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Random encounter.

No weapons. H2H.

Efinglektra

Been done.

Elektra.

Been done, Cassy can do suprisingly well here, but Elektra is a different beast from what Cassy is used to handling. It's not a stomp , but Elektra wins.

Cassandra.

Cass stomps like no ones business
Elektra gets beaten by superhuman opponents all the time
Cass beats Superhuman opponents all the time

the skill gap is too big

Originally posted by SasuOna
Cass stomps like no ones business
Elektra gets beaten by superhuman opponents all the time
Cass beats Superhuman opponents all the time

the skill gap is too big

stop your nonsense fanboy, show me 1, just 1 single non PIS feat of cassy that Elektra cannot replicate, im not saying cassy cant win, but therer is no "stomp" in this thread.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Cass stomps like no ones business
Elektra gets beaten by superhuman opponents all the time
Cass beats Superhuman opponents all the time

the skill gap is too big lolwut? Elektra is metahuman and defeats other metas regularly. Her feats are better and her powerset is superior. Name one being That Cassandra took out that Elektra couldn't possibly defeat as you claim the gap is so wide. She couldn't even take Slade properly.

Originally posted by 753
lolwut? Elektra is metahuman and defeats other metas regularly. Her feats are better and her powerset is superior. Name one being That Cassandra took out that Elektra couldn't possibly defeat as you claim the gap is so wide. She couldn't even take Slade properly.

A lark I see
Elektra isn't superhuman
and neither is Cass however her feats make everything Elektra has done pail in comparison.
If you want to use the Slade argument I can use the Bullseye argument ad nauseum the same way. Thats not proving anything.

However unless Elektra can do things like this shes not beating Cass


kicks through a brick wall
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p131/GaryouTensei/Batgirl%20Respect%20Thread/Batgirl002-15.jpg
kicks through 3 inch quartz
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-14.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-15.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-16.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-17.jpg

Durability feats
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ead/page17.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...d/page19-1.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...d/page20-1.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ead/page22.jpg

Beats the Brotherhood of Evil by herself
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ad/page-18.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ad/page-19.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ad/page-20.jpg

Except you can't, because writers made Elektra into an absolute powerhouse after her resurrection. The Bullseye thing doesn't translate because Elektra just kicked his ass in Dark Reign while drugged, injured, exhausted, and poisoned.

Elektra's gone h2h with Razorfist, Wolverine, the Silver Samurai, and several Super Skrulls. Her strength really shouldn't be in question here.

(I'll point out that your only working scan is the hole in the wall one)

I'd individually post the scans and my own interpretations of them, but I think it would do you some good to just browse through this respect thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=502532&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by Konton
Except you can't, because writers made Elektra into an absolute powerhouse after her resurrection. The Bullseye thing doesn't translate because Elektra just kicked his ass in Dark Reign while drugged, injured, exhausted, and poisoned.

Elektra's gone h2h with Razorfist, Wolverine, the Silver Samurai, and several Super Skrulls. Her strength really shouldn't be in question here.

(I'll point out that your only working scan is the hole in the wall one)

I'd individually post the scans and my own interpretations of them, but I think it would do you some good to just browse through this respect thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=502532&pagenumber=1
Except Marvel hasn't turned her into a powerhouse at all she regularly gets manhandled by people stronger than her. This isn't up for debate unless you want to argue her durability.

Elektra fought Bullseye in her first ongoing after the supposed "upgrades" she received after her ressurection and she got beat down to the point of needing PIS to win that fight.
Elektra wouldn't need to be drugged for Bullseye to beat her that was just dumb for the sake of being dumb.

Elektra hasn't beaten anyone Daredevil hasn't beaten, shes not superhuman and the only thing she would have over Cass is her mind reading but then again even that never helped some of the telapaths Cass has beaten.

In what alternate universe are you seeing her man handled?

She NEVER gets manhandled. The only time I can ever recall anyone absolutely trashing her was when she and Wolverine went up against Gorgon. Yeah, he's basically a speedster - it happens.

