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Top 10 of the Old Republic Era: 25000-1000 BBY

Top 10 of the Rise of the Empire Era: 1000-0 BBY

Top 10 of the New Rebellion/Republic/New Jedi Order/Legacy Era: 0-40 ABY

State feats and accolades that back up the larger portion of the 3 lists.

No offence but I think your criteria requires some explanation.

What exactly do you mean by "without the Force?" When Jedi duel with lightsabres, they always have the Force flowing through them, using it strengthen and quicken themselves, to anticipate what will happen next etc.

It would be like asking for a list of best martial artists, without using their eyes and ears.

If by contrast you mean "without the Force" as in, not using it directly against the opponent, that would be a different matter.

Most entries can't be accurately placed in to an order, stuff becomes to foggy and subjective.

Originally posted by Malebolgia_02
Top 10 of the Old Republic Era: 25000-1000 BBY The Dread Lord Kas'im the Magnificent. Bane. Revan (probably). Malak (probably). Raskta Lsu. Tulak Hord (probably). Exar Kun. Bastila (probably). The Exile (possibly). Nomi Sunrider (probably).

I honestly can't thin of anymore biggies.

Originally posted by Malebolgia_02
Top 10 of the Rise of the Empire Era: 1000-0 BBYPalpatine. Yoda. Mace Windu. Dooku. Maul. Anakin. Obi-Wan. Ahsoka Tano. Cin Drallig. Anoon Bondara.


That's not all of them, but f*ck listing everyone that comes off as "proficient".

Originally posted by Malebolgia_02
Top 10 of the New Rebellion/Republic/New Jedi Order/Legacy Era: 0-40 ABY Luke. Caedus. Kyle Katarn. Corran Horn. Hyp Durron. Ganner "F*ck Everyone" Rhysode. Lumiya (possibly). Palpatine again. Jaina.


Again, that's not everyone.


Originally posted by Malebolgia_02
State feats and accolades that back up the larger portion of the 3 lists. No friggin way.

Can you even name 20 characters from each era?

That wield lightsabers? Maybe for Rise of the Empire.

Wait, do you have to give 20 per era, or 10? The confusion!

that is pretty confusing. and to be honest, its asking a lot of us.

Yes, especially us.

10 + 10 + 10 = 20

Hell, everyone knows that.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
10 + 10 + 10 = 20

Hell, everyone knows that. Well sorry, we're not all engineers.


And wait, who's... before the cat?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Wait, do you have to give 20 per era, or 10? The confusion!

20 per era.

I really don't think I can name 20 duelists in any era other than Empire.

LMAO @ Ashoka, LL.

I'd replace Tano, Bondara, and Drallig with any combination of the following: Fisto, Billaba, Bulq, Ventress, Grievous, or Koon.


NVM - I saw the disclaimer. My bad.

well i think to come up with three huge lists you would have to work together as opposed arguments, this topic would be more of a debate and the outocme would be an accurate conculsion

Why don't you whip up a list and we'll tell you why you're wrong?

That sounds fun, doesn't it?

Originally posted by Malebolgia_02
I have no idea who's who and where they r at.

How about you ask for the 5 most proficient from each era? That might be a little easier and less time intensive.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
How about you ask for the 5 most proficient from each era? That might be a little easier and less time intensive.

sure, top 5

Oh, that's easy

Bandon
Revan
Johun Othone
Opo Chano
N.

Coleman Trebor
QG Jinn
Kenobi
Ahsoka Tano
Jenn Abor

Caedus
Caedus
Caedus
Caedus
Caedus

Actually, that's really embarrassing.

I've asked a mod to edit in Plo and drop Kenobi.

Are you kidding me? The Old Republic is getting released soon. You know how much extra information that's going to give us?

I only have the energy to list the 5 best ever:

1. Kas'im
2. Mace Windu
3. Raskta Lsu
4. Bane
5. Yoda/Sidious

I don't think Windu's technical proficiency surpasses that of Yoda, who I would place at number 1.

Legacy era (130 ABY+):
1. Krayt
2. Wyyrlok
3. Cade
4. Vao (who pretty much only used sabers and held his own with practically everyone)
5. Nihl
6. Talon
7. Ganner Kreig

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I don't think Windu's technical proficiency surpasses that of Yoda, who I would place at number 1.

Mace mastered all seven forms, then created Vapaad himself...You can't fight any better than Yoda, but I believe his diminutive size kept him from mastering as many lightsaber forms.

He trained younglings for decades but was never a Jedi Battlemaster, that I've so far read.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Most entries can't be accurately placed in to an order, stuff becomes to foggy and subjective.

The Dread Lord Kas'im the Magnificent. Bane. Revan (probably). Malak (probably). Raskta Lsu. Tulak Hord (probably). Exar Kun. Bastila (probably). The Exile (possibly). Nomi Sunrider (probably).

