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supreme kai said kid buus the strongest of all buus so he rapes

Kid Buu is among the weakest, and is possibly only above Fat Buu. The most factual sources (such as the manga and original JP recorded anime) state Kid Buu as simply being the most violent form because he's a mindless, unstable killing machine. All sources regarding Kid Buu as being anywhere close to even base form Super Buu are localization errors in the anime. All of Buu's strongest forms are when he was in his Super Buu form(s).

I want to believe that Kid Buu is the strongest but there really is nothing to indicate it and logic says he isn't...

So I suppose this thread goes to Buuhan. With not too much difficulty.

Originally posted by USSJ
supreme kai said kid buus the strongest of all buus so he rapes
Actually he said he was the most dangerous of all buus. Which is true because he was simply a lot more proactive in wanting to destroy things.

Originally posted by USSJ
supreme kai said kid buus the strongest of all buus so he rapes

Nahh. Buuhan would dominate a dozen Kid Buus.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nahh. Buuhan would dominate a dozen Kid Buus.


Likely adding their power to his own.

Buuhan is stronger. A lot stronger.

Originally posted by Bentley
Likely adding their power to his own.

And becoming strong enough to pwn Vegito awesome

then why would the supreme kai's insist they use the potara earrings if they thought they had a chance to beat kid buu with out it, they also stated that normal fusion would not be enough even though super saiyan gogeta treated super janemba like nothing. I mean not only the supreme kai's but also goku and vegeta have stated that since transforming into kid buu he is more powerful than ever, kibitoshin explained that after kid buu absorbed the kai's becoming super buu and fat buu he was weakened. If your referring to the fact super saiyan 3 goku put up such a good fight then I understand your confusion but we really don't see super saiyan 3 goku really cut loose until he fights kid buu and he still is goku where talking about here the whole dragon ball, dragon ball z and dragon ball gt's greatest hero, when he was fighting fat buu he was just stalling for time so trunks could get the dragon radar, he even said he could have destroyed fat buu if he wanted but he wanted gohan, goten and trunks to do it because goku understood that he won't be around forever so the planet needs them to be able to protect it. And as for his fight against super gotenks buu he put up a good fight against him but he was more focused on stalling him so gohan could get the earring. Besides didn't you notice that in the first part of the fight super saiyan 2 goku was putting up a good fight as well it is just that kid buu wasn't taking him seriously, and super saiyan 3 was no different, super saiyan 3 goku was not getting anywhere throughout the whole fight kid buu never tired or slowed down and took no damage, he regenerated from ever blast with ease, even after a blast strong enough to destroy earth far over 10 times over he regenerated in mere minutes. Even fat buu couldn't land a single punch and spent most of the fight being pummeled and beaten to a pulp, sure some of fat buu's attacks landed but he got no closer than goku.

Imo, being described as the "most dangerous" version of Buu doesn't necessarily equate to him being the "most powerful" version. However, Vegeta did say that Kid Buu was "stronger than he imagined" -- but that could simply mean he -initially- didn't think such a tiny being could possess so much power (ie. Vegeta may have underestimated Kid Buu at first.) /shrug

Other side of the coin, Goku said that if he had enough time to reach full power as a SSJ3, he'd be able to destroy Kid Buu "in an instant". That's important because after Buu absorbed Gohan, Goku was desperately looking for someone to fuse with, because he knew he was no match for Buuhan -- hell, Goku was so desperate that he even considered fusing with Mr. Satan. :-/

So yeah, going with Buuhan here.

Buuhan, easily.

Buuhan is the most power non-Vegito character to appear in DBZ, by far.

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, being described as the "most dangerous" version of Buu doesn't necessarily equate to him being the "most powerful" version. However, Vegeta did say that Kid Buu was "stronger than he imagined" -- but that could simply mean he -initially- didn't think such a tiny being could possess so much power (ie. Vegeta may have underestimated Kid Buu at first.) /shrug

Other side of the coin, Goku said that if he had enough time to reach full power as a SSJ3, he'd be able to destroy Kid Buu "in an instant". That's important because after Buu absorbed Gohan, Goku was desperately looking for someone to fuse with, because he knew he was no match for Buuhan -- hell, Goku was so desperate that he even considered fusing with Mr. Satan. :-/

So yeah, going with Buuhan here.

he didn't say in an instant he said that at full power he MIGHT be able to, read my last message would you, because it doesn't sound like you did, didn't you notice that kid buu was just playing around with goku and that goku never managed to get anywhere against kid buu, it isn't because he's weaker it is because he just plays around with him, I mean didn't you notice that super saiyan 2 goku was doing just as well against kid buu as super saiyan 3, kid buu never took goku seriously. Kid buu is more powerful than buuhan, he just spends an incredible amount of time playing around with his opponents, you know not taking them seriously.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
he didn't say in an instant he said that at full power he MIGHT be able to, Is that so..?

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9366/unledh.th.jpg

Like I said above, had Goku been able to reach full power as a SSJ3, he -would- have been able to defeat Kid Buu (as stated by both Vegeta and himself). However, the same cannot be said about Buuhan -- as Goku was desperately looking for someone else to fuse with because he knew he was no match.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
read my last message would you, because it doesn't sound like you did, didn't you notice that kid buu was just playing around with goku and that goku never managed to get anywhere against kid buu, it isn't because he's weaker it is because he just plays around with him, I mean didn't you notice that super saiyan 2 goku was doing just as well against kid buu as super saiyan 3, kid buu never took goku seriously. Kid buu is more powerful than buuhan, he just spends an incredible amount of time playing around with his opponents, you know not taking them seriously. Once again, Goku was -never- able to reach his full power as a SSJ3. If he would have been able to do so, defeating Kid Buu would have been easily accomplished.

Just a FYI... the Super Saiyan 3 Goku that fought kid buu was much powerful than the Super Saiyan 3 Goku that fought fat Buu and Super Buu. Let's not forget the massive beatdown he received from Superbuu that took a twink on his power level when he healed.

That could pretty much be the reason he was able to match kid buu. Then, we really never seen Goku actually use the full extent of his Super Saiyan 3 power and him wanting to fuse with Hercule seem more along the lines of "plot" than anything else.

Originally posted by carver9
Just a FYI... the Super Saiyan 3 Goku that fought kid buu was much powerful than the Super Saiyan 3 Goku that fought fat Buu and Super Buu. Let's not forget the massive beatdown he received from Superbuu that took a twink on his power level when he healed.
Yeah, but his body was said to still be more thorough and could apparently hold his SSJ3 form longer when he was dead, than he was when alive after the Elder Kai gave him the rest of his life force.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Yeah, but his body was said to still be more thorough and could apparently hold his SSJ3 form longer when he was dead, than he was when alive after the Elder Kai gave him the rest of his life force.

