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The Annihilators consist of

Surfer
Gladiator
Beta Ray Bill
Quasar
Ronan

No BFRing

Can they take out the probes?

Probes are hard to call and vary greatly in power. Assuming they were all Superman level, or slightly stronger, they'd win after a good fight.

The big problem is their self-destructs. The Annihilators would almost certain lose members to that alone.

I think the annihilators take the majority imo.

Depends on the probes. High level probes would eventually overpower the team, it may take a while, but in the end the numbers are too great.

Probes are overrated b!tches. The thing that would give them wins in this is their 2 to 1 ratio against the Annihilators. The self-destruct nonsense isn't going to work well against Surfer, Bill, and Gladiator. Weaker versions that were getting plowed through by DD and Superman would mean stomps for the Annihilators. Only high end Probes would take the majority against the Annihilators by overwhelming them.

Probes, hard.

Imperiex Probes destroy them.

Originally posted by Starscream M
DD was shredding through them pretty easily iirc And?

Originally posted by Starscream M
so why would these heralds have trouble then?Because they're not Doomsday?

High end probes should be able to take a majority.

There are no high-end and low-end probes. All of them are the same.

Probes.

Lulz at getting beaten by H/P DD being some kind of indicator that the Annihilators will beat the Probes.

So, because Superman, and DD were able to destroy them, make them fodder.

I mean is freaking Superman, and the thing that killed him.

If anything, it proves the probes are Superman;s equal, if not higher than him.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Probes.

Lulz at getting beaten by H/P DD being some kind of indicator that the Annihilators will beat the Probes. do you realize HP DD beat them in space? HP DD is much less effective in space...he can't fly and has no leverage for his attacks

Originally posted by Starscream M
do you realize HP DD beat them in space? HP DD is much less effective in space...he can't fly and has no leverage for his attacks

Weren't they on astroids?

Originally posted by Q99
I disagree. The one that fought the league showed more offense than most.

Their physical models weren't identical; different colors and all that. You disagree because they had different colors?

Originally posted by Starscream M
do you realize HP DD beat them in space? HP DD is much less effective in space...he can't fly and has no leverage for his attacks
Lol just lol.

I laughed at how he repeated that several times throughout the thread, in hopes that someone bites on his trolling.

uh huh, you have no dispute with what I said...so its trolling. good debating tactic there.

Who on God's Green Earth are saying they are all the same. For God's sake look at how they got dealt with and by who to know there were differences in power. Sh1t they even looked different. Yet they were all EXACTLY the same level of power... lol

Tell me, how were the probes produced?

Annihilators

Annihilators easily. Anyone who disagrees has been inside their brother.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Annihilators easily. Anyone who disagrees has been inside their brother.

Lol

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Probes are hard to call and vary greatly in power. Assuming they were all Superman level, or slightly stronger, they'd win after a good fight.

The first probe was *hard* for both Superman and Mongul Jr. to take out working together.

The Titans probe was taken out in a one-on-one battle with Superman, but not easily.

The JLA probe took out Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern (with no weakness exploitation, just energy blasts) with Flash and Wonder Woman supporting them, then WW killed it with some backlash damage hurting her.

Another probe was killed by pretty much just Hippolyta in a hard fight.

Superman and DD killed 4, I think.


Oh yea, another big thing- it took the heroes awhile to realize breaching the armor with a piercing or cutting attack, preferably at a joint, was a big thing. Impacts and energy blasts don't do a lot to even the weaker probes. If the Annihilators don't know that going in, they're likely to waste a fair amount of effort.

Between detonation damage and not knowing the piercing thing off the bat (it's not common knowledge), even if it's, say, 2 JLA probes, two 'about even with Superman,' and 8 normal probes, I'd give it to the Probes.

The detonation damage really is a big thing, even the herald levels who took it and were able to return to the fight later (which I think is just Diana and Superman) were hurt by them.

Oh boy. This is going to turn into a battle between DC fans and Marvel fans.

I'm going to say... something in the neighborhood of 8-10 probes destroyed. Some of it is luck of the draw, who happens to kill one first and experience the blast. If they get Gladiator badly wounded off the start, then things'll be harder for them. Ronan, the rest can rally.

