Steve Rogers vs Frank Castle

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Bentley
Equal bodies. Straight h2h.

Fight on a naval base.

StiltmanFTW
"Not against you."

*Steve rapes*

Sin I AM
Thats because he knows he cant compete...id give him 3 outta 10 for fighting dirty

iceman24567
Frank ends up getting koed

StiltmanFTW
http://forumimages.somethingawful.com/customtitles/title-boltvanderhuge.gif for the win

Eternal Idol
This would be like fighting a version of yourself that can fight better than you.

Steve wins.

iceman24567
^Exactly

StiltmanFTW
Agreed.

the ninjak
Frank wouldn't fight with his heart in it anyways.

He worships Cap. Cap hates Frank.

iceman24567
I wouldnt say he hates him

the ninjak
New Cap sure, but after Civil War it's safe to say Rogers does.

iceman24567
He just hates how he operates he also has problems with Wolverines killing issues

StiltmanFTW
Yes. He doesn't hate the man himself, he hates his methods. He knows Punisher is sick.

the ninjak
Yeah but Logan has that mutant Lycan Samurai redeemer Xman thing going for him.

Castle is a psycho vigilante who guides his attention to criminals.

Deadline
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Thats because he knows he cant compete...id give him 3 outta 10 for fighting dirty

No it wasn't it was because he respected him. In that series he took on people who could beat Steve in h2h. Steve wins though.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Deadline
No it wasn't it was because he respected him. In that series he took on people who could beat Steve in h2h. Steve wins though. In everyone's series there have been villains/heroes taken on that would beat a person who should beat the character of the series focus.

Deadline
Originally posted by Uriel005
In everyone's series there have been villains/heroes taken on that would beat a person who should beat the character of the series focus.

Of course but if you read the series you would be able to tell he could give Steve a good fight.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Deadline
Of course but if you read the series you would be able to tell he could give Steve a good fight. A good fight to be sure but Steve just has too many tricks for Frank

Deadline
Originally posted by Uriel005
A good fight to be sure but Steve just has too many tricks for Frank

You know what considering that Steve doesnt have the SSS I'm making it 5/10. Steve doesn't have his shield or armour hes not more dangerous than Daredevil without the SSS and his shield.

Not to mention this is on a naval base I can see Frank picking stuff up and using it against him. Sorry in that case I'm making it 6/10 to Frank. This sort of envinronment is more favorable to Frank.

jinzin
laughing out loud



oooooooh boy.... roll eyes (sarcastic)





Anyways.... Rogers FTW.

Lord_Talron
yea, if it had been an army base, frank wouldve been screwed.

Deadline
Originally posted by Lord_Talron
yea, if it had been an army base, frank wouldve been screwed.

Steve Rogers doesn't have the SSS. Daredevil has a hard enough time with Punisher and Steve without SSS isn't better than DD. Another important point is that non of the versions of Punisher that DD faced where as good as Punisher is now.

If you read Punisher comics he frequently uses the envinronment to his advantage and hes a dirtier fighter than Cap.

Its really not that complicated.

jinzin
Complicated? You're right... It certainly isn't. Isn't at all complicated to see that if Crossbones can't beat Steve without the SSS then Frank doing so based soley on the fact that he's a dirty fighter (like Crossbones) is out and out asinine.

being a dirty fighter doesn't somehow give Frank an edge to someone who's his superior... If that was the case Captain America SSS or not would have a LOT more problems on his hands with his rogues gallery.

Punisher is getting a beating in this fight.. and while his damage soak dictates that it will probably be a lonnng beating, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty straight forward one sided fight.

Frank can hang sure, but he can't win... not for the majority.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://forumimages.somethingawful.com/customtitles/title-boltvanderhuge.gif for the win

LIEFIELD!!!!




FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Deadline
Originally posted by jinzin
Complicated? You're right... It certainly isn't. Isn't at all complicated to see that if Crossbones can't beat Steve without the SSS then Frank doing so based soley on the fact that he's a dirty fighter (like Crossbones) is out and out asinine.


Not really. Frank has a better h2h showings than Crossbones, when Steve didn't have the SSS Steve had to resort to using dirty tactics to win. Crossbones could have certainly won if he used dirty tactics.

Originally posted by jinzin

being a dirty fighter doesn't somehow give Frank an edge to someone who's his superior...


Cap without the SSS isn't vastly superior to current Punisher. Crossbones nearly beat Cap without SSS, Crossbones isn't better than Punisher. Its worked fine against alot of people.

Originally posted by jinzin

If that was the case Captain America SSS or not would have a LOT more problems on his hands with his rogues gallery.

No he wouldn't comics clearly show that Punisher is a threat to Cap. Hes actually gunned him down twice, hes outsmarted him and hes come up with tactical plans superior to Cap. You're probably going to argue all these cases are PIS, thats not debating anybody can do that.

For starters hes come closer to killing Cap than Crossbones has and has better h2h feats and Crossbones is one of his main enemies.

Originally posted by jinzin

Punisher is getting a beating in this fight.. and while his damage soak dictates that it will probably be a lonnng beating, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty straight forward one sided fight.

Frank can hang sure, but he can't win... not for the majority.

I'm not sure if hanging and having a one-sided fight are the same thing. I think you're making assumptions based on Mike Baron Punisher, Garth Einnis and Punisher vs Daredevil. None of those versions are superior to how Punisher is written by Remender. If any of those writers were currently writing Punisher he clearly loses the majority.

