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are we today justified in reworking something like huck finn to eliminate the 'n-word'? michael chabon weighs in here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2011/01/the-unspeakable-in-its-jammies/69369/

what do you guys think about the issue?

I think it's a mistake. This isn't just a classic novel, it also chronicles the times in which it was written. This is whitewashing, and it promotes ignorance.

It was a very comman word back in those days.If they want to change all the classic books such as "Gone with the Wind" and "Uncle Tom's Cabin" I wish them the best of luck
They use alot of words in both of those books beside the N word.I think people need to find something else to do then go around changing words in books there whole life it is such a waste of time.

the thing that gets me, is that, in trying to make it more "sensitive", they were going to change it to "slave".

Because calling someone a slave really doesn't bring up the same ghosts that ****** does /sigh

but ya, this kind of censorship is terrible. Canadian radio just censored "money for nothing" because of some fa-bombs

Originally posted by inimalist
but ya, this kind of censorship is terrible. Canadian radio just censored "money for nothing" because of some fa-bombs

If you count a bunch of broadcasters voluntarily deciding to not use the version of the song with ****** and play the band's other version as "censorship".

I heard it was a court ruling /shrug

but yes, the government isn't the only thing can can censor people

EDIT: in this case, it was a ruling from a non-governmental institution that, though volentarilly, determines what is fit for Canadian radio broadcast:

http://www.nationalpost.com/ Broadcast+council+rules+Dire+Straits+song+offensiv
e+Canadian+radio/4102526/story.html

that sounds exactly like a type of censorship, imho

Originally posted by leonidas
are we today justified in reworking something like huck finn to eliminate the 'n-word'?

Absolutely not.

I'm a pretty liberal guy, and I adore Mark Twain. I broke up with an ex once because they didn't know who Mark Twain was; not just hadn't read him, but had never heard of him, at all.

Originally posted by skekUng
I broke up with an ex once because they didn't know who Mark Twain was; not just hadn't read him, but had never heard of him, at all.

I assume we have the same problems meeting good women then?

Originally posted by inimalist
I assume we have the same problems meeting good women then?

Not anymore. But it has been difficult to meet good people in the past.

Originally posted by inimalist
I heard it was a court ruling /shrug

but yes, the government isn't the only thing can can censor people

EDIT: in this case, it was a ruling from a non-governmental institution that, though volentarilly, determines what is fit for Canadian radio broadcast:

http://www.nationalpost.com/ Broadcast+council+rules+Dire+Straits+song+offensiv
e+Canadian+radio/4102526/story.html

that sounds exactly like a type of censorship, imho

I see that they had three options:
Play the unedited song.
Plat the edited song.
Not play the song at all.

They censored nothing, they just chose to play the preexisting edited song in the future.

Originally posted by skekUng
Absolutely not.

I'm a pretty liberal guy, and I adore Mark Twain. I broke up with an ex once because they didn't know who Mark Twain was; not just hadn't read him, but had never heard of him, at all.

Oh please, just because Americans overrate their "authors" as they live in a land unable to produce even a shred of art, if they were given it and just had to not **** it up. I'm sure Mark Twain sounds great compared to such giants as Michael Bay, but coming from the country that produced Goethe and Mozart, you must forgive that he is all but forgettable, if it wasn't for his outrageous use of racial slurs.

Given the time and context of the book, I have no problem with keeping the word in there, and I'm a bit disappointed. It's a period piece, and that was a part of America's history, no matter how ugly it was, so there's no point in whitewashing it. To Kill A Mockingbird was one of my favorite books as a kid and still is to this day. Are they going to redact the entire trial, all of the insults hurled at Atticus, and essentially destroy the plot of the story in order to be retroactively politically correct? This was probably organized by the same people that had the hilarious idea to have a symbolic funeral for the N word a couple years back. As a black man it's kind of embarrassing, frankly. I'm not defined by some antiquated term. I define myself through my actions and character.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I see that they had three options:
Play the unedited song.
Plat the edited song.
Not play the song at all.

