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Neutral Galaxy

CIS OFF


New Gods
******
Darkseid
Granny Goodness
Big Barda
Orion
Mister Miracle




Eternals
********
Thanos
Ikaris
Gilgamesh
Sersi
Hyperion

Hyperion is an eternal?

While the Eternals has the slight high card is thanos the New gods have more power overall easily.

New gods 9/10.

Originally posted by Deadline
Hyperion is an eternal?

???

Yeah, Hyperion is an alternate universe Eternal, as revealed in Gru's Quasar.

The last survivor of his world's Eternals.

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, Hyperion is an alternate universe Eternal, as revealed in Gru's Quasar.

The last survivor of his world's Eternals.

Meh different versions then.

It just came out of Gru's desire to connect everything, and I thought it was a pretty interesting and cool retcon.

He wrote the definitive Squadron Supreme story, regardless, so if anyone had the right, it was he.

I didn't know this Desaad.. good find. Happen to have any scans?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
While the Eternals has the slight high card is thanos the New gods have more power overall easily.

New gods 9/10.

How does:

Darkseid, Granny Goodness, Big Barda, Orion, Mister Miracle

Have more overall power than:

Thanos, Ikaris, Gilgamesh, Sersi, Hyperion???

Especially when Thanos is upgraded and DS loses to Superman (at times) and the New Gods team has Mister Miracle??

Eternals 10/10. :-/

As to this battle, assuming average portrayals for the New Gods (ie, not true form/fully manifested/Final Crisis versions of Darkseid and Granny)...

The Eternals take it pretty handily.

Thanos, on average, has the slight edge against Darkseid as he normally 'manifests' on earth, Orion will defeat either Hyperion or Gilgamesh but it won't be a steam role, Sersi is more powerful than Barda, Mister Miracle will I'm sure perform admirably but is outpowered by EVERYONE here and by a significant margin and Granny Goodness, again outside of true form manifestation (like when she defeated the Greek Gods or took over Kraken's body), isn't as powerful as anyone on the Eternals team.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I didn't know this Desaad.. good find. Happen to have any scans?

Nah, it wasn't really anything huge. Hyperion and Makkari were talking one day and Makkari (and I think Ikaris?) sort of figured it out.

I don't rightly know if it's even been picked up on since.

I don't think BB read the stips. I think he (like me initially) thot ALL the NGs vs ALL the Eternals (wherein I would agree that the NG has more overall power).

Bloody retcons.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I don't think BB read the stips. I think he (like me initially) thot ALL the NGs vs ALL the Eternals (wherein I would agree that the NG has more overall power).

Right. In addition, it's worth noting that the technology of the New Gods is significantly greater in power and versatility than that which we have seen of the Eternals.

But that has little/nothing to do here. And this matchup was essentially terrible.

A better lineup for the New Gods might have been....

Darkseid
Orion
Lightray
Kalibak
Barda

Originally posted by Desaad
Right. In addition, it's worth noting that the technology of the New Gods is significantly greater in power and versatility than that which we have seen of the Eternals.

But that has little/nothing to do here. And this matchup was essentially terrible.

A better lineup for the New Gods might have been....

Darkseid
Orion
Lightray
Kalibak
Barda Make sure its classic kalibak and not Tony the Tiger kalibak.

eternals

Originally posted by Deadline
Bloody retcons.

Well, what was his origin before? More of a direct Superman rip off, as I recall, save for the fact that he was rocketed away from...another dimension?

I thought it was a fun one.

There have been so many iterations of the character at this point, though -- the Superman knock off from another universe, the evil one created by the Grandmaster, King Hyperion, Supreme Power Hyperion, even Paradise X Hyperion -- he's a bit of a mess.

Jeff Parker is doing something fun in Thunderbolts as well, and I'm anxious to see where that one goes.

Originally posted by Desaad
Well, what was his origin before? More of a direct Superman rip off, as I recall, save for the fact that he was rocketed away from...another dimension?

I thought it was a fun one.

There have been so many iterations of the character at this point, though -- the Superman knock off from another universe, the evil one created by the Grandmaster, King Hyperion, Supreme Power Hyperion, even Paradise X Hyperion -- he's a bit of a mess.

Jeff Parker is doing something fun in Thunderbolts as well, and I'm anxious to see where that one goes.

*shrug*

Moonstones gonna be all over Hyp.

Hyperion should be call Retconion instead!

One of the things that I've always found interesting about Hyperion is that to my knowledge there is no true 616 version. That's pretty bemusing considering the fact that various versions of the character got a fair amount of panel time in the 616 (or used to).

