future' then. When Lucas made THX-1138, a very sterile futuristic world where everything emotional was kinda dulled by the system - everything was white, Lucas insisted on scratch marks on machines, even the pristine white walls had a little smudge where someone had bumped into. His point was (and this translated well into SW) that however new something is, it's always being used and therefore gets damaged, scratched etc... Even your brand new hummer can have bird sh!t on it... That was the point.

In the PT Lucas totally abandoned the very concept he once devised to prevent a science fiction film from being too pristine, too clean, too dead and made the PT world quite sterile. There is no argument of saying the PT universe is perfect (which it isn't at all - it's called Star WARS still,. right...) and therefore everything has to look unused. It goes against the very concept Lucas himself once devised. A look that made SW stand out from everything that had been done before and seriously influenced SF after it. See Alien, See Blade Runner etc etc.

The PT has no look that will influence any other films. It has no memorable quotes, it doesn't have iconic scenes... There just more of SW in the PT way.

And that's fine, but it's arguably a missed opportunity for something new.

Originally posted by queeq
AAAAHM SEXY!!




Ah but it isn't...

THe PT is about Naboo and the blockade the Trade Federation has set up. That's the main plot point, the main problem that has to be cleared up by Jedi, Jar Jar, Padme, Bibble, Palpy, the Senate, Valorium, the Neimodians etc etc... As this is the problem that's to be solved we learn about Anakin and how a Palpatine becomes chancellor...

Ep2 IS about finding the one behind the assasination of Padme, and clones, and libraries, and Dooku and Jango and more Senate and if a Clone army shoudl be used in the fight against the separatists, of and separatists... the republic in decay etc etc... But the main issue is to find the people who ordered the assasination ( we don't even find this out until ROTS when it's no longer relevant) and then where the clone army came from... Which we know only indirectly is solved.

It's not simple... it's amess.



You can say the same for the OT too, but the underlying story still revolves around vader and luke and the empire and all the points we have seen are relevant.

Originally posted by queeq

You missed the point of George Lucas' 'used future' then. When Lucas made THX-1138, a very sterile futuristic world where everything emotional was kinda dulled by the system - everything was white, Lucas insisted on scratch marks on machines, even the pristine white walls had a little smudge where someone had bumped into. His point was (and this translated well into SW) that however new something is, it's always being used and therefore gets damaged, scratched etc... Even your brand new hummer can have bird sh!t on it... That was the point.

In the PT Lucas totally abandoned the very concept he once devised to prevent a science fiction film from being too pristine, too clean, too dead and made the PT world quite sterile. There is no argument of saying the PT universe is perfect (which it isn't at all - it's called Star WARS still,. right...) and therefore everything has to look unused. It goes against the very concept Lucas himself once devised. A look that made SW stand out from everything that had been done before and seriously influenced SF after it. See Alien, See Blade Runner etc etc.

The PT has no look that will influence any other films. It has no memorable quotes, it doesn't have iconic scenes... There just more of SW in the PT way.

And that's fine, but it's arguably a missed opportunity for something new.

Sorry you are wrong! Lucas said himself and i'm pretty sure it's in the documentaries that the OT was old used ships and for the PT he wanted to use new clean pristine ships and locations within the republic, that is why when you get to tatooine things look old and bashed because it's outside the republic.

doesn't have any iconic scenes? what about the light saber battle at the end of ep1 and yoda fighting and the final duel between anakin and obi-wan?

USed future is an idea by Lucas.... Lucas said that however new stuff was, it would always be used by people. For the PT he obviously changed his idea. there's no question about it. I just wonder why??? It is so contradictory to what he used to say... before the Dark Times... before the PT.


And no, in the OT the storylines are all focussed on one thing.

R2 with the DS plans comes to tatooine, gets bought by Luke's family and escapes to find OB1. Luke has to follow him, finds out about the plans and decides to escort OB1 to return the plans. Han Solo is their vehicly to Alderaan where the plans should be delivered. Obstacle: Alderaan is blown up and they get captured. They have to escape, take the princess who sent the plans in the first place with them and go to Yavin V where the plans are analysed and the attack is devised: clean, simple, to the point and it all focusses on one thing: destroying the DS.

