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Dr. Doom and Kang are messing with the time stream and are threatening to collapse reality. It's time for our favorite madman with a box to step in. One month of prep for Dr. Who to take out the team they are unaware of his attempt. Dr. Who is bent on killing the pair as it is too dangerous to just stop them or lock them away.

Who always wins.

So Who gets a month of onesided prep...?

Doom

Matt Smith with the Fez for the Win!

Stop calling him who.

His name is The Doctor.

Anyway The doctor could tech stomp either of these 2 but doom's magic is an autowin

Who?

Keeping narrative "truths" for each character in mind, the Doctor, properly, doesn't deal in "magic", though his stories/show-history provide narrative means for him to deal with such things. Doom's magic doesn't equal an auto-win, given that context.

However, the Doctor having "prep", as such, isn't really the key to his winning: while he is good at long-term planning (as his 7th incarnation indicated, handily), his greatest strength lies in his spontaneousness -- he's better on the fly, more often than not, than when he tries to plot things out, and that's how he pulls most of his wins out of his ass.

Still, though, Doom is a beast, and his "narrative" comparison in "Whovian" terms would be his being the Master... *after* the Master, say, usurped Rassilon's power.

*****

In forum terms, this would end in a split -- both characters have "trump power" for winning: Doom's cunning and magic makes for wins, and the Doctor's cleverness backed by a god-level temporal being/"vehicle" makes for his. On a narrative level, the Doctor "wins", in terms of stopping Doom, but Doom escapes and/or returns to raise hell at another time, thus being "undefeatable", and costing the Doctor dearly in terms of attrition.

Kang, to be honest, is a non-factor in this, and is overshadowed by the two primary combatants (no offense to Kang, but this is a case where the *narrative* truth simply is too great to ignore, and overrides the Forum Rules, contextually, due to the demonstrated feats involved).

The thread stips make this a bit unfair. In a no-prep scenario, The Doctor loses this every time. In a prep scenario for both, we have no real way of knowing and we'd be talking simply in terms of "something out of 10." Prep for only one side obviously favors that side. Even with magic to aid Doom, the Doctor with a month's prep easily trumps Doom standing around idly.

Originally posted by Digi
The thread stips make this a bit unfair. In a no-prep scenario, The Doctor loses this every time. In a prep scenario for both, we have no real way of knowing and we'd be talking simply in terms of "something out of 10." Prep for only one side obviously favors that side. Even with magic to aid Doom, the Doctor with a month's prep easily trumps Doom standing around idly. Pretty much.

Although with equal prep I'd say Doom takes it alone, adding in Kang makes it a sure thing.

Originally posted by Mindset
Pretty much.

Although with equal prep I'd say Doom takes it alone, adding in Kang makes it a sure thing.

Both Doctor and Doom can claim universe affecting/destroying prep feats, so at that point I don't think adding in another player makes much difference. It would be whose doomsday device you believe in more.

Doom comes with more than just doomsday devices though, namely magic. Adding Kang would be like having two Doctors vs Doom. It will definitely have an impact.

Not sure I understand that reasoning. Both of them with prep could potentially wreck a universe (or multiverse depending on interpretations). What is Kang bringing to the table that would trump that or get in their way? If he has another universe-wrecking plan, then great, that gives the team a 66% chance that theirs would work better or before Doctor's, instead of just a 50% one. Otherwise he's just a footnote. Powerful or not, if they simply go beyond his level in prep, he's not really going to help with anything.

Same with magic. Unless it's magic that can counter a doomsday device, how is it relevant. I realize it means he's more versatile, but if the power level is simply too great, versatility means nothing.

Dr. Who just goes back in time and kill them when they are weak. He doesnt even bother to fight them head on.

considering doom has had problems in the past with time travel, i think kang would fare better against the doctor than doom. especially if the doctor takes the fight into the timestream or something like null said

Originally posted by Digi
Not sure I understand that reasoning. Both of them with prep could potentially wreck a universe (or multiverse depending on interpretations). What is Kang bringing to the table that would trump that or get in their way? If he has another universe-wrecking plan, then great, that gives the team a 66% chance that theirs would work better or before Doctor's, instead of just a 50% one. Otherwise he's just a footnote. Powerful or not, if they simply go beyond his level in prep, he's not really going to help with anything.

Same with magic. Unless it's magic that can counter a doomsday device, how is it relevant. I realize it means he's more versatile, but if the power level is simply too great, versatility means nothing. Kang adds versatility, just like magic does. If both the Doctor and Doom have the same destructive abilities, versatility is what's going to be the deciding factor imo. Versatility has shown to trump power multiple times, especially magic which becomes pretty hax in that regard.

Talron, when did Doom have problems with time travel?