They censored nothing, they just chose to play the preexisting edited song in the future.

because an institution made some pronouncement that choosing otherwise violates the self imposed standards of Canadian broadcasting

they chose because they were told to choose otherwise is unacceptable

I'm not saying it is akin to gvt censorship, and like I said above, I had originally confused the Broadcast Council ruling with a court ruling. However, it is a form of institutional censorship, or at least, a form of enforced conformity that is essentially identical in practice. lol, there are still stations playing it uncensored, lol, I only really mentioned it as an aside

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh please, just because Americans overrate their "authors" as they live in a land unable to produce even a shred of art, if they were given it and just had to not **** it up. I'm sure Mark Twain sounds great compared to such giants as Michael Bay, but coming from the country that produced Goethe and Mozart, you must forgive that he is all but forgettable, if it wasn't for his outrageous use of racial slurs.

You've answered your own criticism. No matter your opinion of him, he is uniquely American -southern American. He is a pervasive literary and cultural figure, which even in your far advanced nation, is known. I didn't say he was Plato or Paine, I said I adored him. I also adore David Sedaris, but that doesn't mean I inncorrectly think he is Marx. There's a reason we're made to read his books in the 5th and 6th grade. But, if it makes you feel any better, I won't dump you, because at least you've heard of him.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh please, just because Americans overrate their "authors" as they live in a land unable to produce even a shred of art, if they were given it and just had to not **** it up. I'm sure Mark Twain sounds great compared to such giants as Michael Bay, but coming from the country that produced Goethe and Mozart, you must forgive that he is all but forgettable, if it wasn't for his outrageous use of racial slurs.

you mean the country you were from happened to be the culturally dominant one in the time we hold as some "enlightened age", sort of like the Greeks and the Rennisance?

Twain deserves his praises, if for nothing other than quotations

Who's Mozart?

Originally posted by skekUng
You've answered your own criticism. No matter your opinion of him, he is uniquely American -southern American. He is a pervasive literary and cultural figure, which even in your far advanced nation, is known. I didn't say he was Plato or Paine, I said I adored him. I also adore David Sedaris, but that doesn't mean I inncorrectly think he is Marx. There's a reason we're made to read his books in the 5th and 6th grade. But, if it makes you feel any better, I won't dump you, because at least you've heard of him. Originally posted by inimalist
you mean the country you were from happened to be the culturally dominant one in the time we hold as some "enlightened age", sort of like the Greeks and the Rennisance?

Twain deserves his praises, if for nothing other than quotations

Lol, sorry, I was making an outrageous statement for comedy. I'm actually quite fond of Mark Twain. My father is a big fan and suggested to me to read Tom Sawyer at an early age (a German translation, of course) and I have enjoyed him since then.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh please, just because Americans overrate their "authors" as they live in a land unable to produce even a shred of art, if they were given it and just had to not **** it up. I'm sure Mark Twain sounds great compared to such giants as Michael Bay, but coming from the country that produced Goethe and Mozart, you must forgive that he is all but forgettable, if it wasn't for his outrageous use of racial slurs.

What's a Goethe? Does it hurt?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Lol, sorry, I was making an outrageous statement for comedy. I'm actually quite fond of Mark Twain. My father is a big fan and suggested to me to read Tom Sawyer at an early age (a German translation, of course) and I have enjoyed him since then.

lol, don't take my comment as anything other than a more cynical attempt at comedy. Nobody can argue with Germany's contribution to Western culture.

I guess the punch line of my joke would be, name a canadian artist that isn't nickleback or avril lavien (sp?)

its all envy

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, don't take my comment as anything other than a more cynical attempt at comedy. Nobody can argue with Germany's contribution to Western culture.

I guess the punch line of my joke would be, name a canadian artist that isn't nickleback or avril lavien (sp?)

its all envy



Oh please, you also have Bryan Adams and Celine Dion.

Aww, and here I thought I was giving you some credit for referring me

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What's a Goethe? Does it hurt?

That's somewhat funny, as his most famous work is Faust, which means fist, and they can and do hurt.

It's more of a dadudemon sort of funny though.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh please, just because Americans overrate their "authors" as they live in a land unable to produce even a shred of art, if they were given it and just had to not **** it up. I'm sure Mark Twain sounds great compared to such giants as Michael Bay, but coming from the country that produced Goethe and Mozart, you must forgive that he is all but forgettable, if it wasn't for his outrageous use of racial slurs.

Was a German claiming credit for Mozart part of the joke?

Dude, it's part of the background of the novel. Leave it be....

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Was a German claiming credit for Mozart part of the joke?

Well we get Hitler, so we should get Mozart.