Originally posted by dmills
Oh boy. This is going to turn into a battle between DC fans and Marvel fans.
Or the between those who think they have varying power levels and Philosophia.

vin

Originally posted by Q99
If something fights at different levels Expand. The probes were never once throughout the arc, by either of the plethora of characters confronting them, pointed out to be at different powerlevel. But I'm sure I'm misremembering - care to point me to where it's stated?
Originally posted by StyleTime
Or the between those who think they have varying power levels and Philosophia.

vin It's because I'm one of the few who has actually read the arc. Kurupt Thanosi is probably still desperatley searching on google for the answer to my question, while sobbing. You're free to jump in when you have any kind of contribution to the discussion, though.

HaHaHa you're a funny guy Philo. The answer to your question backs up your stance about them being the same power level, being that there creation was the same. However, my contention is that they seemed to vary in power considering how different people did again them. I don't think there is much disputing that either. Therefore, with your stance being correct from a creational viewpoint, there isn't much to say or debate about. You can always refer to how they were created and always refer to there never being a mention of them varying in power levels.

It was never metioned and that is what he will rely upon. Even though, going by how they looked against a variety of people they seem to operate at different levels.

Originally posted by Starscream M
do you realize HP DD beat them in space? HP DD is much less effective in space...he can't fly and has no leverage for his attacks Neither does lobo. Still doesn't change a damn thing does it ?

Probes on average.

I don't think we should think of them as having different power levels, they just act as different aspects/identities of Imperiex. Superman is way above Kyle and J'onn. Superman and Mongul was getting beat the first time around then the second time when the same probe returned and destroyed Topeka, Superman had to give it everything to win.

Originally posted by kevdude
I don't think we should think of them as having different power levels, they just act as different aspects/identities of Imperiex. Superman is way above Kyle and J'onn.

He's really not, the two of them together are much stronger than Supes (heck, Kyle later contains the true Imperiex). And Flash and WW were there too.



Yea, and other probes he ripped through easy, and others still were only slightly in his favor. One was taken down by Diana's mother in melee. The one who took the league could not have been defeated like that.


The performance varies too much. Some probes were freakin' bricks who were really hard to hurt. Others were a lot easier to handle.

Originally posted by Q99
He's really not, the two of them together are much stronger than Supes (heck, Kyle later contains the true Imperiex). And Flash and WW were there too.



Yea, and other probes he ripped through easy, and others still were only slightly in his favor. One was taken down by Diana's mother in melee. The one who took the league could not have been defeated like that.


The performance varies too much. Some probes were freakin' bricks who were really hard to hurt. Others were a lot easier to handle.

Naah, Diana mother took TWO probes down by herself.

The thing is, its pretty obvious they were different in powerset. The one that was stalemating the JLA had a spiked ball as a hand while others were diplaying different abilities as well.

Diana mother killed two of them by tossing a space ship to their dome and black lightning along with lois father killed one with a small nuke.

Originally posted by Q99
He's really not, the two of them together are much stronger than Supes (heck, Kyle later contains the true Imperiex). And Flash and WW were there too.]

Superman took on numerous probes while Kyle and J'onn took on 1 or 2??






It seems to come down to them being separate individual probes then anything else and other circumstances range differently how they was defeated.

Originally posted by kevdude
Superman is way above Kyle and J'onn.
Care to make the thread? biscuits
Originally posted by kevdude
Superman took on numerous probes while Kyle and J'onn took on 1 or 2??

It seems to come down to them being separate individual probes then anything else and other circumstances range differently how they was defeated.
That could support the argument that they vary in power level though.

It seems like you agree, but you insist on calling it something different.

A rose by any other name and all that jazz...

Originally posted by StyleTime
Care to make the thread? biscuits

Nah kwasny



I can see it from that point now that you mention it.

Originally posted by kevdude
Superman took on numerous probes while Kyle and J'onn took on 1 or 2??



One probe took on Kyle, J'onn, Flash, and Wonder Woman. Kyle and J'onn were taken down and then it was destroyed by Diana who was hurt by the backlash.

Superman fought multiple probes, sometimes soloing easily, sometimes soloing with difficulty, sometimes requiring help.

Hippolyta soloed a probe.






What? Your grammar's a bit odd, there.

But most of these fights were head-on without much in the way of complicated circumstances to speak of, save possessing more knowledge of probes past the first wave.

