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Depowered Tyrant

No forgetting powers or abilities.

Void should win.

A non jobbing molecule man should win

Originally posted by McNasty996
A non jobbing molecule man should win

Will, theres no PIS here.

Molecule Man absolutely stomps here.

MM stomps them both.

based on latest showings.. Tryant wins with ease

If we take Void's fight with MM to face value he can at the very least repel Owen's attempts to warp him. That said, Molecule Man should beat him really easily by using his abilities to deal with him using collateral damage.

MM solos the field.

Owen with ease.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Void should win. No way in hell.

I haven't seen a thing that would let him take on a skyfather, let alone the Molecule Man.

Molecule Man.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No way in hell.

I haven't seen a thing that would let him take on a skyfather, let alone the Molecule Man. Apart from killing Molecule Man you mean ka-dur

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No way in hell.

I haven't seen a thing that would let him take on a skyfather, let alone the Molecule Man.

IF, and I say if he killed MM, that's a bullshit feat. Unless Molecule Man was depowered, that's outright jobbing and PIS.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
IF, and I say if he killed MM, that's a bullshit feat. Unless Molecule Man was depowered, that's outright jobbing and PIS. So it doesn't count because you say so.

It doesn't count because Molecule Man has fought the Beyonder and is possibly more powerful than the IG. Would you count a page showing Galactus being killed by Wolverine as legitimate?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
It doesn't count because Molecule Man has fought the Beyonder and is possibly more powerful than the IG. Would you count a page showing Galactus being killed by Wolverine as legitimate? Sentry acquired new powers that were above MM's powers. MM absorbed him and then completely destroyed him. This didn't hold kosher as the Void/Sentry overpowered him at his own game after discovering he possessed these powers. Prior to MM marveled at him.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Void should win. I don't get it

Scan of this MM vs Void fight?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No way in hell.

I haven't seen a thing that would let him take on a skyfather, let alone the Molecule Man.
Except for the obvious, you mean?

Scans please?

Originally posted by "Id"
Dark Avengers #10
Sentry Vs. Molecule Man
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/7721/darkavengers010pg17.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8117/darkavengers010pg18.jpg
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/7295/darkavengers010pg19.jpg

Dark Avengers #11
Sentry Vs. Molecule Man (continued)
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4159/img811u.jpg
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4184/img812.jpg

Dark Avengers #12
Sentry/Void Vs. Molecule Man (concluded)
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3079/darkavengers12009.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2104/darkavengers12010.jpg
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2779/darkavengers1201112.jpg
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3505/darkavengers12013.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9599/darkavengers12014.jpg
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7697/darkavengers12015.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8119/darkavengers12016.jpg
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5949/darkavengers12017.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/422/darkavengers1201819.jpg

You know what people overlook about the Void/Molecule Man fight? In that issue, he stated Daken was difficult to kill because of his healing factor or some such. That was basically all the evidence I needed to come to the conclusion he was watered down.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You know what people overlook about the Void/Molecule Man fight? In that issue, he stated Daken was difficult to kill because of his healing factor or some such. That was basically all the evidence I needed to come to the conclusion he was watered down.
Oh come on. When do we start arbitrarily deciding that when characters have "bad showings" they must have just been weaker than when they had good ones? There's a lot of dumb moments in comics but i've never heard people say stuff like "well of course hulk didn't put down wolverine; he must have been weak that issue!"

Huh. Ok, Void is clearly abit stronger than I thought. You got scans of the Siege fight? I'm still going to say Molecule Man jobbed though. Void is definitely looking trans-ish there.

Edit: If MM said that about Daken, that's kinda bs right there.

what has post retcon molecule man done other then fighting void in dark avengers series.

That is something like the Superboy Prime And Mxy thing. Prime had Mxy held but needed Mxy to put everything back. That shows pretty much that Own was more powerful than Sentry. Anyone who can beat MM can pretty much put everything back on their own.

Good point. He is powerful, but he's not more than tran-ish based on that. Prime had insane feats to go with the mxy part anyway.

I would like more scans please. Thanks Kandy.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You know what people overlook about the Void/Molecule Man fight? In that issue, he stated Daken was difficult to kill because of his healing factor or some such. That was basically all the evidence I needed to come to the conclusion he was watered down. Are you serious ? That would be like saying Thor is less durable when a bullet pierces him. This can be played both ways are you sure you wanna do this, rage ?

Originally posted by Comics Queen
That is something like the Superboy Prime And Mxy thing. Prime had Mxy held but needed Mxy to put everything back. That shows pretty much that Own was more powerful than Sentry. Anyone who can beat MM can pretty much put everything back on their own.
They said explicitly in the comic that it was only because Owen was more experienced. You can't just make up other reasons.

Originally posted by MrMind
what has post retcon molecule man done other then fighting void in dark avengers series.
Kicked Kosmos's ass and pulled the Beyonder's essence from her, in a fight that was warping the multiverse.

Originally posted by King Kandy
They said explicitly in the comic that it was only because Owen was more experienced. You can't just make up other reasons. If Owen was more experienced then why didn't he just beat the Void?