Same goes for ESB and ROTJ. Not for the PT because a lot is totally irrelevant.

Originally posted by queeq
USed future is an idea by Lucas.... Lucas said that however new stuff was, it would always be used by people. For the PT he obviously changed his idea. there's no question about it. I just wonder why??? It is so contradictory to what he used to say... before the Dark Times... before the PT.


And no, in the OT the storylines are all focussed on one thing.

R2 with the DS plans comes to tatooine, gets bought by Luke's family and escapes to find OB1. Luke has to follow him, finds out about the plans and decides to escort OB1 to return the plans. Han Solo is their vehicly to Alderaan where the plans should be delivered. Obstacle: Alderaan is blown up and they get captured. They have to escape, take the princess who sent the plans in the first place with them and go to Yavin V where the plans are analysed and the attack is devised: clean, simple, to the point and it all focusses on one thing: destroying the DS.

Same goes for ESB and ROTJ. Not for the PT because a lot is totally irrelevant.

He did it to make the things in the PT appear new as this was the height of the republic. But you can see where the rebels got the xwings and awings from and where the empire got the star destroyers and ties from

Ep 1 focus on palps rise to power. He sets up the blockade. The Jedi are sent in and try to take the queen to coruscant have to go to tatooine to fix the ship. They meet anakin and get him to come along and head back to coruscant. Palps takes the opportunity to get a foot hold of the senate and the Jedi decide on anakins fate. The queen goes back to naboo to take back the planet and the Jedi face maul. Palps is Elected as chancellor and we see he is the menace behind the whole plot.

Again, you are wrong. We only know TPM is about Palpy's rise to power when that materialises in ROTS. Just like ANH is in the grand scale of the things about the rise of Luke Skywalker. Yet the STORY is about destroying the Death Star.

TPM does show in hindsight the start of Palpy's rise to power (we're not supposed to know it was Palpy who set up the blockade, we can storywise only conclude this after ROTS), but the STORY, that what we actually see in this movie, is about solving a dispute about taxation of trade routes.

That's assuming you havent seen the OT. If you never saw the OT then ep1 is about the sith using the trade route taxation to make a move to take over the galaxy and at the end it is hinted that palps is the sith lord.

Originally posted by queeq
having Anakin spy on Palpy while we found out later that they can just access the security camera's in Palpy's office... why send Anakin???? - oh yes, he has to fall to the dark side so that's why the Jedi send him...

Now i know what you are refering to here. They didn't access a camera in Palps office. it was a security holocron from the Jedi temple.
That's where the image came from.

Was he bowing for Palpy again in the temple???

Originally posted by darthmaul1
That's assuming you havent seen the OT. If you never saw the OT then ep1 is about the sith using the trade route taxation to make a move to take over the galaxy and at the end it is hinted that palps is the sith lord.

Yes, that's sort of the story behind it. But if we look at the protagonists and what their actions are, then it's all focussed on resolving the dispute on the taxation of trade routes. Palpy is not the protagonist here... and that's why it's so damn muddled.

The story is about Jedi, Padme, R2 etc doing a lot of stuff to resolve this boring blockade situation. But if what Lucas really wants to tell is Palpy is active in moving towards a rise to power, then he should be the protagonist of the story, his Sidious identity should not be hidden from the audience (since that would be the very point) and the Jedi should be the antagonists.

You see, this is what I mean... Lucas is trying to do a lot and doesn't do any of these storylines very well.

Originally posted by queeq
Was he bowing for Palpy again in the temple???


That is correct, even the dialouge is different, than when he was in Palps office.

Originally posted by queeq

Yes, that's sort of the story behind it. But if we look at the protagonists and what their actions are, then it's all focussed on resolving the dispute on the taxation of trade routes. Palpy is not the protagonist here... and that's why it's so damn muddled.

The story is about Jedi, Padme, R2 etc doing a lot of stuff to resolve this boring blockade situation. But if what Lucas really wants to tell is Palpy is active in moving towards a rise to power, then he should be the protagonist of the story, his Sidious identity should not be hidden from the audience (since that would be the very point) and the Jedi should be the antagonists.