I honestly can't thin of anymore biggies.

Palpatine. Yoda. Mace Windu. Dooku. Maul. Anakin. Obi-Wan. Ahsoka Tano. Cin Drallig. Anoon Bondara.


That's not all of them, but f*ck listing everyone that comes off as "proficient".

Luke. Caedus. Kyle Katarn. Corran Horn. Hyp Durron. Ganner "F*ck Everyone" Rhysode. Lumiya (possibly). Palpatine again. Jaina.


Again, that's not everyone.


No friggin way. Uhhmm,how do you get "probaly" out of Taluk Hord?The Duelist whos skilled shamed all,and made them look like children.

Originally posted by Darth Creasy
Mace mastered all seven forms, then created Vapaad himself...You can't fight any better than Yoda, but I believe his diminutive size kept him from mastering as many lightsaber forms.

He trained younglings for decades but was never a Jedi Battlemaster, that I've so far read.

It's never been stated canonically that Windu "mastered all seven forms."

And Mace Windu was never Battlemaster either, rendering that comment irrelevant.

Originally posted by Naga Sado
Uhhmm,how do you get "probaly" out of Taluk Hord?The Duelist whos skilled shamed all,and made them look like children. According to an in-universe Kreia, who, talent for deception and trickery aside, was not alive and present during Tulak's reign, nor the reigns of subsequent Ancient Lords. I'm not gonna take her one sentence, and her one sentence alone, as canonical fact.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

And Mace Windu was never Battlemaster either, rendering that comment irrelevant.

Yes. Battlemaster seems to be a teaching position- only occasionally does the very best duelist fill it.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes. Battlemaster seems to be a teaching position- only occasionally does the very best duelist fill it.

The Jedi Path disagrees. Battlemasters seem to possess the most refined dueling skill of their era, though naturally other colleagues may possess a more decisive advantage: Such as a superior strength in the Force. There's a reference to this by Count Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi in the book....

Can you bring up the quote so we may disect it?

Raskta Lsu was also portrayed as being extremely skilled. She killed more Sith than the Force Bomb.

Hm, on second though, Talon was good with a blade while Nihl used the force more... talon might be 4th-5th. Hard to say between her and Vao.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Raskta Lsu was also portrayed as being extremely skilled. She killed more Sith than the Force Bomb.

Yea, weak in the force, but she was carrying her team against Bane and Zannah. Only even went down to a shot from the back even.

Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia, actually.

Yet we have other sources that have stated Yoda didn;t master Juyo because of it's pull to the darkside.

Really? Mind posting it.

It was a sarcastic remark. Had something to do w/ an argument we had with Pwnd or whatever his name was (remember him?). I can't find the thread. It's here somewhere, but I'm not wasting any more of my time looking for it.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Smartass! Everyone knows Ashoka tops the list relative to her era, Kenobi is a joke, and Plo Koon rules the world (except for Tano of course).

Kenobi is supposed to be the definitive master of Soresu, I think you are selling him short.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Kenobi is supposed to be the definitive master of Soresu, I think you are selling him short.

FOR ***KS SAKE, it's SARCASM!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
It was a sarcastic remark. Had something to do w/ an argument we had with Pwnd or whatever his name was (remember him?). I can't find the thread. It's here somewhere, but I'm not wasting any more of my time looking for it.

Ah ok. It made some sense though as Sidious claims that Juyo is a Sith form because it is very dark.

Originally posted by ares834
Ah ok. It made some sense though as Sidious claims that Juyo is a Sith form because it is very dark. It may fit Sith well, but every source I've read lists Juyo as a Jedi form of combat- one that only a select few ever get to learn. You see, it's not that Juyo is an inherently 'dark sided' form of combat, but it does make it easier to embrace 'dark sided' emotions, which can subsequently sway a Jedi toward the dark side (hence why it is withheld from most Jedi students.)

Regardless, Yoda's bio states that he is a master of "all" lightsaber styles.

Originally posted by Galan007
It may fit Sith well, but every source I've read lists Juyo as a Jedi form of combat- one that only a select few ever get to learn. You see, it's not that Juyo is an inherently 'dark sided' form of combat, but it does make it easier to embrace 'dark sided' emotions, which can subsequently sway a Jedi toward the dark side (hence why it is withheld from most Jedi students.)

Here are the quotes.

"Proper execution puts a Jedi in violation of one of the Code's core precepts: There is no emption, there is peace."

To this Sidious says, "Not a surprise, Jedi. It is a Sith Style."

I'd assume that Sidious, being the scholar he is, would know about stuff like this.

Anther quote, "You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and rage to color your actions."