She's been up there with the big boys since her ongoing.

She has a conditional win/stalemate record on freaking Wolverine.
She's always edged out Daredevil.
She moved so fast the Punisher's vision couldn't even keep up with her.
She took down gangs of Super Skrulls and then took MULTIPLE hits from Colossus' skrull before finally getting KOd.
She took down Taskmaster, Zaran, and Fatale in three panels.
She rammed a blunt pole through Paladin, who has metahuman durability.
She pooped on Razorfist, also superhuman.
She laughed at Silver Samurai, also superhuman.
She pwnd Kirigi twice.

Cassie has done what exactly? Not been killed by Deathstroke and has a bunch of mother/daughter dynamic convoluted encounters with Shiva. Gotcha.

Cassie has really good speed feats, but Elektra has more going for her. Strength could go either way IMO, because while Elektra's leg strength was so much that she could swim faster than the human eye could see underwater, Cassie leaps towers now or whatever. Speed? Either way again. They both have "after the bullet fired" feats. Elektra's been shown moving and stealthing faster than DD and Wolvie could keep their eyes on though. Skill? Elektra. All the way Elektra. She's done more, actually has a track record, and has done everything Cassie has in surplus. Durability? Elektra. She took a slam from Luke Cage like nothing, the skrull thing, all the metahuman encounters. She's way more likely to continue fighting at optimal levels than Cassie is, too. She's shown some real grit over the years. Then the quasi-mystical complete anatomical control over her own body makes things different.

There's also deflecting bullets with sais as well as her bare fist and punching holes through people on many occasions.
This is not a stomp in anyone's favor but I give Elektra the majority.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Except Marvel hasn't turned her into a powerhouse at all she regularly gets manhandled by people stronger than her. This isn't up for debate unless you want to argue her durability.

Elektra fought Bullseye in her first ongoing after the supposed "upgrades" she received after her ressurection and she got beat down to the point of needing PIS to win that fight.
Elektra wouldn't need to be drugged for Bullseye to beat her that was just dumb for the sake of being dumb.

Elektra hasn't beaten anyone Daredevil hasn't beaten, shes not superhuman and the only thing she would have over Cass is her mind reading but then again even that never helped some of the telapaths Cass has beaten.

YDKWYTA

Cass is super human for what she is as well.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Cass is super human for what she is as well.
Not really, there even scans saying she not superhuman on pannel. However what makes her seem super human is she can do everything at peak level all at once, which is something almost no normal human can do, but her individual stats are still very much human (peak human).

facepalm @Sasuona

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Not really, there even scans saying she not superhuman on pannel. However what makes her seem super human is she can do everything at peak level all at once, which is something almost no normal human can do, but her individual stats are still very much human (peak human).

Super human in that she does things no human can do. Not even Olympic athletes can do. Same for Elektra.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Except Marvel hasn't turned her into a powerhouse at all she regularly gets manhandled by people stronger than her. This isn't up for debate unless you want to argue her durability.

Elektra fought Bullseye in her first ongoing after the supposed "upgrades" she received after her ressurection and she got beat down to the point of needing PIS to win that fight.
Elektra wouldn't need to be drugged for Bullseye to beat her that was just dumb for the sake of being dumb.

Elektra hasn't beaten anyone Daredevil hasn't beaten, shes not superhuman and the only thing she would have over Cass is her mind reading but then again even that never helped some of the telapaths Cass has beaten.

... This guy serious?

like both characters, however Elektra will win the majority

Electra for the win, but not in any way a stomp.

Originally posted by SasuOna
A lark I see
Elektra isn't superhuman
and neither is Cass however her feats make everything Elektra has done pail in comparison.
If you want to use the Slade argument I can use the Bullseye argument ad nauseum the same way. Thats not proving anything.

