Lloyd Irving vs Link

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TacDavey
Lloyd Irving from Tales of Symphonia:

http://tales.neoseeker.com/w/i/tales/6/6a/Lloyd.jpg

verses Link from Ocarina of Time:

http://www.pixfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/link.jpg

Link's weapons and magic verses Lloyd's special ex-sphere. Oh, and Lloyd can't just pull out the Eternal Sword and destroy him.

Who wins? And... go.

linkownsyousobs
Never played Tales of Symphonia, so until I find out more about him, Imma go with Link.

Ridley_Prime
OH MAH GOD NOSTALGIA ATTACK

I totally forgot a lot of Lloyd's attacks at this point (besides demon fang and such), but I can still see him holding his own here. Dunno who would win though.

LLLLLink
Link, stomp.
I loved Tales of Symphonia.

TacDavey
Gah, reasons people. I need reasons why a certain character would win.

LLLLLink
Regal was really cool.

GrieverSquall
Lloyd looks cooler, therefore he wins.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Lloyd looks cooler, therefore he wins. Nah, suspenders overa jacket < ridiculously awesome hat.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Nah, suspenders over a jacket > ridiculous hat.

Fix'd. thumb up

MooCowofJustice
I suppose you think Squall looks cool too, right? Leather jacket with a weird white fur collar.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Fix'd. thumb up Negatory, nothing is more stylish than a ridiculously awesome green cap. Nintendo comes up with excuses for the various tunics and armours to share this design feature. uhuh

Nephthys
What about the earring? Is that cool too.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
What about the earring? Is that cool too. Yes. So cool even wolves started wearing them later in the series. raver

Nephthys
That is so phat.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I suppose you think Squall looks cool too, right? Leather jacket with a weird white fur collar.

Sir. Griever necklace = Epic Win.
Trust me. Even Tomba would look cool by wearing it.

Originally posted by Screampaste
Negatory, nothing is more stylish than a ridiculously awesome green cap. Nintendo comes up with excuses for the various tunics and armours to share this design feature.

Suspenders are sexy, elf caps are not. http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/arya_argetlam/Emoticons/Cat-CatWearingGlasses.jpg

Nephthys
In what crazy Nolan-inspired dream-reality does Squall not look completely ****ing awesome. I mean, come on.

MooCowofJustice
Squall looks like a douche. And Tomba is badass.

linkownsyousobs
Originally posted by Nephthys
In what crazy Nolan-inspired dream-reality does Squall not look completely ****ing awesome. I mean, come on.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Maverick_King/Torture/AFO03HallCosplay-37.jpg

this one laughing

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Squall looks like a douche. And Tomba is badass.

Squall is the badass... not really sure who tomba is stick out tongue

Nephthys
Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Maverick_King/Torture/AFO03HallCosplay-37.jpg

this one laughing

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/5749/blech.jpg

linkownsyousobs
laughing

MooCowofJustice
You wouldn't know who Tomba is. Too few people have played his games. I only know of two others here who have, other than me of course.

Awesome games. I haven't played FF8 because I don't want to, but I'd bet Tomba is better.

Ridley_Prime
Who in this thread has actually played ToS again? Either way, looks like another potentially good versus topic that has gone to shit.

NemeBro
I played ToS.

Though I cannot recall anything from Lloyd to give him a win over Link, short of the "LOLICUTPLANETINHALF" sword.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Who in this thread has actually played ToS again? Either way, looks like another potentially good versus topic that has gone to shit. I played the first ten minutes once, the reason I haven't started any debate is because I don't know enough about Lloyd to make any claims. /Shrug. Other than that Link is cooler looking. uhuh STYLISH CAP.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Who in this thread has actually played ToS again? Either way, looks like another potentially good versus topic that has gone to shit.

Yeah, this is true. And I think it's my fault, so, sorry Tac. sad

Our guest Sr. ScreamPaste has contributed as well. uhuh

Lloyd's suspenders > > >http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IUpVtWAVL._SL75_.jpg uhuh

Nephthys
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
You wouldn't know who Tomba is. Too few people have played his games. I only know of two others here who have, other than me of course.

Awesome games. I haven't played FF8 because I don't want to, but I'd bet Tomba is better.

I played the Tomba game. It was ok. Can't really remember it that well though. sad

linkownsyousobs
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
You wouldn't know who Tomba is. Too few people have played his games. I only know of two others here who have, other than me of course.

Awesome games. I haven't played FF8 because I don't want to, but I'd bet Tomba is better.

I'll check it out if I ever get the chance.

Why do u hate on the FF games all the time? They're really good games if your into rpgs. If not, then I understand. A lot of my friends don't like rpgs, or FF games either. They'd rather play a game where you can actually go around and kill things yourself.

Cyner
I played ToS a lot when I had it and there really is nothing to indicate a victory for Lloyd.

LLLLLink
Regal was the best thing about ToS. The game was fun, at least.

http://hardcoreblader.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/regal-bryant.jpg

TacDavey
Alright... So Link wins because he dresses better...

Well... Sadly that is a more logical line of reasoning than some of the things I've seen come up on this site. messed

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TacDavey
Alright... So Link wins because he dresses better...

Well... Sadly that is a more logical line of reasoning than some of the things I've seen come up on this site. messed haermm Highfive to that! But, yeah, I'm sorry I can't be more helpful, never finished ToS.

No End N Site
Hey! It's ma'boy Lloyd. ToS was the last RPG I played. Good game!

ScreamPaste
**** it, little known characters like Lloyd being brought to Games Versus = good. I HEREBY DECLARE THAT I SUPPORT LINK AND WILL DEBATE AS SUCH.

Where are the feats for Lloyd?

NemeBro
Lloyd Irving a little known character? Lol, he is no Link, but he is hardly not well known.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by NemeBro
Lloyd Irving a little known character? Lol, he is no Link, but he is hardly not well known. He's not exactrly over used in this forum, you get my point. I embrace a little variety, and will temporarily come out of retirement to debate if it promotes variety. FOR THE GREATER GOOD. /troll.

MooCowofJustice
Only a little variety? I propose we remake all the classics, like Link vs Sephiroth, but with a slight twist. Shovels. All weapons are replaced with shovels of the same properties as their weapons.

Shovel beastings. They will be everywhere.

ScreamPaste
Shovels are top tier.

TacDavey
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
**** it, little known characters like Lloyd being brought to Games Versus = good. I HEREBY DECLARE THAT I SUPPORT LINK AND WILL DEBATE AS SUCH.

Where are the feats for Lloyd?

Hmm... Well, his ex-sphere gives him above human abilities, but it's never really specified just how above human. It's also a special ex-sphere. And depending on what you make of the ending, it looks like he can fly.

Oh, He also canonly defeated Kratos, a crazy powerful angel guy who spanks the whole team by himself easily on a number of occasions throughout the game. And Lloyd beat him completely by himself.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Only a little variety? I propose we remake all the classics, like Link vs Sephiroth, but with a slight twist. Shovels. All weapons are replaced with shovels of the same properties as their weapons.

Shovel beastings. They will be everywhere.

What about those who don't use weapons? I suppose they could cast... shovel spells.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TacDavey
Hmm... Well, his ex-sphere gives him above human abilities, but it's never really specified just how above human. It's also a special ex-sphere. And depending on what you make of the ending, it looks like he can fly.

Oh, He also canonly defeated Kratos, a crazy powerful angel guy who spanks the whole team by himself easily on a number of occasions throughout the game. And Lloyd beat him completely by himself.



What about those who don't use weapons? I suppose they could cast... shovel spells. So, Lloyd's actual capabilities are ambiguous? What can be inferred from Kratos? What are it's feats? Can it compete with Link on any level? Did Lloyd not have a sword that can apparently cut a planet in half during that fight? (Which he doesn't have here XP)

TacDavey
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So, Lloyd's actual capabilities are ambiguous? What can be inferred from Kratos? What are it's feats? Can it compete with Link on any level? Did Lloyd not have a sword that can apparently cut a planet in half during that fight? (Which he doesn't have here XP)

Well, it's an old game, so Lloyd really doesn't do too much past preset animations outside of battle. He did jump off a cliff towards the beginning of the game, and one of the main enemy dudes commented that no human should be able to survive that fall. Not only did he survive it, he landed easily on his feet like he was hopping off a stool.

Kratos is pretty much an expert swordsman. That, and he has an ex-shpere that gives him angel powers. He's been around since ancient times, and he's one of the main villains right hand guys. In fact, besides the main villian, he's the strongest member of that group. He can fly, and cast powerful magic.

No, Lloyd didn't have the eternal sword at that point. He was actually fighting Kratos to get it. Besides, Lloyd doesn't use the eternal sword to fight anyway. He only summons it when he needs it for something.

I'm not sure I see Link beating Kratos...

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, it's an old game, so Lloyd really doesn't do too much past preset animations outside of battle. He did jump off a cliff towards the beginning of the game, and one of the main enemy dudes commented that no human should be able to survive that fall. Not only did he survive it, he landed easily on his feet like he was hopping off a stool.

Kratos is pretty much an expert swordsman. That, and he has an ex-shpere that gives him angel powers. He's been around since ancient times, and he's one of the main villains right hand guys. In fact, besides the main villian, he's the strongest member of that group. He can fly, and cast powerful magic.

No, Lloyd didn't have the eternal sword at that point. He was actually fighting Kratos to get it. Besides, Lloyd doesn't use the eternal sword to fight anyway. He only summons it when he needs it for something.

I'm not sure I see Link beating Kratos... I'd need to hear some of Kratos' feats for a comparison.

It doesn't sound like Lloyd is fast or durable enough to win, based on what you've told me, imho.

In OoT, Link reflects lightning with his sword during his fight with Ganondorf, and chucks a large stone pillar before that, putting his strength in the gigajoule range. So, he could very probably kill Lloyd with one shot.

TacDavey
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I'd need to hear some of Kratos' feats for a comparison.

It doesn't sound like Lloyd is fast or durable enough to win, based on what you've told me, imho.

In OoT, Link reflects lightning with his sword during his fight with Ganondorf, and chucks a large stone pillar before that, putting his strength in the gigajoule range. So, he could very probably kill Lloyd with one shot.

Kratos is basically the strongest person in that world, besides the main villian and Abysson, a side boss. Which places Lloyd in his place once he defeated him.