You see, this is what I mean... Lucas is trying to do a lot and doesn't do any of these storylines very well.

Sidious is the protagonist, but Lucas wanted to keep it a secret for people who have never seen the shows and will watch them ep1-ep6. then it's a surprise for them unless they can figure out from the 2nd last scene in ep1 that Palps is the Master of Maul.
For me this all works fine

Originally posted by darthmaul1
That is correct, even the dialouge is different, than when he was in Palps office.

Ah okay... my bad.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Sidious is the protagonist, but Lucas wanted to keep it a secret for people who have never seen the shows and will watch them ep1-ep6. then it's a surprise for them unless they can figure out from the 2nd last scene in ep1 that Palps is the Master of Maul.
For me this all works fine

Now I know you're wrong. Palpy is NOT the protagonist. Anakin is. (And I think prolly QGJ in TPM). You don't keep a protagonist hidden from your audience for 2,5 movies. Who are you to sympathise with? Who can you feel along with? A protagonist also has character devlopment, Palpy has none of that. (Neither has Anakin for that matter)

Palpy is the ANTAGONIST. No wonder you think the PT is great. You don't know what you're talking about.

The PT would be even more flawed if Palpy is the protagonist. We never see him do anything... all he does is talk.

Originally posted by queeq
Ah okay... my bad.



Now I know you're wrong. Palpy is NOT the protagonist. Anakin is. (And I think prolly QGJ in TPM). You don't keep a protagonist hidden from your audience for 2,5 movies. Who are you to sympathise with? Who can you feel along with? A protagonist also has character devlopment, Palpy has none of that. (Neither has Anakin for that matter)

Palpy is the ANTAGONIST. No wonder you think the PT is great. You don't know what you're talking about.

The PT would be even more flawed if Palpy is the protagonist. We never see him do anything... all he does is talk.

That depends on your point of view on who is good and who is bad
LOL

My bad i meant antagonist. Palps (sidious) and Maul are the antagonists and Anakin is the protagonist along with quigon, obiwan and Padme.
I guess Palps could be a small protagonist from the unknown audiances view, and sidious would be the antagonist.

But they are the same... *sigh*

Well, in TPM Anakin is not really the protagonist. He's a just an accidental meeting. QGJ is and his quest is to resolve the dispute, then tobring the queen to Coruscant and then escort her back to Naboo (but not fight a war for her and then do just that) and then then... to fight Maul I guess... See, it's a muddled story.

They are the same yest, but from the point of view of a person who never saw the OT then palps and sidious are not the same. until the end of TPM if they can piece it together or by 3/4 way through ROTS.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view"

Didn't you just say Anakin was the protagonist? He's not the main one yes but we still cheer for him and are routing for him.

The notion that "Empire Strikes Back" is the holy grail of Star Wars didn't start being tossed around till about 10 years ago.

It was met with mixed reactions from critics when it first opened in 1980, but in time, it became an extremely appreciated chapter in the Star Wars saga.

Why do I say this? Because if Star Wars as we knew it ended after Empire, then that film would at best, be a medicore follow up to the original. People wouldn't have liked the darkness, the slow pacing, the somber feeling at the end of the movie. It's depressing and people would have found it to be far from what the original was.

The reason this movie works so well however, is because of Return of the Jedi. In Jedi, the characters work to overcome their obstacles where as in the "middle" chapter in Empire, the characters were all in their darkest hours. With almost any story you hear anyone tell, the middle is the most important and interesting part of the story, because the end is what wraps everything together... This is why I think the PT fails to many people, because AOTC in my opinion, as a stand alone film, is great...but as a bridge between Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith....it could be better.

When we know that Jedi ends in a "happily ever after" feeling, then Empire becomes the most fascinating chapter because the characters were at their lowest point in the OT. If however, the OT had simply ended after Empire, again, we can all admit that it wouldn't have been the film people love today.

It serves it's purpose as an excellent filler, I'll admit. But again, as a stand alone movie, I think it's a tad overrated. I adore the last 45 minutes of the film...I absolutely do, but the first chunk of it to me is on par with everything else. I don't dislike it, I just don't hold it on a pedistal either.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
The notion that "Empire Strikes Back" is the holy grail of Star Wars didn't start being tossed around till about 10 years ago.