However unless Elektra can do things like this shes not beating Cass


kicks through a brick wall
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p131/GaryouTensei/Batgirl%20Respect%20Thread/Batgirl002-15.jpg
kicks through 3 inch quartz
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-14.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-15.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-16.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-17.jpg

Durability feats
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ead/page17.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...d/page19-1.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...d/page20-1.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ead/page22.jpg

Beats the Brotherhood of Evil by herself
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ad/page-18.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ad/page-19.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ad/page-20.jpg there's nothing in those scans elektra hasnt matched and elektra is indeed a metahumand as she has actual superpowers like mind possesion, TP, etc. this is like saying iron fist isn't superhuman.

Originally posted by 753
there's nothing in those scans elektra hasnt matched and elektra is indeed a metahumand as she has actual superpowers like mind possesion, TP, etc. this is like saying iron fist isn't superhuman.
Why bring up TP in a H/H fight?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Why bring up TP in a H/H fight? Missed that OP detail. Point still stands. Elektra has superpowers, she's not just pushing the limits of peak human.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Why bring up TP in a H/H fight? h/h doesn't preclude the use of TP

Originally posted by Starscream M
h/h doesn't preclude the use of TP
Yeah it does.

If h/h "doesn't preclude the use of TP" then where is the line drawn?

How is offensive tp any different from energy blasts or magic or other things that are traditionally left out from h/h matches?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah it does.

If h/h "doesn't preclude the use of TP" then where is the line drawn?

How is offensive tp any different from energy blasts or magic or other things that are traditionally left out from h/h matches? no one said anything about offensive tp

but I would assume defensive tp (ie mindreading) would still be allowed

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah it does.

If h/h "doesn't preclude the use of TP" then where is the line drawn?

How is offensive tp any different from energy blasts or magic or other things that are traditionally left out from h/h matches?
no it doesent




certainly no out defensive tp.




Becuase she not attacking with it. She simply using it to read her opponents mind. Based on your logic, we should preclude body reading as well. If your argueing for batgirl, thats not something you want to happen.........

Originally posted by Starscream M
no one said anything about offensive tp

but I would assume defensive tp (ie mindreading) would still be allowed
I know right, it funny because the only time were people try and pretend that her TP should be removed because it h2h, is when she pitted against DC characters, and in particular batgirl. Yet you see no one pretending that body reaching is removed becuase it h2h, nor radar senses ect.


h2h means the fight in body against body, however that does not mean defensive abilities such as mind reading or body reading, or healing factor , or super strength ect. would be removed

Mind reading is in no way "defensive" if anything it's offensive... As it involves you looking into your opponents mind... Defensive protections are one thing which prevent people from invading your mind.. But reaching into someone else is all offensive

mind-reading isn't defensive tp, imo.

a purely h2h match would be that, though: h2h. no tp.

I don't think h2h his synonymous with no powers. Elektra's telepathy is just an ability she uses to augment her melee capabilities, I would consider it fair game unless no powers was specified by the OP.

Either way Elektra should take the majority.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't think h2h his synonymous with no powers. Elektra's telepathy is just an ability she uses to augment her melee capabilities, I would consider it fair game unless no powers was specified by the OP.

Either way Elektra should take the majority.

it usually is.

Originally posted by -Pr-
it usually is.

So if I said Hulk vs Thing h2h... you would think that means what? No healing / super strength / durability?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
So if I said Hulk vs Thing h2h... you would think that means what? No healing / super strength / durability?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

they don't have other avenues of attack bar physical, so it's not the same thing.

the point stands. if elektra has passive, non offensive tp, then it's allowed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
they don't have other avenues of attack bar physical, so it's not the same thing.

the point stands. if elektra has passive, non offensive tp, then it's allowed.

That's pretty convoluted...

Generally speaking she can't mind rape / control anyone, so it is about as "passive" and "non offensive" as tp can get.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That's pretty convoluted...

Generally speaking she can't mind rape / control anyone, so it is about as "passive" and "non offensive" as tp can get.

whether you think so or not, it's how it is.

as long as she isn't using it to read their minds, there should be no problem with it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
whether you think so or not, it's how it is.

as long as she isn't using it to read their minds, there should be no problem with it.

You should amend the rules to make that clear because it is contrary to what is actually in there...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You should amend the rules to make that clear because it is contrary to what is actually in there...

howso?

