DE Sidious vs

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Kotor3
Which combo could take DE Sidious?

DE Sidious vs

Yoda and Mace
Jacen and Bane
DE Luke and Vader
DE Luke and Jacen

axel_jovan
Yoda and Mace win.
Jacen and Bane win. Jacen probably dies though.
DE Luke with either Vader or Jacen, hmm.
Clearly DE Luke can rival Palps in sabers alone, what happens when Vader or Jacen are added to the mix? I'd say Palps still has the edge.

ares834
So Jacen and Bane can beat Palpatine, but DE Luke and Jacen can't... hmmm. Something is fishy here.

axel_jovan
Well, is DE Luke in the same league as Bane?

Zampanó
DE Luke shits on Bane's pillow.

Nephthys
Nah. I'd give Bane the win over DE Luke more often than not.

Zampanó
Why do you think that, Neph?

Nephthys
Superior feats really. He's the better swordsman, probably equalish in speed (best speed feat for DE Luke?) and has the better telekinetic feats of the two, as well as incredibly potent Force Lightning. Did DE Luke even know how to block lightning at that point? And which Bane is this? The better one would be ROT Bane imo. Those Orbalisks are really too much of an advantage to pass up.

Zampanó
Originally posted by Nephthys
Superior feats really. He's the better swordsman, probably equalish in speed (best speed feat for DE Luke?) and has the better telekinetic feats of the two, as well as incredibly potent Force Lightning. Did DE Luke even know how to block lightning at that point? And which Bane is this? The better one would be ROT Bane imo. Those Orbalisks are really too much of an advantage to pass up.
I'm not sure these feats beat out Luke's.

Luke basically dismissed a laser blast from a walker, and brought that same machine down with TK, I believe. That seems better than anything Bane can dish out. DE Luke had been trained by Palpatine, so it stands to reason that he should be able to deal with FL. I leave that question open for anyone that has read the comic? And with regard to speed, Luke fought Palpatine in a youthful/regenerated body. Palpatine is known to draw heavily on Force speed (Shatterpoint, RotS Novelization) and Luke would have to do the same to keep up.

Without bothering to google anything, I'd say that this is a pretty even match, actually.

Pwned
Where does Palps draw on force speed at in Shatterpoint? He only has about 15-20 pages hes included in.......

But yeah, Palps style is a massive speed thing as we all know from ROTS.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Superior feats really. He's the better swordsman, probably equalish in speed (best speed feat for DE Luke?)
I recall that Sidious and Luke fought at bluring speeds, and that Leia was unable to even see them...

No not really. Luke Skywalker effortlessly destroys an AT-AT. Bane on the other hand, becomes exhausted after collapsing the entrance to an ancient temple. In fact that feat is wanked as hell, all Bane really did was crumble the entrance, which then caused the crumbling temple to fall apart. It's impressive, but not as impressive as certain people make it out to be, AKA "he force pushed a temple over!"

It's not some unique skill, one simply has to hold up the lightsaber and block it... Also the RotJ novel claims that Luke is somewhat repulsing Palpatine's lighting. Take that as you will.

Well it depends. Against Palpatine those Orbalisks may be more of a disadvantage. If one small dose of lightning gets through, Bane would likely be down for the count.

Zampanó
Originally posted by Pwned
Where does Palps draw on force speed at in Shatterpoint? He only has about 15-20 pages hes included in.......

But yeah, Palps style is a massive speed thing as we all know from ROTS.
My mistake, I go onto autopilot when referencing the RotS fight; it is so often being used to help Mace that I sort of blanked out. Retracted.

That's not how it works.

The orbalisks provide a positive feed back loop; the presence of Dark Side energy prompts a release of various chemicals that serve to aggravate and enrage Bane even further. The Dark Side energy from his own Force Lightning, fueled by the feedback loop from the orbalisks themselves, was the actual cause of the catastrophe. It is a misconception that Bane is particularly vulnerable to any lightning; the effect was only significant because it was his own lightning.

I think. I'd have to look up the quote. Mad bonus points to anybody that quotes the entire scene.

ares834

Zampanó
Well huh. I'm gonna take everything back and ABSCOND for tonight.

I'll try to have a real response (i.e. one that takes more than 2 minutes to type) tomorrow between 5 (school's out) and 7 (nightlife) central time.

Oh, and I can't download anything so thanks for posting the full excerpt.

Nephthys
I can't recall how he brought down that walker actually, memory indicates that he either reflected its blast or tripped it. Bane can effortlessly disintergrate entire beings with his TK and can tear through master-level defences with it as if they were tissue paper. Personally I'd put him above Luke TK wise, on those grounds.