That seems pretty dark sided to me.



Yeah, I know and I have the book and actually posted it awhile back.

Originally posted by ares834
Here are the quotes.

"Proper execution puts a Jedi in violation of one of the Code's core precepts: There is no emption, there is peace."

To this Sidious says, "Not a surprise, Jedi. It is a Sith Style."

I'd assume that Sidious, being the scholar he is, would know about stuff like this.

Anther quote, "You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and rage to color your actions."

That seems pretty dark sided to me. You left out some essential bits of info...

"Vicious and unpredictable, Form VII requires a Jedi to attack under the guidance of controlled passion."

"Proper execution of Juyo seemingly puts a Jedi in violation of one of the Code's core precepts: "There is no emotion, there is peace." However, Form VII masters do not give themselves to emotion blindly. They channel their inner turmoil into a mental forge, which provides the passion to power their raw and furious strikes. A true expert keeps the emotions locked within the forge. Lesser practitioners of the art might allow their emotions to spill out during battle, poisoning their intentions and drawing them into the fury of a dark side rage."


Like I said: Juyo is a Jedi form of combat, but it's more widely adopted by the Sith, because it allows them to better channel their uncontrolled dark sided emotions during battle.

How does anything you typed contradict what I said? Even if it is controled emotion and rage you are still using the dark side. And Sidious directly claims it is a "Sith Style" while I have seen nothing that calls it a "Jedi style" specifically since Sidious is one of the most knowledgable FU in all of SW, however that doesn't mean the Jedi didn't adapt it to their use afterall the Sith use Jedi styles as well. The simple fact is to use Juyo one must use their rage... That is simply not the Jedi way!

Originally posted by ares834
How does anything you typed contradict what I said? Even if it is controled emotion and rage you are still using the dark side. And Sidious directly claims it is a "Sith Style" while I have seen nothing that calls it a "Jedi style" specifically since Sidious is one of the most knowledgable FU in all of SW, however that doesn't mean the Jedi didn't adapt it to their use afterall the Sith use Jedi styles as well. The fact that every source book I've read explains how a Jedi applies Juyo, is proof enough for me that it is a Jedi form of combat that has simply been more widely adopted by the Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
The simple fact is to use Juyo one must use their rage... That is simply not the Jedi way! Except it is a form of combat the Jedi teach to a select few- so this statement is actually incorrect.

As the excerpt I posted says: masters of Juyo do not give themselves over to their emotions blindly- instead, they utilize said emotions as a 'weapon of the light'.

Originally posted by Galan007
The fact that every source book I've read explains how a Jedi applies Juyo, is proof enough for me that it is a Jedi form of combat that has simply been more widely adopted by the Sith.

So because you believe it is a Jedi form it is? Sidious directly refers to it as a Sith Style and, out side of pure speculation, there is no reason to disbelieve him.



Except using one's rage is not the Jedi way been as it directly contradicts their code.



Where are you getting the statement "weapon of light" from?

Yea, and back in the KotoR era it wasn't even rare among Jedi, it's only post-New Sith Wars that Juyo's teaching was more restricted.

Originally posted by ares834
So because you believe it is a Jedi form it is? Sidious directly refers to it as a Sith Style and, out side of pure speculation, there is no reason to disbelieve him. You're completely ignoring the fact that every source book lists Juyo as a Jedi form of combat, and clinging to Palpatine's comment as though it, in some way, supersedes the source books themselves.

Originally posted by ares834
Except using one's rage is not the Jedi way been as it directly contradicts their code. False. The teaching of Juyo IS permitted amongst Jedi- but only a select few are chosen to learn it.

Originally posted by ares834
Where are you getting the statement "weapon of light" from? From Mace's statement regarding Vaapad- after all, Juyo and Vaapad tap into the exact same reservoir of emotions.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're completely ignoring the fact that every source book lists Juyo as a Jedi form of combat, and clinging to Palpatine's comment as though it, in some way, supersedes the source books themselves.

And I'll ask again. What book specifically refers to Juyo as a Jedi Style/Form rather than a Light Saber form?



I never said it wasn't permitted by the Jedi. I said using rage, which accroding to this battlemaster one must to fully use Juyo, goes against the Jedi Code.



Vaapad was specifically created by Windu to channel these emotions. If Juyo already did this why did Mace have to create Vaapad rather than use Juyo?

Originally posted by ares834
And I'll ask again. What book specifically refers to Juyo as a Jedi Style/Form rather than a Light Saber form? Any book that references the 7 forms of lightsaber combat...? But specifically, Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force spells it out pretty blatantly.