Originally posted by Comics Queen
If Owen was more experienced then why didn't he just beat the Void?
Because Void was more powerful. His control was capable of overpowering Owens. He just couldn't do intricate manipulations.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because Void was more powerful. His control was capable of overpowering Owens. He just couldn't do intricate manipulations. Void more powerful? So then Void got beaten by Thor right? So Thor>Molecule Man? No.

Originally posted by Comics Queen
Void more powerful? So then Void got beaten by Thor right? So Thor>Molecule Man? No.
No he didn't get "beaten" by Thor. He allowed Thor to kill him, because he wanted to die.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No he didn't get "beaten" by Thor. He allowed Thor to kill him, because he wanted to die. So if Superman wanted to Die, could he allow Batman to kill him with no kryptonite?

Originally posted by Comics Queen
So if Superman wanted to Die, could he allow Batman to kill him with no kryptonite? Different characters, etc. Thor was powerful enough to destroy his body but Void can come back when he wants to and has proven so.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Different characters, etc. Thor was powerful enough to destroy his body but Void can come back when he wants to and has proven so. Then the point is still proven. Thor was powerful enough to destroy his body. That was the point. Weather Void is immortal or not is no concern. There are many immortal beings. That doesn't make them more powerful than Molecule Man.

Originally posted by Comics Queen
Then the point is still proven. Thor was powerful enough to destroy his body. That was the point. Weather Void is immortal or not is no concern. There are many immortal beings. That doesn't make them more powerful than Molecule Man. His showing against the MM shows him as more powerful. One writer tackled these two and showed Void clearly outclassed him. Void's durability clearly changes he's even screwed with his wife before and had his head shot off. The point is the writer agreed the only reason the Void didn't return was because he didn't want to so if Void actively wants to kill Thor there he comes right back and continues his assault.

He also demanded he kill him and forced Thor to do so.

He was stunned by a helicarrier enough for Reynolds to reassert control. Molecule Man jobbed.

The Owen in Dark Avengers was watered down.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The Owen in Dark Avengers was watered down. Based on what ?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
It doesn't count because Molecule Man has fought the Beyonder and is possibly more powerful than the IG. Would you count a page showing Galactus being killed by Wolverine as legitimate?

MM lost to the combined forces of a depowered Ben Grimm and Ted Sallis

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He was stunned by a helicarrier enough for Reynolds to reassert control. Molecule Man jobbed. So ? He has overlapping personalities and he had to lose so this is the reason they came up with it wasn't that anyone had the power it was consistent with the past. Void only loses when he decides to go away.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He was stunned by a helicarrier enough for Reynolds to reassert control. Molecule Man jobbed.
or maybe he jobbed to the helicarrier.

Originally posted by Comics Queen
So if Superman wanted to Die, could he allow Batman to kill him with no kryptonite?
Sentry gets destroyed all the time, he just instantly regenerates... in this case, Thor killed him and he decided not to come back.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Sentry gets destroyed all the time, he just instantly regenerates... in this case, Thor killed him and he decided not to come back.

i dont see whats so hard to get...its plan as day

Originally posted by bbrem123
i dont see whats so hard to get...its plan as day

Sentry hatred is too strong in this forum..it cloud their judgement..

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You know what people overlook about the Void/Molecule Man fight? In that issue, he stated Daken was difficult to kill because of his healing factor or some such. That was basically all the evidence I needed to come to the conclusion he was watered down. That's all the evidence I need to know no one is touching Tyrant.

Unless it's, you know the powerful Molecule Man.

Originally posted by King Kandy
or maybe he jobbed to the helicarrier.

Nah, it's in character for him.

Molecule Man wins. That DA MM was watered down. MM was more powerful than Beyonder. Ever seen Void through planets around? A non-jobbing MM would just reach back in time and kill Bob before he even had a chance to become the Void/Sentry.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Nah, it's in character for him.

Molecule Man wins. That DA MM was watered down. MM was more powerful than Beyonder. Ever seen Void through planets around? A non-jobbing MM would just reach back in time and kill Bob before he even had a chance to become the Void/Sentry.
Just to be curious, if the writers honestly wanted to empower Sentry to MM's level, how do you think they should go about introducing this? Since obviously the way they did so, is not a way you will accept. I mean you're deliberately claiming that the writers were just wrong in stating and showing Sentry to have that ability. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

Meh, on panel Sentry pwned MM. That's good enough for me.

Now it comes down to Sentry/Void vs Tyrant and I think Tyrant takes the majority.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I mean you're deliberately claiming that the writers were just wrong in stating and showing Sentry to have that ability. Do you realize how silly that sounds? Good point. Black Panther has the ability to armbar heralds.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Good point. Black Panther has the ability to armbar heralds. That's not to say all writers are always justified but in this instance the writer clearly defined the Void's powers as greater than MM's. Void's powers are so plot devicey hard to keep the man down.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Good point. Black Panther has the ability to armbar heralds.
If the writers had said "this occurred because BP just manifested his latent power that is >>> surfers", then yes i would accept it. It would be stupid but one would hope people would understand it for what it was, an attempt to place the character on a higher level of power.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Good point. Black Panther has the ability to armbar heralds.

Wasn't SS depowered severely? It's like saying Darkseid has a weakness vs stairs without taking context into consideration.