Actually it became the "holy grail" for me about 30 minutes after I walked out of Return of the Jedi.

And please don't forget that the 'I am your father" line from ESB shocked the world. It certainly was not without impact.

But yes, it is the third act. And that's how a third act should be, it has an open ending which doesn't strike as very hopeful. Exactly what a second act should do, and of course a second act should be cashed in by the third.

So that is why ESB is appreciated so much. Not only does it have the best acting of prolly the entire saga, it also doesn't seem to go for grand action packed massive scenes. It's quite intimate, it has spectacle and a great snow battle (but not as massive as the Space battle in TPM, ROTJ or even ANH as it was intended, it wasn't the huge ground battle from AOTC) and has many great character scenes, unexpected twists and turns (the space slug, the cave, Vader as Luke's father) and some of the greatest lines ever written and often reproduced in the series. So no wonder it has reached the status of best film in the saga: it is.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
They are the same yest, but from the point of view of a person who never saw the OT then palps and sidious are not the same. until the end of TPM if they can piece it together or by 3/4 way through ROTS.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view"

Didn't you just say Anakin was the protagonist? He's not the main one yes but we still cheer for him and are routing for him.

If Palps and Sidious are not to be considered as one, as you righfully say, Palpy doesn't do much. He doesn't do anything at all and makes you wonder why he should succeed Valorum... Palps is only interesting BECAUSE he is Sidious. So as a separate character Senator Palpatine is quite boring.

Anakin is the protagonist of the PT, but he certainly is NOT in TPM: another demonstration of how muddled the PT is. It's much ado about things that shouldn't be much ado about.

Originally posted by queeq
And please don't forget that the 'I am your father" line from ESB shocked the world. It certainly was not without impact.

But yes, it is the third act. And that's how a third act should be, it has an open ending which doesn't strike as very hopeful. Exactly what a second act should do, and of course a second act should be cashed in by the third.

So that is why ESB is appreciated so much. Not only does it have the best acting of prolly the entire saga, it also doesn't seem to go for grand action packed massive scenes. It's quite intimate, it has spectacle and a great snow battle (but not as massive as the Space battle in TPM, ROTJ or even ANH as it was intended, it wasn't the huge ground battle from AOTC) and has many great character scenes, unexpected twists and turns (the space slug, the cave, Vader as Luke's father) and some of the greatest lines ever written and often reproduced in the series. So no wonder it has reached the status of best film in the saga: it is.


Agreed, ESB is the best, it was the first movie i lined up for around the block outside with my dad and his dad. ah memories, gone are the days of lining up and the guy comes out to tell you the show is sold out. LOL

But what I'm more importantly asking is this simple question. To those that saw the OT in the theaters when they first came out....after seeing Empire for the first time, did you immediately think it was leaps and bounds better than ANH....or as time passed...did the movie grow on you as the most interesting and haunting chapter of the SW saga?

I'm going to guess that it's a movie that became appreciated within time, and not when it was first released. Because any research into ESB, you will find that the film was met with very mixed reactions when it first opened....and I can understand why, because the movie doesn't look nearly as brilliant as it is until you've seen Jedi.

Yeah, the "I am your father" line shocked the world...but honestly, did ESB really seem that much better than ANH when you first walked out of the theaters?

When people first saw TPM and noticed how kid friendly it was, it sparked this whole "Oh, ROTJ was kid friendly too...and now that I think of it, so wasn't ANH. The only one that seems the most adult like was ESB. ESB is by far the best." We all know darn well that Empire was a film that aged very, very well, and was never put on a pedistal until years down the road.

To be honest, my Star Wars fanship was ignited full flame because of ESB. ANH being rereleased certainly helped, but ESB enlarged the SW universe: more of the great stuff. And I was 11 then... so yeah, I was a kid and Empire made SW a saga, not just the one movie. Plus it promised a third movie, since it wasn't finished. I was wondering if Vader was really Luke's father for three years. I just couldn't believe it.

TPM was kid friendly. I think the entire SW was kid friendly, except ROTS perhaps. But what I do think the OT did not do, unlike TPM, is exclude adults.