Originally posted by ares834
I never said it wasn't permitted by the Jedi. I said using rage, which accroding to this battlemaster one must to fully use Juyo, goes against the Jedi Code. No, it does not:

"Proper execution of Juyo seemingly puts a Jedi in violation of one of the Code's core precepts: "There is no emotion, there is peace." However, Form VII masters do not give themselves to emotion blindly. They channel their inner turmoil into a mental forge, which provides the passion to power their raw and furious strikes. A true expert keeps the emotions locked within the forge. Lesser practitioners of the art might allow their emotions to spill out during battle, poisoning their intentions and drawing them into the fury of a dark side rage."

Per the above, Juyo only goes against the Code IF the Jedi utilizing it allows their uninhibited emotions to spill out/control them during battle. Otherwise, it is simply another form of lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by ares834
Vaapad was specifically created by Windu to channel these emotions. If Juyo already did this why did Mace have to create Vaapad rather than use Juyo? No. A Juyo master does channel their inner darkness- ergo the "mental forge" referenced above. The only difference between Vaapad and Juyo, is that Vaapad also channels an opponent's darkness and turns it against them.

Originally posted by Galan007
Any book that references the 7 forms of lightsaber combat...? But specifically, Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force spells it out pretty blatantly.

Like Sidious's quote that is an in-universe source and I feel safe saying that Sidious it the more knowledgable. Furthermore, it does not refer to Juyo specifically as a Jedi Style but rather as a style of lightsaber combat.



"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion , and rage to color your actions."

"There is no passion , there is serenity."

That's a glairing contradiction.



Dodging. I will repeat my question, if it did that then why did Mace Windu feel the need to create a new form to do that for him?

Also there is no mention in that excerpt about channeling the darkness into a weapon of light as you claimed. Sure they lock away the emotions and then use them, but their is no mention of converting it into light as Mace mentions Vaapad does.

Originally posted by ares834
Like Sidious's quote that is an in-universe source and I feel safe saying that Sidious it the more knowledgable. Furthermore, it does not refer to Juyo specifically as a Jedi Style but rather as a style of lightsaber combat. No shyte. But the book is referring to how a Jedi applies Juyo in combat. In fact, every source book I've read references how a Jedi applies the form- not a Sith.

Trying to use a single comment from Palpatine, even though said comment was contradicted in the very next paragraph by the book itself is an enormously skewed line of 'logic'.

Originally posted by ares834
"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion , and rage to color your actions."

"There is no passion , there is serenity."

That's a glairing contradiction. Obviously not. As the source I've been referencing, along with every other source, notes: so long as you control your emotions, and they do not control you, you are not in violation of the code. Common sense dictates that if the study of Juyo put a Jedi in violation of the code, it would not be a form the Jedi teach to students. Simple.

Originally posted by ares834
Dodging. I will repeat my question, if it did that then why did Mace Windu feel the need to create a new form to do that for him? Odd that you would say I 'dodged' your question, when I answered it. srsly

The book blatantly states that Juyo allows it's master to channel their emotions in battle. Thus, the only discernible difference between it, and Vaapad, is that Vaapad also allows it's master to channel an opponents emotions/darkness in battle. End of story.

Originally posted by ares834
Also there is no mention in that excerpt about channeling the darkness into a weapon of light as you claimed. We know a Jedi-Juyo-master channels their raw emotions in battle- and as long as they remain in control of said emotions, we know that they are not swayed by the dark side/in violation of the code. So again: common sense dictates that the Jedi in question must be channeling their emotions into a 'weapon of the light', as opposed to a 'weapon of the dark'.

Originally posted by Galan007
No shyte. But the book is referring to how a Jedi applies Juyo in combat. In fact, every source book I've read references how a Jedi applies the form- not a Sith.

Every source book aslo refrences how Jedi apply the form Niman as well despite the fact that the Jedi did not develop it so in the end it's irrelevent.



Post this "contradiction" then.

Originally posted by Galan007
Odd that you would say I 'dodged' your question, when I answered it. srsly

The book blatantly states that Juyo allows it's master to channel their emotions in battle. Thus, the only discernible difference between it, and Vaapad, is that Vaapad also allows it's master to channel an opponents emotions/darkness in battle. End of story.

No you dodged it. But I'll ask a third time. Why did Mace devolp Vaapad if Juyo already allows one to channel one's own darkness into light?



Strange idea of common sense. Considering that there are several Jedi who use the dark side despite the fact that they remain in control of their emotions and don't fall to it.

Originally posted by ares834
Every source book aslo refrences how Jedi apply the form Niman as well despite the fact that the Jedi did not develop it so in the end it's irrelevent. Then why the fuk did you ask for a book that referred to it as such? srsly

Originally posted by ares834
Post this "contradiction" then. I have. Multiple times. You've simply been ignoring it, because you think Palpatine's comment supersedes it.