But yeah, I suppose one could argue that we should go by modern country lines, though that's really problematic in the case of Germany (and German speaking countries), for example Kafka, most people would consider him a German writer, but by today's standards he'd be Czech, and Immanuel Kant'd be Polish. In germany at least we mostly defined ourselves by the language, otherwise there is a huge problem we'd have with identifying. Regardless at the time Austria was still part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, really the fundamental distinction between "Germany" and Austria mostly happened after the second world war.

I do see your point though, perhaps I should have taken Bach or Beethoven instead, though I guess the first was a Saxon and the second Rhinelander....or well a Prussian by his death

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh please, you also have Bryan Adams and Celine Dion.

come on now, we were having a civil discussion here, there is no reason to bring those kind of things up

Originally posted by Bardock42
Aww, and here I thought I was giving you some credit for referring me

lol, if only he knew what an inimalist was

Originally posted by inimalist
come on now, we were having a civil discussion here, there is no reason to bring those kind of things up



lol, if only he knew what an inimalist was

You also have Rush...so there's that.


Yeah, I figured he probably didn't have too many friends cause he's into politics and stuff and most people are a bit dumb, so I assumed he'd figure it out. Maybe by asking every single one "Hey, btw, are you inimalist?"

Originally posted by Bardock42
You also have Rush...so there's that.

if we push it outside of music, we also have the group of seven, who are really important modern painters, especially tom thompson. We also have the Band, Neil Young and Venetian Snares

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, I figured he probably didn't have too many friends cause he's into politics and stuff and most people are a bit dumb, so I assumed he'd figure it out. Maybe by asking every single one "Hey, btw, are you inimalist?"

LOL, zing...

actually, the anarchist part probably gave it away, most of my friends don't swing that way

Originally posted by inimalist
if we push it outside of music, we also have the group of seven, who are really important modern painters, especially tom thompson. We also have the Band, Neil Young and Venetian Snares



LOL, zing...

actually, the anarchist part probably gave it away, most of my friends don't swing that way

Yeah, lets get back to bands though, you got Godspeed You Black Emperor and Joni Mitchell, and we are kinda hijacking this thread.

Well, I noticed you don't swing that way so much anymore either...

Anyway at best the change is pointless and takes away from the text. The lesson of "why did Twain use this word even though we consider it inappropriate" opens up an important discussion into history.

I like Mark Twain, but I really don't see how huckleberry finn got to be his most famous work. Its really not that great. I've read many writings by Twain that were much better.

"Letters from the Earth" was hilarious. Its hard to imagine something written that long ago to be so radical, even today it would be shocking to conservatives.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh please, just because Americans overrate their "authors" as they live in a land unable to produce even a shred of art, if they were given it and just had to not **** it up. I'm sure Mark Twain sounds great compared to such giants as Michael Bay, but coming from the country that produced Goethe and Mozart, you must forgive that he is all but forgettable, if it wasn't for his outrageous use of racial slurs.

Says the guy who's fascinated(fan-boy) by America, American culture and American television. Don't be angry or jealous, just move here, renounce your Germanicness and become a citizen.

P.S. Avoid most of the South, Midwest and Eastern states. In fact, the Bay Area of California is about the only sensible(ie not shit) place to live, just bring lots of Marks with you. See you soon; bring me some Kinder Uberraschung, hard to get those here.

Originally posted by Robtard
Says the guy who's fascinated(fan-boy) by America, American culture and American television. Don't be angry or jealous, just move here, renounce your Germanicness and become a citizen.

P.S. Avoid most of the South, Midwest and Eastern states. In fact, the Bay Area of California is about the only sensible(ie not shit) place to live, just bring lots of Marks with you. See you soon; bring me some Kinder Uberraschung, hard to get those here.

lol, I'd love to do that.


Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Anyway at best the change is pointless and takes away from the text. The lesson of "why did Twain use this word even though we consider it inappropriate" opens up an important discussion into history.

I agree with that. Really, rather than change anything, just don't teach it if you are bothered, there's enough alternatives, it's not like people leave High School with a thorough knowledge of literature, unless they helped themselves

Originally posted by King Kandy
I really don't see how huckleberry finn got to be his most famous work.

I'd argue Sawyer was his most famous, but that would be semantics. To answer your question:

Originally posted by skekUng
we're made to read his books in the 5th and 6th grade.

Most of his works aren't particularly age appropriate, given when we're typically introduced to his stories. It's meant to be a jumping off point so we can further explore and appreciate him as an author, but most Americans stop reading -pretty much anything- after they are no longer forced to do so. Actually, I'd wager most people, not just Americans, approach reading as a chore. Maybe it comes from being forced to read books in middle school, we gain a distaste for it.

