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Cap beat Black Panther:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/ecq300/cap1.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/ecq300/cap2.jpg

Cap defeated Panther in contest of champions.
So, who wins and how much 1 to 10 fights?

Just look at Cap's words: "That's enough of that. Over 3 hours. Fury said you were good. But I'm better."

But DD...

The Chaste are known to ressurrect people, talk to people from the afterlife and Stick himself completely owned Wolverine in a fight. Stone meanwhile was able to trounce the living vampire Morbius with pathetic ease in the DD title as well. And the Chaste don't just teach four different types of martial arts, they teach a whole bunch of regular martial arts plus some really funky shit which borders on damn sorcery.

DareDevil at least is a definitive expert in boxing and ninjitsu. But he has learned from the Chaste at the very least almost all forms of Japanese combat including numerous forms of karate, judo, jujitsu and kendo. And recall that DareDevil was training in boxing since he was a little squirt and training with the Chaste since he was in his very early tweens. He trained with Elektra throughout college and she was a champion in a dozen martial arts herself and still was inferior to Matt in skill when they hanged out. Plus he's done lots of training with the Black Widow and to a lesser extent the other Avengers.

He's fought with Captain America four different times. The first time DD was under the mind control of some radioactive isotope and it was a fight that took most of the issue and was a through and through bare knuckled brawl which ended in a stalemate. The next time they met, Cap was under mind control and DD fought him to a stalemate until he could figure a way to end said mind control. Then they met again when DareDevil singlehandedly INFILTRATED the Avengers mansion. In rapid succession DD defeated Beast and Hercules in the dark and then took out Captain America in two moves. The latest time they met however, both of them were far from prime condition and Captain America won after a prolonged brawl although DD landed far more hits and DD stated that he was holding back.

DareDevil has stalemated Gambit, Moon Knight (wihtout radar sense), Venom and Iron Fist as well. He's defeated GhostMaker who himself was the equal of Shang Chi, Master of Kung Fu. DareDevil has had surprising success fighting Spider-Man. The first time they met, DareDevil handily won and had Spidey tied to a post at the end of the fight. Then a later issue had Spidey in his symbiotic uniform and DareDevil stalemated him there too, even complaining how DD was embarrassing him by putting up a fight. Said fight stopped when a police sniper fired his gun and after it fired, DD leaped in the path between the bullet and Spidey and swatted it out of the way thus showing his incredible reactions as well. DareDevil has also defeated Infomorph, a HYDRA android which absorbed the fighting skills of DareDevil, Captain America and HYDRA's best fighters and defeated the said android very quickly with his bare hands.

In the DareDevil arc 353-357, DareDevil met a very enraged (ie not a watered down version) Mr. Hyde and bluntly stated he wasn't playing around. My. Hyde attacks DareDevil who launches a single strike into the center of Hyde's chest, which causes Hyde to immediately stop breathing and get knocked flat almost instantly. And DareDevil has broken chains too. He ripped a prisoner free of a set of manacles on a prison ship. (in the same arc that he was struck by dynamite curiously enough) He's also knocked out a croc with one punch.

DareDevil has been shown to come back literally from the dead as in DareDevil 260 after he battled half of his rogues gallery, he fell off a bridge, died and using his training from Stick, ressurrected himself. The very dialogue itself says that DareDevil resuscitated his own heart, forced his skin to accelerate its healing process, reset his fractured bones back into place and then managed to get up, wander off to the hospital to check in. As soon as he checked into the hospital however, Mephisto invaded New York City with an army of demons. DareDevil gets out of his coma again, still completely bandaged from head to toe and starts walking through the city like a zombie, beating up demons and animated machines and objects left and right before taking on a demon which has fused with various machinery and has about a dozen limbs each ending in some various nasty tool. DareDevil beats his ass, then takes a trip on a subway where a giant demon is about to chomp on the subway full of people. DareDevil grabs his staff, leaps right at the demon who blasts him full force with a beam meant to strip apart his soul and smashing the demons head into pieces. He then, after the demons start to leave, goes to the local bar and buys himself a beer when he meets Mephisto itself.

DareDevil learned his healing arts from the Chaste who taught DareDevil how to come back from the dead. DareDevil has always been shown that once he goes into meditation, he can accelerate his healing. It was flat out stated openly by an FBI agent in DD #47 about a month ago after he was SET ON FIRE by Typhoid Mary.

DareDevil is literally the bravest and most fearless human on the planet. Dr. Strange himself said that DareDevil HAS NO FEAR when DD saved Dr. Strange from the Fear Lords.


As for DD's fighting ability:

-DareDevil: Man Without Fear miniseries- At the age of 17, DareDevil slew several of Mr. Fixer's goons whom had beaten his father (a professional heavyweight boxer) to death including a hugely muscular boxer whom he defeated with one strike.

-DareDevil 32- DareDevil battles Mr. Hyde and Cobra in a darkened lighthouse, despite for most of the fight being robbed of his super senses and having to rely solely on his acrobatics and martial skill. He stalemates them both until finally getting an antidote and then quickly defeats the villainous pair. This fight occurs after two days without rest or sleep and having previous scuffles with them and with Thor.

-DareDevil 43- A radioactively mind controlled DareDevil (who is not in top form) battles Captain America in a dragged out street brawl using only his fists against Captain America who still possesses his shield.

-Fantastic Four 73- The Human Torch, believing DareDevil to be possessed by Dr. Doom, ambushes DareDevil unsuccessfully and DareDevil defeats the Human Torch very quickly, luring him into a water tower. He later manages to escape getting wrapped up by Mr. Fantastic and gets in an interesting clash with Mr. Fantastic which is interrupted before a victor can be found.