Actually theres something about his current situation that would make Punisher lose the majority but prior to him becoming Frankencastle Punisher wins the majority.

Juk3n
Originally posted by jinzin

Punisher is getting a beating in this fight.. and while his damage soak dictates that it will probably be a lonnng beating, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty straight forward one sided fight.

Frank can hang sure, but he can't win... not for the majority.

^ agreed. Frank gets cheesed. It's like creamed, but it just goes on a bit longer.

Being a dirty fighter, fighting againt someone who is phsyically and skillfully superior who KNOWS you're a dirty fighter isn't really that much more of a help. On a forum fight in a feat war id say Cap parries and counters everymove Frank makes, hitting for twice the power he's being hit with and hitting more frequently, whilst having a more resilient body and a will to match. Theres nothing to suggest Frank takes anything close to approaching a majority. Steve is just better. Bucky would be a much closer fight.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Steve Rogers.

Deadline
Originally posted by Juk3n
^ agreed. Frank gets cheesed. It's like creamed, but it just goes on a bit longer.

Being a dirty fighter, fighting againt someone who is phsyically and skillfully superior who KNOWS you're a dirty fighter isn't really that much more of a help.


Daredevil knows hes a dirty fighter look how far that got him. Hes also been shown to be tacticaly supeior to Cap so it's still an issue. I also think he knew that Crossbones was a dirty fighter when he first fought him....well he soon found out anyway.

Originally posted by Juk3n
On a forum fight in a feat war id say Cap parries and counters everymove Frank makes, hitting for twice the power he's being hit with and hitting more frequently, whilst having a more resilient body and a will to match. Theres nothing to suggest Frank takes anything close to approaching a majority. Steve is just better. Bucky would be a much closer fight.

You still haven't disproven that dirty fighting will be a factor. You're forgetting that hes held his own against opponents that could beat Cap without the SSS and in two of those cases he was at a disadvantage.

Like alot of people in this thread you are probably basing your arguments on Garth Einnis, 80s Punisher and Pun vs DD faulty logic none of those versions of Punisher are as tough as he is now.

Trackz
equal bodies? closer fight than people think just for the fact frank fights dirty, and that shouldn't be written off, that style of fighting has allowed Frank to compete with Daken and Deadpool. He shouldn't take the majority, but it's a good fight.

Bentley
I kind of wonder if this "Frank is better than Crossbones" is a forum consensus.

Deadline
Originally posted by Trackz
He shouldn't take the majority, but it's a good fight.

I don't see why not, Crossbones nearly beat Cap is Crossbones superior to Punisher? Is Cap vastly superior to Daken and Kraven? Both those guys could beat Cap without the SSS. Not to mention in both those cases he was at a disadvantage.


Originally posted by Bentley
I kind of wonder if this "Frank is better than Crossbones" is a forum consensus.

Forum consensus don't mean shit (well not all the time thats for sure) really, and no it obvoulsy isn't. People are probably assuming that Crossbones is better without evaluating the evidence.

-Pr-
Rogers.

SuperiorTech
Steve Rogers

Trackz
what's steve going to do when frank bites his nose off?

Deadline
Ouch, not sure if he'd go that far.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Trackz
what's steve going to do when frank bites his nose off? Thank him for the increased flow of oxygen and shorter distance for air to reach his lungs.

jinzin
Originally posted by Deadline
Not really. Frank has a better h2h showings than Crossbones, when Steve didn't have the SSS Steve had to resort to using dirty tactics to win. Crossbones could have certainly won if he used dirty tactics.
Yeah? No he doesn't.

Crossbones has high end showings against Cap, Bucky, Bullseye, and an albeit worn DD.

Crossbones FIGHTS DIRTY... no expression



Originally posted by Deadline
Cap without the SSS isn't vastly superior to current Punisher.
In skill? He's superior enough that "dirty fighting" isn't enough of a gimmick to give Frank the win.

Originally posted by Deadline
Crossbones nearly beat Cap without SSS, Crossbones isn't better than Punisher. Its worked fine against alot of people.
Against a lot of people? Like what? Daken?
It's not enough to give Frank a definite edge over Rogers.



Originally posted by Deadline
No he wouldn't comics clearly show that Punisher is a threat to Cap. Hes actually gunned him down twice, hes outsmarted him and hes come up with tactical plans superior to Cap. You're probably going to argue all these cases are PIS, thats not debating anybody can do that.

laughing out loud

Thank you for presuming my argument for me stuffing words into my mouth.. roll eyes (sarcastic)

No one said Punisher isn't a threat to Cap.. he's just not superior to Cap with or without the SSS and he's DEFINITELY NOT superior because of a gimmick like dirty fighting. no expression


Punisher gunning Cap down.... NOT analogous to a h2h fight.
Punisher having better warzone tactics than Cap.. that's a toss-up and NOT analogous to a h2h fight.
Punisher being smarter than Cap?..... No. no expression



Originally posted by Deadline
For starters hes come closer to killing Cap than Crossbones has and has better h2h feats and Crossbones is one of his main enemies.
Having Cap at gun point isn't ANALOGOUS TO A H2H fight... which is specifically why I brought X bones up who has a plethora of h2h showings under his belt... and has had Cap at his mercy on at least 2 to 3 occassions now, you're being stubburn again.



Originally posted by Deadline
I'm not sure if hanging and having a one-sided fight are the same thing.

Then Look up Wolverine's fights with the Hulk.... They can be.. and in this case, they are.

