Originally posted by Q99
Against Oceanus Shenron, who was able to go against Kid Goku (base form) head on pretty well, her kamehameha was what won the fight, causing major pain and making Oceanus revert to her true form allowing Goku to finish the job.
Let's go with a huge PIS moment on Goku's part.
We go from a Goku whose powerup and clash with Frieza was causing a virtual blackhole maelstrom that absorbed and annihilated the land all around them. That is >>>>>>>>> than anything oceanus pulled off. General Tao would have been more than enough for Oceanus, much less a PIS GT Goku and a relatively weak Pan.
All one has to do is point to the fact that Goku was struggling to prevent a falling building from falling over and indicate how much Goku was struggling....while in SSJ4. That would make him weaker than General Tao....by far. That's PIS, to the max.
Originally posted by Q99
Or for 'effective,' how about able to hold Dr. Gero in his android body? We know that body is far stronger than Yamcha, who was easily into the 10ks when he fought Gero.
Gero was back in Human form. Remember, Android 20 was destroyed. He was resurrected back into a human form and sent to hell, like all of the other hell people.
Evidence? Frieza is "complete" after he is obliterated, back in his biological form.
However, that does not excuse how much of a horrendous piece of shit GT is when it comes to plot continuity: it's retardedly full of PIS which includes showing characters that only appeared in movies, coming from hell.
Originally posted by Q99
Ok, there's a lot of room between 1,000 and 1,000,000. What's your point?
I thought it was obvious: if you're suggesting that she is on a level as high as you are implying, she'd have to be somewhere close to super saiyan WITHOUT transforming. Remember, you said that characters that are much stronger than others do the typical "stand there and do nothing" while the other far weaker character goes to town and "nothing happens." It was also a comment related to my previous one where I had mentioned the external forum Pan fanboys wanking over absurd power-levels for Pan.
Originally posted by Q99
And Goten and Trunks. Three examples, and those two got more power younger than Gohan did.
Incorrect.
Follow the posts to see where you went wrong:
Originally posted by Q99
And, in general, half-saiyans tend to start out with a lot of power, so it makes sense.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect.
That only example we have is of Gohan but he is the "most" special of all the characters in that he had the most hidden potential.
Goten fought evenly with Chi-Chi who is by-far, not a remarkable fighter compared to the Z-Warriors. Goten overpowered his mother, easily, once he went super-saiyan, but the fact that he wasn't punching through or or launching her many miles with single punches, should more than prove that the Chibi versions of super-saiyans are no where near Goku's initial SSJ transformation.
To which you replied:
Originally posted by Q99
And Goten and Trunks. Three examples, and those two got more power younger than Gohan did.
So we are back to square-one: you last comment is not only incorrect, it is out of context of the conversation. You deleted the rest of my point which more than proved my point.
Gohan having a power-level that shoots, wildly, up and down, as a toddler should be more than enough proof that he had an absurd amount of potential. He was 4 when his power level shot up to 1370, "AND IT'S STILL CLIMBING!"
That power level was much higher than anything seen in Dragonball.
So why did I take us on that journey? Because you think that Gohan, Goten, and Pan are even remotely close to Gohan in his hidden power: not the case. Like I said here:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Goten fought evenly with Chi-Chi who is by-far, not a remarkable fighter compared to the Z-Warriors. Goten overpowered his mother, easily, once he went super-saiyan, but the fact that he wasn't punching through or or launching her many miles with single punches, should more than prove that the Chibi versions of super-saiyans are no where near Goku's initial SSJ transformation.
On top of that, Goten was NOT fighting evenly with his mother: his mom was kicking his ass, which is what sent him over-the-top.
I still think the SSJ transformation provides a 50 fold power increase, minimum, so that explains why his SSJ form, while quite powerful, is not anywhere near his Father's initial first SSJ transformation. That also explains why Chi-Chi wasn't flying miles by his punches (or getting punched clean through by Goten.) Goten, obviously, gets stronger, base form, since his fight with his mother...as does Trunks.