Originally posted by zopzop
Wasn't SS depowered severely? It's like saying Darkseid has a weakness vs stairs without taking context into consideration. No.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If the writers had said "this occurred because BP just manifested his latent power that is >>> surfers", then yes i would accept it. It would be stupid but one would hope people would understand it for what it was, an attempt to place the character on a higher level of power. What if the writer explains just why exactly it happened? Seems reasonable to me, BP is a master of leverage, no?

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
What if the writer explains just why exactly it happened? Seems reasonable to me, BP is a master of leverage, no?
Well if there aren't any contradictory showings, then that's fine.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
No.

You sure? Oh well I could have sworn I read that on this very forum.

Anyway, the Sentry/MM fight spanned multiple issues. MM owned him then he came back and pwned MM. Turnabout is fair play and all that.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well if there aren't any contradictory showings, then that's fine. I've never seen BP fail to kimura someone.
Therefore BP kimuraing Surfer is an acceptable showing.

Glad we agree here.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Just to be curious, if the writers honestly wanted to empower Sentry to MM's level, how do you think they should go about introducing this? Since obviously the way they did so, is not a way you will accept. I mean you're deliberately claiming that the writers were just wrong in stating and showing Sentry to have that ability. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

The MM that was hiding in a small town and kidnapping people for no reason? Instead of teleporting them to another spot in the country he kidnaps them and hopes that won't attract attention. This is MM, he mindwipe these people. And for some reason he freaked out at a mere missile coming at him. Pretty much watered down for plot sake.

If he's at non-jobbing MM level, Norn Stones empowered heroes wouldn't even affect him. Thor knocked him around just as much as Void knocked Thor around. MM would crush Thor with a thought. He's not on MM level because the majority of what he did was not MM level. Getting knocked about by Thor and smashed by a Hellicarrier is not even close to MM level. Kubik was throughing planets at Beyonder in their fight. The same Kubik that wouldn't dare fight MM and the same Beyonder that MM stomped. He's not on a cube beings level at all. In fact, Absorbing Man with a fraction of a Cosmic Cube's power easily dimissed and warped Sentry and Void into two separate beings. Void isn't taking on a non-jobbing MM at all and walking away.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The MM that was hiding in a small town and kidnapping people for no reason? Instead of teleporting them to another spot in the country he kidnaps them and hopes that won't attract attention. This is MM, he mindwipe these people. And for some reason he freaked out at a mere missile coming at him. Pretty much watered down for plot sake.

If he's at non-jobbing MM level, Norn Stones empowered heroes wouldn't even affect him. Thor knocked him around just as much as Void knocked Thor around. MM would crush Thor with a thought. He's not on MM level because the majority of what he did was not MM level. Getting knocked about by Thor and smashed by a Hellicarrier is not even close to MM level. Kubik was throughing planets at Beyonder in their fight. The same Kubik that wouldn't dare fight MM and the same Beyonder that MM stomped. He's not on a cube beings level at all. In fact, Absorbing Man with a fraction of a Cosmic Cube's power easily dimissed and warped Sentry and Void into two separate beings. Void isn't taking on a non-jobbing MM at all and walking away.
OK first of all, AM defeated Sentry before Sentry had realized his true powers. Secondly, I never claimed Sentry was indestructible... in fact MM blew him up. He will just regenerate. It doesn't matter if Thor knocks him around because physical force doesn't actually stop him. His great power isn't in the durability of his physical form. I mean, we saw IG Thanos get knocked around by some heroes including Wolverine... in no way does this mean they are close to him in power.

Woah woah. Either he's powerful enough to take down MM, or he's not. So, one of these is inconsistent. Either MM jobbed, or Void/Sentry isn't as powerful as that fight made him out. Besides, if he really could control atoms, Thor and the other guys wouldn't have touched him. A helicarrier wouldn't have stopped. It's like it always was with this guy, he's all hype.

If he really was Molecule Man level, it wouldn't have been Asgard that fell, it would have been most of the US, maybe the entire hemisphere, or hell, how about the entire planet, solar system or beyond? All of which are easily in Owen Reece's power to do.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Woah woah. Either he's powerful enough to take down MM, or he's not. So, one of these is inconsistent. Either MM jobbed, or Void/Sentry isn't as powerful as that fight made him out. Besides, if he really could control atoms, Thor and the other guys wouldn't have touched him. A helicarrier wouldn't have stopped. It's like it always was with this guy, he's all hype.

If he really was Molecule Man level, it wouldn't have been Asgard that fell, it would have been most of the US, maybe the entire hemisphere, or hell, how about the entire planet, solar system or beyond? All of which are easily in Owen Reece's power to do.
MM himself has been knocked around by physical force... you're just imposing a ridiculous double standard. It is nothing special for a character to recoil from the blows of someone far his inferior, I mean captain america has stunned the hulk with a punch before.

Also, its worth noting that even when in siege-mode, Sentry's will was still exerting itself and limiting void.

Excuse me? I looked at siege, Thor was the only big gun there. Nothing there puts Sentry on this god like level you seem to claim.

It's not a double standard if one character has a known habit of not going all out or limiting himself. Molecule Man doesn't always use his full power. And given that Sentry/Void demonstrated "nothing" on that level after that fight, it's clear that it was shitty writing and MM got jobbed out.