To be fair, I think kevdude agrees at this point.

Originally posted by Q99
One probe took on Kyle, J'onn, Flash, and Wonder Woman. Kyle and J'onn were taken down and then it was destroyed by Diana who was hurt by the backlash.

Superman fought multiple probes, sometimes soloing easily, sometimes soloing with difficulty, sometimes requiring help.

Hippolyta soloed a probe.

Been awhile since I've read OWAW, you are correct.







Was tired when I posted..

And I agree with this.

Originally posted by Q99
They have wildly different actual performances.

Do you just assume character who look similar-but-different and fight on different levels are the same power unless someone comes out and tells you?

One can *beat down* J'onn and Kyle with several other members of the league supporting and not look to have a hard time of it, others are dispatched quickly by Superman, others still are able to stand against Superman and exchange blows for awhile even when he's going full-bore.


"Not saying they're different powers," is not evidence that they're all the same power. It's funny, because you missed the whole point of that scene, and it's actually meant to show the opposite of what you're trying to push. It was Superman who was different, who had a chance in mindset - the probes were at the same level as the ones he met on Earth.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermancutsloose4.jpg

"As his partner is destruction personified, so he has become. And from that transformation...success. Far away from the humanity he holds in such high measure, where the probes seemed much more deadly, he has cut loose. Subsequently, the probes have offered little resistence. If only he'd have come to this conclusion on Earth, how many might've been saved?"

I'd assume you're smart enough to figure out on your own what this says, but just in case, if not for you, then for others.
(1). Once away from humanity, where the probes offered him far more resistence, Superman has cut loose, and been transformed into a Doomsday like mindset, and thus, the probes are no longer able to offer any fight.
(2). In the last phrase, it is directly stated that if he'd have done this on Earth, the same result would have taken place (ie. him plowing through the Probes attack and saving all those lives).

Bonus context: Superman holding back immensly is one of the biggest points of Jeph Loeb's whole run on the character from that period, and OWAW was practically the culmination of all of that.

Ok, and you're taking this to mean that all of the probes were the exact same?

Sure, if Superman had cut out sooner, he would've done better against the early probes. The difference in performance there was quite minor, he did solo them just with more difficulty. So maybe they were the same.


But that doesn't explain the JLA probe, that did a lot better against an assembled group of herald levels than the ones who fought holding back Superman. It was dishing out much more damage than the one in Topeka or the one who fought the Titans (who were both beaten by Superman, but in fights and and not easily slaughtered), and was able to withstand their assault too.


We have Hippolyta soloing a probe too. Hippolyta beating a near-Superman level foe, I can see. Hippolyta beating a foe that was able to take down multiple herald levels at once, I can't. Does Superman not holding back suddenly multiply her power to the level of multiple leaguers?


A difference of Superman's strengths in different fights definitely does not show equality between all probes. There are some clear standouts even when you take that into account.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, and you're taking this to mean that all of the probes were the exact same?

Sure, if Superman had cut out sooner, he would've done better against the early probes. The difference in performance there was quite minor, he did solo them just with more difficulty. So maybe they were the same.


But that doesn't explain the JLA probe, that did a lot better against an assembled group of herald levels than the ones who fought holding back Superman. It was dishing out much more damage than the one in Topeka or the one who fought the Titans (who were both beaten by Superman, but in fights and and not easily slaughtered), and was able to withstand their assault too.


We have Hippolyta soloing a probe too. Hippolyta beating a near-Superman level foe, I can see. Hippolyta beating a foe that was able to take down multiple herald levels at once, I can't. Does Superman not holding back suddenly multiply her power to the level of multiple leaguers?


A difference of Superman's strengths in different fights definitely does not show equality between all probes. There are some clear standouts even when you take that into account.

Hippolyta took out 2 probes.

Originally posted by carver9
Hippolyta took out 2 probes.

I stand corrected.

So yea. I'm pretty sure Hippolyta going all-out is still a fair bit weaker than Kyle, J'onn, Diana, and Flash fighting normally. Even if she is wearing armor and has Diana's lasso.

The reason is simple, the League jobbed when they fought that Probe, isn't that hard to believe given... It's the JLA anyways.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, and you're taking this to mean that all of the probes were the exact same?