Even though his dead body was able to hold on to the power more vs him being alive doesn't change or take away from his power level. The only difference that made was him quickly reverting back to his other stages (Super Saiyan 2, etc)

He still had a power increase if we go by how Saiyans body works.

Like I said before, we really never got the chance to see Goku unleash as a Super Saiyan 3 until he fought Kid Buu, so using him is irrelevant. I also believe that all of the "Goku trying to find someone to merge with" was a plot just to introduce Vegeto. I don't think it had nothing to do with Gokus power level.

Even if you don't want to use SS3 Goku as a measuring stick, it still does not change the fact that Buu gets stronger (usually) whenever he absorbs and integrates someone.
Kid Buu had no one absorbed. While Buuhan had Goten, Trunks and more importantly, Gohan at his most powerful, absorbed.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Even if you don't want to use SS3 Goku as a measuring stick, it still does not change the fact that Buu gets stronger (usually) whenever he absorbs and integrates someone.
Kid Buu had no one absorbed. While Buuhan had Goten, Trunks and more importantly, Gohan at his most powerful, absorbed.

Naah, I think you got that kind of backwards. Supreme ki stated that the absorption process weakened him more than anything. Then you all have a bad habits of just going by showings vs statements so with that said, kid buu was shown on panel (during a story telling from Ki) destroying a Galaxy. Even though it took years due to his childish attitude of physically being dominate vs just completely ridding the Galaxy right away, it still happened. Then we have kid buu simply going planet to planet finishing them instantly without breaking a sweat. So with that said, using you alls type of debate involving DBZ characters, kid buu is more powerful.

My main point was... it was hinted that Kid Buu was more powerful and to back this up even further, it was stated that the transformation/absorptions weakened his powerlevel.

The notion that Goku was stronger vs. Kid Buu than he would have been against Buuhan is simply incorrect. Fact is, Goku had no battles in between his encounter with Buuhan and Kid Buu that would have made any significant change in his PL.

Here's how the events went down: Goku transports to earth, fuses with Vegeta, has a brief scuffle with Buuhan (as Vegito) before allowing himself to be absorbed, journeys through Buu's body and frees those he'd absorbed (subsequently reverting Buuhan back to Kid Buu), then almost immediately begins his final battle with Kid Buu on the Kai World.

That being said, Goku's power as a SSJ3 wouldn't have changed much (if at all) between him arriving on earth/fusing into Vegito, and fighting Kid Buu. That's an important fact because just before Goku teleported to earth with the Potara earrings, the Elder Kai flat-out stated that he did NOT stand a chance against Buuhan:
http://img17.imageshack.us/i/411605.jpg/
(And Goku didn't disagree... Hence why they/he decided fusion was the best option.)


Yet when Kid Buu appeared, it was made clear that if Goku had enough time to reach full power as a SSJ3, he'd be able to easily defeat him:
http://img94.imageshack.us/i/unledh.jpg/


Buuhan >> SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu.

Originally posted by Galan007
The notion that Goku was stronger vs. Kid Buu than he would have been against Buuhan is simply incorrect. Fact is, Goku had no battles in between his encounter with Buuhan and Kid Buu that would have made any significant change in his PL.

Here's how the events went down: Goku transports to earth, fuses with Vegeta, has a brief scuffle with Buuhan (as Vegito) before allowing himself to be absorbed, journeys through Buu's body and frees those he'd absorbed (subsequently reverting Buuhan back to Kid Buu), then almost immediately begins his final battle with Kid Buu on the Kai World.

That being said, Goku's power as a SSJ3 wouldn't have changed much (if at all) between him arriving on earth/fusing into Vegito, and fighting Kid Buu. That's an important fact because just before Goku teleported to earth with the Potara earrings, the Elder Kai flat-out stated that he did NOT stand a chance against Buuhan:
http://img17.imageshack.us/i/411605.jpg/
(And Goku didn't disagree... Hence why they/he decided fusion was the best option.)


Yet when Kid Buu appeared, it was made clear that if Goku had enough time to reach full power as a SSJ3, he'd be able to easily defeat him:
http://img94.imageshack.us/i/unledh.jpg/


Buuhan >> SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu.

My mind is kind of clear on this so I'm asking... didn't Vegeta and Goku fight Buuhan before turning into Vegeta and got mud stomped and almost died?

Let's not use Supreme Ki as evidence... he didn't know anything at all about Goku power level. Hell, he thought didn't even know about Gohun Super Saiyan transformation. Goku not agreeing with it is a underestimation of his true power level. Goku tends to underestimate himself "a lot" but that still doesn't change the fact that Goku never really cut lose as a Super Saiyan 3 until he fought kid Buu.

Him not facing Buuhan imo was just a way of presenting Vegito.

Originally posted by carver9
My mind is kind of clear on this so I'm asking... didn't Vegeta and Goku fight Buuhan before turning into Vegeta and got mud stomped and almost died? Vegeta and Goku never fought Buuhan individually... Only as Vegito.

Originally posted by carver9
Let's not use Supreme Ki as evidence... he didn't know anything at all about Goku power level. So you really believe that Toriyama had Elder Kai (one of the most esteemed beings in the entire DBZ universe) speak in hyperbole regarding Goku's inability to defeat Buu? C'mon. srsly

If we can't believe a statement made by the Elder Kai, then we can't believe what -any- character has -ever- said throughout Dragonball as a whole.

Originally posted by carver9
Goku not agreeing with it is a underestimation of his true power level. Goku tends to underestimate himself "a lot" He didn't underestimate himself a while later when he stated that he could easily defeat Kid Buu at full power. srsly

Originally posted by carver9
but that still doesn't change the fact that Goku never really cut lose as a Super Saiyan 3 until he fought kid Buu. He -wasn't- going all out vs. Kid Buu. That's the point. Had he been able to reach full power, he could have beaten Kid Buu "in an instant".

Originally posted by carver9
Him not facing Buuhan imo was just a way of presenting Vegito. What happened on panel > your opinion.

And on panel, Elder Kai stated that Buuhan >> Goku. Goku acknowledged that statement as fact, and opted to use fusion instead (because he -knew- it was the only way to win.)

The only absorption that weakened Kid Buu was when he absorbed Daioshin, the head of the Kais, and that was due to his PURE GOODNESS, which counterbalanced Buu's PURE EVIL.

Carver is trying to say that fusing weakens Buu. Which is why Mystic Gohan went from raping Super Buu, to being toyed with by Buu with Gotenks absorbed. Yeah.

Also, I find it funny that Carver said in another thread on this very forum that hyperbole does not happen in anime... Then said the Elder Kai's words were hyberbole.

This shit is pathetic.

