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So instead of attacking London, Millennium sets its sights on the Village Hidden in the Leaves. This is just after the timeskip.

Millennium's Forces
1000 Nazi Vampires
The Captain
Zorin
Rip van Winkle
Dandy Man
Luke Valentine

Their only objective is to kill every last citizen of the village.

Can they succeed?

Hm, just after the timeskip, you've got Tsunade, Jiraiya, Danzo, Kakashi, and Gai as Konoha's biggest guns.

Rip's bullet is a problem, but she can't handle a giant summon.

I'd say it's possible for Millennium to win, but it depends on how fast the Ninja realize what they need to do against each vampire and with the right deployments can definitely win. If they don't take out the ninja who can take out their big threats first, the ninja can turn things around. Casualties will be heavy regardless, but my bet is on Konoha.

he destroys it in one blast

Millennium stomps

Jiraiya and Yamato get together to make a river under the enemy forces

Originally posted by Q99
Jiraiya and Yamato get together to make a river under the enemy forces


Why would they assume they know they are vampires, and that they are weak to water?



And this is before they die, right?

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Why would they assume they know they are vampires, and that they are weak to water?

General knowledge of each side is common in vs. I'm assuming the Ninja know about Vampires and Vampires know that they're going to be up against magic ninja and thus won't be caught offguard when people start throwing fireballs, lightning bolts, and mini-earthquakes at them.

I mean, it's not like it's the only way to inflict mass damage, so even if we assume no knowledge they'll manage. Gai could do an Afternoon Tiger and blow up a few hundred of them in one go, and Naruto can fox out. But it'd be one way to gain a significant edge.




Way before. They've got fortifications, cover (and the ability to make more cover as needed), something like 10 times the enemy's number, superhuman speed and reflexes so they aren't screwed against vamps in close like humans are, lots of fireballs and similar, and plenty of strong ninja often with abilities like mind-control and illusion too.


The enemy elites, specifically Rip, The Captain, and the Dandy, are big problems and only the super-elite ninja have a real chance of stopping them, so if the vampire commanders can manage to take them out Millennium can win, but if the vampire commanders get taken out, the ninja will come out on top. The rank and file vampires aren't enough to carry the day against the higher end ninja.

Originally posted by Q99
General knowledge of each side is common in vs. I'm assuming the Ninja know about Vampires and Vampires know that they're going to be up against magic ninja and thus won't be caught offguard when people start throwing fireballs, lightning bolts, and mini-earthquakes at them.

I mean, it's not like it's the only way to inflict mass damage, so even if we assume no knowledge they'll manage. Gai could do an Afternoon Tiger and blow up a few hundred of them in one go, and Naruto can fox out. But it'd be one way to gain a significant edge.




Way before. They've got fortifications, cover (and the ability to make more cover as needed), something like 10 times the enemy's number, superhuman speed and reflexes so they aren't screwed against vamps in close like humans are, lots of fireballs and similar, and plenty of strong ninja often with abilities like mind-control and illusion too.


The enemy elites, specifically Rip, The Captain, and the Dandy, are big problems and only the super-elite ninja have a real chance of stopping them, so if the vampire commanders can manage to take them out Millennium can win, but if the vampire commanders get taken out, the ninja will come out on top. The rank and file vampires aren't enough to carry the day against the higher end ninja.


You're overestimating the ninjas. Very few of them are on par with the vampires in terms of speed and reactions, and most ninjas have no real defence against automatic guns. Furthermoar, Millennium is a military organization. I am willing to bet that they'd have greater tactics then Konoha (Especially considering each and every vampire is Waffen SS with decades of experience).

The Vampires are honestly going to be superior to most of the ninjas physically, what with being able to dodge bullets and rip humans apart with their bare hands, being generally immune to most of their weapons, and hai. Guess what. Illusions dun work on vampires. Thank you Third Eye (Which also grants vampires extraordinary senses and marksmanship.)

I can almost guarantee you that Konoha will not be able to take out the elite of Millennium. Rip van Winkle alone would utterly wreck most of them, what with her bullets that can keep up and hit something going at mach 2.8 several times and penetrate titanium. Zorin Blitz will wreck most ninjas with her illusions that take a crap on most genjutsu, and The Captain. Lol Captain.

Apparently damaging jets isn't impressive. They're not armored.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
You're overestimating the ninjas. Very few of them are on par with the vampires in terms of speed and reactions,

In terms of running speed, I think genin are comparable, although they are slower in reaction.

Higher rank ninja are faster than normal vamps. And keep in mind, we're talking about 10k ninja total, so more chunin+ people than there are vampires, most likely. Maybe a hundred jonin/special jonin types. A minority of them being on a level with the vampires still leaves a large number comparable and a reasonable group superior to the rank and file. There's enough of the slower ones to still be useful too.



Cover. Cover's a nice defense against automatic guns, and ninja know how that works. Some ninja can even make cover for a large group.

Only a small number have individual powers that let them defend well against guns, but even a low rank mook ninja can toss explosive tags from cover.



Konona is a military organization which has war tactics. Not all of them are vets, but plenty of them are, against foes with a wide variety of powers.




They can dodge bullets to an extent, but human Iscariot priests were able to kill them with pistols. At high casualties, but still. It's more the Third Eye that lets them judge where bullets will be, but they aren't always fast enough to get out of the way/can be taken by surprise.

Also, elemental jutsu should be able to blow them apart pretty well, and those are quite common among the ninja, and even kunai through the skull will do.

All ninja have superhuman stats like strength to various degrees. Genin may be weaker, but chunin are probably close, and higher rank ninja are physically superior. An ANBU with a sword should be able to cut them up much better than Integra.


As for illusions, they aren't immune. Zorin's illusions worked on her twice- first for a few moments when she was as part of a group, which the third eye let her break free of, then when Zorin focused on her specifically, she didn't break free at all, she lost her arm and eyes in a tactic just like Kurenai uses.

It was only when Seras gained Pip that she became immune to Zorin's illusions, and these vampires don't have familiars.