-Avengers 82- DareDevil and Black Panther are defined in the issue as "so well-matched are these two, that there is no need for further words between them."

End of part 1...

Part 2...

-DareDevil 245- DareDevil stalemates the Black Panther after fighting a power armored Wakandan Royal Guardsmen with bulletproof armor, jet flight and the ability to rip apart tanks.

-DareDevil Annual 10- DareDevil with minor assistance from Elektra managed to defeat the armed Ghost Maker, a resurrected mystical warrior who earlier had stalemated Shang Chi in unarmed combat before driving him away when he snatched up some melee weapons.

-Marvel Knights 13- DareDevil and Shang Chi battle dozens of Dacoit warriors who swarmed them led by Zaran the Weapons Master. After Zaran decisively defeated Moon Knight in single combat, DareDevil assisted Shang Chi in overwhelming the Weapon Master.
-Captain America 234- DareDevil stalemates a mind controlled Captain America while also figuring out a way to cure Captain America of his condition.

-Captain America 375- DareDevil battles Captain America but is defeated after a prolonged fight. However DareDevil states he is far below his top form and that he is holding back a lot. In the following issue, DareDevil goes on to battle the near peak human villain known as Crossbones.

-DareDevil 318- DareDevil takes on Taskmaster, Pete London's gang, the Wildboys and Stiltman in a matter of minutes, defeating and capturing them all quickly and decisively.

-DareDevil 320- While recovering from a previous battle which literally exhausted him and practically burned most of his costume literally off his back, the Silver Sable attacks him and he manages to battle her to a stalemate before convincing her that she's in error.
-Daredevil 269- DareDevil takes on and defeats the mutants Pyro and Blob.

-DareDevil 292 to 293- DareDevil defeats the Taskmaster all by himself and then helps the Punisher take down Tombstone. And then DareDevil defeats the Punisher in order to stop him from killing either of the defeated villains.

-DareDevil 259- DareDevil fights in rapid succession much of his rogues gallery including Bullet, Bushwacker, the Wildboys and then his current girlfriend, Typhoid Mary culminating in his fatal drop off a bridge onto the solid ground below.

-DareDevil 232- DareDevil battles the super soldier Nuke who took incredible amounts of punishment and resisted everything from bone breaking maneuvers, eye gouges and nerve strikes until DareDevil finally found a way to defeat him and the gunship that was supporting him with cannon fire.

-Spectacular Spider-Man 287- DareDevil battles the symbiote Spider-Man and does it for part of the fight while in a fat suit. It ends in a stalemate.

-DareDevil 154- Far from recovering from previous injury, DareDevil is captured by the Purple Man and tossed into a prison which Killgrave has under his complete control. DD is then forced to battle Mr. Hyde, Gladiator, Jester and Cobra at the same time, eliminating all but Hyde when Paladin arrives. Together they defeat Mr. Hyde and then DD takes on a mob of armed prisoners and police guards and captures the Purple Man himself.

-DareDevil 155- DareDevil infiltrates the Avengers Mansion and takes out the power of the place. He then, in a most impressive display, defeats the Beast in hand to hand combat and then takes on and knocks out Hercules and Captain America at the same time by capturing Cap's shield with his own club and hurling it at the spine of Hercules, felling him, and then beats down Captain America in hand to hand combat. And the Avengers were not holding back since they did not know
DareDevil was the one attacking them and at the time DD was suffering from a screwed up radar sense and a severe concussion bordering which was serious enough to give him delusions.

-DareDevil 178- DareDevil and Iron Fist fight each other to a stalemate with neither warrior hitting each other despite their best attempts at trying to.
-DareDevil 199- During a mild earthquake which badly rattles DareDevil's already screwy radar sense, he storms a temple filled with highly trained katana wielding samurai who've spent literal years perfecting their craft and decisively defeats them all suffering one minor hit himself.
-DareDevil 205- Defeats the deadly, highly trained and armed Irish assassin Gael despite having his hands handcuffed behind his back.
-DareDevil 212- DareDevil defeats two angry adult tigers in hand to hand combat, dispatching of both of them with one hit each.
-DareDevil 321- Armored DareDevil battles the voodoo summoned demon known as Hellspawn. Furthermore Hellspawn was a completely silent, had no scent, and possessing a blinding degree of superspeed. Yet DareDevil manages, using ingenuity and his own skills, to overcome being practically blind in all ways by causing a chemical fire and using his radar sense to convert the heat into a thermogram and causes the demon to retreat.