Originally posted by -Pr-
howso?

Particularity the Full Capacity rule. It isn't made clear anyway that the h2h qualifier is actually means that we are arbitrarily disabling some powers used to solely to augment h2h capabilities, while allowing other on a whim.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Particularity the Full Capacity rule. It isn't made clear anyway that the h2h qualifier is actually means that we are arbitrarily disabling some powers used to solely to augment h2h capabilities, while allowing other on a whim.

the full capacity rule doesn't apply, imo, nor are we being arbitrary. it's a consistent approach.

if her power involves her reading someone else's mind, then it's not allowed, full stop.

we've been doing it that way for years, and we had assumed everyone knew that. we thought it was common knowledge.

Originally posted by -Pr-
the full capacity rule doesn't apply, imo, nor are we being arbitrary. it's a consistent approach.

if her power involves her reading someone else's mind, then it's not allowed, full stop.

we've been doing it that way for years, and we had assumed everyone knew that. we thought it was common knowledge.

And how is reading someones mind outside of h2h? She isn't controlling them, or using tk, just getting extra data via tp. Can I arbitrarily decide that Batgirl's ability read body language and Wolverine's healing factor are against the spirit of h2h too, or do you need to be the one who decides off hand which powers do and do not constitute h2h?

Frankly I don't think it has been like this for years.

Originally posted by -Pr-
mind-reading isn't defensive tp, imo.

a purely h2h match would be that, though: h2h. no tp. Pr, a mod, has made a decision regarding the rules. And I agree. H2H means fighting with skills, no other powers.

Any questions regarding rules can be done via PMs. Back to the topic at hand please.

Originally posted by Badabing
Pr, a mod, has made a decision regarding the rules. And I agree. H2H means fighting with skills, no other powers.

Any questions regarding rules can be done via PMs. Back to the topic at hand please.

Fine, but he has said some powers are allowed in h2h, which is what I am not clear on. It all seems counter intuitive, which power are and are not allowed..

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Fine, but he has said some powers are allowed in h2h, which is what I am not clear on. It all seems counter intuitive, which power are and are not allowed..
It's really not that hard to figure out. If you have a power that in any way effects your opponent in a way that isn't purely physical in nature it's out.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It's really not that hard to figure out. If you have a power that in any way effects your opponent in a way that isn't purely physical in nature it's out.

Elektra' tp doesn't effect her opponent though, she isn't mind controlling them, just gleaming what they will do off the surface of their mind. It is like assuming that Midnighter's battle computer is disabled in hand to hand fights. I would say any power that doesn't exert a measurable force on the opponent is fair game in h2h.

How is Batgirls ability allowed but not elektra TP?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That's pretty convoluted...

Generally speaking she can't mind rape / control anyone, so it is about as "passive" and "non offensive" as tp can get.

Don't make me dig up tp scans, mister.

Guys, discuss the topic of the thread, please. the ruling has already been made.

Originally posted by Konton
Don't make me dig up tp scans, mister.



They are my scans.

But I said "generally" for a reason.

Honestly that BS, warn me if you want but you can't just make snap judgements on characters and simply expect everyone to fallow like drones.

How is elektra TP not allowed but Batgirls ability is?

What is the difference? both powers are learn skills, both do pretty much the same thing. Whats the rational for elektra ability being not allowed.

Then what of DD radar senses? or mister x? Are these now not allowed?

Well sticking to the topic with or without to I still see elektra winning...

Although I can see how powers like taskmaster and mr x can make yhe situation more sticky.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Honestly that BS, warn me if you want but you can't just make snap judgements on characters and simply expect everyone to fallow like drones.

How is elektra TP not allowed but Batgirls ability is?

What is the difference? both powers are learn skills, both do pretty much the same thing. Whats the rational for elektra ability being not allowed.

Then what of DD radar senses? or mister x? Are these now not allowed?

It is arbitrary and incredibly convoluted, but the ruling is in. Just go with it I guess..

