Why fangirls love to ruin good characters?

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Sparrabella
I have recently had a sit up with POTC trilogy and it striked me that the characters as they really are have been distorted in my memory due to fangirl "interpretation" in sappy YouTube vids, siggies, essays and posts that basically turn badass men like Jack, Will and Norringotn into love sick puppies. eek!

Guys, that`s really terrible. There are some serious myths that need to be busted pronto. Such as The Myth That Will Is a Boring Pansy and The Myth that Norrington Is Mr Nice Guy Who Needs a Hug.

I`d like to start Mythbuster threads with an in-depth analysis of the interesting and complex characters who suffered the most from fangirl simplification but only if you are interested in discussion. So let me know. No hard feelings if there`s zero interest for this. I get that I`m late to the party with OST coming out which doesn`t have main heroes of the Mythbuster.

Bwa Ha Ha
CHARACTER ANALYSIS?!?

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW!

YESSSSSSSSSSS

Who do you wanna start discussing?

Should we do debates? Or just discuss them in general?

I'm up for anything!

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
CHARACTER ANALYSIS?!?

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW!

YESSSSSSSSSSS

Who do you wanna start discussing?

Should we do debates? Or just discuss them in general?

I'm up for anything!

I`d discuss Will and Norrington in separate Mythbuster threads because there`s a lot to say on each so lumping them in one thread would be too much. I also feel that they suffered the most from fangirl simplification.
wink

We can definitely do debates or whatever you like. But first, I need to know if there`s a text limit per post so that I know whether to break the essays down to several entries group around one subject or something.

The Red
Originally posted by Sparrabella
I`d discuss Will and Norrington in separate Mythbuster threads because there`s a lot to say on each so lumping them in one thread would be too much. I also feel that they suffered the most from fangirl simplification.
wink

We can definitely do debates or whatever you like. But first, I need to know if there`s a text limit per post so that I know whether to break the essays down to several entries group around one subject or something. I feel that making separate threads would be redundant and would clutter of the forum. I'm sure it all can be discussed in this thread alone. The more that people contribute, the easier this process will be, however.

siriuswriter
ditto The Red. big grin

Sparrabella
Originally posted by The Red
I feel that making separate threads would be redundant and would clutter of the forum. I'm sure it all can be discussed in this thread alone. The more that people contribute, the easier this process will be, however.

Good idea. I wasn`t sure what would work the best so I was fishing for ideas. I know that some fans like to keep their faves separate but this sounds Happy Dance

The Red
I'd like to start in saying that Will Turner is the most downplayed character.

Sparrabella

Sparrabella
The Myth - Norrington is a nice guy who needs a hug

Mythbuster says...

Don`t judge the book by the cover or an 18th century marine by his wig and brocade. This man would`ve been in Nam in the 60s, in Iraq now, on Pandora in 2154. He`d lead the team of Inglorius Bastards during the WW2. You`d most likely know him as a Navy Seal or by the name of John Rambo, Sgt William James, Jake Sully and Aldo Raine. Do I make myself clear?

...warrior of the Jarhead Clan...

James Norrington, a character that unexplicably launched thousands of sappy YouTube vids that would make him reach for long nines and Michael Bay them into oblivion, is a the saga`s only true warrior. This is the man who not only dedicated his life to war and fighting but he loves it. I`m sure that there are many sappy fanfics in which dear Jamie was forced into Navy by his strict father but everything that Norrington ever said or did in the movies points to one thing - he chose it because he loves it and most likely would run away from home to join the military if he folks tried to make him an accountant for EITC. Or maybe he did.

Take his famous quote when we meet him for th first time:I intend to see that any man who sails under a pirate flag or wears a pirate brand gets what he deserves: a short drop and a sudden stop. "I intend" This is an active form. This man is not just talking the talk, he is walking the walk and proudly so. He is already a Lt. a rank that he most likely earned in fighting the bloody French because that`s how you earned your rank back in 18th century Navy. Undoubtly proficient in dealing with the enemy in swift and effficient manner, he is now doing a rotation in the Caribbean against worse menace than the French - pirates. No man who doesn`t have a proven ruthless streak would be trusted with such a task and Norrington is ruthless as he is fearless.

Allow me to cross-reference this part with Will`s first meeting with Jack. Will says: I practice 3 hours a day so when I meet a pirate I can kill it. Notice "when" here. This is a passive form. William is not actively pursuing a chance to kill a pirate. He practices just in case he has another run in but he isn`t hunting them down. He isn`t on a revenge spree. He didn`t even join military to have an opportunity to do it legally. In short, violence isn`t his thing. It is necessary evil but not something he actively pursuing or is attracted to or made a living/career of.

I` m a man of simple tastes- I like dynamite and gunpowder.

James Norrington is a man of violence. That doesn`t make him a bad man but rather explains who he is and where he is coming from. As I said before, while Will is a "there`s a good worth fighting for" man, Norrington is "there`s an evil worth fighting against" man. Norrington`s way is destructive. He may be there to protect but his personal emphasize is on destroy (kill, hang, hunt down, punish). He has a history of violence, he enjoys it, and he is comfortable in violent situations rather than those that require cordial interaction. I hope the fans do understand I am not blasting off their favorite. I find him fascinating precisely because he is a force of destruction albeit for good intentions.

Another myth that I want to bust here is The Myth of a Perfect Navy Officer. Look the way of Lt. Groves dear fans, cause the Dirty Harry of the Navy ain`t one.

Norrington is the bad boy of the Navy. The Dirty Harry. We learn that when he barked the order to blow up HMS Interceptor because I'd rather see her at the bottom of the ocean than in the hands of a pirate. Again, "I". Not because according to paragraph __ of the Navy Act __ when the HMS falls in the pirate hands it must be destroyed. No. This is Norrington making his own rules. My way or the highway. Even if it is against Navy policy and obviously is judging by Lt Groves`s reaction. He simply doesn`t care.

Now, the commandeering of the Interceptor is an incredible scene which tells us a lot about Jack, Will and Norrington. This is a huge character moment for Norrington so its analysis will close the part 1 of Mythbusting Norrington. Jack and Will commandeer Dauntless without physically or mentally hurting anyone. They actually give the Navy boys some hearty laughs. Their deception works, they switch the ships, again, all clean, no harm, off they go. What does Norrington do? Orders torpedoing of the commandeered ship. So where is the reciprocity here? Commandeering took no causalties, not even close. The ship is in fact taken not for pirating but for the rescue mission. Torpedoes are simply way too extreme measure which Groves acknowledges. Norrington, however, doesn`t care. His goal is to prevent them from sailing so if that requires to blow up the ship and its non-violent crew, so be it.

The guy is simply trigger happy. He shoots first and asks questions later or maybe he doesn`t even bother with that part. Which is why he is so successful in extreminating pirates - he thinks and acts like one. No Star Fleet code of ethical hostility here. Norrington is a rogue. Luckily for Jack and Will, Jack knew who he was dealing with and disabled long nines which led to another big character moment for Norrington - he gives credit where credit is due. Norringotn has created an extremly black and white POV that simplifies his job, where pirate is deserving of death no matter what his crime really is - impersonating a cleric of the Church of England or raping, murdering and raping again 15 years old virgins - doesn`t matter, same thing, brand and flag condamn you. He doesn`t meditate over reciprocity between crime and punishment and as we`ve just seen, he knows no reciprocity. But he respects a worthy opponent and when he puts his mind to it and takes interest, he is a good judge of character.

Next time on Mythbusting Norrington - Part 2, we bust the myths of sexual shyness and social climbing. Oh, my! Mythbuster turns up the heat, stay tuned!

P.S. Please start disccusions on William and James. No need to wait for Parts 2, may take days before they are up. big grin

siriuswriter
YES!! THANK YOU Sparrabella!

I know some history about this time period, but I was wrong on a few points. I always thought that being sent to the Carribean after dealing with the French was a cushy move because, as you say, there was no longer a need to watch your back for a French blade. So I've been thinking, "much ado about nothing," especially when Beckett comes, and holds his mass execution.

I guess I just have to remember that Jack is a "good" pirate. It's really silly, actually, because every other pirate I've grown up with... Captain Hook from Peter Pan and from "Hook," Bluebeard Long John Silver who buried his crew where he buried his treasure, Captain Blackbeard...
all of these pirates go from a tiny jump of fright to paralytic horror.
That's a big thing about these movies, of course, Jack Sparrow, to me, is on ranks with Peter Sellers' "Inspector Clouseau" when it comes to originality and sheer silliness.

But, AHEM. Back to Norry. Another thing to consider is his promotion. I believe that the crossing sequence is 8 to 10 years before the mass of the movie, and 8 to 10 years is a very short amount of time to go from Captain to Commander. Otherwise simpler known to me as "brown wig" to "white wig." Princes wear white wigs in fairy tales. The Governor Swan wore a white wig on the crossing and as Governor. It also makes me think that Norrington has come a long way in the backstory, because, if I'm correct, it's wearing your real hair until you can afford to buy a wig of colored hair, until you are of a station to wear a white wig, which is a social standing mostly left to either close royalty or men of a certain age.

I can see why he hates Will because to him because of their "I fight for the everpresent good" and "I fight against the everpresent evil." This way of judging how you should act shows Norrington acting all the time, and Will acting only when he has need to. For example, a pirate showing up in your shop. We all should know by the feel of Norrington that innocent men have probably hanged for piracy and that torture is not a problem for him, although not at high levels.

Can people like Norrington change? Only when what they want is held against them. That's what makes Norrington tick. He wants to have a just town so people will admire him. Therefore, he is always fighting people in some way or another. It is only, in fact, through Elizabeth's request, that he goes back for Will at all. [And then snaps it out on Jack with his "... all possible meanings of 'silent as the grave.'"

I shall write of Will later. big grin

Sparrabella
Originally posted by siriuswriter
YES!! THANK YOU Sparrabella!

I know some history about this time period, but I was wrong on a few points. I always thought that being sent to the Carribean after dealing with the French was a cushy move because, as you say, there was no longer a need to watch your back for a French blade. So I've been thinking, "much ado about nothing," especially when Beckett comes, and holds his mass execution.

Trust that your history is much better than mine but in general, the English were always fighting the French for whatever reason so that Norrington was in some type of war before coming to the Caribbean is a given. Maybe the bloody Spanish. Or bloody Germans. Or bloody Americans. Doesn`t matter. They needed people who can stop the piracy and you don`t send a rookie with no combat experience to do the job or someone who is squirmish around carnage or who meditates over possible innocent lives taken,etc. Take the first scenes, for example. A seasoned Navy wolf like Mr Gibbs is terrified of pirates because there`s supersition attached to them. They come out of the fog like apparitions, songs can summon them, blah, blah. Norrington doesn`t give a crap. He isn`t affraid of them and he`ll see to it they are affraid of him. Which he does. That`s a badass character right there. He knows his stuff and intends to take it to the whole new level. You don`t have that kind of confidence without some serious credit to back it up. And lets not forget that he used unorthodox methods of fighting them so that can easily go back to the time from before the crossing.



He went from Lt. to Commodore in the span of 8-10 years. When we see him next, it is his promotion to Commodore. he was the Captain until then, and we don`t know when that promotion happened. if it`s too quick, that`s due to his efficiency in fighting piracy mixed with the short life expectancy of the resident Navy officers. Sometimes it takes dying and retirement to open the ranks for promotion. I guess it`s easy in the Caribbean and that many were passing on an opportunity to serve there.



I don`t think he hates Will at all. He is rather annoyed by him for obvious reason (coughLizziecough) but lets not forget that Norrington paused and warrned Will to STFU to speak, when Will started talking about joining Jack at the gallows. He wasn`t "Oh, good. Lets hang them together so I get rid of romantic competition." Quite the contrary, he was worried that Will`s talking was self-condamnation. Of course, later in DMC, during the threeway swordfight, he kicked Will around a lot like a punching bag and fought dirty (sand in the face, tripping over, pushing, etc) but that`s how he fights. He isn`t a fair fighter. That sequence was really good because it showed off character fighting styles. Will is a fair fighter, Jack is a dirty trickster of course but Norrington is both brutal and a dirty trickster. That he doomed them all when he took the heart is far less personal hate for those people and much more his own, how can I put it, homme fatale-ness? He is like Elisabeth but on an epic level in that he brings destruction to everyone around him. But while Elisabeth, also known as the Kiss of Death, dooms few man, most notably Jack, Norrington dooms hundreds (Dauntless crew that perrished in the hurricane) and thousands (those who perrished in Beckett`s purge). But that`s a subject for another Mythbuster to go in depth.



Oh, no, please no! He`s awesome just as he is. He`s a total badass. Why change? People shouldn`t change but be accepted for who they are.



I`m so busting this outrageous myth in the next installment.

siriuswriter
oooooh.... I can't wait!!

subtlety with which Norrington acts. I think people tend to miss that more if they don't know about the social mores in this time period, which were very strict and very numerous.

I mean, Norrington thinks he's being a rude brute when he asks Elizabeth to talk with him - so much so that he doesn't realize when she falls over the barricade. It's a sort of comic moment, but putting it into history you can see that it's more black humor.

Bwa Ha Ha
Yay discussion! So is the Will one finished and replaced with Norrington, or are we coming back to it?

caseyjames
Originally posted by Sparrabella
I`d discuss Will and Norrington in separate Mythbuster threads because there`s a lot to say on each so lumping them in one thread would be too much. I also feel that they suffered the most from fangirl simplification.
wink

We can definitely do debates or whatever you like. But first, I need to know if there`s a text limit per post so that I know whether to break the essays down to several entries group around one subject or something.
i thought this was a POTc thread smile

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
Yay discussion! So is the Will one finished and replaced with Norrington, or are we coming back to it?

They are going together in the same thread. I posted Part 1 for both Will and Norrington. I took Red`s advice to keep it all in this one thread cause several would be too much. So, please, go ahead with discussion and I`ll post Part 2 for Will and Norrington some day later.

The Red
Dual discussions are fun.

Sparrabella
Originally posted by The Red
Dual discussions are fun.

Well, than, discuss! big grin C`mon, guys, let me hear yout takes! Discuss! I`m sure you do have opinions. It can`t be just me and siriuswriter going in circls, no? rolling on floor laughing

ToddianGirl
Very interesting Sparrabella. Can you also bust the myth that both Barbarossa and Davy Jones are evil.

Sparrabella
Originally posted by ToddianGirl
Very interesting Sparrabella. Can you also bust the myth that both Barbarossa and Davy Jones are evil.

I can`t bust the Barbossa myth because AWE already turned him into Crazy Irishman Stephen to Elisabeth`s William FREEEEEDOM Wallace. So he is offically good now, stamped and sealed. roll eyes (sarcastic)

As for Jones, I`d rather work on the plot hole mess that is Will the Captain of the Flying Dutchman which would include my take on Jones. smokin' But only if people are interested cause judging by barely any discussion, everyhting has been done to death and run into the ground. I`m just late to the party. laughing

Bwa Ha Ha
We totally want to discuss, it's just that some of us can't be here more often...

