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Wally west.

Who wins?

I don't really think there's much Wally can do.

Dr. M

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't really think there's much Wally can do. Lol. Truth.

normally id argue that dr m is too vague to put on any reliable level, but id have to agree here that flash ain't puttin him down

I'm going to try my hand at playing devil's advocate here.

Dr. Manhattan foresees himself getting IMP'd in the face, but is powerless to do anything to alter the events of the near future.

Flash ftw.

Obviously, Wally hyper-tickles Manhattan, causing him to have an epiphany that makes Wally win.

Traps him in the speed force.

Trapping him in the speed force where youd need speed the Doc dont have to escape, also what sort of speed feats make you think he can combat someoen moving that speed?

Wally won't really win in a direct match, he'd have to do something really obscure.

Dr. M deconstructs himself back into a floating consciousness what now.

Flash leaves?

not sure if DM could escape a Speed Force dump. He isn't Superboy Prime.

He takes a dump on him while in the speed force?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
He takes a dump on him while in the speed force?
Well first he dumps him into the Speed Force and while there he then takes a dump on him to compound the defeat.

What a crappy situation to be in...

To be fair, Dr. Manhattan has nowhere near the feats necessary to take on Flash.

Nevertheless, going by author intent I'm sure Dr. Manhattan would win.

Yea, feats are fine but I think unless Flash uses something unique he can't really do anything to DM. Characterization matters also. Some people (not you) take feat skewing to extremes giving characters the win simply because they have more showings.

Didn't Dr. M possess intangibility?

Originally posted by Mindset
Flash leaves?

with cancer.


DM takes this by exploding Flash.

Originally posted by Astner
To be fair, Dr. Manhattan has nowhere near the feats necessary to take on Flash.

Nevertheless, going by author intent I'm sure Dr. Manhattan would win.
Going by Author Intent DM is Trans/Skyfather. By feats he's Low-Mid Herald.

Well on a KMC match where should he be?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well on a KMC match where should he be?
I don't think he should be on KMC matches. There's little to debate. Based on his feats (which is what we mainly go by here) its hard to place him in any tier. I mean we know he's above Street or Meta, but I don't think there's reasonable cause to place him in Trans or above.

And most Mid Heralds and above have better feats than him, hell a lot of Low Heralds have better feats.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think he should be on KMC matches. There's little to debate. Based on his feats (which is what we mainly go by here) its hard to place him in any tier. I mean we know he's above Street or Meta, but I don't think there's reasonable cause to place him in Trans or above.

And most Mid Heralds and above have better feats than him, hell a lot of Low Heralds have better feats. agreed if we go by author intents hes supposed to be god and his powerset is never really explored because there is no need as all limitation on his power is speculation and based on the assumption of Manhattan himself.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Going by Author Intent DM is Trans/Skyfather. By feats he's Low-Mid Herald. can low-mid heralds create life? he stated he was able to do so

Flash could just speed steal and turn him into a statue regardless hes not keeping up with Wally in a standard forum match.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
can low-mid heralds create life? he stated he was able to do so Mabye some can.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Going by Author Intent DM is Trans/Skyfather. By feats he's Low-Mid Herald. hell no

by feats he's skyfather at the very least

can create virtual copies of himself with independent thought

can disintegrate both organic and inorganic things with a mere thought

can teleport planetary distances

invulnerable from physical harm

Originally posted by Starscream M
hell no

by feats he's skyfather at the very least

can create virtual copies of himself with independent thought

can disintegrate both organic and inorganic things with a mere thought

can teleport planetary distances

invulnerable from physical harm Except we don't know how far his power goes. We know he can effortlessly implode a human being. Beyond that its a mystery as far as his power.

Manhattan.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Except we don't know how far his power goes. We know he can effortlessly implode a human being. Beyond that its a mystery as far as his power. right...but even what he's shown, its far beyond herald

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
can low-mid heralds create life? he stated he was able to do so
Probably. Anyone with decent matter manip should be able to create life, and there are some of those in the Low-Mid Herald tiers.

Originally posted by Starscream M
right...but even what he's shown, its far beyond herald
Really? What did he do that was 'far beyond Herald'?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Probably. Anyone with decent matter manip should be able to create life, and there are some of those in the Low-Mid Herald tiers.


Really? What did he do that was 'far beyond Herald'? I don't think he did anything beyond herald.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Probably. Anyone with decent matter manip should be able to create life, and there are some of those in the Low-Mid Herald tiers.