Yes, her bullets can kill most of them, though conversely there are ninja that can kill her given the chance once they find her location (and using various means to approach stealthily).

She's really the most deciding factor in the fight, how long she lasts and how many of the big ninja threats she can take out.



Conversely we've seen genjutsu stronger than that, and it's only hard to break when focused on an individual, on a group it's easy to break and breaking illusions is something ninja are trained for.

It's like having one special jonin genjutsu specialist- she's really nothing exceptional in terms of what the ninja are used to fighting.



The second most dangerous of the lot. Still, there are ways to deal with him. Kakashi's mangekyo sharingan Kamui. Danzo's Shisui eye. Hitting him with a sealing that paralyzes him. Possessing him with a Yamanaka and turning him against his comrades for a temporary but very bloody solution.



Conversely, you have people like Gai, who can rip through hundreds of vampires and only the officers might be able to stop. Danzo, who's Izanagi will allow him to ignore any attacks while dishing out damage. Jiraiya, who in sage mode is super-powerful and I doubt normal bullets would do much of anything to him. Also normal bullets definitely won't do anything to his frog summons. Hiasha Hyuga, who's Kaiten creates large craters and sends dozens of people flying, and would be immune to bullets while it's under effect, so he'd be able to wipe out squads pretty easily. Yamato and other Earth specialists who can have the ground beneath them swallow them up. The Nara clan, who can freeze the vampires in place and let genin walk up, take their guns, and slice their heads off. The Yamanaka, who can make them turn on each other.



Hellsing stuff is badass, no doubt, but don't overlook the capabilities of the opposition. The opposition here is around ten thousand superhumans, ranging from merely having high stats to having battlefield shaping abilities and stats in excess of all but a few of the opposition.

Killer Bee, one of the absolute fastest ninjas in the series, was calced to be about mach 2-3 using his chakra shroud.

So vampires in Hellsing, the average vampire, is faster than nearly every Naruto ninja.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Killer Bee, one of the absolute fastest ninjas in the series, was calced to be about mach 2-3 using his chakra shroud.

So vampires in Hellsing, the average vampire, is faster than nearly every Naruto ninja.

The average vampire cannot go near mach 2-3. The Wild Geese were able to shoot them when they were hopping over the minefield, heck they would've been able to just run past the mindfield, and the Iscariot priests were able to kill them as well.

They have really good reflexes but they are definitely sub-mach.

Originally posted by Q99
In terms of running speed, I think genin are comparable, although they are slower in reaction.

Higher rank ninja are faster than normal vamps. And keep in mind, we're talking about 10k ninja total, so more chunin+ people than there are vampires, most likely. Maybe a hundred jonin/special jonin types. A minority of them being on a level with the vampires still leaves a large number comparable and a reasonable group superior to the rank and file. There's enough of the slower ones to still be useful too.



Cover. Cover's a nice defense against automatic guns, and ninja know how that works. Some ninja can even make cover for a large group.

Only a small number have individual powers that let them defend well against guns, but even a low rank mook ninja can toss explosive tags from cover.



Konona is a military organization which has war tactics. Not all of them are vets, but plenty of them are, against foes with a wide variety of powers.




They can dodge bullets to an extent, but human Iscariot priests were able to kill them with pistols. At high casualties, but still. It's more the Third Eye that lets them judge where bullets will be, but they aren't always fast enough to get out of the way/can be taken by surprise.

Also, elemental jutsu should be able to blow them apart pretty well, and those are quite common among the ninja, and even kunai through the skull will do.

All ninja have superhuman stats like strength to various degrees. Genin may be weaker, but chunin are probably close, and higher rank ninja are physically superior. An ANBU with a sword should be able to cut them up much better than Integra.


As for illusions, they aren't immune. Zorin's illusions worked on her twice- first for a few moments when she was as part of a group, which the third eye let her break free of, then when Zorin focused on her specifically, she didn't break free at all, she lost her arm and eyes in a tactic just like Kurenai uses.

It was only when Seras gained Pip that she became immune to Zorin's illusions, and these vampires don't have familiars.





Yes, her bullets can kill most of them, though conversely there are ninja that can kill her given the chance once they find her location (and using various means to approach stealthily).

She's really the most deciding factor in the fight, how long she lasts and how many of the big ninja threats she can take out.



Conversely we've seen genjutsu stronger than that, and it's only hard to break when focused on an individual, on a group it's easy to break and breaking illusions is something ninja are trained for.

It's like having one special jonin genjutsu specialist- she's really nothing exceptional in terms of what the ninja are used to fighting.



The second most dangerous of the lot. Still, there are ways to deal with him. Kakashi's mangekyo sharingan Kamui. Danzo's Shisui eye. Hitting him with a sealing that paralyzes him. Possessing him with a Yamanaka and turning him against his comrades for a temporary but very bloody solution.



Conversely, you have people like Gai, who can rip through hundreds of vampires and only the officers might be able to stop. Danzo, who's Izanagi will allow him to ignore any attacks while dishing out damage. Jiraiya, who in sage mode is super-powerful and I doubt normal bullets would do much of anything to him. Also normal bullets definitely won't do anything to his frog summons. Hiasha Hyuga, who's Kaiten creates large craters and sends dozens of people flying, and would be immune to bullets while it's under effect, so he'd be able to wipe out squads pretty easily. Yamato and other Earth specialists who can have the ground beneath them swallow them up. The Nara clan, who can freeze the vampires in place and let genin walk up, take their guns, and slice their heads off. The Yamanaka, who can make them turn on each other.



Hellsing stuff is badass, no doubt, but don't overlook the capabilities of the opposition. The opposition here is around ten thousand superhumans, ranging from merely having high stats to having battlefield shaping abilities and stats in excess of all but a few of the opposition.

Watch the 6th OVA when they pass through the minefield.

In terms of pure movement speed, mebbe. Definately not reaction-wise though. I have seen nothing that suggests that the average jounin is a bullet timer.

Ninja have never dealt with guns, do you really think they're going to know how to react to them? Also, cover can jump off a duck, Panzerfausts >

Explosive tags that the Vampires will easily dodge. Not that they'd do any real harm.