The source states that Juyo seemingly (key word) puts a Jedi in violation of the code- but then goes on to explain why/how true masters of the form are not in violation of the code. Like I said before: if Juyo did violate the code, the Jedi would NOT teach it to ANYONE- it would be a forbidden style. Just like force lightning is a forbidden force technique.

Originally posted by ares834
No you dodged it. But I'll ask a third time. Why did Mace devolp Vaapad if Juyo already allows one to channel one's own darkness into light? Good God. g007-psyduck

For the THIRD time, I'll answer this question: THE ONLY DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUYO AND VAAPAD IS THAT VAAPAD ALSO ALLOWS ITS USER TO CHANNEL AN OPPONENT'S DARKNESS IN BATTLE.

As was blatantly spelled out in the book: a Juyo master DOES channel their inner emotions, and IS in control of them. Why on earth you are arguing with a fact that was specifically stated in a canon source is entirely beyond me.

Originally posted by ares834
Strange idea of common sense. Considering that there are several Jedi who use the dark side despite the fact that they remain in control of their emotions and don't fall to it. And which Jedi would that/those be?

Regardless, that is essentially what I said: despite the seemingly 'dark' feelings a Jedi might be harnessing whilst using Juyo, their control over those feelings is what allows them to use Juyo as a 'weapon of the light'. Only lesser practitioners of the form allow those uncontrolled feelings to spill out during battle, subsequently leading them toward the dark side.

Originally posted by Galan007
Then why the fuk did you ask for a book that referred to it as such? srsly

I'm saying that just becasue source books show how a Jedi uses a form doesn't mean the Jeid invented it.



No. The next paragraph makes no mention of it being a Jedi style only that they use it (which I have never denied). Sidious says it's a "sith style" which seems to indicate that they created it. However, that doesn't mean that Jedi won't use it afterall Sith will use "Jedi styles" as well.



lol. How does that answer my question? It doesn't. According to RotS, Windu made Vaapad to channel his own darkness into light, not his opponents. If Juyo already did this he would not have needed to develop the form.



I never said that a Jedi isn't in control of it only they are using the darkside and are using rage.



Kyle Katarn, Jaden Koor, Plo Koon, etc...



Just because you have control over these dark feelings doesn't mean that it becomes light.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm saying that just becasue source books show how a Jedi uses a form doesn't mean the Jeid invented it. So you believe the Sith invented the form simply because of Palpatine's comment? Even though all source books explain it from a Jedi point of view? Even though the next paragraph explains why the portion Palpatine underlined was incorrect? Wow.

Originally posted by ares834
No. The next paragraph makes no mention of it being a Jedi style only that they use it (which I have never denied). Sidious says it's a "sith style". However, that doesn't mean that Jedi won't use it afterall Sith will use "Jedi styles" as well. Red herring. The argument you've been making is that to use Juyo, a Jedi must also be using the dark side by proxy. As the source extrapolates on: Juyo masters are NOT tainted by the dark side because they keep their emotions in check- ie. the mental forge. It is only lesser practitioners who allow themselves to be swayed.

And you failed to address this part of my quote: "Like I said before: if Juyo did violate the code, the Jedi would NOT teach it to ANYONE- it would be a forbidden style. Just like force lightning is a forbidden force technique."

Originally posted by ares834
lol. How does that answer my question? It doesn't. According to RotS, Windu made Vaapad to channel his own darkness into light, not his opponents. If Juyo already did this he would not have needed to develop the form. According to the source book (which you've selectively picked a few quotes to base your argument from) a Juyo master DOES channel their OWN darkness into a weapon of the light as well. Ergo, there's only one difference between the forms.

Originally posted by ares834
I never said that a Jedi isn't in control of it only they are using the darkside and are using rage. Only lesser practitioners allow themselves to be tainted by the dark side. Masters of Form VII do not.

Originally posted by ares834
Kyle Katarn, Jaden Koor, Plo Koon, etc... Can't attest for the other 2, but I know Plo Koon was not utilizing dark sided emotions when he manifested force lightning.

Originally posted by ares834
Just because you have control over these dark feeling deosn't mean that it becomes light. This poor logic would also apply to Vaapad, then. I mean, just because Mace is in control of his feelings (just like Juyo masters are) doesn't mean it becomes light... Right? srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
So you believe the Sith invented the form simply because of Palpatine's comment? Even though all source books explain it from a Jedi point of view?

This is why I brought up the point about Niman. Sure every source book may talk about how the Jedi use it but they did not develop it. Furthermore there is nothing that contradits it. Ergo, I'm going to believe one of the most knowledgable people in the mythos.



And yet nothing he says was proven incorrect.



Except using your rage/anger/hate is the dark side... Thats Force 101 and comes directly from ESB.