Sad. So sad.

But anyway! I say we discuss characters and plot holes. I don't see why not, and it would kind of overlap with the other, anyway. Like motivation and all that.

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
We totally want to discuss, it's just that some of us can't be here more often...

Sad. So sad.

But anyway! I say we discuss characters and plot holes. I don't see why not, and it would kind of overlap with the other, anyway. Like motivation and all that.

This what bugs me about Will as the Captian of the Flying Dutchman plot holes (or should I call it Swiss Cheese? stick out tongue ):

a) In DMC, Tia Dalma said that Davey Jones cut his heart becuase of the heartbreak. Apprently, he didn`t know that heartbreak is a nervous system thing and that he should`ve removed his brain, but anyway, the point is that heart cutting has nothing to do with captaining that ship. It is only Jones`s childish overreaction to being dumped. It is not the requirement to become the captain.

b) In AWE, Jones pretty much confirms that he was the captain before cutting his heart when he says that he served Calypso for 10 years but when his one day on the shore came, she wasn`t there for him. That`s what caused the heartbreak and the infamous heart-cutting which he could do because he was immortal.

Now, why did they cut Will`s heart in order to make him the captain? It isn`t a requirement and there is no reference where Jones managed to override Calypso`s design for the captian by adding heart-cutting as a must. When it was said that stabbing Jones`s heart means the stabber will automatically become the Captain, it should mean magic connection. But heart-cutting? Makes no sense since the intention was to soothe the heartbreak. That`s all.

Now, how the curse works? According to the movie, and especially Will and Bootstrap convo before the ending, CotFD is endlessly bound to the ship in order to ferry souls of the dead. So that`s all he does, ferries souls. But every 10 years, he can come on the shore for one day only. And then the 10 year cycle on the sea hits again.

That makes sense but, because fangirls screamed bloody murder over this dark ending for Willabeth (not that I think it`s a good ending, quite the contrary), the writers chickened out and said in an interview that Will could be free after 10 years if Elisabeth was faithful to him. I have even bigger isues with this compromise and here is why:

a) what`s the point of the rather cruel 10 year separation if Elisabeth`s faithfulness isn`t tested in any way? First of all, every man who could pose a temptation to adultery is removed from her path. Jack is gone to a new adventure and, yes, their goodbye was final. Norrington is dead and if you are a Beckabeth or Fengabeth fan, they are dead too. Second and most importantly, she is given the #1 man in her life who is also a constant reminder that she should live a pious life - her and Will`s son. So being faithful is piece of cake in this case which kills the whole point of eventual breaking of the curse. It should`ve been much harder in order to prove that feelings are true

b) When the curse is broken, what of Will? His heart won`t jump back into his body. So he`s a freak. Is he still immortal meaning he won`t age or die while his family will?

c) What of the Flying Dutchman? They said the Dutchman must always have the captain but if Will is set free is that the end of the Dutchman? Or will Calypso put it on autopilot? or will someone else have to volunteer or be forced to ferry souls? Which, again, kills the point of the curse breaking by living a pious life because that`s a condition that doesn`t have anything to do with Elisabeth`s faithfulness.

Complete mess. Seriously, for me, AWE ended when they entered the Locker to save Jack and the rest of the movie is just Locker-induced nightmare for the crew that never made it out of the Locker and is waiting for the movie that will give everyone a proper conclusion. So Will never became the CotFD (it`s just his biggest fear), Jack never lost Pearl to Barbossa (his biggest fear too), Feng and Norringotn never died (Elisabeth`s fear that she`s indeed the Kiss of Death) ,etc. wink

Bwa Ha Ha
Oooh, I like your questioning. Let's see...

a. Well, yeah, but that can be explained by of 'mythical tale'. But I'm technical and thought the same you did...

b. I remember there being a discussion here some time ago about that... I think one theory was that by 'mythically meddling with the curse and circumstances, he created a second curse involving heart-cutting'. But you do make a point about it never being alluded to.

And then...

a. Well, just because all the other guys she knew are dead doesn't mean she can't find a new one. But yes, with a child and all the moral issues surrounding it, I can see why it would be incredibly difficult, though not downright impossible.

b. Never gave much thought to this... Maybe his heart will 'mythically reappear in his body'...

c. Well, before Jones's curse, I imagine someone else was in charge. Or not. It'd just go back to the way it was before.

But yeah, AWE wasn't the best one. Not that it wasn't entertaining. Just confusing and not the best.

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha

a. Well, just because all the other guys she knew are dead doesn't mean she can't find a new one. But yes, with a child and all the moral issues surrounding it, I can see why it would be incredibly difficult, though not downright impossible.


This just reminded me what one of my biggest beefs with AWE is - that Will didn`t set her free from waiting 10 years in celibacy but actually told her to wait ( keep a weather eye on the horizon...it(my heart) has always belonged to you...will you keep it safe? ). IMO, that was a huge blunder on the writer`s part because Will is the most self-less character in the saga...until that moment. I mean, the guy saw her kissing Jack in DMC and decided to give her some space and save her lover from the Locker. What happened?

Asking her to faithfully wait is cruel and unnatural. Especially since the movies established Elisabeth as someone who longs for sexual freedom ( if it wasn`t for these bars, I`d have you already and I so want to be married that wasn`t about marriage itself but sex). Yet Will not only didn`t set her free in that department, but he locked her up in an invisible closter.

Which is a poetic justice come to think of it. First, she dumped Norrington who, from her completely biased POV, represented repression. Yet he was actually the one who gave her freedom to choose sexual partner (Will) and freedom from having unwanted/loveless sex (with him). Then, she killed Jack who understood what she really wanted and was ready to give her ( I am the captain of a ship...and I could perform the marr-i-age...right here...on this deck...right NOW! wasn`t about Jack wanting to settle down but Jack offering a nooky on the deck smokin' ). Not to mention that convos she had with Jack about freedom, curiosity, presuation, where the compass points and why were more psychologically freedom-setting than anything she ever talked about with Will.

OK, bad writing aside, lets pretend characters are real, why didn`t Will set her free like Norrington and Jack? Because as Jack pointed out, he is a eunuch. Not a physical but psychological one. He can wait. He doesn`t feel the urge. There is this bit of the writers commentary on DMC BD where they say that Will was teaching Elisabeth swordfighting while she was hoping they would be consumating their relationship. Hence why she is so frustrated and starts getting attracted to Jack for he is the walking sex. And later the Kiss for the Ages is her way of slaking her lust. There was no lust-slaking during her engagement with Will and there`s certainly none in their marriage for 10 years after their mutual cherry-popping.

So sexual abstinency comes easy to Will and he thinks it will come easy to her (typical soulmate myth). This is partly because Will is a hopeless romantic and thinks that strong emotions defy physical temptation and matter the most and partly because he sexually matured later than Elisabeth. Will is a virgin. Eunuch is just Jack`s mocking way to say it but it means just that. Which is super adorable if you ask me. He was saving himself for the wedding night hence why he thought her swordfight instead of taking advantage of her even though she was more than willing.

However, Elisabeth, who is a virgin too, matured earlier and Will never really figured that out (hence why he asked her to wait for 10 years). Girls mature faster than boys and Will had a misfortune to be not only a fatherless boy but without a other male figure that would take care of him in that department. So the mix of parental depravation, loneliness (he doesn`t seem to have any friends) and romantic fantasy about Elisabeth, created a psychological eunuch who is bent on waiting for the proper wedding night than being sexually curious beforehand. And obviously perfectly capable of more long years of waiting. It comes easily to him. There isn`t repression as much as lack of urge. Not impotency, don`t get me wrong, he performed well on his last day ashore, but lets say he is anti-Jack when it comes to sex. Jack must have it and often talks about it while Will is perfectly OK without it.

And Elisabeth? Well, she is now forced to supress her bodily cravings. We are led to believe that her love is so strong that a decade in an invisible closter will come easy to her. So the girl who wanted freedom, including one to choose her sexual partner (aka husband in those times when out of wedlock sex was no-no) and who was dying to have sex, has now chosen sexual abstinency in the name of love. Which is sexual repression, precisely what she was trying to escape (as that corset in COTB unsubtly symbolized).

But what of men who set her free without getting much appreciation for it (last time I checked, she never appologized for either Kraken thingy or public break up)? Why did they set her free, each in his own way?

Stay tuned for more sex after the break rolling on floor laughing

Ultra150
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I cannot find a specific forum for classified that relates to POTC. Is there one or a decent place to post? Here's a link to my Jet Ski that was made by Disney for the Black Pearl movie:

gallery at imageshack:

profile.imageshack.us/user/PiratesSki


Thanks in advance, sorry about the shameless posting here.

Doug

[email protected]$ [email protected] [email protected]$ ()f th3 [email protected]@n w()rth [email protected] br()

Sparrabella
Originally posted by [email protected]$
[email protected]$ [email protected] [email protected]$ ()f th3 [email protected]@n w()rth [email protected] br()

Fangirls basically wrote DMC since the writers were pandering to their fantasies so much it`s ridiculous. Between 2003 (when COTBP came out)and 2005 (when DMC was shot) this is convo and discussion you could find on the Net:

OMG, OMG, Jack and Elisabeth chemistry is so OMG hot!OMG! I`m fanning myself, OMG, hot,hot,hot! The chemistry! Fireworks! OMG! How hot the kiss would be? OMG, I think I might burn if I ever watched that hotness! OMG, I so want to see the kiss! (twenty million agreeable responses)

OMG, OMG Will is so OMG hot OMG! I want to see him shirtless! OMG, that would be too hot! I might explode if I witness that hotness! OMG! They must take his shirt off! MUST! (eighteen million agreeable responses)

OMG,OMG, what do you think Norrington is like without wig and when he loosen up? You think he may be hot? Plus million dollar question - is his chest smooth like Will and Jack`s or hairy? (fifteen million responses)

So DMC comes out and - surprise, surprise - we get:

Sparrabeth kiss aka Kiss for the Ages (yes, that hot)

Shirtless Will (really hot)

Totally loose drunk, dirty, angsty Norrington (raw sex) and an answer to million dollar question (hairy chest)

I can`t for the love of me understand how AWE went so screwy and anti-fangirl wet dream after fangirl lovefest that was DMC. Either way, I`m glad they wrote that movie which I love as much as I hate AWE (means uber-much).

killamikeisback
I love dmc no question, and i hate awe also no question, you gave a good post

Sparrabella
Originally posted by killamikeisback
I love dmc no question, and i hate awe also no question, you gave a good post

Ah, it warms my heart that someone else loves DMC and hates AWE. It`s been , what, 4 years since that horrid movie and I still can`t get over it. I mean, how could the same people who wrote COTBP and DMC write this abomination? Ok, so you provoked my rant hormone and here`s the rant (too late cause the issue was hot 4 years ago but, as I already pointed out, this is a hot topic for me forever).

Let me start with lame-o deaths. This has always been a huge point of controversy that AWE offed 5 characters in entirely bafling fashion.
So in order of apperance:

Governer Swann. This character dies off screen and conveniently pops up in the underworld to spout a major piece of exposition. Why did this suck? Because of the convenience of BP sailing past his boat of all boats so that they cna get the piece of exposition. Totally cheesy. And they didn`t explain the difference between souls in the water and the dead in the boats. They just invented boats so that Elisabeth could recognize her father. Lame, but not as lame as...

James Norrington. Of all lame AWE deaths this one sparked the most outrage. After building the character for something important in DMC, they decided to wrap him up unceremonially in a cliche death-to-save-OTL (One True Love). This is wrong on so many levels so lets cover them all.

First and foremost, Norrington is a warrior, a soldier, a Spartan if you will. His death wish isn`t saving OTL like Will`s (I`d die for her!) but a glorious death in battle. That how military types like him, King Leonides and General Maximus think.And we know Norrington is fearless, life or death, he doesn`t fear any.

Second, considering all the baggage that Norrington carries on his consciousness (wrecking Dauntless and all those men aboard, being the right hand to the dictator who is arbitrary hanging women and children) , saving OTL doesn`t even approach first step in redemption staricase. If they had him escape with Elisabeth, reach Shipwreck Cove, use his expertise in military strategy to organize pirates to win the battle against much stronger enemy, and have him die knowing that his help was crucial in crushing the dictatorship, that would count for something. I mean, they promoted him into Admiral. How hard it is to give him Admiral Nelson death? All that doesn`t even require that he is on the screen for more than 15 minutes longer than he was. If they wanted him to die which is darn shame cause DMC`s pirate Norrington had amazing potential.

Third, the guy is a proven badass. Sloshed or sober, he can kick ass like nobody`s business. So how on earth he got ran through by some Z-grade deranged fishman? He didn`t even fight, just got ran through. Amensia virus? It`s impossible that he would go dumb in such situation, Elisabeth distraction or not, cause he is a freakin soldier, Spartan, fight is his natural reflex. That was beyond out of character but we`ll encounter the same amnesia virus again.

Fourth, capping off popular character`s death with supposedly comic relief line Nice sword was complete disrespect to fans and character. When I saw the movie at the theater, nobody laughed. In fact, quite a few cringes and angry murmurs were heard.

William Turner. This is, like, the best swordsman in the Caribbean. You wouldn`t know if you only saw how Jones overpowered him in,like, 3 seconds in what was supposed to be comical moment. Not that anyone laughed. He can also wiggle out of any tight situation except the one in which Jack distracted Jones for enough time for Will to run over to grossery store, get some booze, come back and get the gang together for a drinking game. But he didn`t. Yes, the infamous amnesia virus strikes again. William Turner forgets to be active. Jones has him at the point of the sword, turns his head away, looks at Jack, chats with him, makes some snarky comment about Elisabeth while looking at her, while Mr Wiggle Out of Any S*** is lying on the deck as if sunbathing, doing nothing. How about rolling away from Jones? Crawling away? No? That`s so out of character. Then Jones stabs him and everyone is passive. So Jones pauses, enough time to club him over the head, stab the heart, ANYTHING. Hell, nothing. So Jones proceeds to drill an oil hole in Will`s chest. That could`ve been avoided and the first stab may not have been fatal. But drill was, no question about it.

This is second badass character that dies because he forgot how to be a badass. How could any of them forget? Just idiotic plot device whose purpose was to get them die.

Also, they built the melodrama about Will choice between his father and Elisabeth. Is he going to choose Bootstrap`s freedom or life with Lizzie? And in the end, he never made any choice because he was comatose. So Jack decided for him (when he lead his hand to stab the heart). That cheapens the character so much. Instead of have him man up and decide, they conveniently made the thrid party do it so Will stays in good standing with everyone. Complete cop out.

