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Hopefully the moderator will allow this because both characters are seen in novels and animae (HALO).

Master Chief attacks Sauron (with the one ring) on the slopes of Mt. Doom in full view of the Army of Men and Elves. In order to keep it even, Master Chief is only given an Elite Energy Blade and no shields on his armor. Both do not have a clue of the others combat abilities.

So has Sauron met his match? Or does he curbstomp him?

Side Note:
This most badass animae and gaming video I have ever seen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCpMz-p8NPU

Considering ive only watched Halo Legends for feats for Chief, id say it depends. If Chief gets in close BEFORE getting ***** slapped by Saurons mace, then he wins. But i think one hit from that mace will kill him, armor or no.

Has Master Chief been in an actual anime film?

There was a series of halo shorts but it wasn't a film. so the answer is no.

dadudemon corrected my earlier decision.

This thread is hereby re-opened.

Originally posted by Impediment
dadudemon corrected my earlier decision.

This thread is hereby re-opened. +

Definitely wasn't correcting you, sir.

I was just pointing out that Master Chief showed up in 2 of the short films and said that it was up to you if you allowed short films in the MVF, to count.

But, I believe I got my answer because you re-opened.







That said, Master Chief wins this, easily, because he has an energy sword and his "plain" armor will be impossible to cut through, by Sauron.

Energy swords slice through the Mark VI armor like butter and the Mark VI armor can stand up to several high caliber rounds before giving way. Additionally, John-117 weighs over 1000 lbs in his armor and is tall enough to not be completely eclipsed by Sauron's size. Additionally, John-117 is stronger than an Ent, more agile than a a High Elf, and more durable than any single character in the movies (surviving atmosphereic re-entry in a pod, which would have so many G's that it would splatter the unmodified regular humans.



Strength: Gotta got to Master Chief.

Durability: Definitely Master Chief. Sauron has nothing that will hurt Master Chief.

Intelligence: Definitely Sauron as he is a Demi-God...but he was outsmarted by clueless, plain, and kind hobbits...so he's book smart but is pretty dang stupid in strategy.

Weapons: Master Chief. He can make mince-meat out of Sauron, very quickly, because his energy sword is JUST like a lightsaber: super heated gases contained in a plasma blade force field type of thingie. In fact, the description of an energy sword is so much like a lightsabers that you might as well call it a fancy lightsaber without a focusing crystal. It should cut right through Sauron's big arse sword, like butter.

I say Sauron. Because f*ck John, that's why.

Lol yeah Master Chief destroys, giving him the energy sword is overkill, maybe if he was going at Sauron with his bare fists it would be slightly more even, but still I think Chief would take it.

Master Chief was dropped from several kilometers into the ground and was unharmed.

Sauron's mace will do **** nothing to Master Chief.

MC rips Sauron's arm off, thus removing the ring from him.

anyone have vids of master chief in action

Sauron wins. Because he is cool like that. He beats him down with his magical mace powers.

Yeah, like he did to Isuildor.

dohoho

Sauron only used his Mega B*tch Slap attack there. It's not a KO move like Mace Hammer.

All I can see is Sauron doing his "hoo buja monkeeeeey!" thing that he did right after his finger was cut off.


I'll see if I can find master chief in one of his films doing stuff.


Here's some awesome vids of John at work.


t1L9GMm3AyE


Here's a Spartan-II showing how strong they are...and it's a female Spartan.

M2zCrGs1hyo

Edit - The above vid does not show her throw a re-entry vessel like...30 meters. Dang. Well, she throws a re-entry vessel really far...n'stuff. She's not as uber as Master Chief, though, as Master Chief is as far above that Spartan-II as she is above the other elite units that accompanied her on that mission.

Actually, I dont think it said what type of spartan she was. I was of the mind she was a spartan III. And not 30 meters, like, maybe 15 or 20. Impressive nonetheless. Chief will win if he gets close, but one hit from that mace will f**k Chief up, badly. Take that brute hitting that spartan, take half, add that, then hit him with it. Thats quite a bit of force hitting him, itll at least crush his rib cage and put bone splinters into his major organs. She survived maybe 5 minutes or less after that shot, and she couldnt move. Thats all it takes

Besides, if im right it was pretty much a suprise attack with only 5 spartans, and John really didnt do much, he lost to that Elite i think....

Been a while since i watched Legends

The gravity hammer can send a multi-ton vehicle flying through the air with a single hit.

Getting hurt from being hit with that is not a low point for durability.

Oh no, its a massive boost to Chiefs impressiveocity for a spartan being able to survive a hit from one. Problem is, she couldnt move, she could barely speak, and she lived for maybe 5 minutes. Sauron was tossing those armored Numenoreans and elves around like ragdolls. His mace is about the LOTR equivalent of a gravity hammer imo.

And while yes, he is slow, that thing is huge. He has a longer reach, so if he manages to hit Chief, it aint gonna look good for Chief.

Knocking 150 pound people into the air < knocking vehicles into the air.

By far, my man.

Depends, if your throwin around a Prius........


Anyways, its WAY more than 150 pounds. Think around 250-300 pound Numenoreans encased in 60-100 pounds of steel. Thats quite a bit.

Im giving the description from the books, not sure if thats allowed, since they were never described in the books and never shown next to anything other than each other.

Numenoreans are taller than your average man, and posses strength and skill far surpassing the others. They range from around 6'8-7'5

Elendil The Tall was 7'11 tall. They were all wearing plate armor and chain mail, with their weights, they weigh about as much as a small car.

My source for that is the Silmarillion.

But yeah, they are by no means light

Originally posted by Pwned
Actually, I dont think it said what type of spartan she was. I was of the mind she was a spartan III. And not 30 meters, like, maybe 15 or 20. Impressive nonetheless. Chief will win if he gets close, but one hit from that mace will f**k Chief up, badly. Take that brute hitting that spartan, take half, add that, then hit him with it. Thats quite a bit of force hitting him, itll at least crush his rib cage and put bone splinters into his major organs. She survived maybe 5 minutes or less after that shot, and she couldnt move. Thats all it takes

Besides, if im right it was pretty much a suprise attack with only 5 spartans, and John really didnt do much, he lost to that Elite i think....

Been a while since i watched Legends

It did not need to be stated which Spartan version she was: she was in the Mark VI armor. That particular design was worn exclusively by the Spartan II spartans.

Additionally:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Cal-141

She's a Spartan II, as fact.



And the mace? It wouldn't even come close to the power that that Brute had.

Why?


Because Brutes are far thicker and stronger than a human. Sauron was a large human, in the film, but there's no way he even remotely approaches 1500 lbs. His mace isn't anywhere near as massive as that giant gravity-hammer, either. The "handle" on the mace doesn't even come close, either. So there's these factors:

Lever arm: far longer on the gravity-hammer for the Brute.

Mass: The gravity hammer is many times more massive than the mace.

Strength of the user: The brute is obviously much stronger.

Speed: the Brute can obviously swing his much larger hammer much faster.

What happened to the Spartan II? She died from her wounds, but lived after the first blow due to her awesome armor and super-human strength and durability.


Additionally, Brutes are even stronger than it would appear: they come from a planet that has twice the gravity of Earth's. This is why they are so much stronger and faster, for their size, than if you enlarged a human to their size.


John didn't lose to any elites. He kicked ass an took names.


Originally posted by Pwned
Depends, if your throwin around a Prius........


Anyways, its WAY more than 150 pounds. Think around 250-300 pound Numenoreans encased in 60-100 pounds of steel. Thats quite a bit.

Im giving the description from the books, not sure if thats allowed, since they were never described in the books and never shown next to anything other than each other.

Numenoreans are taller than your average man, and posses strength and skill far surpassing the others. They range from around 6'8-7'5

Elendil The Tall was 7'11 tall. They were all wearing plate armor and chain mail, with their weights, they weigh about as much as a small car.

My source for that is the Silmarillion.

But yeah, they are by no means light


Over 1000lbs is much greater than 400lbs. And do not remember Sauron knocking around anyone but humans and elves.

Keep in mind that she did not flatten to the ground, like any human or elf would have done under such a blow. She acted as if she was just punched with a haymaker: not a giant gravity hammer blow.

And, I think the descriptions should be allowed as long as they don't contradict the movies.

I never saw a Numenorean get smacked aorund by Sauron in the film.

Edit - Forgot to note the even if she were a Spartan-III, that would not help your case to downplay John: the Spartan-IIIs were smaller and weaker than the Spartan-IIs. They are a cheaper and lower quality version of the Spartan-IIs.

The Noble Team from Reach where Spartan III's, and look how badass they were.

And that chick, while a Spartan was more of a scientist than a warrior if I remember correctly. Chief could take a direct hit from a Grav Hammer, kick ass, then ignore the injury till it heals....while kicking more ass and having that weird relationship of his with Cortana.....AND understanding Gravemind.

Originally posted by KingD19
The Noble Team from Reach where Spartan III's, and look how badass they were.

And that chick, while a Spartan was more of a scientist than a warrior if I remember correctly. Chief could take a direct hit from a Grav Hammer, kick ass, then ignore the injury till it heals....while kicking more ass and having that weird relationship of his with Cortana.....AND understanding Gravemind.

Indeed.

Master Chief is >>>>>>>>>>> all other Spartan IIs.

He really is, that's why he was made the squad leader of his group. If you read the graphic novel, he's scary with how badass he is.

I remember a line from somewhere from Dr. Halsey saying that Six was the only other Spartan to be classified as "hyper-lethal", with John being the first.

"Noble Six. The team's most recent addition.... Hyper-lethal: there's only one other Spartan with that rating..."

"Six has made entire militia groups disappear."

Yeah, he was. Six's entire profile had been blacklined, but Noble 1 found out about him anyway. He was basically Master Chief Lite. He made entire militia groups disappear, took down whole organizations by himself, the whole 9.

And once again I say, he was still no Master Chief, lol.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sauron was a large human

I never saw a Numenorean get smacked aorund by Sauron in the film.


Pretty damn sure Sauron isn't human.

Also, have you seen the first movie? In the very start of the movie there is a little bit of Numenoreans getting their ass kicked.

With that aside I say that John rapes.

I have said that Chief wins as long as he avoids the mace


Which even I know he would, hes a bit more nimble than a heavily armored 7'11 guy thats running straight at him


Also, how do you distiguish between the armors? Ive never been much of a HALO universe fan, mainly the games

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
Pretty damn sure Sauron isn't human.

I edited my post from "humanoid" to "human" as he's shaped JUST like a human, but larger. The same as master chief.

I changed it because Elites are "humanoid" but Sauron does not look like a Sangheili (The name of the species that Elites are.)

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
Also, have you seen the first movie? In the very start of the movie there is a little bit of Numenoreans getting their ass kicked.

Yes I have and I still don't remember those bitches getting knocked about.

Additionally:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Over 1000lbs is much greater than 400lbs.


On top of that, a Spartan II that was definitely not as leet as John-117, did not get sent flying or was smashed to pieces by a blow from a hammer that delivers many many times more force than the Mace.

Originally posted by Pwned
Also, how do you distiguish between the armors? Ive never been much of a HALO universe fan, mainly the games

You have to look at the artwork and read the descriptions. I don't think the Wiki is good enough.

It also helps if you can read it and look at it once and retain the information for regurgitation, later.

Ahh ok then



Anyways, those are NOT men, they are Numenoreans, come DIRECTLY from Numenor.....

Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion, as well as all the others, were born on Numenor, but were part of the faithful that escaped

Originally posted by Pwned
Anyways, those are NOT men, they are Numenoreans, come DIRECTLY from Numenor.....

Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion, as well as all the others, were born on Numenor, but were part of the faithful that escaped

And Isildur's character is Harry Sinclair and he's 6'1", not 7 feet tall like some have stated (was that you?)

Cause, if he was that tall, he'd be about a foot shorter than Sauron, which is not the case. They are a good 2 feet shorter.

Edit - Also, we don't know for sure how tall Sauron was, but we can guess from Tolkein's letter 246. "The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic." I'm thinking he was about the same size as Elendil, in the books, but Elendil and co were made to be standard human sized in the movies and Sauron around 8 feet.

In the movies, yes, he was about 8 feet tall.

Im running the sizes off the books, as it would be unfeasible to make them correct sizes.

In the BOOKS, Elendil was 7'11 and Sauron around 10 feet or so, considering he was standing next to really tall guys

lol at at Sauron being a human. He is a maia, literally a demi-god or fallen angel.

As for his mace... The weight really doesn't matter as he clearly is using magic hence the flashes of light and why dozens of men go flying in one swing.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The gravity hammer can send a multi-ton vehicle flying through the air with a single hit.

Getting hurt from being hit with that is not a low point for durability.

Does it do this in the movie?

What's that about the Last Alliance Men not being Numenorean? They so totally are.

Originally posted by ares834
lol at at Sauron being a human. He is a maia, literally a demi-god or fallen angel.


Originally posted by dadudemon
I edited my post from "humanoid" to "human" as he's shaped JUST like a human, but larger. The same as master chief.

I changed it because Elites are "humanoid" but Sauron does not look like a Sangheili (The name of the species that Elites are.)


Additionally, Demi-god was not stated in the movie.


Originally posted by ares834
As for his mace... The weight really doesn't matter as he clearly is using magic hence the flashes of light and why dozens of men go flying in one swing.

Let's not go with "dozens". Let's go with 4-6.

No, not 4-6

It really was about a dozen, he had a HUGE reach, and a fairly wide arc

Originally posted by Pwned
No, not 4-6

It really was about a dozen, he had a HUGE reach, and a fairly wide arc

I just watched the vid. It literally varies from the smallest, 4, to 6, the greatest.


And, those men were men. They were not 7 foot tall Nummies. No where does it say they were Nums. This is the MVF.


Regardless, the Nummies are flies to Master Chief and his much stronger body, bones, muscles, etc. Even his reflexes are 300 (unsure) times faster than a humans. Additionally, the suit that he wears would destroy the bones of a human. So, the Nums (n the books), are around the same stature as Master Chief, they would turn to pudding inside that suit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Additionally, Demi-god was not stated in the movie.

I don't recall the movie stating he was anything else either. However, one can assume from his titanic size that he not human or elf.

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
I don't recall the movie stating he was anything else either. However, one can assume from his titanic size that he not human or elf.

We can assume, though, that he's shaped just like a human...just bigger (even then, ther are humans that appear to be around his size...they are just anomalies.)

Is that really the way we are going with this? That is honestly the stupidest shit ever. I guess Master Chief isn't a spartan 3 as it isn't stated in the movie...

He is stated to be a Spartan, however.Wither he's a 2 or a 3 or a 50 is irrelevant as the differences between Spartans are never explained in the movies.

So a spartan is just a normal human then. At least according to MVF rules, nothing special about them.

Spartans are humans. They're humans that have been altered to possess super human attributes. These super human attributes have been shown within the movies.

C'mon, man.

Nah normal humans set in super suits that can tank normal hammer attacks...

John-117 is a Spartan II, it's been stated since he was created, in every book and game and comic. And in Legends he was leading an entire team of S-2's, so yeah.

And like Blaxican said, Spartans are ordinary humans who've undergone extensive genetic restructuring and upgrades. They've got titanium laced bones, extremely dense muscles, etc....

Originally posted by ares834
Nah normal humans set in super suits that can tank normal hammer attacks... So then what difference does it make? The feats are the only thing that matters, and the feats are there. Whatever their "designation", or "title" is, is irrelevant.

Tanking attacks from a large hammer is not impressive in the slightest.

Neither is sending a couple dudes flying with a large hammer.

Its more than enough to take down the Cheif who has never been shown to tank such an attack.

Spartan armor has shown to tank much stronger hammer attacks, though. So that's incorrect.

Originally posted by ares834
Tanking attacks from a large hammer is not impressive in the slightest. Stop talking, lest you further display your ineptitude to the forum.

He's trying to do some kind of "use your logic against you" thing!

He's not very good at it, though. He doesn't seem to realize that the actual feats shown on screen from Halo Legends trump Sauron's feats from the movie.

Originally posted by ares834
Tanking attacks from a large hammer is not impressive in the slightest.

Correct; anyone can do it, even a super-massive hammer swung by a super-strong hulking ape-man like creature. Tanking hits like that is old-hat to me.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Spartan armor has shown to tank much stronger hammer attacks, though. So that's incorrect.
Which attack has eve been shown to be stronger? I have yet to see the brute have a strengh to knock several men flying into the air and dozens of feet.

Originally posted by ares834
Is that really the way we are going with this? That is honestly the stupidest shit ever. I guess Master Chief isn't a spartan 3 as it isn't stated in the movie...

Ahhh, but you see, the difference is we have documented materials for Halo legends. None of the bonus materials for the the Lord of the Rings movies state the Sauron is a Demi-God. In fact, that whole Maiar mythology was excluded from the film, on purpose. Why? Because it would entail even more story and "facts" that could have been ****ed up in addition to too much time spent on it.


However, we know for a fact which characters are Spartan IIs and which aren't: their armor indicates exactly that.

Spartan I's? Nope. Spartan III's? Nope. Spartan II's? Yup. This is external of the documentation, of course. There's also the special features.



Calling Sauron a demi-god? Not true. That would go to the Valar as they are the Demi-Gods. The Maiar would be the equivalent to heralds of the Valar. Technically, none of them have the ability to make complete life so none of them would be demi-gods: just heralds to Eru.


Originally posted by ares834
Which attack has eve been shown to be stronger? I have yet to see the brute have a strengh to knock several men flying into the air and dozens of feet.

It's been covered, by myself, already, in the most adequate way. However, I'll do it again, for you.


The Spartan II taken down by the Brute was much larger than the humans she was with. She also displayed quite a large amount of superhuman strength.

So what about her armor? Superior to mithril, lol. It is also cybernetically enhanced to increased strength and absorb impacts.

The gravity hammer? Like it has been pointed out, it can launch multi-ton vehicles like it ain't no thang.

John-117? He's far superior to his Spartan-II companions. Arguably the best that the Spartan program has produced.

So our lady Spartan (who's name I remembered only a couple of days ago...but I can't remember today), who is inferior to John in everyway, died from a direct head shot from a Brute. But it wansn't an immediate death.


A gravity hammer blow is >>>>>>>>> Sauron's mace. What would happen to John? Most likely, he'd be launched but his armor and skeleton should be more than enough to get by with nothing more than minor bruises, if that.

Originally posted by ares834
Which attack has eve been shown to be stronger? I have yet to see the brute have a strengh to knock several men flying into the air and dozens of feet.

1:30 on

gg

The real irony there actually is that we see the brute, which going by size and bulk must obviously weigh at least 800 or so pounds, get kicked even further than what Sauron's mace does.

trolo, spartan kick > sauron mace strike. double gg

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ahhh, but you see, the difference is we have documented materials for Halo legends. None of the bonus materials for the the Lord of the Rings movies state the Sauron is a Demi-God. In fact, that whole Maiar mythology was excluded from the film, on purpose. Why? Because it would entail even more story and "facts" that could have been ****ed up in addition to too much time spent on it.

Really. All right I'll take your word for it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Calling Sauron a demi-god? Not true. That would go to the Valar as they are the Demi-Gods. The Maiar would be the equivalent to heralds of the Valar. Technically, none of them have the ability to make complete life so none of them would be demi-gods: just heralds to Eru.
Well the Valar are called "Gods" in the Sillmarillian. They are not "THE GOD" but rather gods of the mythological type, similar to the Olympians and the Aesir.

Originally posted by ares834
Well the Valar are called "Gods" in the Sillmarillian. They are not "THE GOD" but rather gods of the mythological type, similar to the Olympians and the Aesir.


But we are not in universe characters and we can call them demi-gods as they are not "The Gods."

Even if we give Sauron a sidekick like Samus, Master Chief still takes the victory.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
1:30 on

gg
He knocks a Spartan back several feet... Its impressive but not Sauron level yet.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The real irony there actually is that we see the brute, which going by size and bulk must obviously weigh at least 800 or so pounds, get kicked even further than what Sauron's mace does.

trolo, spartan kick > sauron mace strike. double gg

Umm not even close. He kicks the brute back no more than a dozen feet, who then falls down a waterfall.

BTW, I'm not saying Sauron wins. He still has to hit Chief who is incredibly fast, I just doubt MC will survive such an attack.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But we are not in universe characters and we can call them demi-gods as they are not "The Gods."

They shaped the world... I guess Gods may not be the most accurate term for them, but in truth neither is "demi-god". Regardless, they are equivelient with mytholigical gods, while the maiar are equivilant with demigods. There functions and roles are all similar.

Originally posted by Robtard
Even if we give Sauron a sidekick like Samus, Master Chief still takes the victory.


Samus effortlessly would destroy Master Chief.

Originally posted by ares834


Samus effortlessly would destroy Master Chief.

Only if the fight takes place on planet fanboy.

Or on the Video Game VS forum...

Making it game based is bordering on spite, MC stomps.

Samus would do unholy things to MC.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Samus would do unholy things to MC.

Chief use her as a cheap whore.

But we're getting way off topic.

Originally posted by ares834
They shaped the world... I guess Gods may not be the most accurate term for them, but in truth neither is "demi-god". Regardless, they are equivelient with mytholigical gods, while the maiar are equivilant with demigods. There functions and roles are all similar.

I would put the Valar on level with the Titans, which were not Gods and the Greek Gods were more Demi-Gods.

The Maiar are definitely not demi-Gods since they cannot create complete life. Technically, neither are the Valar, but they are pretty dang close because they are more like Titans, except they can form stuff in the Universe.

And, I thought Eru was the one that created the universe? Or was it the songs of the 15 Valar? I don't remember, anymore.


Dr. Manhattan would be an example of a Demi-God, though.


Originally posted by ares834
He knocks a Spartan back several feet... Its impressive but not Sauron level yet.

A Fully Armored Spartan II weighs over 1000lbs. The other solider is also in full body tactical armor. His weight, while not close to 1000lbs, is definitely pushing 400-600, at least.

Considering it wasn't a gravity hammer strike and only a "fling" from the Brute, that should more than prove to you that the Brute's are much stronger than Sauron's magic enhanced mace.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would put the Valar on level with the Titans, which were not Gods and the Greek Gods were more Demi-Gods.


What do yo base that last part on? Creation and/or giving of life is something more associated with Godhood, no?

Originally posted by ares834
He knocks a Spartan back several feet... Its impressive but not Sauron level yet.

Creating 4 foot wide craters in solid earth > knocking people away.




Kicking a 9 foot tall 800 pound animal 12 feet with a single kick > knocking 5'10 fairys away.

Seriously dude, wiki it, since it would be allowed in the absence of any information from the movies regarding Numenorean stature, yes?

Wiki Sauron.
Wiki Elendil.
Wiki Everything or something idk

Now tell me, is flinging around fully armor guys like ragdolls, and instantly killing them, not impressive?

Also, lets see a troll stab a spartan with a spear, no shields. That spartan happens to be f***ked, thank you. Mithril withstood it.
As per Tolkiens intentions, mithril is pretty much indestructible......