I'm not quite sure why you brought it up to be honest. I never said it was forbidden to the Jedi... Regardless, Force Lightning isn't forbidden as Jedi such as Korr use it.



Lol... There is no mention of channeling darkness into light. Channeling darkness into a mental forge=/=channeling it into light.



Yeah, which is why I've always said they were being tainted by the darkside...



Nope. Unlike Juyo we have actual quotes that show that through some unknown means it turns darkness into light.

In a nutshell, what's the argument here? What's the issue with Juyo being a Sith style?

Sidious said it was?

N.
Sidious said it was?

ya, I have The Jedi Path.

I meant what's the problem with that.

No problem, they're just arguing whether its true or not. I think.

N.
No problem, they're just arguing whether its true or not. I think.

Then we best leave this to the sexually frustrated. Let's get out of here, my dear.

d0vxUoJPBM0&feature=related

Grrrrrrrrr.

Is that a yes? vin

That was a sexualised growling noise juxstiposed with a animu child making a similar, albeit cuter, noise.

What do you think? http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/estahuh.gif

N.
That was a sexualised growling noise juxstiposed with a animu child making a similar, albeit cuter, noise.

What do you think? http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/estahuh.gif

One can never tell with you.

Originally posted by ares834
This is why I brought up the point about Niman. Sure every source book may talk about how the Jedi use it but they did not develop it. Furthermore there is nothing that contradits it. Ergo, I'm going to believe one of the most knowledgable people in the mythos. And I'll believe the Jedi wouldn't teach a Sith style to their students. To believe the Jedi order would knowingly/willingly expose students directly to the dark side is an absolutely ludicrous line of thinking that goes against the entire philosophy of the order.

Originally posted by ares834
And yet nothing he says was proven incorrect. Quite wrong. At this point it seems that you are being obtuse and ignoring what was blatantly written.

The source states that Juyo only "seemingly" puts a Jedi in violation of the code, but then goes on to explain that masters of the Form keep their emotions in check (mental forge)- thus they are not tainted by the dark side. It's only when lesser users of the form allow their emotions to spill out wildly that they can be led down that path. This shyte was specifically stated in the source. Stop arguing with it.

Originally posted by ares834
Except using your rage/anger/hate is the dark side... Thats Force 101 and comes directly from ESB.There is no source stating that a Form VII master must also be tapping the dark side by proxy. Not. One.

It brings you close to the dark side, yes. However, coming close to the dark side =/= directly tapping/channeling the dark side. That's logic 101.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not quite sure why you brought it up to be honest. I never said it was forbidden to the Jedi... Regardless, Force Lightning isn't forbidden as Jedi such as Korr use it. Yeah, well, that's the NJO for ya. I can assure you that FL was very much a forbidden technique when Yoda was running things- and for good reason.

Originally posted by ares834
Lol... There is no mention of channeling darkness into light. Channeling darkness into a mental forge=/=channeling it into light.
If you're a Jedi.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent while not being swayed/tainted by the dark side whatsoever.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent while not being swayed/tainted by the dark side whatsoever, then you must be using those emotions for good, as opposed to evil.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent while not being swayed/tainted by the dark side whatsoever, then you must be using those emotions for good, as opposed to evil- ergo you are utilizing Juyo as a 'weapon of the light'.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/Logic.jpg

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, which is why I've always said they were being tainted by the darkside... Again: Juyo brings you close to the dark side- but coming close to the dark side =/= directly tapping the dark side.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Unlike Juyo we have actual quotes that show that through some unknown means it turns darkness into light. *sighs* Yeah, and we only have logic for Juyo. g007-psyduck

Originally posted by Galan007
And I'll believe the Jedi wouldn't teach a Sith style to their students. To believe the Jedi order would knowingly/willingly expose students directly to the dark side is an absolutely ludicrous line of thinking that goes against the entire philosophy of the order.

Since when has speculation and beliefs replaced canon? We have a knowledgable in-universe source stating that Juyo is a Sith style. And they aren't exaclty willing to give the secrets of Juyo to any Jedi... It is a very restricted from afterall.


I love how you say I'm arguing against it (I'm not) yet you are arguing against another line in the book... Hypocrisy much? Regardless, none of that contradicts what Sidious says.



Yes there is...

"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and rage to color your actions."

"Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they."

Thus to truly be using Juyo you must use the emotions that are the dark side not those of the Light.



It doesn't just bring you close it actively uses the emotions that are of the dark side.



Plo Koon was using it. Admittedly he doesn't appear to be using the darkside. Futhermore, Korr continues using the FL after Luke and hir order return to the more orthadox view of the force. Still not sure how this is relevant since I never said Juyo was forbidden.



Wrong. Using the dark side, even for good, does not neccesarily make it into "light". Afterall, the pathway to hell can be paved with good intentions.

