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Who wins?

Stay far away....

Ryu died horribly...

He did? When?

Kratos ripped his head off.

That was Helios.

Kratos uses him to hold a door open.

So he can run away?

Kratos by virtue of not being a hypothetical character of a canon ambiguity.

Evil Ryu isn't completely non canon, he has shown up once, so it is hard to gauge him. But many characters on here have limited or non canon showings.

At least he doesn't rely on numerous plot devices.

He IS a plot device in and of himself

Kratos? Yea I agree.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Kratos? Yea I agree. Kratos has appeared in all of his games in cutscenes and such. Evil Ryu only appeared once. and was nearly never mention again(from what I recall)

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Evil Ryu isn't completely non canon, he has shown up once, so it is hard to gauge him. But many characters on here have limited or non canon showings.

At least he doesn't rely on numerous plot devices.

Not like Evil Ryu, whose best feat...nay, only feat, is a cheapshot.

Stop lying to yourself. You know Ryu lives on plot devices. That's the only way he beats people like Sagat & Bison.

Ryu doesn't live on plot devices. He beat Bison with help. I was being facetious though if it wasn't clear (to some extent). He has plenty of showings with his own merit. Sagat definitely isn't out of his league. Bison isn't around in SF3, so it is possible he surpassed him at that point, because he surpassed his older self (when evil), he's probably past Alpha Akuma in around the time of SF3, but that's just a rough guess.

But Kratos uses plot devices to win his serious matches, lots of help and plot devices. Which is fine since it a story first and foremost. But his items he uses are hard to gauge. Kratos arguments are a pain in some places because of the "He kills Gods!!!" argument.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Ryu doesn't live on plot devices. He beat Bison with help. I was being facetious though if it wasn't clear (to some extent). He has plenty of showings with his own merit. Sagat definitely isn't out of his league. Bison isn't around in SF3, so it is possible he surpassed him at that point, because he surpassed his older self (when evil), he's probably past Alpha Akuma in around the time of SF3, but that's just a rough guess.

But Kratos uses plot devices to win his serious matches, lots of help and plot devices. Which is fine since it a story first and foremost. But his items he uses are hard to gauge. Kratos arguments are a pain in some places because of the "He kills Gods!!!" argument.

I was being facetious as well dude.

How strong he is in SF3 has no merit over his showings against them when he fought them. Sagat was beaten via a cheap shot and it was later retconned into a plot device power, but it still remained a cheap shot. Then there's Bison, who got smacked away by Ryu and retreated. Granted, Ryu needed help to overcome Bison's brainwashing, but he still pwned Bison by himself iirc. I don't remember how Ryu beat a Seth, but I believe it was with a Metsu Hadouken.
Ryu has his fair share of good showings, but he needed plot devices against people like Sagat and Bison. It's not obvious, but he, like any protagonist, has PIS on his side.

Against dudes like Ares and Zeus, yeah, he needed a plot device. Then there's his fight against Poseidon & Thanatos, where Kratos needed Gaia's & Deimos' aid respectively. Other than that, I don't think there is another fight where Kratos needed outside aid or a plot device.

Yeah, using 'he kills gods' as the basis of an argument is a pain. Kratos killed a goddess by snapping her neck. She has no feats, other than the fact that her death caused all flora to rot and die.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I was being facetious as well dude.

How strong he is in SF3 has no merit over his showings against them when he fought them. Sagat was beaten via a cheap shot and it was later retconned into a plot device power, but it still remained a cheap shot. Then there's Bison, who got smacked away by Ryu and retreated. Granted, Ryu needed help to overcome Bison's brainwashing, but he still pwned Bison by himself iirc. I don't remember how Ryu beat a Seth, but I believe it was with a Metsu Hadouken.
Ryu has his fair share of good showings, but he needed plot devices against people like Sagat and Bison. It's not obvious, but he, like any protagonist, has PIS on his side.

Against dudes like Ares and Zeus, yeah, he needed a plot device. Then there's his fight against Poseidon & Thanatos, where Kratos needed Gaia's & Deimos' aid respectively. Other than that, I don't think there is another fight where Kratos needed outside aid or a plot device.

Yeah, using 'he kills gods' as the basis of an argument is a pain. Kratos killed a goddess by snapping her neck. She has no feats, other than the fact that her death caused all flora to rot and die. Couldn't tell. Online and all.