Why would Palpatine train him to defend hiself from the one attack Luke has no defence against? It seems unlikely that the one weapon Palps possesses that only he does and knows how to defend against would be the one that Palps would train him to defend against.



Luke was empowered by Leia and her unborn child at teh time. In fact I believe he was empowered by the entirity of the Lightside iirc. Earlier the Emperor beat him in half a page as if he was swatting a fly. Either way its not a speed he can replicate in a forum fight

@Ares



See above.



Personally I see disintergrating entire beings through telekinesis as the more impressive feat, yes.



No one doesn't. Lightning is not magnetically attracted to a lightsaber. The jedi has to draw the lightning into the blade or the arcs will just go around it and hit him anyway.



A) I'm discussing Luke vs Bane, not Palpatine vs Bane. I don't know if Luke used lightning by then, though he certainly is not aware of the orbalisks relative vulnerability to them.

B) It would take considerably more than one small dose. Earlier in ROT the orbalisks absorb over a million volts of electricity with not problem at all.

Also as Zam pointed out, they consume darkside energy.

ares834

hehknwswhtufear
post removed

Nephthys
The AT-AT feat is ambiguous imo. It looks to me judging from legs in the final panel that he trips it. http://libraries.darkhorse.com/reviews/previews.php?theid=17-422&p=2



I'm not having any luck finding the fight online, but from what I remember, no.



In ROT when he was fighting the technobeasts. Passages describe him as disintegrating technobeasts with waves of his hand. Note that some of those technobeasts were creatures as big as Rancors.



I see no reason why lightning would just be drawn to a lightsaber without some form of help.



When he's attacked by the Sith assassins in ROT. He just lets them hit him with their electricised pikes and the orbalisks absorb the electricity.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Nephthys
I see no reason why lightning would just be drawn to a lightsaber without some form of help.


Obi-Wan could do it. I see no reason for him not to pass this knowledge on to Luke if the Emperor is still alive and he calls Luke their only hope of defeating the Empire.

Nephthys
Obi-Wan was dead after teaching him for a few hours. If anyone would teach him it was Yoda. Though if he had taught him that Luke wouldn't have thrown away the one thing he needed to stop Palpatines attacks.

Its pure speculation that he could do it unless we actually have some proof that he could.

ares834

Zampanó
I'd like to post, but I'm simply not sure any more which side to pick. If you give me the quotes I'll decide for myself, but if you want to argue your respective cases then I'd be happy to arbitrate this thread (that is, if you agree to have me pick a winner).

ares834

ares834

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan was dead after teaching him for a few hours. If anyone would teach him it was Yoda. Though if he had taught him that Luke wouldn't have thrown away the one thing he needed to stop Palpatines attacks.

Its pure speculation that he could do it unless we actually have some proof that he could.

Obi-Wan left all his knowledge behind on Tattooine. That's how Luke was able to create a new lightsaber. Also, Obi-Ghost-Kenobi.

As for Luke throwing away his lightsaber, it was all part of his grand plan, he knew that Palpatine would attack him and that Vader would rescue him. No just kidding, Luke just has weird ways of showing his points. Palpatine could have attacked him in any number of ways for which Luke would need his lightsaber.

Nephthys
'Pressing on it' doesn't explain what happened. It clearly falls over, which simple pressure wouldn't do. The final panel on page 3 has teh legs all twisted, so what he probably did was twist its legs through TK to get it to fall over. The head was previously hit by the deflected cannonfire. This is why it explodes when it hits the ground. The ESB scene had it faceplant into snow, not the hard pavement(?).



It's specifically mentioned that they're made of metal mostly, and the metals of SW are alot harder than our metals.



Non-canon going from the above excerpt.



He left a few journals, with an unknown amount of info in them. And Luke's stupid, but he's not that stupid. Meow.

ares834

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Nephthys
He left a few journals, with an unknown amount of info in them. And Luke's stupid, but he's not that stupid. Meow.

It is very likely that the information for blocking the Emperor's main attacking power is in his journal. If we are going to apply a new way of reasoning than surely this can be included into an actual argument. There is no reason for Obi-Wan not to include this essential piece of information.

Luke threw his lightsaber away... you just don't do that under any circumstance, especially not if you're on a station with loads of stormtroopers and your main defense against blaster fire is a lightsaber. So yes, Luke actually is that stupid.