And Millennium is Waffen SS. As in, part of the Wehrmacht, inarguably one of the strongest armies in modern history. And this particular group of Nazis are utterly devoted to war, and are led by a genius who's intellect makes him look like he's right out of Death Note.

Iscariot Priests are people who, well, basically live to kill things like vampires =| Their bullets would have had to been blessed to actually harm the vampires.

Not really. Seras in the second chapter, where Alucard considered her more of a half-human, half-undead creature then more of a vampire, was casually dodging bullets after they'd been fired. If anything, would say that the vampires, who had previously just been tanking bullets shot at them by others, weren't prepared for the Iscariot Priests.

Uh, no they won't dood. Except maybe for very powerful elemental jutsu, vampires will generally be able to tank most of their attacks. Only holy weapons are effective against them.

Not really dood. I demand chunin/jounin strength feats. Average Chunin/Jounin strength feats.

Seras Victoria wasn't actually a real vampire when they were working on her. And about that familiar thing? Yeah, Schrodinger outright says that blood is the currency of the soul for vampires, and all of the vampires in Millennium have drank blood.

Trying to stealth a vampire with the 3rd Eye is kinda funny.

Uh, not really. I have seen few genjutsu outside of top-tiers that really surpasses Zorin, who has large area-of-effect attacks.

And, uh, they do this before a gai who slaps an Awakened Seras around like nothing rips them apart, how?

Again, overestimating Ninja and underestimating vampires. Ninjas do not know how to fight against the awesome power of massed automatic gunfire and artillery. Against beings that each possess advanced regeneration and general immunity to most conventional weapons.

Oh, and uh, if Millennium has their zeppelins, then lol at Konoha.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Apparently damaging jets isn't impressive. They're not armored.

I'm talking about the Blackbird Alucard was driving. It has titanium armor. Rip's bullets tore through it with impunity.

Originally posted by Q99
The average vampire cannot go near mach 2-3. The Wild Geese were able to shoot them when they were hopping over the minefield, heck they would've been able to just run past the mindfield, and the Iscariot priests were able to kill them as well.

They have really good reflexes but they are definitely sub-mach.

The entire minefield was, guess what, filled with mines, and they had to concentrate on jumping over tiny little sticks planted in the ground.


That they did on a very fast pace. : |

How would a full Kyuubi Naruto fair? Just out of curiousity of course, not actually arguing here.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Killer Bee, one of the absolute fastest ninjas in the series, was calced to be about mach 2-3 using his chakra shroud.

So vampires in Hellsing, the average vampire, is faster than nearly every Naruto ninja.

Where was this again?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
How would a full Kyuubi Naruto fair? Just out of curiousity of course, not actually arguing here.



Where was this again?

Uh, Full Kyuubi would prolly wreck them along with the village.

Unless Millennium has their zeppelins. Then I could see them just blowing it up while it can't reach them : D

Don't cha think air vehicles might make this a bit spitey?

And eh, by the threads rules that would mean a win though. Tee hee.

I'd have to say Millenium wins. sure the 100 vampires may not be much compared to the elites of their group (the Captain, Rip Van Winkle, etc), but compared to ninja they're pretty damn fast and strong. and like what was already said, they have guns and the like so that's another advantage. and if the Captain along with the other Millienium elites fight alongside each other instead of doing their own thing, then Konoha is going to go down.

Add another 0 to your 100.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Unless Millennium has their zeppelins. Then I could see them just blowing it up while it can't reach them : D

V1s won't exactly do jack to the Kyuubi shroud.



Yes. If they went mach 2-3, the fact that they were filled with mines would matter jack squat. They'd be gone before the mines detonated, they wouldn't have to jump on knife hilts in the ground. Nor would they be vulnerable to being shot while jumping on said hilts.




Definitely. Just not *that* fast.





In Naruto, people both use and block mach-speed attacks. An average jonin probably travels at near-mach speeds with a body flicker, considering how far we've seen them travel without apparent movement.


Jonin can blitz chunin can blitz genin can blitz normal chakra-less fighters.



Yes? Guns are not exactly complex- they point and make loud noise, people die. They're obviously a deadly jutsu.

Panzerfausts are a lot clumsier and more obvious than the automatic guns, not that hard to avoid, and won't work on all cover like earth-jutsu walls. They reduce the effect of cover a little, but they don't suddenly make cover not a good defense.



Explosives kill vampires dead all the time. See: Mines.



That's actually not too hard to argue... they were pretty good, but they also got all the best equipment.

Anyway, they aren't unique in being good at war in this fight is the point.



The point is, humans were hitting vampires with guns.

The genin are fast enough to fight against them, and a human would not even be near fast enough to hit a jonin with a gun.


Ninja of rank have significantly better offense than guns too, fire works against vamps.



Seras is far beyond the Millennium vamps even before she drinks Pip, she kills like 20 of 'em inside the headquarters.

An unblooded true vampire is still above any of the non-officers by a very noticeable amount.

All the Millennium vamps have drank blood, but they're also fakes, FREAK vampires. They don't get the same benefit a true vampire like Seras does, they don't have familiars.



Not really, it doesn't work on what it doesn't see, as Integra showed.



Kabuto, who's not a genjutsu specialist in the same sense Kurenai is (though admittedly still pretty good, rating of 4 out of 5), sent several hundred people to sleep.

We don't see genjutsu in use as commonly, but dealing with one genjutsu user like Zorin is hardly out of their experience and they do have several people here who are better.




And un-blessed explosives. And fire. And water. And having their heads or bodies destroyed physically.



By having their own most uber people deal with him. Danzo, Kakashi, Jiraiya, etc..


Keep in mind, they outnumber the Vampires ten to one. They can get lots of people ripped up for awhile then have their own super elite take out the vampires super elite, and still win.


They have a lot more elite people. They have a lot more people period. They do have ways to hold up someone stronger than they are until help arrives, and they do have help capable of killing anyone on the vampire side.



