There are days it can be difficult to hold to freedom of speech.

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Zeal Ex Nihilo
After watching A Serbian Film, I can say that today is one of those days.

inimalist
weird

not my cup of tea, but I don't see what is wrong with it

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Aside from the guy raping a newborn baby, I dunno lol.

inimalist
thats disgusting and all, not something I want to see, but this hardly comes close to pushing the limits of freedom of speech.

what possible harm is that doing?

Zeal Ex Nihilo
It's grotesque and vile, and there is a good part in me that inherently desires to suppress it because of this.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Aside from the guy raping a newborn baby, I dunno lol.
Um, I never saw it, but the wiki summary says that he was asked to do the newborn series, but, it never actually had him doing so in the film. Correct me if that's wrong.

inimalist
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
It's grotesque and vile, and there is a good part in me that inherently desires to suppress it because of this.

I can appreciate the reaction, but I really don't think "grossness" or "vileness" are good reasons to introduce restrictions on speech

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by inimalist
I can appreciate the reaction, but I really don't think "grossness" or "vileness" are good reasons to introduce restrictions on speech
Neither do I, which is why I said it is difficult to hold to freedom of speech, not that I support censoring the film.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, I never saw it, but the wiki summary says that he was asked to do the newborn series, but, it never actually had him doing so in the film. Correct me if that's wrong.
They show another guy raping the baby.

inimalist
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Neither do I, which is why I said it is difficult to hold to freedom of speech, not that I support censoring the film.

so you are saying if you did support censorship, this would be where you started?

but no, I hear you, it is hard to defend things that offend your own sensibilities, especially when taken to such extremes. I had a really similar reaction to the stuff PETA published comparing the food industry to the holocaust, among other things.

skekUng
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
After watching A Serbian Film, I can say that today is one of those days.

What does your screenname mean, Zeal?

skekUng
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
difficult to hold to freedom of speech.

The beauty of freedom of speech is your implied freedom not to listen. You don't have to agree with the speech. The freedom exists whether you agree with it or not. Change the channel.

ADarksideJedi
Actly every day not just some days.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
After watching A Serbian Film, I can say that today is one of those days.

I have less problems with things like this, it's harder to support freedom of speech in the face of stupidity, ignorance or maliciousness.

dadudemon
Film is pretty sick.

It doesn't even come close to destroying my support for freedom of speech, however.

I'm probably one of the most liberal interpreters of freedom of speech.

I DO draw the line at harming (emotionally or physically) children or the "helpless" for the purposes of the freedom of speech, however. I mean this directly, not indirectly. For instance, I think it's bullshit to blame a game publisher/maker for a violent video game that gives a child an idea to stick an M16 barrel into a cats butthole and fire. However, I do believe it's wrong to electrocute a child for a film to show how the government is oppressing us, or something.

Lord Lucien
Do we really need freedom of speech? I mean, really need it? It's not like we've ever made use of it.

Symmetric Chaos
Wait, did they actually have someone rape a baby?

753
I think it's safe to assume they didn't actually do the things portrayed in the film as the controversy wouldnt surround free speech, but the actual crimes and they'd all be injail instead of defending their "art" to the press

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Wait, did they actually have someone rape a baby?

No. It looks intentionally fake in the movie and it's actually a character watching a movie of that happening, not doing it.
This is such a retarded knee jerk response and the movie has been out for ages.

Baby scene NOT the most disturbing scene by far in the movie. Not even close.

753
Just read the synopsis. sounded pretty lame actually

lil bitchiness
It's actually very well made.

jaden101
I thought it was a good film once you see past the controversy that surrounded it.

Robtard
I've been thinking of seeing it, but it looks/reads like the only merit it has is 'how disgusting and vile can we make a film', which is pretty lame if that's what it's all about.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
This is such a retarded knee jerk response and the movie has been out for ages.

Baby scene NOT the most disturbing scene by far in the movie. Not even close.
Remember, folks, this is coming from a feminist.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Remember, folks, this is coming from a feminist.
I don't really see how that changes her point.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Feminism often does not connect with those of us who are a part of the reality-based community.

Lacan Grahf
^ LOL.

I think she's going to demonstrate her feminism by raping you quite thoroughly over a message board.