If we're bringing in the written works for Mithral, shall we bring in the written work for the Mjolnir suite? Cos I've read "suit is practically indestructible", this was in regards to the suit with the energy-shield not operating.

Originally posted by Robtard
What do yo base that last part on? Creation and/or giving of life is something more associated with Godhood, no?

Which is exactly what the Valar cannot do: create life. They specifically need Eru to do that. The Titans are more Demi-Gods than the Valar are.


Originally posted by Pwned
Seriously dude, wiki it, since it would be allowed in the absence of any information from the movies regarding Numenorean stature, yes?

Wiki Sauron.
Wiki Elendil.
Wiki Everything or something idk

Now tell me, is flinging around fully armor guys like ragdolls, and instantly killing them, not impressive?

Also, lets see a troll stab a spartan with a spear, no shields. That spartan happens to be f***ked, thank you. Mithril withstood it.
As per Tolkiens intentions, mithril is pretty much indestructible......

Gotta stick to the movies and the movie "extras", not the books. There's a HUGE amount of book materials from Halo...comics too. We could use tons of stuff on that. We gotta stick to the movies, because both sides have lots of stuff.

That said, no, sorry, the humans that fought Sauron were regular sized humans. None of this Nummie stuff that people have been trying to pass off: that's not the case. I've already provided canon evidence that Sauron was in the form of a large man. If those humans were as large as you say, then they'd be as large or larger than Sauron. Not the case. We gotta stick to what was seen onscreen.



Additionally, that doesn't come close to a fully armored Spartann II, in both size and weight.

Dude, they were Numenorians by definition that Gondor and Arnor were NUMENOREAN kingdoms, and the fact that IN THE MOVIES, they were, and they came from there, as they were the NUMENOREAN kingdoms of MEN. (Numenorean men)

They were taller and heavier, and mroe skilled than a normal human. Why debate that? Sauron STILL ***** slapped them around, throwing them a good distance for a 400 pound thing

Also, a "large man" is not definable, as it jsut says large, he could have been 15 feet tall for all we know, they came up to hi neck in that movie

Well without anyone normal sized to compare them too, they looked like regular people.

The Spartan in Babysitter was obviously huge in comparison to the ODST's, etc...

What's this bullshit about them not being Numenoreans? So they didn't say it in the movie. So what? They also never mentioned Eru, Beleriand, Rhovanion, Khand, Radagast, Mirkwood, or the names of every character in the mythos. Just because they're never mentioned in the movie doesn't mean it doesn't occur within the mythos. This is just useless nitpicking in an attempt to prove a point.

Originally posted by Pwned
Dude, they were Numenorians by definition that Gondor and Arnor were NUMENOREAN kingdoms, and the fact that IN THE MOVIES, they were, and they came from there, as they were the NUMENOREAN kingdoms of MEN. (Numenorean men)

I did not see "numenorean" mentioned, once.

Regardless, they were not larger than any other men: they were the same. Had Jackson wanted to do that, he could have. With either extras casting or effects, similar to how it di the hobbits as smaller.

Originally posted by Pwned
They were taller and heavier, and mroe skilled than a normal human. Why debate that? Sauron STILL ***** slapped them around, throwing them a good distance for a 400 pound thing

This is the MVF, not fantasy VF. They were not 7 foot tall men.

Originally posted by Pwned
Also, a "large man" is not definable, as it jsut says large, he could have been 15 feet tall for all we know, they came up to hi neck in that movie

Actually, yes, we know exactly how he wanted to do it as he specifically said that he wasn't gigantic. Large man could be alllll they way up to Wadlow: 8 Feet 11" or 272 CM.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What's this bullshit about them not being Numenoreans? So they didn't say it in the movie. So what? They also never mentioned Eru, Beleriand, Rhovanion, Khand, Radagast, Mirkwood, or the names of every character in the mythos. Just because they're never mentioned in the movie doesn't mean it doesn't occur within the mythos. This is just useless nitpicking in an attempt to prove a point.

You can't use the false idea that Nummies are 7 foot tall, 300lbs, beastly men, in the MVF because they weren't that way in the movie.

That's not "useless nitpicking", that's following the MVF rules. You cannot assign traits to individuals that did not exist in the films. I take it a step further and say that the extras on the movies should be allowed: thought that is up to the thread starter.


As I've pointed out, already, even IF you could pass them off as very tall me, they are still men. They would be turned to pudding inside of the Mark VI armor, anyway, because they do not have the genetic enhancements required to even use it. It's a pointless "counter-example" because a Spartan II is >>>>>>>>>>>>> than a Nummie in every single physical attribute you can think of minus that some were taller than Spartan IIs.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You can't use the false idea that Nummies are 7 foot tall, 300lbs, beastly men, in the MVF because they weren't that way in the movie.

That's not "useless nitpicking", that's following the MVF rules. You cannot assign traits to individuals that did not exist in the films. I take it a step further and say that the extras on the movies should be allowed: thought that is up to the thread starter.


As I've pointed out, already, even IF you could pass them off as very tall me, they are still men. They would be turned to pudding inside of the Mark VI armor, anyway, because they do not have the genetic enhancements required to even use it. It's a pointless "counter-example" because a Spartan II is >>>>>>>>>>>>> than a Nummie in every single physical attribute you can think of minus that some were taller than Spartan IIs. I don't care about how tall they appear to be, or how strong we think they are. What I dislike is people here saying that something from a pre-established universe or setting can't be held here because "it wasn't mentioned". I'm fine with diminishing their size for the movie because that is how it was shown, but to say the aren't Numenoreans because "it wasn't mentioned" is nitpicking. We may as well say that they didn't have genitalia because we never see their dicks. You could follow that train and say that nothing happened in Middle-Earth before the rings were forged, because we're never shown it happening. Or that Morgoth's appearance is that off a stubby midget because he's never described to us by Legolas.


Visual appearances = Let's use them. But can we stop omitting every bit of history and descriptive just because no character mentioned it?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm fine with diminishing their size for the movie because that is how it was shown, but to say the aren't Numenoreans because "it wasn't mentioned" is nitpicking.

Not it's not. If they were who people said they were, they would be going toe-to-toe with Sauron.

Gil-galad and Elendil took down Sauron, but they were killed in the process. When Sauron's broken body did nothing (he was unconscious or whatever), Isildur cut off the ring with the broken sword.

This makes two things: Sauron's body was "physical."

Sauron could be beaten down by two large men.

In the movies, normal sized men could do nothing.

You can call it nitpicking, I'll stick to the MVF rules. If it didn't happen on screen, it can't be used in the MVF. If they REALLY were nummies, then they would have been much larger and could have taken out Sauron.


Edit - Also, that fight took place right by Sauron's tower and we weren't even close to that tower in the movies. The war was waged for over 7 years in mordor: we definitely were not in Mordor, in the film.

Do you see why all of these reasons means we can't make sweeping assumptions?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
We may as well say that they didn't have genitalia because we never see their dicks. You could follow that train and say that nothing happened in Middle-Earth before the rings were forged, because we're never shown it happening. Or that Morgoth's appearance is that off a stubby midget because he's never described to us by Legolas.

But, see, that would be just being an ass to prove a point.

The movies changed many things and we cannot speculate what happened before those ages as the movies are canon to themselves, in the MVF.

In other words, you can't say:

"So and so is this type of human."

When that was never mentioned.

That's baseless speculation.

You also cannot say, "this happened before the movie." Because that was never mentioned.

You can make certain assumptions, however: gravity appears to work. Men and women are in the movie played by real men and women, so they most likely have bawlz, cowks, baginers, and bewbz.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Visual appearances = Let's use them. But can we stop omitting every bit of history and descriptive just because no character mentioned it?

No, we omit all history that is not in the movie. Golden Rule of the MVF.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Not it's not. If they were who people said they were, they would be going toe-to-toe with Sauron.

Gil-galad and Elendil took down Sauron, but they were killed in the process. When Sauron's broken body did nothing (he was unconscious or whatever), Isildur cut off the ring with the broken sword.

This makes two things: Sauron's body was "physical."

Sauron could be beaten down by two large men.

In the movies, normal sized men could do nothing.

You can call it nitpicking, I'll stick to the MVF rules. If it didn't happen on screen, it can't be used in the MVF. If they REALLY were nummies, then they would have been much larger and could have taken out Sauron.


Edit - Also, that fight took place right by Sauron's tower and we weren't even close to that tower in the movies. The war was waged for over 7 years in mordor: we definitely were not in Mordor, in the film.

Do you see why all of these reasons means we can't make sweeping assumptions?



But, see, that would be just being an ass to prove a point.

The movies changed many things and we cannot speculate what happened before those ages as the movies are canon to themselves, in the MVF.

In other words, you can't say:

"So and so is this type of human."

When that was never mentioned.

That's baseless speculation.

You also cannot say, "this happened before the movie." Because that was never mentioned.

You can make certain assumptions, however: gravity appears to work. Men and women are in the movie played by real men and women, so they most likely have bawlz, cowks, baginers, and bewbz.




No, we omit all history that is not in the movie. Golden Rule of the MVF. So lemme get this straight: Dwarves are never mentioned as living longer than men, ergo in the movies they live exactly as long as men. Men are never mentioned has having testes, ergo they don't. The early Gondorians are never mentioned as Numenorians, ergo they aren't (regardless of just what a Numenorean is, it doesn't matter). Sauron is never described as immortal, ergo he's not (he just lives a ling time). The forging of Narsil is never described as having taken place, ergo it didn't, ergo, Narsil is eternal. Same can be said for Elrond, whose birth is never even hinted at.


But the Gondor soldiers are shown as average sized men, ergo they are. But they are also never described as having a history, ergo they don't have one.


I'm cool with omitting feats and skills that are never mentioned, but to go so far as to dismiss their character's origins is ridiculous. It has absolutely nothing to do with feats, traits, or abilities, just history.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So lemme get this straight: Dwarves are never mentioned as living longer than men, ergo in the movies they live exactly as long as men.

No, it's unknown and cannot be used to debate on in the MVF. In other words: null.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Men are never mentioned has having testes, ergo they don't.

Nope, covered that already. Also, he has no bearing on MVF debates, so it really doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The early Gondorians are never mentioned as Numenorians, ergo they aren't (regardless of just what a Numenorean is, it doesn't matter).

Correct.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Sauron is never described as immortal, ergo he's not (he just lives a ling time).

Maybe. That's debatable. We can say that he is immortal up to the point of the ring existing. That was made clear. However, being immortal has a false definition, to begin with. All matter will decay into fundamental components and the whole universe will homogenize in heat with maximum entropy. Maybe his spirit was immortal: does his spirit live on after the events of RotK?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The forging of Narsil is never described as having taken place, ergo it didn't, ergo, Narsil is eternal. Same can be said for Elrond, whose birth is never even hinted at.

But we DO know the Elrond and Co were immortal, but they could be killed.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But the Gondor soldiers are shown as average sized men, ergo they are. But they are also never described as having a history, ergo they don't have one.

Sort of. You kind of make a non sequitur statement.

They DO have a history, it's just not known for the movies.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm cool with omitting feats and skills that are never mentioned, but to go so far as to dismiss their character's origins is ridiculous. It has absolutely nothing to do with feats, traits, or abilities, just history.

No, that's following the rules. There's a reason we have to do that: to avoid contradictions and baseless assumptions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm3BmjIvUtk

There, Last Alliance battle.

THe HUNCHED Numenenoreans are the same height as the elves.
Saurons head is above that. They are NOT normal sized men, also, Gil-Galad was an elf, Noldor to be specific. And there is also the fact that Sauron is NOT swinging that mace slowly, along with the magic hes putting behind it. Hes flinging 8 people around, no problem.