Really? What did he do that was 'far beyond Herald'? what herald is completely invulnerable from physical harm?

what herald can see into the future?

what herald can disassemble organic (human) and inorganic (weapons) with a mere thought?

what herald can create carbon copies of himself?

what herald can teleport to different planets in an instant?

what herald can grow to skyscraper size?

----

What herald can do all of the above?

Dr.M is skyfather at the least...I'd think he actually is higher.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
I don't think he did anything beyond herald. really...answer my response to OV then.

Just saw this:
Originally posted by Starscream M
hell no

by feats he's skyfather at the very least

can create virtual copies of himself with independent thought

can disintegrate both organic and inorganic things with a mere thought

can teleport planetary distances

invulnerable from physical harm
So can Multiple Man.

Him blowing people up without any durability feats is hardly beyond Herald or even Meta level.

Teleportation while nifty isn't a Herald+ ability, even if its intergalactic

His durability while impressive isn't Herald+ either, plenty of Heralds have replicated and surpassed his (off-panel btw) walking on the sun feat.

Edit: As to the growing huge part and the seeing the future part...there are Metas who can do those things, never mind Heralds.

Originally posted by Starscream M
really...answer my response to OV then. Originally posted by Omega Vision
Just saw this:

So can Multiple Man.

Him blowing people up without any durability feats is hardly beyond Herald or even Meta level.

Teleportation while nifty isn't a Herald+ ability, even if its intergalactic

His durability while impressive isn't Herald+ either, plenty of Heralds have replicated and surpassed his (off-panel btw) walking on the sun feat.

Edit: As to the growing huge part and the seeing the future part...there are Metas who can do those things, never mind Heralds. This.

Although I think his walking on the sun feats solidifies him as at minimum a low herald.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Just saw this:

So can Multiple Man.

Him blowing people up without any durability feats is hardly beyond Herald or even Meta level.

Teleportation while nifty isn't a Herald+ ability, even if its intergalactic

His durability while impressive isn't Herald+ either, plenty of Heralds have replicated and surpassed his (off-panel btw) walking on the sun feat.

Edit: As to the growing huge part and the seeing the future part...there are Metas who can do those things, never mind Heralds. please answer my post above and list the characters that can do what I listed

Originally posted by Starscream M
please answer my post above and list the characters that can do what I listed Does any other character have that exact powerset? No. Do heralds have abilities like that with many of them being above and beyond what manhattan has shown?Yes,

Omega Vision & Black boltz, please list characters who can do each of the following

Originally posted by Starscream M
what herald is completely invulnerable from physical harm?

what herald can see into the future?

what herald can disassemble organic (human) and inorganic (weapons) with a mere thought?

what herald can create carbon copies of himself?

what herald can teleport to different planets in an instant?

what herald can grow to skyscraper size?

----

What herald can do all of the above?

Dr.M is skyfather at the least...I'd think he actually is higher.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Does any other character have that exact powerset? No. Do heralds have abilities like that with many of them being above and beyond what manhattan has shown?Yes, Im not asking for a character that has all of those...just name characters that have any one of those, but list at least one character for each of Dr. M's feats I have listed

Originally posted by Starscream M
what herald is completely invulnerable from physical harm?-Juggernaut

what herald can see into the future?-Surfer

what herald can disassemble organic (human) and inorganic (weapons) with a mere thought?-Surfer,thor...the list for this one goes on and on.

what herald can create carbon copies of himself?-Jamie Madrox

what herald can teleport to different planets in an instant?-drawing a blank...but teleportation would have nothing to do with his tier placement.

what herald can grow to skyscraper size?-Giant Man

----

What herald can do all of the above?

Dr.M is skyfather at the least...I'd think he actually is higher.

Originally posted by Starscream M
please answer my post above and list the characters that can do what I listed
I did answer your post.

If you don't know of any Heralds who can do those things then it demonstrates that either you don't know what the Herald tier is or you don't read any comics.

Originally posted by Starscream M
what herald is completely invulnerable from physical harm?

what herald can see into the future?

what herald can disassemble organic (human) and inorganic (weapons) with a mere thought?

what herald can create carbon copies of himself?

what herald can teleport to different planets in an instant?

what herald can grow to skyscraper size?

----

What herald can do all of the above?