Tell me what it feels like. no expression

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Feels good, man. But if she decides to "rape" me over that comment, it will merely demonstrate evidence in favor of my statement.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Feminism often does not connect with those of us who are a part of the reality-based community.
So your point is that you can dismiss her views (even when unrelated) because she's a feminist? This is a type of fallacy.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
It is a fallacy, but, in most cases, it also happens to be correct.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Feminism often does not connect with those of us who are a part of the reality-based community.

For an incredibly narrow definition of feminist generally preferred by the mouth breathing Rush Limbaugh crowd.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
It is a fallacy, but, in most cases, it also happens to be correct.
Unless you have some kind of study that shows a causative relationship here, the fact that its a fallacy pretty much means it has no bearing at all.

Zeal Ex Nihilo
Looks like I hit a nerve. I've spoken with enough feminists, read enough feminist "literature," and seen enough of lil bitchiness's posts that my words ring true.

Lacan Grahf
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Looks like I hit a nerve.

no expression

Where?

King Kandy
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Looks like I hit a nerve. I've spoken with enough feminists, read enough feminist "literature," and seen enough of lil bitchiness's posts that my words ring true.
That seems like a very flawed basis to conduct judgment on. Pretty much, your only source is "trust me, I know what i'm doing". That's not a basis to debate based on if you're hoping to have an intelligent discussion.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Looks like I hit a nerve. I've spoken with enough feminists, read enough feminist "literature," and seen enough of lil bitchiness's posts that my words ring true.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by King Kandy
That seems like a very flawed basis to conduct judgment on. Pretty much, your only source is "trust me, I know what i'm doing". That's not a basis to debate based on if you're hoping to have an intelligent discussion.

Whether you like Zeal or not; the man has a point. A feminist's opinions (mainly the more extreme ones) often compromises, or at least heavily slants, her better judgement.

Are you just yelling "fallacy" to annoy him, or do you honestly think he's way off target? That he has no valid point whatsoever?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Whether you like Zeal or not; the man has a point. A feminist's opinions (mainly the more extreme ones) often compromises, or at least heavily slants, her better judgement.

Now you just have to establish that all feminists are wacked out extremists.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Now you just have to establish that all feminists are wacked out extremists.


Ay guey...I thought it was implied that I meant stereotypical extreme ones.

inimalist
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Looks like I hit a nerve. I've spoken with enough feminists, read enough feminist "literature," and seen enough of lil bitchiness's posts that my words ring true.

though you seem to have skipped right through the likes of Wendy McElroy or Emma Goldstein

so, ya, this:

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
For an incredibly narrow definition of feminist generally preferred by the mouth breathing Rush Limbaugh crowd.

skekUng
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
It is a fallacy, but, in most cases, it also happens to be correct.

So, what ever -ism or -ist to which you subscribe, automatically cancels out any other, huh?

King Kandy
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Ay guey...I thought it was implied that I meant stereotypical extreme ones.
Um, then for him to have a point, he'd have to prove LB was a "stereotypical extreme feminist". Until then, he literally has no substance at all.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Ay guey...I thought it was implied that I meant stereotypical extreme ones.

It's not. When you attack a group as a whole, why would anyone assume you're only attacking one very small part of that group?

I hate apples!
Really? Granny Smith's are awesome.
I thought it was implied that I only meant Golden Delicious!

skekUng
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
For an incredibly narrow definition of feminist generally preferred by the mouth breathing Rush Limbaugh crowd.

But, he isn't one of those people. What bothers me most about people who are bright enough not to agree with the likes of Mr. Limbaugh or Beck or Hannity, are so glad to have them on their side. It allows them to cast anyone who disagrees with them as equally nuts as the people in their own tent. It's a way of saying they recognize insanity in their own party, while casting anyone who isn't as insane, retarded, mentally challenged, etc.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's not. When you attack a group as a whole, why would anyone assume you're only attacking one very small part of that group?

I hate apples!
Really? Granny Smith's are awesome.
I thought it was implied that I only meant Golden Delicious!