The Noldor thing, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything, so yeah, im throwing it there, Gil-Galad WAS said to be an elf, and an amazing fighter at that, same with Elendil.

Also, never said where the Numenoreans are from, so therefore wouldnt we wiki it?

Originally posted by Pwned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm3BmjIvUtk

There, Last Alliance battle.

THe HUNCHED Numenenoreans are the same height as the elves.
Saurons head is above that. They are NOT normal sized men, also, Gil-Galad was an elf, Noldor to be specific. And there is also the fact that Sauron is NOT swinging that mace slowly, along with the magic hes putting behind it. Hes flinging 8 people around, no problem.

The Noldor thing, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything, so yeah, im throwing it there, Gil-Galad WAS said to be an elf, and an amazing fighter at that, same with Elendil.

Also, never said where the Numenoreans are from, so therefore wouldnt we wiki it?


hahahahahahahahahaha


"hunched"





Good job at making the worst case, ever. Sorry, dude, what you just tried to pull isn't going to fly.


They are normal men. Deal with it. Even if you could successfully argue that those dudes were 7 feet tall and weighed 400lbs, that doesn't change a thing in the thread as that portion of the argument was covered, already.


Their size was not manipulated or substituted. They are the same size as their actors because, get this: the actors are real life people!

True

But look, every time you see a Numenorean and an Elf together, the Numenorean is hunched over quite a bit, and the elf is standing straight. That implies height difference.

Also, just because so and so actor is this tall, doesnt mean the person he is acting is the same height.

For all we know, Sauron was 15 feet tall (not gigantic yet) and they were all 8 feet tall. We never saw any object we knew the height of to compare them, so stop being a douche and just accept the utterly worthless fact!

Seriously, the height has nothing to do with it, and typically people wearing chain mail and plate armor weighed around 400 pounds.

Im just arguing with you for the sake of fanboyismm Nummies=pwnage

Originally posted by Pwned
True

But look, every time you see a Numenorean and an Elf together, the Numenorean is hunched over quite a bit, and the elf is standing straight. That implies height difference.

Also, just because so and so actor is this tall, doesnt mean the person he is acting is the same height.

For all we know, Sauron was 15 feet tall (not gigantic yet) and they were all 8 feet tall. We never saw any object we knew the height of to compare them, so stop being a douche and just accept the utterly worthless fact!

Seriously, the height has nothing to do with it, and typically people wearing chain mail and plate armor weighed around 400 pounds.

Im just arguing with you for the sake of fanboyismm Nummies=pwnage

lol!



I'll accept the douche label only because you've already admitted to and accepted the fanboy label.

COMPROMISE IS AWESOME!


And, no, they weren't 400lbs, full armor. You've got a case for 250 lbs, though.

Originally posted by Pwned

Seriously, the height has nothing to do with it, and typically people wearing chain mail and plate armor weighed around 400 pounds.


Not even close. Full-plate which included layers of cloth, animal-hide and chain-mail typically weighed around 70-75lbs, well crated gear could be as low as 50lbs.

So even with a large 225 man, you're looking at just under 300lbs. Though authentic plate-mail is typically small, as people were short back then. Typical knight in gear probably weighed less than DDM in just his boxer-shorts.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not even close. Full-plate which included layers of cloth, animal-hide and chain-mail typically weighed around 70-75lbs, well crated gear could be as low as 50lbs.

So even with a large 225 man, you're looking at just under 300lbs. Though authentic plate-mail is typically small, as people were short back then. Typical knight in gear probably weighed less than DDM in just his boxer-shorts.

I was going for the men in the movie. They were between 150-225. 250 seems about average for those actors.


Granted, they were in MUCH lighter armor so they didn't get tired or hurt from all that weight. But we are going for what they were being portrayed as, not real-world.

Also, I weigh 224. You're right that they probably weigh that much as the average height of a man was...what...5'6", 5'7"? In shape knights would weigh about 150-170 at the most. Keep in mind that BIG muscular dudes did not exist, at all, back in the day. It was impossible for several reasons: they lacked the science, diet, workout routines, and they got sick far too often.

The "muscular" greek statutes were done after their athletes. We have an idea how muscular men could have gotten back then from those examples (they were probably better athletes than those of the middle ages due to the competitions they had...IMO, they were the best athletes in history before the 1900s rolled around)...and even those were exaggerated like super-heros in comic books are.

Eugene Sandow, imo, represents what was humanly possible before modern science. He was quite muscular and lean...but not even close to even a slightly above average gym rat.

But you have to take into account that they are taller than your standard knight, and weigh more. Watch the video, their armor covered, say, 90% of them, chain, plate and all? I remember reading somewhere that steel plate armor, with chain mail and all, weighed around 100-150 pounds. On a 250 pound guy (because remember, the warriors were some of the people in the best shape, due to the fact that if they werent they would die) thats 350-400

The actors, wearing that armor, if it had really been on them, would weigh around 400 or so pounds.

Im takin the actors height argument here, and i only got a sec, so yeah

Fine, those people in the film were hulking 400lbs men-brutes. Master Chief is still kicking ass here.

Wait, in RL or in the LOTR-verse? Because the peasants/soldiers seemed fine in the movies. Plus Numenoreans are like 7 feet tall and shit. ****ers fought armies of Balrogs in their day man.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wait, in RL or in the LOTR-verse? Because the peasants/soldiers seemed fine in the movies. Plus Numenoreans are like 7 feet tall and shit. ****ers fought armies of Balrogs in their day man.

IRL AND in universe FOR THE MOVIE. (Which would be the actors real heights except for those portrayed as larger or smaller: ie, Sauron and the Hobbits.)

Well, if their ACTUALY heights are the Numenoreans height, then their actual weights should be the Numenoreans weight, yes?

In that case, wearing steel plate armor and chain mail, modern men will weigh 350-400 pounds, due to the fact they weigh around 200 to begin with, if not more, due to the fact they live in modern times with the science, meals, and they dont get sick as often.

Honestly, they weigh more with the "Person A is the exact same as his actor" argument than the "They are Numenoreans, they are taller, and weigh more than a normal human" argument.

Besides, take one whos skill is about equal or lesser (ARAGORN) and look at the shit he pulled during the movies, and you have a base for their skill. Think of that.
Of course, he was faster in that he wasnt wearing as much armor.
Oh, and also, i dont believe the Spartans origins were EVER explained in Legends, and as far as i know that is the ONLY movie/film/whatever that provides feats for Chief, in which case, your argument is null.

Give me a video that explains their origins, their enhancements, and mentions Chief, and ill get something else, til then, Sauron wins.

Originally posted by Pwned

Give me a video that explains their origins, their enhancements, and mentions Chief, and ill get something else, til then, Sauron wins.

What an odd thing to ask for considering you're basing the Numereans who weren't named as such in the film and their height, weight and general awesomeness on the books.

Just Google John-117 or Spartan Project Halo. Each Spartan II was raised/trained from an early age to be a total bad-ass and they were given several biological enhancements. They're super-tanks and can run at cheetah speeds.

Sauron got his ass kicked by a injured man with a broken sword, Master Chief is 1,000+ times more capable than Isildur.

Originally posted by Pwned
Well, if their ACTUALY heights are the Numenoreans height, then their actual weights should be the Numenoreans weight, yes?

In that case, wearing steel plate armor and chain mail, modern men will weigh 350-400 pounds, due to the fact they weigh around 200 to begin with, if not more, due to the fact they live in modern times with the science, meals, and they dont get sick as often.

Honestly, they weigh more with the "Person A is the exact same as his actor" argument than the "They are Numenoreans, they are taller, and weigh more than a normal human" argument.

Besides, take one whos skill is about equal or lesser (ARAGORN) and look at the shit he pulled during the movies, and you have a base for their skill. Think of that.
Of course, he was faster in that he wasnt wearing as much armor.
Oh, and also, i dont believe the Spartans origins were EVER explained in Legends, and as far as i know that is the ONLY movie/film/whatever that provides feats for Chief, in which case, your argument is null.

Give me a video that explains their origins, their enhancements, and mentions Chief, and ill get something else, til then, Sauron wins.

Nah.

Aragorn >>>>>> Isildur and Elendil in the movies.


They went down like punk bitches. (Isildur just ran.)


Additionally, they were regularly sized men, in the films. How many times are we going to cover this?


And, no, Sauron goes down like a punk *****: just like he did against Isildur. With one slight exception: Sauron goes down even faster and harder than he did against Isildur.


Even IF Sauron is 15 feet tall. This is not fanboyism: this is based on the fact that Spartan II's are supposed to have reflexes 300 times faster than human's and have bodies that are multiple times more durable and stronger than a humans. If a regular human at the height of 6'5" was to try and don Mark VI armor, it would turn them into pudding because of how powerful the armor is. A Spartan II? Nothing. This should make it obvious how much more durable the Spartan II's are.

Where is the source that says that?

You want in universe movie shit, i want it to.
Legends mentionend NOTHING of their training, of their armor, or of what they could do, all it said was that they were supersoldiers.
It showed 5 of the, in action in a suprise attack, and while fairly impressive, id laugh when Sauron ***** slapped them.

Also, what about the weights?



Oh, and Rob, i used the books because there was absolutly nothing said about ANY of them, short of "I am Isildur's heir."

I then took their origins from the books, and DDM is contesting it, plus, im talking about guys who had 5 seconds screen time, against a guy who had about 30 minutes or more, its not easy to do that.

If there is absolutly no mention of the Spartans origins in a movie, NONE whatsoever, as with the Numenoreans, then sure, get their origins from the books, ill run with it.

Originally posted by Pwned
Where is the source that says that?

You want in universe movie shit, i want it to.
Legends mentionend NOTHING of their training, of their armor, or of what they could do, all it said was that they were supersoldiers.
It showed 5 of the, in action in a suprise attack, and while fairly impressive, id laugh when Sauron ***** slapped them.

Also, what about the weights?



Oh, and Rob, i used the books because there was absolutly nothing said about ANY of them, short of "I am Isildur's heir."

I then took their origins from the books, and DDM is contesting it, plus, im talking about guys who had 5 seconds screen time, against a guy who had about 30 minutes or more, its not easy to do that.

If there is absolutly no mention of the Spartans origins in a movie, NONE whatsoever, as with the Numenoreans, then sure, get their origins from the books, ill run with it.

Sauron dies in less than a second.


Get over it.

Never saw Chief move that fast, i always saw him move at the speeds of a normal human.

Originally posted by Pwned
Never saw Chief move that fast, i always saw him move at the speeds of a normal human.

Huh? I don't know what you're talking about.

Halo Legends, Chief moved at the same speed as a fast human. Never saw any faster. Forgot to hit the quote button, i iddnt feel like taking some extra time.

As far as Chiefs screen feats go, he moves at human speeds, has the strength of a human (as the Spartan II that threw that pod could have been a mega strong one) and is an amazing aim with a weaponin each hand, and is a great energy sword duelist. He is also about 7 feet tall from looking at him standing next to Hayes, isnt it? The doctor person, though thats a guesstimation, considering how she looks like a midget next to him. 7 or 8 feet.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Aragorn >>>>>> Isildur and Elendil in the movies.


I don't think that the "more screentime, more feats = more powerful" school of thinking does deliver accurate results when attempting to judge the power of characters. Elrond does mention multiple times, that the Numenorean blood is weak, because Aragorn refuses to act according to his role. That tells us two things:

a) That the ancestors of Aragorn have archived more things than Aragorn himself as of the time the words were spoken (which is after his fight on the Withertop against the Nazghul for example).

b) That his bloodline is considered something special, above the regular mortals. Which is also emphasised throughout the trilogy. In "The Two Towers" (at least the Special Extended Edition) Aragorn mentions to have fought among Theoden in the youth of the Rohan king, revealing that he's in his 80s.