Originally posted by carver9
Naah, I think you got that kind of backwards. Supreme ki stated that the absorption process weakened him more than anything. Then you all have a bad habits of just going by showings vs statements so with that said, kid buu was shown on panel (during a story telling from Ki) destroying a Galaxy. Even though it took years due to his childish attitude of physically being dominate vs just completely ridding the Galaxy right away, it still happened. Then we have kid buu simply going planet to planet finishing them instantly without breaking a sweat. So with that said, using you alls type of debate involving DBZ characters, kid buu is more powerful.

My main point was... it was hinted that Kid Buu was more powerful and to back this up even further, it was stated that the transformation/absorptions weakened his powerlevel.

AFAIK, the only time he got 'weakened' when he absorbed someone was the time Buu absorbed the Grand Supreme Kai, and became Fat Buu.
Every other time Buu has absorbed someone, he's gotten far stronger. Evil Buu absorbing Fat Buu got us Super Buu. Super Buu with a SS3 fusion absorbed was able to punk a form of Gohan that earlier, was punking Super Buu.

Freeza too can 'go from planet to planet finishing them instantly without breaking a sweat'. Doesn't mean he's > Buuhan, or = Kid Buu. Destruction Feats only go so far when looking at a character's level of power.

I can't argue against any of what you all said. Good points. Also, Nemebro... what I said was true, there isn't any Hyperbole in Anime IMO. We have to take from it what we can since it isn't an ongoing series.

Why would Akira have someone say something if it wasn't true?

Originally posted by carver9
I can't argue against any of what you all said. Good points. Also, Nemebro... what I said was true, there isn't any Hyperbole in Anime IMO. We have to take from it what we can since it isn't an ongoing series.

Why would Akira have someone say something if it wasn't true?

Then how is what elder kai said hyperbole... you do know DBZ is an anime right?

Originally posted by yungz22
Then how is what elder kai said hyperbole... you do know DBZ is an anime right?

I already agreed to it.

In my experience, a lot of DBZ fans like to ignore facts in an effort cling to their own preconceived biases. This topic is a great example. People make up all sorts of excuses for why the spirit bomb couldn't have actually done what everyone says it does and gather people's energy (i.e. Gohan's energy, yet still be stated to not be enough to kill Kid Buu). Of course, we need not even look to the spirit bomb. What's really telling are statements made at the end of the arc:

Here's what really clinches the idea that Kid Buu is at very least the strongest unfused Buu: At the end, when the battle is over, Vegeta threatens to kill the Fat Buu. Goku tells him not to do it, but Vegeta insists that it has to be done, demanding to know who will stop Buu in case the Fat Buu ever gets angry again and recreates Kid Buu. What does Goku say? That'll Gotenks will take care of it? That Gohan will take care of it? No. He says that they'll train hard and be ready next time. If Kid Buu were somehow weaker than Super Buu, Vegeta would never have asked that question and Goku would never have answered in the fashion that he answered. Obviously, if Gotenks and Gohan are stronger, then there's no need to train since they can take care of it.

10 years later, Goku goes to the World Tournament. Why does he go? To fight Gohan? No. To fight Gotenks? No. He goes to fight the reincarnation of Kid Buu and even tells Hercule that there's a chance he might lose. This is a Goku with 10 years of additional training still thinking Kid Buu has what it takes to beat him (killing any suggestion that Goku could have won fair and square 10 years ago).

Take these two facts into account and Kid Buu is clearly stronger than Super Buu. Keep in mind that these facts are brought up AFTER the battle, thus using notes and observations made PRIOR to the battle is fallacious (i.e. Goku thinking he could kill Buu were he to charge up enough ki in SSJ3). It's pretty much the equivalent to using Vegeta's boasts and declarations prior to actually fighting Perfect Cell as proof that Cell Saga Vegeta > Perfect Cell. Hell, by that sort of logic, Frieza saga Vegeta > Final Form Frieza since Vegeta states he could win. All facts must be taken into account when determining who is stronger than who.

I'd also wager than he's stronger than Buuhan as well, but that boils down to him pushing back a universal spirit bomb and people seem to like making up facts as far as that's concerned.

Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
Kid Buu is among the weakest, and is possibly only above Fat Buu. The most factual sources (such as the manga and original JP recorded anime) state Kid Buu as simply being the most violent form because he's a mindless, unstable killing machine. All sources regarding Kid Buu as being anywhere close to even base form Super Buu are localization errors in the anime. All of Buu's strongest forms are when he was in his Super Buu form(s). This is pretty faulty logic by the way. On panel, Kid Buu has shown himself to be no more violent than any other Buu. He toyed with EVERYBODY, including Hercule. Localizaation errors my behind. Read the manga. Take ALL the facts into account, not just the ones you like. Look to Kid Buu pushing back a universal spirit bomb. Look to Goku saying they'd all need to train to be ready for Kid Buu in case he ever comes back, look to Goku having doubts over whether he could beat the reincarnation of Kid Buu 10 years later. Nope, it's pretty obvious that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu.

Although Super Boo has repeatedly proven himself as the strongest of the bunch, i also found it odd that the only difference between Super Boo and Fat Boo is the (seemingly) the level of influence that the Grand Kai has over him...

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In my experience, a lot of DBZ fans like to ignore facts in an effort cling to their own preconceived biases. This topic is a great example. People make up all sorts of excuses for why the spirit bomb couldn't have actually done what everyone says it does and gather people's energy (i.e. Gohan's energy, yet still be stated to not be enough to kill Kid Buu). Of course, we need not even look to the spirit bomb. What's really telling are statements made at the end of the arc:

Here's what really clinches the idea that Kid Buu is at very least the strongest unfused Buu: At the end, when the battle is over, Vegeta threatens to kill the Fat Buu. Goku tells him not to do it, but Vegeta insists that it has to be done, demanding to know who will stop Buu in case the Fat Buu ever gets angry again and recreates Kid Buu. What does Goku say? That'll Gotenks will take care of it? That Gohan will take care of it? No. He says that they'll train hard and be ready next time. If Kid Buu were somehow weaker than Super Buu, Vegeta would never have asked that question and Goku would never have answered in the fashion that he answered. Obviously, if Gotenks and Gohan are stronger, then there's no need to train since they can take care of it.

10 years later, Goku goes to the World Tournament. Why does he go? To fight Gohan? No. To fight Gotenks? No. He goes to fight the reincarnation of Kid Buu and even tells Hercule that there's a chance he might lose. This is a Goku with 10 years of additional training still thinking Kid Buu has what it takes to beat him (killing any suggestion that Goku could have won fair and square 10 years ago).