I did say mainly the more extreme ones and often, as opposed to "always", or "iron clad", or "100%", or "surefire".

inimalist
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I did say mainly the more extreme ones and often, as opposed to "always", or "iron clad", or "100%", or "surefire".

but that isn't even true

feminists aren't "often" extreme, or even "likely to be". The ones that make news coverage, sure, almost certainly, because they conform to preconcieved notions of what a feminist is, and in turn, this becomes the "steryotypical" feminist you see in popular media, but feminism as a political movement and sociological theory is much broader.

Thanusisback
Originally posted by inimalist
but that isn't even true

feminists aren't "often" extreme, or even "likely to be". The ones that make news coverage, sure, almost certainly, because they conform to preconcieved notions of what a feminist is, and in turn, this becomes the "steryotypical" feminist you see in popular media, but feminism as a political movement and sociological theory is much broader.

A feminist is simply a woman who should be slapped more often. wink

Thanusisback
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
After watchin I can say that today is one of those days.

So it's O.K. for you to choose what you want to watch, but not for others to choose what to make?

Facking Nazi

inimalist
Originally posted by Thanusisback
A feminist is simply a woman who should be slapped more often. wink

if a woman even insinuated a joke like that, she would be labeled a "femi-nazi"

Thanusisback
Originally posted by inimalist
if a woman even insinuated a joke like that, she would be labeled a "femi-nazi"

I though would ask said woman what her husband was doing letting her out of the Kitchen... Viva Islam!!!

inimalist
insecurity, thy name is man

BackFire
Film's actually quite solid for what it is. Well made, well acted. There is a deeper meaning behind it all that's easy to miss because of some of the extreme and disgusting subject matter, but there is a point to it all. It was a lot better than I was expecting.

That said the movie has been over hyped as far as being the most disturbing movie of all time. Not even close to that, I think. The baby scene was implied, didn't show anything.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's not. When you attack a group as a whole, why would anyone assume you're only attacking one very small part of that group?

I hate apples!
Really? Granny Smith's are awesome.
I thought it was implied that I only meant Golden Delicious!

Yeah, that pretty much sums up what happened. thumb up

Your post also made me want to eat apples.

Originally posted by BackFire
Film's actually quite solid for what it is. Well made, well acted. There is a deeper meaning behind it all that's easy to miss because of some of the extreme and disgusting subject matter, but there is a point to it all. It was a lot better than I was expecting.

That said the movie has been over hyped as far as being the most disturbing movie of all time. Not even close to that, I think. The baby scene was implied, didn't show anything.

Really?

Sounds like a gross movie. But what would be worse? Those would fit perfectly in the thread.

BackFire
The August Underground films are much more disgusting and hideous. They also fit the bill of a movie whose sole intent is to be gross more than this one does. One of those has a scene similar to the scene Zeal is talking about earlier in the thread, but it actually shows it.

I also think Salo, Irreversible and Men Behind the Sun are rougher than Serbian Film.

inimalist
so, what, there is like a genre of "gross out" films like these?

bleh...

BackFire
Films that intend to push the envelope as far as it can be pushed.

Most are garbage, but some are legitimately decent movies.

inimalist
I can respect the desire to push the limit like that

just so totally not what I'm interested in seeing

dadudemon
Originally posted by BackFire
The August Underground films are much more disgusting and hideous. They also fit the bill of a movie whose sole intent is to be gross more than this one does. One of those has a scene similar to the scene Zeal is talking about earlier in the thread, but it actually shows it.

I also think Salo, Irreversible and Men Behind the Sun are rougher than Serbian Film.
Cool.

Thanks.


Based on your previous recommendations, I have already seen Irreversible.

I'll take a look at Salo and Men Behind the Sun. thumb up

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by inimalist
if a woman even insinuated a joke like that, she would be labeled a "femi-nazi" "Double standard" isn't a euphemism for "wrong". 313

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Remember, folks, this is coming from a feminist.

Why do you use words you don't know the meaning of? Such as ''feminist''?

Bardock42
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/how_it_works.png


Moving on.



I agree with lil b and Backfire on this in principle, I haven't watched the movie yet, but I do think that movies like that can have artistic or philosophical merit. I suppose I don't find it hard to favour Freedom of Speech, when the message is right, not harmful or trivial, like I said before I have more problems with speech that discriminates people or brainwashes people towards ignorance.

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