Again: How do you conclude this? All you can compare them to are other individuals of Tolkiens universe and we don't know how they compare to ordinary humans of today. Going by the fact that Tolkiens narration follows a "golden age" topos in general, one could conclude, that the earlier people lived, the more powerful they were. This is hinted in the films and becomes painfully obvious, when one looks into the books, where Elves and Men of the past took it up with dragons and balrogs in single combat (not to mention with Melkor himself).



Right. Let me do a check here. Sauron was just killed, because he was hit with a lucky strike surprise attack, with a magic weapon that was previously broken. This just worked, because Sauron was seperated from his ring.

We don't know if any ordinary weapon would be sufficient to cut through Saurons armor (Narsil / Anduril has been shown to be sharp after serveral thousand years and could parry strikes of a ghost) and if a "regular human" could even perform that task.

And I think you're vastly underestimating Sauron. According to the movie canon (Gandalf claiming he could become as powerful and terrifying as Sauron should he use the ring), we have to assume that Sauron is at least as powerful as Gandalf. And that's refering to his magical abilities. Even by watching the introduction, when he starts swinging his mace, it's rather obvious that the result of his swings aren't coming from his physical strength only. In fact, we do see surges of energy emanating from the mace, tossing the victims of the attacks backwards (hard enough to actually kill them all, if going by the fade of the people we see getting hit).



I wonder if this all has been mentioned in the respective Halo sources. This is, after all, the movie versus forum, isn't it? Because if we use all kind of sources, this will be a landslide victory for Sauron, given that he is a demigod in Tolkiens world, capable of pretty powerful magic.

Yet, again: I think you're underestimating Sauron's abilities while not taking the circumstances of his "death" into consideration. Essentially, were talking about Sauron, armed with magical abilities, coupled with tremendous physical strength, going down because getting his by a magical weapon with a surprise attack - an attack that did hit his only weakspot, which is the only way to "kill" Sauron.

Do you really think that Master Chief would be able to cut Sauron's fingers off (removing the Ring) before getting clubbed to death? I'm not so sure here. But I have to admit that I don't remember all Halo cutscenes with Master Chief in action...

Whoa, speculation much?

I for one am completely for the school of logic that more feats = more powerful, or should I say more, superior feats = more powerful, just as I am that 5 is a higher number than 2. It's basic logic. Isildur and Elendil do jack all in the movies and pretty much both die like punks. Aragorn does actual impressive things in the movie. 5 > 2.

a) Or it could mean that Aragorns ancestors ruled pretty much half the continent whereas Aragorn is some punkass ranger running around in the woods. Or possibly that one of his blood is directly responsible for Saurons continuation and was the Ring's ***** (though personally I see Elrond as much to blame for that, he didn't exactly bust a gut stopping him). Theres nothing suggesting Elrond was talking about combat ability at all.

b) Agreed, his bloodline is superior to others. Numenorean (whose blood runs in his veins) are physically superior to other men and as you pointed out live longer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whoa, speculation much?

I for one am completely for the school of logic that more feats = more powerful, or should I say more, superior feats = more powerful, just as I am that 5 is a higher number than 2. It's basic logic. Isildur and Elendil do jack all in the movies and pretty much both die like punks. Aragorn does actual impressive things in the movie. 5 > 2.

Brilliant.

Following that school of logic, Isildur defeating Sauron in direct combat trumps just about anything Aragorn has done, provided that the latter just faced Sauron's minions. There you go...

That aside: Aragorn uses Elendil's name as battle cry in multiple occassions of the trilogy - I think he does so for a reason...



Being aware of the backstories Tolkien did invent for all of his characters, this seems a somewhat laughable argument. In likewhise makes no sense for the movie version, when you consider the fact that Elrond wants Aragorn to take up the sword that was left as heirloom for him. He doesn't want him to knock on the gates of Minas Tirith to just make himself king, right? So, obviously, Elrond isn't referring to the birth rights of Aragorn here.



Which was the entire point here. Numenoreans aren't normal men. Yet, Elrond mentions that the bloodline has watered down. Taking that into consideration, one has to assume that the likes of Isildur and Elendil were more powerful than Aragorn himself (since they were born Numenoreans).
In fact, Elendil was 322 years old when he was killed by Sauron (Aragorn died of old age when being 123 years old) and, according to the source material, Elendil was about 7.9 feet tall.

I remember in the appendix of LotR, an entry stated that Aragorn 120 years after he was crowned. That would make him about 209.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I remember in the appendix of LotR, an entry stated that Aragorn 120 years after he was crowned. That would make him about 209.

I think you're correct there. There is still a noteable difference between dying a natural death at 210 and being mortally wounded in battle at the age of 322. Especially when you consider that Elendil didn't exactly look like being on the brink of natural death in the movie.

Umm, no. Isildur got off an incredibly lucky strike against Sauron while he was unprepared. He didn't defeat him in combat. Thats like saying that Pippin (or was it Merry?) > the Witch King becuase he stabbed him in the back. Furthermore, Isildur got killed in an orc ambush while he was running away like an utter sissy. The guys pathetic. 3.05

n037Qpm7vWA

Aragorn would have taken out the entire ambush by himself, let alone with 50+ soldiers with him.

Again, nothing suggests he uses Elendil's name because the guy was was complete badass. Especially when we see the guy get taken out in under a second by Sauron, as above. Thats the only quantifiable thing Elendil does on screen. Colour me unimpressed.



Thats my point. Elrond calls the bloodline weak because its descendant is a random ranger, but that doesn't mean that it can't become strong again by retaking its rightful place as king. Also, Elrond directly links Isildur keeping the ring to the weakness of men, 'The blood of men is weak. I was there, X years ago. It should have ended that day. But Isildur kept the ring. There is no strength in the will of men.' See below for the actual scene.



Pure speculation that flys in the face of what we see on screen. You have nothing but your own interpretation that Elrond was speaking about Aragorns/Isildur's combat abilities. In fact, I'd quite like to see the scene in which he says this so we can know the context in which he was speaking. That ought to straighten things up a bit.

Source material has no place here. This is a movie forum. Only movie stuff applies.

Ah, here it is:

SKmhUpYd9WE

2.15 to the end.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't think that the "more screentime, more feats = more powerful" school of thinking does deliver accurate results when attempting to judge the power of characters. Elrond does mention multiple times, that the Numenorean blood is weak, because Aragorn refuses to act according to his role. That tells us two things:

a) That the ancestors of Aragorn have archived more things than Aragorn himself as of the time the words were spoken (which is after his fight on the Withertop against the Nazghul for example).

b) That his bloodline is considered something special, above the regular mortals. Which is also emphasised throughout the trilogy. In "The Two Towers" (at least the Special Extended Edition) Aragorn mentions to have fought among Theoden in the youth of the Rohan king, revealing that he's in his 80s.



Again: How do you conclude this? All you can compare them to are other individuals of Tolkiens universe and we don't know how they compare to ordinary humans of today. Going by the fact that Tolkiens narration follows a "golden age" topos in general, one could conclude, that the earlier people lived, the more powerful they were. This is hinted in the films and becomes painfully obvious, when one looks into the books, where Elves and Men of the past took it up with dragons and balrogs in single combat (not to mention with Melkor himself).



Right. Let me do a check here. Sauron was just killed, because he was hit with a lucky strike surprise attack, with a magic weapon that was previously broken. This just worked, because Sauron was seperated from his ring.

We don't know if any ordinary weapon would be sufficient to cut through Saurons armor (Narsil / Anduril has been shown to be sharp after serveral thousand years and could parry strikes of a ghost) and if a "regular human" could even perform that task.

And I think you're vastly underestimating Sauron. According to the movie canon (Gandalf claiming he could become as powerful and terrifying as Sauron should he use the ring), we have to assume that Sauron is at least as powerful as Gandalf. And that's refering to his magical abilities. Even by watching the introduction, when he starts swinging his mace, it's rather obvious that the result of his swings aren't coming from his physical strength only. In fact, we do see surges of energy emanating from the mace, tossing the victims of the attacks backwards (hard enough to actually kill them all, if going by the fade of the people we see getting hit).



I wonder if this all has been mentioned in the respective Halo sources. This is, after all, the movie versus forum, isn't it? Because if we use all kind of sources, this will be a landslide victory for Sauron, given that he is a demigod in Tolkiens world, capable of pretty powerful magic.

Yet, again: I think you're underestimating Sauron's abilities while not taking the circumstances of his "death" into consideration. Essentially, were talking about Sauron, armed with magical abilities, coupled with tremendous physical strength, going down because getting his by a magical weapon with a surprise attack - an attack that did hit his only weakspot, which is the only way to "kill" Sauron.

Do you really think that Master Chief would be able to cut Sauron's fingers off (removing the Ring) before getting clubbed to death? I'm not so sure here. But I have to admit that I don't remember all Halo cutscenes with Master Chief in action...


No, what I said. You're wrong on all accounts that contradict mine. This is the MVF, not another forum. Going by movie feats, Aragon is much more capable than his ancestors.

Stick to what is seen in the movie or the extras on the DVDs.

Magic weapon: nope. Not magical at all. You're introducing things in the movie that do not exist.


Already acknolwedged that the mace is magical. Already covered why the mace isn't doing jack.

No, if we get to use all kinds of sources, it's an even larger victory for Chief.

Fact is. the LOTR fanboys have vastly overestimated Sauron baed mostly on myth. What happened to Sauron IN STORY against two gents that were MUCH weaker and MUCH slower than John? They broght Sauron to his knees. What happened in the movie? A coward and a regular man grabbed a brokwn sword that was very brittle and cut off Sauron's fingers as he reached for Isildur. Much different...that movie Sauron would be even weaker, imo.


*Reads other posts in this thread*

I guess all of you are forgetting that if you use book materials, you still fail to overcome any Spartan II, much less Master Chief. A Nummie is a pile of pudding compared to a naked Spartan II. Lest you guys forget that a regular human of similar stature to a Spartan (that would be a select few Nummies) II would turn to pudding if they entered the Mark VI armor. That's because it takes an ultra=strong skeleton and muscles to wear the armor.


LOL at anyone who says Master Chief isn't as strong as the other Spartan II that was see throwing a large metal re-entry pod. It's a Spartan II: that's a fact. I love it.

Well, Chiefs screen feats are about as equal to that of Faramir. Not that impressive, i have NEVER seen Chief do ANYTHING particularly "spartan-ish"

So quit saying he some uber human, while arguing that Sauron isnt nothing because he has few screen feats, fact is, Chief has LESS.

And, if we go by EXACTLY what we see on screen, Chief is a normal guy in armor.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, what I said. You're wrong on all accounts that contradict mine. This is the MVF, not another forum. Going by movie feats, Aragon is much more capable than his ancestors.

Stick to what is seen in the movie or the extras on the DVDs.


And then, the Movie Versus Forum rule says this:

"What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal."

Urm. To me that sounds that feats from non-movie material can be used unless contradicting what is shown on film.



Really? So regular blades stay sharp for several thousand years and can parry strikes from ghosts? Nope. I don't think so.



You covered that how exactly? From what is seen in the movie, the mace simply kills anything it hits, regardless of armor or actual power of the victim. "The power of the one Ring could not be undone", as the narration says.



Fact is, that when Sauron comes walking on the battlefield, the situation, according to Galadriels narration changed from "victory was near" to "all hope was lost" only by Sauron's appearance on the spot. That implies that the entire assembly of elves and men gathered before Barad-Dur didn't have enough power to defeat Sauron in combat.