In conclusion, only Gohan had immense hidden powers: Goten and Trunks are the exact opposite: their potentials are seen from 7 or 8 years old. When Gohan was 11, he went SSJ2: something that neither Goten nor Trunks can claim to have done. As Gotenks, they went SSJ3, but fusion realizes a significant exponential jump in power. But neither of them are ever shown going SSJ2, on their own.
Originally posted by Q99
As a general rule of thumb it is the case though.
I agree, for the most part, but it isn't always the case. Obvciously, Pan's was an exception because he stated that he was going to ignore her.
Originally posted by Q99
No, but she rarely runs into someone her own level- she does show very high speed occasion (like when she saved a kid from a deflected Kamehameha during the Oceanus Shenron fight), and was much too fast for Haze Shenron to do squat about, for example.
I do not see that as speed being higher than anything required of by 22nd "Tenkaichi Budokai" levels. Yes, sub 200 power level speed.
Originally posted by Q99
No. You're providing examples on why she's not in the millions. This does not make her down near 1k, which is what you're claiming.
No, that's EXACTLY what that means. I'm providing examples that proves that she's barely in the 1000s. (I estimate that she's at most less than 5000.) It makes her down near 1000, which is what I'm claiming. You're obviously claiming near-super saiyan level (or more), which is ludicrous.
Originally posted by Q99
Proving one thing does not prove another, and there's a huge gap between millions and your sub-10k claim that you're excluding. It's a strawman to attack high-end claims and say that proves very low-end ones.
Several things wrong with this:
1. It certainly does prove the other especially when they are so very complementary.
2. There's I reason I'm excluding that gap: she hasn't shown anything that even remotely suggests that we should consider that huge gap.
3. It's not a strawman to show you why the high-end feats are not indicative of a power-level in the millions. However, it is a strawman to mislabel me correcting your gross overestimation of Pan's abilities as "attacking." It's a futile angle to try and change the argument to defending why I was attacking Pan's feats when I was doing no such things: I was deconstructing your misinterpretation of those feats.
4. The feats do not prove very low-end ones: it shows a very linear power level that makes what you are incorrectly stating as "high-end feats" they are all about the same level: sub 5000 but MAYBE over 1000.
Originally posted by Q99
I didn't say it was. It's not what she has, though.
Follow along:
You said:
Originally posted by Q99
Conversely, what makes you think that she's weak?
To which I replied:
Originally posted by dadudemon
A power-level of less than 5000 is NOT weak.
To which you have replied:
Originally posted by Q99
I didn't say it was. It's not what she has, though.
Which makes your comment definitely wrong.
I've stated she's less than 5000.
You then paint that opinion as me calling her weak.
I then tell you that 5000 is NOT weak.
Now you claim to have never stated that 5000 is weak when you directly implied that the post prior.
Originally posted by Q99
Your tone is definitely hostile and a half.
Incorrect.
You've posted on these boards more than long enough to know that my tone is not even remotely hostile. If you take these conversations out of context and imagine angry fingers slamming on a keyboard as posts are typed, you should probably log-out and take a break: you're taking this shit waaaaay too seriously.
If anything, your comments have been hostile such as mislabeling what I'm doing as "attacking Pan's feats" and trying to dodge two points. Those are not becoming of friendly posts about DBZ. Kento and I have argued pages without hostile attitudes: there's no reason to try and mislabel because you're upset at me. I can argue like crazy, but I DO NOT think you're stupid and I DO NOT think you're stupid for wanting Pan to be so strong.
Originally posted by Q99
Her highest feats are far in excess of 5k.
If the stuff you mentioned is what you think are "high-end feats" then, no, you can barely make a case for 1000.
Originally posted by Q99
The Dr. Gero feat's probably the most clear, but her fights against Oceanus and Haze Shenron and General Rilldo also put her as much higher.
As I've clearly shown, that comment is wrong in every way.
...So therefore I cleansed my mind by picturing Pan meeting Bardock all "So you're my Great Grandpa ^_^?!" and Bardock smiles and gently pokes her on the forehead all "
...You're already dead 
.." and Pan explodes into a grotesque mess 