Finally, unwanted comic relief strikes again. When Jack and Elisabeth were parachuting from FD to BP, camera zoomed on Monkey Jack. Like, Why are we supposed to laugh in a moment like this? Again, cringing audience and angry murmurs.

Davey Jones. After stabbing Will and getting into fight with Bootstrap who is some kind of split personality, Jack stabs the heart using Will`s hand (as if Will did it which is a huge plothole cause Will was unconscious and will for stabbing was purely Jack`s). Jones falls over the ramp into whirpool. Whispers Calypso or something as lame (it`s been 10 years, get over it). We never see if they were reunited even though they built their soap opera like it`s going to be a major thing. Just that. He falls over.

Cutler Beckett. Amnesia virus ends its journey in the veins of one Cutler Beckett. This character is, like, the most evil of any villain. While Barbossa and Jones were somewhat humanized (Jones loves Calypso, Barbossa loves green apples and his pet monkey), Beckett is just a big douche with Napoleon complex who secretly wants to be Norrington because Norrington is tall,brave, can handle a sword and have real authority with men. So Beckett gets to FRP this when he personaly takes the lead of the war armada, not that he has a clue about Naval strategy and tactics in battle . Which proves his undoing but not as much as amnesia virus. The guy suddenly forgot to issue a simple order such as Fire. He chocked. Yep, the pirates win not because they were smarter (although FD and BD maneuver was great) but because Beckett choked. And his dumb crew couldn`t act on their own and salvage the situation (Endeavor`s gun power would seriously damage at least BP if order was issued on time). Complete cop out. Yet, unexplicably, he gets a blaze of glory moment, not Will or Norrington, but they gave him some dignified walk down the stairs in slo mo silliness. As if he was Captain George Kirk sacrificing himself and the ship so that 800 lives, including his newborn son Jim, can escape. WTF?

Other issues with AWE:

Already discussed Elisabeth`s wow of decade-long or longer celibacy because Will asked her to wait. So all the "fight against corset" was in vain. Chastity belt (invisible which is worse) replaced it. I mena, when you look at COTBP ending, where Norrington set her free to be herlsef and with Will, and AWE ending where Will bind her in celibacy wait, why the heck she dumped the former? Is that the message? Scarlett finally got Ashley after dumping Rhett but it was a mistake?

Unexplicable turn from Pirates to Brave Scotsmen of William Wallace of the Caribbean.

Elisabeth`s full-blown Mary Sue (Pirate King, Braveheart speech)

No reference to DMC`s major hook and reason for $1 billion boxoffice and thousands of YouTube vids - Sparrabeth attraction.

Good guys, freedom-fighters Barbossa, Ragetti and Pintel. Are we to forget COTBP never happened?

Cartoon embarrassment that are The Breathren Court. In the movie where a little boy gets hanged, pirates are nothing more than lovable bafoons.

Rossio&Elliott`s inability to stick to their guns. The movie was edited so that it is clear Turner is back for only one day every 10 years. For 99% of population, that`s canon. Only 1% read their attempt to to pander to fangirls with 10 years and then freedom explanation which is a cop out that opens big can of worms and has more plot holes than swiss cheese. And, besides, 10 years or ethernity, Will had no right to ask her to wait. That`s not love or marriage and the message is totally Dark Ages sexist and unromantic.

SingaBore.

Multiple Jacks. I get what they tried but it was awfully written.

Giant Calypso with Goa`uld voice - worst special effect and most pointless subplot ever?

Redeeming spot - the score. Magnificent. One Day deserves much better couple to be love theme for.

wow you must be dmc's number one fan how awesome!

killamike*@(89*
what was ure fav part of dmc

Sparrabella
Originally posted by killamike*@(89*
what was ure fav part of dmc

I must admit that I`m an absolute fan of the second half of the movie. I love the movie so much but it does take time to get going. However, from Tortuga onwards, it`s a first-class entertainment with many layers to discuss. So my favorite things in no particular order:

Sparrabeth. This is a classic pairing with all the chemistry, wit and sexy banter that made Rhett&Scarlett and Jack&Rose so iconic. Elisabeth is obviously in a relationship with a man she cannot talk to because, lets face it, we never saw Willabeth having a meaningful conversation. The foundation of their relationship is paper thin, based solely on Elisabeth`s pirate fetish, which isn`t flying too well cause Will is only pirate`s son, not a real pirate. Lets get serious here. Pirate he ain`t. And they can`t talk because they have nothing in common but that fantasy. Only longing glances and angst. But real talk about real issues, especially those that bother her? Never. Enter Jack Sparrow and Jack is wordly man with charisma, charm, wit and sexappeal. He`s a smooth talker but he is also deep. He gets Elisabeth. Will doesn`t. So we get some of the best written Mars/Venus dialog in the movies. This section includes The Kiss for Ages, a trully hot, iconic kiss.

Scruffington aka Norrington gets down and dirty. Aside the fact that he is raw hardcore sex on legs, I loved the character development. Norrington has always been the ultimate Gryffindor (bravery, fearlessness, valor, courage, sleflessness) so it was very cool to see him Slytherin his way because the occasion required. I honestly think they made a huge mistake by not expanding this pirate development because it was a great surprise, really added tons of layers to the character and it was extremly popular with fans. I always loved the character because he is very relatable amid all those OTT colorful characters who are cool but not very realistic, plus Mary Sue and Marty Stu (you know who they are evil face ).

Ello Beasty. Iconic death scene. COTBP had an iconic Jack intro and DMC gave us iconic character exit. AWE gave us nothing but misery.

Threeway swordfight. Of course it was silly but do I get giddy every time. Insanely rewatchable.

Barbossa reveal. Ha,ha, iconic twist. And he`s got his apple too!

Kraken attacks. Just love the Kraken score in the first attack, and Jack`s return with Lizzie clinging to his leg.

Ragetti`s wisdom. He`s a total Ravenclaw.

Davey Jones as the most convincing performance-capture character before Avatar. Really feast for the eye.

Tia Dalma. I liked the idea of having a real woman to offset Elisabeth`s girlchild and back in DMC, there was a promise they`d do something interesting with the character. Boy were we wrong about everything.

Look, I`m not a totally jaded fangirl. COTBP was a better movie as far as narrative flow goes and it was complete. DMC was just first half of the two and they put all the awesome stuff in it to lure people to see At Worst End (not a typo) that pulled the rug from under everyone. But I enjoy DMC more than COTBP which I also totally adore.

killamikeyd9898
Threeway swordfight. Of course it was silly but do I get giddy every time. Insanely rewatchable.

same here i love that part

Sparrabella
Originally posted by killamikeyd9898
Threeway swordfight. Of course it was silly but do I get giddy every time. Insanely rewatchable.

same here i love that part

Choreography was awesome but also fighting styles said a lot about characters. I loved how Will was fighting all fair while Jack and Norrington were fighting dirty to the core (trip overs, pushing, kicking sand in the face). Which just adds evidence to my theory that Norrington was never a model Navy boy but pirate mind all along. I mean, to be good at hunting pirates, one has to think like one, no? We got plenty of it in DMC after foreshadowing in COTBP (when he tried to blow up HMS Interceptor).

kilamike4568103
i agree the norrington had a pirate mind, but i can understand y jack was fighting dirty cuz he is a pirate. but for norrington he had to learn to think like a pirate to hunt them like you said

Sparrabella
Originally posted by kilamike4568103
i agree the norrington had a pirate mind, but i can understand y jack was fighting dirty cuz he is a pirate. but for norrington he had to learn to think like a pirate to hunt them like you said

Which nicely underlines that they aren`t very different. Come to think of it, Jack finds himself in the worst situation of his life when Barbossa leaves him on a desert island with no visible way of escaping and what does he do about it? Gets drunk. Norrington finds himself in the worst situation of his life (he`s just survived hurricane which his crew and ship didn`t, he is pennyless and in hostile territory) and what does he do about it? Gets drunk. You never see Will react to defeat with drunkedness but Jack and Norrington who are supposedly polar opposites (pirate and Navy officer), have quite a share of similarties:

The above discussed drunkedness in the wake of a tough situation

The already discussed dirty fighting

The way they don`t give a damn about personal hygene in the presence of a lady they fancy or at all. Jack is always on dirty-smelly side while Norrington topped that in DMC without flinching or feeling embarrassed. He was totally Frankly my dear, I don`t give a damn (what anyone thinks). Which is very Jack attitude.

The way they screw over one another - Jack by commandeering the Interceptor and Norrington by robbing Jack of DJ`s heart except that when Norrington screws you over, consequences are deadly...Jack always leaves you a nice way out.

I`m sure there are more similarities (Sparrington fans would know, lol) but these stand out. Too bad AWE just...eh. As if whether Jack did some out of the left field character a great dishonor is more important than Jack and Norrington facing each other after Norrington got even for Interceptor by stealing the heart. Come to think of it, Jack finds a chest in the presence of Elisabeth and Norrington. So there`s this moment with Jack in the middle and Norrington and Elisabeth on each side. Neato since Norrington and Elisabeth did him in - Norrington by robbing him off the leverige which totally handed them over to the Kraken, and Elisabeth by chaining him to the mast so that the Kraken wouldn`t take the rest of them.

kilasplice43897
i think that the life of anyone tring to hunt a single enemy such as pirate.

you start to become what you despise classy story

Sparrabella
Originally posted by kilasplice43897
i think that the life of anyone tring to hunt a single enemy such as pirate.

you start to become what you despise classy story

You are right and I think that it also goes both ways. At some point, one starts to admire a worthy enemy and maybe even envy what they have that you don`t. For example, pirates have freedom to do what they want including committing various crimes. Bacially, they dare to defy the law and even if you disagree, there has to be a sneak admiration for the audacity and sneak jealousy about devil-may-care attitude. In short, one admires and envies the selfish impulse.

OTOH, despite all the fredom to do what they want, pirates don`t have what I call the Gryffindor factor - all the vallor, fight for the bigger cause, selfless bravery that Navy represents. So there has to be sneak jealousy about classic hero image that military has as well as admiration that they put other people`s interest`s and big cause ahead of their own. In short, one admires and envies the selfless sacrifice.

On Harry Potter scale, Navy boys are Gryffindor even if some cunning minds would do well in Slytherin, but Gryffindor prevails because scheming is situational and not something that occupies them 100% of the time.

OTOH, pirates are Slytherins because they scheme most of the time, even though many of them would do well in Gryffindor for they don`t lack courage. But opportunisim and self-interest keeps them in Slytherin.

I would put Jack in Gryffindor, though, as a borderline Gryff/Slyth like Harry. Will and Norrington are big Gryffs (who slip into Slyth only when occasion requires but also snap out of it quickly) . Jones is Gryff, fallen Gryff to be sure but sitll a Gryff.

Elisabeth and Barbosa are definitely Slytherins (with lots of Gryffindor but Slyth prevails) as is Beckett (w/o much Gryffindor).

siriuswriter
Ah Sparrabeth. I love you.

Personally, I would have loved it had the series stopped after number one.

BUT. There were a lot of perks in dmc. like, things were set up and i was waiting for awe to give me the punchlines.

aaand i was grievously disappointed. it was as if different people were behind the whole thing. there were a few wonderful ideas, like the "end of the world." but will and elizabeth weren't talking... and that was enough to crush it.

i can go back to cotbp and watch it ANYTIME. dmc i have to space it out a lot, lot more. awe : i've watched it MAYBE three times.

and... yes. big grin

Bwa Ha Ha
I remember hating AWE the first few (VERY few) times I watched it, but if you have it on in the background and kinda forget all about plot, it's not too bad.

But you made me remember something I read on here a while ago: The fact that Jack never found out Norrington died. I mean, did he even find out it was him who gave Beckett the heart? It's like... Everyone forgot about Norrington except Elizabeth, and only because he saved her.

DMC greatly expanded his character and after all that buildup... He just dies. Elizabeth notices, screams, then never mentions it again. Wut?

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
I remember hating AWE the first few (VERY few) times I watched it, but if you have it on in the background and kinda forget all about plot, it's not too bad.

But you made me remember something I read on here a while ago: The fact that Jack never found out Norrington died. I mean, did he even find out it was him who gave Beckett the heart? It's like... Everyone forgot about Norrington except Elizabeth, and only because he saved her.

DMC greatly expanded his character and after all that buildup... He just dies. Elizabeth notices, screams, then never mentions it again. Wut?

That`s certianly the most baffling thing in the whole trilogy and one of (many) reasons why AWE doesn`t sit well with most people. I mean, Norrington totally screws Jack over and we never get to see Jack`s reaction? That`s just complete weirdness.

Moreover, Norringotn works with Jones, actually is Jones`s superior, yet we never get Jones`s reaction to the fact that Norrington is the cause of his misery. Then, when Elisabeth is captured, Jones pretty much can see that Norrington has the same situation like he does - unrequited love - but nobody draws a paralel. Instead, they try to force a paralel with Willabeth which just doesn`t work because of their puppy love.

Now I get that secondary character won`t get as much screen time as leads (or pointless appreance by lets-pander-to-foreign-markets famous guest star) but after DMC built up, surely they could`ve come up with something more satisfying for Norringotn, no? For example, I`m just repeating suggestions from other forums, he could have escaped, organized the pirate armada into coherent fighting force (which they couldn`t because they weren`t military strategists and even Mary Suelisabeth couldn`t pull that one out of her a$$), seen Beckett`s tyrany crushed. Doesn`t take more than 15 minutes of extra screen time for the character. And as I pointed out before, Spartans like him don`t find dying for OTL a worthy death. He made a choice to shoot the rope rather than fend off Bootstrap (knowing that he was giving much weaker opponent a huge tactical advantage) which is because he never feared for himself but did for her, but there is no way that it was how he ever hoped to die.

The kiss was a nice touch, though, basically what GWTW (which POTC ripped off laregely as well as Titanic) descriped as Here's a soldier of the South who loves you, Scarlett. Wants to feel your arms around him, wants to carry the memory of your kisses into battle with him. Never mind about loving me, you're a woman sending a soldier to his death with a beautiful memory. Scarlett! Kiss me! Kiss me... once..." I found this on another forum and agree that that`s what they were going for here. Not romance, not "look what you have missed" but "beautiful memory for the soldier about to die". I`d prefer he lived, though, because pirate version had such amazing potential. Maybe Sparrington fans scared the crap out of Disney.

Bwa Ha Ha
That's another thing: All the convoluted betrayals served only for character (de)construction and plot(???), but we don't really get to see the other characters react to them.

Well, I can see Norrington thinking of dying to protect his OTL as a 'noble death', but certainly not in the way it was executed. A character like his deserved and epic pre-death fight scene.

The whole 'beautiful memory before death' seems like such a waste... He got to 'remember' it for, what, a minute? Then he died. -_-

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
That's another thing: All the convoluted betrayals served only for character (de)construction and plot(???), but we don't really get to see the other characters react to them.