Link reflects Ganondorfs magic with the Master Sword, yeah. But that won't be a problem fighting Lloyd since Lloyd doesn't shoot balls of energy.

Lloyd fights people with super strength all the time. In fact, almost everyone he fights in the game has an ex-sphere, which gives them above human abilities. Not to mention the monsters he fights, such as dragons and other beasts that have super strong attacks.

Plus, like I said before. Lloyd jumped off a cliff and landed no problem. And that was at the beginning of the game, when he was at his weakest. Last time I checked, if Link jumps off something too high up he dies, or at least looses a chunk of health.

MooCowofJustice
Link picked up a stone that applies more force to him than a terminal velocity fall. At least I'm pretty sure it's more force.

And this is OoT Link, right?

ScreamPaste
is OoT Link yes.

The falling damage is a gameplay mechanic, and far, far less force than Link could exert on Lloyd. Link's reaction time is very important, as well, because unless Lloyd has very good speed feats he can't hit Link.

TacDavey
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
is OoT Link yes.

The falling damage is a gameplay mechanic, and far, far less force than Link could exert on Lloyd. Link's reaction time is very important, as well, because unless Lloyd has very good speed feats he can't hit Link.

No.. That's not quite right. The falling damage shows that Link can't sustain high falls like that. Otherwise you could say that the damage he takes from a stalfos's sword is gameplay mechanics.

What do you mean he can't hit Link? Link isn't super fast, he moves at a completely normal pace. Unless he has the Bunny Hood, but even then he isn't all that fast. And besides... He doesn't have the Bunny Hood.

Nephthys
I see Scream is still suffering under the delusion that Link is a lightning-timer. What foolishness.

baitbaitbaitbait

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TacDavey
No.. That's not quite right. The falling damage shows that Link can't sustain high falls like that. Otherwise you could say that the damage he takes from a stalfos's sword is gameplay mechanics.

What do you mean he can't hit Link? Link isn't super fast, he moves at a completely normal pace. Unless he has the Bunny Hood, but even then he isn't all that fast. And besides... He doesn't have the Bunny Hood. Link in cutscenes has withstood far greater force than a simple fall. no expression It's gameplay mechanics.

Actually, being able to react in time to reflect lightning back at Ganondorf is a pretty good feat, he can react far faster than any human, and is far stronger as well. Does Lloyd have any feats that compare to attempting to block a blow from a class 100+ character without his arm shattering? (Link does in a cutscene and is massively class 100+ himself) Without that, or a speed feat that puts him close to lightning, he can't fight Link.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
I see Scream is still suffering under the delusion that Link is a lightning-timer. What foolishness.

baitbaitbaitbait The argument Ganondorf magicly slowed his own attacks is a faulty one.

Nomnomnombait.

Even without that, Lloyd's got no listed speed feats thus far.

Nephthys
I never said he did, I merely pointed out that the attack he used is obviously ball lightning rather than the forked etc varities.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said he did, I merely pointed out that the attack he used is obviously ball lightning rather than the forked etc varities. An uncomfirmed and unexplained phenomena which has no known source and has never been recreated, is little known? Gee, that sounds likely when we see the lightning bolt in his hand. stick out tongue

MooCowofJustice
Ball Lightning gives Ganon a new power that makes him even better, or the explanation for it does not fit the situation the attack happens in at all. Those are really the only two choices when it comes to that argument.

So yeah, Ball lightning is total bullshit.

linkownsyousobs
This again? Grr...

He threw the f*cking thing. Any real "Lightning" I've seen has always been shot. For you to claim OoT Link is a Lightning timer, you'd have to prove Gannon threw it Lightning speed.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
This again? Grr...

He threw the f*cking thing. Any real "Lightning" I've seen has always been shot. For you to claim OoT Link is a Lightning timer, you'd have to prove Gannon threw it Lightning speed. Using full speed lightning has been in Ganon's powerset since 1991, you'd need to prove he intentionally slowed it. no expression

Nephthys
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
An uncomfirmed and unexplained phenomena which has no known source and has never been recreated, is little known? Gee, that sounds likely when we see the lightning bolt in his hand. stick out tongue

Erm, could you re-phrase that first bit please? Me no speaky crazy talk. And no, we don't see a lightning bolt in his hand, we see a lightning ball in his hands.

UK5tjyp8nEc

Seriously, how the hell can you deny that is ball lightning? It's ROUND for christs sake. How the **** can regular lightning be round? I'm actually asking.



Its bullshit because you don't like it? erm

And no, it makes him weaker. yes




UK5tjyp8nEc

Bam. Video proof that it is moving slower than regular lightning.

/discussion.

ScreamPaste
Video of gameplay mechanics, cool. A player cannot react to lightning, if it moved at lightning speed in gameplay the game would be unbeatable.

linkownsyousobs
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Using full speed lightning has been in Ganon's powerset since 1991, you'd need to prove he intentionally slowed it. no expression

1.) OoT is the prequel, alttp chronalogically comes last doesn't it? 1991 means nothing to me or Miyamoto as far as the time line goes. no expression

2.) Gannon in alttp shot it, in OoT he threw it no expression

3.) I'm at work so this will probably be my last post tonight. I don't have internet at the house yet.

4.) I know nothing about the other guy, I still think Link wins, but he isn't a lightning timer. I just hope u do a better job defending him stick out tongue

Nephthys
Or Link could actually have superspeed in the game.

MooCowofJustice
No, legit. All recent theories on Ball Lightning either do not apply to the situation Ganon and Link find themselves in for Lightning Tennis, or it gives Ganon a new power. Like creating black holes.

Nephthys
Well I'm sorry but its on-screen. It happens. We can't just ignore it and say, 'it gives him a new power and thats so unfwair.' It's in the damn game. We are not giving him a new power anyway, we are making sense of an already existing one. Ganon chucks those things around no matter what. What we are trying to decide upon is simply what it is that he chucks around. And given overwhelming evidence (it is electricity, it produces sparks and shit, its a ball, it moves at a speed consistent with ball lightning etc) I really have no choice but to deduce that its Ball Lightning.

And besides, according to Scream Ganon has been using lightning-based attacks for 20 years. It's not a new power at all.

ScreamPaste
1. This is not overwhelming evidence, this is a gameplay mechanic allowing the player to actually complete the section.
2. Can you even cite a consistent speed for ball lightning? I can't.
3. Ball lightning can't even be confirmed to be electrical.
4. It's doubtful the designers would even know about it.

TacDavey
Whoa, whoa. Slow down. Are you saying that ball Ganon shoots at Link is moving at light speeds? Based off of nothing more than the fact that his charge up animation for it looks like electricity? Or some zap animations play when it hits?

Come on people, it's a magic ball. He isn't shooting straight up lighting, that's ridiculous. Like the other guy points out, it's a glowing magic BALL.

That jelly thing in jabu jabu's stomach shot lighting. See the difference?

It's just a magic attack that uses electrical animations to make it look cool. Nothing more.

TacDavey
Oh, wait. One moa thing!

Lloyd actual DOES have a feat to match that that I forgot about till just now. And it's in story line, not game play. AND it's actual lighting, NOT a ball we think might be considered lightning.

Go to 1:44 of this video. Lloyd does just what Link does with actual lightning except he doesn't shoot it back. Keep watching, he does it a couple times, so it isn't a fluke or anything.

Oh, spoiler warning for this video too. Just so you know...

LOtGLe7hr2A

ScreamPaste
Cool, Lloyd might be able to keep up. Link doing so is also part of the storyline though, shit's mandatory. >|

Any strength feat to let him hurt Link, or durability feat to survive a hit?

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I'm sorry but its on-screen. It happens. We can't just ignore it and say, 'it gives him a new power and thats so unfwair.' It's in the damn game. We are not giving him a new power anyway, we are making sense of an already existing one. Ganon chucks those things around no matter what. What we are trying to decide upon is simply what it is that he chucks around. And given overwhelming evidence (it is electricity, it produces sparks and shit, its a ball, it moves at a speed consistent with ball lightning etc) I really have no choice but to deduce that its Ball Lightning.

And besides, according to Scream Ganon has been using lightning-based attacks for 20 years. It's not a new power at all.

I'm not saying to ignore it. I'm saying to treat it like the actual lightning that it is. Because Paste is right, Ball Lightning is something we know literally nothing about.

If you'd notice in my last post, I did not say Ball Lightning is a new attack. I said that if the attack is Ball Lightning, then all possible explanations for it can be applied to it since nobody is sure what the real cause is. And all of the explanations for the phenomenon that I have seen either do not fit the situation that Ganon and Link are in, or require something that isn't there and would therefore give Ganon a new power. The ability to create black holes is just one of those powers you might give him.

Once again, not what I said.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh, wait. One moa thing!

Lloyd actual DOES have a feat to match that that I forgot about till just now. And it's in story line, not game play. AND it's actual lighting, NOT a ball we think might be considered lightning.

Go to 1:44 of this video. Lloyd does just what Link does with actual lightning except he doesn't shoot it back. Keep watching, he does it a couple times, so it isn't a fluke or anything.

Oh, spoiler warning for this video too. Just so you know...

LOtGLe7hr2A

That's a good feat for Lloyd. That is actually a straight shot of lightning and Lloyd successfully blocked it. That's impressive because the previous character was shoot by the same lightning and couldn't do anything about it. Hell, it was killed/defeated by it. So I suppose that makes Lloyd durable enough to deflect lightning attacks.

And I'm with Tac and Nephthys on this one. I see no reason to think that that magic orb is moving at light speed just because its animation features sparks around it. Everything in that scene is moving at a normal speed phase. Even Lloyd's lightning moves faster than that magic ball. When Link is reflecting those magic orbs at that guy Ganon, everything moves at normal speed, there isn't any indication that the gameplay or scenery is slowed down for the players. The entire battle is placed in real time.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's a good feat for Lloyd. That is actually a straight shot of lightning and Lloyd successfully blocked it. That's impressive because the previous character was shoot by the same lightning and couldn't do anything about it. Hell, it was killed/defeated by it. So I suppose that makes Lloyd durable enough to deflect lightning attacks.

And I'm with Tac and Nephthys on this one. I see no reason to think that that magic orb is moving at light speed just because its animation features sparks around it. Everything in that scene is moving at a normal speed phase. Even Lloyd's lightning moves faster than that magic ball. When Link is reflecting those magic orbs at that guy Ganon, everything moves at normal speed, there isn't any indication that the gameplay or scenery is slowed down for the players. The entire battle is placed in real time. Hurrah, you can see gameplay.