They fight other ninja with far more power than a panzerfaust or anything else the vamps have. They fight people who shoot lightning, needles so fast they drill through steel, invisible bullets of air that can kill people without warning, Deidara's homing explosives (one of Konoha's arch enemies has a group called the "Blast Corps" who specially in explosion jutsu, so artillery is not exactly odd to them) etc. etc..

Rapid firing bullets, while nice, is only slightly different than what they've seen before, and it does have some obvious defenses, namely it only works in direct line-of-sight and can be blocked by thick cover, which the ninja both start with and can make more of, and telegraphs where it's going to fire by where the gun's pointed. Some ninja can also get so tough they can ignore gunfire completely..

Conversely, I could say "Vampires don't know how to fight against the awesome power of a huge variety of jutsu."

The ninja have fought against stuff more similar to what the vamps have than vice-versa. There's much more flexibility on the ninja side.


Keep in mind I'm not just assuming the ninja can handle that, I'm noted specific ways they can defend and similar things they've fought before, and comparing the ninja directly to foes the vampires have fought before.

Again, I am not denying that the vampires are very powerful, but it's easy to overlook just how powerful the Ninja are.



In the plot, right now, they are fighting people who can be blown away to the point only their feet remain and regenerate to total strength in seconds.

The vampire's damage resistance is not that impressive in comparison, especially when fire jutsu is one of the most common weapons of Konoha.

The Captain and the Dandy, now they're hard to kill, but as mentioned right now they're fighting foes with similar uber regeneration. And very powerful foes at that.

Kakashi has a move that is literally a space warp. Sucking them into a pseudo-black hole will work on anything Millennium has. Danzo has a move that only requires he touch a foe, then a seal covers them and immobilizes them completely. He also has an irresistible mind control that works even on those normally totally immune to control due to having additional beings in their head to save them.

Jiraiya has the Sage Frog Song that traps someone inside their own mind forever. He also has the "Toad Mouth Bind," wherein he summons someone into a pocket dimension of a toad's stomach and the only known way out involved flames that burn hotter than the sun.

So yes, they have ways of dealing with the Captain and the Dandy. That is five different techniques that'll work, and that's not even a complete list.





We don't see a ton of pure strength type feats, but here is *Genin* Sasuke one-shotting a 50 foot bear with a kick.

By the databooks, he has a strength rating of 2 at the time, though I suspect he *may* have been up near 2.5. Iruka has a 2.5. Obito, who was promoted to chunin only because it was war time, has a 2.

Genin Kiba's physical attacks can drill through stone (here, several feet deep and wider than he is), and he's a 2.5. Somewhat exceptional genin rather than chunin, but these aren't even the strongest genin, Sasuke is definitely not known for his brute strength.

Shizune, the *medic* Jonin, has a 2.5.


By the way, there's practically no such thing as an 'average' Jonin. Practically every single one we've seen has been a named character with major jutsu.

This is a jutsu done by a barely-shows-up enemy Jonin from Stone. That is, in case you can't tell, a hundred-foot pillar of rock erupting in an explosion.


What makes a Jonin jonin level varies, some are more obvious than others, but the mook jonin is something that very much doesn't exist in the anime, even the smaller scale ones are super-good at something, and many of them have mass destruction like that.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Don't cha think air vehicles might make this a bit spitey?


Not too much. They're slow, obvious, easily destroyed big targets. They aren't helicarriers, they're unarmored vehicles that are mostly gas.



Give 'em to the giant frogs You'd end up with a lot of downed Zeppelins and crushed vampires.


They would up the collateral, but V-1s aren't precision so ninja casualties should be low, and the elites of the ninja should be largely untouched.



People seem to be overlooking the Ninja's capacity for mass, wide-scale destruction, which has been amply demonstrated.

Originally posted by Q99
Not too much. They're slow, obvious, easily destroyed big targets. They aren't helicarriers, they're unarmored vehicles that are mostly gas.



Give 'em to the giant frogs You'd end up with a lot of downed Zeppelins and crushed vampires.


They would up the collateral, but V-1s aren't precision so ninja casualties should be low, and the elites of the ninja should be largely untouched.



People seem to be overlooking the Ninja's capacity for mass, wide-scale destruction, which has been amply demonstrated.


Uh, dun know what bullshit this is, but you're pretty wrong dood.

It took Seras quite a while for her guns, which pack moar power then pretty much anything most of the ninjas have, to down Zorin Blitz's zeppelin. Not to mention how the Frogs won't be touching them. And be dead.

No, watch them attacking London. They pretty much spammed missiles everywhere. Ninjas will die.

They generally can't do that mass destruction without wrecking their own shit though.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer

It took Seras quite a while for her guns, which pack moar power then pretty much anything most of the ninjas have, to down Zorin Blitz's zeppelin.

*Checks manga* Lesse, bullets go through Zeppelin 'like paper,' then the first time they're hit by explosives, they blow up. Because they're filled with hydrogen, which ignites.

The only reason it took time was because Seras opened up with solid bullets, and even then not very much time, they were coming apart.



V-1s can't track them, they're random barrage weapons, and the frogs are tough enough to take a few hits. Anything else, including Rip's gun, isn't strong enough.

There doesn't seem to be anything stopping the frogs from leaping up and slicing them apart or using one of their ranged jutsu or weapons.


Btw, in a non-airship scenario, how's Millennium supposed to deal with the giant summons? Frogs that can jump a quarter mile, smash formations, ignore gunfire, launch giant fireballs, be stung by panzer fausts, and go right to where a Hyuga points out Rip is and crush her.

I could see the Captain being capable of taking a summon down, but we're likely to see at least five giant summons present, maybe more.

For that matter, members of the Akimichi clan'll be immune to gunfire too while giant.




Ok.

*Checks manga*

Hm, looks here like they had to get multiple blimps directly over the targets before they began. Explosions, while large in number, were individually pretty small and a lot more buildings remained intact than not. Sowed a lot of chaos and confusion.



Oh, sure, there will definitely be casualties. Enough to significantly reduce the ninja forces? I'm not so sure. And that is assuming they can get it off, airships are not fast and the range of their bombardment was not super-long.