-DareDevil 323- Armored DareDevil battles Venom and completely foils Venom's attacks while countering his far superior foe and actually making him reel in pain. The battle continues until Venom is persuaded to stop fighting.
-DareDevil ???- Namor calls DareDevil the greatest human fighter he has even known, and this guy knows Captain America, Black Panther, Black Knight and countless others who are very high in fighting ability.
-Daredevil 332- Armored DareDevil handily defeats a cybernetic member of HYDRA's System Crash named Infomorph, who had absorbed the data and skills of DareDevil, Captain America and whoever else HYDRA could get her to study or touch. DD defeats her quite quickly as well.
-DareDevil 16- DareDevil battles and achieves victory over Spider-Man and later saves Spidey's life when he is under the hypnotic control of the Ringmaster.
-Moon Knight 13- DareDevil, despite not being able to utilize his radar sense, is ambushed by Moon Knight and battle to a draw until they find out it was a case of mistaken identity. However midway through the fight, DareDevil managed to bind Moon Knights hands with his baton cable.
-DareDevil 353 to 357- DareDevil defeats a very angry Mr. Hyde with one blow, a simple pressure point strike right to the chest which causes the infinitely stronger villain to collapse and get knocked out of the fight almost immediately.
-DareDevil 50 (v.2)- DareDevil defeats, after fighting both Typhoid Mary and Bullseye, the Kingpin himself in a straight out brawl.
-DareDevil 57 (v.2)- DareDevil takes on a hundred Yakuza ninjas, many juiced up on MGH (which gives one temporary superpowers) and armed with sticks, knives, katanas, firearms etc. By the time the fight is interrupted, DareDevil has taken out a good portion of the bad guys and is still in fighting mode.
-Punisher 34 (v.4)- DareDevil dodges a slash from Wolverine and then incapacitates Wolverine with one strike to the throat.
-DareDevil Annual 1- DareDevil battles Electro, Gladiator, Matador, Stilt-Man and Leap-Frog individually or in pairs and then at the end of the issue, defeats them all at once handily and does it all in just one day.
-Wolverine 24 (v.???)- DareDevil, as he is sleeping, is ambushed by an even more powerful version of Wolverine and a large number of Hand ninjas. In the battle, DareDevil defeats all of the Hand Ninjas and then defeats Wolverine, knocking him down on a sword which temporarily incapacitated Wolverine.
DareDevil 70 (v.2)- DareDevil offers one impromptu training session to the new White Tiger. She is good enough to stop three armed robbers, and then later defeat the armed and armored Gladiator later in the issue.
-DareDevil is an expert in the use of pressure points, instant bone break maneuvers, chi strikes, deathblows and nerve cuts and other near mystical martial arts moves due to his incredible training. (DD 10, 18, 155, 166, 201, 232, 247, 322, 353-357 AMS 396, DDv.2 28, 45, PUNv.4 34)

End of part 2...

Part 3...

DareDevil specific Stealth Training: (considered the best of the Hand or Chaste ninjas)
-DareDevil 220- DareDevil manages to infiltrate a Neo-Fascist stronghold, bypassing thermal sensors, security cameras, and sound and respiration detectors. (each explicitly stated as such, Batman needs a pansy suit)
-DareDevil 216- DareDevil infiltrated Fiske's holdings and stole numerous real estate files relating to the Kingpin without him knowing about it for weeks.
-DareDevil 169- As Matt Murdock, he dissapeared during a face to face interview on a local talk show right under the noses of the interviewer and entire TV and studio crew upon hearing of Bullseye's escape.
-DareDevil 9- DareDevil infiltrates the Duke of Lichtenbad's highly advanced royal castle despite not being able to use one of his arms.
-DareDevil 74 (v.2)- Matt Murdock literally appears amidst a group of people who have been holding a very long conversation in private, never noticing Matt Murdock was sitting in between two of them the entire time. This happens after someone says that DareDevil knows so many ninja tricks, that he can even hide in plain sight until he decides he wants to be noticed.

Stealth Training via the Hand/ Chaste:
-DareDevil Ninja Miniseries- Dozens of Hand Ninjas literally swarm over DareDevil in hand to hand combat, pinning him to the ground when as soon as they hear incoming police sirens, they literally dissapear into thin air leaving DareDevil clearly all by himself.
-DareDevil Ninja Miniseries- More then a dozen Hand Ninjas are able to infiltrate a heavily guard airport and kill two Chaste members before dissapearing without a trace once the authorities arrive.
-DareDevil 322- In under a second, several Hand ninjas including Tekagi dissapear into thin air leaving absolutely no trace or scent behind and easily evading the sensors of SHIELD.
Osaku:
-DareDevil 319- One unexceptional Hand Ninja has reportedly once successfully hidden under a President's bed to blackmail him, led a dictator to safety from the middle of a desert war and in this particular issue, manages to casually infiltrate the Pentagon's inner vault to steal a top secret confidential file held within the building.
-Elektra (v.2) 18- One of three elite Hand Ninjas, in broad daylight in the middle of the desert is walking wide out in the open amongst numerous investigators without apparently making any sign of trying to hide himself and simply waks up behind one of the men and snaps his neck before, still unnoticed, going off to kill the rest of the group.

Basically, DD would beat Cap by outsmarting him, because it would end up in eternal stalemate.

Daredevil defeated Infomorph who essentially is Captain America cyborg and absorbed fighting abilities of DD, Captain America and etc... I just know that DD will outsmart Cap and beat, after all DD knows Cap is his physical superior.
The question remains if it's the fight to the death-in that situation DD would use smarts to beat Cap.

As for Cap fighting against more powerful opponents and holding his own and beat them, Cap had a shield which was a key to his successful victories over the more powerful opponents. Give DD Cap's shield and than you'll see the difference.

What do you think?

And do you think Captain America is equally fearless as Daredevil?
Thanks for your opinions.

Both of the characters step out of the pages of the comics and stomp *your ass* for bringing the terms "Wall Post"/"Wall of Text" to a whole new level...

*****

Captain America, though not without major bruising to show for it: 6/10 or so. DD's wins come from his having greater finesse and an agility advantage, though that is mitigated by Steve having comparable reflexes, and being stronger/more enduring.

And yes -- Cap is just as fearless as DD.

Originally posted by tideoftime
B DD's wins come from his having greater finesse and an agility advantage, though that is mitigated by Steve having comparable reflexes, and being stronger/more enduring.

And yes -- Cap is just as fearless as DD.

Common error, just because DD uses his agility more in his style of fighting, doesn't mean he's more agile than Cap. Cap is just as or more agile.

Cap wins 10/10, each fight being quite tough.


to the op
a 4 post opening is not warranted, both these characters have a respect thread, and no one will read 4 full posts of fluff, especially when you're dealing with 2 of the most popular martial artists in marvel earth.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Common error, just because DD uses his agility more in his style of fighting, doesn't mean he's more agile than Cap. Cap is just as or more agile.