Pretty much. Time and tide, luv. I mean, they made a huge deal of Sparrabeth in DMC and than all we got is Jack brushing it aside and Will going "Oh, silly me I thought you loved Jack" and Elisabeth going "Ha,ha" or something. Well, it would be more fun if that`s what they said because they mostly were biting lips and had hard time articulating anything. Teen angst with non-teen actors, you know the drill.

Well, I can see Norrington thinking of dying to protect his OTL as a 'noble death', but certainly not in the way it was executed. A character like his deserved and epic pre-death fight scene.

I`d say he loved her so much he let go of noble death aspirations just to let her live. So not only he died for her, he died the way that from his military POV was not a worthy death. But that didn`t matter to him because her well-being mattered more. So when he stabbed Jones, it was his last-breath attempt to add some heroic dignity to the proceedings. She was save so he could do something "selfish", just for himself.

One has to wonder what such love would have been like if given a chance.



That`s how you see it but not how he does. For him, that minute meant everything. You are forgetting that he knew he`d die and that shuffles priorities. People who are affraid yarn for immortality, those who aren`t prefer "beautiful memory". Also mind that the kiss wasn`t meant for her to remember him but only for him to remember it. He doesn`t try to bind her to him but sets her free with it. Pretty much, it says "If you have any guilt about not giving me anything, be at peace cause you gave me this". So he sets her free to live and from guilt/regret. And then William binds her in decade(s) long celibacy wait and pretty much pisses all over Norrington`s (and Jack`s efforts) to give her complete freedom.

Look, I`m not defending writing here but it isn`t entirely without merrit.
He didn`t switch sides only because of her. Hearing about Swann`s murder was a huge one because Swann was his father figure or, more precisely, affectionate father figure which he likely didn`t have before meeting him.

Also, when Beckett gave him back his sword, that reminded him of his old life as a protector of citizens, unlike what he has become as Beckett`s right hand in tyrany that suspended all rights and prosecuted all civilians on arbitrary basis.

Finally, he never mentally recovered from wrecking Dauntless and all those people aboard, hence why he resigned from the Navy and pursued privateer "redemption". Notice that when he brought the heart, he didn`t try to negotiate reinstitution into Navy. He wanted the privateer position which is a complete downgrade but from his POV, he didn`t deserve to be a Navy officer anymore. Just a chance to serve his country again somehow. It was Beckett who made him an Admiral on his own will and under EITC banner. So Norrington likely took it as complete severing of Navy ties (aka his good self) until his sword reminded him and then everything snowballed from there. Elisabeth was only the last straw in the build up to turn against Beckett. But I agree that they should`ve have done something epic about it because the character was much more importan that Ragetti and Pintel and M&M who got more screen time and all of it without any real meaning.

Ok, something fun to cheer you up. We know that when one dies at the sea (which he did), one goes to underwater heaven/hell/whatever where Calypso is. One can also escape in a flash of green light . I guess it`s easier for green-eyed people - think Barbossa - kinda like if eyes are mirrors to the soul than green eyes are mirrors to the flash of green which means a soul came back to the world of living. So how long you really think he`s going to stay there? Would wolf like that follow sheep souls in the water and boats? I doubt it. Most importantly, would a woman like Calypso who spent her last 10 years servicing drunk pirates pass on something as rare as a fearless hot young Admiral? What wexes all men is a woman but what wexes all women is a man. rolling on floor laughing

Bwa Ha Ha
Heh heh, that last bit IS pretty cheerful after all that...

By the by, I agre with you on everything except... I honestly don't think he knew he was going to die just then. He probably knew he would before long if he stayed on the ship and they figured out he let the prisoners escape, but I doubt he actually saw Bootstrap as that much of a threat. I dunno. What makes YOU think he knew death was imminent?

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
Heh heh, that last bit IS pretty cheerful after all that...

By the by, I agre with you on everything except... I honestly don't think he knew he was going to die just then. He probably knew he would before long if he stayed on the ship and they figured out he let the prisoners escape, but I doubt he actually saw Bootstrap as that much of a threat. I dunno. What makes YOU think he knew death was imminent?

He knew he was toast because he betrayed "that side" when he let the prisoners go. So short life expectancy was a given, didn`t really matter if it was few minutes later or few hours/days later. And don`t forget that he seemed to have had a sort of a death wish. He said to her but it does not absolve me from my other sins. Most likely wrecking Dauntless and its crew, attacks on other ships (as the Admiral he pretty much approved Dutchman and other fleet ships attacking whoever he found fit) and and civilian executions (again, military executed them and he was the cheif military officer means his approval was a must) were those sins. The movie didn`t dwell into it but you can kinda put two and two together. So Bootstrap ot not, he really didn`t care when, how, by whom. I mean, it`s hard to analyse such a short time with the character whose motives, background and psychology are only hinted but never fully explained like with other characters.

His death is what I call Rowling death as opposed to Tolkien death, which would`ve been more appropriate. Tolkien deaths are always big epic emotional,etc moments. Rowling, OTOH, wants to show death as something that is sudden, random and mostly not for songs to be sung about. Hence why many deaths in HP are just that - pointless, why did this happen? type of a deal that is fairly realistic. But POTC and realism? Eh, they shouldn`t have gone there.

But my major beef is that Bootstrap did it because I sense that there`s some perverse message here but I can`t pinpoint what or why. I mean, Norrington saved Will during the crossing from England and then he let Elisabeth go with Will and even acknowledged Will`s skill in forging swords (while city dumbasses thought it was his drunk boss who made them) which surely should`ve been enough to get him customers for his own enterpreunership, and finally let Elisabeth escape from prison. So why did they think it was a good idea to have Bootstrap of all people do him in? He was good to Bootstrap`s immediate family so I just don`t get the irony. It was bad from every POV especially narrative one. Not a revenge, not justice, not mercy kill, nothing. One big WTF.

If I had a chance to grill the scribes about atrocity that is AWE, my major 3 themes would be:

a) why did you think having Elisabeth wait like a nun for decade or so, married to a freakin severed heart and not a person, was a good way to conclude this plot? Who thought that Will asking her to wait should be seen as a romantic thing and not as a mind-boggling Dark Ages sexism, selfishness of the highest order and complete failure on his part to understand Elisabeth`s character and drive? Why did you think that oat of celibacy was a perfect way to cap off Elisabeth`s Freedom story? Who thought that this ending proves Elisabeth and Will are perfect match and not Elisabeth and Jack (who would never have asked her to wait nor would have Norringotn for the matter but Sparrabeth was a huge deal in DMC so I`m focusing on that)?

b) Why did you build up Norrington as a major player in DMC only to completely drop the character in AWE despite the fact that character development was a big hit with fans and one of most compelling in the trilogy? Who thought that anyone cared more about M&M defecting to pirates side (means you wasted your script on wrong characters)?

c) Why did you think it was a good idea to build up anticipation of all-out war only to have two ships spin on some whirlpool while 100 + other ships didn`t lift a pinky and just watched? And whose idea was to turn Breathren Court into slapstick baffoons?

In conclusion, on all 3 accounts, WTF WERE THEY THINKING?

Bwa Ha Ha
Yeah, he did know he was gonna die, I just never figured it to be just right then. However, you do have a point about him having a bit of a death wish in AWE... So I guess he may have even sort of been welcoming it in his own little way?

Well, thinking back on the first time I saw Bootstrap kill him... It just made me hate Bootstrap, though that's kind of unreasonable as Bootstrap was 'part of the ship' at that point. So I guess the point was just... Irony. Except that there's different kinds of irony, and this kind was just... Not good.

a) Heheh... The 'married to a heart' comment made me laugh, but it IS basically what happened. She's supposed to be a single mom lugging around a heart for ten years and devoting all her time to their imminent son. Not the most ~romantic/meant-to-be of scenarios.

b) Absolutely! I remember thinking as I watched for the first time: "WHY are they still onscreen? What's happening over there? What about over there? *scene change* NO! I don't care about this either!" All in all, a lot of the movie focuses on characters/places no one really cared about.

c) Complete agreement, and also: Now that you brought the buffoon thing up, I'm thinking they figured it wouldn't do to have Jack be the only silly pirate around, but I do think they overdid it...

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
Yeah, he did know he was gonna die, I just never figured it to be just right then. However, you do have a point about him having a bit of a death wish in AWE... So I guess he may have even sort of been welcoming it in his own little way?

To a degree yes (I call it the Eowyn syndrome) but he is someone who`d take responsibility and try to redeem himself rather than just take an easy way out and kill himself. I mean, after he wrecked Dauntless, he was on self-destruction path (drinking, whoring in Tortuga) but not to the point of falling on his own sword. We know he doesn`t fear death so death is no problem for him but it`s responsibility he didn`t want to run away from. besides, killing himself would be self-serving and he prefered to serve others first.



Bootstrap plot was completely unsympathetic to me. He leaves his wife and son to go pirating (I see a pattern here, as Will also thinks women should wait for their men who are God knows where doing God knows what) while lying to them about what he really does. Than he takes Jones`s offer to join his crew. How about manning up and refusing? Yep, gold cruse is a big a$$ suffering but it`s your problem no? Man up. Ok, so his son is schemed into service on FD and Bootstrap suddenly remembers to behave like a father. Not 18 or so years ago when his son needed one but now that he is a grown man who should get independent from his parents. Again, man up, don`t reveal who you are (because it`s a shock, OK?) but help regardless. yet he reveals himself because, let face it, it isn`t love but the fact he is totally screwed and has nobody left to care for him so his son is suddenly welcome in his life. Stellan did inject humanity and made him more likable than the script did but based on everything that is written about the character, everyone`s better off without him. I`m kinda pissed at Jack for thinking so highly of Bill knowing that Bill left his family. C`mon, not as good man as you give him credit for, Jackie.

Anyway, Will being a goody-two-shoeser naturally goes overboard with what kind of help he`ll provide and Bill doesn`t tell him not to try to kill Jones. No "Promise me you won`t stab the heart". Which is exactly what he should have told him since Waywern hinted at what happens if you do. And then he starts going crazy and killing the man who did for his son more than he ever did. Completely random and stupid. Finally, he stays aboard FD to make up to Will. Lmao. No, seriously. Lmao. Where would you go without Will, old chap? You stayed because you have nowhere to go, lol. And his stay aboard the FD is huge plothole because FD must have a captain but not the crew. The whole point of being CotFD is to be alone for 10 years until one day and then 10 again. No chat buddies and that sort of thing. Just dumb character altogether. They clearly wanted a Star Wars homage here (Vader, Luke, Emperor) and then didn`t finish it.



It`s a complete bulls*** that abstinence crowd (which Twilight brought out of the closet in force) buys as ultimate proof of love. But what to expect from a romance based on the thinnest of paper thin foundations? Elisabeth`s "love" for Will is based on one thing only - her pirate fetish. Not on who he is ( a guy who prefers honest living, has no interest in pirating and is bigger virgin than she is) but who she wants him to be (because once upon a time he wore a pirate pendant) and what he never becomes (bodice-ripping rake who does darring-do`s for living that rock the establishment which she, for some reason, dispises so much). OTOH, his "love" is based on the fact that she is beautiful, unattainable and once saved his life which is enough for him to build a saint-like image of her which is totally contradictory to what she really is ( selfish, dishonest, horny temptress).

So when Beckett interrupts their marriage, he (temporarily) saves them from the biggest mistake of their lives which already started to rear its ugly head when her come hither looks and moves were rebuffed in favor of swordfighting lessons. In short, complete mismatch. Had it not been for his CotFD obligation that keeps them apart from learning how wrong they are for each other, and thus keeping the fantasy alive, they wouldn`t have lasted. Anyway, movies do a great job at (unintentionally) outlining this because of the above mentioned zero common ground and because Jack emerges as the figure who can make her dreams a reality (save for bodice-ripping because he is such a pillar of sexappeal and smooth talking that women rip their bodices as well as his when they see him).

Unlike Will who wouldn`t do it without proper wedding, Jack figures Elisabeth would in a heartbeat and proceeds to open her mind about it. And not just sex. Elisabeth wants the life of adventure but Will is not an adventurer or pirate or even a professional hero. He is an accidental hero if Lizzie needs it (because he has too much time on his hands and not much to be responsible for) but end of COTBP showed that they were settling down, and in DMC, Beckett`s men break into Will`s shop to arrest him indicating he went back to his old job so adventure is no more on the menue. Not exactly as sexy as having a real pirate hubby (Jack) or pirate hunter/military hero hubby (Norrington). Men who, you know, do heroics on daily basis, not once in a blue moon when wifey is in distress. stick out tongue But back on topic, Jack makes her a Pirate King thus fulfilling her ultimate dream. Heck, Sao feng makes her a captain of the pirate ship. What did Will give her in that regard? Nada. Told her to wait and gave her a son so she cannot run wild.

So instead of having a real man for a husband, either a pirate or piraty Navy guy, she chooses a surgically removed heart. Which is poetic justice cause Will was never a bodily type like her anyway, just OMG immaterial love. Longing looks, promises to wait, more waiting, more separation, more longing. Heck, he made her wait for decade(s) and gave her the heart to remind her every day that she must wait. So immaterial hubby is what she gets. Not at all what she strived for (freedom to slake her lust among other things which Mr Pirate and Mr Navy would know how to satisfy well considering that, unlike Mr Virgin, they have long experience in that department) but apparently that`s what she settled for. Oh, man. I mean, this is such garbage that begs the question how the heck they went from "No to corset" to "yes to chastity belt". Did the writers get split perosonality or some Bible belt preacher wrote the script and forced them at the gun point to sign it as theirs? I simply can`t explain.



As far as unnecessary scenes go, my major beef is with M&M defecting subplot. I mean, who the heck cares? The only character whose switching to pirate side anyone cared about was Norrington and they screwed the pooch here. As for Pirate Lords just standing there and not trying to engage other ships in fight, it completely missed opportunity to introduce different styles of fighting. That would have been something because surely Chinese pirates fight differently from African or Middle Eastern,etc. Could have been amazing action spectacle. But, again, without Norrington escaping they couldn`t have pirates pull a legitimate military offensive. Epic fail.



Jack is a silly pirate with a mind of a genius which is why he works. These buffoons were just that, buffoons and useless to boot. No distinctive personality. Just different clothes, accents and nationality but one big caricature and not at all funny to begin with. Plus, this was the meeting of Pirate highest leadership and they behave like Tortuga bar brawlers? These are men and women that command respect and fear because? These are men and women who are freedom`s only hope??? Epic fail. In a movie that opens with a hanging of a child, world`s most feared pirates are Jar Jar Binks! Created to appeal to 3 years olds. And as I mentioned in previous paragraph, they weren`t even given a chance to fight and show different kinds of badassness. Nada. Total waste. heck, Sao Fang played by a freakin martial arts legend Chow Yun Fat wasn`t given a chance to show his fighting prowess. Serious misfire this movie is. (I so need Yoda smilie)

Bwa Ha Ha
I completely agree on everything here, with the only downside being that we can't really discuss what an epic fail AWE was without repeating the same stuff.