Originally posted by dmills
One of the things that I've always found interesting about Hyperion is that to my knowledge there is no true 616 version. That's pretty bemusing considering the fact that the character gets a fair amount of panel time in the 616 (or used to).


hey that's Gilgamesh (Forgotten One) in the background of your sig right? the middle guy?

Mr. Miracle solos

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
hey that's Gilgamesh (Forgotten One) in the background of your sig right? the middle guy? Yessir. Hehe, that team on my sig is a play off of the Cosmic Annihilators.

The Eternals takes it.

I think the NG take it. Miracle could well solo, even without his godhood he does have knowledge of the full ALE and does use it when the situation demands it.

He really doesn't.

Not only was "Death of the New Gods" an absolute abomination to the characters, and total mischaracterization, but it took the death of his lady love for him to use it.

Remember, he's had it his entire life, essentially, and after the one accidental usage when he was young, he never, ever used it again, despite the fact that he has REGULARLY been put in immortal danger.

He's not using the ALE to win the battle, and frankly it's a cop out to say he would since that is really not the intention of the thread I don't think.

Originally posted by Desaad
He really doesn't.

Not only was "Death of the New Gods" an absolute abomination to the characters, and total mischaracterization, but it took the death of his lady love for him to use it.

Remember, he's had it his entire life, essentially, and after the one accidental usage when he was young, he never, ever used it again, despite the fact that he has REGULARLY been put in immortal danger.

He's not using the ALE to win the battle, and frankly it's a cop out to say he would since that is really not the intention of the thread I don't think.

Without his discarded godhood (as is the case here) and without the ALE he is a non factor. Also the stips say CIS off. No reason why MM doesn't use the ALE except for his own principles, that qualifies as CIS.

That's retarded, I'm sorry.

The entire POINT of the character is immediately NULLIFIED upon his use of the Anti Life Equation. He's the spirit of freedom, the god of self determination and independence -- using the equation to strip others of that quality goes against everything that he is.

That's the entire point of him having it -- he's the one person in all the universes who would never, ever use it. It's a brilliant, tragic dichotomy.

And Mister Miracle 'without god powers' has gone toe to toe with Superman in a fist fight, and used his intelligence and skills to defeat a group that consisted of Wonder Woman, Obsidian and Fire. So he's hardly some pushover. He's Spiderman with a hell of a lot more toys.

Originally posted by Desaad
That's retarded, I'm sorry.

The entire POINT of the character is immediately NULLIFIED upon his use of the Anti Life Equation. He's the spirit of freedom, the god of self determination and independence -- using the equation to strip others of that quality goes against everything that he is.

That's the entire point of him having it -- he's the one person in all the universes who would never, ever use it. It's a brilliant, tragic dichotomy.

And Mister Miracle 'without god powers' has gone toe to toe with Superman in a fist fight, and used his intelligence and skills to defeat a group that consisted of Wonder Woman, Obsidian and Fire. So he's hardly some pushover. He's Spiderman with a hell of a lot more toys.

I know about Miracles agility. I even have the comic where he battles Supes for a little bit, but that was an abberation. His nowhere near that level on average, and would indeed be a non factor in this fight.

Also, I know all about the irony of Miracle possessing the ALE. I also know that he finds the use of it abhorent, that still qualifies as CIS. As in it is a character induced limitation. You may not like it, but is what it is.

When it comes down to it the ALE is a weapon, and using a weapon doesn't fundamentally change you, it is a tool, one that can be abused or used for good will.

Miracle being the god of freedom should liberate him from self imposed restrictions, but because of his upbringing on Apokolips he places more restrictions on his actions than there need to be, it is more of a character flaw than anything else imo.

It's like Batman's argument against using guns, it's nothing but a self imposed delusion, Batman doesn't stop being Batman after he uses a gun.

Originally posted by Desaad
As to this battle, assuming average portrayals for the New Gods (ie, not true form/fully manifested/Final Crisis versions of Darkseid and Granny)...

The Eternals take it pretty handily.

Thanos, on average, has the slight edge against Darkseid as he normally 'manifests' on earth, Orion will defeat either Hyperion or Gilgamesh but it won't be a steam role, Sersi is more powerful than Barda, Mister Miracle will I'm sure perform admirably but is outpowered by EVERYONE here and by a significant margin and Granny Goodness, again outside of true form manifestation (like when she defeated the Greek Gods or took over Kraken's body), isn't as powerful as anyone on the Eternals team.