Take these two facts into account and Kid Buu is clearly stronger than Super Buu. Keep in mind that these facts are brought up AFTER the battle, thus using notes and observations made PRIOR to the battle is fallacious (i.e. Goku thinking he could kill Buu were he to charge up enough ki in SSJ3). It's pretty much the equivalent to using Vegeta's boasts and declarations prior to actually fighting Perfect Cell as proof that Cell Saga Vegeta > Perfect Cell. Hell, by that sort of logic, Frieza saga Vegeta > Final Form Frieza since Vegeta states he could win. All facts must be taken into account when determining who is stronger than who.

I'd also wager than he's stronger than Buuhan as well, but that boils down to him pushing back a universal spirit bomb and people seem to like making up facts as far as that's concerned.

You're taking all of these feats/statements out of context.

1. Vegeta was scared about Kid Buu returning because Kid Buu could appear while everyone was gone or something, and he would blow up Earth without a second's hesitation. And he could teleport to Namek and blow it up. Then they'd be phucked. But Goku wasn't worried, because he's so used to relying on the Dragon Balls. Even when it was just Frieza coming back, we saw how scary that was. Not because of how dangerous he is, but because of the POTENTIAL danger he represents. And Kid Buu is thousands of times stronger and more dangerous than Frieza.

2. Uub was not as powerful as Kid Buu. He was his reincarnation, that's all. Just because Naruto was Asura's reincarnation, doesn't make him as strong as Asura. That makes no sense. And Kid Buu was billions of years old. Uub had only been around for like 10 at the most. Who knows how strong Uub was, but Goku was in no way, shape or form taking it seriously against Uub. And that implies that his base form couldn't defeat his DBZ SSJ3 form. Even now in Super, base Goku would murderstomp his SSJ3 DBZ incarnation. So those "showings" are in no way definite.

3. Take EVERY OTHER SHOWING FROM THE ARC INTO ACCOUNT, and it's clear that Super Buu is MUCH stronger than Kid Buu. And I'm talking base Super Buu. The first showing that proves this is Super Gotenks vs Super Buu. Post ROSAT Super Gotenks was roughly equal to SSJ3 Goku, if not even more powerful than him. Gotenks only became able to fight on par with Super Buu after going SSJ3. Meaning that Super Buu was AT LEAST 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, because SSJ2 is a 2X boost to SSJ1 and SSJ3 is a 4X boost to SSJ2. Making SSJ3 an 8X boost to SSJ1. And Goku got no noticeable zenkai boosts during the entire Buu saga, because he was dead for the majority of it. Then, Buuhan would have been around 3X stronger than Super Buu, making him anywhere from 16-24X stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

This is supported throughout the entire arc. Not only did Vegeta say that Kid Buu was EXPLICITLY weaker than Super Buu, but Goku was confident enough to fight Kid Buu, whereas he was so desperate against Buuhan that he even considered fusing with Hercule or Dende. And Vegeta and Goku even stated that they wouldn't be able to beat base Super Buu even if they fought him together, which is why Vegeta ripped out fat Buu as well.

Buuhan >>> Super Buu >>> SSJ3 Goku >= Kid Buu.

4. Yeah, Kid Buu pushed back a universal spirit bomb. But that was only because Goku was so weakened that he couldn't control it. As soon as his ki was restored, he was able to overwhelm Buu's control of it just as a SSJ1. Are you saying that SSJ1 Goku was stronger than kid Buu, with his ki restored? Because that's the only way that makes sense, going by your logic.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're taking all of these feats/statements out of context.

1. Vegeta was scared about Kid Buu returning because Kid Buu could appear while everyone was gone or something, and he would blow up Earth without a second's hesitation. And he could teleport to Namek and blow it up. Then they'd be phucked. But Goku wasn't worried, because he's so used to relying on the Dragon Balls. Even when it was just Frieza coming back, we saw how scary that was. Not because of how dangerous he is, but because of the POTENTIAL danger he represents. And Kid Buu is thousands of times stronger and more dangerous than Frieza.There's nothing to indicate that this was the reason Vegeta was scared and plenty to indicate that it wasn't. By that logic, Goku's solution (train hard so they'll all be ready) is meaningless as Fat Buu can get angry any time, bring Kid Buu back and destroy the planet without a moment notice regardless of whether everyone trains. By saying they need to train, he's acknowledging that none of them are strong enough to deal with Kid Buu outright at that time.

Uub was not as powerful as Kid Buu as a result of not knowing how to use ki or any of his other powers (which is what Goku notes during the fight and why he goes to train him), but you're missing the point. Goku came into the fight with the impression that he was going to fight the equivalent to Kid Buu. With that mindset, he tells Hercule that he might not make it to the final round in order to "let Hercule win." He tells Vegeta that this unknown fighter is actually going to be a challenge despite being an earthling.

All of this is said despite Goku having trained the last 10 years, thus dispelling any notion that Goku could have won 10 years ago. That's what the Super Buu > Kid Buu arguments are premised upon. That Goku acknowledge being weaker than Super Buu, but thought he could beat Kid Buu, therefore making Super Buu stronger. Only Goku changes his mind about Kid Buu, realizing that he had greatly underestimated him.


We are taking every showing and statement in the arc into account. Everything you said is well and good (numbers aside), except the entire idea of Kid Buu being weaker clinches on Goku thinking he can win against Kid Buu. Then, for one reason or another, you seem to disregard every observation, showing and statement provided after the beginning of the fight. It's like concluding that Cell is weaker than Cell Saga Vegeta because Android 16 said that his sensors indicated that Vegeta was stronger. Obviously, the remainder of the arc proves otherwise. So too is the case with Kid Buu. Mid-fight, you've got Goku realizing that Kid Buu is dragging the fight out on purpose and is simply having fun (which ends up going as far as Kid Buu even toying with Hercule).

Also, lets refrain from using any numbers (i.e. SSJ3 = 8x boost to SSJ1). Not only are they not relevant, but it's just guesswork. Power levels and base multipliers stopped have any significance a long long time ago.

Except I have my copy of the Viz translation with me at hand. Where in the last manga volume does Vegeta "explicitly" say that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu? Goku and Vegeta comment on how puny he is. Vegeta also removed the fat buu from Super Buu with the impression that it would make him weaker. This is then contradicted as both Goku and Vegeta observe that Buu's ki actually rises as a result of removing Fat Buu.

Goku controlled the spirit bomb just fine against a 50% Frieza and he explicitly said he was out of ki then. In this case, Kid Buu was simply so strong that he needed his ki in order to finish the job.

The amount of ki, in the spirit bomb, however, is very relevant. After receiving ki from Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks and variety of other characters, it's explicitly noted that this ki isn't enough, hence why they end up needing Hercule to beg the entire planet for their ki. If we are to follow your logic, that amount of ki ought to have been sufficient (since it included Mystic Gohan's), Goku could have thrown it then and we could've cut straight to the scenes with the dragon restoring his ki back to normal levels.