Originally posted by Deadline
I think you're making assumptions based on Mike Baron Punisher, Garth Einnis and Punisher vs Daredevil. None of those versions are superior to how Punisher is written by Remender. If any of those writers were currently writing Punisher he clearly loses the majority.

Actually theres something about his current situation that would make Punisher lose the majority but prior to him becoming Frankencastle Punisher wins the majority.

laughing out loud

So now we get to pick and choose which writer's verion of Punisher we're using for this particular fight?

laughing


Oh Zone.... always good for a laugh man.

Rogers FTW.

jinzin
Originally posted by Bentley
I kind of wonder if this "Frank is better than Crossbones" is a forum consensus.

no

it honestly shouldn't be.

Bentley
Steve with the serum did fine in h2h against Deadpool if I recall correctly.

Trackz
Originally posted by Deadline
Ouch, not sure if he'd go that far. I'm joking...but he bit deadpools nose off and he bit dakens lip off...you never know

Deadline
Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah? No he doesn't.

Crossbones has high end showings against Cap, Bucky, Bullseye, and an albeit worn DD.

Crossbones FIGHTS DIRTY... no expression

Prove it. What high end showings does CB have against Cap? So does Punisher. CB has been owned by Bucky and hes been owned by Bucky while having Sin to back him up, hes also been owned by Cap while having Red Skull to back him up. Hes got one high end showing against Bullseye, so that makes him better than him at h2h? Hes got a high end showing against a worn out DD? So let me get this straight CB having a high end showing against a worn DD is better than Punisher doing well against DD when hes NOT worn and in some of those cases Punisher was injured? Does that sound objective?



Originally posted by jinzin
In skill? He's superior enough that "dirty fighting" isn't enough of a gimmick to give Frank the win.


You need to disprove that like I said its worked against alot of people.

Originally posted by jinzin

Against a lot of people? Like what? Daken?
It's not enough to give Frank a definite edge over Rogers.



Absolutely because if it worked against Daken, Deadpool, Daredevil, Cyborg Russian, Wolverine, Kraven The Hunter and lots of other people its not going to work against Cap without the SSS. thumb up




Originally posted by jinzin

Punisher gunning Cap down.... NOT analogous to a h2h fight.
Punisher having better warzone tactics than Cap.. that's a toss-up and NOT analogous to a h2h fight.
Punisher being smarter than Cap?..... No. no expression


Tactics can be used in h2h and Punisher has done this.


Originally posted by jinzin


Having Cap at gun point isn't ANALOGOUS TO A H2H fight...

You missed the bit where he evaded a suprise attack and blocked and stopped his shield.



Originally posted by jinzin


which is specifically why I brought X bones up who has a plethora of h2h showings under his belt... and has had Cap at his mercy on at least 2 to 3 occassions now, you're being stubburn again.


You haven't proven hes superior. Oh he has he? Wasn't one of those circumstances when CB had a energy beam firing out of his face?




Originally posted by jinzin


So now we get to pick and choose which writer's verion of Punisher we're using for this particular fight?



*sigh* Mike Baron stated that he wanted Punisher to be more realistic. Realistic = weaker. Read Punisher warzone under Chuck Dixon, there are numerous ocassions of him getting beaten up by thugs. Not to mention that under Garth Einnis he nearly got killed by Mafia goons. You really think that current Punisher would lose to thugs after killing a whole group of enhanced highly trained mercenaries and beating martial artists with chi ampage?


What other versions of Punisher have a gone up against Daken with a broken leg? What other versions of Punisher have gone up against an A-list MA after going through a gauntlet of superheroes. What other versions of Punisher have feats better than this?


Originally posted by Deadline
This is probably Punisher’s best damage soak showing and this doesn’t even show you all of it. Punisher shows toon like damage soak and even before all this he hadn’t slept in weeks.

Punisher takes a punch from Leetha, not sure how strong she is but she was shown lifting a coach full of people above her head.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8994/punclass10shot1.th.jpg

Then gets a full force punch from a blood lusted Spiderman
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8572/puntakesclass10shot2.th.jpg


Gets thrown by Spiderman into the air…just see how high up he is and lands on a ****ing car bonnet.
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9373/punfallsoncar1.th.jpghttp://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3424/punfallsoncar2.th.jpg

Then gets hit by a car…LOL. Its like roadrunner cartoon.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/492/punhitbycar.th.jpg

After that he gets kicked in the stomache by Spiderman and pulls of one hell of trick shot, but that’s in the gunskills section of this thread.

So yea Punisher can vary drastically according to the writer.

Trackz
Originally posted by Juk3n
^ agreed. Frank gets cheesed. It's like creamed, but it just goes on a bit longer.

Being a dirty fighter, fighting againt someone who is phsyically and skillfully superior who KNOWS you're a dirty fighter isn't really that much more of a help. On a forum fight in a feat war id say Cap parries and counters everymove Frank makes, hitting for twice the power he's being hit with and hitting more frequently, whilst having a more resilient body and a will to match. Theres nothing to suggest Frank takes anything close to approaching a majority. Steve is just better. Bucky would be a much closer fight. steve isn't physically superior in this fight though

Deadline
Oh and CB doesn't fight as dirty as Punisher.

jinzin
Originally posted by Deadline
Prove it. What high end showings does CB have against Cap? So does Punisher. CB has been owned by Bucky and hes been owned by Bucky while having Sin to back him up, hes also been owned by Cap while having Red Skull to back him up. Hes got one high end showing against Bullseye, so that makes him better than him at h2h? Hes got a high end showing against a worn out DD? So let me get this straight CB having a high end showing against a worn DD is better than Punisher doing well against DD when hes NOT worn and in some of those cases Punisher was injured? Does that sound objective?