Dr.M is skyfather at the least...I'd think he actually is higher. SNG and SS meet almost all of your criteria and have many other powers DM doesn't have. he's got no feats that justify labeling him a skyfather. besides, the tiers are about power level, not specific powerset.

surfer cannot teleport

surfer is not physically invulnerable

surfer cannot create carbon copies of himself

surfer cannot grow in size

surfer cannot disassemble molecules with a thought

yeah, he sure is similar to Dr. M *rolls eyes*

---

who's SNG?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
juggernaut is not a good example, because his durability is trans level...its higher than odins.

also, you admit you can't name someone who can teleport planetary distances.

when did thor or surfer ever disintegrate organic or inorganic matter with a mere thought?

Originally posted by Starscream M
juggernaut is not a good example, because his durability is trans level...its higher than odins.

also, you admit you can't name someone who can teleport planetary distances.

when did thor or surfer ever disintegrate organic or inorganic matter with a mere thought? And he is probably suseptible ro energy manip which is 50% of attacks...

And that matters how? Placement depends on power not powerset.

Are you really saying they can't ?

Originally posted by Starscream M
surfer cannot teleport

he can and he has. not that it matters as his warp travel is much better than all of DM's teleporting feats

neither is DM. he just reforms as the SS has done. He's also tanked and soaked far more damage than DM ever met in his life
he probably has a feat of that lying arround somewhere, but it doesnt matter. with all we know the PC can do, it's safe to assume he can and making clones isnt a feat to speak of in the first place.

yes he can and he can shrink to the microverse and grow back btw. also hank pym can grow into the abstract dimension, does that make him a skyfather?
jesus christ...
you're right his feats are better and he has more superpowers

---

shaman nate grey who also has better feats and more powers

Originally posted by Starscream M
juggernaut is not a good example, because his durability is trans level...its higher than odins.

also, you admit you can't name someone who can teleport planetary distances.

when did thor or surfer ever disintegrate organic or inorganic matter with a mere thought? if it's higher than odin's it would be skyfather or elder god level.

does anyone really see Flash speed force dumping him?

i mean how many ppl has he speed dump without help just him alone?

i am kinda half remember every time he has done it it has bn with circumstances.

if he can it will be the average version sure as hell wont be his giant size version. wally aint even lifting a toe.

I saw Brucie claiming Surfer can't manipulate matter and I loled.

Originally posted by Starscream M
surfer cannot teleport

surfer is not physically invulnerable

surfer cannot create carbon copies of himself

surfer cannot grow in size

surfer cannot disassemble molecules with a thought

yeah, he sure is similar to Dr. M *rolls eyes*

---

who's SNG?

Surfer done those and more than once to boot.

Originally posted by Starscream M
surfer cannot teleport

surfer is not physically invulnerable

surfer cannot create carbon copies of himself

surfer cannot grow in size

surfer cannot disassemble molecules with a thought

yeah, he sure is similar to Dr. M *rolls eyes*

---

who's SNG? i like how you picked things surfer has done with ease

masterbruce is terminally ill with the F.A.I.L. virus

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i like how you picked things surfer has done with ease

masterbruce is terminally ill with the F.A.I.L. virus it's the legacy virus in the final stages..

what has high heralds and skyfathers done that Manhattan hasnt?

odin ignited stars from collateral damage, placed enchantments on objects that can take out manhattan via direct attack or through time manipulation, fought a being who destroyed a galaxy to make a sword, etc

Originally posted by King Castle
what has high heralds and skyfathers done that Manhattan hasnt?
Fought other heralds.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Fought other heralds. besides that?

has he ever time traveled?
folded space crossed dimension.

absorbed a star shattered into various shards and reformed?

showed telepathy?

supervision and senses?

super speed?

taken the weight of black holes, super novas, universe collapsing?

Dr.M is intended to be "god" of his universe for all intents and purpose would have to actually see how he measures up in a fight with another herald/skyfather to see where to actually place him. For all we know at full potential if he were ever pushed he could be a cube being like Molecule Man but lack of feats and lack of an ongoing series stops that.

Isnt DM like almost omnipotent? I dont see Flash doing much.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Isnt DM like almost omnipotent? I dont see Flash doing much. No.

And how can someone be almost omnipotent?

Originally posted by Mindset
No.

And how can someone be almost omnipotent?
Ask Mr Master. He'll quote a post of his from 2007 or something.

Don't say his name, you know better!