Buuhan>Buutenks>Super Buu>Kid Buu>Fat Buu

What about Ultra Buu?

Kid Buu wins.

Originally posted by carver9
Kid Buu wins.

...

facepalm
Christ, carver.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Here's what really clinches the idea that Kid Buu is at very least the strongest unfused Buu: At the end, when the battle is over, Vegeta threatens to kill the Fat Buu. Goku tells him not to do it, but Vegeta insists that it has to be done, demanding to know who will stop Buu in case the Fat Buu ever gets angry again and recreates Kid Buu. What does Goku say? That'll Gotenks will take care of it? That Gohan will take care of it? No. He says that they'll train hard and be ready next time. If Kid Buu were somehow weaker than Super Buu, Vegeta would never have asked that question and Goku would never have answered in the fashion that he answered. Obviously, if Gotenks and Gohan are stronger, then there's no need to train since they can take care of it.

10 years later, Goku goes to the World Tournament. Why does he go? To fight Gohan? No. To fight Gotenks? No. He goes to fight the reincarnation of Kid Buu and even tells Hercule that there's a chance he might lose. This is a Goku with 10 years of additional training still thinking Kid Buu has what it takes to beat him (killing any suggestion that Goku could have won fair and square 10 years ago). Goku also told Piccolo that he couldn't have beaten Fat Boo as a SSJ3 after they fought. It was only much later in the arc that we learned he was lying/feigning weakness, in order to give the new generation a chance to step up as protectors of the earth. Truth be told, he could have destroyed Fat Boo easily. Point being: the comments you mentioned don't mean much in the way of legitimately trying to power-scale. Especially with the evidence we do have, which heavily implies that Super Boo > Pure Boo.

a.) After Boohan reverted back into Super Boo, Goku outright stated that Super Boo was still FAR more powerful than he or Vegeta--to the point that he thought it would be suicide for them to even TRY and fight him.

b.) Both Goku and Vegeta were confident that Goku would be able to obliterate Pure Boo rather easily IF he fully powered up as a SSJ3(which, unfortunately, he wasn't able to do at the time.) This still heavily alludes to Super Boo's superiority over Pure Boo.

c.) Even though he was operating at far less than full power as SSJ3, Goku was still able to have an extended battle with Pure Boo. This implies their powers were ~ equal initially... Which, again, heavily alludes to Super Boo's superiority over Pure Boo.

To me, those facts hold more weight than nonchalant comments made after the battle was over. After all, the above statements/feats were made after the 'new generation' had already been beaten(or killed), and Goku was the only thing standing between Boo and the destruction of the universe. IOW, he no longer had a reason to lie about his power.

That said, even if we assume that Oob went into the Tournament with the exact same power as Pure Boo, he was still human. As such, he lacked Boo's haxx magical damage soak/regen... Which is the primary factor that made Boo such a threat to Goku in the first place. Remove that, and Boo-era Goku should defeat him quite easily... If we allow an additional 10 years for Goku to train AND the potential for him to completely power-up as SSJ3, however, Goku would logically steamroll a fully-realized Oob without much effort.

In all likelihood, Goku was just hyped to fight a Boo-level opponent, because no other being with that type of power was still interested in fighting, and/or they just weren't powerful enough to challenge him...
-Goten/Trunks stopped training for the most part, thus the power of Gotenks would have plummeted as a result.
-Gohan stopped training all together, and became a scholar.
-Vegeta's power never remotely rivaled Goku's.

Oob was his best bet for a decent fight in that era, and that got him excited.

From reading this analysis, which correlates with "goku is always right" I would have to say I'm convinced kid buu is the strongest and his absorptions don't always translate with him getting stronger because they're not cell absorptions but like mixing shit with playdo. Or something similar. Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In my experience, a lot of DBZ fans like to ignore facts in an effort cling to their own preconceived biases. This topic is a great example. People make up all sorts of excuses for why the spirit bomb couldn't have actually done what everyone says it does and gather people's energy (i.e. Gohan's energy, yet still be stated to not be enough to kill Kid Buu). Of course, we need not even look to the spirit bomb. What's really telling are statements made at the end of the arc:

Here's what really clinches the idea that Kid Buu is at very least the strongest unfused Buu: At the end, when the battle is over, Vegeta threatens to kill the Fat Buu. Goku tells him not to do it, but Vegeta insists that it has to be done, demanding to know who will stop Buu in case the Fat Buu ever gets angry again and recreates Kid Buu. What does Goku say? That'll Gotenks will take care of it? That Gohan will take care of it? No. He says that they'll train hard and be ready next time. If Kid Buu were somehow weaker than Super Buu, Vegeta would never have asked that question and Goku would never have answered in the fashion that he answered. Obviously, if Gotenks and Gohan are stronger, then there's no need to train since they can take care of it.

10 years later, Goku goes to the World Tournament. Why does he go? To fight Gohan? No. To fight Gotenks? No. He goes to fight the reincarnation of Kid Buu and even tells Hercule that there's a chance he might lose. This is a Goku with 10 years of additional training still thinking Kid Buu has what it takes to beat him (killing any suggestion that Goku could have won fair and square 10 years ago).

Take these two facts into account and Kid Buu is clearly stronger than Super Buu. Keep in mind that these facts are brought up AFTER the battle, thus using notes and observations made PRIOR to the battle is fallacious (i.e. Goku thinking he could kill Buu were he to charge up enough ki in SSJ3). It's pretty much the equivalent to using Vegeta's boasts and declarations prior to actually fighting Perfect Cell as proof that Cell Saga Vegeta > Perfect Cell. Hell, by that sort of logic, Frieza saga Vegeta > Final Form Frieza since Vegeta states he could win. All facts must be taken into account when determining who is stronger than who.

I'd also wager than he's stronger than Buuhan as well, but that boils down to him pushing back a universal spirit bomb and people seem to like making up facts as far as that's concerned.

So Bootenks wasn't stronger than Super Boo..? Boohan wasn't stronger than Bootenks..?

If absorbing others just neutered/weakened Boo, why do you think he opted to absorb others in the first place?

Because buu was mental. His pure form was pure kill and had power level according to that.

Still, an argument can be made for Kid Boo > Base Super Boo, no? After all, isn't the only difference between them that Super Boo is carrying a burden?

If I'm missing something, I'd appreciate someone clarifying.

Dai Kaioshin didn't hinder Super Boo, so no, that wouldn't be a good argument.

What about this?

http://www.mangafreak.eu/read/dragon-ball/508/13

^ That 'Ultra Boo' scene still makes me scratch my head.