Oh for ****'s sake.. Here we go again, alright Zone, I'll deal with this nonsense later....maybe within the week or next.





Originally posted by Deadline
You need to disprove that like I said its worked against alot of people.
No I don't need to prove a negative, you need to prove that it works in the first place.

If fighting dirty was enough of an edge to beat Cap in a h2h he would have WAY more serious issues with his rogues gallery including the likes of Red Skull, Crossbones, and a number of others....

It's worked against a lot of people who aren't Cap in a LOT of circumstantial situations... Sweet.


Originally posted by Deadline
Absolutely because if it worked against Daken, Deadpool, Daredevil, Cyborg Russian, Wolverine, Kraven The Hunter and lots of other people its not going to work against Cap without the SSS. thumb up
Daken killed him... so it didn't work against him... and that was after blowing Daken up.
Deadpool? What when DP was toying around with him?
Daredevil tools Punisher quite a bit to be honest. And Punisher has flat out stated he can't compete with DD's skillset.. His only advantage in his fights with Punisher is his insane capacity to soak up damage....
but guess what.."equal bodies" works both ways in this thread.
The Russian is not even remotely comparable to a top tier like Cap.
Wolverine? In one Ennis book where Punisher had a mass of weaponry he doesn't have in this thread in a fight he also admitted he was getting pieced.
Kraven's a mook half the time so I barely even recognize that crap.

Basically you've provided crapola here... good job.






Originally posted by Deadline
Tactics can be used in h2h and Punisher has done this. And he doesn't have better h2h tactics than Cap... It's not a matter up for debate.




Originally posted by Deadline
You missed the bit where he evaded a suprise attack and blocked and stopped his shield. No.. YOU missed the bit where none of that compares to a h2h fight.


Originally posted by Deadline
You haven't proven hes superior. Oh he has he? Wasn't one of those circumstances when CB had a energy beam firing out of his face?
Having Cap at his mercy or stalemated in h2h IS superior to what Punisher's accomplished...

Besides that, I don't have to prove he's superior.. just comparible, and that fighting dirty isn't something that gives him an edge... it isn't.






Originally posted by Deadline
*sigh* Mike Baron stated that he wanted Punisher to be more realistic. Realistic = weaker. Read Punisher warzone under Chuck Dixon, there are numerous ocassions of him getting beaten up by thugs. Not to mention that under Garth Einnis he nearly got killed by Mafia goons. You really think that current Punisher would lose to thugs after killing a whole group of enhanced highly trained mercenaries and beating martial artists with chi ampage?


What other versions of Punisher have a gone up against Daken with a broken leg? What other versions of Punisher have gone up against an A-list MA after going through a gauntlet of superheroes. What other versions of Punisher have feats better than this?




So yea Punisher can vary drastically according to the writer.

*sigh* indeed...

Punisher CAN vary drastically according to the writer as ANY character.... OBVIOUSLY.

I'm not equating Punisher to a bunch of thugs... so STOP WITH THE PRESUMPTIONS.

The fact is that in spite of ignoring his lower showings, his higher showings are not on a level of skill that properly match up with Cap... he has nice showings.... but they're not Cap's level...
Fighting dirty doesn't bring him to Cap's level....


I love how when it was Wolverine vs. Cap we had to be subjected to your nonsense about Cap's hundreds upon hundreds of years of battle experience and ability to incap bricks and hurt Korvac.... but in a thread with Punisher.... well.... "Frank fights dirty so he wins"...... naturally... roll eyes (sarcastic)

More funny still is that you bid me to ignore the possibility of PIS in regards to Punisher being "smarter or more tactical" than Cap.... funny because I vaguely remember a bid to PIS being EXACTLY your defense to Wolverine getting the tactical advantage over Cap...



You realize the whole last part of your post doesn't exactly make a strong case for Punisher right?

Parmaniac
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yes. He doesn't hate the man himself, he hates his methods. He knows Punisher is sick. What are you talking man, the guy's a saint.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Deadline
Not really. Frank has a better h2h showings than Crossbones, when Steve didn't have the SSS Steve had to resort to using dirty tactics to win. Crossbones could have certainly won if he used dirty tactics.

Originally posted by Deadline
Oh and CB doesn't fight as dirty as Punisher.
So, what you're saying is... when Castle fights dirty, it's a brilliant strategy and a sign of great fighting prowess... but whenever Rogers has fought dirty to win a fight, it's a sign of cowardice and weakness?

mmm

Juk3n
*holds hands up - didnt read the OP. Equal Bodies..ok, Fighting IQ id still give to Cap, if this was a 'locate and capture' contest then id prolly go with Punisher. Daredevil is considered the epitome of a Peak human skillful, finesse using martial artist, and tbh, there have been a number of occasions where Frank sheer physicality and fighting prowess overcome DD's sheer 'technical ma' skill advantage. Personally i thinkDD should resort to Nerve striking characters he has such a large skill gap over instead of being written to seeming slug it out. But the panels are the feats and feats support that Frank can hang with DD, someone who is written to be skillful first and abrute second, as punisher is written to be a brute first and skillful second.

Id put DD above an SSS-less Cap, reason being in there encounters Caps Stat advantage does come into play, rather than any sort of ma skill advantage.