I'll grant that the odds shift much more in favor of Millennium if there's a successful bombardment, but as long as most of the high-ranked ninja are alive, then victory is still quite possible.

Originally posted by Q99
V1s won't exactly do jack to the Kyuubi shroud.



Yes. If they went mach 2-3, the fact that they were filled with mines would matter jack squat. They'd be gone before the mines detonated, they wouldn't have to jump on knife hilts in the ground. Nor would they be vulnerable to being shot while jumping on said hilts.




Definitely. Just not *that* fast.





In Naruto, people both use and block mach-speed attacks. An average jonin probably travels at near-mach speeds with a body flicker, considering how far we've seen them travel without apparent movement.


Jonin can blitz chunin can blitz genin can blitz normal chakra-less fighters.



Yes? Guns are not exactly complex- they point and make loud noise, people die. They're obviously a deadly jutsu.

Panzerfausts are a lot clumsier and more obvious than the automatic guns, not that hard to avoid, and won't work on all cover like earth-jutsu walls. They reduce the effect of cover a little, but they don't suddenly make cover not a good defense.



Explosives kill vampires dead all the time. See: Mines.



That's actually not too hard to argue... they were pretty good, but they also got all the best equipment.

Anyway, they aren't unique in being good at war in this fight is the point.



The point is, humans were hitting vampires with guns.

The genin are fast enough to fight against them, and a human would not even be near fast enough to hit a jonin with a gun.


Ninja of rank have significantly better offense than guns too, fire works against vamps.



Seras is far beyond the Millennium vamps even before she drinks Pip, she kills like 20 of 'em inside the headquarters.

An unblooded true vampire is still above any of the non-officers by a very noticeable amount.

All the Millennium vamps have drank blood, but they're also fakes, FREAK vampires. They don't get the same benefit a true vampire like Seras does, they don't have familiars.



Not really, it doesn't work on what it doesn't see, as Integra showed.



Kabuto, who's not a genjutsu specialist in the same sense Kurenai is (though admittedly still pretty good, rating of 4 out of 5), sent several hundred people to sleep.

We don't see genjutsu in use as commonly, but dealing with one genjutsu user like Zorin is hardly out of their experience and they do have several people here who are better.




And un-blessed explosives. And fire. And water. And having their heads or bodies destroyed physically.



By having their own most uber people deal with him. Danzo, Kakashi, Jiraiya, etc..


Keep in mind, they outnumber the Vampires ten to one. They can get lots of people ripped up for awhile then have their own super elite take out the vampires super elite, and still win.


They have a lot more elite people. They have a lot more people period. They do have ways to hold up someone stronger than they are until help arrives, and they do have help capable of killing anyone on the vampire side.



They fight other ninja with far more power than a panzerfaust or anything else the vamps have. They fight people who shoot lightning, needles so fast they drill through steel, invisible bullets of air that can kill people without warning, Deidara's homing explosives (one of Konoha's arch enemies has a group called the "Blast Corps" who specially in explosion jutsu, so artillery is not exactly odd to them) etc. etc..

Rapid firing bullets, while nice, is only slightly different than what they've seen before, and it does have some obvious defenses, namely it only works in direct line-of-sight and can be blocked by thick cover, which the ninja both start with and can make more of, and telegraphs where it's going to fire by where the gun's pointed. Some ninja can also get so tough they can ignore gunfire completely..

Conversely, I could say "Vampires don't know how to fight against the awesome power of a huge variety of jutsu."

The ninja have fought against stuff more similar to what the vamps have than vice-versa. There's much more flexibility on the ninja side.


Keep in mind I'm not just assuming the ninja can handle that, I'm noted specific ways they can defend and similar things they've fought before, and comparing the ninja directly to foes the vampires have fought before.

Again, I am not denying that the vampires are very powerful, but it's easy to overlook just how powerful the Ninja are.



In the plot, right now, they are fighting people who can be blown away to the point only their feet remain and regenerate to total strength in seconds.

The vampire's damage resistance is not that impressive in comparison, especially when fire jutsu is one of the most common weapons of Konoha.

The Captain and the Dandy, now they're hard to kill, but as mentioned right now they're fighting foes with similar uber regeneration. And very powerful foes at that.

Kakashi has a move that is literally a space warp. Sucking them into a pseudo-black hole will work on anything Millennium has. Danzo has a move that only requires he touch a foe, then a seal covers them and immobilizes them completely. He also has an irresistible mind control that works even on those normally totally immune to control due to having additional beings in their head to save them.

Jiraiya has the Sage Frog Song that traps someone inside their own mind forever. He also has the "Toad Mouth Bind," wherein he summons someone into a pocket dimension of a toad's stomach and the only known way out involved flames that burn hotter than the sun.

So yes, they have ways of dealing with the Captain and the Dandy. That is five different techniques that'll work, and that's not even a complete list.





We don't see a ton of pure strength type feats, but here is *Genin* Sasuke one-shotting a 50 foot bear with a kick.

By the databooks, he has a strength rating of 2 at the time, though I suspect he *may* have been up near 2.5. Iruka has a 2.5. Obito, who was promoted to chunin only because it was war time, has a 2.

Genin Kiba's physical attacks can drill through stone (here, several feet deep and wider than he is), and he's a 2.5. Somewhat exceptional genin rather than chunin, but these aren't even the strongest genin, Sasuke is definitely not known for his brute strength.

Shizune, the *medic* Jonin, has a 2.5.


By the way, there's practically no such thing as an 'average' Jonin. Practically every single one we've seen has been a named character with major jutsu.

This is a jutsu done by a barely-shows-up enemy Jonin from Stone. That is, in case you can't tell, a hundred-foot pillar of rock erupting in an explosion.


What makes a Jonin jonin level varies, some are more obvious than others, but the mook jonin is something that very much doesn't exist in the anime, even the smaller scale ones are super-good at something, and many of them have mass destruction like that.

But at sufficient altitudes, would argue that Kyuubi couldn't do anything to zeppelins. But whatever.

Kay.

No, they don't. Show me average ninjas reacting to mach speeds, please.