Gameplay speed =/= Actual speed. Otherwise there'd be a lot of failures of bullet timers out there, even Zeus in GoW's lightning is slower in gameplay than actual lightning and he is the embodiment of lightning himself, Ganondorf's canonicly been using full speed lightning since 1991, there's no reason he'd intentionally weaken one of the keystones of his powerset. IE, Ganondorf would have to lose on purpose for your agument to be valid. He didn't. The only thing any of you have cited to try and discredit the feat is a gameplay section, gameplay lightning cannot move at full speed because then the player cannot react to it.

Stop trying to downplay the feat, if people want to debate, bring out Lloyd's feats. He has a decent reaction / durability feat there. Durability wise it's not going to help him, though, so does anyone have a better one for durability?

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Gameplay speed =/= Actual speed. Otherwise there'd be a lot of failures of bullet timers out there, even Zeus in GoW's lightning is slower in gameplay than actual lightning and he is the embodiment of lightning himself, Ganondorf's canonicly been using full speed lightning since 1991, there's no reason he'd intentionally weaken one of the keystones of his powerset. IE, Ganondorf would have to lose on purpose for your agument to be valid. He didn't. The only thing any of you have cited to try and discredit the feat is a gameplay section, gameplay lightning cannot move at full speed because then the player cannot react to it.

Players can still miss the button to block that orb, though. You would have an argument if the scene would be slowed down and placed on a different time atmosphere for the players. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.

TacDavey
Maybe Ganon can use full speed lighting, but he didn't. That wasn't lighting, it was a magic ball. If it were lighting, it would have looked like what Lloyd blocked, or what that parasite jelly fish shoots.

Ganons skill set changes each game. That makes it more interesting. If he did the same exact attacks every time you ever faced him in a Zelda game, it would be boring. Maybe Ganon used lightning before, but he didn't in that fight.

As for Lloyds durability. His physical abilities are above a normal humans. I've seen no good reason to think Links are.

MooCowofJustice
...you ever played a Zelda game at all?

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Players can still miss the button to block that orb, though. You would have an argument if the scene would be slowed down and placed on a different time atmosphere for the players. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. You would have an argument if you weren't citing a gameplay mechanic. But you are, there's nothing to discredit it. Also, 1998. no expression And Zelda games have never bothered with all that flashy slowmo crap. Even when time is legitimately slowed in Majora's Mask. Originally posted by TacDavey
Maybe Ganon can use full speed lighting, but he didn't. That wasn't lighting, it was a magic ball. If it were lighting, it would have looked like what Lloyd blocked, or what that parasite jelly fish shoots.

Ganons skill set changes each game. That makes it more interesting. If he did the same exact attacks every time you ever faced him in a Zelda game, it would be boring. Maybe Ganon used lightning before, but he didn't in that fight.

As for Lloyds durability. His physical abilities are above a normal humans. I've seen no good reason to think Links are. So your argument is Ganon intentionally sabotaged himself, worded differently? We know exactly what the attack is, it's electrical, it crackles when it hits you, it's a bolt when he forms it. It's lightning. Why would he make it slower than it can be for an attack, when we know he's used full speed lightning multiple times?

No reason to believe Link's are? I agree with Moo, ever played a Zelda game? His strength is in the gigajoule range, his durability is just as high. We have a cutscene of Ganon in OoT disarming Link without crushing his arm, a normal man would have evaporated. We have Link chucking massive pillars, moving heavy blocks, ect. And reflecting lightning with sword swings, can Lloyd compare to that or not?

MooCowofJustice
I can't think of a single Zelda game I have played where Link is even Peak Human at his best.

MooCowofJustice
Not agreeing with Tac. Means Link's best is always above Peak Human. Too late to edit.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You would have an argument if you weren't citing a gameplay mechanic. But you are, there's nothing to discredit it. Also, 1998. no expression And Zelda games have never bothered with all that flashy slowmo crap. Even when time is legitimately slowed in Majora's Mask.

So you admit there's nothing indicating that the scene has been slowed down for the players. Cool, because everything, as I said, was placed in real time in that fight.

ScreamPaste
Reread the post, mah boi, even in games that game after OoT, slow mo effects simply do not happen. In MM you could legitimately slow the flow of time by half and the change was not visible.

You have no argument, you cite a gameplay mechanic. GG, thanks for playing. erm Either come back with a feat for Lloyd or come up with something better than the gameplay speed.

GrieverSquall
Okay, you give me no reason to think that the magical orb was moving at super-speed then. I mean, you say the orb is moving at super-speed just because the orb is moving at super-speed. That's literally your argument.

And why I'm citing a gameplay mechanic?

MooCowofJustice
Actually the argument is that, since Ganon has been shown using Lightning for his attacks since Zelda games have been around, this counts as a serious Lightning attack because Ganon is not going to hamper his own attack so that he can lose on purpose.

Then it follows that since most people can't react to lightning (I can, it's fun) it simply looks slower, but in canon it would not be. He shot lightning, Link reacted to it.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Okay, you give me no reason to think that the magical orb was moving at super-speed then. I mean, you say the orb is moving at super-speed just because the orb is moving at super-speed. That's literally your argument.

And why I'm citing a gameplay mechanic? No, my argument is because it is lightning it moves lightning speed. no expression Ganondorf's consistently had attacks MUCH faster than that, why would he slow it down dramaticly? He wouldn't. It's gameplay allowing the player to react.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Actually the argument is that, since Ganon has been shown using Lightning for his attacks since Zelda games have been around, this counts as a serious Lightning attack because Ganon is not going to hamper his own attack so that he can lose on purpose.

Then it follows that since most people can't react to lightning (I can, it's fun) it simply looks slower, but in canon it would not be. He shot lightning, Link reacted to it.

Those were the same attacks? Tac said this was Ocarina of Time Link. And if that guy had attacks much faster than this one in other games and players could still play, then why are you guys saying this one has been slowed down? Where is your evidence that the developers had that fight slowed down? There's no indication of such. It is in real time.

True, normal people wouldn't be able to track a lightning bolt coming at them with their eyes and then successfully defend against it (Lloyd did). However, this is far from being a lightning bolt. It's just a floating magical electric orb that can be reflected back and forth. Trust me, if that attack was really meant to be super fast, then the developers would have done it for that purpose.

The Scenario
All I know is that the attack moves a lot faster in cutscene than it does in gameplay.

v3FSsNA78iI

1:50. Please note that this is Ganondorf before he gains the Triforce of Power, and thus this attack was unamped, yet Young Link still couldn't react to it. Given that around this time Young Link was probably dodging Barinade's lightning, it lends credence to the speed theory. Later, both Link and Ganondorf are at their best, and Ganondorf is amped by the Triforce. I see no reason for Ganondorf to use an attack that was slower than one he uses while not amped by the Triforce.

TacDavey
I just explained why his attack would be slower. Because it's a new game. The developers aren't going to have Ganon shooting full speed lightning every single game if they don't want him to.

Your one and only defense for this ball being lightning is that he shot lightning in OTHER GAMES. They did not, however, have him do it in THIS ONE. So, yes, by the looks of it, technically Ganon is a moron in OoT because he had better attacks, but he simply didn't use them. Why? Because the developers didn't have him use them. The developers don't have to give Ganon the same attacks in each game. It might be wise on their part to keep his abilities consistent, but THEY DON'T HAVE TO IF THEY DON'T WANT TO. So if you see an attack Ganon pulls out in a later game that is worse than stuff he did before, you cannot simply add states to power up the attack to where YOU think it should be.

Bottom line, there is NO indication time slows down, there is NO indication the ball is moving any faster than it is on the screen, there is NO indication it is anything other than a magic ball. Sure it cracks when it hits you. The effects placed on it look like electricity. Maybe the ball is electrical in nature. That doesn't mean it moves as fast as lightning. In Tails of Symphonia, you get a magic ring that shoots little balls of electricity. By your argument, since it sparks and zaps like electricity, it MUST me moving the speed of a bolt of lightning, right?

Of course not. This is a video game, things can, and do, work differently.

Also, Link has higher strength thanks to the gauntlets, but he himself is a normal guy. In fact, I'm pretty sure strength is the only thing he has higher than normal. He gets the Triforce, but it isn't clear exactly what that does for him.

MooCowofJustice
Like I said before, Link is above Peak Human at his worst in just about every Zelda game.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Those were the same attacks? Tac said this was Ocarina of Time Link. And if that guy had attacks much faster than this one in other games and players could still play, then why are you guys saying this one has been slowed down? Where is your evidence that the developers had that fight slowed down? There's no indication of such. It is in real time.

True, normal people wouldn't be able to track a lightning bolt coming at them with their eyes and then successfully defend against it (Lloyd did). However, this is far from being a lightning bolt. It's just a floating magical electric orb that can be reflected back and forth. Trust me, if that attack was really meant to be super fast, then the developers would have done it for that purpose. This is not how it works, again all you cite is a gameplay mechanic, saying "trust me", and then telling everyone what the devs would do, except we know they wouldn't. In Majora's Mask, you literally slow down time, and the change is not visible in gameplay, do you comprehend this? This comes after OoT, the only thing slow about the attack at all is the gameplay, we have a cutscene by Scenario showing the attack is far faster before Ganondorf even gains his power, why, praytell, would it be slow? Ganondorf would have to lose on purpose, that is it.

Link tracked a lightning attack with his eyes and /deflected it back/, Lloyd appears to have stood infront of it and stopped it with his hand or something, couldn't see from behind him. Originally posted by The Scenario
All I know is that the attack moves a lot faster in cutscene than it does in gameplay.

v3FSsNA78iI

1:50. Please note that this is Ganondorf before he gains the Triforce of Power, and thus this attack was unamped, yet Young Link still couldn't react to it. Given that around this time Young Link was probably dodging Barinade's lightning, it lends credence to the speed theory. Later, both Link and Ganondorf are at their best, and Ganondorf is amped by the Triforce. I see no reason for Ganondorf to use an attack that was slower than one he uses while not amped by the Triforce. Thank you, Scenario.