South Kaioshin was no longer incorporated within Boo, so I don't know why he would briefly revert into Ultra Boo when he degraded into Pure Boo..? Perhaps that was just Akira's half-assed/rushed way of corroborating KibitoKai's subsequent story that Pure Boo had killed and/or absorbed the previous Kaioshin eons ago..? /shrug

The entire Boo arc was a jumbled mess.

It's possible that Ultra Boo and Kid Boo could be more powerful than Super Boo. When Vegeta removes the Fat Boo he thinks it will mean Super Boo(the Boo he was talking to) will either become the Fat Boo or presumably the Dark Boo(or maybe it is a joke on weight since Vegeta can't really know about Dark Boo). Instead the Boo they were addressing, Super Boo at the time since all the kids and Piccolo were removed, loses the good kai that might be holding him back thus turning him into the pure evil Kid Boo. The Boo Goku and Vegeta had been talking to prior to the Kid Boo mode was not Buuhan but Super Boo.

So while this might indicate Kid Boo is stronger than Super Boo, it really shouldn't mean anything related to Buuhan. Buuhan had Gohan's strength(the strongest non-fused character as per Akira himself) and Piccolo's technique so he has overwhelming positives over Kid Boo. Goku was absolutely not going to fight Buuhan but felt pretty confident in fighting Kid Boo, which wouldn't make sense if the latter was stronger than the former.

Right, that's what I was thinking along the lines of.

Tbh, I still can't get over how thin buu absorbing fat buu makes super buu but when fat buu is removed, thin buu is kid buu.

Also, Toriyama has stated everytime that Gohan was the strongest z warrior that isn't fusion. This is after Goku fights Uub. The problem with Gohan is he can't release his energy, but he has always been the strongest.

He had a power level of 710 at 5 years old and nearly killed Frieza a year afterwards.

Buuhan will always be the strongest villain. Even vegito was barely a match.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
It's possible that Ultra Boo and Kid Boo could be more powerful than Super Boo. When Vegeta removes the Fat Boo he thinks it will mean Super Boo(the Boo he was talking to) will either become the Fat Boo or presumably the Dark Boo(or maybe it is a joke on weight since Vegeta can't really know about Dark Boo). Instead the Boo they were addressing, Super Boo at the time since all the kids and Piccolo were removed, loses the good kai that might be holding him back thus turning him into the pure evil Kid Boo. The Boo Goku and Vegeta had been talking to prior to the Kid Boo mode was not Buuhan but Super Boo.

So while this might indicate Kid Boo is stronger than Super Boo, it really shouldn't mean anything related to Buuhan. Buuhan had Gohan's strength(the strongest non-fused character as per Akira himself) and Piccolo's technique so he has overwhelming positives over Kid Boo. Goku was absolutely not going to fight Buuhan but felt pretty confident in fighting Kid Boo, which wouldn't make sense if the latter was stronger than the former. All that scene proves to me is that Ultra Boo > Super Boo(which no one has contested, afaik.) It doesn't allude to Pure Boo being > Super Boo at all, imo.

Where Super Boo and Pure Boo are concerned, it's like I said earlier(and like you mentioned in regard to Boohan):
After Boohan reverted back into Super Boo, Goku outright stated that Super Boo was still FAR more powerful than he or Vegeta--to the point that he thought it would be suicide to even TRY and fight him. This means the difference between them must have been massive, otherwise Goku would have undoubtedly wanted to 'test' himself against Super Boo.

Conversely, even at far less than full power as SSJ3, Goku was still able to have an extended battle with Pure Boo before SSJ3 burned him out. This implies their powers were ~ equal initially, which heavily alludes to Super Boo's superiority over Pure Boo. Moreover, both Goku and Vegeta were confident that Goku would be able to obliterate Pure Boo rather easily IF he fully powered up as a SSJ3(which, unfortunately, he wasn't able to do at the time.) This, again, heavily alludes to Super Boo's superiority over Pure Boo.

So yeah, I definitely think Super Boo > Pure Boo when we look at the big picture, but that's just my opinion. /shrug


Anyway, Boohan was undoubtedly the most powerful version of Boo to ever exist in the mythos... He even says as much:
http://i.imgur.com/DaNTNzu.jpg

The notion that Pure Boo was > is just wank at its finest, imo.

Huh? But isn't this literally the same basis you base pre-ROSAT SSJ1 Gotenks >/= SSJ3 Goku on?

Originally posted by Galan007


The notion that Pure Boo was > is just wank at its finest, imo. Not really. Overpowering the spirit bomb is a pretty compelling reason to believe Kid Buu > All. Not wank, just facts. Compared to when Gohan and company gave their ki away, the spirit bomb is well over two times larger when the entire each gives ki. Logically, doubling Mystic Gohan's ki would put him over Gohan Buu, so yeah . . .

Granted, I tend not to bother with this argument since it involves comparing the size of two different images drawn by the author (spirit bomb before and after the earthlings gave their ki). Still, the idea that it's simply 'wanking' to think Kid Buu is the strongest is silly. In my experience, the wanking comes into the picture when people start making up reasons to suggest that the genki dama doesn't in fact operate the way the manga says it does.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Not really. Overpowering the spirit bomb is a pretty compelling reason to believe Kid Buu > All. ...Then Goku goes SSJ1, and *poof*, Pure Boo is easily overpowered and destroyed by the Genki Dama. IOW, Pure Boo was obviously NOT superior to the Genki Dama. Not even close.


The rest of you response(can't quote it) is... Fallacious, to say the least. You're essentially saying that we should completely ignore the numerous pieces of evidence I mentioned, in favor of the few cherry-picked statements you referenced. Obviously I cannot agree with that type of logic.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Huh? But isn't this literally the same basis you base pre-ROSAT SSJ1 Gotenks >/= SSJ3 Goku on? I have never referenced that as fact... I've actually argued against it several times, in fact. The only thing I have used to definitively compare the difference between Gotenks and Goku, is Super Boo.

Originally posted by Galan007
...Then Goku goes SSJ1, and *poof*, Pure Boo is easily overpowered and destroyed by the Genki Dama.

IOW, Pure Boo was NOT superior to the Genki Dama. Not even close. Back in highschool, I max-benched somewhere around 200 pounds. I could only do one-rep at that. If someone slipped two 2.5 pound weights on each side, I simply couldn't rep it.

Same goes for Kid Buu. He was struggling with all of his might, but managed to overpower the genki dama. The genki dama was about close to his max. Goku adding the ki from SSJ killed it. If simply being tired was the issue, Goku wouldn't have even needed to use SSJ. His base could have gotten the job done post-recharge.

Nah, I'm not saying that. My Perfect Cell analogy covers this pretty well. You want to accept what happened before the battle, but not during and afterwards. Your argument isn't dependent on numerous pieces of evidence. It all hinges on Goku being stronger than Kid Buu. That's it. Remove that plank (which statements/observations readily do) and it falls apart.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Back in highschool, I max-benched somewhere around 200 pounds. I could only do one-rep at that. If someone slipped two 2.5 pound weights on each side, I simply couldn't rep it.