You think a single mortal can do the job? Seems a bit odd. But I'm not surprised, given your judgement of Sauron's presense in the books. He is directly defeated only twice. Once by the power of Luthien and Huan combined, with the former having enough power to bewitch Morgoth himself. The other incidence was Isildurs lucky strike in a situation, just to mention it again, in which "all hope was lost". That when the battle was, essentially, Sauron VS all men and elves still alive on the battlefield.



I guess you're forgetting that Sauron is a damn Maiar in the books, capable of shapeshifting and thereby altering his physical appearance according to his means. Morgoth, for example, using the same abilites once walked Arda in form of a giant, with his feet in the water of the oceans and his head in the clouds, while he literally knocked over mountains, spilled oceans and incinerated entire continents.

Master Chief is going to do what against magic? I may remind you that Saruman outright mentions that there is no way to stop Sauron, even for him and Gandalf combined, which should give you an idea about how powerful Sauron was while wielding the One Ring. Then, just to mention it again, we have the narration from the intro, marking Saurons appearance on the battlefield a turning point in that conflict (from the elves and men close to victory to them losing all hope). And, of course, we've seen that the Ring is capable of transporting the wearer into the wrath world, rendering him invisible.

Master Chief is going to triumph over an invisible enemy, that not only happens to be one of the most powerful creatures of Middle-Earth, but also wields a weapon who one-hit-kills anybody it hits? A being that, even when not in best shape, commands the likes of the Witch King of Angmar around, who easily "disarmed" Gandalf with magic:

f7egAVqmH4Q

Really. If the Witch King can do that, so can Sauron. I'd love to see what Master Chief does to Sauron, after his armor and all his weapons have been turned into tiny metal shards by Sauron's magic in an instant. Bore the Dark Lord to death?

Written material on characters, eg comic books, books, graphic novels etc doesn't count in here, as it's the Movie Vs Forum; not the Movie/Comic/Book Vs Forum.

Impediment has stated this before numerous times and it's been the rule in here since the start. Otherwise we have Ang Lee Hulk being able to hold up a mountain or Brandon Ruth Superman tugging shitloads of planets.

PM him if you must to clarify.

Originally posted by Robtard
Written material on characters, eg comic books, books, graphic novels etc doesn't count in here, as it's the Movie Vs Forum; not the Movie/Comic/Book Vs Forum.

Impediment has stated this before numerous times and it's been the rule in here since the start. Otherwise we have Ang Lee Hulk being able to hold up a mountain or Brandon Ruth Superman tugging shitloads of planets.

PM him if you must to clarify.

I don't need any clarification on that issue. My argument also works without out-of-movie details.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't need any clarification on that issue. My argument also works without out-of-movie details.

Seems you do, cos you went on to cite the books concerning Sauron's power and also decided to give Sauron magical abilities he did not show in the film.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And then, the Movie Versus Forum rule says this:

"What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal."

Urm. To me that sounds that feats from non-movie material can be used unless contradicting what is shown on film.

Originally posted by Robtard
Written material on characters, eg comic books, books, graphic novels etc doesn't count in here, as it's the Movie Vs Forum; not the Movie/Comic/Book Vs Forum.

Impediment has stated this before numerous times and it's been the rule in here since the start. Otherwise we have Ang Lee Hulk being able to hold up a mountain or Brandon Ruth Superman tugging shitloads of planets.

PM him if you must to clarify.


Additionally, you said this:

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't need any clarification on that issue. My argument also works without out-of-movie details.

Incorrect. You've used multiple references external to the movies. I'm the type of person that will allow the featurettes and extended versions of films. Anything that is the movie, counts, imo. Now, if you got a digital copy of the books, with the movies, obviously, that doesn't count. Stick to the commentary, extended cuts, and featurettes. It's really up to the thread starter to decide that. But I say "have at it" until Imp. says no to it.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Really? So regular blades stay sharp for several thousand years and can parry strikes from ghosts? Nope. I don't think so.

Ill-found logic:

The Sword was preserved and maintained by the elves. If you'd like to see a blade preserved by "non-magical" humans for about 500 years, look no further than King Henry VIII's ceremonial sword.

Additionally, you have seem to have forgotten about attributes of the ghosts. You wanna know why that sword blocked the blades of the ghosts? Same way those ghosts were able to slay tangible flesh, blood, and bone orcs/trolls/goblins: they are can make themselves "tangible" as well.



Originally posted by Borbarad
You covered that how exactly? From what is seen in the movie, the mace simply kills anything it hits, regardless of armor or actual power of the victim. "The power of the one Ring could not be undone", as the narration says.

Go back and read the first two pages of the thread. It will actually be faster than reading our long ass posts: honest.

Additionally, you only have proof of one kill and that was the king. He might have died from the impact against the rock rather than flying 20 feet. You do know that humans can easily survive flying 20 feet, right?


In other words, you have only one instance of confirmed death from the mace but that is questionable as it could have been due to the impact trauma.


And you can't use that narrator's comment, in that manner, as versus debate"feats" because...get this...the power of the ring WAS undone. Sauron fell and was left to crawl the earth for hundreds of years as a lesser ethereal form. This is in addition to getting his ass destroyed by two child-sized hobbits on his own damn backyard.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Fact is, that when Sauron comes walking on the battlefield, the situation, according to Galadriels narration changed from "victory was near" to "all hope was lost" only by Sauron's appearance on the spot. That implies that the entire assembly of elves and men gathered before Barad-Dur didn't have enough power to defeat Sauron in combat.

That's untrue.

"Victory was near. The power of the ring could not be undone. It was in this moment...that all hope had faded..."

This is one top of them fighting THOUSANDS of enemies, not just Sauron.

Let's recap what you did:

1. Incorrectly quoted Galadriel.
2. Falsely attributed Sauron to being the sole reason for Mordor's victory.

#2 presumes that they didn't obtain some sort of partial victory against Sauron's forces, else "victory" wouldn't be near to begin with.


Originally posted by Borbarad
You think a single mortal can do the job? Seems a bit odd. But I'm not surprised, given your judgement of Sauron's presense in the books. He is directly defeated only twice. Once by the power of Luthien and Huan combined, with the former having enough power to bewitch Morgoth himself. The other incidence was Isildurs lucky strike in a situation, just to mention it again, in which "all hope was lost". That when the battle was, essentially, Sauron VS all men and elves still alive on the battlefield.

Yeah, a mortal can defeat Sauron considering it happened more than once. Once by Isildur by accident (keep in mind that I am referring to the movies. Your misplaced conversations about things other than the movies will not be entertained by me, any longer as I am putting myself in a position to get in trouble, along with you: not a good idea, right?) and another time by the tiny little hobbits.

If Isildur, a far weaker, slower, less durable, less intelligent, smaller, and scared human can defeat Sauron with a very brittle blade, I'm quite sure the epitome of 26th century human genetic engineering, cybernetic engineering, and materials engineering can defeat Sauron.

It seems odd that you think that someone like that could NOT defeat Sauron.

Also, I would appreciate it if you would address the point you responded to. I am giving you far more respect than I would give most due to how respectful and civil you keep your discussions (until someone crosses the line.) I only ask that you directly counter the points I've made. If you cannot, concede the point. I will do the same, of course. That will prevent circles that seem to happen in the MVF which seem to be very common and one of the reasons I go on hiatus from this place, sometimes.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I guess you're forgetting that Sauron is a damn Maiar in the books, capable of shapeshifting and thereby altering his physical appearance according to his means. Morgoth, for example, using the same abilites once walked Arda in form of a giant, with his feet in the water of the oceans and his head in the clouds, while he literally knocked over mountains, spilled oceans and incinerated entire continents.

Morgoth is not Sauron. Morgoth was a Vala (Melkor), Sauron was a Maia. Melkor is one of the great 14. So even if this was in the Sci-Fi Fantasy forum, you'd still be wrong. Can't make up abilities that do not exist for Sauron. Shape-shifter? Sure. Can shape shift into a titan? No.

That's off subject. You shouldn't post on that, anymore, in here. We'll get in trouble.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Master Chief is going to do what against magic?

Sauron is going to do what against 26th century technology? The powers he's shown do not come remotely close to the strikes from a brute.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I may remind you that Saruman outright mentions that there is no way to stop Sauron, even for him and Gandalf combined, which should give you an idea about how powerful Sauron was while wielding the One Ring.

That fails as a work-able logical comparison.

You do realize that Gandalf and Saruman could easily be killed by Master Chief, right? And, yeah, controlling tens of thousands of units, being in an etheral form, and being unable to resist the temptatious magic of the one ring, are all pretty good reasons that two very weak wizards (compared to other wizards' powers we've seen from other movies) is a pretty good reason to think that they would not have victory.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Then, just to mention it again, we have the narration from the intro, marking Saurons appearance on the battlefield a turning point in that conflict (from the elves and men close to victory to them losing all hope). And, of course, we've seen that the Ring is capable of transporting the wearer into the wrath world, rendering him invisible.

I concede the Sauron was turning point, in the film, for Mordor's forces, but only a morale one, not an actual one. Keep in mind that the wording was "seemed lost", not "it was lost": that's because it was a commentary on morale, not an actual ability of Sauron's slow striking movements making him invincible. He could easily be circled and beat down by enough men that decided to kamikaze.

The Ring did not make Sauron invisible. In the films, all people that put on the ring turn invisible: except for Sauron. Sauron specifically did not turn invisible. It did not do that for Sauron, in the books, either. Specifically, it was mortals that became invisible when wearing the ring. Higher beings did not. So even in the books, that's not a power the ring gave Sauron.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Master Chief is going to triumph over an invisible enemy, that not only happens to be one of the most powerful creatures of Middle-Earth, but also wields a weapon who one-hit-kills anybody it hits?

This conclusion relies on two false assessments, on your part.

Here is the list in order of your two points:

1. The Ring did not make Sauron invisible. In the films, all people that put on the ring turn invisible: except for Sauron. Sauron specifically did not turn invisible. Any conclusion that it turns Sauron invisible, is false, from both a movie approach and a book approach.

2. Additionally, you only have proof of one kill and that was the king. He might have died from the impact against the rock rather than flying 20 feet. You do know that humans can easily survive flying 20 feet, right? In other words, you have only one instance of confirmed death from the mace but that is questionable as it could have been due to the impact trauma.

However, I do concede that he was one of the most powerful creatures of Middle-Earth.

Originally posted by Borbarad
A being that, even when not in best shape, commands the likes of the Witch King of Angmar around, who easily "disarmed" Gandalf with magic:

f7egAVqmH4Q

This confuses the "control" issue. The Witch King was corrupted by his ring of power. That was in FotR. The king was controlled by Sauron WHEN Sauron had the One Ring. After they were corrupted, Sauron no longer directly controlled their will when he did not have the One Ring. They were, by all accounts, free agents. There is nothing in the films to suggest otherwise. There is nothing in the books to suggest otherwise.

However, Sauron controlling magical beings under the powers of magical rings, plays not part in his fight against John-117.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Really. If the Witch King can do that, so can Sauron. I'd love to see what Master Chief does to Sauron, after his armor and all his weapons have been turned into tiny metal shards by Sauron's magic in an instant. Bore the Dark Lord to death?

Incorrect: you cannot give feats or powers to Sauron that he did not have in the films. We can speculate, but it's baseless. Sauron never showed that ability in the movies or in the books.

And, Gandalf's Magical Staff seemed to "magically" reform itself for his Mithlond appearance, which occured many minutes later. Now, this is mostly baseless, but we can be more correct in assuming that the Witch King can only explode the magical staff of weaker wizards, but not anything else. That's about as far of a conclusion that we can make. Anything beyond that will net you contradictions such as: why didn't he "explode" other things...especially in the battle that he DIED.