Originally posted by Allankles
I know about Miracles agility. I even have the comic where he battles Supes for a little bit, but that was an abberation. His nowhere near that level on average, and would indeed be a non factor in this fight.

Also, I know all about the irony of Miracle possessing the ALE. I also know that he finds the use of it abhorent, that still qualifies as CIS. As in it is a character induced limitation. You may not like it, but is what it is.

When it comes down to it the ALE is a weapon, and using a weapon doesn't fundamentally change you, it is a tool, one that can be abused or used for good will.

Miracle being the god of freedom should liberate him from self imposed restrictions, but because of his upbringing on Apokolips he places more restrictions on his actions than there need to be, it is more of a character flaw than anything else imo.

It's like Batman's argument against using guns, it's nothing but a self imposed delusion, Batman doesn't stop being Batman after he uses a gun.

I think CIS refers to a natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. In Batmans sake, it wouldnt necessarily make him better if he used a gun and seeing as how his value system is about reform...cis would be spiderman pulling punches against metas

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I think CIS refers to a natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. In Batmans sake, it wouldnt necessarily make him better if he used a gun and seeing as how his value system is about reform...cis would be spiderman pulling punches against metas

Yeah, I agree about Batman, guns don't improve him. I just used him as an example because of how strict he is about that restriction. I also used him because i know of two desperate scenarios in which he used a gun. Once when he was about to be killed by a parademon and a second time to stop Darkseid from wrecking the multiverse.

My point was that being outclassed and faced with certain death Miracle would use the ALE, at the very least to stop or prevent one of the Eternals from harming him (fatally or otherwise).

As the god of freedom he understands that there is an antithesis to his principles, and has long ago accepted the existence of the ALE.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I don't think BB read the stips. I think he (like me initially) thot ALL the NGs vs ALL the Eternals (wherein I would agree that the NG has more overall power). No I read the stips.

Originally posted by Allankles
I know about Miracles agility. I even have the comic where he battles Supes for a little bit, but that was an abberation. His nowhere near that level on average, and would indeed be a non factor in this fight.

The fight with Superman was an abberation -- though one that must be counted -- but his battles against other top flight foes (like the team I mentioned above) proves that he IS a player, even when he's limiting himself drastically, and with the raw power of his Mother Box and all the tools at his disposal he is most certainly more than a 'non-factor'. Being an underdog in power is not at all the same as being a non-factor.



It's more than that, and the fact that you're unable to recognize it demonstrates your INABILITY to see it.

It's not just that he finds it abhorrent -- its that it goes against everything that he is, the very fundamental bedrock of his being. Batman did use guns, and has used guns, on multiple occasions. Mister Miracle is the GOD OF FREEDOM and would never use the ultimate tool of REPRESSION as a result. To do so would mean his own death and damnation.

Any rule that asks a character to act so contrary to the fundamentally perpendicular to their purpose shouldn't be followed.



Using the weapon WOULD fundamentally change him. It would change, and destroy, everything that he is.

That's what makes it such an impossibly brilliant addition to the mythos.

Originally posted by Desaad
The fight with Superman was an abberation -- though one that must be counted -- but his battles against other top flight foes (like the team I mentioned above) proves that he IS a player, even when he's limiting himself drastically, and with the raw power of his Mother Box and all the tools at his disposal he is most certainly more than a 'non-factor'. Being an underdog in power is not at all the same as being a non-factor.



It's more than that, and the fact that you're unable to recognize it demonstrates your INABILITY to see it.

It's not just that he finds it abhorrent -- its that it goes against everything that he is, the very fundamental bedrock of his being. Batman did use guns, and has used guns, on multiple occasions. Mister Miracle is the GOD OF FREEDOM and would never use the ultimate tool of REPRESSION as a result. To do so would mean his own death and damnation.

Any rule that asks a character to act so contrary to the fundamentally perpendicular to their purpose shouldn't be followed.



Using the weapon WOULD fundamentally change him. It would change, and destroy, everything that he is.

That's what makes it such an impossibly brilliant addition to the mythos.

I think you're taking it too far. Yes the very existence of the ALE disproves the concept of freedom but... the concept of freedom allows for such an implausibility - a concept that disproves its very existence.

Also Miracle is the very total personification of the concept, his knowledge of the ALE would destroy him otherwise i.e. if we go by the idea that using it can destroy him, knowing it would do the same, in fact more totally since knowing is deeper than simply using.

Uttering the equation is no different than picturing it in the mind.