Cap wins 10/10, each fight being quite tough.


to the op
a 4 post opening is not warranted, both these characters have a respect thread, and no one will read 4 full posts of fluff, especially when you're dealing with 2 of the most popular martial artists in marvel earth.

Given, though, that the battles here on the Forum are supposed to be weighed more by *demonstrated* feats, as opposed to simple narrative reference, DD *is* more agile than Captain America, for Forum Rule purposes... yeah, I know -- it's tricky in the analysis that way... but it does ring more consistant that way. It's similar, for cross-comparison, to how Spiderman is more agile than Spiderwoman, though their simple physical attributes are comparable -- his applied feats of *agility*, however, are much greater than hers, while her *reflexes* are demonstratively comparable (though she doesn't have a SS like he does, which does skew things a touch, but that is what makes it narratively a good comparison in terms of CA vs. DD. with the latters extra-sensory abilities).

And I'm sorry: while I like CA quite alot, and moreso than DD, it would be an injustice to say he'd WTF stomps in this (which, giving him the 10/10 is comparable to saying); he gets the majority -- that's no question -- but DD will make him work for it, and DD can certainly get wins. Now, can someone argue Steve might get 7, or even 8, via superior strength/stamina, alone? Perhaps. But not a stomp.

cap would take the solid majority imo, but each fight would be very difficult. taking the heavy majority does not make it a stomp imo as each fight would not be.

Originally posted by tideoftime

And I'm sorry: while I like CA quite alot, and moreso than DD, it would be an injustice to say he'd WTF stomps in this (which, giving him the 10/10 is comparable to saying)

Not at all

This is 10 individual random encounters - they fight - DD makes it quite tough for Cap - But in the end, Steve wins 10 times. No one gets stomped here.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Not at all

This is 10 individual random encounters - they fight - DD makes it quite tough for Cap - But in the end, Steve wins 10 times. No one gets stomped here.

I understand your point, and where you're coming from, but I'm trying to clarify what 10/10 more contextually indicates: a consistant beat-down that stems from there being no general possibility of the opposition winning (barring, of course, PIS/CIS, and Jobbing). And while I can respect the *idea* of CA being the whoop-ass machine (which, at his level, he *is* -- not denying that for a minute), it is taking things out of context to say he'd 10/10 someone like DD, who while not physically as strong, is in the same league skill-wise, is *at least* as agile (so we don't argue about that), has comparable reflexes (if, at the very least, due to his senses), and is not that far below him on the stamina/durability scale (as they are both in the upper ranges of human limits, with Cap having just a touch of a metahuman edge).

In that context, DD getting beat-down 10/10 is more based on Steve's imposing Jobber-Aura (much like Wolverine's in relation to people he has no business fighting, let-alone beating) than on his being *that* much better than DD.

DD can get wins, he's just certainly not taking a majority, and if it was a case of simple Pass/Fail, then of course CA would get the pass. But it isn't -- it's a ratio-scale. And CA may be one of the top-tier heroes of all time (and he is, much like Batman, Spiderman, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc), but he *isn't* that much above DD, in a Forum Fight. Narratively? Oh, by a mile or more -- of course. Forum Context? No.

Originally posted by tideoftime
I understand your point, and where you're coming from, but I'm trying to clarify what 10/10 more contextually indicates: a consistant beat-down that stems from there being no general possibility of the opposition winning (barring, of course, PIS/CIS, and Jobbing). And while I can respect the *idea* of CA being the whoop-ass machine (which, at his level, he *is* -- not denying that for a minute), it is taking things out of context to say he'd 10/10 someone like DD, who while not physically as strong, is in the same league skill-wise, is *at least* as agile (so we don't argue about that), has comparable reflexes (if, at the very least, due to his senses), and is not that far below him on the stamina/durability scale (as they are both in the upper ranges of human limits, with Cap having just a touch of a metahuman edge).

In that context, DD getting beat-down 10/10 is more based on Steve's imposing Jobber-Aura (much like Wolverine's in relation to people he has no business fighting, let-alone beating) than on his being *that* much better than DD.

DD can get wins, he's just certainly not taking a majority, and if it was a case of simple Pass/Fail, then of course CA would get the pass. But it isn't -- it's a ratio-scale. And CA may be one of the top-tier heroes of all time (and he is, much like Batman, Spiderman, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc), but he *isn't* that much above DD, in a Forum Fight. Narratively? Oh, by a mile or more -- of course. Forum Context? No.


Almost every battle between them, DD would for some reason not be at his prime or he would use amateur tactics because of some weird mental state he is in or "CIS". In Cap # 375, he couldnt anticipate Caps moves? Because the super soldier serum frustrates his senses? Then it was hard for him to "read" Crossbones moves? Thats PIS and bad writing IMO. He is able to read spiderman who is many times more faster than captain america and crossbones combined. DD has already anticipated Caps moves before when he invaded the avengers. Thats just inconsistent writing. Also he has mentioned he was off his "game" and was exhausted from a metaphysical struggle before that arc. So he wasnt even 50% IMO lol But he also got taken down pretty stupid in that issue with a punch to the back of the head after a punch to the gut and he calls that a beating? it was So bad he still couldnt recover when he fought crossbones?

Cap is still human and can be hurt like any other human. If his own momentum can be used against him to throw him into a wall head first he will certainly knockout! If i remember correctly Korvac through Cap into a wall head first and died. Daredevil would use a fatal nerve strike against Cap just like he has on wolverine. As well as the Avengers fight.

Writers needed to screw DD's superhuman senses so Cap can fight him to a draw, or weaken DD so Cap can beat him-but the fact remains that Cap never KOed DD, unlike DD did in Avengers mansion.
And I agree with him. Cap would lose to DD because of superior agility/dexterity. If it's fight to the death, DD would win, because he is willing to use any means to kill Cap with greater agility, superhuman senses and strategy.
Not to mention that DD is the most fearless human on Earth.
DD wins 6/10 over Cap.