Young Link: Dodges Barinade's attack, doesn't dodge Ganon's. Ganon and Link both are significantly more powerful end game, whatcha think, Tac, Griever?Originally posted by TacDavey
I just explained why his attack would be slower. Because it's a new game. The developers aren't going to have Ganon shooting full speed lightning every single game if they don't want him to.

Your one and only defense for this ball being lightning is that he shot lightning in OTHER GAMES. They did not, however, have him do it in THIS ONE. So, yes, by the looks of it, technically Ganon is a moron in OoT because he had better attacks, but he simply didn't use them. Why? Because the developers didn't have him use them. The developers don't have to give Ganon the same attacks in each game. It might be wise on their part to keep his abilities consistent, but THEY DON'T HAVE TO IF THEY DON'T WANT TO. So if you see an attack Ganon pulls out in a later game that is worse than stuff he did before, you cannot simply add states to power up the attack to where YOU think it should be.

Bottom line, there is NO indication time slows down, there is NO indication the ball is moving any faster than it is on the screen, there is NO indication it is anything other than a magic ball. Sure it cracks when it hits you. The effects placed on it look like electricity. Maybe the ball is electrical in nature. That doesn't mean it moves as fast as lightning. In Tails of Symphonia, you get a magic ring that shoots little balls of electricity. By your argument, since it sparks and zaps like electricity, it MUST me moving the speed of a bolt of lightning, right?

Of course not. This is a video game, things can, and do, work differently.

Also, Link has higher strength thanks to the gauntlets, but he himself is a normal guy. In fact, I'm pretty sure strength is the only thing he has higher than normal. He gets the Triforce, but it isn't clear exactly what that does for him. No, you speculated why, based on nothing but a gameplay mechanic, you're denying a feat.

Negative, look at the rest of the game. Even Ganon's non-lightning attacks are much faster outside of gameplay before he has his source of power. You cannot cite developer intentions you have no clue about, all you're doing is looking at a gameplay mechanic and saying "but it moves slower than lightning in gameplay". By this standard, no bullet moves at bullet speed. no expression

Have you /ever/ played a Zelda game? I keep explaining this point, there is NEVER slowmotion bullshit in Zelda games, even when TIME ITSELF is slowed down. Ganondorf's attacks in this game are faster in cutscenes, lightning by it's VERY NATURE moves fast, why would he use his magic to slow it down? Seriously, your argument hinges on this, come up with a reason that isn't "because it moves slowly in gameplay", that is NOT an argument. Stop trying to downplay a valid feat, it is not a valid way to debate. The only times Ganon's lightning attack is slowed is when the human player needs to deflect it, young Link dodges barinade early in the game and cannot react to Ganon's first attack, GEE. This is a consistent part of Ganondorf's power set, you're trying to ignore that. Link handles lightning throughout nearly every Zelda game, so often there's a case to be made on consistency alone, infact, twice or more in OoT alone, and you ignore that, your ONLY argument is there's no indication the gameplay is slower, when a cutscene in the exact same game indicates exactly that and as I KEEP telling you guys, even when time is slowed in Zelda games, the change is not visible in gameplay. Holy crap, is it this hard to wrap your mind around?

Yes, so we should just ignore all evidence in favour of downplaying the other character? /eyeroll.

Ever even read my posts? Link in Ocarina of Time survives having his sword knocked from his hand by Ganon who is even stronger than himself, he reflects lightning, and you have yet to come up with a valid way to disprove that, either come up with something that isn't based on gameplay or gtfo, and yes, his strength is significantly higher. Lloyd needs a godly strength feat just to harm Link based on the block in that cutscene.

TacDavey
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Like I said before, Link is above Peak Human at his worst in just about every Zelda game.

I don't see that. He usually needs weapons or magic items to allow him to do anything above human.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, you speculated why, based on nothing but a gameplay mechanic, you're denying a feat.

Negative, look at the rest of the game. Even Ganon's non-lightning attacks are much faster outside of gameplay before he has his source of power. You cannot cite developer intentions you have no clue about, all you're doing is looking at a gameplay mechanic and saying "but it moves slower than lightning in gameplay". By this standard, no bullet moves at bullet speed. no expression

Have you /ever/ played a Zelda game? I keep explaining this point, there is NEVER slowmotion bullshit in Zelda games, even when TIME ITSELF is slowed down. Ganondorf's attacks in this game are faster in cutscenes, lightning by it's VERY NATURE moves fast, why would he use his magic to slow it down? Seriously, your argument hinges on this, come up with a reason that isn't "because it moves slowly in gameplay", that is NOT an argument. Stop trying to downplay a valid feat, it is not a valid way to debate. The only times Ganon's lightning attack is slowed is when the human player needs to deflect it, young Link dodges barinade early in the game and cannot react to Ganon's first attack, GEE. This is a consistent part of Ganondorf's power set, you're trying to ignore that. Link handles lightning throughout nearly every Zelda game, so often there's a case to be made on consistency alone, infact, twice or more in OoT alone, and you ignore that, your ONLY argument is there's no indication the gameplay is slower, when a cutscene in the exact same game indicates exactly that and as I KEEP telling you guys, even when time is slowed in Zelda games, the change is not visible in gameplay. Holy crap, is it this hard to wrap your mind around?

Yes, so we should just ignore all evidence in favour of downplaying the other character? /eyeroll.

Ever even read my posts? Link in Ocarina of Time survives having his sword knocked from his hand by Ganon who is even stronger than himself, he reflects lightning, and you have yet to come up with a valid way to disprove that, either come up with something that isn't based on gameplay or gtfo, and yes, his strength is significantly higher. Lloyd needs a godly strength feat just to harm Link based on the block in that cutscene.

No, it is YOU who is hinging your points off of baseless speculation. There is no evidence that ball is moving as fast as lightning. None. You ASSUME it must be because he did it in past games and you ASSUME it is lightning because it has crackle effects placed on it. You are drawing radical conclusions without the necessary evidence to back it up.

Here's another alternative. It's a magic ball that doesn't move as fast as lightning and has crackle effects placed on it.

Now that sounds far more logical than:

It's lightning, but it looks like a ball, and it moves as fast as lightning but time actually slows down when he shoots it even though there is no evidence of this in the game.

Ockhams Razor states that the simpler explanation for something is the more logical. Your explanation requires much more baseless assumption than mine does. Just look at the two lined up.

Let's dissect your argument further.

You claim that the ball must be moving at light speeds because either it is actually lightning that just looks like a ball for unexplained reasons, or because it is electrical in nature, and anything that is electrical in nature must move at light speeds.

The first part is easily discredited. Earlier in the same game Barinade shot electricity. Why, then, does Ganon's look like a ball and Barinades doesn't? The answer is easy. They aren't the same. Barinade is electricity stored up and shot out and Ganon's is a magic ball.

So we know it isn't actually lightning he is throwing. But what about the second alternative?

Again, easily discredited. Obviously anything that has electrical effects placed on it does not necessarily move at light speeds. The example from Tales of Symphonia illustrates this quite nicely. It doesn't take a logician to figure out that the simple act of having something be electrical in nature absolutely always makes it move at lightning speeds.

One more

You claim that Ganon shot full speed lightning in past games, so he must in this one. I've already responded to this one. Ganon has a whole host of abilities from all the games he's been in. yet he only uses two f them in that fight. As I said before, Ganon doesn't have to use all his abilities. He fights how the developers want him to fight, not how YOU think he should fight. So it isn't necessary that Ganon use full speed lightning in this fight. After all, he has tons of other abilities that doesn't use.

So with these examples we see that Ganon doesn't NECESSARILY have to shoot a light speed electrical ball. There is another possible explanation. And in this case, the second explanation is far more simple and requires less explanation, making it the more logical.

Once more quickly summarized. Your theory requires the added explanation of a shift in the speed of time which can not be seen, nor proven. As well as the added mystery of why the lightning in question looks like a ball. Whereas MY theory is just as sound, and does NOT require added explanations of any kind. Namely, that it is simply a magic ball that has crackle effects on it. Ockhams Razor does the rest.

As for Link having the sword knocked from his hand, that proves nothing. The attack didn't fully land on Link, it only skid him enough to knock the sword out of his hand. Had the attack actually hit, Link would have been severely wounded or dead.

So while Link may be stronger than Lloyd thanks to his gauntlets, that isn't enough to give the victory to Link.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not how it works, again all you cite is a gameplay mechanic, saying "trust me", and then telling everyone what the devs would do, except we know they wouldn't. In Majora's Mask, you literally slow down time, and the change is not visible in gameplay, do you comprehend this? This comes after OoT, the only thing slow about the attack at all is the gameplay, we have a cutscene by Scenario showing the attack is far faster before Ganondorf even gains his power, why, praytell, would it be slow? Ganondorf would have to lose on purpose, that is it.

Link tracked a lightning attack with his eyes and /deflected it back/, Lloyd appears to have stood infront of it and stopped it with his hand or something, couldn't see from behind him. Thank you, Scenario.

What? You are the one saying the developers slowed down an attack for the players, so the one using gameplay as defense here is you. I'm simply saying there's no indication of such. Hell, the whole fight from where that supposed 'feat' comes is gameplay, and I AM the one citing gameplay? Give me a break. Why do you keep bringing up other games, by the way? How do you slow down time in that one? The player does, right? It's not like it is slowed down because an attack is moving far faster than normal, thus the developers had to slow it down. As for the video, are you saying that ball moves slower that the one Ganon uses afterwards? Isn't Link a lot more near to Ganondorf in that scene than in the fight? When Ganon raises his hand to begin charging his attack, it's a first person view, we can clearly see when he releases the magic ball, when it approaches at us and then when finally hits Link.

No, I'm sorry. Just because that thing features electrical effects and sparks does not mean that it is moving at lightning speed. It isn't a lightning bolt, nor a thunder bolt. It's just an electrical orb that floats through air and can be reflected by sword swings. Lloyd on the other hand successfully blocked a thunder bolt (which killed another character) with his sword OUTSIDE gameplay. And he did it twice. C the difference?

ScreamPaste
Not gonna bother quoting your wall of text, will summarise:

1. Nah, Lightning moving at lightning speed is not exactly an assumption, particularly when the character has used full speed lightning consistently, and intentionally slowing down his own attack is sabotaging himself, which you cannot prove he did.

2. You are speculating he's got a new, slower, attack, which he's using in preference to the better version we know he has, based solely on gameplay mechanics.