Plus, if there is anything that the Mortis Trilogy shows us light=/=good nor does dark=/=evil. So sure it may be a "weapon for good" but not neccesarily "of light".

Originally posted by ares834
Since when has speculation and beliefs replaced canon? We have a knowledgable in-universe source stating that Juyo is a Sith style. And they aren't exaclty willing to give the secrets of Juyo to any Jedi... It is a very restricted from afterall. Yeah that's why I've said (multiple times) that Juyo is only taught to a select few students, because it can lead them down a path to the dark side. However, masters of the form know how to come close to the dark side without directly tapping/channeling it.

Originally posted by ares834
Regardless, none of that contradicts what Sidious says. Yes. It does. And like I said before: the Jedi simply would not teach a Sith/dark side style to their order. It's utterly ridiculous to assume otherwise.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes there is...

"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and rage to color your actions."

"Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they."

Thus to truly be using Juyo you must use the emotions that are the dark side not those of the Light. Again, practitioners of Form VII do come close to the dark side- but coming close =/= directly tapping it...

"They acknowledge that it is a dangerous regimen that may cut close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability." - Jedi/Sith: EGTTF

"This spiritually dangerous regimen cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability." - Star Wars Insider #62

Originally posted by ares834
It doesn't just bring you close it actively uses the emotions that are of the dark side. Negatory. At least 2 different sources (see above) state that a Jedi practitioner of Juyo comes "close" to the dark side. Coming close to the dark side =/= actively utilizing the dark side.

Originally posted by ares834
Plo Koon was using it. Admittedly he doesn't appear to be using the darkside. Per Plo Koon himself, he was not utilizing dark sided emotions when he manifested "electric judgement".

Originally posted by ares834
Wrong. Using the dark side, even for good, does not neccesarily make it into "light". Again: a master of Juyo can come close to the dark side, without directly tapping it.

Originally posted by ares834
Plus, if there is anything that the Mortis Trilogy shows us light=/=good nor does dark=/=evil. So sure it may be a "weapon for good" but not neccesarily "of light". Then please elaborate as to how Vaapad can be deemed a 'weapon of the light'. After all, it draws on the SAME emotions as Juyo + your opponent's darkness. If anything, it should be more dark/evil than Juyo, no?

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. It does. And like I said before: the Jedi simply would not teach a Sith/dark side style to their order. It's utterly ridiculous to assume otherwise.

Canon>your beliefs. And considering how no mention is made of the Sith creating the style (by the Jedi at leas) it isn't hard to believe that they don't know.



According to this guy they are.



First, this seems to be describing Vaapad rather than Juyo here, at least from the small excerpt you posted. Secondly Sith intensity=/=using the dark side in fact. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".



Sith intensity=/=using the dark side. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".



Sith intensity=/=using the dark side.



And my point with Jaden Korr still remains. Plus is there an actual reason to believe Koon is electric judement rather than FL?



Because it has some unique properties that Juyo does not have... I don't know how it works, but then I also don't know how the the superconducting loops works either. It just does.

Originally posted by ares834
First, this seems to be describing Vaapad rather than Juyo here, at least from the small excerpt you posted. No. Both quotes referenced Juyo, not Vaapad.

Originally posted by ares834
Secondly Sith intensity=/=using the dark side in fact. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".

Sith intensity=/=using the dark side. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".

Sith intensity=/=using the dark side.You're beginning to make no sense. "Sith intensity of focus on physical combat" absolutely equates to tapping the dark side. Incontrovertible.

...Unless you think "Sith intensity" entails a Sith channeling the light side of the force when they're engaging in lightsaber combat (I'm sure that's what Maul was doing.)


srsly

Originally posted by ares834
And my point with Jaden Korr still remains. Plus is there an actual reason to believe Koon is electric judement rather than FL?I thought EJ and FL were essentially the same ability, with a different title..?

Originally posted by ares834
Because it has some unique properties that Juyo does not have... I don't know how it works, but then I also don't know how the the superconducting loops works either. It just does. This simply does not suffice.
Fact: We know a master of Vaapad and a master of Juyo channel the exact same emotions in battle.
Fact: We know Vaapad also channels an opponent's darkness in battle.

So by your definition, it certainly would not be dubbed 'a weapon of the light'- but it WAS. So why would Juyo be any different?

Originally posted by Galan007
You're beginning to make no sense. "Sith intensity of focus on physical combat" absolutely equates to tapping the dark side. Incontrovertible.

Nope. "Focus on physical combat" denotes exactly what it means... Focus on physical combat. Meaning Juyo users focus on physical combat as intensely as the Sith. Which makes sense considering how difficult the form is to master. Furthermore, if we do take it your way, it just means they don't tap the darkness as intensely as Sith. RotS Anakin, for example, was called "half a Sith" (or something like that by Dooku) and yet he used the dark side against Dooku.