Looks like Mister Supreme made his homework.

Originally posted by Mister Supreme
Almost every battle between them, DD would for some reason not be at his prime or he would use amateur tactics because of some weird mental state he is in or "CIS". In Cap # 375, he couldnt anticipate Caps moves? Because the super soldier serum frustrates his senses? Then it was hard for him to "read" Crossbones moves? Thats PIS and bad writing IMO. He is able to read spiderman who is many times more faster than captain america and crossbones combined. DD has already anticipated Caps moves before when he invaded the avengers. Thats just inconsistent writing. Also he has mentioned he was off his "game" and was exhausted from a metaphysical struggle before that arc. So he wasnt even 50% IMO lol But he also got taken down pretty stupid in that issue with a punch to the back of the head after a punch to the gut and he calls that a beating? it was So bad he still couldnt recover when he fought crossbones?

Cap is still human and can be hurt like any other human. If his own momentum can be used against him to throw him into a wall head first he will certainly knockout! If i remember correctly Korvac through Cap into a wall head first and died. Daredevil would use a fatal nerve strike against Cap just like he has on wolverine. As well as the Avengers fight.

Writers needed to screw DD's superhuman senses so Cap can fight him to a draw, or weaken DD so Cap can beat him-but the fact remains that Cap never KOed DD, unlike DD did in Avengers mansion.
And I agree with him. Cap would lose to DD because of superior agility/dexterity. If it's fight to the death, DD would win, because he is willing to use any means to kill Cap with greater agility, superhuman senses and strategy.
Not to mention that DD is the most fearless human on Earth.
DD wins 6/10 over Cap.

Uhm... did you quote me by mistake?
*I'm* the one only arguing a simple 6/10 in favor of Cap, which while not in agreement with your assessment, is only a moderate shift from it (6/10 for Cap as opposed to 6/10 for DD, which while I don't agree with, as such, I do still acknowledge as a viable arguement).

It was *Juk3n* who says Cap takes 10/10.

Maybe you accidentally skipped over him to me?

Daredevil has better reflexes then Cap and his reactions go way beyond anything Cap has shown.
Cap has him with Strength and possibly skill but Daredevil's propensity to go for nerve centers that can KO people with Superhuman durability don't make me think Cap has much of a chance in a straight fight.

This fight would be more or less even for the first three - five minutes, but after that Captain America will start to pull ahead at a rapid pace, as Matt begins to tire while Cap himself remains at peak. Daredevil will give Steve a fight but at no time will he have a legitimate shot at winning. Captain America taking 9/10 is generous to Daredevil.

Originally posted by Mister Supreme
He's fought with Captain America four different times. The first time DD was under the mind control of some radioactive isotope and it was a fight that took most of the issue and was a through and through bare knuckled brawl which ended in a stalemate. The next time they met, Cap was under mind control and DD fought him to a stalemate until he could figure a way to end said mind control. Then they met again when DareDevil singlehandedly INFILTRATED the Avengers mansion. In rapid succession DD defeated Beast and Hercules in the dark and then took out Captain America in two moves. The latest time they met however, both of them were far from prime condition and Captain America won after a prolonged brawl although DD landed far more hits and DD stated that he was holding back.


And they have "fought" five times, not four.

Daredevil 43: Daredevil is drugged, and Captain America is holding back and pleading with him to stop. They fight more or less evenly until the drugs wear off and DD flees.

Daredevil 155: A delirious Daredevil gets the drop on the Avengers in the dark, momentarily taking down Beast and Captain America, and stunning Herc.

Captain America 243: Captain America is drugged, DD is holding back. Fight was in Caps favour before he broke free from the mind control.

Captain America 375, Streets of Poison: Captain America is drugged, DD is off his game. DD dodges a bit before Captain America two shots him.

Daredevil and Captain America: Dead on Arrival: Daredevil is drugged and hallucinating, Cap is holding back. They fight for a few pages until Cap lets himself get tackled, then shoots up DD with the cure.

Holy ****ing novel!

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And they have "fought" five times, not four.

Daredevil 43: Daredevil is drugged, and Captain America is holding back and pleading with him to stop. They fight more or less evenly until the drugs wear off and DD flees.

Daredevil 155: A delirious Daredevil gets the drop on the Avengers in the dark, momentarily taking down Beast and Captain America, and stunning Herc.

Captain America 243: Captain America is drugged, DD is holding back. Fight was in Caps favour before he broke free from the mind control.

Captain America 375, Streets of Poison: Captain America is drugged, DD is off his game. DD dodges a bit before Captain America two shots him.

Daredevil and Captain America: Dead on Arrival: Daredevil is drugged and hallucinating, Cap is holding back. They fight for a few pages until Cap lets himself get tackled, then shoots up DD with the cure.

Big thanks for reminding me on that 5th fight (drugged by Death-Stalker).
Question: So how do you know from these fights Cap is going to beat DD 10/10?
Can anyone answer me that?

Originally posted by Mister Supreme
Big thanks for reminding me on that 5th fight (drugged by Death-Stalker).
Question: So how do you know from these fights Cap is going to beat DD 10/10?
Can anyone answer me that?

Could you answer my question, first? Because *I'm* not making such an arguement... I said quite clearly that Steve getting a 10/10 is simply absurd...

cap and dd get drugged a lot it seems

Originally posted by tideoftime
Uhm... did you quote me by mistake?
*I'm* the one only arguing a simple 6/10 in favor of Cap, which while not in agreement with your assessment, is only a moderate shift from it (6/10 for Cap as opposed to 6/10 for DD, which while I don't agree with, as such, I do still acknowledge as a viable arguement).