And, uh, automatic guns do this at an incredibly fast rate and fires bullets faster then they can react and will rip you to shreds. And an entire army possesses them. Ninjas have never dealt with that before dood.

Mines with blessed ammo dood.

Above peak humans were shooting at them that generally are implied as being bullet timers themselves, and the vampires were being overconfident, considering they were previously dominating London a few minutes earlier.

No. They aren't. And if Genin DID fight against them, they would be ripped to shreds. Try again.

No, you're not listening dood. Seras as of the 2nd chapter was considered garbage by Alucard. As of the 2nd chapter, her powers hadn't even kicked in yet. Normal Vampires > 2nd Chapter Seras.

No, FREAKS belong soley to the TV show, I'm pretty sure. And no, show me proof that familiars extend only to Alucard and Seras.

Blatant PIS is blatant. Not that Integra is an ordinary human in the first place.

Kay. Several hundred people caught unawares, but kay. Show me the average genjutsu user wielding illusions on par with Zorin's please. And not working off assumptions of other characters.

Why exactly do you think the mines were un-blessed? =|
Especially considering that it is stated over and over again that holy weapons are the only means of stopping a vampire's regeneration. And bring me up one vampire of Hellsing dying due to water. And iirc they pretty much ran through fire and bullshit like that, but it's not like fire is going to be much of a threat anyway.

Databook = Non-canon.
And why do you assume that the Captain is going to be on his lonesome and without any help? You do realize Rip's bullets will be pretty much killing Elites off left and right, right?

Not really do. Named characters in Naruto are pretty alright, but the average joes of Naruto are largely featless. Furthermore, the ninjas have never confronted an enemy like Millennium. An enemy where every being has faster reactions then them, shoots things faster then they can react, and can regenerate from wounds.

Fire jutsu won't really do anything to bullet timers dood. You throw a fireball at them, they'll just dodge it.

Currently =/= Shippuuden at start.

Vampires generally maintain their smiles whilst getting shot. In the head as well as their body.

What foes in Konoha possess this uber regeneration?

And they both possess no resistance to Rip's magic bullet. Yay.

Amaterasu does not burn hotter then the sun, and nor is he immune to Rip's bullets either.

Just like there are loads of ways of dealing with Konoha's top guns.
Mass Destruction wrecks their own soldiers aswell

Originally posted by Q99
*Checks manga* Lesse, bullets go through Zeppelin 'like paper,' then the first time they're hit by explosives, they blow up. Because they're filled with hydrogen, which ignites.

The only reason it took time was because Seras opened up with solid bullets, and even then not very much time, they were coming apart.



V-1s can't track them, they're random barrage weapons, and the frogs are tough enough to take a few hits. Anything else, including Rip's gun, isn't strong enough.

There doesn't seem to be anything stopping the frogs from leaping up and slicing them apart or using one of their ranged jutsu or weapons.


Btw, in a non-airship scenario, how's Millennium supposed to deal with the giant summons? Frogs that can jump a quarter mile, smash formations, ignore gunfire, launch giant fireballs, be stung by panzer fausts, and go right to where a Hyuga points out Rip is and crush her.

I could see the Captain being capable of taking a summon down, but we're likely to see at least five giant summons present, maybe more.

For that matter, members of the Akimichi clan'll be immune to gunfire too while giant.




Ok.

*Checks manga*

Hm, looks here like they had to get multiple blimps directly over the targets before they began. Explosions, while large in number, were individually pretty small and a lot more buildings remained intact than not. Sowed a lot of chaos and confusion.



Oh, sure, there will definitely be casualties. Enough to significantly reduce the ninja forces? I'm not so sure. And that is assuming they can get it off, airships are not fast and the range of their bombardment was not super-long.

I'll grant that the odds shift much more in favor of Millennium if there's a successful bombardment, but as long as most of the high-ranked ninja are alive, then victory is still quite possible.

Show scans or it didn't happen.

V-1 rockets aren't meant to track them dood. They're spam weapons =| Watch the attack on London again. They were levelling that city. And incase you don't know, London is quite bigger then Konoha.

Frogs will take some delicious missiles. And die. kthx.

By Loling as they kill Ninjas too. Mass Destruction is funny.

They were over London dood. London is a big city. BIG BIG city.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Show scans or it didn't happen.


One page of firing

Next page has it talk about taking out the engines, shows people being blow up, etc. etc.. Page after that says 'like paper'.

Few pages of falling and Seras getting out the explosives. BOOM, big explosion there, the thing breaks in half right then and there.



Yea, they don't track and the frogs have great mobility, the frogs can get out of the way (and are big enough to take a few hits and keep ticking). Like you say, they're spam weapons, they aren't good at targets that can get out of the way.

And in a scenario without Zeppelin bombardment? How are they going to kill them then? Panzerfausts are not going to do against an enemy that big.



Yes, and the area they were destroying with bombardment was the part practically directly under them. Aka shoot-down ville against anti-air defenses.



Once again I'll point out the Ninja's ability to produce large destruction too, inside the enemy formations, of which scans have been provided.


I'm getting a lot of "vampires will wipe them out," from you, but less on how they're going to deal with specific major threats. It's not like killing mook ninja will grant a win.

Originally posted by Q99
One page of firing

Next page has it talk about taking out the engines, shows people being blow up, etc. etc.. Page after that says 'like paper'.

Few pages of falling and Seras getting out the explosives. BOOM, big explosion there, the thing breaks in half right then and there.



Yea, they don't track and the frogs have great mobility, the frogs can get out of the way (and are big enough to take a few hits and keep ticking). Like you say, they're spam weapons, they aren't good at targets that can get out of the way.

And in a scenario without Zeppelin bombardment? How are they going to kill them then? Panzerfausts are not going to do against an enemy that big.



Yes, and the area they were destroying with bombardment was the part practically directly under them. Aka shoot-down ville against anti-air defenses.



Once again I'll point out the Ninja's ability to produce large destruction too, inside the enemy formations, of which scans have been provided.