We could move on to critique specific scenes or something... I dunno. What do you think?

By the by, you're very good at writing explanatory/persuasive essays. Did you study it, or is it just natural? I love it!

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
I completely agree on everything here, with the only downside being that we can't really discuss what an epic fail AWE was without repeating the same stuff.

That`s totally true. So moving on in T- 5...4...3...2...1...done. Happy Dance



Thank you! I guess I just love to rant. laughing It`s easier when you are passionate about subject matter.



Absolutely. I`ll start with something that`s been bugging me for a long time, namely Titanic paralels. If you watch COTBP after Titanic, you`ll see that Elisabeth is created with Rose in mind. Similarities are really eyes popping but they really don`t work in COTBP as well as they did in Titanic. Reason being, Rose is disgusted with her class with a good reason, while Elisabeth`s "yarn for freedom" doesn`t make much sense cause nobody is preventing her from anything. Lets take a closer look:

Rose is forced into an arranged marriage by her cold mother who openly blackmails her into it by playing on her daughter`s guilt. Basically, she says that they are bankrupt and if Rose doesn`t marry Cal, the mother would have to work as a seamstress and how terrible that would be? This is punctuated by her tying of Rose`s corset to drive the point that Rose is trapped with no choice but to comply. Furhtermore, her fiance is a total douche who slaps her around, doesn`t let her express her personality, has complete disdain for her interest in arts, is a bigot and even has some mean looking, gun carrying henchman. All this suffocates Rose to the point of contemplating suicide by drowning. We can see why she was driven to that state of mind and why she wants to break free.

OTOH, we have Elisabeth who wants to break free from her equaly wealthy society but it is absolutely unclear why. Unlike Rose`s mother, her father dotes to her every wish and is genuinely kind and carrying but most importantly, he does not force her into arranged marriage. The decision is entirely on Elisabeth. This is something that fans always forget but at no point Weatherby orders Elisabeth to marry Norrington. In fact, when she accepts the proposal conditionally, her father immediately picks up on that it isn`t a love marriage for her and tries to tell her it would be OK not to go on with it.

Swann favors Norringotn because he secretly wants a son and Norrington is a son he never had. He also knows that he loves Elisabeth and thinks (wrongly) that Elisabeth loves him back. In short, Swann supports the couple because he thinks it`s a love marriage. But he supports them, he doesn`t forces the decision on her. When he talks about promotion, it`s pure father`s pride. he loves the guy, knows that he loves his daughter, thinks his daughter feels the same and he wants to make her happy by showing that he is happy for her choice too. So when he says to Elisabeth He fancies you and that`s punctuated with tying of the corset, the impact is not like in Titanic. There is no pressure or reason to feel suffocated. If she feels that there`s any, that`s her problem but Weatherby does not force her to do anything.

It`s easy to see why Swann would make a mistake and think that Elisabeth loved Norrington. She obviously didn`t flirt with anyone, her pining for Will was unknown to him cause it was interest from afar, not a close friendship to give him hints (her conditional acceptance of the proposal was the first real hint to him what is really going on) , she and Norrington moved in the same circles since he was working closely with Swann (very likely was invited to diner at the house many times), and she always had a keen interest in pirates, seas, naval strategy, ships, which is Norrington`s job. Finally, father`s pride. Like I said, he is the son Swann never had, which is why he favored him over much smarter matches.

Now about the smart match. IMO, if Weatherby wanted a smart match, he would ship Elisabeth to London to attend London seasons and find herself at least a Lord or even some nobility. That he sticked to the local boy is saying that he wasn`t looking for status but genuinely felt there was love.

More to come when I get back from work. big grin

Sparrabella
Continuation...

Ok, so why the heck she felt restrained? God knows and maybe not even him. I`d say the chick is just a spoiled brat who doesn`t know what she wants and who just likes to go slumming. You know, the grass is greener. Unlike Rose who had a good reason to break away from her mother, why the heck Elisabeth totally forgot about her dad until she remembered he existed when she ran into him in the Land of the Dead or whatever that place was called? What was she thinking that would happen to her dad after letting her escape? Walk free, sip tea like nothing happened? What an insensitive selfish b**** and a fool to boot.

Ok, one may say if dad was as good as I say he was (and he was!), how about her fiance, perhaps something was wrong with him. After all, Rose had a good reason to escape from Cal and everyone, so much so that she took Jack Dawson`s name as hers (Rose Dawson) forsaking her own. Which made perfect sense in the end of the movie because Jack saved her in every way a woman could be saved. But when Elisabeth takes Turner`s name to deceive Barbossa, the effect is lost. Yeah, yeah, it`s supposed to mean she`s married to him in her mind and heart but it sounded like Coughripoffcough. big grin

Anyway, back to Huxley vs Norrington. On top of being such a major pr*ck that he gives Jon Mayer run for his money, Huxley is also most useless individual. He is waiting to inherit family money by doing nothing except likely playboying. With a fiance/future hubby like that, who wouldn`t have a nervous breakdown and thought that jumping into freezing ocean is a better option? Actually, tossing him is the best option but Rose was seriously deperate so she took it on herself. Heck, being unable to breathe when such jerk proposes to you, on top of fighting tight corset, would make perfect sense. But that`s Rose. Elisabeth, OTOH...

Why the heck she fainted? Yeah, I know tight corset but they used is as a metaphore that, IMO, seriously doesn`t stick. Because there is no Huxley to justify her overraction to proposal and allergy to higher society and their male members. Unlike Rose, Elisabeth was sincerely loved by a military hero who turned out to be more open minded that she gave him credit for. Case in point, she was abducted by most notorious pirates (read:rapists, robberes,etc) and at the time when an unmarried girl`s reputation would suffer from being seen without a chapperone, this was totally and irrevocably ruinous. Disney movie or not, this has to be put in the context of the time. She was ruined. Done. Not good for marriage. Ever. Doesn`t matter if her honor was intact, that there`s shadow of a doubt was enough to cast her out. That it would likely be taken against her will mattered zilch. She was ruined. On top of that, she is found on a desert island in her underdress with a notorious pirate and womanizer Jack Sparrow. And what does her fiance do? Takes her back without flinching! That is unheard of in situations like this back in 18th century. That he never brought up the matter of her honor shows that his stance on this matter is forward-thinking. Obviously, against all expectations, he doesn`t put much stock in woman`s physical honor aka virginity. He isn`t one so she doesn`t have to be either. No double standard. Come to think of it, he became relaxed around her in DMC where both of them were officially ruined so that`s definitely a pattern. He doesn`t care. Honor no honor, he loves her the way she is. Which was proven when she escaped through the window to find Will and Norrington took her back again without question or threats. he wouldn`t try to change her. Unlike Rose who got a slap accross her face and broken plates after she was caught only dancing and drinking below decks. No suspicion of sex. Dancing and drinking, witnessed by Huxley`s gorilla.

Ok, so naysayers may go "Well, she is Governor`s daughter and he was after status so that`s enough to swallow pride". Nope. Status-conscious man wouldn`t take a ruined woman no matter who her father is and how much money she has. There`s plenty of fish. Being the butt of jokes because of the lady`s supicious honor is harder to endure than investing in courting of another smart match. he wasn`t after her status because he sincerely loved her and her father which is proven when he proposed after the promotion that put him on equal footing with The Governor. Not before. Very important to distinguish. If he did it before, than it could have seemed to Governor like he was trying to cash in. But earning his own status of the same rank only in different profession (Governor the highest government offical in PR, Norrington the highest military offical in PR) was like saying "I don`t need your wealth or name or prestige because I have earned all by myself". Which he did. We know that when he resigned, he was penniless because his military comission was his income. No plan B family inheritance and that sort of thing. Just his work. Unlike Huxley who wanted to keep Rose because he thought she was still wealthy (their bankruptcy was kept a secret from him by both Rose and her mother) and who was waiting for his father to die to get the money.

Therefore, when Rose spits into Huxley`s face, we cheer, it`s very cathartic (sp?). But when Elisabeth dumps Norrington in public, emotional center of the story switches from Willabeth to Norrington and stays there. It`s very downbeat. Because break up is more relatable than fairytale romance that doesn`t happen in real life. This is much more closer to home and everyone experienced it one way or the other and by that time everyone realizes that he`s a good man too. I still cannot fathom why the writers did that considering that it did take away sympathy for Willabeth and made rooting for them hard since their happiness was earned on another good man`s misery. It really left the bad taste in the mouth and rendered her fight for freedom from their marriage completely pointless since he set her free from the obligation as soon as he realized she didn`t love him. When he says so this is where your heart trully lies? you know he would never propose to her if he didn`t think her heart lied with him. No forced marriage here. He thought it was love marriage for both of them.

Oh, and in DMC, oh my God. I mean, have you seen a more beautiful man? Jesus Christ that deleted scene Map Is Finished. Wow. Holy s***! I mean, he is intensly gorgeous in DMC but in this deleted scene, it`s like having an orgasm for the first time. I`m talking about 7 Disc Blue Ray BoxSet, disk 7. O.M.G. No Cal Huxley here. I seriously don`t get Elisabeth character and contribute it to bad writing. Elliott and Rossio have no clue how to write women. Good job with male characters, some more than others, but Elisabeth is a complete misfire.

Bwa Ha Ha
Well, then. I must say, you are INTENSELY passionate about the subject matter. smile

And sorry I was gone for a while, had some stuff to attend to. Back to business!

I was watching Titanic just the other day and remember thinking of POTC, but I couldn't place why exactly. Duh! It's what they were trying to emulate! No wonder it wasn't so obvious, they absolutely failed at it!

You make very good points and bring up something I always was a bit disconcerted by: Did Elizabeth care so little for her dad that she just ran off and didn't seem to spare him a thought until she realized he was dead? That is selfishness of the highest degree.

He never seemed particularly demanding about the whole Norrington marriage. In fact, the only thing he ever seemed to actively discourage was her fascination with pirates, and even that he copes with.

And, like you said, Norrington honestly thought she meant that proposal acceptance thing she said when they rescued her from the island. If anything, that final scene is downright heartbreaking.

LOL And I love your little bout of flailing at the end there. stick out tongue Sadly, I don't have the DMC deleted scenes, so I can't even begin to imagine...

Sparrabella
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
You make very good points and bring up something I always was a bit disconcerted by: Did Elizabeth care so little for her dad that she just ran off and didn't seem to spare him a thought until she realized he was dead? That is selfishness of the highest degree.

One of reasons why I don`t like Elisabeth is that she doesn`t care for anyone. Even her obsessive pursuit of Will is more OCD than caring and her regret over feeding Jack to the Kraken was more her ego`s inability to accept her unperfect, dark side than genuine compassion. That was for her once we undo the locker thingy, I`ll be automatically a good person again. All really strong female characters in literature and movies have moments where you can see they care for more people than one just their love interest. In Titanic, Rose showed care for Mr Edwards, other passengers,etc. Scarlett O`Hara, another character that POTC referenced (I call POTC GWTW where Scarlett and Ashley hooked up) showed care for Ashley, Melly, her parents, Tara, Mamie, just to name a few. Ellen Ripley cared for her cat, her crew, Newt, Hicks and other marines and finally Bishop. But Elisabeth is so insensitive and lacks vulnerability that all those other heroines have which makes them relatable and appealing. Just an all around annoying, impossible character.



This is how she should have been written too. He is a badass character who is also vulnerable and we see him at his most vulnerable as well as at his most badass several times in the series. All the best fictional heroes and heroines have that mix - Rambo, for example, has two memorable breakdowns that don`t take anything from his manliness, quite the contrary, make him more a man than if he was just a killing machine. Same goes for Maximus the Gladiator, Braveheart, Aragorn, Rhett, Jack Sparrow,etc . Women - Scarlett, Rose, Sarah Conor, just to name a few. They are believable because they feel and react like real people do. But Elisabeth the Pirate King who always breezes through every mess she creates without a scratch that lasts longer than 3 minutes? mad



Lol, I did get carried away by the male beauty here but the scene itself is something they should have put in DMC because it is really important. It`s the continuation of the heart delivery scene and it`s a great character moment for Beckett and especially Norrington (very emotional reaction to the promotion and return of his sword plus emoting green eyes close-up) and we see Davey Jones without his hat (he wears a pirate bandana underneath, very cool). Also it forshadows the war that they promised in AWE. I can only imagine they cut it because it didn`t feature any of the three main stars so it was deemed expendable. But it`s really great and completely finished with the score that resembles Inception theme (when FD appears at the harbour, the beat goes Inception). Hopefully someone will post it on YouTube so you can see it and swoon. Or get the blue ray. Prices are down so they can be found for very affordable and DVDs are becoming obsolete anyway. The industry is pushing blue like crazy, that`s the future.

My other major deleted favorite is the scene in AWE where Beckett and Jack recall why Jack was branded (he liberated human cargo or as Jack says People are not cargo. ) It`s an extended version of Jack and Beckett convo where Beckett thinks he roped Jack into betraying the Breathren while Jack has it all planned ahead. That`s such an important piece of character info so I`m baffled they cut it out.

But back to GWTW reference, I do like Jack`s Once was quite enough rebuff of Elisabeth`s attempt to kiss him again. I call it Jack`s Frankly my dear, I don`t give a damn. I`m a huge Sparrabether but I love the fact that although he admired her cunning when she handcuffed him, he also stopped being interested. The chick is just too much and I like to think that he never really forgave her. After all, he came back overcoming his self-preservation and proving he was a good man, and she punished him for it! That they fetched him from the locker only cheapened her because once her deed was undone, she went back to being her selfish, careless self who didn`t even apologize. But that he didn`t show any interest afterwards, save for fulfilling her dream to become the ultimate pirate and saving her precious Ashley, I mean Will, shows that he was done with her. Not what we Sparrabethers wanted but it works as a character development for him.

IMO, she had to give Will instructions when they finally did the nasty. Put your hand here...no not that high...lower...more left...stop...squeeze...no, not like a sponge! What cna you do, the guy read only Hot Iron Manual. At least she read bodice rippers. Jack, of course, knows Kama Sutra by heart, hand and everything else (he was yoga meditating in DMC while Norrington was digging the chest so you bet he checked out India`s other most famous contribution to the world) and Norrington serves others not only himself so he would go down on her a lot to ensure her pleasure. stick out tongue (this smilie is an intended pun).