Here's the problem: Master Chief is gimped in this thread, from the beginning. However, he still rapes, utterly. Pretty much every point you made, was invalid, not applicable, or relied on false information. I conceded two points which have no bearing on his fight with John-117.

Well, obviously im just being ignored......


Guys, think, if your former arguments apply, then what i had been saying applies.

Also, show me ONE THING where Chief does ANYTHING exceptional. I have seen NOTHING. Up til the point where i do, and where it EXPLAINS the Spartans origins, what they can do, and if Chief is above them, then all you are giving in baseless speculation and non movie feats, rendering your arguments null and void.

Legends shows nothing other than 3 Spartans pulling off a rush through a ship, John being among them. Let me remind you, he LOST to that Elite, as it had disarmed him, and was about to kill him BEFORE HE WAS SPACED.

That Elite would kick Sauron's ass though

Originally posted by Pwned
Well, obviously im just being ignored......


Guys, think, if your former arguments apply, then what i had been saying applies.

Also, show me ONE THING where Chief does ANYTHING exceptional. I have seen NOTHING. Up til the point where i do, and where it EXPLAINS the Spartans origins, what they can do, and if Chief is above them, then all you are giving in baseless speculation and non movie feats, rendering your arguments null and void.

Legends shows nothing other than 3 Spartans pulling off a rush through a ship, John being among them. Let me remind you, he LOST to that Elite, as it had disarmed him, and was about to kill him BEFORE HE WAS SPACED.

Go back to the beginning of the thread.

Read everything and watch everything.

When you're done, you'll have your answers.


If you think jumping 20-30 meters and killing everyone on a catwalk, while upside down, while running, is "unremarkable", the I'd like to meet your super-human friends and family. Additionally, if grabbing and throwing a space re-entry pod (probably weighing around a ton or two) and throwing it 20-30 meters is unremarkable, I'd like to meet your superhuman friends and family. If you think running down a cooridor while headshotting over 60 "bad guys" is unremarkable, then I'd like to meet your super-human friends and family.

A: Dont remember the headshotting, he was just shooting them. Has good aim, i never doubted that, only an idiot would.
B: Chief did not throw that pod. That was an anonymous Spartan, and for all we know she could have had more strength enhancements than the others.
C:Where the hell is he running upside down on a catwalk?

He JUMPED about 15 feet in the air and spun, spraying 2 fully automatic sub machine guns.

Also, only showed 2 headshots.

So he can jump 15 feet and spin. Suaron is 10 feet tall with a more than likely 4 foot long mace, if not longer. He has arms. He swings up when he sees Chief jump. Chiefs head gets ***** smacked, and the magic takes effect and throws him REALLY far, and his skull has been crushed. Fight over.

Chief has a chance, but the arguments you went with have brought out points for me and Borabad to.......

Originally posted by Pwned
A: Dont remember the headshotting, he was just shooting them. Has good aim, i never doubted that, only an idiot would.
B: Chief did not throw that pod. That was an anonymous Spartan, and for all we know she could have had more strength enhancements than the others.
C:Where the hell is he running upside down on a catwalk?

A. Watch it again, like I suggested.

B. She was not anonymous. Read the thread. She did not have any more enhancements than John-117, just the same as all other Spartan II's wearing the Mark VI armor. Additionally, John DID show a bit of his strength by doing that radtastical jump. Nice try, though, right?
C. Never said he was running upside down on a catwalk.

Originally posted by Pwned
He JUMPED about 15 feet in the air and spun, spraying 2 fully automatic sub machine guns.

Indeed. He jumped about 20-30 meters and about 5 meters into the air. Thanks for agreeing with me.


Originally posted by Pwned
Also, only showed 2 headshots.

Watch it again. Indeed, there were headshots. Also, how many were NOT headshots?


Originally posted by Pwned
So he can jump 15 feet and spin.

I know, such a lame stupid ability to be able to casually jump 15 feet in the air.

Originally posted by Pwned
Suaron is 10 feet tall with a more than likely 4 foot long mace,

It looks more like 7-8 feet, to me. The mace is about 3-4 feet, so I'll give you that.

Originally posted by Pwned
He has arms. He swings up when he sees Chief jump. Chiefs head gets ***** smacked, and the magic takes effect and throws him REALLY far, and his skull has been crushed. Fight over.

Oh, you mean that very sloooooow Sauron that would be made mince meat by any Spartan II, much less the best Spartan II? Yeah, let's put a slow swinging Sauron up against a super-human martial artist, recon solider, weapons export, demolitions expert, inside of a 26th century cybernetic suit. Great match-up.


Originally posted by Pwned
Chief has a chance, but the arguments you went with have brought out points for me and Borabad to.......

You have that wrong.

Sauron has no chance. This is an unintentional spite thread. The best you have come up with is "Well..uh....the lesser Spartan II is obviously stronger despite canon sources saying otherwise. HA! I win! WEEEEEE!" Also, don't lump Borbarad in with your arguments. You lost all credibility when you tried to pass off that hunched argument.

Where did it say Chief was the best? No movie source i know of.
Where did it say that Chief could throw a pod like that? No movie source that i know of.
If your only source is Legends, then Chief loses.
If you include the books, Chief loses.

Chiefs jump was by no means casual, he was in the middle of a run and gun spray down, (only 4 shots or so were shown to be heashots, and at a stretch, because the crosshairs on his HUD were on their head/upper neck) with adrenaline flowing through his body. With the enhancements that the movie DID mention, improved physical capability, then yes, it is possible for him to do that. I do not remember where it says they are superhumans. Also, keep in mind a professional basketball player, being average height, (5 foot something in a few cases) can dunk a basketball no problem, on a (i think) 12 foot goal. Its not as impressive as you would like it to be.

Originally posted by Pwned
Where did it say Chief was the best? No movie source i know of.

Good point. Where did it ever say that Sauron was the most powerful Maia left?

As fact, we know that John was the last Spartan-II.

Did you even see Legends?

Originally posted by Pwned
Where did it say that Chief could throw a pod like that? No movie source that i know of.

It's not required: another Spartan II did it and Chief is greater than all Spatarn IIs. All Spartan-IIs are "legendary" in ability compared elite soldiers: they were topc secret and highly expensive. Or did you forget about that when one of them tired to run away?

Originally posted by Pwned
If your only source is Legends, then Chief loses.

If our only source is Legends then John-117 take out Sauron, Gandalf, Sarumon, the Witch King, and 10 Elvish Nights, all on his own, bare handed.


Originally posted by Pwned
If you include the books, Chief loses.

If you include the books, then Chief can take out an army of Covenant forces all by himself. Every last one of those individual troops would be >>>> Sauron's book form (minus the grunts.)

Originally posted by Pwned
Chiefs jump was by no means casual,

It was. He didn't strain or grunt. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Pwned
he was in the middle of a run and gun spray down, (only 4 shots or so were shown to be heashots, and at a stretch, because the crosshairs on his HUD were on their head/upper neck) with adrenaline flowing through his body. With the enhancements that the movie DID mention, improved physical capability, then yes, it is possible for him to do that. I do not remember where it says they are superhumans. Also, keep in mind a professional basketball player, being average height, (5 foot something in a few cases) can dunk a basketball no problem, on a (i think) 12 foot goal. Its not as impressive as you would like it to be.

An NBA hoop is 10 feet high. About 15 feet in the air, upside down, while leaping 20-30 meters long, IS, however, far beyond human.

It's much more impressive that you'd like it to be because it pains you that your obsession loses to a "human."


I know you think Sauron is badass, but he's really not, not even in the books (He's a really weak bad guy compared to other fantasy). PLEASE tell me you don't LARP as Sauron. At least have some balls to LARP as Aragorn! (I could easily pass as a hobbit with my hairy ass feet. Makes me think...I might go as one for halloween, now. )

Honestly, Spartan L33T was a more accurate portrayal of what Spartan's were capable of, especially in the books.

Originally posted by dadudemon
PLEASE tell me you don't LARP as Sauron. At least have some balls to LARP as Aragorn! (I could easily pass as a hobbit with my hairy ass feet. Makes me think...I might go as one for halloween, now. )

This is an epic film on LARPing. These fools get into it like nobodies business.

If you want a laugh, check it out. I'm sure it can be rented somewhere. If not, PM me, I can hook your ass up.

http://www.darkonthemovie.com/

master chief

The hobbit idea isnt a bad one, i can say that much XD

In the books, he was far more badass. And I never said he was the most powerful Maia left. He was in the top 20 i think, but nowhere near as powerful as the top ones. Olorin was just a random Maia who was picked.

Also, Legends really didnt show Chief in much action. He was spraying the whole time, probably about half of those rounds didnt hit, and where the hell was he reloading, now that i think about it.......

Its only 10 feet? I think its a bit higher, but i might be mistaken.

Also, keep in mind the adrenaline is a huge factor in him being able to do that.

He wasnt the only spartan on that ship, however, and im pretty sure that Legends didnt say Chief was an Uber-Spartan........

Also, tomatoes are legally vegetables, and the first day of Black History Month, the place where i live, the ground was covered in snow, which is white.....
Kind of ironic.......

Originally posted by Pwned
Its only 10 feet? I think its a bit higher, but i might be mistaken.

You're mistaken.

Originally posted by Pwned
Also, keep in mind the adrenaline is a huge factor in him being able to do that.

Thanks for the tip. Next time I want to jump 5 meters in the air, upside down, while doing a front flip, and make the jump 20-30 meters long, I'll just make sure to have my adrenaline going. I'll break the high jump and long jump world records, but, hey, I JUST NEEDS ADRENALZ DEWD!


Originally posted by Pwned
He wasnt the only spartan on that ship, however, and im pretty sure that Legends didnt say Chief was an Uber-Spartan........

You are only aware of one video that John-117 was in? Come on, dude, watch the whole series.

Originally posted by Pwned
Also, tomatoes are legally vegetables, and the first day of Black History Month, the place where i live, the ground was covered in snow, which is white.....
Kind of ironic.......

Tomatoes are fruits, actually.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're mistaken. Oh no... you will find, that it is you who are mistaken. About a great, many, things.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Tomatoes are fruits, actually. Actually in 1939 the US Supreme Court ruled that tomatoes were vegetables for legal and tax purposes.

Its the only multi-group food, without combining them.


Also, a soldier whos athletic ability had been enhanced could only jump like that with arenaline, unless they replaced his legs with hydraulic robot legs.

Originally posted by Pwned

Also, a soldier whos athletic ability had been enhanced could only jump like that with arenaline, unless they replaced his legs with hydraulic robot legs.

Or we can say it's science-fiction and he can do that while he's relaxed as a napping car.

But as you've been told before, the suit greatly amplifies his already enhanced strength. So in a way he does have "robot legs".

Originally posted by Pwned
Actually in 1939 the US Supreme Court ruled that tomatoes were vegetables for legal and tax purposes.

Its the only multi-group food, without combining them.


Also, a soldier whos athletic ability had been enhanced could only jump like that with arenaline, unless they replaced his legs with hydraulic robot legs.

As you get older, you'll find out rather quickly that the government can be quite wrong.

As fact, the government is wrong in calling it a vegetable. Nix v. Hedden shows how stupid the government can end up being.



Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh no... you will find, that it is you who are mistaken. About a great, many, things.

Originally posted by Pwned
Actually in 1939 the US Supreme Court ruled that tomatoes were vegetables for legal and tax purposes. According to good 'ol Wikipedia, a tomato is botanically a fruit, but the U.S. considers it a vegetable. Meanwhile the Council of the European Union says it should be considered a fruit.