Sure, if Superman had cut out sooner, he would've done better against the early probes. The difference in performance there was quite minor, he did solo them just with more difficulty. So maybe they were the same. That was in order to nullify the argument you used, which is that the difference in performances that Superman had against the probes shows that they have different powerlevel - when in fact it was Superman changing his mindset and morality that affected his performance, and the author made it clear that the same thing would have happened had he have had the same mindset against every other probe he confronted.

There's no "maybe" here. Your argument was invalid.

It's funny you use the Hippolyta argument, firstly because, just earlier in this thread you stated:Originally posted by Q99
Oh yea, another big thing- it took the heroes awhile to realize breaching the armor with a piercing or cutting attack, preferably at a joint, was a big thing. Impacts and energy blasts don't do a lot to even the weaker probes. Which is exactly what Hippolyta did, using the indestructible, mystical lasso.

Lasso which has been shown to cut through the Probe armor like butter. (let me guess, the probes also have differently durable armor, and it just happened that the only random probes that the lasso went up and worked against were the weaker ones, right?)

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_lassoweakness1.jpghttp://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_lassoweakness2.jpg

That wasn't something the JLA were aware of, and neither did they have the lasso, so you saying "it's ridiculous that Hippolyta outperformed the Justice League" is the equivalent of saying that since Achilles was beaten by somebody using hitting him in the tendon, it's ridiculous that he has beaten so many other, more skilled warriors, so there must be different versions of Achilles.

I also noticed you failed to fill in some blanks, conveniently, and only on your second post did you add: "even if she is wearing armor and lasso". No, she was not wearing only that. She was also wearing the Gauntlets of Atlas and Sandals of Hermes which, as you know, amp her power considerably.

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_gauntletshermes.jpg

And her armor was stated to be able to quite impressive:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_armorimpressive.jpg

This is ridiculous now, seriously. To anybody actually reading this story, it should be made quite clear that the probes were all at the same level (they were mass-produced, in a self-perpetuating algorithm that recycled the energy from the probes destroyed by the heroes (that explosion that messes people up when they destroy the probes? yeah, that.) and creating new ones - interrupting that process was an important story-point, actually. (or do you think they just dissapeared, without reason?)

Meh. Not necesarilly directed to you, but this forum by this point is practically just a clueless-troll fest, and it's quite sad. There should be at least a few posters who actually read the story (I don't expect this from the likes of carver, but still, not everybody's him)

Those are interesting points Philosophia, and should generate fruitful discussion to those of us who'll consider it.

If I adopt your stance though, it does raise a question. Is "Probes, hard" still a likely outcome? If an all out Superman could plow through the probes, couldn't Silver Surfer/Gladiator/Quasar replicate Superman's success?

I know A>B>C logic is frowned upon, but there are no shortage of KMCers willing to argue that Silver Sufer matches or exceeds Superman's destructive capacity; when teamed with powerhouses like Gladiator and Quasar, a Marvel victory seems probable.

The Superman that plowed through the probes is a different beast compared to his normal mindset (who has a difficult time taking down a single probe), and I wouldn't consider either character on the Annihilators team anywhere close to that level. By that point, he was treated as at least a peer to the version of Doomsday he fought alongside, and that version of Doomsday is the H/P and Doomsday Wars one (who has beaten the strongest version of the JLA, casually).

Originally posted by carver9
Hippolyta took out 2 probes.

And here is the JLA after facing 2 probes.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probejla12.jpg

Originally posted by Bentley
The reason is simple, the League jobbed when they fought that Probe, isn't that hard to believe given... It's the JLA anyways. JLA are good at getting soloed.

I'm actually seeing where Philo is coming from. Superman was on a different level in that entire storyline. I can see him smashing through probes because he was going all out. Witness what he did with what has been reported as "minutes" of sundipping.

But I do think the JLA got jobbed out. However, given the fact that the lasso has now been shown to cut through their armor (not that surprising, the lasso is pretty rediculous), that means the low feat of Hippolyta is no longer a low feat.

One could point out that Supes had the "Loebforce" durlaugh. And in fairness, Loeb does push Supes pretty hard.

But..........it's not without precedent. "Even not holding back, most would argue against Superman being that far above JLA. " That's actually a major bone of contention on this board. Alot of people think Superman is overpowered or that DC gives him alot of PIS. However, how many times does someone have to do something before we stop calling PIS, and start saying that Superman really is that damn good.