Ok, so propose what we discuss next and i`ll think up some passionate critique. big grin

ToddianGirl
Thank you so much Sparrabella for clearing some things up now I have a better understanding. Okay I have 2 questions first when Elizabeth was saying good bye to everyone, walking up to Jack he did not look at her first he seemed sad, then she goes into the whole it would never had worked between us, Jack answers and say's "Keep Telling Yourself that Darling" second when Jack was in Jones locker and he "Killed" one of his multiples before that his multiple say's "Perhaps if you gave the man another chance" Jack Say's "Shall I?"("Stabs his multiple) and say's "That Sort of Thinking Got Us Into This Mess" Do you think he was referring to Elizabeth in that line? And what do you make of the whole "Tell Telling Yourself That Darling"

Sparrabella
Originally posted by ToddianGirl
Thank you so much Sparrabella for clearing some things up now I have a better understanding.

You are welcome!



Keep telling yourself darling is from my POV forshadowing of how she will spend the next decade - trying to convince herself that choosing Will over Jack was such a great idea and that she and Jack so wouldn`t work. Which is bulls*** and his quote pretty much says that only in a backhanded way. The significance of the interchage here is that Elisabeth is finished with adventure life and is taking the life of a devoted wife, except that her husband is a severed heart in the chest, not a real man. She did not have to leave BP and the crew but spend that decade with them, doing pirating and all kinds of stuff she always fantasized about. But that would also pose a threat to her faithfulness to Will. So in order to remain faithful for a decade, she is removing herself from temptation to stray (Jack) and he figures that out and mocks her. Than she proves his point when she leans over to kiss him, to which he slaps her verbally that he isn`t interested after what happened last time. Plus, she made her choice. You want to live like a nun, I`m not gonna change that. You chose, I respect it.

In short, the quote means "You screwed yourself over with this choice and you know it and will spend a decade repressing regret over such a bad decision." I mean, Jack gave her freedom of choice. Norrington gave her freedom of choice. Will took it from her. One can say, "But she didn`t have to agree so it was her free will!" No it wasn`t free because he asked her. He was cursed and misrable and asked her to wait so he has something to look forward to. It`s selfish and also manipulative because how could she say No? It was his call to tell her not to wait. He was cursed, she shouldn`t have been with him. It`s his burden to bare not hers. He should have taken his heart with him, instead of entrusting her so she is reminded every day that she must wait. And while waiting, she will think of her old life quite often and Jack will pop up on her mind and she will repeat aloud "I made the right choice, it would never have worked between us" because she knows that she screwed herself over but it`s too late to fix it. So no life of adventure, no husband, nothing., She ended up with nothing.



I think that he was refereing to Elisabeth in that he gave himself another chance to prove he was a good man, because of her, and when he did, not only she tricked him in order to kill him but it was in such a way that denied him a dignifying death worthy of a good man. I mean, tied to the mast and helpless. That`s not dignity. But he managed to release himself and die a hero, which her foul intent would rob him of. So it was definitely about her since she motivated him to get in touch with his honest streak more often and than punished him for being a good man. I don1t think he ever forgave her, love or no love, she screwed him over in more ways than one. And then, she screwed herself over when she chose the eunuch. Serves her right. I mean, the whole irony of her yarn for sexual liberation only to end up living in a decade long celibacy and her yarn for adventure life as a pirate, only to end up living a quiet life as a doting single mom. That1s not what she fought for.

So, yeah, Jack`s retort sums up all that.

ToddianGirl

Sparrabella
OMG, that song`s perfect! laughing

I wouldn`t say Will is a pansy. He`s a boy, not a man, which is why he didn`t pull a Norrington (read: do the the manly thing) in the end. Just take a look at the aftermath of Barbossa`s attack on Port Royal. The city is badly damaged, there are dead, wounded and likely alive people trapped under the rubble, so military is working overtime. The city is their responsibility and Norrington being highest ranking military offical is responsible for the city. So they try to establish safety and order, help the survivors, tend to wounded, bury the dead and figure out where the ship sailed. But William would have none of it because he cares only for Elisabeth so Norrington should drop everything and mobilize everyone in search of her. This is how a boy who obviously has too much time on his hands and too little responsibility thinks (he has no friends and family and I`m sure his drunk master remebers to feed the donkey). Screw the city (for what can I do about it anyway?), Elisabeth is all I care (tell that to some mom whose kids are trapped in the basement after the house fell down when canon hit it). It`s utterly insensitive and childish, not at all romantic. So the boy throws a tantrum at the man who has responsibility for thousands of people no matter how much in his heart he wants to spring into saving his love. And the man fulfills his immediate responsibilites first otherwise even his chick would have lost any respect for him no matter how flattering it may be if he said FU to the wounded, homeless, trapped,etc and rushed to save her over everyone else. She would lose respect. But the boy has no obligations to anyone and his job sucks so how hard it is for him to play a weekend adventurer? Not at all.

I pitty those poor souls who saw this as a contest in "who loves more, oh must be the guy who jumped into the rescue mission" (because, you know, he didn`t have to coordinate 30 + rescue missions going all over the city at the same time). And Elisabeth is a girl, not a woman, which is why she chooses a boy over a man.

Now Jack is a real man too. He may be on man-child side unlike Norrington who you can see was never a child, but soldier of the empire from the day he was born, but he is a real man nonetheless. He treats Elisabeth like a man would treat a woman. However, problem here isn`t just that Elisabeth is, unfortunatley, a girl who can`t appreciate a real man. What makes Willabeth so irritating to non-fans (aside complete lack of chemistry) is that she atributes all Jack traits to Will although he neither has them nor he ever pretended to have them. The guy simply isn`t a wordly, free-spirited seducer-adventurer that she in her crazy mind thinks he is. Which is why I keep comparing POTC to GWTW and Will to Ashley Wilks. Will is Ashley. We know that he isn`t a pirate nor will ever be yet Elisabeth thinks he`s the pirate of pirates. And since POTC is told from her POV, it`s irritating that we are forced to accept this without a single evidence in favor of it. It`s like Scarlett who always imagined that Ashley was something he was not alhtough everyone could see (the reader and other characters) that he isn`t all that and that they weren`t compatible at all. But she built this image of him that she held onto even though it ruined her chance for happiness. Same happend with Liz.

And now that we are on the subject of GWTW, if Norribethans ever wondered what Elisabeth and Norrington marriage would be like (if she kept her promise), just read GWTW. It would go down exactly like Rhett and Scarlett marriage. He loves her, supports all her modern endeavors, sexually satisfies her but she stubbornly won`t give him a chance emotionally and keeps holding on to her fantasy love who is too prudish to fool around with a married woman. So she thinks of him while in bed with her husband and sighs as in "I wish I was in Will`s arms" and Norrington isn`t stupid so they argue. He starts to drink openly, she starts to drink secretly. They have a daughter whom he loves like mad because she is his little Elisabeth, while she is somewhat reserved because the child has green eyes and chesnut hair and she wishes they are black. More arguing, more drinking, more rough drunken sex. She won`t have more kids. Locking the bedroom door does not have intended effect. New pregnancy. Fight. Miscarriage. You take a pick whether he finds a Belle Watling-type of comfort and whether the daughter dies in a freak accident with a pony or some other. Marriage over. Now she wants him back. It would go exactly like that.

ToddianGirl
Originally posted by Sparrabella
OMG, that song`s perfect! laughing

I wouldn`t say Will is a pansy. He`s a boy, not a man, which is why he didn`t pull a Norrington (read: do the the manly thing) in the end. Just take a look at the aftermath of Barbossa`s attack on Port Royal. The city is badly damaged, there are dead, wounded and likely alive people trapped under the rubble, so military is working overtime. The city is their responsibility and Norrington being highest ranking military offical is responsible for the city. So they try to establish safety and order, help the survivors, tend to wounded, bury the dead and figure out where the ship sailed. But William would have none of it because he cares only for Elisabeth so Norrington should drop everything and mobilize everyone in search of her. This is how a boy who obviously has too much time on his hands and too little responsibility thinks (he has no friends and family and I`m sure his drunk master remebers to feed the donkey). Screw the city (for what can I do about it anyway?), Elisabeth is all I care (tell that to some mom whose kids are trapped in the basement after the house fell down when canon hit it). It`s utterly insensitive and childish, not at all romantic. So the boy throws a tantrum at the man who has responsibility for thousands of people no matter how much in his heart he wants to spring into saving his love. And the man fulfills his immediate responsibilites first otherwise even his chick would have lost any respect for him no matter how flattering it may be if he said FU to the wounded, homeless, trapped,etc and rushed to save her over everyone else. She would lose respect. But the boy has no obligations to anyone and his job sucks so how hard it is for him to play a weekend adventurer? Not at all.

I pitty those poor souls who saw this as a contest in "who loves more, oh must be the guy who jumped into the rescue mission" (because, you know, he didn`t have to coordinate 30 + rescue missions going all over the city at the same time). And Elisabeth is a girl, not a woman, which is why she chooses a boy over a man.

Now Jack is a real man too. He may be on man-child side unlike Norrington who you can see was never a child, but soldier of the empire from the day he was born, but he is a real man nonetheless. He treats Elisabeth like a man would treat a woman. However, problem here isn`t just that Elisabeth is, unfortunatley, a girl who can`t appreciate a real man. What makes Willabeth so irritating to non-fans (aside complete lack of chemistry) is that she atributes all Jack traits to Will although he neither has them nor he ever pretended to have them. The guy simply isn`t a wordly, free-spirited seducer-adventurer that she in her crazy mind thinks he is. Which is why I keep comparing POTC to GWTW and Will to Ashley Wilks. Will is Ashley. We know that he isn`t a pirate nor will ever be yet Elisabeth thinks he`s the pirate of pirates. And since POTC is told from her POV, it`s irritating that we are forced to accept this without a single evidence in favor of it. It`s like Scarlett who always imagined that Ashley was something he was not alhtough everyone could see (the reader and other characters) that he isn`t all that and that they weren`t compatible at all. But she built this image of him that she held onto even though it ruined her chance for happiness. Same happend with Liz.

And now that we are on the subject of GWTW, if Norribethans ever wondered what Elisabeth and Norrington marriage would be like (if she kept her promise), just read GWTW. It would go down exactly like Rhett and Scarlett marriage. He loves her, supports all her modern endeavors, sexually satisfies her but she stubbornly won`t give him a chance emotionally and keeps holding on to her fantasy love who is too prudish to fool around with a married woman. So she thinks of him while in bed with her husband and sighs as in "I wish I was in Will`s arms" and Norrington isn`t stupid so they argue. He starts to drink openly, she starts to drink secretly. They have a daughter whom he loves like mad because she is his little Elisabeth, while she is somewhat reserved because the child has green eyes and chesnut hair and she wishes they are black. More arguing, more drinking, more rough drunken sex. She won`t have more kids. Locking the bedroom door does not have intended effect. New pregnancy. Fight. Miscarriage. You take a pick whether he finds a Belle Watling-type of comfort and whether the daughter dies in a freak accident with a pony or some other. Marriage over. Now she wants him back. It would go exactly like that.

WOW that was great! You basically summed it all up I agree Will is a boy and a very annoying one, okay so what if Elizabeth had an hot fling with Jack? During the time she was on the BP with him in DMC in her mind "Looking For Will" She points out that she wants to be married(She needs sex) Jack offers that to her with the whole perform a marriage on the ship. And why do you think Jack voted for her to be the pirate king? She calls out her own name, then Jack adds his vote for her Elizabeth responds with "What?" Jack answers with "Curious isn't it?" At the end of AWE she gives up her pirate life along with her job as Pirate King. Looking back on it I don't know why she was even given that title since she's gonna give up her all pirate life, her and Will should had NEVER gotten married I wish they didn't and Elizabeth was just on her own living her own life, and Will being the Captain of the FD.

Sparrabella
Originally posted by ToddianGirl
WOW that was great! You basically summed it all up I agree Will is a boy and a very annoying one, okay so what if Elizabeth had an hot fling with Jack? During the time she was on the BP with him in DMC in her mind "Looking For Will" She points out that she wants to be married(She needs sex) Jack offers that to her with the whole perform a marriage on the ship.

First, thank you. I`m glad that you like my ramblings. Now, as for hot fling with Jack, they had a thing but it wasn`t a hot fling. It never happened in canon. No sex if that`s what you mean.

I thought I`d be married by now. I`m so ready to be married is extremly important because it didn`t specify "to Will" but was spoken in general and we know that it meant sex. Therefore, IMO, that was her disappointment with Will not wanting to consumate their relationship, which is what she was more than willing to do. T&T said in the commentary that she was frustrated with Will`s school of swordfight because she wanted to have sex instead. It means that she started to have second thoughts and warm up to other man because she and Will obviously weren`t compatible.

IMO, she matured fast which includes awakened sexual appetite while he lagged well behind in that development (late puberty). However, because of her pirate fetish developed in childhood and unfortunate coincidence that Will wore pirate medallion when he was a child, she projected her rakish, bodice-ripping pirate fantasy on him and spent good part of her life waiting for him to finally live up to it and he never did (I do not count their post-wedding day as fantasy fulfillment).

So I took DMC development with Jack as her realization that first love doesn`t have to be the only love and that one can be wrong about people because fantasy and habit that comes from it cloud one`s judgment. And pining for Will was her habit rather than anything else because they didn`t know each other well, hence why her fantasy mind filled in the blanks on what he was like and his did the same about her (and both were wrong). But those blanks were filled with charaacter traits that she found in Jack. Therefore, logical development would have been to move from first love daydreams to physically and emotionally intense and satisfying relationship with a man who is actually what she is looking for in a man. When Jack offers to perform a marr-i-age, we know it means sex, not a wedding ceremony. Which is a perfect rapport with her because she calls sex "ready to be married". It`s a great interplay that outlines that they are very much alike and would be good for each other. In the end, she makes major step when she kises him more passionately than she ever kissed Will because she wanted to kiss him. Deception aside, she wanted that kiss and that right there shows that she isn`t a type who would patiently wait in seclusion for her heart-less hubby to come back after 10 years. She was capable of wanting another man and being intimate with him (cause kiss is a degree of intimacy). That`s definitely moving on.

Now, at the same time, Will moves on too in that his father becomes his priority. Which makes sense because he was fatherless for so long and obviously needed a father more than he needed a wife. He definitely wasn`t ready to be married and that could stem from having no strong male figure in his life to have man-to-man talks with. IMO, natural progression for both characters would be that they got over childhood fantasy, realized that they aren`t for each other so Will finally has a chance to get to know his father (which is, ironically, what he got in the end) while Elisabeth and Jack get together.