On a physical levl Cap will still be able to manuver the way he does, but the loss in speed and striking power will mean that he's tagged far more. If it was a points bout in a dojo id have to give Cap the nod. In an alley no holds barred, id give him 6/maybe7/ same as DD. Punisher does have SOME cards up his sleeve i'll admit that.

jinzin
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
So, what you're saying is... when Castle fights dirty, it's a brilliant strategy and a sign of great fighting prowess... but whenever Rogers has fought dirty to win a fight, it's a sign of cowardice and weakness?

mmm

laughing out loud

I was just about to mention that hypocritical nonsense too....

Funny how his "logic" "works" eh? eek!

jinzin
Originally posted by Juk3n
*holds hands up - didnt read the OP. Equal Bodies..ok, Fighting IQ id still give to Cap, if this was a 'locate and capture' contest then id prolly go with Punisher. Daredevil is considered the epitome of a Peak human skillful, finesse using martial artist, and tbh, there have been a number of occasions where Frank sheer physicality and fighting prowess overcome DD's sheer 'technical ma' skill advantage. Personally i thinkDD should resort to Nerve striking characters he has such a large skill gap over instead of being written to seeming slug it out. But the panels are the feats and feats support that Frank can hang with DD, someone who is written to be skillful first and abrute second, as punisher is written to be a brute first and skillful second.

Id put DD above an SSS-less Cap, reason being in there encounters Caps Stat advantage does come into play, rather than any sort of ma skill advantage.

On a physical levl Cap will still be able to manuver the way he does, but the loss in speed and striking power will mean that he's tagged far more. If it was a points bout in a dojo id have to give Cap the nod. In an alley no holds barred, id give him 6/maybe7/ same as DD. Punisher does have SOME cards up his sleeve i'll admit that.

Again though, the reason that Punisher tends to hang with DD or breat him usually ends up being due to as you put, his sheer physicality and his damage soak... But that's the whole issue with this thread being "equal bodies" it works both ways.

If you gave DD his skillset and Punisher's body he wouldn't be losing any fights to Punsher. And that's practically what you have here.

The only difference being that Caps even less of a boyscout that DD is.

IMO he still wrecks Castle in this thread.

Juk3n
Originally posted by jinzin
If you gave DD his skillset and Punisher's body he wouldn't be losing any fights to Punsher. And that's practically what you have here.



makes sense.

Badabing
Originally posted by Bentley
Equal bodies. Straight h2h.

Fight on a naval base. Steve wins. He's a better and more experienced fighter.

Anyone who says otherwise is either making things up or is the artist formerly known as Alfheim.

capameridur

Parmaniac
Originally posted by Badabing
Steve wins. He's a better and more experienced fighter.

Anyone who says otherwise is either making things up or is the autist formerly known as Alfheim.

capameridur fixed smile

-Pr-
warned.

Parmaniac
ahah

jinzin
Originally posted by Badabing
Steve wins. He's a better and more experienced fighter.

Anyone who says otherwise is either making things up or is the artist formerly known as Alfheim.

capameridur

laughing out loud


Classic.

Badabing
Originally posted by jinzin
laughing out loud


Classic. biscuits

Deadline
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
So, what you're saying is... when Castle fights dirty, it's a brilliant strategy and a sign of great fighting prowess... but whenever Rogers has fought dirty to win a fight, it's a sign of cowardice and weakness?

mmm

If you assume that a person is being illogical before the debate has started you're going to create arguments that the person isn't making. Try to read what im saying first analyse it then come to a decision, don't make your mind up before the debate has started. You do this alot, yea I have a feeling somebody is going to make a certain argument.

Originally posted by Juk3n
*holds hands up - didnt read the OP. Equal Bodies..ok, Fighting IQ id still give to Cap, if this was a 'locate and capture' contest then id prolly go with Punisher. Daredevil is considered the epitome of a Peak human skillful, finesse using martial artist, and tbh, there have been a number of occasions where Frank sheer physicality and fighting prowess overcome DD's sheer 'technical ma' skill advantage. Personally i thinkDD should resort to Nerve striking characters he has such a large skill gap over instead of being written to seeming slug it out. But the panels are the feats and feats support that Frank can hang with DD, someone who is written to be skillful first and abrute second, as punisher is written to be a brute first and skillful second.

Id put DD above an SSS-less Cap, reason being in there encounters Caps Stat advantage does come into play, rather than any sort of ma skill advantage.

On a physical levl Cap will still be able to manuver the way he does, but the loss in speed and striking power will mean that he's tagged far more. If it was a points bout in a dojo id have to give Cap the nod. In an alley no holds barred, id give him 6/maybe7/ same as DD. Punisher does have SOME cards up his sleeve i'll admit that.


Again is Crossbones better than Punisher, do you understand the relevance of this point? If Crossbones nearly beat Cap without the SSS why are you arguing Punisher loses the majority? No offence you're dodging points.

Also Punisher is alot better now.

StiltmanFTW
Punisher is a very underrated h2h combatant, but he doesn't hold a candle to Cap, IMO.

Silent Master
Regarding Crossbones fighting Steve w/o the SSS, are you talking about the Streets of Poison arc? If so, IIRC Cap was just hours removed from a full body blood transfusion. I doubt he was at 100%

Deadline
Originally posted by Silent Master
Regarding Crossbones fighting Steve w/o the SSS, are you talking about the Streets of Poison arc? If so, IIRC Cap was just hours removed from a full body blood transfusion. I doubt he was at 100%

and one of Crossbones arms was injured and had bandages on it. Cap even pointed out he was favouring one side. Neither of them were 100%.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Punisher is a very underrated h2h combatant, but he doesn't hold a candle to Cap, IMO.