I'm getting a lot of "vampires will wipe them out," from you, but less on how they're going to deal with specific major threats. It's not like killing mook ninja will grant a win.

So, turning their airships into what are essentially giant firebombs while over Konoha is an excellent idea, right?

While in the air?

Uh, I would honestly say that Rip van Winkle is very much capable of killing even the frog summons. There isn't much that can really take her bullets, and once inside them, the bullets will pretty much rip them apart from the inside.

It would be some kewl tactics to split up into squads to avoid getting romped all at once. And pretty sure Mass Destruction can backfire on the ninjas.

Because mook vampires can kill most mook ninjas up to jounins without too much difficulty. I mean, if chunin are people like Iruka, then lol. Granted, though, the mook vampires aren't what's going to win the much. Rip van Winkle pretty much will =|. There are, liek, no people on the Konoha side that can really handle her bullets. Because of the distance of her weapon, she doesn't even need to engage in combat with Konoha's elite. In terms of actual combat, The Captain and the Dandy Man are both a match for most of what Konoha has to offer, with only people like Danzo and Kakashi posing a threat to them. Luke and Zorin though are prolly ineffectual to most of the elite, so would prolly be moar geared towards mooks.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Killer Bee, one of the absolute fastest ninjas in the series, was calced to be about mach 2-3 using his chakra shroud.

So vampires in Hellsing, the average vampire, is faster than nearly every Naruto ninja.

Don't use the naruto Forums so called speed calculations. I've lurked there a few times, and those mofo's are biased has toward Naruto.

No they're not. They're biased against Naruto if anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No they're not. They're biased against Naruto if anything.

I worded wrong.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
So, turning their airships into what are essentially giant firebombs while over Konoha is an excellent idea, right?

While in the air?

No, you take them down before they're overhead. Why wait until they're close?



Not really, she didn't face a single target with armor or durability near that of a summon. Just jets, helicopters, and missiles.

Every thing she hit had near tissue paper for armor, it has no demonstrated AP capacity. It's a multi-mach lead slug, but that's not enough to put down a target that big, like a .22 against an elephant.




It can backfire in the sense of increasing ninja casualties, but if they do it, they'll still win.




No, pretty much every jonin we've seen would kill many vampires, the better ones a whole lot.

Mook vampires can kill genin easily, though numbers can still take them down. Chunin, that's a lot closer. Special Jonin or stronger ANBU? That's a different story (here is a single ANBU lighting blasting a hundred-foot summon. Imagine a squad of vampires in there. Or that ANBU's partner, who does this to then crush it. And these guys don't have *names*, they're just part of the response force).

Jonin, definite advantage to the jonin. Jonin often have the firepower to take down dozens to hundreds.


And, keep in mind, the ninja outnumber them 10:1, before getting into stuff like Naruto's dopplegangers who can in themselves be made one for every vampire, or Tsunade's ability to heal everyone in the village from even deadly wounds. They don't need to individually be matches.



Iruka really hasn't been shown much in combat at all. One of the exam proctor chunin speedblitzed a genin and travelled across a room and slammed him to the other side, carrying him with one arm, in an eyeblink.

Here / here

Mook vampires don't have foot speed like that.




Sage Jiraiya, all the summons, Danzo, anyone who can avoid her notice (and the vampire third eye only works on what they can *see*), Tsunade depending on how bad/often she's hit (a missing lung won't stop her, and high level ninja in general are very tough and hard to hurt, even Kakashi takes hits that'd turn an ordinary human into a smear), every member of Choji's clan that goes giant, Kyuubi Naruto, anyone with a jutsu like stone-armor covering (like Yamato's wood), and then there's the option of distracting shots with clones.

And someone like Gai might be fast and strong enough to *catch* the bullet.




Yea, that's the deal.

The Vampires have three big threats- Rip, Captain, Dandy, in approximately that order.

And two moderate threats.


The ninja have around 10 big threats-
Jiraiya
Danzo
Kakashi
Gai
Tsunade
Choza

Katsuyu
The three giant toads
Baku (Danzo's summon)

Plus dozens of moderates- Yamato, Hiashi (who can create blasts of chakra that make craters and send dozens of foes flying when he spins. Neji can likely do close to similar now), Asuma, Kurenai, those ANBU with their big jutsu, Anko (who can summon giant snakes- not boss summon huge, but big enough to shrug assault rifle fire and kill mook vamps), Ibiki, most Nara clan members (shadow trap- stops the movement of entire squads, thus making them totally vulnerable to genin sticking explosive tags on them, or having the Nara make them pull the pins on their own grenades), Rock Lee, and any other jonin and most special jonin and ANBU. All of them have high-area and/or high speed attacks.


Defining 'big threat' as "any ninja capable of killing at least a hundred mook vampires or the enemy elites," and moderate as "any ninja capable of killing at least a dozen mook vampires."



As well as special cases like Yamanaka- If the Captain stands still for two seconds, possibly not by choice due to a Nara, then Ino's dad may be in his head and turn that body to start slaughtering vampires. Heck, Fu can get a similar result if the Captain simply kills his dummy.

Think about how things go if The Dandy and the Captain both suddenly start ripping up Vampire lines.



Then probably around a thousand chunin who are "not big threats, but not helpless either, and can hold their own," and several thousand Genin who are "while screwed on their own, can hold up vamps, sometimes win in groups, or kill vampires who are preoccupied with tougher threats."

Originally posted by Q99
No, you take them down before they're overhead. Why wait until they're close?



Not really, she didn't face a single target with armor or durability near that of a summon. Just jets, helicopters, and missiles.

Every thing she hit had near tissue paper for armor, it has no demonstrated AP capacity. It's a multi-mach lead slug, but that's not enough to put down a target that big, like a .22 against an elephant.




It can backfire in the sense of increasing ninja casualties, but if they do it, they'll still win.


Kay.

No, pretty much every jonin we've seen would kill many vampires, the better ones a whole lot.