All characters have a plot, but when a character uses a plot device through unqantifiable means it becomes a pain to debate. He did hit Sagat when he was overwhelmed by Satsui no hado, Sagat was never out of his league. Bison is out of his league though (at the time, can't say now). Since generally people consider Evil Ryu as an amp, I'm wondering if he meant that.

Obviously someone using a friend to beat Bison is a clear cut case of help, he didn't use the "OMG Dragon necklace", which would be a bit different in regards to what I was talking about.

Yea, it's hard to argue that way against Kratos, reminds me of MK.

On a serious note though I'd say it looks like Kratos is a tier higher than classic Ryu. Shame they have so few feats to gauge. On Ryu's highest showings he'd have a better chance, don't see it here though.

Much more than a tier. He's the damn hulk compared to ryu with many powerful magical hax.

darn doubles

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Kratos? Yea I agree.

No. When you have a character whose entire existence is based upon a single plot point that's taken to entire hypothetical levels in the games, then you know all you have is a plot device given form and substance. Case in point, the entire concept of the Satsui no Hadou.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You know Ryu lives on plot devices. That's the only way he beats people like Sagat & Bison.

This...is very foolish.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
but he still pwned Bison by himself iirc.

That isn't true...

Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
No. When you have a character whose entire existence is based upon a single plot point that's taken to entire hypothetical levels in the games, then you know all you have is a plot device given form and substance. Case in point, the entire concept of the Satsui no Hadou. '

Well, exept that there's another character that utilises the Satsui No Hadou all the time...

Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Much more than a tier. He's the damn hulk compared to ryu with many powerful magical hax. Well what are you allowing each character?Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
No. When you have a character whose entire existence is based upon a single plot point that's taken to entire hypothetical levels in the games, then you know all you have is a plot device given form and substance. Case in point, the entire concept of the Satsui no Hadou. Not really. Something like Magic or a GL ring would be a walking plot device because it does whatever the writer wants it to. Satsui no Hado hasn't done much of anything for Ryu actually.

Originally posted by No End N Site
This...is very foolish. Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I was being facetious as well dude.



Originally posted by No End N Site
That isn't true...

K. What happened then?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Couldn't tell. Online and all.

All characters have a plot, but when a character uses a plot device through unqantifiable means it becomes a pain to debate. He did hit Sagat when he was overwhelmed by Satsui no hado, Sagat was never out of his league. Bison is out of his league though (at the time, can't say now). Since generally people consider Evil Ryu as an amp, I'm wondering if he meant that.

Obviously someone using a friend to beat Bison is a clear cut case of help, he didn't use the "OMG Dragon necklace", which would be a bit different in regards to what I was talking about.

Yea, it's hard to argue that way against Kratos, reminds me of MK.

On a serious note though I'd say it looks like Kratos is a tier higher than classic Ryu. Shame they have so few feats to gauge. On Ryu's highest showings he'd have a better chance, don't see it here though.

I should have used a smilie then mmm

Sagat was out of his league at the time. iirc, he crushed Ryu, and thought he won, which led to the Metsu Shoryuken.
Meh, as far as I know, he temp destroyed Bison with a Shoryuken right?

H2H concerned, Ryu is nowhere near as impressive as Gouki though. In terms of punching feats, Gouki's blow Kratos' out of the water, but Kratos' brute strength feats are impressive.
Stuff like Ryu's Hadoukens are the only advantage he has against Kratos in a H2H fight IMO, but I don't know how powerful his hadoukens are. So I think it's far more than just a tier.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix


K. What happened then?


Bison was juimped by Ken, Sakura, Sagat, and possibly over a dozen other characters before he was hit by Ryu, a Ryu he juiced up by shootin'im with Psycho Energy. He wasn't just soloed by Ryu.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix




K. What happened then?



I should have used a smilie then mmm

Sagat was out of his league at the time. iirc, he crushed Ryu, and thought he won, which led to the Metsu Shoryuken.
Meh, as far as I know, he temp destroyed Bison with a Shoryuken right?

H2H concerned, Ryu is nowhere near as impressive as Gouki though. In terms of punching feats, Gouki's blow Kratos' out of the water, but Kratos' brute strength feats are impressive.
Stuff like Ryu's Hadoukens are the only advantage he has against Kratos in a H2H fight IMO, but I don't know how powerful his hadoukens are. So I think it's far more than just a tier. Gouki doesn't have any lifting feats though.