Thats probably because your basing that opinion on pre PWJ Fraction/Remender.

This is one of the points nobody seems to get, hes tougher than hes ever been.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Deadline
and one of Crossbones arms was injured and had bandages on it. Cap even pointed out he was favouring one side. Neither of them were 100%.



Thats probably because your basing that opinion on pre PWJ Fraction/Remender.

This is one of the points nobody seems to get, hes tougher than hes ever been. ... Cap is acknowledged as one of the worlds premiere Martial Artists not on style but through years of experience he's put together a system that works and is still leaps and bounds ahead of bucky IMO who's about = Frank. I know A>B>C doesn't necessarily work but in this case considering he basically taught bucky everything and he hasn't surpassed non-SSS cap I think the assumption is safe to make.

Deadline
Originally posted by Uriel005
... Cap is acknowledged as one of the worlds premiere Martial Artists not on style but through years of experience he's put together a system that works and is still leaps and bounds ahead of bucky IMO who's about = Frank. I know A>B>C doesn't necessarily work but in this case considering he basically taught bucky everything and he hasn't surpassed non-SSS cap I think the assumption is safe to make.

I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Cap without the SSS > Bucky based on the fact he taught him everything he knows? Thats not even true for starters. Why are you focusing on Bucky?

Uriel005
Originally posted by Deadline
I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Cap without the SSS > Bucky based on the fact he taught him everything he knows? Thats not even true for starters. Why are you focusing on Bucky? Because I consider him about = crossbones

Marvelknight
This is a great concept. But considering Steve's overall skill set, and the fact that recently he beat down three men (all with the same Super Soldier Serum as Steve, even stronger and faster than him) at the same time. If Steve and Frank have equal bodies. Steve still will have the same fighting advantages without the other physical advantages prior.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Deadline
If you assume that a person is being illogical before the debate has started you're going to create arguments that the person isn't making. Try to read what im saying first analyse it then come to a decision, don't make your mind up before the debate has started. You do this alot, yea I have a feeling somebody is going to make a certain argument.
I didn't assume a thing until I read a few of your posts. I even quoted two posts which seem to indicate the contradiction I'm seeing in your argument. You see, the thing is, you tend to make illogical arguments in threads where Castle is clearly the underdog.

All else being equal, Captain America is still a much better fighter than the Punisher--who though often criminally underrated in h2h, is simply outclassed here. That alone tells me Castle would get his ass kicked.

Dum Dum Dugan
anyone notice deadline not responding to jinzin. I wonder why..........

Badabing
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
anyone notice deadline not responding to jinzin. I wonder why.......... He has him blocked? dur


stick out tongue

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Badabing
He has him blocked? dur


stick out tongue
think it funny that he blocks him right after jinzin puts a pwning on him, sore loser he must be big grin .



lol

Deadline
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I didn't assume a thing until I read a few of your posts. I even quoted two posts which seem to indicate the contradiction I'm seeing in your argument.


I'll explain it to you. Yes Punisher using dirty tactics is a sign of good strategy because thats what he always does even when he can beat a person in h2h. Heres an example.

Originally posted by Deadline
VII. MARTIAL ARTS


Lulz, not a showing but it just shows Punisher fighting philosophy. Fight dirty.
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9026/lulzgu.th.jpg



He didn't need to do that, he could have beaten the guy in h2h. Its his philsophy and his whole approach to fighting.

See what Punisher says about Captain America here. Punishers approach to fighting and tactics is different from Cap, Punisher tends to fight dirty be default Cap doesn't.


http://img94.imageshack.us/f/puncapcompare1.jpg/

The reason why Cap used a certain technique to beat Crossbones was because he was a formidable opponent. Obvoulsy the point that Crossbones isn't better than Punisher has gone completely over your head. No where does it mean that hes a coward (yea my favourite character is a coward...thats the point I was trying to make) thats something you invented, if you want to interpret that as weakness and get into a semantic debate with me, go ahead.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

You see, the thing is, you tend to make illogical arguments in threads where Castle is clearly the underdog.

No, yet again for the 100th time you misunderstood the point I was making in the first place because you're too busy trying to win. Whats really interesting is that you're so busy trying to find wholes in my argument you don't even realsie that even if it was a contradiction that doesn't mean that Punisher can't win the majority because nobodys proven that Crossbones is better.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol



All else being equal, Captain America is still a much better fighter than the Punisher--who though often criminally underrated in h2h, is simply outclassed here. That alone tells me Castle would get his ass kicked.

Im afraid your dodging points, I don't want to go over them again because I don't want to respond to both you and jinzin at the same time.



Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
think it funny that he blocks him right after jinzin puts a pwning on him, sore loser he must be big grin .



lol

Um I'm busy I'm going to have a field with his post. Also please try not to back him up without thinking, you don't have to agree with everything he says. I was going to list some of his arguments here but I don't want this thread to get too crowded.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Deadline
I'll explain it to you. Yes Punisher using dirty tactics is a sign of good strategy because thats what he always does even when he can beat a person in h2h. Heres an example.



He didn't need to do that, he could have beaten the guy in h2h. Its his philsophy and his whole approach to fighting.

See what Punisher says about Captain America here. Punishers approach to fighting and tactics is different from Cap, Punisher tends to fight dirty be default Cap doesn't.


The reason why Cap used a certain technique to beat Crossbones was because he was a formidable opponent. Obvoulsy the point that Crossbones isn't better than Punisher has gone completely over your head. No where does it mean that hes a coward (yea my favourite character is a coward...thats the point I was trying to make) thats something you invented, if you want to interpret that as weakness and get into a semantic debate with me, go ahead.