Galan has a phrase for this. "When he has to be, Superman>ALL." It's not bad writing, he's Superman. It's what he does. srug

Originally posted by StyleTime
Do you believe Superman actually grew to match Doomsday's power or just his savagery? I wouldn't say those are mutually exclusive. Superman entering Doomsday's mindset is what allowed him to match his power -> Superman's power being dependent on his mindset has been consistently shown for decades now, and especially during that period.

Originally posted by StyleTime
What do you make of the Black Lightning/Supergirl/MajorLane encounter? It's unquantifiable, as we don't know how much of an increase in power Black Lightning had when he channeled the nuke (Black Lightning already being quite powerful to begin with). Either way, it seems that by this point you're trying to throw out fights and see if one of them sticks - but even if you find one example of an Imperiex Probe being taken by something that he shouldn't have (which you won't, by the way), it's asinine to think that would prove anything, by any stretch of the imagination, when there have been literally dozens of fights in the whole arc with Imperiex Probes, and neither showed their formidability faltering, or any kind of difference in power.

I won't entertain a discussion where it's not so much having an informed exchange, but the other guy just desperatley wanting for what he says to be true (Imperiex Probes were different dammit!) and grasping at straws.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Probes.

Lulz at getting beaten by H/P DD being some kind of indicator that the Annihilators will beat the Probes. How did H/P DD return after being thrown into the end of time?

He was teleported on Colu instants before he was destroyed by entropy, and Brainiac used him to attack Justice League/Superman in the Doomsday Wars arc. He was then trapped in the JLA teleporter system, until he was freed in OWAW and unleashed on the Doomsday probes.

Essentially, H/P DD, DD Wars and OWAW DD were the same version.

Ah ok thanks

Philo debate tacics is KIND OF on point but the thing about it is... he is wrong. There is nothing to aid him in the fact that an explosion that didn't even kill black lightning and he was right there in front of the probe and it killed the probe that they were fighting. THEN the probe couldn't even take out a weakened Supergirl or Black lightning.

Then we have Diana's mother completely OWNING two probes and took their heads off by tossing a ship into them.

THEN we have Aquaman (even though he was amped) taking out a probe and would have gained the victory if it wasn't for the self destruction blast after the death of the probe.

Then we have krypto briefly stalemating one... Diana killing one with a shield to the back of the head but on the other side we have 2 probes stalemating the jla... a single probe giving Superman along with Mongul hell... another probe "after blast" koing Superman... etc, etc...

Then the sad thing that really makes this debatable is... we have EVERY probe before the ones that Superman and Doomsday fought exploding when the armor was breach but the ones that Doomsday and Supes took out didn't self destruct when Superman and Doomsday took them out. It appeared as if Imperiex didn't even get the chance to power them up... which could be understandable since Superrman and Doomsday caught Imperiex off guard, during the time he was creating the Probes... hhhmmm (why didn't they explode when their armor was pierced). The explosion from one of the probes was enough to ko Supes, why wasnt he koed during his encounter in space?

Then let's also think about this... the main probe... the one that actually gave Superman and Mongul a fight and the one that Superman trained to defeat wasn't even that powerful. The reason I am saying this is... it had to put a device together to shed a planet and it was still a possibility that it wouldn't have accomplished this... the device still wasn't powerful enough. So basically, it couldn't detroy earth under its own power and again, this probe was more powerful than any probe that appeared.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I was actually just interested in hearing alternate viewpoints. I wasn't trying to convince you of anything in particular. If that's the case, it's all cool.

Originally posted by carver9
Philo debate tacics is KIND OF on point but the thing about it is... he is wrong. There is nothing to aid him in the fact that an explosion that didn't even kill black lightning and he was right there in front of the probe and it killed the probe that they were fighting. THEN the probe couldn't even take out a weakened Supergirl or Black lightning.

What? General Lane was killed by the Imperiex probe, when he detonated the nuclear engine of his tank to crack the shell of the probe, that gave Black Lightning a chance to get through its armour.. The explosion wouldn't kill Black Lightning since he can generate a powerful electro-magnetic force field.. The probe was fighting them and taking out the several armored divisions that was protecting the White House, with no ill effects to the probe. They was good as dead.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probejla15.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/i/image262f.jpg/



Dianas mother beat them by using the Lasso and her being amped, not by using a ship being tossed at them..