It was *Juk3n* who says Cap takes 10/10.

Maybe you accidentally skipped over him to me?

I really don't understand what you mean by this.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Daredevil has better reflexes then Cap and his reactions go way beyond anything Cap has shown.
Cap has him with Strength and possibly skill but Daredevil's propensity to go for nerve centers that can KO people with Superhuman durability don't make me think Cap has much of a chance in a straight fight.

Agreed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
This fight would be more or less even for the first three - five minutes, but after that Captain America will start to pull ahead at a rapid pace, as Matt begins to tire while Cap himself remains at peak. Daredevil will give Steve a fight but at no time will he have a legitimate shot at winning. Captain America taking 9/10 is generous to Daredevil.

Actualy Sasuona's post makes it clear and more sense than any other post.
"Daredevil has better reflexes then Cap and his reactions go way beyond anything Cap has shown.
Cap has him with Strength and possibly skill but Daredevil's propensity to go for nerve centers that can KO people with Superhuman durability don't make me think Cap has much of a chance in a straight fight."

KMC needed a hardcore DD fan

As much as I like Matt, I wouldn't say his reflexes are better than Cap. Steve has some insane bullet dodging/deflecting feats. And I mean actual dodging, not aim-dodging.

DD did deflect some with his billy club in his old school days, but I don't know if he has more showings like that.

Originally posted by Mister Supreme
I really don't understand what you mean by this.

You're citing *my* post, then saying "x" in response to it, but that really doesn't make much sense given that my views are only moderately different from your's; meanwhile, you have other posters (particularly Juk3n) who are *really* posting opposite to your take on things. If you go back and read what you cited from me, then your response, *but* then read the other people's, it's kind of weird that you'd quote me, rather than Juk3n, or someone else. Hence, why I questioned if you accidently quoted me, out of context/inadvertantly -- it's happened to me and others around here before...

Captain America 5.5/10

Originally posted by tideoftime
You're citing *my* post, then saying "x" in response to it, but that really doesn't make much sense given that my views are only moderately different from your's; meanwhile, you have other posters (particularly Juk3n) who are *really* posting opposite to your take on things. If you go back and read what you cited from me, then your response, *but* then read the other people's, it's kind of weird that you'd quote me, rather than Juk3n, or someone else. Hence, why I questioned if you accidently quoted me, out of context/inadvertantly -- it's happened to me and others around here before...

To be honest.
The most objective answer is that we can't know who would win until writers write their fair fight to the end.
There is no other option than this-everything else is the subject to fanboyism.
So it's 5/10 for each.

Cap 6/10

DD doesnt have better reflexes he is a better dodger because he has a radar sense and is more agile.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Daredevil has better reflexes then Cap and his reactions go way beyond anything Cap has shown.
Cap has him with Strength and possibly skill but Daredevil's propensity to go for nerve centers that can KO people with Superhuman durability don't make me think Cap has much of a chance in a straight fight. Bullshit

DD loses a healthy majority to Captain America.

Steve Rogers Skill + Superhuman attributes >>>>> Streetleveler with peak human stats.

The longer the fight goes the worse it gets for Matt

The cap fight you used to prove he can beat t'challa is from the ultimate universe...not canon, T'Challa beat Steve in Civil War (although cap was still recovering)

as for this fight, it's close, never understood why people thought steve stomped matt

Originally posted by Deadline
DD doesnt have better reflexes he is a better dodger because he has a radar sense and is more agile.

Most of the fights, DD holds back or is not 100%. While at the same time Cap was either 100% or not holding back, except that time DD was drugged at that cemetery.

Originally posted by Trackz
The cap fight you used to prove he can beat t'challa is from the ultimate universe...not canon, T'Challa beat Steve in Civil War (although cap was still recovering)

as for this fight, it's close, never understood why people thought steve stomped matt

Yes, you're right it's alternate universe 1610 where Cap beat T'Challa.
And yes you're right, I don't know why people think would stomp DD.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Holy ****ing novel!

Originally posted by Deadline
DD doesnt have better reflexes he is a better dodger because he has a radar sense and is more agile.

Daredevil lost his radar sense and trained to the point that he was able to fashion his own that operates on the same level.
His radar sense is something like a sixth sense but in the notion that its a sonar that allows him to see a picture of things around him better than normal eyes would. Something like that isn't helping him dodge bullets unless he has the reactions necessary to do it.

DD's reflexes and agility aren't from his radar sense and until Cap has feats of dodging sniper rifles, batting away bullets from sniper fire, or even predicting where lightning is going to strike I wouldn't say Cap's reflexes or agility compares.

Most of the time Cap legit aim dodges fire and recently he got some good bullet timing feats but that alone isn't making him as fast as Daredevil.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

cap wins vs regular dd, shadowland turns cap into his *****

Originally posted by Deadline
and is more agile. this can't be proven.

probably can.

Steve Rogers can most likely match any physical feat of any peak human in any physical catagory

Cap is as skilled as they come without moving into mystical, is stronger than Batman, faster than Cassie and more agile than Daredevil or Nightwing goddamnit! And in a fight with DD, a serious Cap operates at higher levels that DD can for longer than DD can. With no distractions, team mates to watch out for, red buttons to press to stop the bomb, arch nemesis to try and catch, none of this, he's not losing a straite h2h combat fight with DD.

Give him his shield and he Rolls DD everytime without much difficulty as long as he doesn't go for a toss.

dd has superhuman agility as a by-product of his predicament

Superhuman?

Originally posted by Juk3n
this can't be proven.