Originally posted by queeq
To be honest, my Star Wars fanship was ignited full flame because of ESB. ANH being rereleased certainly helped, but ESB enlarged the SW universe: more of the great stuff. And I was 11 then... so yeah, I was a kid and Empire made SW a saga, not just the one movie. Plus it promised a third movie, since it wasn't finished. I was wondering if Vader was really Luke's father for three years. I just couldn't believe it.

TPM was kid friendly. I think the entire SW was kid friendly, except ROTS perhaps. But what I do think the OT did not do, unlike TPM, is exclude adults.

Esb did it for me as well i was 7 when that came out and I loved it. It had such an impact on me. Anh I saw on video maybe in 1978 or 79?

I dont think tpm excluded adults. There was stuff for everyone and I think Lucas knew that he had to broaden the viewing age to get more people and hence we have jar jar. But his role was considerably down graded in 2 and 3 I think for one cause of all the flack he got plus because c3po and r2 were more prominent in it.

ANH was also a great success among kids without a clown like Jar Jar and without the poop jokes, and without as smart a$$ kid. So why TPM had to focus so heavily on little kids, I still don't understand. I think that kind of said to the adult SW fans: hey, I'm trying to tap into a whole new generation of under-tens. As if poop jokes and a lame Jar Jar (which he liked a lot BTW) are the only way to also attract kids... it certainly wasn't the SW way until then.

Originally posted by queeq
ANH was also a great success among kids without a clown like Jar Jar and without the poop jokes, and without as smart a$$ kid. So why TPM had to focus so heavily on little kids, I still don't understand. I think that kind of said to the adult SW fans: hey, I'm trying to tap into a whole new generation of under-tens. As if poop jokes and a lame Jar Jar (which he liked a lot BTW) are the only way to also attract kids... it certainly wasn't the SW way until then.

Agreed but you have to remember which I think you can cause you were 8 when anh came out i think?
That us as kids in 77 were alot tougher. I saw alien when I was 7 and jaws when I was 5. You wouldn't even think of showing those to a kid now till they were 14 or so?

I'm starting to feel like I don't have much of a life debating which fictional set of films are better than another fictional set of films. lol I've pretty much said all my thoughts on it, but I'll end with one last note.

I didn't hate Jar Jar so much, and I don't think GL ever created him with the intention of pissing off his fans. He was there to please the younger audience of course, but to this day whenever I watch TPM I don't mind Jar Jar, or young Anakin. Never found them annoying or anything. Jake Lloyd acted the way he acted in Jingle All The Way and no one ever found a reason to dislike that movie. In fact, even though it's plot is shallow, people were able to enjoy it for what it is, a fun Christmas film and no one ever picks on the poor kid for his acting. Then Jake performs even better in TPM and now it's a problem because the OT never had kids, so he's an annoying little boy. What did kiddie Anakin do again that was so annoying? Say things like "I'm a person and my name is Anakin." The pod race where he never speaks. Asking his mom if he'll ever see her again? Oh...mind him for having feelings. lol Because he flew a ship and destroyed the battle station and said things like "let's try spinning, that's a good trick." Asked Qui-Gon what midi-chilorians are or Padme if she was an Angel? I don't get it. I still think people are going way out of their way to find problems with it. I think using kids as a reason not to like something is another extremely easy way out.

These scenes should have been the most cherrished by PT haters considering most of Tatooine was shot using "real sets." The pod-race, even though CGI, was an incredible accomplishment by ILM and I think that's arguably some of the best 10 minutes of the entire 6 films. I don't see how having a kid plays into any reason for ruining the pod-race, or any other scene that he was in.

It wasn't so much the kid itself I guess. Certainly, the yippeee's and ooopses didn't help the character. I think the worst bit was that Anakin did everything by accident, there never seemed much talent there. It happened by chance, Lucas will prolly explain that as 'the will of the Force'. But I do think that kinda does away with the way that was portrayed in the OT. We know that Luke was a good pilot, not because he accidentally pushed the right buttons, but because he was good.

ROTS is a sad film

Originally posted by coolmovies
ROTS is a sad film

Do you mean sad as in bad or upsetting

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Poorly-written, CGI-dependent crap focusing more on "whoo that looks neat" than an actual story.

that says it all right there.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I loved darth maul and revenge of the sith, personally.