No, yet again for the 100th time you misunderstood the point I was making in the first place because you're too busy trying to win. Whats really interesting is that you're so busy trying to find wholes in my argument you don't even realsie that even if it was a contradiction that doesn't mean that Punisher can't win the majority because nobodys proven that Crossbones is better.



Im afraid your dodging points, I don't want to go over them again because I don't want to respond to both you and jinzin at the same time.

yawn

How about you prove Castle is better than Crossbones in h2h? If you could, I'd be more open to your argument for Castle against Rogers. I can't see Castle doing better than 5/10 split at best.

Deadline
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
yawn

How about you prove Castle is better than Crossbones in h2h? If you could, I'd be more open to your argument for Castle against Rogers. I can't see Castle doing better than 5/10 split at best.

Concession accepted. I'm actually in the process of replying to jinzins post but maybe I'll respond to yours instead. Well for starters Crossbones doesn't have better feats. Hes had Cap at an advantage but he had a super power, Punisher has had DD at an advantage while being injured. Having Cap at an advantage is better than fighting Daken with a broken leg and other problems. Having Cap at an advantage isn't better than stalemating Kraven after going through a gauntelt of heroes and blacking out before the fight.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Deadline
Concession accepted. I'm actually in the process of replying to jinzins post but maybe I'll respond to yours instead. Well for starters Crossbones doesn't have better feats. Hes had Cap at an advantage but he had a super power, Punisher has had DD at an advantage while being injured. Having Cap at an advantage is better than fighting Daken with a broken leg and other problems. Having Cap at an advantage isn't better than stalemating Kraven after going through a gauntelt of heroes and blacking out before the fight.

5/10 against Crossbones, I meant. Crossbones doesn't have nearly as many appearances as Castle though, so of course Frank's going to have more and better feats. But what he does have puts him somewhere near Cap's league, which is definitely above Castle.

Punisher's h2h feats often owe more to his physicality than his skill. Against Rogers, Castle has no advantages since the thread stipulations state both of them have equal bodies. It's just like I stated in my first post--it's like he's fighting a better version of himself.

Deadline
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
5/10 against Crossbones, I meant. Crossbones doesn't have nearly as many appearances as Castle though, so of course Frank's going to have more and better feats.

Temugin and Mandarin have less appearances than Crossbones and they beat Punisher in h2h and Crossbones in h2h, so that logic doesn't work. Crossbone still has enough appearances and if we look at both Punisher feats and Crossbones, Punisher comes out on top.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

But what he does have puts him somewhere near Cap's league, which is definitely above Castle.

You sure about that? What about getting owned by Cap while having Red Skull to back him up? Getting owned by Bucky? Getting owned by Bucky while having Sin to back him up? In fact I think hes only held his own against Cap with the SSS once, one other time he had a superpower.

Please don't make statements without backing them up. This is a problem with this thread. You just stated that its defintely above Castle, you have to prove that, you haven't.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Punisher's h2h feats often owe more to his physicality than his skill.


Its both actually.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Against Rogers, Castle has no advantages since the thread stipulations state both of them have equal bodies. It's just like I stated in my first post--it's like he's fighting a better version of himself.

Yes he does, with equal bodies he can take more punishment and he can use the envinronment to help him. Cap loses the SSS advantage.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Deadline
Temugin and Mandarin have less appearances than Crossbones and they beat Punisher in h2h and Crossbones in h2h, so that logic doesn't work. Crossbone still has enough appearances and if we look at both Punisher feats and Crossbones, Punisher comes out on top.
Castle is definitely better with weapons and strategy, but they seem roughly even in physicality, except for damage soak. I'd give the h2h edge to Crossbones, but I'll wait for scans to comment further on that.


Originally posted by Deadline
You sure about that? What about getting owned by Cap while having Red Skull to back him up? Getting owned by Bucky? Getting owned by Bucky while having Sin to back him up? In fact I think hes only held his own against Cap with the SSS once, one other time he had a superpower.

Please don't make statements without backing them up. This is a problem with this thread. You just stated that its defintely above Castle, you have to prove that, you haven't.

Captain America is a beast, so Crossbones and the Red Skull losing to him doesn't take anything away from either, nor does it make Castle any better. I don't remember Crossbones/Sin vs. Bucky being strictly h2h, but I could be mistaken there. I'll see what I can do to dig up scans, but it might take a while.

Originally posted by Deadline
Its both actually.

Yes, but it owed more to his physicality than his skill.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yes he does, with equal bodies he can take more punishment and he can use the envinronment to help him. Cap loses the SSS advantage. With equal bodies, both have the same damage soak. And what could he use around him on a navy vessel? Nevermind that thread stipulations stated it's pure h2h.

Badabing
All things being equal, everyone agrees that Steve wins...except one poster. Shall I close?

Deadline
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Castle is definitely better with weapons and strategy, but they seem roughly even in physicality, except for damage soak. I'd give the h2h edge to Crossbones, but I'll wait for scans to comment further on that.


You could go to the Punisher capability thread, but I should be posting some later this week.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Captain America is a beast, so Crossbones and the Red Skull losing to him doesn't take anything away from either, nor does it make Castle any better. I don't remember Crossbones/Sin vs. Bucky being strictly h2h, but I could be mistaken there. I'll see what I can do to dig up scans, but it might take a while.