The only thing we have is Ryu stalemating him in Alpha 2, but you're right, he isn't quite on Akuma's level.

I'd say Ryu is high meta on his good showings, I'd put Kratos at low herald, which is a tier above.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Gouki doesn't have any lifting feats though.

The only thing we have is Ryu stalemating him in Alpha 2, but you're right, he isn't quite on Akuma's level.

I'd say Ryu is high meta on his good showings, I'd put Kratos at low herald, which is a tier above.

A Gouki who was just testing Ryu out. What's more impressive IMO, is the fact that Ryu survived the encounter. Current Ryu would obviously do better, but I seriously doubt he comes close to even Alpha Gouki. Personally, I think Ryu is near the top of SF, but there's a huge difference between him and the top dogs, like Oro and Gouki.

You kidding brah? Kratos with PIS on his side can beat Elder God level characters. 313
Srsly though, Kratos with all his equipment and abilities, including the BoO & Fate Manipulation, might break into Mid-herald depending on who else is in that tier; but yeah, Low herald seems about right, considering dudes like Thor and Superman are in High Herald according to KMC's tiering system.

Who else is in High Meta?

Hmm... mid meta is like Venom. High meta is roughly Iron Man level. Ryu at is best (average) is around that IMO. Ki manip, superhuman stats, and top level fighting skill.

With weapons Kratos... might be at that level, which is why I asked what he had. Then again they put Flash at mid herald which is bs since the Flash is pure haxx.

I agree with the Gap between he and the greats, even though he is seen to be the most powerful... eventually. You don't think he'd be around Alpha Gouki level at SF3? He doesn't have the collateral damage feats, but I didn't see it as a long shot.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
A Gouki who was just testing Ryu out. What's more impressive IMO, is the fact that Ryu survived the encounter. Current Ryu would obviously do better, but I seriously doubt he comes close to even Alpha Gouki. Personally, I think Ryu is near the top of SF, but there's a huge difference between him and the top dogs, like Oro and Gouki.

You kidding brah? Kratos with PIS on his side can beat Elder God level characters. 313
Srsly though, Kratos with all his equipment and abilities, including the BoO & Fate Manipulation, might break into Mid-herald depending on who else is in that tier; but yeah, Low herald seems about right, considering dudes like Thor and Superman are in High Herald according to KMC's tiering system.

Who else is in High Meta?

So who's the strongest comic book character standard Kratos (non BoO or magic) can defeat? Could he beat Marvel Ares?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Hmm... mid meta is like Venom. High meta is roughly Iron Man level. Ryu at is best (average) is around that IMO. Ki manip, superhuman stats, and top level fighting skill.

With weapons Kratos... might be at that level, which is why I asked what he had. Then again they put Flash at mid herald which is bs since the Flash is pure haxx.

I agree with the Gap between he and the greats, even though he is seen to be the most powerful... eventually. You don't think he'd be around Alpha Gouki level at SF3? He doesn't have the collateral damage feats, but I didn't see it as a long shot.

Ki manip is what I think would bring him to that level. His physical stats are like at or below Spidey's level no?

I think Flash with CIS on is the reason they put him in Mid-Herald. Flash going all out KMC style, is pure haxx.

Yeah, he's the main protagonist, so he'll eventually surpass Oro and Gouki, if the games get to that point.

Mostly because I think the main difference between Alpha Gouki and SF3 Gouki, are a couple of techs that the latter Gouki has mastered, and perhaps a slight increase in stats.
Alpha Gouki still has SGS and his other SnH techs. SF3 Ryu has no defense against the SGS afaik. Plus, even if SF3 Ryu is 'above' (Alpha) Evil Ryu, he was just a Ryu who had succumbed to the SnH, as opposed to Gouki, who had mastered the SnH to the point where he could stop tapping into it. Thus, Alpha Gouki has the option to 'go Shin', which would definitely put him above SF3 Ryu IMO.
Meh, maybe No End will weigh in on this. He knows far more than I do.

Hmm, was Gouki using the SnH in his fight with Gen? Also, just how powerful is Gen? Above or below Ryu?

Ryu isn't near the top of SF. He can't even beat SFII Bison.

And SFA Akuma is 'way' weaker than SFIII Akuma. Oro didn't even hear about Akuma til' III and Gen could still kick his ass if he hadn't got cancer. Hell, he had just beat Gouken and only beat Gouken cuz Gouken refused to fight to kill.