If not, then how did Void lose to a helicarrier and Thor?

siege would be the shitty writing then, this should be logical since there was a precedent created by the reece, wwh, new avengers, etc incidents

WWH? He did nothing there. He got bitchslapped. Thor wouldn't have suffered that defeat, nor Surfer, nor Stardust or most of the top tier heralds. Sentry got bitched. New Avengers? You mean Shultron? Not a great feat.

nah man, i;m talking about the time emma frost was trying to calm him down when he let the void sort of take over. he was about to trample the avengers and some x-men, strange, etc

Again this fruitless discussion about Void and MM, it's pretty dumb. I should just rehearsh a definite post about it and copy paste it everywhere Mungi-style.

MM was crazy and delirious, if Iron Fist fought in those conditions no one would've said the feats are valid, yet, since Owen is a reality warper it makes crazy being fine when it comes to power levels. Some thing people tend to miss is the fact that Sentry/Void lies, he throws b-shit like he's Galactus or the Angel of Death and people go around taking his crap at face value. He couldn't rebuilt the universe, ever, it wasn't in his powerset, but he tricked Owen into doing it with a lie, "I'm not experienced enough".

Not even discrediting Void's ability to come back after destruction, he never showed the kind of power needed to win. MM didn't use any of the multiple ways he had to beat Bob, should we assume Bob is indestructible because of it? Way to turn this into a fallacy.

Originally posted by Bentley
Again this fruitless discussion about Void and MM, it's pretty dumb. I should just rehearsh a definite post about it and copy paste it everywhere Mungi-style.

MM was crazy and delirious, if Iron Fist fought in those conditions no one would've said the feats are valid, yet, since Owen is a reality warper it makes crazy being fine when it comes to power levels. Some thing people tend to miss is the fact that Sentry/Void lies, he throws b-shit like he's Galactus or the Angel of Death and people go around taking his crap at face value. He couldn't rebuilt the universe, ever, it wasn't in his powerset, but he tricked Owen into doing it with a lie, "I'm not experienced enough".

Not even discrediting Void's ability to come back after destruction, he never showed the kind of power needed to win. MM didn't use any of the multiple ways he had to beat Bob, should we assume Bob is indestructible because of it? Way to turn this into a fallacy.

FINALLY! Someone who can process logic.

Originally posted by Bentley
Again this fruitless discussion about Void and MM, it's pretty dumb. I should just rehearsh a definite post about it and copy paste it everywhere Mungi-style.

MM was crazy and delirious, if Iron Fist fought in those conditions no one would've said the feats are valid, yet, since Owen is a reality warper it makes crazy being fine when it comes to power levels. Some thing people tend to miss is the fact that Sentry/Void lies, he throws b-shit like he's Galactus or the Angel of Death and people go around taking his crap at face value. He couldn't rebuilt the universe, ever, it wasn't in his powerset, but he tricked Owen into doing it with a lie, "I'm not experienced enough".

Not even discrediting Void's ability to come back after destruction, he never showed the kind of power needed to win. MM didn't use any of the multiple ways he had to beat Bob, should we assume Bob is indestructible because of it? Way to turn this into a fallacy.

Bravo.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK first of all, AM defeated Sentry before Sentry had realized his true powers. Secondly, I never claimed Sentry was indestructible... in fact MM blew him up. He will just regenerate. It doesn't matter if Thor knocks him around because physical force doesn't actually stop him. His great power isn't in the durability of his physical form. I mean, we saw IG Thanos get knocked around by some heroes including Wolverine... in no way does this mean they are close to him in power.

MM forgot all about his Cosmic Cube powers and was some how over powered by a Sentry/Void that "hadn't" realized his true power. So I guess we'll go with Sentry is more powerful than MM when MM was reduced to hiding in a small town and kidnapping people. His regenerating means next to nothing if MM was capable of reaching acrossing time and space to bringing back the Beyonder from Kosmos and fought a fight from the Quantum level to the Transmultversal that caused a Watcher to go blind and gave a plant sentience. Even with his discovered new powers, he did nothing remotely close to any cube being in power including watered down MM. Aside from MM jobbing, what does Sentry/Void have in terms of feat that even watered down MM couldn't outperform?

His only claim to MM level was one skewed fight to make him look more badass for Siege.

reece killed sentry like 3-4 times, it just didn't stick

every time he rezzed he like exp'd up or some shit.

The only time they faced each other and Sentry/Void won. So until there's a rematch planned, Sentry/Void > MM in a one on one fight (feats maybe a different story).

Originally posted by zopzop
The only time they faced each other and Sentry/Void won. So until there's a rematch planned, Sentry/Void > MM in a one on one fight (feats maybe a different story).


The only time Firelord and Spider-man fought... Wait a sec...

yeah seriously, not a reasonable summation at all

Originally posted by Bentley
The only time Firelord and Spider-man fought... Wait a sec...

Who won? Spiderman right? So why cry about it? If you don't like it, take it up with Marvel.

Originally posted by zopzop
Who won? Spiderman right? So why cry about it? If you don't like it, take it up with Marvel.


Well, the problems is that we have rules against that in this forums. We can't use it as proof, you don't like it? Take it to the forums.

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, the problems is that we have rules against that in this forums. We can't use it as proof, you don't like it? Take it to the forums.

But MM still lost as did Firelord.