Look, I`m no fan of Willabeth because it`s utterly forced for all reasons that I went in depth in several posts. If you build a story about a repressed rich English girl who wants to break away from repressed English society and especially from a marriage to a repressed English officer, and who sees pirates as incarnations of freedom she strives for, than you don`t pair her with a non-pirate who does not stand for any idea of living or POV. Non-pirate is superflous. It`s a pirate vs an officer because they represent two opposite POVs or lifestyles if you please that the heroine is torn between. So the story either ends with the girl falling in love with a pirate and finding happiness in his arms (which I call Hollywood version) or the officer proves he`s more piraty than she tought so she falls in love with him and finds happiness in his arms (which I call Bollywood version). But this "he`s a pirate but didn`t do any pirating but he is definitely a pirate because he had a pirate medallion but he works as a balcksmith but he is a pirate cause his father is but he never did any pirating" pirate... roll eyes (sarcastic)



He fulfilled her major fantasy to be the ultimate pirate because this is his way of saying that he loved her. And he agreed that fighting was the only option but knew that motivational speechifying that works for Sons of Scotland doesn`t do jacks*** for pirates so he had to present the idea in his own way. I`m 100% sure he knew about Pirate King clause and just duped Barbossa into presenting the opportunity himself. So he gives her ultimate fulfillment of her dreams to be the ultimate pirate and she throws it away for the guy who isn`t even there for her.




I suppose that Pirate King is more decorative title except when it comes to declaration of war and parlay. But otherwise, Breathren Court votes on eevrything. Maybe PK presides or something but it gotta be mostly decorative. However, that`s not the point but what you have just said - she completely abandons the life she always wanted, now that she has pirate world`s respect and admiration, (I must put this in capital letters)TO WAIT FOR WILL! Not live with Will because they don`t need anyone else so wrapped they are in their own world of love but WAIT FOR WILL! FOR A DECADE! It`s just mind-boggling stupidity how she made that 180 degree turn in a matter of minutes. One moment, she was celebrating the victory, another moment, she was saying farewell and left to live on some island or whatever that place is. OK, it gotta be secluded cause she is on Most Wanted list now but c`mon, you have better protection on BP! Totally stupid. No sex, no career, no ambition, no friends, just single mom raising a son in the shadow of a FREAKIN SEVERED HEART! I don`t want to think what that did to this kid`s metal health.

That said, son as a plot device is totally out of the left field cause she never longed to have kids or be a mom. She wanted hot sex and adventurous life on a pirate ship, not exactly a place for raising kiddies. So giving her a son as some sort of a reward is ridiculous nonsense that has nothing to do with the character.



Quoted for life. Not that they are married. I mean, does that look like marriage? They are exactly where they were 10 years ago - pining for each other from afar. Which just proves my point that they never grew up. Immature romance from start to finish, especially the finish.



Elisabeth should have been on her own. if they didn`t want to piss off Bloom fans, they could have had an open ending in which Will sets her free from waiting for him but doesn`t pull a 100% Norrington (as in leaves her in another man`s care, endorses her choice). So don`t wait for me but it`s up to audience to interpret what her life would be like.

Although pulling a 100% Norrington would be a nice full circle for Will`s character plus openly leaving her in Jack`s care could still be interpreted differently (friends, lovers, depending on what shipper you are) if there is no sunset kiss between them.

But I never understood why they thought making Will a CotFD was a good idea. They tried to force paralels with Jones that didn`t work because Jones`s love was unrequited. So Will doesn`t fit the bill. The point is to have a counterpart who can overcome the grudge and carry out his duty without emo s*** like heart-removal and gang-pressing souls into the service in order to take the rage on someone handy. So it should`ve been either Jack or Norrington since she chose Will. Which is why Will makes no sense at all.

ToddianGirl
Do you think that Will and Elizabeth's marriage is legit? I mean are they really married or not? I really don't think they are married in anyway that really counts. What kind of marriage is it? Their son only see's his father ONCE very 10 years(Same for Lizzy husband wise) I agree she's all alone with this damn heart that she's lugging around it's like a ball and chain that's forever tied to her. Where the hell does she keep it? What does she say if someone comes over her house and asks "Hey what's in that chest?" Elizabeth: Oh Just my husband heart! LMAO!

Sparrabella
Originally posted by ToddianGirl
Do you think that Will and Elizabeth's marriage is legit? I mean are they really married or not? I really don't think they are married in anyway that really counts. What kind of marriage is it? Their son only see's his father ONCE very 10 years(Same for Lizzy husband wise) I agree she's all alone with this damn heart that she's lugging around it's like a ball and chain that's forever tied to her. Where the hell does she keep it? What does she say if someone comes over her house and asks "Hey what's in that chest?" Elizabeth: Oh Just my husband heart! LMAO!

laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

That`s exactly what happens when someone comes over. But, oops, nobody comes over cause Liz could be tempted to behave like a healthy woman age 20-30.

Even if Pope himself married them, that isn`t a legit marriage because they do not perform marital duties, do not live together, he does not support her and their son,etc. She is single and can call herself married woman as much as she wants but she is single. So, technically, seeing other man wouldn`t be considered adultery because that marriage is a farse.

Now, the movies established that Will sets foot on shore every ten years. They beat us over the head with one day ashore, ten years at the sea and the main music theme is named One Day. So One Day every 10 years it is. However, fangirls went ballistic so T&T issued some half-arsed statement on their old site that there was a scene where it is explained that if Elisabeth is faithful to Will, he will be free from service after 10 years and return to her. And Calypso would choose another man with the touch of destiny to be CotFD (not specified if it is a random person or character we know). BTW, no such scene is included in Deleted Scenes from 7 Disc POTC Trilogy BoxSet so go figure how much the director agrees with this crap.

But anyway, this clumsy cop-out doesn`t undermind the stupidity of waiting at all (a decade or decade x 10 is the same thing, she shouldn`t wait) but opens a can of worms so lets see how big can and how big worms:

a) Will`s heart is cut out. He cannot become a living soul without the heart unless it miraculously reappears in his body which would be far fetched. So he is to remain immortal since a living person cannot live without the heart. But only CotFD is immortal and when Will becomes free of service, and new CotFD takes position, he cannot be immortal. See the confusion? Their 10 years cop out doesn`t explain this plot hole. Quite the contrary, it creates it. So logical development would be either that he isn`t free but visits every 10 years, or that he drops dead once he sets the foot ashore and dies instantly free of FD since he seized to be the immortal captain.

b) We are beaten to the death with Stab the heart, become the CotFD, yet Elisabeth`s celibacy is suddenly going to lift that curse and put Calypso back in charge of choosing CotFD without a need for one to stab another captain`s heart. That doesn`t make sense in regards to movies mythology that states clearly that Jones created the curse and nobody ever mentioned anything about Calypso wanting to lift it. besides, she was free before Will "died" so she could have prevented heart-cutting if she thought it was unnecessary (which it was cause it was only Jones`s emo reaction to break up, not initial requirement for CotFD).

c) If Calypso chooses CotFD from now on, are they to cut their own hearts or not? And is true love`s celibacy the key for their freedom after 10 years or not? Never explained and certainly never even hinted in the movies.

d) So if Will is free thanks to his nun`s virtue roll eyes (sarcastic) why keep us in suspense who becomes next CotFD? Spill the beans to make the whole stupid pandering to fangirls more convincing. They`ll never find peace unless they see the replacement so lets have fun and theorize who candidates may be:

Jack Sparrow

Why it could work: Liz didn`t choose him so if you want a paralel with Jones, here`s a real one. He escaped from the Locker, so as far as touch of destiny goes, he has it in spades. He contempated the possibility to take over from Jones. He is the man of the sea unlike the blacksmith. Plus Scarlett and Giselle would always wait for him.

Why it wouldn`t work: Obviously, Tia has already assessed that her lover isn`t the right man for that tedious job for whatever reason (it`s a boring duty, Jack is a free spirit and being bound to the ship is not freedom)

Bootstrap Bill

Why it could work: He spent big part of his life under one or the other curse so that`s some touch of destiny, wouldn`t you agree? Plus he is a man of the sea and knows FD well.

Why it wouldn`t work: he doesn`t need to replace Will in order to set him free since Will`s freedom depends on Elisabeth`s sexual and emotional abstinency. Plus, the whole point of Will`s fight to free his father from FD would be rendered pointless (not that they didn`t render pointless many other stuff) if he remained bound to FD.

James Norrington

Why it would work: Unrequited love gives him the strongest paralel to Jones than other candidates have. He survived a hurricane and shipwreck and the writers said that Will`s ability to survive shipwrecks is touch of destiny. So if that`s how it manifests than Norrington has it too. Think of Will as Luke Skywalker and of Norrington as Pricess Leia. In every generation, two are born with a touch of destiny but only one actually fulfills it. And Will and Norrington are connected through Sword of Destiny. So some kid of destiny is really strong with this one. Plus he is also man of the sea and was an Admiral on FD where he died. P

Why it wouldn`t work: The Dutchman needs a living heart and Norrington is dead. He would have to escape from the dead first, like Barbossa, to qualify. Plus, he`s a warrior which puts his committment to ferrying souls without a chance to fight in question.

Hector Barbossa

Why it would work: once immortal man of the sea who escaped from the dead would know how to handle ethernity.

Why it wouldn`t work: immortality removes pleasures form one`s path and Barbossa is a hedonist. Calypso wouldn`t make a mistake of putting him on duty that he would run away from in a day (imagines Barbossa pouring water in his boots and runnig off).

Random unknown guy

Why it would work: doesn`t create new gaps in logic like appointmet of already known chaarcters.

Why it wouldn`t work: because 10 years cop out bulls*** doesn`t. stick out tongue

ToddianGirl
I agree 100% it had to be Will his destiny was to be the captain of the FD. I'm so glad it wasn't Jack, James or Barbarossa thank God for that. I remember being depressed over Jack and Elizabeth not being a couple but now I see that her and Will belong together cause they are so freaking depressing. Jack doesn't need her anymore like you said the min she married Will, Jack's want for her went out the window. I also see his "Keep Telling Yourself That Darling" line to her was "You made your bed now go lie in it." The more I'm understanding the more I really don't like Elizabeth as much as I did before she uses people for her own gain, also she never suffered any consequences of her actions. What do you make of her crying in Tia's shack after Jack died?(Yeah she killed him) Did she really feel bad or was it all bull? LMAO about Barbarossa pouring water in his boots and running! laughing

Sparrabella
Originally posted by ToddianGirl

I agree 100% it had to be Will his destiny was to be the captain of the FD. I'm so glad it wasn't Jack, James or Barbarossa thank God for that. I remember being depressed over Jack and Elizabeth not being a couple but now I see that her and Will belong together cause they are so freaking depressing.

They belong together only because they can`t be with anyone and that includes each other. Their "relationship" only works while they are separated which is most of the time in the movies. First it was social hierachy that kept them on the distance but they didn`t really try to bridge the gap in secret either. Than Beckett saved them from making the biggest mistake of their lives since time together obviously frustrated her while he was blissfully clueless that she is not happy. So they spend DMC apart for a long time during which she develops attraction to Jack. Then they spend AWE separated because of machinations too convulted to explain but most importantly, because they have nothing to talk about. Which is why they prefer to stay separated. Finally, they marry only to end up apart which is why their "marriage" will last those 10 years or 10 x forever. As long as they don`t have to talk to each other, do things together, live together, you know, anything that people with common interest do, they are good.



I think his love went out of the window the moment she chained him to the mast. When Jack tricks you, he always leaves you enough leverige and instructions how to get out of the stricky stituation. When he "betrayed" Will several times, he always gave him some substantial leverige to survive and come out victorious. However, when Elisabeth screws you over, it`s final. Done. No escape. Same goes for Norrington. He screws you over, you are toast but on epic level (you + hundereds + thousands of others). It was a lucky coincidence that Tia could fetch Jack from the Locker but he still had to spend some time there which messed up with his mind.



Absolutely. Their goodbye was final and OST is going to be canon so obviously he didn`t think of her again, had no interest to see how she is doing,etc. Now, I totally hate those Sparrabeth fanfics where he is such a fathful doting boyfriend because it is out of character. But we know that he cares for his many loves more or less and remaines in pretty good relationship with all of them more or less again (Scarlett&Giselle, Ana Maria, Tia, Angelica in OST). Yet Elisabeth is the only one who he won`t visit even thought Billy Turner would certainly profit from having a real man around. The goodbye was a farewell. They never saw each other again and since she was bound to one place in order to wait for Will and raise Billy, it was his call to navigate his ship/dinghy/whatever to her destination. Not happening.



I don`t know about that. Celibacy is a pretty damn big consequence to me. Having no friends, no relatives while raising a son alone is a pretty big consequence. She managed to drive away everyone who ever cared for her because she only started to care when she lost them. She didn`t even think of her father since her escape until she saw him dead in that boat. That`s terrible. Will cares for his father who absolutely deserves no love or sympathy since he abandoned his young son, but Elisabeth didn`t even think of her awesome dad. She started to care for Norrington at the moment of his impending death. She started to care for Jack when he was gone. If she cared beforehand, she wouldn`t have chained him to the mast so that he cannot die with dignity or make a choice to stay behind. Just all around terrible, insensitive selfish little girl who never grew up.



She lost him so naturally she wanted him back. Just a type of person who doesn`t appreciate what she`s got. Just take a look at her behavior after he was rescued. Like nothing ever happened. No apology, nothing.
IMO, her crying was because she knew nobody would have approved of her cowardly deed so she had to keep it to herself and face the fact she didn`t have as high moral center as she fancied she did. Remember when Jack told her they were so alike and she quoted moral center as one of reasons they are not. IMO, Jack fell out of love because her cowardly trickery proved they indeed weren`t all that alike. He has moral center, she doesn`t. I mean, c`mon, he proved he was a good man and did the honorable thing and she executed him for it. He would never had done that to anyone. So in the end, she was crying because she screwed up her chances with him. Even when she didn`t know he could be fetched, she knew he would be done with her because she crossed the line. He sacks a port and commandeers a Navy ship without firing a single bullet, she tricks him into death trap after he saved her life. No love lost on his part.

siriuswriter
i think that if the movies stuck to just cotbp, we all would be fine. both will and elizabeth begin at the same place, cinematically speaking. She's had a pleasant but not remarkable life, he's glad to be alive and working on something with which he has a talent. socially, they're both fresh out off the boat will, because... oh yes! he's orphaned, son of a "seaman," and just has a bit of speciality about him because the governor helped to rescue him and has kept tabs on him since. They're both very unglamorous characters, especially inserted into this time period.

That gives both characters a bit of "free-er-ness." In Elizabeth, it's a bad trait because it means she's way spoiled. In Will, it's a good thing because in England he would've been stomped on to stay down.

Then the glamorous, exotic pirate Captain Jack Sparrow arrives, meets the two dull characters in shocking ways , and, of course, outsmarting the law and descending on Will like a bat out of Hell.

Jack spends time with both characters, and because off all the acting and whimsy we don't really see it, but he's playing matchmaker.

So yay, everything ends well, the good pirate proves himself, the bad military finds themselves looking like fools, Will and Liz are together and their first kiss is heralded by the escaping of the loony pirate. It's an Old Movie ending. They all lived happily ever after, including Norrington, who lets bygones be bygones as a well of well-being to all rises in his now noble chest.