3. The only thing that suggests the lightning is moving slowly at all is a gameplay mechanic which you're clinging to.

4. Occam's razor*, when applied to lightning would indicate that it's moving at the speed of lightning. You keep citing that the attack is shaped like a ball. Well, the gameplay section is essentially tennis, what other shape could it take? Zeus' lightning takes this exact form 11 years later, when he and Kratos do something similar. Going to argue that's a slower attack Zeus invented on the spot to **** himself, too?

5. Ganon's lightning is canonicly lightning speed, this is a lightning attack. Occam's razor, anyone? Your explanation requires a convoluted, made up on the spot, explanation for why Ganondorf uses a weaker attack in a serious situation. There is none.

So, to conclude, Link is stronger, more durable, and has the better reaction feat, you've posted no evidence Lloyd is strong enough to even damage Link. So, rather than trying to descredit a valid feat, how about posting some for Lloyd?

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What? You are the one saying the developers slowed down an attack for the players, so the one using gameplay as defense here is you. I'm simply saying there's no indication of such. Hell, the whole fight from where that supposed 'feat' comes is gameplay, and I AM the one citing gameplay? Give me a break. Why do you keep bringing up other games, by the way? How do you slow down time in that one? The player does, right? It's not like it is slowed down because an attack is moving far faster than normal, thus the developers had to slow it down. As for the video, are you saying that ball moves slower that the one Ganon uses afterwards? Isn't Link a lot more near to Ganondorf in that scene than in the fight? When Ganon raises his hand to begin charging his attack, it's a first person view, we can clearly see when he releases the magic ball, when it approaches at us and then when finally hits Link.

No, I'm sorry. Just because that thing features electrical effects and sparks does not mean that it is moving at lightning speed. It isn't a lightning bolt, nor a thunder bolt. It's just an electrical orb that floats through air and can be reflected by sword swings. Lloyd on the other hand successfully blocked a thunder bolt (which killed another character) with his sword OUTSIDE gameplay. And he did it twice. C the difference?
Go back and read your own post, you used the term "trust me" and insisted on what the developers would do, and still are doing so "if an attack was that fast the gameplay MUST show it!!", no, it must not do anything.

Ganondorf's lightning attacks are full speed in canon, this is a lightning attack. ????? Profit? ****, the underpants gnomes could figure this one out. no expression You are consistently not only citing gameplay mechanics, but a LACK of a gameplay mechanic. Does a lack of a breath bar in the NSMBWii mean Mario can breathe underwater? no expression

Lloyd blocked, IE, for all we know he stood infront of the bolt and tanked it. Link legitimately sent lightning bolts back at Ganondorf multiple times, by striking it as it came at him, this is a superior feat. And it was not a magic ball designed to be reflected, this is a property specificly attributed to the master sword which has been in use since 1991.

We see the feat on screen, we know that it's lightning, we know how fast Ganon's lightning is. Link has a feat. Get over it, and bring some feats for Lloyd.

Now, Lloyd's strength, got any proof he can harm Link?

Nephthys
I'm sorry I havn't been able to answer you Scream, but I've been doing coursework. Finished now, so I'll reply to you tomorrow, but I noticed that you asked me how fast Ball ligtning moves so heres what wikipedia says of the matter:

'They tend to move, most often in a horizontal direction at a few meters per second, but may also move vertically, remain stationary or wander erratically.'

Ganons about 6-8 meters away from Link and it takes about 2 secs to get between them, so the speed it partially consistent, or at least, far more so than that of actual lightning.

And I see that you still havn't explained why, if its actual lightning, that its a goddamn ball. Because in my mind thats a pretty big indication that its ball lightning.

ScreamPaste
A Gameplay mechanic requiring Ganondorf to sabotage himself.

-You want Link and Ganon playing tennis with a sideways Z? erm That would look retarded.
-The developers are even aware of this phenomena and are going to use a little known and unexplainable thing for an attack?
-Even if they give Ganondorf this, he's going to use it in preference to his faster more reliable attack, sabotaging himself?
-This is a common form for any projectile that's re/deflected, even lightning as seen in GoW3.

TheGoldenSpy
Link is a lighting timer, but all that means is that opponents slower than lighting will be unable to speedblitz him. Doesn't mean he is untouchable or anything. He's not very fast combat wise and without epona he is no more mobile than a human (I think)

Reactions are protection against speedblitz. That's it.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Link is a lighting timer, but all that means is that opponents slower than lighting will be unable to speedblitz him. Doesn't mean he is untouchable or anything. He's not very fast combat wise and without epona he is no more mobile than a human (I think)

Reactions are protection against speedblitz. That's it. And then someone reasonable shows up to accept the feat. Kool gai.

TheGoldenSpy
Ganondorf is clearly summoning REAL electricity when he does that attack, and when it hits him it effects him like electricity would. Alot of things may appear slowed down or nerfed because unlike fictional superpowered characters our very human brains are unable to percieve and react to something as fast as lighting coming at us and Nintendo is not known for making games highly difficult for the players.

It may technically be an assumption that Ganondorf is using Real lighting because he has used it before but it's alot more sensible and justified compared to thinking he would incase real lighting in a magical orb that would slow it down intentionally rather than it having more to do with nintendo making it possible for the player to have a chance.

That's my view atleast.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Ganondorf is clearly summoning REAL electricity when he does that attack, and when it hits him it effects him like electricity would. Alot of things may appear slowed down or nerfed because unlike fictional superpowered characters our very human brains are unable to percieve and react to something as fast as lighting coming at us and Nintendo is not known for making games highly difficult for the players.

It may technically be an assumption that Ganondorf is using Real lighting because he has used it before but it's alot more sensible and justified compared to thinking he would incase real lighting in a magical orb that would slow it down intentionally rather than it having more to do with nintendo making it possible for the player to have a chance.

That's my view atleast.
Thank you for explaining my point of view without the jadedness and frustration that comes from a few years of debating around here, lol.

This is basicly what I've been saying, and I agree.

linkownsyousobs
Please stop bringing up Gannon shooting lightning in other games as proof that the electrical attack in OoT is Lightning, or Zues from God of War... Gannon isn't Zues.

alttp is supposed to be at the end of the series, while OoT is supposed to be the the prequel to the series.You seemed to ignore this last time so I thought I'd post it again. Nothing says that Gannon in OoT has all of his powers from other games. That attack isn't lightning, it just has the properties of electricity. It shocks you if you get hit.

The video the other guy posted showed Lloyd deflecting "actual lightning" and you reply by saying cool, he might be able to keep up? That does make Lloyd an actual Lightning timer. As far as I'm concerned, That would make him faster than Link.

The only question now is Lloyd strong enough to get past Link's strength and durability? I don't know if he can when Link has naryu's love, and the golden gauntlets.

MooCowofJustice
Really, so the Triforce of Power grants different abilities the longer a person is in possession of it?

ScreamPaste
Blocking something < Deflecting it. Lloyd is not yet faster by feats.

TacDavey
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
1. Nah, Lightning moving at lightning speed is not exactly an assumption, particularly when the character has used full speed lightning consistently, and intentionally slowing down his own attack is sabotaging himself, which you cannot prove he did.

I talked about this in my last post, I don't know why you ignored it.

Linkownsyousobs also brought up a good point. It isn't real lightning, this has been established. You cannot simply say, "Ganon shoots lightning cuz he did it in other games."

I responded to that, now you need to respond to my refutation, not simply repeat yourself. That's how debates work, bro.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
2. You are speculating he's got a new, slower, attack, which he's using in preference to the better version we know he has, based solely on gameplay mechanics.

I'm saying he is using an attack that we see him use. AKA a magic ball he throws at you. Did you completely miss my whole last post, or is ignoring it part of your strategy?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
3. The only thing that suggests the lightning is moving slowly at all is a gameplay mechanic which you're clinging to.

The thing that suggests the MAGIC BALL is moving slowly is the fact that the magic ball is moving slowly. Again, you tossing in a slow down time assumption when one doesn't need to be there.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
4. Occam's razor*, when applied to lightning would indicate that it's moving at the speed of lightning. You keep citing that the attack is shaped like a ball. Well, the gameplay section is essentially tennis, what other shape could it take? Zeus' lightning takes this exact form 11 years later, when he and Kratos do something similar. Going to argue that's a slower attack Zeus invented on the spot to **** himself, too?

That was a horrible misuse of Occam's Razor. There is no argument about whether lightning moves at the speed of lightning or not. We are applying Occam's Razor to the two different possibilities I brought up in the last post. Occam's Razor supports mine, since it is the simpler explanation. Your only course of action now is to show that my explanation is impossible, cuz as long as it's possible, it's the simpler explanation, and thus the more logical. I'm waiting.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
5. Ganon's lightning is canonicly lightning speed, this is a lightning attack. Occam's razor, anyone? Your explanation requires a convoluted, made up on the spot, explanation for why Ganondorf uses a weaker attack in a serious situation. There is none.

No, my explanation provides a legitimate reason Ganon would use a "weaker" attack. And linkownsyousobs provided yet another.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So, to conclude, Link is stronger, more durable, and has the better reaction feat, you've posted no evidence Lloyd is strong enough to even damage Link. So, rather than trying to descredit a valid feat, how about posting some for Lloyd?

Actually, yes I have. You really need to pay better attention. I rejected your claim that Link is super durable, I rejected your claim he is super fast, and super strength alone does not give him the fight.

If you think my refutations to the above points were incorrect, you need to RESPOND TO THEM, not simply repeat yourself.

Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
Please stop bringing up Gannon shooting lightning in other games as proof that the electrical attack in OoT is Lightning, or Zues from God of War... Gannon isn't Zues.

alttp is supposed to be at the end of the series, while OoT is supposed to be the the prequel to the series.You seemed to ignore this last time so I thought I'd post it again. Nothing says that Gannon in OoT has all of his powers from other games. That attack isn't lightning, it just has the properties of electricity. It shocks you if you get hit.

The video the other guy posted showed Lloyd deflecting "actual lightning" and you reply by saying cool, he might be able to keep up? That does make Lloyd an actual Lightning timer. As far as I'm concerned, That would make him faster than Link.

The only question now is Lloyd strong enough to get past Link's strength and durability? I don't know if he can when Link has naryu's love, and the golden gauntlets.

Thank you. A voice of reason.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Blocking something < Deflecting it. Lloyd is not yet faster by feats.