Originally posted by Mindset
Don't say his name, you know better!
What is he like Candle Ja--

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What is he like Candle Ja--

I think you did it wrong. He couldn't have got you since you didn't even finish saying his name

Originally posted by Placidity
I think you did it wrong. He couldn't have got you since you didn't even finish saying his name
No, pretty sure he's proactive enough to stop you before that.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Probably. Anyone with decent matter manip should be able to create life, and there are some of those in the Low-Mid Herald tiers.
he stated an interest in creating an entire planet wide ecosystem i think. different than creating some little guy

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
he stated an interest in creating an entire planet wide ecosystem i think. different than creating some little guy SS has manipulated life on a planetary scale. DM said he might create some life elsewhere. absolom mercator had excellent life creating and manipulation feats and most wouldn't call him a high herald.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Dr.M is intended to be "god" of his universe for all intents and purpose would have to actually see how he measures up in a fight with another herald/skyfather to see where to actually place him. For all we know at full potential if he were ever pushed he could be a cube being like Molecule Man but lack of feats and lack of an ongoing series stops that.
I don't think he's intended to be "God", he just reached a higher level than other humans and it gave him various sweet-ass abilities. I think the intent was to show how a human with that kind of power would be changed. Not to let the readers know that Hollis Mason will have Dr. Manhattan to shit on his retirement in heaven.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Isnt DM like almost omnipotent? I dont see Flash doing much. His portrayal didn't even show that.

I think he was easily intended to be skyfather. but he lacks the facts to place him there.

I don't think Alan Moore "intended" any particular tier for him, I mean its not as if he traveled into the future and looked up the KMC tiers thread and decided "yeah that one".

Personally I think Alan Moore was shooting for a Silver Surfer level character, because in a world populated by street levelers devoid of Metas and above such a character would seem like a God.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think Alan Moore "intended" any particular tier for him, I mean its not as if he traveled into the future and looked up the KMC tiers thread and decided "yeah that one".

Personally I think Alan Moore was shooting for a Silver Surfer level character, because in a world populated by street levelers devoid of Metas and above such a character would seem like a God. Well I ment skyfather level power in general or above. Not specifically that "tier" but like odin level of power or higher that level of power.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Well I ment skyfather level power in general or above. Not specifically that "tier" but like odin level of power or higher that level of power.
I don't think Alan Moore ever considered him to be that high on the pole, or if he did he certainly never suggested it in any interview I've seen.

Look at who was originally going to fill Doc's slot: Captain Atom. Doctor Manhattan was pretty much Captain Atom with a Quantum Mechanics focus rather than a nuclear power focus.

he was meant to be alien and uncomprehensibly powerfull and frightening to humans and he was just exactly that. he is a much better character than silver surfer (and I really like silver surfer) and there is no reason to wank his power level or speculate he could wipe a galaxy out, watchmen was a masterpiece without any galaxy busting feats in it. unnecessary overt displays of cosmic power would have weakened the series' realism

Originally posted by 753
he was meant to be alien and uncomprehensibly powerfull and frightening to humans and he was just exactly that. he is a much better character than silver surfer (and I really like silver surfer) and there is no reason to wank his power level or speculate he could wipe a galaxy out, watchmen was a masterpiece without any galaxy busting feats in it. unnecessary overt displays of cosmic power would have weakened the series' realism
Agreed.

In a way subjecting Watchmen to the same kind of "rawr featz!!" thinking that we apply to most comics cheapens it a bit.

At least everyone can agree Watchmen was perfect as it is.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
At least everyone can agree Watchmen was perfect as it is.
I don't think it was perfect. It was amazing but not perfect.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think it was perfect. It was amazing but not perfect. Why does everyone always take my exagerations literally uhuh?

Who cares if Dr. Manhatten is more powerful than Surfer or vice versa? All anybody needs to know in this thread is that he is more than powerful enough to take care of Flash.

Originally posted by tkitna
Who cares if Dr. Manhatten is more powerful than Surfer or vice versa? All anybody needs to know in this thread is that he is more than powerful enough to take care of Flash. characters that can go intangible and have precog are a bad matchup for flash

It's more about Flash being unable to do anything to him, other characters can have the aforementioned abilities and they'd lose to him unless they are really uber.

The Flash has affected intangible opponents before. And Dr. M has really zero feats against anyone with any superpowers. And it was stated he "probably" couldn't stop ALL of the USSRs nukes. If he can't stop that, he can't stop the Flash.

i dont see how Manhattans inability to stop all the worlds nukes translates to a loss since Flash is also incapable of reaching them all and stopping them or disarming them.

not saying Flash is incapable of winning but questioning the logic and reasoning with why he would win by referencing the nuke statement

Well, if he isn't fast enough to stop all those nukes, it stands to reason he can't hit the Flash, considering the speed difference between the Flash and a missile. I recall the Flash saved every single person in a city before a nuke went off....one by one.