Daredevil has superhuman sense of balance which gives him equilibrium on par with Spider-Man.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
dd has superhuman agility as a by-product of his predicament

Beat me to it.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Superhuman? yes, superhuman, as in at a level beyond what a regular human could produce

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
yes, superhuman, as in at a level beyond what a regular human could produce

Good thing that doesn't apply to Steve Rogers then eh?

steve rogers is peak human by marvels own words

Cap should take this at least 7 times out of 10.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
steve rogers is peak human by marvels own words

If you want to go by "Marvel's own words", I don't recall Marvel ever saying DD has superhuman agility.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If you want to go by "Marvel's own words", I don't recall Marvel ever saying DD has superhuman agility.

Good point. Although it was stated in some handbook that he has enhanced agility.

enhanced = superhuman.

Definition of ENHANCE
transitive verb
1obsolete : raise
2: heighten, increase; especially : to increase or improve in value, quality, desirability, or attractiveness <enhanced the room with crown molding>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enhanced

Originally posted by Silent Master
Definition of ENHANCE
transitive verb
1obsolete : raise
2: heighten, increase; especially : to increase or improve in value, quality, desirability, or attractiveness <enhanced the room with crown molding>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enhanced but marvel puts enhanced slightly above peak i think

I can't find my handbooks right now, so I can't check where each rank.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Daredevil has better reflexes then Cap and his reactions go way beyond anything Cap has shown.
Cap has him with Strength and possibly skill but Daredevil's propensity to go for nerve centers that can KO people with Superhuman durability don't make me think Cap has much of a chance in a straight fight.


DD won't be able to land a nerve strike on cap. Nerve strikes are not like punches. You have to be very specific with these kinds of attacks. And someone with cap's reaction time and a defense like shield, would make it extremely hard for DD to land a pressure point.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
steve rogers is peak human by marvels own words

You're refering to a handbook, for a character who is so rich in contradictory superhuman feats, this was going to be a long ass rant, but i'll just save time. You can have one of these

facepalm

and a GTFO!

Originally posted by Juk3n
this can't be proven.

Well we seem him regularly doing Spiderman like agility feats that Cap doesn't usually do.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
steve rogers is peak human by marvels own words

Yes because bios >> feats.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
steve rogers is peak human by marvels own words

What is the operative word in "super soldier"?

Hint: It's the word in bold

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What is the operative word in "super soldier"?

Hint: It's the word in bold

To be fair that in itself doesn't neccesarily mean it gives you super stats but just extremly good ones.

I'd say it is a pretty safe bet that a super soldier, is super human, especially when he can run 60mph, has the strength of 20 men and lives in bullet time.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'd say it is a pretty safe bet that a super soldier, is super human, especially when he can run 60mph, has the strength of 20 men and lives in bullet time.

Not really that could be peak human, especially when you live in a world were humans can train themselves to have powers.

Originally posted by Deadline
Not really that could be peak human, especially when you live in a world were humans can train themselves to have powers.

Quasimystical abilities and chi amping are superhuman abilities as well. Running 60 mph is blatantly superhuman, hell running 30mph would be pushing superhuman as well. The human body couldn't take that much strain, the force generate from running 60 mph would have host of disastrous effects on your bones, joints and muscle fibers. You would need superhuman durability for speeds of 60mph to even be theoretically possible.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Quasimystical abilities and chi amping are superhuman abilities as well. Running 60 mph is blatantly superhuman, hell running 30mph would be pushing superhuman as well. The human body couldn't take that much strain, the force generate from running 60 mph would have host of disastrous effects on your bones, joints and muscle fibers. You would need superhuman durability for speeds of 60mph to even be theoretically possible.

It's not superhuman if humans can do it.

Originally posted by Deadline
It's not superhuman if humans can do it.


According to Stan Lee superhumans they can be humans. Just very rare ones.

Originally posted by Deadline
It's not superhuman if humans can do it.

If a character needs to channel mystical energies (ala Iron Fist, Elektra and Shang-Chi) accomplish something that they could not normally accomplish, it is superhuman.

Not that I disagree that Cap is beyong human.. most of comicbook peak humans do things that are beyond normal humans abilities.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If a character needs to channel mystical energies (ala Iron Fist, Elektra and Shang-Chi) accomplish something that they could not normally accomplish, it is superhuman.

What has normal got to do with it, the fact they can do it means its not superhuman. Most people can't bench press 1000lbs it's not superhuman because its been done.

If you go by the def superhuman = very few people can do it, fine then.

Originally posted by Deadline
What has normal got to do with it, the fact they can do it means its not superhuman. Most people can't bench press 1000lbs it's not superhuman because its been done.

If you go by the def superhuman = very few people can do it, fine then.

If you need out side assistance (ie drugs, or chi) to accomplish something that would be impossible otherwise then it is superhuman. If they are using chi then they are essentially using magic, and pretending feats accomplished by use of magic aren't superhuman is like saying that Ironman's feats of strength are applicable to humans.

a soldier would be above your average human.
so if we apply super soldier and compare it to Superhuman

the Soldier> trumps the human

Originally posted by Deadline
What has normal got to do with it, the fact they can do it means its not superhuman.

facepalm

dude..come on!

Ironfist brought down a hellicarrier , but because he's human, it's not a superhuman feat? IDUNTGETIT! Hes a human who is superhuman..whats so hard to grasp?

Originally posted by The Nuul
Yes because bios >> feats. you misunderstand. based on marvels definition of what constitutes a peak human in the MU, he fits the bill

Daredevil has resurrected himself from the dead before using his chi control this isn't superhuman this is just having a greater deal of control over the bodies already present abilities, through training any human would be capable of the same thing which is why its not superhuman.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
you misunderstand. based on marvels definition of what constitutes a peak human in the MU, he fits the bill

So does Daredevil, and it's marvels intention for there to be a clear and distinct gap between what Daredevil and Punisher are capable of..and what Steve Rogers is capable of, hence why we look at feats.