Originally posted by zopzop
But MM still lost as did Firelord.


Nobody is arguing against that.

He wins in a forum fight though 131

If this was classic MM, then MM takes this.

Originally posted by Bentley
Nobody is arguing against that.

He wins in a forum fight though 131

much different circumstance though...Sentry straight up overpower MM at his own game....cant say the say more spiderman

Originally posted by bbrem123
much different circumstance though...Sentry straight up overpower MM at his own game....cant say the say more spiderman Over Powered a Mental MM. He was a nut case. He could have teleported the entire planet into a black hole if he wanted to.

he wanted to be left alone...why would he do that? what does being mental have to do with anything here...sentry is mental also



sounds like excuses to why he lost to me

Originally posted by bbrem123
he wanted to be left alone...why would he do that? what does being mental have to do with anything here...sentry is mental also



sounds like excuses to why he lost to me If he didn't operate to the best of his abilities, why should the victory be taken seriously?

I'm confused as to when some characters get a low showing against another character it's always considered non valid or at least not used in most debates, yet the one low showing for Molecule Man instantly means what happened in that fight will always happen?

For one thing, Owen was breaking down, he was giving his subconcious physical forms and other stuff, and was clearly not in his best of health.

Also, Molecule Man has far, far more he can do to beat Sentry than he showed in those issues. yes, he could tear Sentry apart atom by atom, but he could just as easily encase Sentry in a adamantium block and leave him there, seeing as Sentry's showings in terms of actual matter manipulation are next to none.

Owen could also nuke him with energy blasts, change a molecule in his mind to make him collapse and experience delusions (ala Osborn) among many other things.

Although Owen could also just disintegrate him and that stop his atoms from reforming by controlling them all.

Originally posted by bbrem123
much different circumstance though...Sentry straight up overpower MM at his own game....cant say the say more spiderman


I wasn't discussing about Spider-man it was just a simple explanation that comic wins don't always translate in forum wins.

I agree that it is impressive for Void to resist Owen's warp, it doesn't mean MM fighting at his best can't win.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
I'm confused as to when some characters get a low showing against another character it's always considered non valid or at least not used in most debates, yet the one low showing for Molecule Man instantly means what happened in that fight will always happen?

For one thing, Owen was breaking down, he was giving his subconcious physical forms and other stuff, and was clearly not in his best of health.

Also, Molecule Man has far, far more he can do to beat Sentry than he showed in those issues. yes, he could tear Sentry apart atom by atom, but he could just as easily encase Sentry in a adamantium block and leave him there, seeing as Sentry's showings in terms of actual matter manipulation are next to none.

Owen could also nuke him with energy blasts, change a molecule in his mind to make him collapse and experience delusions (ala Osborn) among many other things.

Although Owen could also just disintegrate him and that stop his atoms from reforming by controlling them all.

Co-signed.

Originally posted by Comics Queen
Over Powered a Mental MM. He was a nut case. He could have teleported the entire planet into a black hole if he wanted to. MM still completely destroyed him. You can't do much better than completely destroying someone can you ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
MM still completely destroyed him. You can't do much better than completely destroying someone can you ?


You're, right, so MM wins?

Originally posted by Bentley
You're, right, so MM wins? We've already seen him fail against the Void. Void comes back when he wants to it's that simple and we've seen him do so against the MM's best attempts at absorbing/destroying him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We've already seen him fail against the Void. Void comes back when he wants to it's that simple and we've seen him do so against the MM's best attempts at absorbing/destroying him.


Best attempts is a nice wordplay given we have no idea what he was trying exactly, he could've done other things considering his incredible powerset.

Originally posted by Bentley
Best attempts is a nice wordplay given we have no idea what he was trying exactly, he could've done other things considering his incredible powerset. Doing better than flat out completely destroying someone ? Who else can come back from this attack other than Thanos ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Doing better than flat out completely destroying someone ? Who else can come back from this attack other than Thanos ?


Defending himself with reality warping for example, I mean, Void ripped MM appart, but so has Wolverine, if he isn't shown using any kind of defense and batshit crazy, we can't be sure he defended himself properly. It's comics.

Then rise and repeat, beat Void until he runs out of juice, or use Thanos like beams to ko him despite regeneration, pick your poison.

Originally posted by Bentley
Defending himself with reality warping for example, I mean, Void ripped MM appart, but so has Wolverine, if he isn't shown using any kind of defense and batshit crazy, we can't be sure he defended himself properly. It's comics.

Then rise and repeat, beat Void until he runs out of juice, or use Thanos like beams to ko him despite regeneration, pick your poison. Wolverine couldn't survive what MM did to the Sentry. Void doesn't run out of juice we have never ever seen this happen so we don't know if there is an upper limit what it is. Sentry overpowered his defenses with his own powers and then learned how to do so by forcing the MM.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Wolverine couldn't survive what MM did to the Sentry. Void doesn't run out of juice we have never ever seen this happen so we don't know if there is an upper limit what it is. Sentry overpowered his defenses with his own powers and then learned how to do so by forcing the MM.


Feel free to prove MM used any decent defenses such as teleporting, warping time or any other nice stuff he can throw at high levels.

MM can just bfr him, he's too versatile even if you believe Void is actually impossible to kill, which he isn't since he was spent twice in his career -but this is not important for our discussion, he's screwed one way or another-.