Same goes for Kid Buu. He was struggling with all of his might, but managed to overpower the genki dama. The genki dama was about close to his max. Goku adding the ki from SSJ killed it. If simply being tired was the issue, Goku wouldn't have even needed to use SSJ. His base could have gotten the job done post-recharge. When was it stated that Goku added his energy to the Genki Dama after being recharged? So far as we know, all he did was use said energy to help him push the Genki Dama toward Boo more forcefully. Until then, it simply wasn't able to make full/proper contact with Boo, because Goku's weakened base form wasn't powerful enough to push it into him hard enough *giggity*... But as evident by the fact that the Genki Dama instantly erased Boo once proper contact was made, he was obviously NOT superior to it. srsly

And since you earlier claimed that you believe Pure Boo>Boohan, what evidence do you have that the same Genki Dama would have killed Boohan..? And why on earth would you think additional absorptions(excluding the original Dai Kaioshin, who was a one-off) inextricably made Boo's original form weaker..?

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Nah, I'm not saying that. My Perfect Cell analogy covers this pretty well. You want to accept what happened before the battle, but not during and afterwards. Your argument isn't dependent on numerous pieces of evidence. It all hinges on Goku being stronger than Kid Buu. That's it. Remove that plank (which statements/observations readily do) and it falls apart. No, your Cell analogy is meaningless, because it wasn't *just* a statement from Vegeta. You forget that Goku also AGREED with Vegeta's assertion that FPSSJ3>Pure Boo... That's why he tried powering up in the first place. srsly

No, everything I mentioned IS evidence... Substantial evidence, at that. You're just opting to ignore it in favor of wanking Pure Boo with a few cherry-picked statements. But if that's your prerogative, then go ahead. Obviously your opinion is not going to change. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
When was it stated that Goku added his energy to the Genki Dama after being recharged? So far as we know, all he did was use said energy to help him push the Genki Dama toward Boo more forcefully. No, that's exactly what I'm saying. The problem is that you're suggesting the spirit bomb was already good enough overwhelm Buu on its own independent of Goku. For example, you say: Since when do ki attacks operate in this fashion? Can you show me any other instance in the series in which one is able to push back against a blast that has more ki that has more ki than they do? I don't think so.

If the spirit bomb was simply some giant hot potato waiting to explode, why was Kid Buu struggling to push it back in the first place? Why is Goku able to overwhelm Buu after going SSJ? Wouldn't he need to reach SSJ3FP as you suggest? Why is there remotely any degree of force at all that a weakened base Goku can output to make Kid Buu struggle?

Very simple. Ki blast struggles are always won by the side that is emitting more ki. It's why Frieza can't even budge the spirit bomb in his 50% state despite Goku claiming to be just about out of ki; the spirit bomb was overwhelming him on its own. It's why Kid Buu isn't able to destroy the spirit bomb with a quick kamehameha despite Goku being out of energy. It's why we see Kid Buu struggling to push the bomb back. It's not a matter of pushing hard enough, but a matter of who has the greater ki output. The spirit bomb was close, which is why Kid Buu was struggling with all his might, despite a weakened base Goku pushing it. Once Goku was recharged and went SSJ, he had enough (though incidentally needed to be healed by Dende after the fight).


The size of the bomb when Gohan and company gave their energy compared to the size of the bomb when everyone gave their energy. Mystic Gohan x 2 > Gohan Buu, since Goku told Piccolo Buu that Gohan could handle him.

Nah, the additional absorptions made Super Buu stronger, so I'm not really sure what you're suggesting. As far as weakness is concerned, however, the only two souls that are said to have the effect of having weakened Kid Buu are the South Kaioshin and Dai Kaishin's soul (Viz Translation, Volume 34, page 80: . . . So the souls he ate tamed, then this small boo is the very first most difficult one - Old Kai).

Yes, and then we get different statements and observations afterwards. So, just like with Vegeta, Android 16, and Trunks, their initial sentiments are at odds by later ones. As is the case with Kid Buu, they hadn't yet seen the full extent of Cell's power. Pretty standard plot progression. No contradictions. No cherry picking. Just facts.

I have no particular fondness for Kid Buu (or any character post-frieza arc). I'm simply telling you what the manga says. You accuse me of "wanking" and 'cherry picking' for doing just that. How droll.

Even more interesting, however, is the difference in our conclusions. You conclude Super Buu > Kid Buu and acknowledge that your conclusions require that we disregard statements and observations made by the characters. I, on the other hand, maintain that Kid Buu > Super Buu and do so without acknowledging this idea has contradictions, much less a need to disregard parts of the manga to have this viewpoint.

Everything you've said about Super Buu is all well and dandy. Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku. Everything you said that regards what happened prior to the fight with Kid Buu is also fine (with the exception of that stuff about Dai Kaioshin, since the manga says otherwise). Goku and Vegeta say Kid Buu is puny and they can take him. Goku comes into the fight with Kid Buu and does well under the circumstances. He says he can beat Kid Buu at full power. All of this is well and good. What part of it have I ignored precisely? I'm talking about what happens afterwards. Everything afterwards leads us to a much different conclusion. One you don't wish to accept for some reason.

Like Cell and Frieza, Toriyama had the heroes underestimate Kid Buu initially at their own peril. Like Cell and Frieza, Toriyama had Kid Buu slowly unearth his true power. And like Cell and Frieza, Toriyama had the good guys overcome this latest threat by the skin of their teeth. All of this makes perfect sense as it's what the author tends to do.

Here's the thing: I've had this debate dozens of times. There isn't a single thing you could tell me that I haven't shot down before. I don't expect you to change your mind, though I will welcome any actual counter-arguments. Instead of telling me to ignore what the manga says (while also accusing me of doing so for some reason), try to incorporate what the manga says into your argument. Specifically, try to explain why Goku and Vegeta's statements mean something other than what they appear to mean. Try explaining why 50% Frieza is powerless against the spirit bomb thrown by a weakened Goku, but Kid Buu is able to push a spirit bomb with at least 2x Mystic Gohan's ki back. Do that and we have a debate! Or don't. Your choice.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
There's nothing to indicate that this was the reason Vegeta was scared and plenty to indicate that it wasn't. By that logic, Goku's solution (train hard so they'll all be ready) is meaningless as Fat Buu can get angry any time, bring Kid Buu back and destroy the planet without a moment notice regardless of whether everyone trains. By saying they need to train, he's acknowledging that none of them are strong enough to deal with Kid Buu outright at that time.