Alpha Akuma woulda got his ass thrashed by a 1 handed Oro.

Average Tier
Dan and Sean

Street Fighter Tier
Almost everyone else not mentioned above or bellow. While these characters could beat one another, they wouldn't be that far apart to be on different tiers.


Sub-Boss Tier
Ryu, Sagat, Vega, Balrog, Charlie, Juri, Seth (possibly) and Urien.


Boss Tier
Rose, Gen, and Seth (possibly)


Final Boss Tier
Akuma, Gouken, Oro, and Gill


God Tier
Ingrid

-edit-

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Ki manip is what I think would bring him to that level. His physical stats are like at or below Spidey's level no?

I think Flash with CIS on is the reason they put him in Mid-Herald. Flash going all out KMC style, is pure haxx.

Yeah, he's the main protagonist, so he'll eventually surpass Oro and Gouki, if the games get to that point.

Mostly because I think the main difference between Alpha Gouki and SF3 Gouki, are a couple of techs that the latter Gouki has mastered, and perhaps a slight increase in stats.
Alpha Gouki still has SGS and his other SnH techs. SF3 Ryu has no defense against the SGS afaik. Plus, even if SF3 Ryu is 'above' (Alpha) Evil Ryu, he was just a Ryu who had succumbed to the SnH, as opposed to Gouki, who had mastered the SnH to the point where he could stop tapping into it. Thus, Alpha Gouki has the option to 'go Shin', which would definitely put him above SF3 Ryu IMO.
Meh, maybe No End will weigh in on this. He knows far more than I do.

Hmm, was Gouki using the SnH in his fight with Gen? Also, just how powerful is Gen? Above or below Ryu? He did hold that huge boulder up and run with it, but ki manip wouldn't be an issue.

Even then Flash fighting normally would still be top, they've made that clear in the comics. It's his PIS that's the issue, which doesn't count here. They write him down for obvious reasons in the comics. The Flash can do damn near what he wants and would win against Superman and just about any other high herald.

But yea, it was just my opinion that current Ryu would beat Alpha Akuma, could be wrong though.

No End, you think he can't beat Classic Bison at his current state?

Originally posted by No End N Site

Average Tier
Dan and Sean

Street Fighter Tier
Almost everyone else not mentioned above or bellow. While these characters could beat one another, they wouldn't be that far apart to be on different tiers.


Sub-Boss Tier
Ryu, Sagat, Vega, Balrog, Charlie, Juri, Seth (possibly) and Urien.


Boss Tier
Rose, Gen, and Seth (possibly)


Final Boss Tier
Akuma, Gouken, Oro, and Gill


God Tier
Ingrid

1)While I agree 4 the most part, I think Rose is N Btween Boss & Final Boss. Look @ who she's grouped with, she'd school those guys.

2)Chunny has crazy chi manip, I think she could B on Ryu's tier.

3) Y is Seth "(possibly)" above Ryu, win Ryu beat him?

Because he let Ryu win for fun.

Man, Ryu blasted dude's ass to kingdom come at the end.
Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
1)While I agree 4 the most part, I think Rose is N Btween Boss & Final Boss. Look @ who she's grouped with, she'd school those guys.

2)Chunny has crazy chi manip, I think she could B on Ryu's tier.

3) Y is Seth "(possibly)" above Ryu, win Ryu beat him?

You might be right...

Thing about that is, she has some nice showings but she hasn't really used'em to beat anyone. For all we know, the other SFs could be just as capable but just lack the showings.

Ryu 'barely' beat a pre-BLEECE Seth. Now Seth has got stolen moves, his Tanden Engine is in full swing, and he's got 25 other versions of him, makin' A>B>C logic very hard. Everyone who is shown beatin' Seth, could just be thrashin' lesser copies.

That's what I wonder. Which endings are canon? You know how the myriad thing works.

I was told that all the endings could be canon. Since there are 25 Seths, those shown beatin' Seth, could have beaten a copy. You can clearly see that Capcom really hates killin' off any of the SF bosses, so it's logical.

Bison was gone SF3, he was the best evil boss.

Yup. Not havin' Bison in SFIII, or even mentioned by name was pretty damn weak.

He was just too awesome for the game it seems. *shrugs*

Bison's too awesome for any game.

Yea, Duke, Battletoads, Bison, and a few others are just too damn cool.

Kratos, as i don't know who Ryu is.