Btw, I don't see how making universe destroying devices would be beneficial for any team, especially the Doctor in this thread.

Originally posted by Mindset
Versatility has shown to trump power multiple times

Only to a point. Again, what does versatility give you when the Doctor can literally create a "push the button and the universe and timestream goes boom" weapon?

Originally posted by Mindset
Btw, I don't see how making universe destroying devices would be beneficial for any team, especially the Doctor in this thread.

The finale of the most recent season comes to mind, where the TARDIS is rigged to erase all of time. The Doctor reverses the process but is caught on the "wrong" side of the reversal and is (temporarily) erased. No reason he couldn't invert it to make himself the only thing that survives. Or a weapon that is keyed to his DNA signature, but will desotry literally everything else....which, granted, he'd have to reverse-engineer from Dalek tech (that he's easily manipulated and reversed, mind you, so it's believable that he could reproduce it). Actually, scratch that, he did the same feat earlier in his run but didn't have time to key it to Dalek DNA...instead it would've simply destroyed the planet and everything surrounding it. And it took him about 10 minutes with some random ship wiring to create it. With any more time he flatly admitted he could key it to any particular target and nothing else.

It just takes some imagination, and a good knowledge of his canon. There's probably other examples I'm forgetting. And Doom undoubtedly could bring his own.

bump

Since the scheme is a time-based one, the real question here is what Doom brings to the table. Even Zarrko nearly succeeded in rewriting the multiverse via time manipulation, and his time knowledge << Kang's; Kang has even said that that sort of thing is child's play, and that it doesn't interest him because he likes to conquer. If it were really Kang's goal to collapse the universe through time manipulation, there is only ONE person who could stop him: Kang. Besides, he is extremely unusual.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1628/kangboast.jpg

Originally posted by Simbon
Since the scheme is a time-based one, the real question here is what Doom brings to the table. Even Zarrko nearly succeeded in rewriting the multiverse via time manipulation, and his time knowledge << Kang's; Kang has even said that that sort of thing is child's play, and that it doesn't interest him because he likes to conquer. If it were really Kang's goal to collapse the universe through time manipulation, there is only ONE person who could stop him: Kang. Besides, he is extremely unusual.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1628/kangboast.jpg

That's...actually just silly logic. Yes, the only one who could stop Kang is Kang himself, nevermind anyone else in the thread with time manip feats to match or beat anything he's done.

I stand by what I said earlier. With lopsided prep, the person with the lopsided prep wins handily. With equal prep, it's whose high-end prep feats you put more weight on. Forum consensus would side with Doom there because there's better knowledge, but it's hardly obvious for those who are familiar with all 3.

Also, what would collapsing the universe do? I provided actual feats to suggest the Doctor could wipe out the entirety of the universe, minus himself. Does Kang have that specific feat?

...

I'm familiar with all 3.

Doom wins. sneer

Anyway, the Doctor rips open the time vortex in the TARDIS while safely tucked away in a time-free dimension (he has access to at least a couple of those from what I remember in the comics), thus destroying the universe or multiverse depending on your interpretation. He also simultaneously triggers a galaxy-busting bomb keyed to his DNA so that he is the only one unaffected. Both of these have canon examples to back them.

He then traps Doom in a mirror. Also a valid feat.



I dunno. Seems horribly one-sided to me, given the OP. Doom/Kang need prep to stand a chance. The Doctor and his inventions are a deus ex machina plot device. A wonderfully idiosyncratic plot device, which is why the show works so well, but a plot device nonetheless.

Read the op you noob, god!

Originally posted by Mindset
Read the op you noob, god!

What are you trying to say here? I directly reference the OP.

So he stops them from threatening reality by destroying it.

Fair enough.

Still, you're showing a lack of imagination. The fact that he can so easily scale to that level with prep means that he can just as easily do it on a smaller scale. Hell, the DNA-key thing I mentioned was something he whipped up in 10-15 minutes, all from loose supplies on a space station. So he makes the blast localized instead of galaxy-busting. Or he exposes them to the time vortex without actually ripping a universe-destroying hole in spacetime. This will burn them alive from the inside just from having witnessed it (which is what triggered one of his recent regenerations).

I use those two because they're easy, on the top of my head, and I haven't heard a legit defense against them. Fact is, there's dozens of Doctor feats spread through comics and the tv show that rival the two I'm referencing. I can't be bothered to dig them all up because, frankly, it's a vs. thread and I have other things to do. But it's lopsided prep for the Doctor, and thus a lopsided win.

How would he make them view the time vortex, you mean the one in his tardis, right?

The TARDIS is completely manipulable. Rooms, controls, etc. He's turned it inside out before, it's also had the walls and rooms other than the main control center disappear (granted, that was forced by an outside enemy, but it's a replicable occurrence).