The point is you said he was near to Cap, that disproves it. It doesn't matter wether its not strictly h2h (within reason). Using that logic 99% of feats wouldn't be allowed and that would include Wolverine ones.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol


Yes, but it owed more to his physicality than his skill.

Maybe in some of them but theres alot where its both.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol


With equal bodies, both have the same damage soak.

No they don't, when has Cap ever fought an A-lister with a broken leg? Considering that I think taking class 100 shots are PIS I don't think he has better damage soak showings than Frank.



Originally posted by Eternal Idol


And what could he use around him on a navy vessel? Nevermind that thread stipulations stated it's pure h2h.

Im not entirely sure but considering the fact that hes consistently been able to find weapons in lots of different envinronments he most likely will. I mean hell theres bound to be something he can hit Cap with.

Badabing
Originally posted by Deadline
You could go to the Punisher capability thread, but I should be posting some later this week.



The point is you said he was near to Cap, that disproves it. It doesn't matter wether its not strictly h2h (within reason). Using that logic 99% of feats wouldn't be allowed and that would include Wolverine ones.




Maybe in some of them but theres alot where its both.



No they don't, when has Cap ever fought an A-lister with a broken leg? Considering that I think taking class 100 shots are PIS I don't think he has better damage soak showings than Frank.





Im not entirely sure but considering the fact that hes consistently been able to find weapons in lots of different envinronments he most likely will. I mean hell theres bound to be something he can hit Cap with. You're posts are mostly dodging the key points of this thread. The OP states...Originally posted by Bentley
Equal bodies. And you're trying to play up that Frank has better damage soak. That point is moot given the equal bodies stipulation. Aside from that, no amount of damage soak will compensate for Steve's superior skills.

That brings us to the next point. The OP states...Originally posted by Bentley
Straight h2h. Which Pr and I have ruled as strictly hand to hand combat. Yet you're saying Frank will use his surroundings. How, by hiding from Steve's ass whooping? It's not even a debate who's the better fighter. Heck, Steve was recently transformed to his 90 pound weakling body and took out several SS amped guards strictly on his skill.

Punisher is a better strategist... That's speculative and open to debate. After all, Steve led soldiers in WWII to several victories against enemies and enemy bases. Not to mention all the strategy Steve displayed as an Avenger.

So please tell me you have some concrete, canon evidence which shows that Frank is superior in h2h skills versus Steve. Because most of your posts appear to be angled at somehow changing circumstances and stipulations to make Frank win somehow. Your notion of me being "not funny" doesn't change a thing.

Deadline

Mindset
Cap wins

Badabing

Deadline
Originally posted by Badabing
Don't play coy with me. I'm not falling for your misdirection or linguistic legerdemain. sneer

They have equal physical stats and Steve is a better fighter. You are a Steve Rogers dodger!

Ok you got me again. durhulk This is more appropriate. sad

Badabing
evillaugh

Deadline
Got me good, got me real good.

Damn I was like wtf what the f*k is this? F*k with deadline day or something?

Deadline
Oh yeah in that case no majority for Punisher. I thought he could pick weapons up and such. 6/10 Cap.

Badabing
Originally posted by Deadline
F*k with deadline day mmm


mhmm


I'll ask Pr if we should have that day. Maybe Jinzin and Dum Dum would like to add their opinions? biscuits

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Deadline
and one of Crossbones arms was injured and had bandages on it. Cap even pointed out he was favouring one side. Neither of them were 100%.



Thats probably because your basing that opinion on pre PWJ Fraction/Remender.

This is one of the points nobody seems to get, hes tougher than hes ever been.

Fraction I didn't read.

Deadline
Meh wonder if I should still respond to some of jinzin's points? Threads boring now.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Badabing
mmm


mhmm


I'll ask Pr if we should have that day. Maybe Jinzin and Dum Dum would like to add their opinions? biscuits
I second the motion.

Eternal Idol
Bump

Punisher vs Crossbones

ha-som

Originally posted by tkitna
Why do the Punisher threads always deteriate into Frank versus Bullseye versus Daredevil?

Anyways, Crossbones owns him.



Originally posted by Deadline
...because he hasnt fought Crossbones H2H but hes fought DD and Bullseye H2H dummie.

and no Crossbones does not own him, he wins the majority but Frank doesnt get owned.
Originally posted by K3VIL
Frank will show is own, but Crossbones takes this 7/10.The guy has received no sort of enhancement and is a match for Cap, through physical training he became Peak Human, despite not being a true supersoldier, to me he's the man.Damn, he even spared Cap's life cause he saw his old enemy wasn't ok, Cap at the time was having visions of his past but distorted, and seeing he couldn't fight at the peak of his abilities, he sayed he wouldn't kill him with an advantage.



Originally posted by Deadline
Hes only a match for Cap if Cap is disadvantaged.....apart from the xample you have given Crossbones gave Steve a good fight when Cap didnt have the SSS.

Considering that Frank has stomped Bullseyes and BW, im giving it 6/10 to Crossbones. erm


snicker

Deadline
^ That thread was created in 2008 before it was pretty much obvious that Franks a beast. Punisher annual was in 2009 and so was Punisher The List.

Failed again for the 1000th time.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Deadline
^ That thread was created in 2008 before it was pretty much obvious that Franks a beast. Punisher annual was in 2009 and so was Punisher The List.

Failed again for the 1000th time. 2dedhorse

Deadline
^ Yea your right. I'm the one that bumped an old thread..oh no wait a minute..

jinzin
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
2dedhorse laughing out loud

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