I must confess, I didn't read the article before I posted, being familiar with the issue, I did it now though, it's actually quite good, he shows that it can be incredibly useful to have a discussion like that, even with children. However I understand that a classroom situation may be different, and that it is perhaps a discussion better suited for parents. Though again, if that's the case, don't teach it at all.

Originally posted by Mindship
I think it's a mistake. This isn't just a classic novel, it also chronicles the times in which it was written. This is whitewashing, and it promotes ignorance.

well said.

I saw this on the news last week, and its way too PC. The only people offended are either extremely thin-skinned and/or have no understanding of history. Even Abe Lincoln used the N-word. Back then it wasn't the offensive "Oh my god, its the end of the world" word that it is today. It was the accepted term.

In fact, Gandhi used the word "Kaffir". Today its considered an offensive word for Blacks in South Africa, but back then it was the normal word to describe Black people.

Originally posted by Robtard
P.S. Avoid most of the South, Midwest and Eastern states.

That's funny; my 3 favorite states (Arizona, Oregon and Hawaii) happen to not be on that list.

facepalm at the whitewashing

Originally posted by Omega Vision
facepalm at the whitewashing

Or is it blackwashing?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
facepalm at the whitewashing

That's what Aunt Polly said.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I must confess, I didn't read the article before I posted, being familiar with the issue, I did it now though, it's actually quite good, he shows that it can be incredibly useful to have a discussion like that, even with children. However I understand that a classroom situation may be different, and that it is perhaps a discussion better suited for parents. Though again, if that's the case, don't teach it at all.

Considering the ages of the main characters in the books we are taught in school, I think the debate is completely appropriate. More often than not, I disagree with the whole "it's my kid, I'll teach him what I want him to know" approach to social issues -especially since there is rarely a bias in the classroom that hinders the progress and understanding.

The same N word issue is actually holding up the remake of the dam busters...If anyone remembers the dog's name was N****r (apparently this gets dubbed to Trigger) in some countries.

Stephen Fry has been tasked with working out the n-word problem for Dambusters, I'd heard. It;s stupid to try and censor history by modern standards, of course.

Originally posted by jaden101
The same N word issue is actually holding up the remake of the dam busters...If anyone remembers the dog's name was N****r (apparently this gets dubbed to Trigger) in some countries.

The tobacco brand Bigger Hare, seen here:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u55/WatchOut_02/BiggerHare.jpg

^Used to be called "N*gger Hair", but after the Civil War the company was forced to change its name. If you do a Google Image search of N*gger Hair, you'll find various old ads and containers of the former brand-name.

Originally posted by Mindship
I think it's a mistake. This isn't just a classic novel, it also chronicles the times in which it was written. This is whitewashing, and it promotes ignorance.

Originally posted by Robtard
Says the guy who's fascinated(fan-boy) by America, American culture and American television. Don't be angry or jealous, just move here, renounce your Germanicness and become a citizen.

P.S. Avoid most of the South, Midwest and Eastern states. In fact, the Bay Area of California is about the only sensible(ie not shit) place to live, just bring lots of Marks with you. See you soon; bring me some Kinder Uberraschung, hard to get those here.



Try not to feed the homeless people though. They're kind of an infestation.

It's just a word and just like others that can be derogatory sometimes, at other times they are not. If we're going to censor Mark Twain are we also going to censor Alex Haley? (Roots) Leave books the way they were written for people to enjoy or hate for what they are.

Originally posted by leonidas
are we today justified in reworking something like huck finn to eliminate the 'n-word'? michael chabon weighs in here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2011/01/the-unspeakable-in-its-jammies/69369/

what do you guys think about the issue? I think it's ridiculous. Mark Twain was clearly a hipster in that he was just using the term ironically. He wasn't promoting the word. The word is just a part of a historical record of how people in the Southern United States spoke in the early to mid-nineteenth century. I doubt that Twain used the word colloquially. He was just writing "in-character."

Originally posted by Grate the Vraya
I think it's ridiculous. Mark Twain was clearly a hipster in that he was just using the term ironically. He wasn't promoting the word. The word is just a part of a historical record of how people in the Southern United States spoke in the early to mid-nineteenth century. I doubt that Twain used the word colloquially. He was just writing "in-character."