Lord Lucien
I know y'all want to institute a "new" way of thinking, but flat out presuming that Obi-Wan wrote specifically about the effects of Force Lightning on a lightsaber is... well just that, presumption. Based on nothing. Considering that canon Luke never even attempted to resist Palaptine's attack, its more reasonable to deduce that Obi-Wan never wrote of it.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I know y'all want to institute a "new" way of thinking, but flat out presuming that Obi-Wan wrote specifically about the effects of Force Lightning on a lightsaber is... well just that, presumption. Based on nothing. Considering that canon Luke never even attempted to resist Palaptine's attack, its more reasonable to deduce that Obi-Wan never wrote of it.

What we don't know is how FL is blocked. It doesn't seem to be that complicated, we've seen Force users just hold up their lightsabers with relative ease (Obi-Wan) and then the lightsabers act like a lightning rod. If someone could explain how Lightning gets blocked and if it'd be a difficult procedure then I might understand why Obi-Wan didn't put it in his journals. If however, you just have to hold up the freaking lightsaber then it is practically impossible to assume that in those 2 decades Obi-Wan didn't think to himself:

"Hmm, maybe I should also mention that holding up your lightsaber can defend you against the most powerful Dark Side attack... especially now that I don't have much else to do except wait until the guy who has to defeat the Emperor (who uses FL) is ready."

As for Luke never attempting to resist Palpatine's attack, he didn't really have a lot of choice because you know, he was getting electrocuted. If you mean by "Luke never even attempted to resist Palaptine's attack" that he threw away his lightsaber, then I still blame his trust in Vader because Sidious could also have hidden a blaster in his cloak and Luke would also need a lightsaber to block that.

EDIT: I'm going to support the new way of thinking in this case because you actually don't know every single word that was written in Obi-Wan's journals, so we can assume that he wrote the essentials of the Force in them. It's almost certain that knowledge about Force Lightning was contained in the journals, what else would Obi-Wan write in them?

hehknwswhtufear
Does the Expanded Universe give us any idea of what sort of requirements there are behind learning the ability to defend against Force Lightning (i.e. perequisite base abilities, general level of competence, time etc.). If it can be reasonably assumed that Yoda and Obi-Wan felt that they were in a position to successfully teach him the ability, the likelihood that they would have attempted to do so is high.

SwordOfTheJedi

RE: Blaxican
Man, I hate Family Guy.

SwordOfTheJedi
Jokes aside, I am leaning towards Ares' position (DE Luke) on this one. However, this debate has prompted a question:

If it was Bane w/ Orbalisk armor (did he still have the armor in ROT, or or Dynasty, it has been a while since I read the books) vs. DE Luke, how would DE Luke go about defeating him, or at least getting through his orb armor? Assume Force Lightning is not used.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
What we don't know is how FL is blocked. It doesn't seem to be that complicated, we've seen Force users just hold up their lightsabers with relative ease (Obi-Wan) and then the lightsabers act like a lightning rod. If someone could explain how Lightning gets blocked and if it'd be a difficult procedure then I might understand why Obi-Wan didn't put it in his journals. If however, you just have to hold up the freaking lightsaber then it is practically impossible to assume that in those 2 decades Obi-Wan didn't think to himself:

"Hmm, maybe I should also mention that holding up your lightsaber can defend you against the most powerful Dark Side attack... especially now that I don't have much else to do except wait until the guy who has to defeat the Emperor (who uses FL) is ready."

As for Luke never attempting to resist Palpatine's attack, he didn't really have a lot of choice because you know, he was getting electrocuted. If you mean by "Luke never even attempted to resist Palaptine's attack" that he threw away his lightsaber, then I still blame his trust in Vader because Sidious could also have hidden a blaster in his cloak and Luke would also need a lightsaber to block that.

EDIT: I'm going to support the new way of thinking in this case because you actually don't know every single word that was written in Obi-Wan's journals, so we can assume that he wrote the essentials of the Force in them. It's almost certain that knowledge about Force Lightning was contained in the journals, what else would Obi-Wan write in them? I'm not going to. I understand the intention behind it, but flat out presuming that Kenobi put that specific tidbit in there is too much. He could have biographied the entire Order's history to his knowledge, his thoughts and opinions, pros and cons, problems and solutions, the rituals and methods etc., but we know that he didn't, given Luke's near complete ignorance in the post-RotJ material.

We also have Kenobi's (and Yoda's) unusual method of training and preparation. Not bothering to train one half of Anakin's children, waiting 19 years before external circumstances forced them to begin on Luke, lieing to him about his paternity, Kenobi's frankly pointless sacrifice, his waiting 3 years to tell him of Yoda, Yoda's initial refusal to train him, not preventing him from going to face Vader, waiting until Yoda's a year from death to begin his training... oy.