Eh, not really sure.



Because it is a different "form". Just because Vaapad has some unique funtcion that allows darkness to become light does not mean Juyo has it. Afterall, Windu created Vaapad specifically for that reason, he wouldn't have needed to do so if Juyo already did such a thing.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. "Focus on physical combat" denotes exactly what it means... Focus on physical combat. Meaning Juyo users focus on physical combat as intensely as the Sith. Nonsense. "Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability" equates to channeling the dark side in battle. Simple.

Originally posted by ares834
Furthermore, if we do take it your way, it just means they don't tap the darkness as intensely as Sith. A Jedi practitioner of Juyo comes close to the dark sided intensity of a Sith in battle- that's why Juyo is "the most dangerous Form in regard to falling to the dark side". However, a Juyo master's channeling of those emotions is what prevents them from directly tapping the dark side. It's what can make Juyo a 'weapon of the light'.

Originally posted by ares834
Because it is a different "form". Just because Vaapad has some unique funtcion that allows darkness to become light does not mean Juyo has it. Afterall, Windu created Vaapad specifically for that reason, he wouldn't have needed to do so if Juyo already did such a thing. Vaapad and Juyo each fall under Form VII of lightsaber combat. They each require the same type of emotions in battle. They each channel those emotions.

The only difference between them is that Vaapad channels an opponent's darkness as well. Thus if the emotions required for Vaapad can be used as a 'weapon of the light', common sense dictates that the emotions required in Juyo can as well.

I thought the whole point of Mace creating Vaapad was to channel his own inner darkness into a weapon of light. Why would he go through the trouble of creating a new form if juyo already did that?

Yes, vaapad also allows Mace to channel another opponents darkness, but that is not the reason he created it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I thought the whole point of Mace creating Vaapad was to channel his own inner darkness into a weapon of light. Why would he go through the trouble of creating a new form if juyo already did that? The source book states that Juyo masters do channel their inner turmoil. So I dunno what the fuk Mace was talking about..?

Originally posted by Galan007
Nonsense. "Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability" equates to channeling the dark side in battle. Simple.

Eh no. I don't see how that interpretaion comes from the text. If taken literally, and I don't see why we wouldn't take it that way unless you have proof, it would mean that a Jedi who mastered Juyo "focus"ed on "physical combat abilty" as "intesely" as a "Sith".



You still have no evidence of it turning darkness into a 'weapon of light' other than speculation.



Notice how I said "form". They are technically of the same form, yet are different variations.



How does common sense dictate this? Afterall, Juyo uses the same emotions of Vaapad, yet doesn't have a super conducting loop. So why does 'weapon of light' get a free pass?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I thought the whole point of Mace creating Vaapad was to channel his own inner darkness into a weapon of light. Why would he go through the trouble of creating a new form if juyo already did that?

Yes, vaapad also allows Mace to channel another opponents darkness, but that is not the reason he created it.

Originally posted by ares834
Eh no. I don't see how that interpretaion comes from the text. If taken literally, and I don't see why we wouldn't take it that way unless you have proof, it would mean that a Jedi who mastered Juyo "focus"ed on "physical combat abilty" as "intesely" as a "Sith". Strawman, much?

If a Jedi were fighting with the same intensity as a Sith, they would be tapping the dark side (obviously.) And while a Jedi master of Juyo may come "close" to that level of intensity, coming close to the dark side =/= directly channeling it. Simple.

Originally posted by ares834
You still have no evidence of it turning darkness into a 'weapon of light' other than speculation. Other than plainly obvious logic, you mean? If a Jedi uses Juyo for good, he is using it as a weapon of the light. Simple.

Originally posted by ares834
How does common sense dictate this? Afterall, Juyo uses the same emotions of Vaapad, yet doesn't have a super conducting loop. So why does 'weapon of light' get a free pass? The superconducting loop is the only discernible difference between Juyo and Vaapad. That said, if Mace were battling an opponent and couldn't channel their own darkness to form the superconducting loop (for whatever reason) then he would essentially just be using Juyo against them. Simple.


Sidenote: Are you getting as bored with this as I am?

I side with Galan on the matter, btw.

Originally posted by Q99
I side with Galan on the matter, btw. We've all been tensely waiting which side you'd join.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes... This will probably be my last post on the matter. Originally posted by Galan007
I feel the same way.

Me too.

Yeah, I'm done with this topic as well.

Yea, I can no longer see the J, U, Y, and O keys on my keyboard. I think that is a dead giveaway that I/we have spent WAY too much time in this thread saying the exact same things. ermmnone