Darth Maul was a lame ass villian.He looks like the rock group Kiss. Put a guitar in his hand and he would be perfect for that group. He totally ruined the credibility of the first sequal.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Do you mean sad as in bad or upsetting

Upsetting becouse all the jedi's are being killed including younglings

Originally posted by Mr Parker
that says it all right there.

Originally posted by Mr Parker
Darth Maul was a lame ass villian.He looks like the rock group Kiss. Put a guitar in his hand and he would be perfect for that group. He totally ruined the credibility of the first sequal.

WTF?? He was the best coolest villain in the PT. Although I will admit it would of been better if he had been in all 3 movies.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
WTF?? He was the best coolest villain in the PT. Although I will admit it would of been better if he had been in all 3 movies.

Being the "coolest" villain in the PT is like winning first place in the Special Olympics.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
WTF?? He was the best coolest villain in the PT. Although I will admit it would of been better if he had been in all 3 movies.

coolest =/= best.

Originally posted by LanceWindu
Being the "coolest" villain in the PT is like winning first place in the Special Olympics.

i laffed. seriously, that was funny.

now i feel terrible.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
But what I'm more importantly asking is this simple question. To those that saw the OT in the theaters when they first came out....after seeing Empire for the first time, did you immediately think it was leaps and bounds better than ANH....?



Yeah, the "I am your father" line shocked the world...but honestly, did ESB really seem that much better than ANH when you first walked out of the theaters?



YES to both questions.

And regarding the later comments about JarJar. I know alot of people hated the Ewoks, but I could handle them. Jar Jar I actually DESPISED. He was pointless, stupid and annoying x 10000000000.

Finally re: Maul, aside from Vader, Maul was the coolest villain in the SW films imho.

Cool, I believe ya, even though I could have sworn in the past that you said ANH was your favorite.

I'm glad to know that Maul was a cooler villian than Boba Fett, Tarkin, Storm Troopers, Jabba, and above all, The Emperor. I like Maul better than everyone of those guys there, except for the Emperor. Palpatine had far more character development than Maul, so did Dooku, but Maul was cooler. The PT was cool, like Maul, but lacked that rich development that made the OT so special, so I'll have to go with the Emperor over Maul in terms of story and character development.

Score one for the prequels though with Maul. lol However, my one major dislike about ROTS...I despise Greivous the same way you despise Jar Jar. Talk about pointless characters, Grievous tops the list in my opinion. Be very amazed when I say, I actually like Jar Jar better than I like Grievous.

Nah ANH started my love for SW but ESB has always been my fav.

Yeah not a fan of Grievous OR Dooku myself. And naturally Palps had more character development etc. He had 6 movies to accomplish that. I always thought Boba Fett was overrated x 100. Jabba........no biggie there as far as villainy in my opinion.

Boba was iconic in looks and short presence. No more than that. And he made a bigger impression by his vry brief appearance than Dooku and Grievous. That does say something.

But true: he was hardly a character. Just a one dimensional thug, who only got a few shots scenes which added to his mystery. It made people wonder who the heck this cool guy with the Wookie scalps was. Grievous also raises questions but of another kind: what the heck is he all about?????

Maul was allright, but he was more design than character. Plus the few lines that he has also raise question: "At last we'll reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we'll have revenge..." What does that mean? From the movies we still have no idea what the "Revenge of the Sith" was all about. You need EU to understand that and even understand Maul to be anything other that a one dimensional thug. And that's where the PT and Maul fall short IMHO.

Originally posted by queeq
Boba was iconic in looks and short presence. No more than that. And he made a bigger impression by his vry brief appearance than Dooku and Grievous. That does say something.

But true: he was hardly a character. Just a one dimensional thug, who only got a few shots scenes which added to his mystery. It made people wonder who the heck this cool guy with the Wookie scalps was. Grievous also raises questions but of another kind: what the heck is he all about?????

Maul was allright, but he was more design than character. Plus the few lines that he has also raise question: "At last we'll reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we'll have revenge..." What does that mean? From the movies we still have no idea what the "Revenge of the Sith" was all about. You need EU to understand that and even understand Maul to be anything other that a one dimensional thug. And that's where the PT and Maul fall short IMHO.