Link only deflects it because he has the Master Sword. Lloyd did the same move Link did. He slashed the lightning attack with his sword. He didn't have a magic sword, though. His was normal.

ScreamPaste
You refuted nothing, I'm correcting you. Your "refutation" was essentially repeating yourself citing a gameplay mechanic.
You're ignoring it's a lightning attack, and there's no reason a lightning attack would be slow.


You mean the lightning bolt that was in Ganon's hand and crackles with electricity when it strikes you? It's lightning, you cannot hold this attack to a seperate standard from any other gameplay attack. Bullets commonly move slowly in videogames by comparison, especially in the 80's and 90's.

You clearly don't understand what "the simplest explanation is usually the best" means. Ganon's using a lightning attack, therefore ????. You cite the gameplay mechanics and come up with a theory? WRONG!


Rejecting a claim doesn't make the claim any less valid, ignoring feats won't make them go away, Link still has them. Link displays super durability and strength in a cutscene, and deals with lightning multiple times during his adventure.

I'll watch it again, but I didn't see him swing his sword at all due to the camera being angled to his back.

Nephthys
Unless it was ball lightning.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless it was ball lightning. There's nothing to support that it is, this is a nonsensical assertion.

ScreamPaste
Also, is anyone going to post another feat for Lloyd? Link wins until you do. no expression Being that he can't be hurt by someone without super human strength, and Lloyd will be one shotted by Link, who has gigajoule range strength.

Downplaying feats is not enough to give Lloyd the mathc.

Nephthys
It is lightning and it is a ball. What more support do you need? stick out tongue

MooCowofJustice
Sweet. Black hole making Ganondorf.

Nephthys
Oh, who caaaaaaaaaaaares!

edit: and i still have no idea what thats supposed to reference to btw.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
It is lightning and it is a ball. What more support do you need? stick out tongue How about an explanation for Ganondorf using a slowed down less effective attack on purpose? :P

Or evidence that the dev team even knows what it is. What other shape could a reflectable projectile take? This shape persists in modern gaming!Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Sweet. Black hole making Ganondorf. Also this. no expression

Nephthys
Um, no. no expression

Why the **** do I have to explain why something happens? All I have to do is prove that something happens, I don't have to speculate as to the purpose of it, postulate a freakin reason for it or conjure up an explanation from the developers on it. That has nothing to do with the goddamn feat. It. Happens. I have proven that it happens. If you want I can draw you a diagram of it happening. This is the only thing that should be valid for consideration.

You really want a freakin reason? PIS. Why the hell didn't Kain spam the **** out of his teleport in his fight with Raziel? PIS. Why the hell doesn't Sephiroth just immobilise the party with TK again in teh final fight? PIS. Why does Irenicus disintergrate Cowled wizards but not your party? PIS.

PIS. PIS. PI****ingS. That is the only reason I'm ever going to give you because I do not need to give you one. Period.



Explain this reference to me.

ScreamPaste
Except your entire stance is conjecture based on a gameplay representation. So, you do need a valid reason. Since the ball-shaped-projectile has been a stand in for everything from lightning to bullets to plasma to lasers since 1984 or something, and is still in use today.

It's still lightning, and Link still reflects it, and the devs still are unlikely to even know what ball-lightning is, since modern science doesn't understand it, and the game's from 1998.

MooCowofJustice
Wow. I've explained it twice. Did you even try to read them?

Nephthys
How is it conjecture? It is a ball. Fact. It is lightning (electricity). Fact. It is Ball Lightning. Fact. There is literally nothing except for bullshit speculation disproving these three things.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
How is it conjecture? It is a ball. Fact. It is lightning (electricity). Fact. It is Ball Lightning. Fact. There is literally nothing except for bullshit speculation disproving these three things. This is speculation because that's just a gameplay representation and Ganondorf has consistently used full speed lightning, including against Link. The only time it takes this form is when Link actually reflects it. IE, it's a gameplay mechanic.

There's nothing supporting that it is ball lightning, you're clinging to the gameplay mechanic.

Nephthys
The entire goddamn feat happens in gameplay. What representation do you want me to base my conclusion on, your mums!?

Seriously, how the **** else are we meant to judge this feat if not in gameplay? We might as well throw the entire thing away if thats your stance.




As I recall you still havn't actually posted a shred of evidence about this yet. The only things you could come up with was when he possessed someone and that he can make storm clouds.



It is a ball and it is lightning. There is nothing else we need supporting it.

@MooCow



I did, but I failed to see the logic behind, 'if ganon can use ball lightning he can use black holes.'

ScreamPaste
How about with Ganondorf's canon abilities in mind? Sort of like how bullets in games are often quite slow, but we know they're still bullets.

Aganihm, who was Ganon's weaker alter ego, not a possessed person, Four Swords games, which predate OoT, OoT itself, ect.


One explanation, one of the popular ones, for Ball lightning is small blackholes, Neph.

MooCowofJustice
Then you didn't read worth a shit. One of the Hypotheses (because nobody knows what the hell causes it anyway) requires the presence of a primordial black hole to create the phenomena of ball lightning. And these things are not just wherever Ganon and Link happen to find themselves. For them to be around every time, he'd have to create them.

Nephthys
No wait, let me see if I understand your logic correctly:

The attack being circular (i.e. a ball) and its movement speed are elements that occur within gameplay.
Gameplay is inadmissable as evidence.
Therefore I cannot use the fact that it is a ball or that it doesn't move anywhere even close to the speed of lightning as evidence of it being ball lightning as opposed to its more generic variety.

Ok, if that the case then:

Factors indicating it being lightning (it crackles and shit) only occur within gameplay.
Gameplay is inadmissable as evidence.
Therefore you cannot prove that it was even lightning in the first place.

And it gets better:

Ganon even using the attack is something that only happens within gameplay.
Gameplay is inadmissable as evidence.
Therefore they didn't actually fight at all, but rather sat around and played some Saduko instead.

Suddenly I understand everything. 'o'



Wow, I like how that actually happens on-screen. As opposed to Ganon just summoning the stuff out of thin air. I mean, its nice that Zeldas so damn scientific as to incorporate these complex theories into a world where trees can talk. I mean they've never bent the laws of physics even once. Toonforce? What the **** is that shit, eh?

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
No wait, let me see if I understand your logic correctly:

The attack being circular (i.e. a ball) and its movement speed are elements that occur within gameplay.
Gameplay is inadmissable as evidence.
Therefore I cannot use the fact that it is a ball or that it doesn't move anywhere even close to the speed of lightning as evidence of it being ball lightning as opposed to its more generic variety.

Ok, if that the case then:

Factors indicating it being lightning (it crackles and shit) only occur within gameplay.
Gameplay is inadmissable as evidence.
Therefore you cannot prove that it was even lightning in the first place.

And it gets better:

Ganon even using the attack is something that only happens within gameplay.
Gameplay is inadmissable as evidence.
Therefore they didn't actually fight at all, but rather sat around and played some Saduko instead.

Suddenly I understand everything. 'o' Oh look, a strawman argument.

Again, take the canon of the games into account and you get:
-Ganondorf uses full speed lightning, gameplay does not override canon.

Nephthys
No actually, that is literally what is happening. You are literally claiming that I can't support my theory because the evidence occurs within gameplay, whilst your own theories evidence also occurs within gameplay. So yeah, not really seeing how thats a strawman at all.

Prove its lightning-based at all.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, I like how that actually happens on-screen. As opposed to Ganon just summoning the stuff out of thin air. I mean, its nice that Zeldas so damn scientific as to incorporate these complex theories into a world where trees can talk. I mean they've never bent the laws of physics even once. Toonforce? What the **** is that shit, eh?

A primordial black hole would not be visible to the naked eye.

You're the fool that wants to explain it away as ball lightning. And now that we've decided to accept the possibility you ***** about the science of it?

Nephthys
Look, does it really matter? Wiki says that these 'primordial black holes' are so pathetically weak that if one travelled through earth at best it would upset a few nucleons. So yeah, I'm sure I'll be able to sleep at night by giving Ganon that mighty power. roll eyes (sarcastic)

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
No actually, that is literally what is happening. You are literally claiming that I can't support my theory because the evidence occurs within gameplay, whilst your own theories evidence also occurs within gameplay. So yeah, not really seeing how thats a strawman at all.

Prove its lightning-based at all.
No, I'm telling you the canon of the games includes full speed lightning, the gameplay appearance of an attack does not override this.

Are you actually going to provide anyg feats for Lloyd of just continually try to downplay the opposition? Seriously? Until feats are shown for Lloyd, Link wins. Plain and simple.

MooCowofJustice
Two black holes can come together and keep adding to the size of them. It doesn't take a large black hole to suck in a person. If I recall, a BH the size of a marble has the mass of Earth. That would do just fine.

Nephthys
So what you're saying is that in scenarios and scenes completely seperate from this one, lightning has been used.

Well woopdido. How does this have anything to do ith this scene?

Prove that the attack was lightning-based or kindly drop the point.



At what point did you fall under the misrepresentation that I was arguing Lloyd vs Link? My argument has always been concerned with that one feat.



Well since there were no affects of a black hole present during the fight then we can gather that either Ganon isn't using black holes (he might, idk, be using magic perhaps?) can't create enough of an effect to do this or just isn't skilled enough to.

Basically he hasn't done shit with black holes so it's pretty useless giving them to him.

MooCowofJustice
There wouldn't be any effects of the primordial black hole that would have to be present. But Ganon can make good use of the power in other fights by combining multiples. Then there would be visible effects.

You still don't seem to be reading.

ScreamPaste
Watch video again, observe lightning in Ganon's hand.

I don't always herp, but when I do, I derp.

THEN YOU ARE AS USELESS AS YOUR DEAD SIDEKICK!

linkownsyousobs
Well at least now your using a game that comes before OoT to back up if Gannon from OoT could use lightning. The only problem is, that the attack in the final battle isn't actual Lightning. It's an electrical attack.

Also... http://www.zeldawiki.org/Trident
From what I read, the trident gave him the power to shoot lightning, and a few other powers. The trident never made an appearance in OoT, so I doubt Gannon would still have those powers the trident gave him at the time. Well actually Phantom Gannon has one now that I think about it, but it was never said that was the same trident. Also note, that I never played The second four swords game, so I don't know much about it. I just used what research I could find. What is Gannon able to do in that game before he gets the trident?