He uses it freely in his autobiography, it was simply the word of the times.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He uses it freely in his autobiography, it was simply the word of the times. Must you always contradict me with your "facts"?

lol

i'm wondering--while i agree with the notion that it is whitewashing, it IS merely a different version. it's not like all the original versions are going to be burned or forgotten. we`see similar actions taken when classics are transcribed for children in children's books. can this not be seen as akin to that?

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i'm wondering--while i agree with the notion that it is whitewashing, it IS merely a different version. it's not like all the original versions are going to be burned or forgotten. we`see similar actions taken when classics are transcribed for children in children's books. can this not be seen as akin to that? Meh, it just doesn't change the plot at all. It seems a bit picky to me. Plus it's kind of a waste of paper.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i'm wondering--while i agree with the notion that it is whitewashing, it IS merely a different version. it's not like all the original versions are going to be burned or forgotten. we`see similar actions taken when classics are transcribed for children in children's books. can this not be seen as akin to that? If the book is to be read by young children then it being transformed to something that they can comprehend is understandable. Similar to simplifying Moby Dick so that a seven year old can read it. Children over twelve shouldn't be deprived of the opportunity to read historical literature in it's original form, period. We're too damn sensitive these days, I'm sick of people whining about how they're offended when it's obvious nobody is trying to offend them.

Originally posted by The MISTER
If the book is to be read by young children then it being transformed to something that they can comprehend is understandable. Similar to simplifying Moby Dick so that a seven year old can read it. Children over twelve shouldn't be deprived of the opportunity to read historical literature in it's original form, period. We're too damn sensitive these days, I'm sick of people whining about how they're offended when it's obvious nobody is trying to offend them. You have no idea how much the insinuation in your post pissed me off.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You have no idea how much the insinuation in your post pissed me off. *CENSORED FOR POLITICAL INCORRECTNESS*hink about people getting upset....
censored2 nono Oh my bad..nosweat

Damn...I think it's spreading already.

This stinks of the mid-'90's effort by some school boards to censor or ban The Diary of Anne Frank for being "too depressing".

I wouldn't use the term, because it is offensive to people, but I also don't go around calling people other offensive names. Anyways, the immortal Lenny Bruce:

SOnkv76rNL4

I see no reason why you shouldn't have children exposed to the term at all. Even if it isn't socially acceptable, it is nonsense to try and hide it from them. By changing it, by making books "age appropriate", even if nothing about the message of the story is lost, we ensure that future generations will have the exact same hang ups about these things as we do today.

Face the problem, this is exactly what schools are for. educated and rational discussion about the content of literature.

That's Dustin Hoffman.

I thought the camera was strangely in focus....

its a Lenny Bruce skit though, obviously

Originally posted by inimalist
I thought the camera was strangely in focus....

its a Lenny Bruce skit though, obviously

Haha, yeah.

Though, you should maybe consider taking it down, the mods might not want it up (in an ironic twist fit to make the universe explode)

Originally posted by Darth Jello
This stinks of the mid-'90's effort by some school boards to censor or ban The Diary of Anne Frank for being "too depressing".

They should have rewrote it with a Romeo & Juliet twist, Anne the Jewish girl and Einhard the prodigal Hitler youth fall madly in love, but their families won't have it.

I smell a classic.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Though, you should maybe consider taking it down, the mods might not want it up (in an ironic twist fit to make the universe explode)

/shrug

they can edit my posts.

EDIT: also, we had a thread about the f word that had a video containing little but the f word for a while. though, of course, logic is always the thing that convinces authority they are wrong

Originally posted by inimalist
/shrug

they can edit my posts. Indeed.

Lenny's a great movie, btw, if you haven't seen it.

I haven't actually...

demonoid.me!

Oh man, you are on collision course with the mods today...

/rebel

If I'm in the mood to listen to some Short Dog, I might hear it about 100 times in an hour. And the word bitches.pimp

Censorship and historical cover-ups are ALWAYS bullshit.

Originally posted by Robtard
They should have rewrote it with a Romeo & Juliet twist, Anne the Jewish girl and Einhard the prodigal Hitler youth fall madly in love, but their families won't have it.

I smell a classic.

Reading that would be a gas!

It's so hard to post, sometimes. You don't want to avoid a post where your not participating implies that you don't know what Plato and Darwin wrote, but just accepting that saying nothing is the smartest part of your obligation to the conversation isn't easy, either.