After all that, casually forgetting to mention the properties (nay, existence) of Force Lightning seems like a pretty minor thing. Those two assholes were the biggest gamblers and risk takers in the entire mythos. Palpatine's got nothing on them.

axel_jovan

Nephthys
No. It's only when he faces the Vong that he gains electric judgement iirc and then afterwards the entire order starts using FL because they had some retarded philosophy going on.

I agree with your views. The orbalisks are too big a factor for Luke to overcome. Likewise the force side of things its a tough call but imo Bane has better application on a offensive scale. I always got the impression that Luke followed Yoda's 'the force is used for defence, but never attack' philosophy.

hehknwswhtufear
I blame everything that has happened in this thread on Red Nemesis. -The Bastard- has manipulated you people into doubting Bane's overwhelming superiority over DE Luke, including ares who posted before him, and yet none of you see this, particularly ares who has been completely oblivious to his role in this.

Letum Lettow
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Well, is DE Luke in the same league as Bane? Um. No.

DE Luke stomps all over his pimply roiding ass.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by hehknwswhtufear
I blame everything that has happened in this thread on Red Nemesis. -The Bastard- has manipulated you people into doubting Bane's overwhelming superiority over DE Luke, including ares who posted before him, and yet none of you see this, particularly ares who has been completely oblivious to his role in this. Please, Bane couldn't take on Qui-Gon, much less DE Luke.

Letum Lettow
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Please, Bane couldn't take on Qui-Gon, much less DE Luke. Im pretty sure qg would just die. JUST DIE. Seriously, Bane could stomp all over Maul.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Im pretty sure qg would just die. JUST DIE. Seriously, Bane could stomp all over Maul. Bane's got no feats to match Maul. He wore some bugs. Big deal. Maul could do backflips.

axel_jovan
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Bane's got no feats to match Maul. He wore some bugs. Big deal. Maul could do backflips.

QFT

And as we all know backflips = WIN

Can DE Luke do backflips? If so, this debate is OVER.

Slash_KMC
Devil's advocate = me.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

We also have Kenobi's (and Yoda's) unusual method of training and preparation. Not bothering to train one half of Anakin's children,

I assume they didn't want to give away Leia's secret identity and by training her in the ways of the Force, Palpatine and Vader would quickly piece the puzzles together and know about Leia being Vader's daughter.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

waiting 19 years before external circumstances forced them to begin on Luke,

I guess they like... waited for the Force... to show them the opportune moment... like, probably.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

lieing to him about his paternity,

This is probably the most logical part. They knew that Luke was going to be the gambler and try to get his father back to the light side instead of killing him like he's supposed to. Thus lowering the chance of victory.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Kenobi's frankly pointless sacrifice,

He became more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine. He gained the Ghost DBZ Instant Transmission technique.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

his waiting 3 years to tell him of Yoda

If he had told him about Yoda earlier than maybe Vader would have searched Luke's feelings and found out about Yoda and maybe Obi-Wan couldn't Force Ghost appear before that time. Also, the Force probably told Obi-Wan to wait for the opportune moment.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Yoda's initial refusal to train him,

He was testing Luke. Period.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

not preventing him from going to face Vader,

He did warn Luke, but wanted Luke to make the right choice on his own, he didn't really do that but everything turned out okay right? Yoda also knew they still had a Leia trump card left.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

waiting until Yoda's a year from death to begin his training...

You can't really predict when you're a year away from death. Plus, the Force told them to do so. Probably.

All in all, we can conclude that Obi-Wan and Yoda were smart but misleaded tools of a stupid Force guide. It's the shooter that's to blame for the bullets kill. Probably.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by axel_jovan
QFT

And as we all know backflips = WIN

Can DE Luke do backflips? If so, this debate is OVER.

By TESB, Luke was already doing some damn insane twirls.

Lord Lucien
I'm just gonna sum up everything you said there in to "They were nitwits." Which is true.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm just gonna sum up everything you said there in to "They were nitwits." Which is true.

It's a Jersey Star Wars thing. I remember discussing the intelligence of certain Star Wars characters with Gideon. I didn't like the "Dark Side clouding their minds" excuse for some of the stupid decisions they made.

Lord Lucien
Sure the Jedi Council saw "grave danger" in Anakin's training, but Palpatine practically mind tricked them in to doing it.

Slash_KMC
Sure they thought Palpatine was suspicious, but they forgot to take a blood sample to check for midichlorian because Palpatine tricked them.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.