America > Europe /fact

America > Wikipedia /fact2

When Napolean was king of all Europe and tried to conquer America in 1902, Abraham Lincoln bested him in single combat and secured the throne of Aquillonia for the next millenium.

And when Brian Boitano built the pyramids, he beat up Kublai Khan. Because Brian Boitano doesn't take shit from anybody.

Incorrect: you cannot give feats or powers to Sauron that he did not have in the films. We can speculate, but it's baseless. Sauron never showed that ability in the movies or in the books.
RJ would disagree, DDM. His favorite line is " can do so all can also ."

NU UH!!!! OBAMA CAN NEVER BE WRONG, HIS PARTY TOLD ME SO!!!!!!!

SO HA, TEH GOVERNMENT IS RIGHT, THEY HAVE IMPLEMENTED A HEALTH CARE BILL THAT HAS ALREADY DROVE MULTIPLE NATIONS BROKE, SO OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE TEH UB3R SM4RT PPLZ!!!!!!



Right.

And Bush......nuff said.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. It doesn't turn Sauron invisible, because he is already a part of the spirit world it moves regular wearers to. Sauron is no creature that is just flesh. This is pretty much seen when he "explodes" just to return later, right? Not to mention his appearance as the all-seeing eye in the movie, both in the physical and in the spirit world (when talking to Frodo, while he wears the Ring)...

I am glad you conceded the point. See, this is how people are supposed to have a proper discussion.

Edit - After reading the rest of your reply, you don't keep up your "courteous" attitude and get a bit nasty. So, I think I must retract that above statement. It was sincere, though, when I first made it.


Originally posted by Borbarad
Right. Humans can survive flying 20 feet. Yet they most likely won't survive the hit that sent them flying 20 feet in the first place. And of course Elendil died of the impact against the rock, rather than the more powerful impact hitting him in form of Sauron's mace. Logic doesn't seem to be your friend.

When fellas get hit on their motorcycles, many times, the impacts against things like other cars, telephone poles, and buildings, kill them, not the impact itself. You'd know that, if you spent a bit of time in an ER. No worries, though, as very few people get to do that.

There's also the trouble of him being alive when he was hit. When he falls to the ground AFTER hitting that large rock's face, he makes one last "grunt" and then dies. As you can tell from his mace, the mace looks to "launch" people almost like TK. He smacks up against that rock pretty hard. It doesn't matter, though, as a smack with that mace does nothing to Master Chief. Master Chief grabs the mace with one hand.



Originally posted by Borbarad
And there is nothing in my post to suggest otherwise. I was merely remarking upon the fact that the Witch King of Angmar is already terrifying enough, yet he's nothing compared to Sauron in his prime, neither in physical ability nor in term of magical ability. This is pretty much stated during the intro to the movies, where his mere presense on the battlefield, changes the situation from "Elves and Men were near victory" to "all hope was gone for Elves and Men". This considerable impact on the situation is nothing but a testament to Sauron's power. But please...keep ignoring it.


I disagree. You said Sauron commands the Witch-King around.

Originally posted by Borbarad
A being that, even when not in best shape, commands the likes of the Witch King of Angmar around, who easily "disarmed" Gandalf with magic:

Also, the Witch-King seems to have two additional abilities that Sauron did NOT show:

1. Lighting a sword on fire.
2. Exploding the Staff of Maia.

When you say "nothing compared to Sauron in his prime" I disagree based on fact. You have to stick to the movies.

You also got the quote wrong, again.

I don't have to ignore anything but, please, stop playing up Sauron beyond his abilities.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. He wasn't using magic in the films?

Uhhh, I never said that.

I simply pointed out a flaw in your logic. "you cannot give feats or powers to Sauron that he did not have in the films. We can speculate, but it's baseless. Sauron never showed that ability in the movies or in the books."

Originally posted by Borbarad
How exactly did he read Merry's thoughts through the Palantir? How did he knock out Aragorn when he touched the thing in a split second? Why did his castle collaps when he died? Probably because he did built it with magic using the One Ring? Gandalf mentions the necromancer of Dol Goldur in "The Fellowship" - Sauron. And we, of course, have his appearance as "the eye" and the fact that he telepatically talked to Aragorn, while the King was standing at the Gates of Mordor. Not to mention his magical mace.

You're arguing a huge gigantic strawman. None of those points matter even a little bit. You cannot argue against a point I didn't make.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sauron is a Maiar and has been proclaimed on screen to be more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman (the only other Maiar appearing in the movies).

Originally posted by dadudemon
That fails as a work-able logical comparison.

You do realize that Gandalf and Saruman could easily be killed by Master Chief, right?



Originally posted by Borbarad
So we have to assume that his abilities are greater than what they've shown onscreen - and the same is the case with the Witch King. He learned his magic from Sauron and has it augmented via one of the lesser rings of power. Of course would the master be more powerful and capable of the same things, especially using the more powerful aid. Anybody who wants to deny that should take some logic classes or apply some common sense.

I asked that you not argue in circles, but you're doing it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect: you cannot give feats or powers to Sauron that he did not have in the films. We can speculate, but it's baseless.


If you want to give Sauron feats that he did not have, then you must do the same for Master Chief. Master Chief can survive atmospheric re-entry therefore, there is no force Sauron is capable of inflicting upon Chief that could even come close to hurting him. You lose and nothing you say can change that.


Do you wish to give up your attempt at giving Sauron feats he does not have? If you do, we can continue. If you don't, you have turned this into a spite thread in which Sauron loses faster than Cindy-Lou versus a fully armed and operational Borg Cube.


Originally posted by Borbarad
Especially, when the entire narration of the introduction makes it pretty damn clear that:

a) The power of the Ring couldn't have been stopped.
b) That Sauron's presense was enough to turn the tide of the battle.

In short: Sauron, wearing the One Ring, is an unstoppable force, upon which Isildur did score a lucky strike. That's like hitting Superman with a stone, not being aware that said stone is a piece of Kryptonite.

You're arguing in circles again.

For a) and your last comment.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And you can't use that narrator's comment, in that manner, as versus debate"feats" because...get this...the power of the ring WAS undone. Sauron fell and was left to crawl the earth for hundreds of years as a lesser ethereal form. This is in addition to getting his ass destroyed by two child-sized hobbits on his own damn backyard.

for b)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I concede the Sauron was turning point, in the film, for Mordor's forces, but only a morale one, not an actual one. Keep in mind that the wording was "seemed lost", not "it was lost": that's because it was a commentary on morale, not an actual ability of Sauron's slow striking movements making him invincible. He could easily be circled and beat down by enough men that decided to kamikaze


In other words, Sauron is NOT an unstoppable force and the power of the ring COULD be undone and it WAS undone.

DDM, dont start on the books, unless youve read the Silmarillion. That gives a decent impression of Saurons power, which is a pretty large amount.
By the movies, Chief is in only one or two, Sauron was in 3. Granted, it was as an eye that everybody was scared shitless of, but an eye all the same.


Eye drops might have helped now that i think about it, his eye DID have alot of inflamation.......

Originally posted by dadudemon
Edit - Also, you have elevated your tone to be a bit more hostile. I was very respectful in my other reply. Please, don't turn this into something more serious than two nerds having a fun discussion on the internet.

It's Borborad. That's just his personality.

Man, it's times like these that I am glad I know nothing of LOTR.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's Borborad. That's just his personality. Germans don't know the meaning of the word "whisper".

Originally posted by Pwned
DDM, dont start on the books, unless youve read the Silmarillion.

How many times have I corrected you and others about items that come from the Silmarillion?

Exactly.

I was obsessed, pratically, with Tolkien's world, in middle school. I used to carry a 1980s special edition around with me (all three. The covers were all black with symbols on the front.) along with the "encyclopedia." I'm not sure what that book was called but it was like a giant index/glossary/hisory n'stuff. It's no wonder people LARP: with such a rich history and lots of documentation to go off of, it's only the next logical step to act out fiction.

Originally posted by Pwned
That gives a decent impression of Saurons power, which is a pretty large amount.

Not really. He's pretty dang weak. Most of the "magical power" is passive or behind the scene type of stuff. Telepathy, mind control for those that wear the rings, and so forth. Very weak when compared to other Fantasy wizards.

Originally posted by Pwned
By the movies, Chief is in only one or two, Sauron was in 3. Granted, it was as an eye that everybody was scared shitless of, but an eye all the same.


Eye drops might have helped now that i think about it, his eye DID have alot of inflamation.......

Yeah, chief was in 3 or 4 of the shorts. I know he was in 3 of them, for sure.

Also, eyedrops. lulz. I think he needs some counseling as well.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Man, it's times like these that I am glad I know nothing of LOTR.

LOTR is 6,475,124,889,021,142 times better than Harry Potter. You should watch the films, they're epic.

To answer your question: F U, get them yourself.

Originally posted by Robtard
LOTR is 6,475,124,889,021,142 times better than Harry Potter. You should watch the films, they're epic.

To answer your question: F U, get them yourself.

You moron: it's 953,467,954,114,363 times better because that's the largest known motzkin prime.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You moron: it's 953,467,954,114,363 times better because that's the largest known motzkin prime.

I have no idea what you just said, kid. But agreed.

Well, i dont think counseling would help much, as he would kill the therapist.........


Also, it took an elf that could put MORGOTH under a spell and a dog who the Valar said would never die until he met the most dangerous dog to ever live (or something along those lines, it was a huge one Morgoth raised, and hand fed man flesh to it)

Oh. The "movie screen feats only" rule is back in action. That seems to be somewhat oddly placed here, provided you follow up with this:



Brilliant. So when I call you out on sticking to the "movie feats only" rule, that suddenly is an "asinine avenue of discussion"? That's your way to deal with my arguments, pal. Again "hypocrite" is the only word to describe your behaviour here. Either that, or you pretty stubborn or pretty stupid. Your choice.



Or, in short, nothing that the Master Chief will manage to do, right? Right. Thanks for playing.



You agree?
Then, please: Go and give a list of Master Chiefs feats that he uses in every single fight he's in - otherwise, they don't count (see your Witch King argument). Take care and especially demonstrated his skill with the energy blade against opponents compareable in strength and power to Sauron (aka creatures not existing in the Haloverse), because otherwise you don't have a point here. Good luck with establishing the Master Chiefs skill and strength with a blade by listing his blade feats only and nothing else. Because everything else would be speculation, right?



I have absolutely no patience for people who try to sell of their ignorance as "logic", while torpeding logic wherever they can. This while performing the same thing they don't want to see in my posts (speculation) in order to come up with their own argument. I totally dislike hypocrites. So if you want me to be friendly, simply don't act like an idiot. If you do, you will be treated like one. I consider that a fair offer, that you can accept or - not accept. But if you make the latter choice, don't blame the results on me.

That aside: Some off my writing may come off more hostile than it is meant to be, because:
a) English isn't my primary language.
b) I usually exaggerate comments to put an emphasis on my views and arguments, which is usually not ment to insult people on a personal level. I don't take internet discussion too seriously and I expect that other people also don't get upset because of some verbal jab at an internet forum.

Cross-feats are allowed for like characters in these fights, eg 'all Jedi can force-push in MVF fights', even the ones that didn't specifically use that power in the films. Unless stated it's a character specific-power, or a power that only comes with attaining a certain level of power. This was done to lower the lameness in the debates and the nitpicking.

So the Spartans' feats in Halo Legends 3, 5 and 7 would count, as Master Chief is a like character.

Master Chief was also in 4 of the shorts, if you're talking about appearances. Though he didn't do anything in 1 and 2.