Been through this before.. The probe fighting Arthur underwater and with him amped was a good showing for him, even if he died.

Originally posted by carver9
Then we have krypto briefly stalemating one... Diana killing one with a shield to the back of the head but on the other side we have 2 probes stalemating the jla... a single probe giving Superman along with Mongul hell... another probe "after blast" koing Superman... etc, etc...

Krypto briefly stalemating a probe?? This look like it was stalemating to you??

http://img849.imageshack.us/i/image258.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/image259g.jpg/

Having to be saved by Superman?



Cause they was cutting loose, and they are not the JLA.. The JLA after being attacked by 2 probes.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probejla12.jpg

Originally posted by kevdude
Krypto briefly stalemating a probe?? This look like it was stalemating to you??

http://img849.imageshack.us/i/image258.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/image259g.jpg/

Having to be saved by Superman? Notice how, again, they are treated exactly the same. "You have experienced first hand what one of these things is capable of - crossref/injury file: Aquaman/Wonder Woman/Manhunter -- you get the ideea."

Originally posted by carver9
Philo debate tacics is KIND OF on point but the thing about it is... he is wrong. There is nothing to aid him in the fact that an explosion that didn't even kill black lightning and he was right there in front of the probe and it killed the probe that they were fighting. THEN the probe couldn't even take out a weakened Supergirl or Black lightning.

Then we have Diana's mother completely OWNING two probes and took their heads off by tossing a ship into them.

THEN we have Aquaman (even though he was amped) taking out a probe and would have gained the victory if it wasn't for the self destruction blast after the death of the probe.

Then we have krypto briefly stalemating one... Diana killing one with a shield to the back of the head but on the other side we have 2 probes stalemating the jla... a single probe giving Superman along with Mongul hell... another probe "after blast" koing Superman... etc, etc...

Then the sad thing that really makes this debatable is... we have EVERY probe before the ones that Superman and Doomsday fought exploding when the armor was breach but the ones that Doomsday and Supes took out didn't self destruct when Superman and Doomsday took them out. It appeared as if Imperiex didn't even get the chance to power them up... which could be understandable since Superrman and Doomsday caught Imperiex off guard, during the time he was creating the Probes... hhhmmm (why didn't they explode when their armor was pierced). The explosion from one of the probes was enough to ko Supes, why wasnt he koed during his encounter in space?

Then let's also think about this... the main probe... the one that actually gave Superman and Mongul a fight and the one that Superman trained to defeat wasn't even that powerful. The reason I am saying this is... it had to put a device together to shed a planet and it was still a possibility that it wouldn't have accomplished this... the device still wasn't powerful enough. So basically, it couldn't detroy earth under its own power and again, this probe was more powerful than any probe that appeared.

Lies make baby jesus cry.

Also, stop trolling.

Originally posted by carver9
Then let's also think about this... the main probe... the one that actually gave Superman and Mongul a fight and the one that Superman trained to defeat wasn't even that powerful. The reason I am saying this is... it had to put a device together to shed a planet and it was still a possibility that it wouldn't have accomplished this... the device still wasn't powerful enough. So basically, it couldn't detroy earth under its own power and again, this probe was more powerful than any probe that appeared.

No probe are more powerful then another, they are all created within the the huge Imperiex Constructs, the machine colonies, they give birth to better machines the "Cheche" which works and mates until a smaller Imperiex Probe is made. The main probe could have attacked Earth itself but the "Hollowing" process would not be nearly as perfect as its needed to be. This is why the 'constructs' are built, they can destroy a solar system and galaxy in mere hours.

http://img585.imageshack.us/i/image260.jpg/
http://img10.imageshack.us/i/image261r.jpg/

Mongul thought it to be impenetrable, but it turned out Superman going all out could destroy it. The probe would not waste the time and effort trying to attack Earth by itself and then quite possibly lose and be destroyed (and lose the information about what happened, gaining back only the energy) when it could return to Imperiex Prime with the information of Superman.

http://img830.imageshack.us/i/image254v.jpg/
http://img849.imageshack.us/i/image255f.jpg/
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probemongul5.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probemongul6.jpg

Originally posted by kevdude
Krypto briefly stalemating a probe?? This look like it was stalemating to you??

http://img849.imageshack.us/i/image258.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/image259g.jpg/

Having to be saved by Superman?