Or the Doctor could build a new TARDIS. Also not outside his realm of expertise. Depending on which showing you believe, they're either built or grown, but he has the time...he's a Time Lord after all.

Mindset, do you actually disagree with me here, or are you playing devil's advocate? Doom has has limits, powerful as he is, sans prep. Frankly, I don't think anything he could do without prep would even penetrate the TARDIS, much less take out the Doctor with oodles of prep (seriously, a month to him is hundreds of nasty inventions).

When did he ever turn it inside out?

Does he even know how to make a Tardis, didn't it take multiple TL's years to make one?

It was in an old-timey comic where the TARDIS is going bonkers. He inverts it and is briefly in space.

The TARDIS can siphon energy by eliminating rooms in itself, can change its form at will (the Doctor just never fixed that function when it broke because he likes it as a blue box), and can run as bare-bones as is needed (heck, a couple episodes ago this current season the Doctor rode a makeshift TARDIS through space with no walls, just the control center. Which, btw, he also built quickly from a planet he would have access to in his prep time that is sort of a TARDIS junkyard). He could divert all power to a direct time attack and just bludgeon them with vortex energies.

Or materialize several TARDIS's on their location and warp spacetime until they are simply ripped apart.

Or the DNA-bomb.

Or a chronal prison that would prevent any sort of time travel, enabling him to attack Doom and Kang at a time of his choosing...maybe when they were babies (he's lusted in the OP after all)

Or...are you seeing my point yet? If not, I'm done giving examples. I feel like you're trying to poke a hole in a dam here, but using a screwdriver. Plausible means by which some invention doesn't work and Doom/Kang win, or there's no point to this.

I see you making things up.

You make me sick.

Originally posted by Mindset
I see you making things up.

You make me sick.

You've done very little recently but troll me when we interact. It seemed like harmless fun, but if this is going to be the norm, there's no reason for me to respond to you in anything but necessary matters.

As for the accusation, I've done my best to directly reference the show or comics and feats as often as possible, and only to use examples with feats that make the scenarios believable or provable. If you want to counter with actual evidence, please do. Otherwise, baseless claims are baseless. And with that, it seems I've wasted enough time with you.

Calm down.

Kang being pretty much inmune to time manipulation from the get to go actually adds quite a bit in this combat.

He sends the Doctor to Alioth and wins easily biscuits

The Doctor wins ... the Doctor always wins (his friends are not always so lucky though)

Originally posted by Digi
That's...actually just silly logic. Yes, the only one who could stop Kang is Kang himself, nevermind anyone else in the thread with time manip feats to match or beat anything he's done.

I stand by what I said earlier. With lopsided prep, the person with the lopsided prep wins handily. With equal prep, it's whose high-end prep feats you put more weight on. Forum consensus would side with Doom there because there's better knowledge, but it's hardly obvious for those who are familiar with all 3.

Also, what would collapsing the universe do? I provided actual feats to suggest the Doctor could wipe out the entirety of the universe, minus himself. Does Kang have that specific feat?

...

I had hoped that posting the ridiculous kang poster at the end would make it clear that I was not completely serious, but apparently that was not enough.

What I was serious about is that Kang's time-related feats are infinitely greater than doom's, and that he has multiversal level feats (like taking care of Alioth). Zarrko's time-bomb in Darkhawk 26-29 was set to collapse all of time into a single time-line where he was supreme, a plot which was foiled, but which was nevertheless a multiversal threat. Kang's time tech is >>>> Zarrko's, and he even references this strategy in Avengers Forever #3, and states that he is not interested in such games.

When all is said and done, yes, the Doctor has lopsided prep and probably wins. My only point is that putting it in terms of Dr. Who vs. Doom is wrong; it is Dr. Who vs Kang.

Originally posted by Simbon
I had hoped that posting the ridiculous kang poster at the end would make it clear that I was not completely serious, but apparently that was not enough.

What I was serious about is that Kang's time-related feats are infinitely greater than doom's, and that he has multiversal level feats (like taking care of Alioth). Zarrko's time-bomb in Darkhawk 26-29 was set to collapse all of time into a single time-line where he was supreme, a plot which was foiled, but which was nevertheless a multiversal threat. Kang's time tech is >>>> Zarrko's, and he even references this strategy in Avengers Forever #3, and states that he is not interested in such games.

When all is said and done, yes, the Doctor has lopsided prep and probably wins. My only point is that putting it in terms of Dr. Who vs. Doom is wrong; it is Dr. Who vs Kang.

Fair enough.

Yeah, Kang has some multiversal feats under his belts, and when it comes to time manipulation he's quite the biggest fish here, I like to joke saying he has done every time manipulation trick in the book -which isn't true, but he still has some crazy stuff-. The lack of prep just hurts team too much, so this is really not a combat.