Originally posted by Bentley
Feel free to prove MM used any decent defenses such as teleporting, warping time or any other nice stuff he can throw at high levels.

MM can just bfr him, he's too versatile even if you believe Void is actually impossible to kill, which he isn't since he was spent twice in his career -but this is not important for our discussion, he's screwed one way or another-. The tactics used don't escape the end means. He destroyed him. He wanted him completely eradicated. You can use whatever showing you want and argue Thor didn't godblast, soulsuck, etc. to ignore a loss. This is your right but it's not how I debate.

I don't see bfring him working but that's for another discussion you can't do much better than completely destroying someone. Void can reassemble and come back for more.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The tactics used don't escape the end means. He destroyed him. He wanted him completely eradicated. You can use whatever showing you want and argue Thor didn't godblast, soulsuck, etc. to ignore a loss. This is your right but it's not how I debate.

I don't see bfring him working but that's for another discussion you can't do much better than completely destroying someone. Void can reassemble and come back for more.


Keep in mind that there was a reason for him not to be destroyed, when it came to molecular control Void could reassemble, but MM didn't try to destroy Void's molecules otherwise, he just used his own control which didn't affect Sentry's molecules "right", since as he explained they tasted different. Any other venue other than straight molecular attacks should affect Void just fine.

Originally posted by Bentley
Keep in mind that there was a reason for him not to be destroyed, when it came to molecular control Void could reassemble, but MM didn't try to destroy Void's molecules otherwise, he just used his own control which didn't affect Sentry's molecules "right", since as he explained they tasted different. Any other venue other than straight molecular attacks should affect Void just fine. Not really since he can come back from death ala Morrigana in dark avengers. We have also seen him reform from America's shield toss albeit amped, a kree gun's blast to the head, etc.

These are examples of him easily wading off attacks that have affected him other than molecular attacks. His control did work but Sentry overrode his control after coming back which is something he can do as the angel of death.

He may do it as Galactus as well

You cannot really compare the damage dealt by Morgana or some random amped Avengers with Molecule Man at his best. He's simply beyond those levels.

Originally posted by Bentley
He may do it as Galactus as well

You cannot really compare the damage dealt by Morgana or some random amped Avengers with Molecule Man at his best. He's simply beyond those levels. Yes, I can as you just mentioned attacks having more of an impact than molecular attacks.

Either way you look at it he can beat MM or survive other less formidable attacks because he can come back when he wants to. He did so against MM so case closed.

sentry had better control over MM's molecules then even MM himself did..hence the reason MM says, "how are u doing this, i control them molecules"

there was no defense cuz he was just overpowered...plan and simple

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, I can as you just mentioned attacks having more of an impact than molecular attacks.

Either way you look at it he can beat MM or survive other less formidable attacks because he can come back when he wants to. He did so against MM so case closed.


The issue explained why warping wasn't effective, just using collateral attacks more powerful than those which killed Void should work just fine.

Originally posted by Bentley
The issue explained why warping wasn't effective, just using collateral attacks more powerful than those which killed Void should work just fine.

what makes u assume this??

and r u agreeing sentry overpowered MM?

Originally posted by Bentley
The issue explained why warping wasn't effective, just using collateral attacks more powerful than those which killed Void should work just fine. No, because Void can come back after being destroyed. We have proof of this we have no proof outside of a suicidal Bob demanding he be killed and not coming back simply because he doesn't want to.

Also your logic is severely flawed as you can't do worse than completely destroying someone so what does collateral damage have to do with anything ?

Originally posted by bbrem123
what makes u assume this??

and r u agreeing sentry overpowered MM?


I agree that Void overpowered MM's reality warping on him and proceeded to make him explode, that's what we all saw on panel.

I believe he's inmune to the warp because of two things: Owen mentioned his molecules tasted funny -they must be special which is why Owen cannot control them right-, and second Void said he controlled his own molecules and made a tiny wolf. He opposed the warp using those abilities, pretty high reality warping resisting feat.

Not the end of all the battles.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, because Void can come back after being destroyed. We have proof of this we have no proof outside of a suicidal Bob demanding he be killed and not coming back simply because he doesn't want to.

Also your logic is severely flawed as you can't do worse than completely destroying someone so what does collateral damage have to do with anything ?

So Void regenerates from a few herald level attacks and you think he can regenerate against anything? Nice infinity fallacy there mister.

Originally posted by Bentley
I agree that Void overpowered MM's reality warping on him and proceeded to make him explode, that's what we all saw on panel.

I believe he's inmune to the warp because of two things: Owen mentioned his molecules tasted funny -they must be special which is why Owen cannot control them right-, and second Void said he controlled his own molecules and made a tiny wolf. He opposed the warp using those abilities, pretty high reality warping resisting feat.

Not the end of all the battles.



So Void regenerates from a few herald level attacks and you think he can regenerate against anything? Nice infinity fallacy there mister. He wasn't immune to the warp as he didn't prevent being destroyed he simply returned to the battle and realized he had these powers as well. Right on panel and it's been confirmed he can come back from complete destruction.

He regenerated from Morgana and MM destroying him and the writer confirmed he can come back when he wants to. How many more examples do you need ?