Originally posted by Kosmic King
Kratos, as i don't know who Ryu is.








facepalm

I definitely believe that.

Originally posted by Kosmic King
Kratos, as i don't know who Ryu is. Dude what?

Seriously?

Originally posted by No End N Site
Ryu isn't near the top of SF. He can't even beat SFII Bison.

And SFA Akuma is 'way' weaker than SFIII Akuma. Oro didn't even hear about Akuma til' III and Gen could still kick his ass if he hadn't got cancer. Hell, he had just beat Gouken and only beat Gouken cuz Gouken refused to fight to kill.

Alpha Akuma woulda got his ass thrashed by a 1 handed Oro.

Average Tier
Dan and Sean

Street Fighter Tier
Almost everyone else not mentioned above or bellow. While these characters could beat one another, they wouldn't be that far apart to be on different tiers.


Sub-Boss Tier
Ryu, Sagat, Vega, Balrog, Charlie, Juri, Seth (possibly) and Urien.


Boss Tier
Rose, Gen, and Seth (possibly)


Final Boss Tier
Akuma, Gouken, Oro, and Gill


God Tier
Ingrid You're missing the final tier, the one above God-Tier.

Mother Russia Tier
Zangief

estahuh

On a serious note, you didn't put Bison on the list. SFA Bison would be like Final Boss tier, SFII Bison Boss, no?

Also did not know Vega and Balrog were that strong.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yea, Duke, Battletoads, Bison, and a few others are just too damn cool.

How could you not mention The Dark Queen?!

When I was lil', 50% of the reason why I played that damn game, was just to see her.Originally posted by NemeBro
Dude what?

Seriously?

You're missing the final tier, the one above God-Tier.

Mother Russia Tier
Zangief

estahuh

On a serious note, you didn't put Bison on the list. SFA Bison would be like Final Boss tier, SFII Bison Boss, no?

Also did not know Vega and Balrog were that strong.

"I really hate Zangief".

I did forget Bison, Shin Bison would be on Final Boss Tier, Reg Bison would be on Boss tier.

Vega and Balrog are kings of Shadaloo. They are pwerful enough for Bison to notice'em and in canon, they have never really been defeated by anyone.

Originally posted by No End N Site
"I really hate Zangief".

I did forget Bison, Shin Bison would be on Final Boss Tier, Reg Bison would be on Boss tier.

Vega and Balrog are kings of Shadaloo. They are pwerful enough for Bison to notice'em and in canon, they have never really been defeated by anyone. Is there somethin' about him, that you don't even like?

Maybe somethin' about him that makes you wanna fight?

Thought so, yeah.

I see.

How about Dhalsim? I cannot recall anything about him in canon, but have finally gotten ahold of the SF Udon comics, they seem to think highly of him. That have backing in canon?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Is there somethin' about him, that you don't even like?

Maybe somethin' about him that makes you wanna fight?

Thought so, yeah.

I see.

How about Dhalsim? I cannot recall anything about him in canon, but have finally gotten ahold of the SF Udon comics, they seem to think highly of him. That have backing in canon?

I don't like how I can't use my jab, cuz dude is so use to grabin'.

And I believe Sim's very powerful, indeed. However, in canon, there is no proof of it...that I can remember. Might be tho, would have to get back to you on that.

The Dark Queen, fanservice incarnate... I didn't know you played the game yourself.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I don't like how I can't use my jab, cuz dude is so use to grabin'.

And I believe Sim's very powerful, indeed. However, in canon, there is no proof of it...that I can remember. Might be tho, would have to get back to you on that. In Udon, he kinda beat both Ryu and Sagat pretty handily, was what made me wonder.

Regardless, dude is hardcore.

"I will meditate and then destroy you."

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
The Dark Queen, fanservice incarnate... I didn't know you played the game yourself.

Yeah dude, I will admit that my memory is hella fuzzy, but I remember the Dark Queen. Oh yes.

Bison says, Dark Queen is DELICIOUS!!!

She's already been taken.... by me...

I'll have to do an avvy and sig of her down the road.

Meh, Sakura's gonna eventually surpass them all.

I'd love to see that.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Vega and Balrog are kings of Shadaloo. They are pwerful enough for Bison to notice'em and in canon, they have never really been defeated by anyone.

Didn't Chun Li beat Vega in the SF2 movie (albeit barely, and she ended up in a coma from the blood-loss or something)?

He meant in canon, but they can be beaten.