Kiss in beautiful light, end.

But then they decided to make a sequel.

First off, because of what was planned as a one-shot movie, things are in canon that are incredibly inconvenient. For one thing, in the long run, Norry would never do what he did in COTBP, Elizabeth would have married William and probably have had a pleasant yet unremarkable life again.

Alas, the sequels gave us character traits that hadn't shown up in No. 1, where everything was simpler and could have a Disney ending.

And again, what can you do with a story that's had the Disney ending? This is why Disney has been frowned upon, unofficial sequels coming out, made from stories that we haven't seen Disneyfied since the forties and fifties. You're done making the original film, once you've decided to tie up all the strings and snip the edges clean.

So I like to watch Curse of the Black Pearl by itself, and think of it by itself. Because then I can believe that things will be right from now on, that Jack will be free and Will will love Liz and Liz will love Will, and that Norrington will now reign with a lighter hand and nobody will ever have to be killed any more.

And then that feeling was killed off once we see Lizzy cheating on Will with Jack and a little boy hang to death.

I like to think of myself as a "responsible fangirl." I love the first movie, and I always will. But I have to love it for itself, and watch the others for the funny and memorable parts.

Anyone identify with anything here?

Sparrabella
Great post, siriuswriter (fellow Sirius Black fan, I assume?)! A few thoughts:

Originally posted by siriuswriter
i think that if the movies stuck to just cotbp, we all would be fine.

That or making sequels only with Jack and leaving out everyone who was just an episode in his life - Will, Elisabeth, Norrington,etc. We have seen from the ending of COTBP and AWE as well as everything that passed in DMC and AWE that Will and Elisabeth would never become true friends and pirate buddies with Jack, even after Pirate King Mary Sue EXtraordinaire stunt. Their relationship was based on who needed whom first and foremost with some respect and affection mixed in but they would never form a bond like Gibbs and Jack. Now, I do think that of all those characters Norrington actually had potential to go from enemy to reluctant ally to real friend because he and Jack are very much alike. Jack is a rogue outside and gentleman inside, while Norrington is a gentleman outside and rogue inside. Each man had that inner side bursting to come out and we`ve seen what happens when it comes forth and it`s a dynamo.



Actually, Norrington and Elisabeth had that going much better - from English repression to letting their hair loose (literally and figuratively) to achieving the highest level of their own profession (Pirate King and the Admiral) to defying old prejudice and doing what they think is right as opposed to what they are told is right to making ultimate sacrifice (he dies so that she can live and by that put the stop to Beckett`s tyrany, she forsakes life of adventure and real relationship to wait for Will).



I wouldn`t agree. My biggest beef with Elisabeth is that her yarn for freedom makes no sense because her father gives her everything except what he isn`t aware of since she didn`t talk - Will. Also, for a lady of her station, she was quite knowledgable about pirates, naval strategy, law,etc which means that she had a clear access (books, father, Norrington) to stuff that interested her. Therefore, when her father tried to pair her with Norrington it was because he thought love was mutual and he had strong foundation to believe it since she showed keen interest in Norrington`s job. And unlike Will and Elisabeth whose romance is founded on dreams, these two had a real foundation for a relationship - except that they starred in a fairytale where that doesn`t mean squat. big grin Also, she lived abroad and how "boring" is to be courted by a badass pirate hunter? In couple of years, he`d get a tour of rotation somewhere else and she would live in another exotic and dangerous place. Again, neither unremarkable life nor a perspective of an unremarkable life.




Yet unable to move himself upwards with the said talent. He doesn`t advertise it which is partly modesty and partly lack of any ambition save to be with Elisabeth, although climb up the social ladder thanks to talent would do the trick. He`s a master swords-maker and sword-master and PR was a Naval port so his business would be booming. However, because we are in a fairytale, remember, he dreams of winning her heart by pure chivalry which is why she spends 8 years waiting for his pirateness to reveal itself. He`s not making chances (as in joining pirates like Jakc or Navy like Norrington for some darring-do`s or heroics) but is waiting for one to fall into his lap. Which it finally does.



Will believed he was a son of a respectable merchant which means that he and his mother had a pretty good standing and considering that Will is educated, doesn`t speak with "yer be warned" accent, he was schooled which wasn`t a norm in those times. It was pirate attack that robbed him of everything and Swann`s unwillingness to do more for him. I mean, it isn`t that he had to but it would have been a nice gesture.



Will`s free-er-ness is different from Elisabeth`s because it is entirely Elisabeth-focused. Nothing for him, everything for her. OTOH, hers was always about her first and Will was just a part of it. "If I`m set free, I can have Will and anything else" rather than "All I want is freedom to worship my love interest". Hence why Will doesn`t try to impress socially (Look, I make best swords in the world!) but in the way of Camelot and other romanic Mediaval songs and stories (I`d die for her - which is, ironically, what Norrington does without making big exclamations)



He is playing a matchmaker but is also setting all characters free from their old repressions and prejudices. Which works for everyone except Elisabeth who is supposed to be set free by Will and she just isn`t. Jack opens her mind about freedom and Norrington sets her free to be happy with Will (while endorsing Will`s talent to give him social boost he wasn`t capable to earn for himself). Will just collects the prize which isn`t unearned (he did his chivalry) but on psychological level, he didn`t do squat.



Military was never bad in COTBP. They were good guys but the movie criticized discriminating law that put all pirates in the same category regarless of actual crime and overzealousness which is what Norrington overcomes in the end. But they were good guys who fought valiantly at Isla De Muerta. Anatgonists sure but not villains.



That was a perfect fairytale ending and should have been let alone.



Which gave us Sparrabeth and Scruffington so I will always love DMC more even thought COTBP is a better movie. big grin



I agree that Will and ELisabeth were to have pleasent and unremarkable life (he returned to his blacksmith shop) but I disagree about Norrington. We knew from COTBP that he had a temper and tendecy towards non-PC decisions (fire on their own ship) and what happened at the end of COTBP was a huge public humilation for him. Dumped by his fiance, prisoner escaped (though he did think he shouldn`t have been hanged) all in front of the whole city. So he had to do a lot of counts to 10 to save his face and there was this moment where you cna see his mind is so overwhelmed with thoughts he cannot speak so Swann jumps in to give him some guidance. Therefore, you have a man with all kinds of strong emotions fighting inside while the town is watching and he takes control of himself...there. What happened when he was alone in his gym (I expect punching bag got blown to pieces) is another matter but the shock he survived that day is simply impossible to overcome easily. So I can buy sailing through hurricane just fine (we know he didn`t fear death, and after what happened he may have had a secret death wish) and drowning his sorrow in a bottle and all sorts of things. of all POTC characters, he is the closest to a real person.



Well, those who deserve to be killed should be killed. Murder and rapist should get hanged.



This is a whole new chapter for discussion which I will come back to after work.

Sparrabella
Lizzie "cheating" on Will was a part of the writer`s idea that she was a modern day girl stuck in 18th century. So her flirting and finally passionate kiss with Jack was a modren day exploration of sexuality (less puritan, less monogamy-is-everything). Then they made a 180 degree turn in the thrid movie where modern day girl stuck in 18th century suddenly becomes Penelope from Homer`s Odyssey - the famous faithful wife who with her son was fending off suitors in order to stay true to her husband lost at the sea for 20 years. It was as if they didn`t know what message they wanted to get across so between over-simplified fiction feminism (weekend warriorship, Alpha female) and Disney family values ( true love is always first love, chaste heroine) , they messed up completely. COTBP was a classic fairytale, sequels tried to be dark but had no guts to go all the way. Hence the only established rule of coming back from dead is that a character must be a big gun. Only big characters defy death in different ways while small characters stay dead. That`s chickening out.

As for hanging the little boy, this ties with what I said about dark turn but no balls to pull no punches. They opened the movie with something as disturbing and anti-Disney as that, only to continue with tons of slapstick, puritan family values (that discrimninates woman`s choice - lets not forget that Will asked her to wait which limited her choice to hurting his feeling or pleasing him by obeying) and pretty damn atrocious way of presenting death as something that easy breezy fixable (Jack`s escape, Will`s immortality - nobody is coping with the loss because there isn`t any that lasts for more than few days or minutes). OK, Harry Potter this ain`t but considering that they wanted this to have some deeper message (hence hanged child, freedom battle cry,etc), it just descended into shallowness.

siriuswriter
Wow, long response. BUT Sparrabella, I was talking about the first movie by itself - so you can't bring the sequels into it. Pretend as if they don't exist, and we don't get as deep in the characters.

What I meant about Norrington easing up was that he decided against immediate chase of a convict, which, just from cotbp, is certainly against the norm and MOST certainly disneyfied - this is the tough crew from "Atlantis" deciding not to listen to their crazy boss anymore but to help Milo keep Kita down in Atlantis where she belongs.

The whole thing can be summed up in one sentence, to me. Forgetting all other aftermath, COTBP was a live action Disney Movie with the proper clear Disney movie motives.

It's when the sequels start that things begin to veer from "That's Disney!"

And that's what I liked about it. CotBP was a fantasy that took you away from it all without becoming too emotionally invested in the characters. It's a check-your-brain-at-the-door kind of film.

Oh, and I wanted to address your opinion about Will and Liz starting at the same place cinematically, I don't think I said what I was thinking well enough. Both of the have stories that are just waiting for a catalyst - For Liz, I believe it's when Norrington asks for her hand in marriage - she now has discovered that, while Daddy let her do whatever she liked, her life might not always be that way. For Will, it's the meeting and subsequent swordfight with Jack, which spikes his worries for Liz and he becomes passionate about the whole thing which gives us a splendid fight scene. Will is now "ready" to call Liz by her first name, which woiuld be the first of many steps to achieve his dream.

So when I say I look at cotbp by itself, I mean by itself. Forget the sequels and all of T n' T's tidbits of sharing. Because bringing in the sequels very obviously "corrupt," the Disney protestant value of "If you work hard for it, you'll achieve it." That Disney mainstay, coming from Walt himself, is the basis of all/most Disney movies, a pattern which is, again, changed after DMC and AWE show up.

Once you watch those too, you come back to number one and, I think, sometimes try to see things that aren't there so you can extrapolate those theories and make them work into the theories of the sequels.

I prefer my disney fantasy pure and unadulterated, thank you very much. big grin

Sparrabella
Originally posted by siriuswriter
Wow, long response. BUT Sparrabella, I was talking about the first movie by itself - so you can't bring the sequels into it. Pretend as if they don't exist, and we don't get as deep in the characters.

But they are pretty deep thanks to the sequels. I`d say that the only thing sequels did wrong is those awful character closures in AWE but otherwise they did quite well with some characterisations. I always prefer something to think about to having nothing.



It`s Disneyfied but it is something that DMC corrects when Beckett comes over with the arrest warrant for Will, Elisbarth and Norrington because all 3 were involved in letting Jack escape. Now this is where you contradict yourself a bit - you don`t like sequels and you don`t like Disneyfication, but DMC turns it on its head and instead of shiny happy utterly unrealistic living happily ever after ending, that is pure Disney, everything goes south.

Which actually gives COTBP`s ending more sense. Governor and Norrington were highest officials (one government, another military) in the Caribbean or at least Port Royal area. So who would actually arrest them for personal reasons (couhgElisabeth-siding-with-Jackcough) - induced break of the law? Nobody from their realm of power but you bet that someone obviously alerted London (coughGrovescough) and here comes Prince on the White Horse Lord Beckett to put the law in lawlessness.



Not quite. You forget that unlike typical Disney heroine who is all heart of gold and honesty, Elisabeth lies to Norrington and then humilitates him in public and the man didn`t deserve it. That`s as far from proper clear Disney movie motive as it gets. Her happiness was built on a good man`s misery and that fact that he is a real man who took it like a real man. If you wanted complete Disney values ending, than Norrington`s Eowyn would wake up in the House of Healing to meet female Faramir who would convince him that his love for Elisabeth was only infatuation and that he actually loves Faramiria. And this is from a huge fan of LOTR books who always hated that cop out but, damn, if there was ever a character who deserved Eowyn/Faramir ending, it`s Norrington in the whole series as well as COTBP alone.



How`s that bad? You just criticized some typical Disney s*** forgive my language. IMO, veering from The Disney wasn`t a problem as much as "not veering from enough" was. They tried to please too many different quadrants which created a mess with mixed messages and nonsense.



That`s your POV but you will find many fans who were intensely emotionally involved and there`s no denying that the movie had some deeper messages. The whole " a pirate and a good man" vs "pirate brand and flag, doesn`t matter what actual crime, hang him" is pretty good thinking stuff as was some character`s questionable decisions/behavior.



Oh, I agree about the catalyst thing. For Elisabeth, time was running out. I guess that despite her "modern" "you robbed me of my wedding night" "I`m so ready to be married" sexual curiosity, she perceived marriage as game over as far as her hopes to ever be with Will go (as in she wouldn`t dare to cheat but most importantly, Will wouldn`t mess up with a married woman aka Elisabeth and Will are Scarlett O`Hara and Ashley Wilks of POTC). For Will, Jack`s arrival was his long desired chance to become a Prince in the Shiny Armour. Which is what he really was, PitSA not a pirate. Pirate and PitSA may be interchangable in Elisabeth`s mind but as far as Disney Princes go, Will is up there with Prince Philip of Sleeping Beauty, another character prompted to heroism by his damsel`s distress.



Eh, the protestant value you just described was corrupt in COTBP to a degree. Norrington worked harder than Will to deserve Elisabeth, hence why he didn`t propose before his promotion but after, when he was on equal footing with her father, so that nobody could say he was a social climber or whatever. Fans always tend to see Will`s rush jump into saving Elisabeth as a proof of "love" while forgetting that Norrington, unlike Will, was responsible for the whole town`s well-being and couldn`t leave them in a mess in order to follow his selfish impulse. He worked on her rescue as well as on the rescue of the citizens and marines that were hit hard by Barbossa attack. So you have two heroes except that one isn`t perceived as such because his job is to risk his life on daily basis so nobody thinks of it as heroism, while the other doesn`t have to risk his life like a professional soldier so he is hailed a hero for taking such intitiative. Finally, Norrington forsakes his happiness of having Elisabeth as his wife so that she can be happy with who her heart chose, which is a tremendous personal sacrifice on his part,and letting Jack go, pressing no charges against Will (he also gave his sword-forging skills a compliment for all to hear) are career-risking decisions. So as far as that value goes, he`s worked super-hard but achieved nothing (in what his heart desired the most).




And I maintain that COTBP wasn`t pure Disney to begin with but they did achieve a good balance of Disney and subversive elements. After all, Jack is a major subversive, non-Disney element of the movie which is why it became so popular. He is now one of Disney`s most recognizable icons and wrongly thought of as Pure Disney, but he really was and still is anti-Disney. I mean, a perpetually drunk womanizing hero? Deffinitely not Disney. wink

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