Originally posted by Mister Supreme
To be honest.
The most objective answer is that we can't know who would win until writers write their fair fight to the end.
There is no other option than this-everything else is the subject to fanboyism.
So it's 5/10 for each.

(there isn't a Picard Facepalm big enough...)

Okay...

Whatever...

Your "response", while perfectly debatable and a valid response, once again has *nothing* to do with what I asked/pointed out...

LOL...

Okay...

Gonna walk away now...

*whew*

Must be one of those weeks...

Originally posted by tideoftime
(there isn't a Picard Facepalm big enough...)

Okay...

Whatever...

Your "response", while perfectly debatable and a valid response, once again has *nothing* to do with what I asked/pointed out...

LOL...

Okay...

Gonna walk away now...

*whew*

Must be one of those weeks...

Seems like a spambot to me or something.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If you need out side assistance (ie drugs, or chi) to accomplish something that would be impossible otherwise then it is superhuman. If they are using chi then they are essentially using magic, and pretending feats accomplished by use of magic aren't superhuman is like saying that Ironman's feats of strength are applicable to humans.

It's not outside assistance. I think in comics and the real world chi is supposed to be everywhere and everyone has chi.

Also the Iron Man and drugs examples are different. With chi you train yourself to get access to the powers you don't train and get an exoskeleton and a drug, the source of these things isn't training. I mean if gained superhuman strength by doing lots of push ups you wouldn't really call the ground outside assistance because you are doing it via natural means. In comics you can gain chi and mystical abilities just by meditation which is natural and not artifical like drugs and an exoskeleton. Technically using your logic a dumbell is an outside source.

Even if it was an outside source it's not relevant whats important is wether humans can do it naturally.

cap will be peeing blood for a week, but i just dont see him losing

Originally posted by Juk3n
Common error, just because DD uses his agility more in his style of fighting, doesn't mean he's more agile than Cap. Cap is just as or more agile.

Cap wins 10/10, each fight being quite tough.


to the op
a 4 post opening is not warranted, both these characters have a respect thread, and no one will read 4 full posts of fluff, especially when you're dealing with 2 of the most popular martial artists in marvel earth.

This... or something similar to this...

I don't see Cap losing more than 3 tops.

Hmmm.... Cap baseline can generally run faster than possible for the average human, take a couple dozen bullets to the chest and still beat someone to death lift a car and take straight shots from tanks via his shield which should still send him flying in a broken bloody and mangled heap.

DD- Pretty good feats but I don't see him pounding on Hulks face and taking shots.

Originally posted by Uriel005
(...) and take straight shots from tanks via his shield which should still send him flying in a broken bloody and mangled heap.

No, it shouldn't because it has vibranium that absorbs the kinetic energy.

Captain America has has fought the same opponents and had the same results.Where are you getting that Cap has far superior showings? I could agree with you saying Captain America is the better fighter because Marvel has been pushing that for years, that Captain America is supposed to be a top level martial artist on Earth..but when you say silly things like DD isn't getting through his shield and Cap has far better showings against other fighters it makes me wonder what you're actually reading.The only characters Captain America has defeated on a higher scale than Daredevil are superhumans and that has nothing to do with fighting skill only Cap's physical ability which is barely above Daredevil's. Lastly (and this is most important) alot of writers favor Captain America so alot of these wins vs. superhumans have been forced and written carelessly.Spider-Man couldn't beat Rhino with a jumpkick..so how could Captain America? See what I mean?

Cap beat the Hulk with Spider-Man's help..and it's PIS on top of that.
Those extremely hard blows that Cap has used to cut through metal and hurt metahumans are attacks that Cap won't be able to pull off.Daredevil has already proven that throwing a shield at him as a bad idea and the amount of force he would have to swing to duplicate attacks like that...he would have to swing his hardest which will give Daredevil more time to dodge then it would if he is just dodging punches.Daredevil can fight dirty if he wants to.The last person he fought with morals off will never walk again.

Cap has not only never "effortlessly" taken down Daredevil he's never beaten him in a fair fight either.
To be perfectly honest I think at this point that Captain America and Daredevil may be on the same level of combat skill.Cap has never proven to be better than DD in their fights but he's also never done it away from their fights either.They've fought the same people with virtually the same result accept DD actually beat Taskmaster,Cap hasn't and Cap has had more encounters with him.I think that may be due to the fact that Taskmaster is more of an Avengers related villain.Cap's only advantage is physical ability-SLIGHTLY.
Cap has never proven to be more skillful than DD in their fights, and he would easily dodge Cap's shield, and waiting opening for nerve strikes.

I respect both these guys for everything they achieved, and although my fanboyism would vote for Cap more than DD (at least in this moment), when you have their fights which were never clean fights (getting drugged, holding back, being delirious or not being concentrated on the fight and etc...) and against the same opponents, the most objective and the most fair view I can really say is 5/10, not to mention these 2 are not willing to stop holding back since they are allies and/or friends. That's all.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No, it shouldn't because it has vibranium that absorbs the kinetic energy. there were times when he had to make do with other shields without vibranium and he's still tanked shots from bricks... i.e. true adamantium shield. The more standard shaped kite shields that he has used as well as a few others when Tony Stark was analyzing his WWII round shield...

Originally posted by Uriel005
there were times when he had to make do with other shields without vibranium and he's still tanked shots from bricks... i.e. true adamantium shield. The more standard shaped kite shields that he has used as well as a few others when Tony Stark was analyzing his WWII round shield...

I don't recall him using true adamantium shield. Maybe you're talking about the ultimate version?