Uub was not as powerful as Kid Buu as a result of not knowing how to use ki or any of his other powers (which is what Goku notes during the fight and why he goes to train him), but you're missing the point. Goku came into the fight with the impression that he was going to fight the equivalent to Kid Buu. With that mindset, he tells Hercule that he might not make it to the final round in order to "let Hercule win." He tells Vegeta that this unknown fighter is actually going to be a challenge despite being an earthling.

All of this is said despite Goku having trained the last 10 years, thus dispelling any notion that Goku could have won 10 years ago. That's what the Super Buu > Kid Buu arguments are premised upon. That Goku acknowledge being weaker than Super Buu, but thought he could beat Kid Buu, therefore making Super Buu stronger. Only Goku changes his mind about Kid Buu, realizing that he had greatly underestimated him.


We are taking every showing and statement in the arc into account. Everything you said is well and good (numbers aside), except the entire idea of Kid Buu being weaker clinches on Goku thinking he can win against Kid Buu. Then, for one reason or another, you seem to disregard every observation, showing and statement provided after the beginning of the fight. It's like concluding that Cell is weaker than Cell Saga Vegeta because Android 16 said that his sensors indicated that Vegeta was stronger. Obviously, the remainder of the arc proves otherwise. So too is the case with Kid Buu. Mid-fight, you've got Goku realizing that Kid Buu is dragging the fight out on purpose and is simply having fun (which ends up going as far as Kid Buu even toying with Hercule).

Also, lets refrain from using any numbers (i.e. SSJ3 = 8x boost to SSJ1). Not only are they not relevant, but it's just guesswork. Power levels and base multipliers stopped have any significance a long long time ago.

Except I have my copy of the Viz translation with me at hand. Where in the last manga volume does Vegeta "explicitly" say that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu? Goku and Vegeta comment on how puny he is. Vegeta also removed the fat buu from Super Buu with the impression that it would make him weaker. This is then contradicted as both Goku and Vegeta observe that Buu's ki actually rises as a result of removing Fat Buu.

Goku controlled the spirit bomb just fine against a 50% Frieza and he explicitly said he was out of ki then. In this case, Kid Buu was simply so strong that he needed his ki in order to finish the job.

The amount of ki, in the spirit bomb, however, is very relevant. After receiving ki from Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks and variety of other characters, it's explicitly noted that this ki isn't enough, hence why they end up needing Hercule to beg the entire planet for their ki. If we are to follow your logic, that amount of ki ought to have been sufficient (since it included Mystic Gohan's), Goku could have thrown it then and we could've cut straight to the scenes with the dragon restoring his ki back to normal levels.

Jesus, this is ridiculous. You're just arguing against my individual points, for the sake of argument. You still have no basis to what you're claiming here. You "debate" like a five year old.

1. Um, nope. Goku said they needed to train. Which makes sense, as several of the fighters were already superior to Kid Buu, yet Kid Buu still managed to blow up Earth. Goku just said they could train and stop Kid Buu if he showed up again. They would have been training their asses off, even if it was just fat Buu that they managed to beat. Your point is irrelevant.

2. Uub was not as powerful as kid Buu, because Uub was not as powerful as kid Buu, plain and simple.

And again, Goku's statement relies on him being weaker in base form than Z Goku was in SSJ3. This has been thrown out the window, as base Goku in Super is several times stronger than SSJ3 Goku in DBZ, if not hundreds of times stronger than him.

Meaning that once again, you've made a point that is completely irrelevant/useless, as going by your logic, "previous statements < current statements", right?

3. Your comparisons are completely unrelated. Not only is there absolutely zero evidence of Kid Buu being superior to any Buu other than Fat Buu, but you're using an example of an android's power sensor, which was unable to sense Cell's power because he was keeping it suppressed.

Kid Buu was dragging the fight on because Goku's SSJ3 power runs out so quickly, and Goku couldn't deal enough damage to finish him off. Goku even stated that the only reason he couldn't kill Kid Buu though was because he didn't have enough experience using SSJ3 while he was alive, and it took too much energy compared to when he was dead. That is all. Again, your point is completely meaningless to this argument.

4. Clearly not. Bearing regeneration, a character with a higher power level will almost always defeat a character with a lower power level. It's that simple. And the multipliers I used are official.

5. Vegeta not only said that Kid Buu was a midget, and they should be able to handle him, but he and Goku both stated that it was at least worth trying. When they were faced with base Super Buu, both Goku and Vegeta admitted there was absolutely nothing they could do to him. Again, more proof that Kid Buu < Super Buu.

6.Um, yeah? Frieza wasn't strong enough to even struggle against a spirit bomb, considering, you know, he wasn't anywhere NEAR as strong as any of the Buu's. Obviously.

And yeah, Goku needed his ki to overpower Kid Buu's grasp on the spirit bomb. But Frieza wasn't strong enough to even push back the spirit bomb. Your whole argument here is that Kid Buu is stronger than Frieza... Which... Should be pretty obvious.

7. Wrong. The spirit bomb only took small amounts of ki from Gohan, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks. Such a small amount of ki, that they were all still able to feel Goku and Kid Buu's fight from across the entire universe.

And one last thing-

http://i5.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/515/dragon-ball-72443.jpg

Goku wouldn't have mentioned this if he wasn't fully confident that Gohan OR Gotenks would have beaten Kid Buu by themselves. Because, you know, Saiyan's fight alone? Well, this scan proves that even SSJ3 Gotenks > Kid Buu, so that immediately proves that Kid Buu is either equal to, or weaker than Super Buu. And as we all know, Buutenks >>> Gotenks, Buutenks > Gohan, and Buuhan >>> everyone other than Vegetto.

So yeah, Super Buu > Kid Buu.

My stance here is that Super Buu is far and away superior to Kid Buu so that may make what I'm going to say seem biased but I noticed 2 things very wrong with what DK thinks about this.

1. Gohan did not give all of his power to the Spirit Bomb. He gave a small amount as did everyone else on Earth. Had he given all(or even most) of his power he would have been tired and visibly strained. He wasn't. And if you look at the dialog, Goku asked the people of Earth to give a little bit each. No reason to assume Gohan gave his all.

2. Piccolo is the child/reincarnation of King Piccolo much like Uub is of Buu. Piccolo was a bit stronger than KP in maybe 3 years time. After 10 years Piccolo would have killed KP by breathing too hard. Point is that just because Uub was Buu reborn doesn't mean Goku thought he would be a carbon copy of Buu's power. He likely assumed Uub would be more powerful as the absolute only time he's witnessed something like this in the past was Piccolo shitting on his former self in power

Plus Goku likes to fight and the only two beings on Earth that were stronger than him(Gotenks and Gohan) don't like to fight or are too silly to spare with. Uub was his only hope of a challenge without putting the world in danger.

Anyway that's my 2 cents. Carry on