Wolverine can regenerate, so can Void, big deal.


But now that you mention it, when Cap attacked Void he said:

"Keep attacking me, I can regenerate all day long"


Oh, sorry, he said "Aaaaarggh!"

Thor killed Sentry/Void. End of story. Btw, this angel of death thing is a name game. Void's trying to scare people. Last time I saw someone claim that title in comics, was Eclipso, and Spectre. Both of whom have a far better claim to that title by feats, and word of GOD himself, than anything Void ever did.

I certainly don't buy into Stormin' Norman of all people saying he's the Angel of Death.

We don't know WTF he is and that scene in Dark Avengers taking place in Biblical Egypt doesn't confirm anything outside of that something that could/was the Void entity/whatever active at that time. Bendis even said Sentry was a liar and not to take everything he said at face value, iirc.

Hell, it's more likely he's somehow connected with Chaos King with the "void" aspect and all than being a biblical entity.

Question: Why is it that MM's fight against Beyonder is considered cannon when he loses frequently to much weaker opponents, such as the combined forces of a depowered Thing and Man-Thing? Is there some trove of feats that put him at "all-powerful"? because his normal showing, from what I have seen, is nowhere near Beyonder...

Originally posted by inimalist
Question: Why is it that MM's fight against Beyonder is considered cannon when he loses frequently to much weaker opponents, such as the combined forces of a depowered Thing and Man-Thing? Is there some trove of feats that put him at "all-powerful"? because his normal showing, from what I have seen, is nowhere near Beyonder...

For one thing the one who lost to Thing/Man Thing wasn't even the original Molecule Man.

He was a being created by the original Molecule Man in a pocket dimension who had the same powers as that current incarnation of MM.
That being said, not only was this version still dependent on physical contact with the wand to not only use his powers, but to stop himself dying, but this was long, long before the mental blocks were lifted from Molecule Man, and as such the being he created had powers in line with pre mental block MM.

Post mental block MM was more powerful than every abstract combined and the only threat to the Beyonder in existence.

Then there was the cosmic cube retcon which makes Reece while not as uber as he was, still incredibly powerful- it was in this incarnation he fought Beyonder and warped the multiverse.

And he hasn't lost to inferior beings since his mental block was lifted in the 80's, bar the recent Sentry fight.

ah, fair enough, I suppose I was really only familiar with him before all that, thanks

Originally posted by Bentley
Wolverine can regenerate, so can Void, big deal.


But now that you mention it, when Cap attacked Void he said:

"Keep attacking me, I can regenerate all day long"


Oh, sorry, he said "Aaaaarggh!" Who says that ? He did that already. Wolverine can't 'come back from complete molecular destruction whereas the Void can.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thor killed Sentry/Void. End of story. Btw, this angel of death thing is a name game. Void's trying to scare people. Last time I saw someone claim that title in comics, was Eclipso, and Spectre. Both of whom have a far better claim to that title by feats, and word of GOD himself, than anything Void ever did. The writer confirmed he only didn't come back because he didn't want to so in a forum fight he comes back he doesn't stay dead.

Except comics rule and non-infinite fallacy rules. Nothing points out towards Void having infinite stamina inside comics...

He even said "Aaaargh!"

Originally posted by Bentley
Except comics rule and non-infinite fallacy rules. Nothing points out towards Void having infinite stamina inside comics...

He even said "Aaaargh!" Experiencing pain does not mean close to defeat. Hulk gets cut does that mean he is close to being defeated. Void can come back from complete destruction whereas MM cannot. Pretty simple.

Owen is just way beyond either of these two.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Experiencing pain does not mean close to defeat. Hulk gets cut does that mean he is close to being defeated. Void can come back from complete destruction whereas MM cannot. Pretty simple.



Even if that's true, which isn't stated by the comic themselves. What about bfr? Void never teleported through time or dimensions, any advanced kind of bfr owns him hard.

Originally posted by Bentley
Even if that's true, which isn't stated by the comic themselves. What about bfr? Void never teleported through time or dimensions, any advanced kind of bfr owns him hard. He can mm himself back from nonexistence so how can he bfr him ?

We saw him do so in the comic and we saw him flat out pwn MM. In a direct matchup Void pwns him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He can mm himself back from nonexistence so how can he bfr him ?

We saw him do so in the comic and we saw him flat out pwn MM. In a direct matchup Void pwns him.


I brought the bfr point mostly because the last time we discussed it, I thought, well, I thought you don't quite grasp the concept of banning someone from the battlefield. It doesn't mean destroying him, just sending him away, like throwing him so far he can't come back.

Part of me just want it for you to be impossibly stubborn as usual, but please, you understand those things are entirely different, right?

Originally posted by Bentley
I brought the bfr point mostly because the last time we discussed it, I thought, well, I thought you don't quite grasp the concept of banning someone from the battlefield. It doesn't mean destroying him, just sending him away, like throwing him so far he can't come back.

Part of me just want it for you to be impossibly stubborn as usual, but please, you understand those things are entirely different, right? Tes, but he can reform from nothingness so what does distance have to do with anything.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Tes, but he can reform from nothingness so what does distance have to do with anything.