About Maul, what i got from the movies was simply the fact the Jedi had wiped out the sith a thousand years ago, and now Sidious and Maul have risen to take revenge for the sith being wiped out.

As for Boba, i personaly think it would be cooler if the braids on his outfit were jedi braids. (They never say what they are in the movies at all so it could be possible) and if he had been present to help anakin assault the jedi temple would of been cool. and he could of disinigrated the jedi. This would of made vaders "No disintagrations" line mean more.

That was a line that never needed to mean more. There's always been a strange obsession with that line.

Boba was a character more popular than had been foreseen. GL has commented that if he had appreciated that, he would have given him a better death. Still, there you go.

Up until a few nights ago, I hadn't watched TPM all the way through in probably 6 years, and AOTC, a good 3 at least. I figured, now that I've aged some more and the prequels are a bit older, perhaps I'll give Episode 1 and 2 another watch and see if my opinions of them change. Maybe now that the craze and hype is all over with I'll be able to better acknowledge all the problems with them, rather than still being high off the Star Wars adrenaline that I found from 2002-2006.

Honestly, I can understand some of the frustrations with the films, but my thoughts still stand. They don't need to be compared to the originals because these films were not trying to be them. They were simply a backstory documentation of the events leading up the originals.

Whether or not Prequels were necessary is open to individual interpretation, but the fact is we have them, and while they could have been better, they're not as bad as what they're made out to be. I actually enjoyed TPM more the other night, then I did when I was kid and I think some of the best scenes in the prequels come straight out of that film. The Anakin/Padme love story is not "unwatchable" as many make it out to be. Different than Han and Leia for sure, but whatever.....the waterfall scene, dinner scene, fireplace scene, I really think people are just looking for reasons to complain.

Would we have rather gone that absolute most horrid route, and have Anakin whip out a guitar and sings to his love like some high school jocks do? Should he have read Padme a poem? Better yet, he could have impressed her with a brand new swift looking land speeder like high schoolers do with their trucks. Yes, there have been better executed romance stories in cinema...for sure, but I do find these scenes not hard to watch in the least. I'm completely fine with them. All in All...TPM is a film with better production values...though I find AOTC to be more interesting to watch. It has a tone unlike any other Star Wars film. Most people find that to be a bad thing. I on the other hand, love it.

While ROTS is logistically the best of the three, having watched the first 2 again makes Episode III a bit more disappointing. I say this because as the last chapter, the big finale, the piece of the story we've all be waiting to see, while it was no doubt good, it had to be great, and I really feel like Grievous and the crap on Utapau drag the movie down from it's full potential. Utapau was wasted screen time when there should have been a growing conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Nevertheless, I still find ROTS to be an excellent film, probably better than the first 2, and I do enjoy watching it more than any of the original films, but Lucas once said that ROTS was "Titanic in space." I always think to myself, if infact ROTS was Titanic in space, this would have been the most epic sci-fi movie of all time. Unfortunately, it is just "really good" and not great.

To all you OT supporters out there, there's no doubt the OT is the superb trilogy. Having said that, nitpicking the prequels enough to the point of it being absurd that the general movie-goer can no longer enjoy a sci-fi movie by suspending their belief a tad, is a bit upsetting. The key thing is to let go and stop second-guesing every little tiny thing to this absolutely ridiculous level. People can't possibly have any idea how annyoing it is to read some of the criticisms of the PT. Rather than viewing these films as a whole and pointing out the ups and downs of the big picture, we decide every little thing must be questioned, analyzed, and disected to the point that of course it won't make sense anymore, and of course you won't be able to enjoy any of these films.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
The Anakin/Padme love story is not "unwatchable" as many make it out to be. Different than Han and Leia for sure, but whatever.....the waterfall scene, dinner scene, fireplace scene, I really think people are just looking for reasons to complain.

"Looking for reasons to complain"? I'm sorry, but those scenes were absolutely horrid. Hayden and Natalie have absolutely zero chemistry on screen. The it's the writing AND the acting of the love story that is rubbish.