More relevant to my case is how he'd effect its use, it would be no different than using telepathy to stop an assault on his person. Which is why I said that ultimately the ALE is a tool, seeing as it is not an entity or personification but a mathematical equation.

Originally posted by Allankles
I think the NG take it. Miracle could well solo, even without his godhood he does have knowledge of the full ALE and does use it when the situation demands it.


Allankles, who is in your sig? I like the char design quite a lot.

Originally posted by Bentley
Allankles, who is in your sig? I like the char design quite a lot.


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's Iboga!

Originally posted by Black bolt z
No I read the stips.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
While the Eternals has the slight high card is thanos the New gods have more power overall easily.

New gods 9/10.

You serious?? O_o

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You serious?? O_o Mister Mircale(ALE), Granny Goodness, Darkseid. That alone is a helluva lot of firepower.

Originally posted by Desaad
Right. In addition, it's worth noting that the technology of the New Gods is significantly greater in power and versatility than that which we have seen of the Eternals.

But that has little/nothing to do here. And this matchup was essentially terrible.

A better lineup for the New Gods might have been....

Darkseid
Orion
Lightray
Kalibak
Barda

The OP's original lineup makes things too onesided for team Eternal.
This lineup makes things waaay more interesting.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Mister Mircale(ALE), Granny Goodness, Darkseid. That alone is a helluva lot of firepower.

Mr Miracle wasn't mentioned to have the ALE here. :-/

(Yes, I know he has it but he won't "use" it in this fight for the reasons mentioned above)

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Mr Miracle wasn't mentioned to have the ALE here. :-/

(Yes, I know he has it but he won't "use" it in this fight for the reasons mentioned above) HAs he not always had it?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
HAs he not always had it?
For the last 40 years anyway

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
For the last 40 years anyway So since CIS is off I see no reason why he won't use it.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
So since CIS is off I see no reason why he won't use it.

because its not CIS for Miracle to not use the ALE

Originally posted by Sin I AM
because its not CIS for Miracle to not use the ALE Then what is it?

Its not in character for him to use it is it? So why would he not use it with CIS off?

A perfect example of CIS would be Spiderman pulling his punches in a battle with Daredevil because he doesnt wont do hurt him and thus halfing his abilities and allowing a win...thats cis.


The ALE is in itself an antithesis to everything Miracle represents...its his yang. Its not some self-imposed restriction, its a polar opposite thats unnatural for his being to accept

^^^^ Correct

Originally posted by Sin I AM
A perfect example of CIS would be Spiderman pulling his punches in a battle with Daredevil because he doesnt wont do hurt him and thus halfing his abilities and allowing a win...thats cis.


The ALE is in itself an antithesis to everything Miracle represents...its his yang. Its not some self-imposed restriction, its a polar opposite thats unnatural for his being to accept But its still a part of him. For whatever reason its not in his character to use it. Doesn't matter why. Thus with CIS off I still see no reason why he wouldn't.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
But its still a part of him. For whatever reason its not in his character to use it. Doesn't matter why. Thus with CIS off I still see no reason why he wouldn't.


Then i believe that your not understanding the concept. By taking "cis off" it allows a good guy like say Superman to not hold back when he's fighting an opponent, (since he always keeps his powers in check) it levels the playing field. It would not allow him to endanger lives or kill, which is what is usually implied when people add "bloodlusted" to threads since killing in itself, isnt cis. Same goes for Mr. Miracle. If i wanted him to use the ALE (which would have made the thread spite btw) then i would have stipulated either "bloodlust" or simple ALE in my OP.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Then i believe that your not understanding the concept. By taking "cis off" it allows a good guy like say Superman to not hold back when he's fighting an opponent, (since he always keeps his powers in check) it levels the playing field. It would not allow him to endanger lives or kill, which is what is usually implied when people add "bloodlusted" to threads since killing in itself, isnt cis. Same goes for Mr. Miracle. If i wanted him to use the ALE (which would have made the thread spite btw) then i would have stipulated either "bloodlust" or simple ALE in my OP. Why wouldn't it let him endanger lives?

Without CIS you argue powerset. The character doesn't matter. As they don't do whats in character.

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. <<<this is the definition ive come to accept, now IMO it pertains pulling punches, forgetting you have a magic hammer that can absorb ALL energy types, being an expert marksman and MISSING, being able to travel ftl and getting punched by metas, etc. The ALE represents a portion of Miracles mythos which in effect is his polar opposite, imo it SHOULD be as detrimental for him to use on another as himself. But thats my opinion.