Exactly

BFR is sending you to an impossible distance, how is reforming going to help him to return from such distance? (hint: it won't)

Originally posted by Bentley
Exactly

BFR is sending you to an impossible distance, how is reforming going to help him to return from such distance? (hint: it won't) Coming back means you don't exist anywhere. If he can come back from nothingness why can't he just reform where he wants to.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Coming back means you don't exist anywhere. If he can come back from nothingness why can't he just reform where he wants to.


Well, not only because he hasn't done it on panel, but also because destroying someone isn't the same as the person ceasing to exist.

Seriously, are you messing with me on this?

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, not only because he hasn't done it on panel, but also because destroying someone isn't the same as the person ceasing to exist.

Seriously, are you messing with me on this? The Void hasn't been bfr'd and completely destroyed is ceasing to exist in that reality anyways. The Void is only dead now because he allows it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Coming back means you don't exist anywhere. If he can come back from nothingness why can't he just reform where he wants to.
Oh that's BS... if that were true Mr. Immortal would have to be able to teleport as well.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Oh that's BS... if that were true Mr. Immortal would have to be able to teleport as well. Void's powers are different than his are. If this were true wouldn't his body have to appear in the same vicinity of where his body was destroyed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Void's powers are different than his are. If this were true wouldn't his body have to appear in the same vicinity of where his body was destroyed.
It has appeared in the same vicinity... And even if it hasn't, it was only after a while, no indication it can move exceptionally fast or teleport.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It has appeared in the same vicinity... And even if it hasn't, it was only after a while, no indication it can move exceptionally fast or teleport. I seem to recall the Morrigana death he was completely off the grid but it's been a while.

If he can reality mm he can do so to himself so distance doesn't matter he can appear where he wants to imo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I seem to recall the Morrigana death he was completely off the grid but it's been a while.

If he can reality mm he can do so to himself so distance doesn't matter he can appear where he wants to imo.
OK, but, that's definitely not "proof"... Just because you can matter manipulate doesn't mean you have to have infinite, limitless range and influence. And certainly, regen alone wouldn't prove such a thing.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK, but, that's definitely not "proof"... Just because you can matter manipulate doesn't mean you have to have infinite, limitless range and influence. And certainly, regen alone wouldn't prove such a thing. He didn't reform in the same exact spot and the other example prior to him even understanding his abilties he ended up elsewhere. He's flat out existed as the Sentry and the Void before on the same panel and thrown himself into the sun.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He didn't reform in the same exact spot and the other example prior to him even understanding his abilties he ended up elsewhere. He's flat out existed as the Sentry and the Void before on the same panel and thrown himself into the sun.
OK but just because he wasn't in the exact same spot doesn't mean he can move instantaneously FTL... the speed could be anything. Insisting that there are only two modes (100% stationary or infinitely fast) is just ludicrous.

Sentry can make light constructs so it only makes sense he'd be able to do something like that... that's like saying Kyle Raynar is infinitely fast because he created Oblivion.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK but just because he wasn't in the exact same spot doesn't mean he can move instantaneously FTL... the speed could be anything. Insisting that there are only two modes (100% stationary or infinitely fast) is just ludicrous.

Sentry can make light constructs so it only makes sense he'd be able to do something like that... that's like saying Kyle Raynar is infinitely fast because he created Oblivion. I see what you are saying I just disagree with what we have seen the Sentry/Void able to do. I don't see the nwer/deadlier Void as being able to be bfr'd. I see his insane resurrecting his dead wife, mm feats, fighting the Sentry and being thrown into the sun and existing in two different spots at the same time and coming back from Morgana's attack on him in a different spot as leaning towards my opinion.

His powers were never fully explained he's like a spectre type character he can and has done what the plot required of him and just came up with new powers every so often. Agree to disagree.

You know how that is called? The infinity fallacy. Long story short Quanchi you're death wrong, you can believe whatever you want of course, but you lost the debate.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Bentley
You know how that is called? The infinity fallacy. Long story short Quanchi you're death wrong, you can believe whatever you want of course, but you lost the debate.

Concession accepted. I've given my reasoning you disagree with it that's fine but deep down you know your heart says, quan he's done it again.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Concession Accepted.

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/political-pictures-high-five.jpg

Originally posted by Bentley
http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/political-pictures-high-five.jpg Your

(inner monologue ----



Quan, he's' done it again).

Originally posted by quanchi112
I see what you are saying I just disagree with what we have seen the Sentry/Void able to do. I don't see the nwer/deadlier Void as being able to be bfr'd. I see his insane resurrecting his dead wife, mm feats, fighting the Sentry and being thrown into the sun and existing in two different spots at the same time and coming back from Morgana's attack on him in a different spot as leaning towards my opinion.

His powers were never fully explained he's like a spectre type character he can and has done what the plot required of him and just came up with new powers every so often. Agree to disagree.
Of course, the real question is if they'd be able to execute a BFR in the first place.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Of course, the real question is if they'd be able to execute a BFR in the first place. Good point.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Apart from killing Molecule Man you mean ka-dur he did explode him, but I didnt interpret that to mean he was actually killed, IIRC voidtry even tells him not to return.

Just because Owen jobbed to Sentry once, I don't think that he should be seen as this weak. I see the sentry vs. void fight in the same light as the Firelord vs spiderman fight. It shouldn't have happened, but somehow it's canon.

Owen ftw.