Originally posted by keiththegreat
Well, if he isn't fast enough to stop all those nukes, it stands to reason he can't hit the Flash, considering the speed difference between the Flash and a missile. I recall the Flash saved every single person in a city before a nuke went off....one by one. irreleevant, sppedsters can be tagged with are of effect attacks

Originally posted by 753
irreleevant, sppedsters can be tagged with are of effect attacks are you alright, seizures?

irrelevant, speedsters can be tagged with area effect attacks

Originally posted by keiththegreat
Well, if he isn't fast enough to stop all those nukes, it stands to reason he can't hit the Flash, considering the speed difference between the Flash and a missile. I recall the Flash saved every single person in a city before a nuke went off....one by one. and yet how can flash hurt dr. Manhattan?

also flash ability to rescue ppl from the nuke doesnt translate to anything relevant to this fight.

i say this as manhattan has stated he is able to see quark energies come into existence or some such that in itself solidifies his tracking and processing thinking abilities.

Originally posted by keiththegreat
Well, if he isn't fast enough to stop all those nukes, it stands to reason he can't hit the Flash, considering the speed difference between the Flash and a missile. I recall the Flash saved every single person in a city before a nuke went off....one by one. I think even flash might have trouble stopping 51,000 nukes AFTER they are fired. Which is what Manhattan couldn't stop.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
I think even flash might have trouble stopping 51,000 nukes AFTER they are fired. Which is what Manhattan couldn't stop. No, he wouldn't.

I mean, if he actually had the power to stop a nuke.

Originally posted by Mindset
No, he wouldn't.

I mean, if he actually had the power to stop a nuke. hilarious

Originally posted by 753
SS has manipulated life on a planetary scale. DM said he might create some life elsewhere. absolom mercator had excellent life creating and manipulation feats and most wouldn't call him a high herald. k thanks

people were only speculating about if DM could stop all the nukes or not. wouldnt you have a hard time getting your head around someone stopping that many nukes after they launched? we were never given conclusive evidence that he couldnt.

Originally posted by Starscream M
hilarious Why?

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
people were only speculating about if DM could stop all the nukes or not. wouldnt you have a hard time getting your head around someone stopping that many nukes after they launched? we were never given conclusive evidence that he couldnt.

I have no doubt if Superman was going all out, he could do so. A missile isn't even close to light speed. My entire point is that Dr. M is way overrated. Just because he is a god in a world with few if any other "super" heroes, doesn't mean jack shit.

I don't know why people are even using the nukes thing as an example for his power level.

Ozy didn't think he could stop them all.

Ozy also didn't think that he would survive being atomized and look how that turned out for ozy

Originally posted by Black bolt z
I don't know why people are even using the nukes thing as an example for his power level.

Ozy didn't think he could stop them all.

Ozy also didn't think that he would survive being atomized and look how that turned out for ozy

well, we don't have much else to go by, do we? its not like he has a ton of feats like the flash does. DM teleported to mars. big deal. The flash could run to mars just as fast (and yes, he can run in space...don't ask me how).

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
well, we don't have much else to go by, do we? its not like he has a ton of feats like the flash does. DM teleported to mars. big deal. The flash could run to mars just as fast (and yes, he can run in space...don't ask me how). Speed force is haxxx always has been always will be.

Gotta love it.

Originally posted by Mindset
No, he wouldn't.

I mean, if he actually had the power to stop a nuke. if he speed steals a nuclear warhead just about to go off would that prevent the explosion?

Originally posted by 753
if he speed steals a nuclear warhead just about to go off would that prevent the explosion? I'm not sure, I mean, it would still plummet to the earth.

I'm sure he could find a creative way to deal with them. Irrelevant to this match though.

he could grab them all and throw them in space probably.

Originally posted by 753
if he speed steals a nuclear warhead just about to go off would that prevent the explosion?
IIRC most nukes are set to go off in the air rather than hitting the ground.

I meant can speed steal stop the fusion reaction?

yup. they do more area of effect damage if they go off in the air.

plus a little thing called gravity

Originally posted by 753
I meant can speed steal stop the fusion reaction?
Probably. Actually definitely. We are talking about the Speed Force here.