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, discuss the topic of the thread, please. the ruling has already been made. I accept that she can't midread. Just to clarify, I'd like a ruling on whether Batgirl's, Fantomex's and Cypher's bodylanguage reading are fair game in a h2h fight. What about Mr X's brand of movment predicting TP? Would that count?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Honestly that BS, warn me if you want but you can't just make snap judgements on characters and simply expect everyone to fallow like drones.

How is elektra TP not allowed but Batgirls ability is?

What is the difference? both powers are learn skills, both do pretty much the same thing. Whats the rational for elektra ability being not allowed.

Then what of DD radar senses? or mister x? Are these now not allowed?

No snap judgments were made. At all.

and please, don't use examples that aren't relevant, like Daredevil.

Originally posted by 753
I accept that she can't midread. Just to clarify, I'd like a ruling on whether Batgirl's, Fantomex's and Cypher's bodylanguage reading are fair game in a h2h fight. What about Mr X's brand of movment predicting TP? Would that count?

if it's actual mind-reading, as in telepathy, then it's not allowed. if it's some sort of innate skill that they've perfected or are simply naturally gifted, then it's ok.

reading someone's mind to get an advantage is offensive tp, whether it's learned or not, and still constitutes a super-power.

^ I agree with you this time Pr.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If it's actual mind-reading, as in telepathy, then it's not allowed. if it's some sort of innate skill that they've perfected or are simply naturally gifted, then it's ok.

reading someone's mind to get an advantage is offensive tp, whether it's learned or not, and still constitutes a super-power.

I'm confused as to the distinction between "innate skill they've perfected" and the implied "advantage that was learned."

I agree that this argument is stupid and that it's fairly easy to distinguish what's fair game when saying h2h (and you're right, that's how it's been done on KMC forever), but I'm not grasping your rhetoric. Elektra's powers are a result of her complete anatomical control over her brain function and, going by her history and what has been said about it, every human is capable of doing this with the correct training. I would argue that training her brain in such a way that grants her abilities completely normal for a human in Marvel is no different than any other martial artist training other, more common, parts of their bodies for combat.

^ good point actually.

Originally posted by Konton
I'm confused as to the distinction between "innate skill they've perfected" and the implied "advantage that was learned."

I agree that this argument is stupid and that it's fairly easy to distinguish what's fair game when saying h2h (and you're right, that's how it's been done on KMC forever), but I'm not grasping your rhetoric. Elektra's powers are a result of her complete anatomical control over her brain function and, going by her history and what has been said about it, every human is capable of doing this with the correct training. I would argue that training her brain in such a way that grants her abilities completely normal for a human in Marvel is no different than any other martial artist training other, more common, parts of their bodies for combat.

it's been stated that any human in marvel could (potentially) learn the techniques she has?

Originally posted by -Pr-
it's been stated that any human in marvel could (potentially) learn the techniques she has?
In Marvel it's been stated (with Moondragon) that any human could potentially become a telepath with the right training. So maybe. *shrug*

Originally posted by Omega Vision
In Marvel it's been stated (with Moondragon) that any human could potentially become a telepath with the right training. So maybe. *shrug*

A telepath like Elektra?

I can see how some one could make the argument that with training anyone could gain telepathic powers... I mean dr strange is merely a human but you teach him the mystic arts... And now he's one of the strongest reproduce around right?

But then technically you are gonna be stretching that rule for magic? What about tech... Etc... I think because cassandras ability are based upon visual cues it's different than what elektra does or mr x... Taskmaster should be fine though...

Guys, Pr and I have already posted and agreed that H2H means no extra powers, 6th senses, etc. I asked that any further discussion be taken to PMs. Do I really have to take things further?

The idea of H2H is to measure who the better, pure fighter is based on fighting skills. With a rare exception like Daredevil, whose extra power/sense makes up for a handicap, consider H2H threads to be a fight of skills. The origin of the power, whether it's learned, genetic, tech, magic, etc. is moot.


Let's be clear.
Pr and I made a ruling. So debate the topic.

Reopening, for now.