Mook vampires can kill genin easily, though numbers can still take them down. Chunin, that's a lot closer. Special Jonin or stronger ANBU? That's a different story (here is a single ANBU lighting blasting a hundred-foot summon. Imagine a squad of vampires in there. Or that ANBU's partner, who does this to then crush it. And these guys don't have *names*, they're just part of the response force).

Jonin, definite advantage to the jonin. Jonin often have the firepower to take down dozens to hundreds.


And, keep in mind, the ninja outnumber them 10:1, before getting into stuff like Naruto's dopplegangers who can in themselves be made one for every vampire, or Tsunade's ability to heal everyone in the village from even deadly wounds. They don't need to individually be matches.



Iruka really hasn't been shown much in combat at all. One of the exam proctor chunin speedblitzed a genin and travelled across a room and slammed him to the other side, carrying him with one arm, in an eyeblink.

Here / here

Mook vampires don't have foot speed like that.




Sage Jiraiya, all the summons, Danzo, anyone who can avoid her notice (and the vampire third eye only works on what they can *see*), Tsunade depending on how bad/often she's hit (a missing lung won't stop her, and high level ninja in general are very tough and hard to hurt, even Kakashi takes hits that'd turn an ordinary human into a smear), every member of Choji's clan that goes giant, Kyuubi Naruto, anyone with a jutsu like stone-armor covering (like Yamato's wood), and then there's the option of distracting shots with clones.

And someone like Gai might be fast and strong enough to *catch* the bullet.




Yea, that's the deal.

The Vampires have three big threats- Rip, Captain, Dandy, in approximately that order.

And two moderate threats.


The ninja have around 10 big threats-
Jiraiya
Danzo
Kakashi
Gai
Tsunade
Choza

Katsuyu
The three giant toads
Baku (Danzo's summon)

Plus dozens of moderates- Yamato, Hiashi (who can create blasts of chakra that make craters and send dozens of foes flying when he spins. Neji can likely do close to similar now), Asuma, Kurenai, those ANBU with their big jutsu, Anko (who can summon giant snakes- not boss summon huge, but big enough to shrug assault rifle fire and kill mook vamps), Ibiki, most Nara clan members (shadow trap- stops the movement of entire squads, thus making them totally vulnerable to genin sticking explosive tags on them, or having the Nara make them pull the pins on their own grenades), Rock Lee, and any other jonin and most special jonin and ANBU. All of them have high-area and/or high speed attacks.


Defining 'big threat' as "any ninja capable of killing at least a hundred mook vampires or the enemy elites," and moderate as "any ninja capable of killing at least a dozen mook vampires."



As well as special cases like Yamanaka- If the Captain stands still for two seconds, possibly not by choice due to a Nara, then Ino's dad may be in his head and turn that body to start slaughtering vampires. Heck, Fu can get a similar result if the Captain simply kills his dummy.

Think about how things go if The Dandy and the Captain both suddenly start ripping up Vampire lines.



Then probably around a thousand chunin who are "not big threats, but not helpless either, and can hold their own," and several thousand Genin who are "while screwed on their own, can hold up vamps, sometimes win in groups, or kill vampires who are preoccupied with tougher threats."

Because, uh, they wouldn't attack until they're up close?

Alucard's blackbird was armored with titanium.

Given its speed, it would rip large target's organs apart.

Of course, not factoring in the vampire's speed to react, of course.

See "Vampires leaping onto daggers"

Most of those except maybe Kyuubi Naruto and Sage Jiraya, uh, won't really be tanking Rip's bullets dude.

Too lazy right nao to come up with a comeback for that.

Are there any actual approximate numbers of the number of ninja at the time of Shippudden start?

If it weren't for the fact that Zorin and Rip are working together, I'd actually give the win to Konaha thanks to Gai and Kakashi. However since they are together we have the following scenario.

Mass illusion + magic bullets that don't miss+ vampire grunts= bunch of dead ninjas.

The Captain would handle the higher tier ninja and might get to Tsunade if he's lucky enough. If Konoha gets Jiraiya, this whole plan's blown to hell though.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Because, uh, they wouldn't attack until they're up close?


Why would the ninja wait for them to open fire?



The copy of the manga I have doesn't say anything like that, and even if it was you can't mount heavy armor on a plane like that, period. If it had a quarter-inch of armor I'd be surprised.



No, it wouldn't. It is a tiny tiny bullet compared to the summons.

A .22 to an Elephant doesn't work, and the scale of a .22 to an elephant is closer than the musket ball to a summon.

Keep in mind, 10 feet of penetration here is going to be useless. Then the bullet's stuck. Then, well, game over.




Nah, factoring that in. That's why they're at as high a threat as they are and able to beat genin so well.



Exactly, that's slower than the Chunin's blitz.


Compared to a chunin, the vampire's got higher reaction but lower foot speed.



Danzo won't, he'll be Izanagi.

And the giants won't for size reasons.




Don't underestimate high-level ninja toughness. Take a look at the damage Kakashi does being kicked through stone and giant trees. He's moderately injured (but suffers no broken bones) by an attack greater than what Seras did to Zorin. Then he took this explosions right after and still was in fighting shape.

Anyone who has a strong defensive ability on top of this will have greater resilience than anything the bullet damaged.




The Ninja Alliance has 80,000 ninja.

It's made of the Five Villages, plus the Samurai of the Land of Iron. Of these, Konoha has the largest population.

10k for it's entire ninja strength is conservative. 15k or even 20k is quite possible.

A whole lot of them are going to be genin that spend most of their time on minor assignments, but they've got significant forces. I'd guess 1k chunin or higher, 100~150 special jonin or higher.




She's never affected more than a relatively small number though, and the ninja have illusions too, as well as illusion-breaking training (Zorin's general-effect illusion was easy for Seras to break, it's only her individual illusion that was hard. And, interestingly, illusion breaking works pretty much identically between the two).

Zorin's nice, but there's only one of her, she's not that tough, and the ninja have training against this kind of thing. A handful of ANBU could take her out.





Jiraiya is active in this time frame.

I'm too lazy to continuing giving a shit about this.

Therefore, I concede since this is becoming tl;dr


Will just point out though if Millennium had Vampire Walter, would stomp uhuh