Ball Lightning isn't exactly a proper term for it. An electric ball fits it better. It's sad that you still fail to see the difference between the two.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Really, so the Triforce of Power grants different abilities the longer a person is in possession of it?

I never said that, you did, but if you see a character do something in a game that comes later in the series, you can't say they can do it in a game that comes before it. Especially when they show no evidence of having that power in the game.

Originally posted by TacDavey

Linkownsyousobs also brought up a good point. It isn't real lightning, this has been established. You cannot simply say, "Ganon shoots lightning cuz he did it in other games."

Thank you. A voice of reason.


Your welcome. At least you understand the difference between electricity and lightning. Another point I brought out when this argument came up in a different thread is that the simple fact that Gannon threw the attack proves it isn't going Lightning speed. Lightning is shot, not thrown. no expression

ScreamPaste
I have a question, LOYS, what is electricity that passes through the air, and how fast does it move? Edit, and the trident /does/ appear in OoT, phantom Ganon and Ganon boss battles.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Go back and read your own post, you used the term "trust me" and insisted on what the developers would do, and still are doing so "if an attack was that fast the gameplay MUST show it!!", no, it must not do anything.

Because you said the developers slowed that attack. You were using that as defense to prove the attack is actually faster when in reality it isn't. You insisted on what the developers would do by saying 'they slowed a ball for the players'. I simply said there's nothing to suggest they did. The fight takes place in real time as far as everything goes.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganondorf's lightning attacks are full speed in canon, this is a lightning attack. ????? Profit? ****, the underpants gnomes could figure this one out. no expression You are consistently not only citing gameplay mechanics, but a LACK of a gameplay mechanic. Does a lack of a breath bar in the NSMBWii mean Mario can breathe underwater? no expression

Lloyd blocked, IE, for all we know he stood infront of the bolt and tanked it. Link legitimately sent lightning bolts back at Ganondorf multiple times, by striking it as it came at him, this is a superior feat. And it was not a magic ball designed to be reflected, this is a property specificly attributed to the master sword which has been in use since 1991.

We see the feat on screen, we know that it's lightning, we know how fast Ganon's lightning is. Link has a feat. Get over it, and bring some feats for Lloyd.

Non Sequitur. Your conclusion is nowhere implied by its premises. You're saying that a floating magic ball which features sparks it is actually a lightning bolt and that is moving at lightning speed. And you say it as if I would have to accept it. Then according to you 'Ganon used lightning before, this is actually the same attack, but it looks slower just because they made it for the players'. If they had full lightning attacks in older games and players still played the games without problems, then why you say they slowed this one for the players? And yeah... I am using gameplay when I'm actually supporting a feat outside of it, on the other hand you present a move that comes directly from a gameplay fight, but you're not using gameplay. Great, I get that.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Because you said the developers slowed that attack. You were using that as defense to prove the attack is actually faster when in reality it isn't. You insisted on what the developers would do by saying 'they slowed a ball for the players'. I simply said there's nothing to suggest they did. The fight takes place in real time as far as everything goes.



Non Sequitur. Your conclusion is nowhere implied by its premises. You're saying that a floating magic ball which features sparks it is actually a lightning bolt and that is moving at lightning speed. And you say it as if I would have to accept it. Then according to you 'Ganon used lightning before, this is actually the same attack, but it looks slower just because they made it for the players'. If they had full lightning attacks in older games and players still played the games without problems, then why you say they slowed this one for the players? And yeah... I am using gameplay when I'm actually supporting a feat outside of it, on the other hand you present a move that comes directly from a gameplay fight, but you're not using gameplay. Great, I get that. mariofacepalm Greiver mah boi, allow me to explain.

Ganon's lightning attacks are at full speed.

Ganon used lightning.

For lightning to move slower than electricity through air, it would require Ganondorf to intentionally slow it down. He has no reason to do so.

The only time the attack is ever slow is when the player is supposed to reflect it.

Link canonicly did so to complete OoT.

The above are facts, put them together. Herp.

Now, are you done attempting to downplay Link's feats? Are you ever going to post some for Lloyd who until you provide feats cannot hurt Link, or survive a hit from him? All he's done so far is display that hew can block electricity. Link can deflect it. Kool.

Link also has gigajoule level strength and durability. Advantage: Link.

linkownsyousobs
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Watch video again, observe lightning in Ganon's hand.


What video are you talking about? The one where Gannon charges a yellow ball and hits young Link at point blank range and then evaporates into little balls of light? How does this video prove his attack was Lightning? Enlighten me. erm

Let me also note that when I was researching Gannon, I found out that in other games he is also known for attacking with fireballs and balls of light, and that his attack on young Link in OoT is described as dark magic, not Lightning.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I have a question, LOYS, what is electricity that passes through the air, and how fast does it move? Edit, and the trident /does/ appear in OoT, phantom Ganon and Ganon boss battles.

You seriously can't believe that an electrical attack has the same travel speed as a lightning bolt. As far as it's molecular structure and properties, yes, they're the same, but an electric attack, and a Lightning bolt are two different things.
To answer your question, in this case, its a magic electrical ball that was thrown at Link, and it depends on how hard Gannon can throw it. stick out tongue

When does Gannon have it in the boss battle? I only remember Phantom Gannon wielding a trident in OoT, and I'm not even sure if it's the same one. Do u know what happens to the trident at the end of FSA?

Also, I'm done with this for now, I'm gonna play XBL while I have the chance to tonight. I'll check the thread later on.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
mariofacepalm Greiver mah boi, allow me to explain.

Ganon's lightning attacks are at full speed.

Ganon used lightning.

For lightning to move slower than electricity through air, it would require Ganondorf to intentionally slow it down. He has no reason to do so.

The only time the attack is ever slow is when the player is supposed to reflect it.

Link canonicly did so to complete OoT.

The above are facts, put them together. Herp.

Now, are you done attempting to downplay Link's feats? Are you ever going to post some for Lloyd who until you provide feats cannot hurt Link, or survive a hit from him? All he's done so far is display that hew can block electricity. Link can deflect it. Kool.

Link also has gigajoule level strength and durability. Advantage: Link.

Uhh, right. Except they aren't lightning bolts.

Once again, you're using developers intentions as defense. As I said before, I see no reason to think that the developers had to intentionally slow down the attack for the players. There is no indication of such, there's no factual evidence indicating what you suggest. That fight takes place in real time as far as everything goes. In fact, I'm not even using any argument to combat yours, as I do not need to. I mean... I don't have to prove that a magical floating sphere which moves at normal speed is a magical floating sphere which moves at normal speed.

YOU must back up your claims. You must prove that a magical sphere that floats through air and can be reflected back and forth by sword's swings is actually a lightning bolt that moves so fast that is not even visible. The burden of proof is on you. And for the record, just because something has sparks effects placed on it, does not necessarily means it will move a lightning speed.

Anyway. As for your point concerning other games having lightning attacks, it does not serve to validate your stance. I reiterate, if they had lightning attacks in previous games, and players still played without problems, then I cannot understand your concept of having this game slowed down for the players. The answer to this is actually easy, they aren't the same attacks. Furthermore, Tac mentioned there is an enemy called 'Barinade' which actually uses electric attacks in the game, but according to you and for some odd reason electric attacks became floating spheres in this fight.

Tac, Neph, linkownsyoursobs and I gave enough reasons to invalidate your points in previous pages. But instead of responding to the current refutations, the only thing you've been doing is bringing up them again. That is usually called argumentum ad nauseam. Trying to prove something by stating it again and again. But repeating yourself, won't make your argument more nor less valid than before.

And we're not ''downplaying'' anything, why everyone gets mad and brings up that term when someone is simply disagreeing with an argument? Saying 'Link wins' does not make it be, that is NOT how debates works, ScreamPaste. You gave reasons in past pages to think Link was probably strong enough to be able defeat Lloyd, or at least to assume he could do it. But we all gave more than enough reasons to think otherwise, mostly Tac in his first post page number 5. You know, the one you evidently failed to refute. And that's still ignoring the fact that you're using a gameplay fight to draw a ''feat'' from it.

Nephthys
Only if you watch it and observe it being round and not being as fast as lightning.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yaf75bpoW_o/SlD2coE46WI/AAAAAAAAAlk/kj1X08u8ihg/s400/derp.jpg



MY DEAD SIDEKICKS BODY SHIELDS ME FROM YOUR CRITICISM! PEW PEW, BOUNCED OFF THE DEFLECTOR DISH MOTHER****ER!



Well, except he's never shown the ability or power to do that at all. Just because someone has a computer doesn't mean he hack NASA, and just becuase Ganon might use black holes in the creation of his ball lightning, which you have no way of proving that he did btw, doesn't mean that he knows how to combine multiple blackholes to create a singularity (or whatever). Its not like he's a physicist or anything.

Firstly you have no way of proving he does use black holes (by your own admission, it is just a hypothesis, not scientific fact), and secondly even if he does he hasn't shown the ability with that power to actually do anything with it beyond making ball lightning, which again, we don't know that he did.

Is that enough reading? erm

MooCowofJustice
Indeed I don't have a way to prove it. The black hole theory for Ball Lightning is just one of many hypotheses. All of which have a similar base and result if applied. They either do not apply to the situation Ganon uses this attack in, or they would require him to have a power we didn't know about to perform.

TacDavey
Scream:

This is becoming more of the same, so instead of having a huge response I'm going to simplify the argument.

There are two possibilities for Ganon's attack

1. It is a lightning bolt that looks like a ball for some reason, you claim gameplay, and it is moving at super speeds but we don't notice because right as he throws it time itself slows down to allow us to see it even though there is no evidence of this and it cannot really be proven at all.

OR

2. It's a magic energy ball that has electricity elements to it.

Occam's Razor states that number 2 is the more logical as it is the simpler explanation. Your only course of action is now to show that point 2 is IMPOSSIBLE. Because as long as it's a possible explanation it is the simpler one and thus the more logical. I'm waiting.

TheAuraAngel
evillaugh

Oh this thread is giving me giggles.

Edit: The ball of lightning/electricity/saliva is obviously magic guys. lol at primordial black holes.

MooCowofJustice
A magic attack appearing much slower in gameplay than it can be and has been seen in cut scene. You're just as interesting as the rest of them.

I agree, lol. I wouldn't have ever talked about it, but I had to because of this ridiculous accusation of ball lightning.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
A magic attack appearing much slower in gameplay than it can be and has been seen in cut scene.

That has been addressed in page number 5. Please respond to our refutations, guys.

MooCowofJustice
There is no refutation for the truth, my friend. Scenario even posted the video of it.

GrieverSquall
I know he did. I have responded to it. It's on page number 5.

MooCowofJustice
Oh. In that case, we're saying it was slowed down so the player can react to it. Didn't really read much after that. Gotta run. Maybe later.

Nephthys
Lol, you do know what magic is right?

BloodRain
Will try not to say much on this, dont want one side running off again. Alot of the arguments are clutching to a strawman. ''You think its ball lightning so Ganon can create black holes.'' ''You're trying to say Dorf sabotaged himself if you think the attack is slower.'' No ones saying any of this.

Want to bring up the 'used it before/cant just get new powers' part. OoT pre-dates all other games, unless MC if you follow that idea, so bringing up him doing it in a later game is pointless, and as Scenario displayed in that clip Dorf does have other similar attacks. From the same game no less:
v3FSsNA78iI
(PS being a few feet from him and the flash its hard to tell if it was fast or not.)
UK5tjyp8nEc
^One has him charging darkness to form a light orb, the other has electricity to do the same. Figured Scene would have picked up on that. The attack used later is a different one OR this attack became the electric one, and that would take away the notion of lightning speed. Both ways speak against the speed wanted.

Unless theres a good, solid reason its hard to say it is 'cause it is. Even then the person cant always be a lightning timer, its the reason the weakest pokemon/humans or characters in The Avatar do it with speed and reactions well below sonic speeds.


OH! No ones brought up the pacing. Throughout OoT and TP both Link's shown human speed and human reactions. Nothing more, and sometimes less. (Yes, I've got some vids to back this up is they're needed/wanted) Now why is it to be believed that someone with human speeds for 98% of the game would suddenly jump up to lighting speeds with no power boost, enhancement or reason? Make sense of it will ya.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
A magic attack appearing much slower in gameplay than it can be and has been seen in cut scene. You're just as interesting as the rest of them.

I agree, lol. I wouldn't have ever talked about it, but I had to because of this ridiculous accusation of ball lightning.

Magic is the term people use to call someting that can't be explained by science. It's prevelant in tons of fiction, Zelda of course being no exception. Scientifically, I doubt you could explain Nayru's love, which is why it's magic.

I've told both LOYS and Scream to use the cutscene to determine the actual speed of the ball. It just so happens that the cutscene kind sucks in that regard.

Case and point: The developers of the game had Ganondorf using a magical ball of lightning/electricity/whatever. They most likely didn't put thought into it's actual speed and the physics behind in. I doubt they care. They'd be more concerned with making the game playable. So until proven otherwise, the feat is not worth pages of debates.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by BloodRain
(PS being a few feet from him and the flash its hard to tell if it was fast or not.)

I've responded to that video back in page number 5, but these guys just like to ignore the opposition's arguments. In fact, I've said basically the same, with the exception of the 'flash' part.

I've said that when Ganon raises his hand to charge his magic, it's a first person view. And when the magic gets bigger on screen, it is indication that Ganon released the spell and is approaching. So yeah, we can see how fast it moved. And taking into account that Link was pretty near, it is plausible to assume that said spell wasn't moving at some incredible speeds.

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Magic is the term people use to call someting that can't be explained by science. It's prevelant in tons of fiction, Zelda of course being no exception. Scientifically, I doubt you could explain Nayru's love, which is why it's magic.

I've told both LOYS and Scream to use the cutscene to determine the actual speed of the ball. It just so happens that the cutscene kind sucks in that regard.

Case and point: The developers of the game had Ganondorf using a magical ball of lightning/electricity/whatever. They most likely didn't put thought into it's actual speed and the physics behind in. I doubt they care. They'd be more concerned with making the game playable. So until proven otherwise, the feat is not worth pages of debates.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dsnRysafcSw/TLYks_UgM9I/AAAAAAAACXU/Pl43iJdnZAA/s1600/OrsonWellsClapping.gif

thumb up

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Nephthys
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dsnRysafcSw/TLYks_UgM9I/AAAAAAAACXU/Pl43iJdnZAA/s1600/OrsonWellsClapping.gif

thumb up says the guy who showed up to do nothing but have pages of debates over the feat. >|

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I've responded to that video back in page number 5, but these guys just like to ignore the opposition's arguments. In fact, I've said basically the same, with the exception of the 'flash' part.

I've said that when Ganon raises his hand to charge his magic, it's a first person view. And when the magic gets bigger on screen, it is indication that Ganon released the spell and is approaching. So yeah, we can see how fast it moved. And taking into account that Link was pretty near, it is plausible to assume that said spell wasn't moving at some incredible speeds. We never see the attack travelling in a cutscene. no expression

Nephthys
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
says the guy who showed up to do nothing but have pages of debates over the feat. >|

I know right! ^_^

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Uhh, right. Except they aren't lightning bolts.

Once again, you're using developers intentions as defense. As I said before, I see no reason to think that the developers had to intentionally slow down the attack for the players. There is no indication of such, there's no factual evidence indicating what you suggest. That fight takes place in real time as far as everything goes. In fact, I'm not even using any argument to combat yours, as I do not need to. I mean... I don't have to prove that a magical floating sphere which moves at normal speed is a magical floating sphere which moves at normal speed.

YOU must back up your claims. You must prove that a magical sphere that floats through air and can be reflected back and forth by sword's swings is actually a lightning bolt that moves so fast that is not even visible. The burden of proof is on you. And for the record, just because something has sparks effects placed on it, does not necessarily means it will move a lightning speed.

Anyway. As for your point concerning other games having lightning attacks, it does not serve to validate your stance. I reiterate, if they had lightning attacks in previous games, and players still played without problems, then I cannot understand your concept of having this game slowed down for the players. The answer to this is actually easy, they aren't the same attacks. Furthermore, Tac mentioned there is an enemy called 'Barinade' which actually uses electric attacks in the game, but according to you and for some odd reason electric attacks became floating spheres in this fight.

Tac, Neph, linkownsyoursobs and I gave enough reasons to invalidate your points in previous pages. But instead of responding to the current refutations, the only thing you've been doing is bringing up them again. That is usually called argumentum ad nauseam. Trying to prove something by stating it again and again. But repeating yourself, won't make your argument more nor less valid than before.

And we're not ''downplaying'' anything, why everyone gets mad and brings up that term when someone is simply disagreeing with an argument? Saying 'Link wins' does not make it be, that is NOT how debates works, ScreamPaste. You gave reasons in past pages to think Link was probably strong enough to be able defeat Lloyd, or at least to assume he could do it. But we all gave more than enough reasons to think otherwise, mostly Tac in his first post page number 5. You know, the one you evidently failed to refute. And that's still ignoring the fact that you're using a gameplay fight to draw a ''feat'' from it. Cite developer intentions in my post?

I cite
1. Canon
2. Canon

no expression Your "refutation" is nothing but denial and speculation based on gameplay speed as I keep telling you. Gameplay speed is NOT representative of actual speed 90% of the time in games.

I've already proven this point. Ganon's lightning attacks are always full speed unless Link needs to reflect them, ergo: Ganon canonicly has full speed lightning. Therefore, when he uses a lightning attack ---??? Fill in the blanks, boyo. You have not refuted this point, come back with something viable.

Holy shit, dude, reading comprehension. no expression You mean the times where Link didn't need to reflect them? Link dodged Barinade's lightning. He reflected Ganondorf's. It would really help if you'd played the game.

And you do the same, repeat yourself, rephrasing the same dead, invalid, gameplay points over, and over. There is no argument here, you cite gameplay, I cite canon. You claim Ganon was using a different lightning attack than his full speed one, you need to prove that, which you can't, and explain why Ganon would use an inferior attack on purpose, which you can't, AND is extremely convoluted, Occam's razor: The attack we see is lightning, ----> ???? Fill it in again.



I'm not claiming Link wins, I'm telling you that until Lloyd has feats, Link wins. IE, go get some feats rather than sit around trying to disregard Link's. We know Link's speed, strength, and durability.

Lloyd so far has
-A reaction feat.
-Has no strength feat to harm Link
-No durability feat to survive a hit from Link

Go get feats, or concede the argument.


I responded to Tac's post, and guess what? It was more of the same. He looked at the gameplay decided it was > the canon.

His argument summed up is: The gameplay attack is in ball form, time appears to be moving at full speed (In Zelda games it always is, even when time is slowed, there is no slomo), Ganon TOTALLY must have made up and used an inferior attack on the spot!

Wtf? No. Go get feats for Lloyd to support that he can win, or concede. THAT is how a debate works. You do not sit around all day plugging your ears and covering your eyes perpetually ignoring things you don't like.

TacDavey
Hey hey. Let's not forget about me.

"His argument summed up is: The gameplay attack is in ball form, time appears to be moving at full speed (In Zelda games it always is, even when time is slowed, there is no slomo), Ganon TOTALLY must have made up and used an inferior attack on the spot!"

This is totally NOT my argument summed up. I summed up my argument in my last post. Link's "lightning timer" ability has been refuted from a NUMBER of different angles. It's over.

Occam's Razor is still on my side at the moment. Read my last post.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TacDavey
Hey hey. Let's not forget about me.

"His argument summed up is: The gameplay attack is in ball form, time appears to be moving at full speed (In Zelda games it always is, even when time is slowed, there is no slomo), Ganon TOTALLY must have made up and used an inferior attack on the spot!"

This is totally NOT my argument summed up. I summed up my argument in my last post. Link's "lightning timer" ability has been refuted from a NUMBER of different angles. It's over.

Occam's Razor is still on my side at the moment. Read my last post. Occam's razor has nothing in it about convoluted theories. no expression So, no, it isn't. Canon is on my side. Got any more feats for Lloyd yet or is this thread over?

TheGoldenSpy
Either way Link Defeated Barinade, who also actually used full speed forked lighting. Link would have needed inhuman reaction abilities to deal with his attacks aswell. It's like a guy with a sword defeating a guy with a gun. The sword user would need to be able to deal with bullets.

TheAuraAngel
Occam's razor is actually on the side of my theory, "It's a ****ing video game and I seriously doubt the devs knew what a ****ing primordial black hole is."

Cutscene speed>

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