Cause they was cutting loose, and they are not the JLA.. The JLA after being attacked by 2 probes.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probejla12.jpg

Again, why did all the Probes before the Doomsday and Superman encounter self destruct but the ones that they fought out in space (Superman and Ddomsday)... didn't explode?

The rest of your post doesn't make sense. Superman had to use a NUMER of moves to take out the probe that crash landed in Kansas. He also had to do the same for the Probe that was in space building a device to destroy earth. Hell, he was hitting it with small asteroids. With that said, there shouldn't have been a prayer or even a detailed thought on anyone agree that a small bomb could take out a probe including black lightning taking it out.

You are right, a lasso was involved with Diana mother taking out a probe BUT she lasso their heads off with a ship. That's either a low showing for Supes (since it took a ship toss to take two out but he struggled to take out at least 3 probes that he soloed. You can use the argument that he held back but that would still be bad on his part since again, a ship toss generated more power than a combo to ko from a ship OR we can look at it as if these probes wasn't as strong as the original or some of the others) or these probes were different in power.

Krypto and that Probe was fighting before those scans... they just showed the ending of the battle.

Originally posted by carver9
Again, why did all the Probes before the Doomsday and Superman encounter self destruct but the ones that they fought out in space (Superman and Ddomsday)... didn't explode?

It didn't explode in space because it can't, there is no air so there is no explosion. The energy will drift in space until something bigger comes along to capture it (if its close enough).



A nuclear engine being detonated I wouldn't consider a small bomb, considering the probe was walking right through missiles (that was made to protect the White House)...



Ship toss?? What ship toss are you talking about?? None of the ships had anything to do with her lasso cutting through decapitating them..



Never seen that, what comic is it in?? How long did he last? Did the probe fall back any?? If not then its not a brief stalemate.

Originally posted by kevdude
It didn't explode in space because it can't, there is no air so there is no explosion. The energy will drift in space until something bigger comes along to capture it (if its close enough).



A nuclear engine being detonated I wouldn't consider a small bomb, considering the probe was walking right through missiles (that was made to protect the White House)...



Ship toss?? What ship toss are you talking about?? None of the ships had anything to do with her lasso cutting through decapitating them..



Never seen that, what comic is it in?? How long did he last? Did the probe fall back any?? If not then its not a brief stalemate.

What are you talking about? They CAN explode in space. Diana almost DIED in SPACE from an explosion from one of the probes when she hit it in the back with a shield. You are pulling straws buddy.

That wasn't a nuclear bomb... not even close to being one.

Didn't Diana mothe ship toss and took out two probes? I also remember her taking out a probe with that lasso. Two different incidents but same fight and again, she soloed some probes, she did something the ENTIRE jla couldn't do. She did something Superman during his first run couldn't do, she easily manhandled some probes. Now the question is, do you think she is above Supes?

Before Superman got their he caught the ending of kryto and the probe fight. That wasn't a fight that just started.

Originally posted by carver9
Didn't Diana mothe ship toss and took out two probes? I also remember her taking out a probe with that lasso. Two different incidents but same fight and again, she soloed some probes, she did something the ENTIRE jla couldn't do. She did something Superman during his first run couldn't do, she easily manhandled some probes. Now the question is, do you think she is above Supes?

Yes if he is going all out he is above her....



So that was the entire fight then?? One page?? Ok I got it, its not anything like a stalemate.. Everything else you have brought up has been answered, doesn't matter if you don't like the answers or not.

spam_laser



Yup, good thing we have the comics to show and know otherwise.

I'll point out that we still separate other characters by performances even if in-plot they're not supposed to have a big change in power. I.e. Virtue and Vice Despero.

Annihilators win

What's the argument about Krypto?

Carver is claiming Krypto was able to stalemate a probe on his own.

Q99: Well, I do agree with that. But Philo raises an interesting point. Plus, Hippolyta was amped a fair amount given her armor and artifacts.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Carver is claiming Krypto was able to stalemate a probe on his own.

Q99: Well, I do agree with that. But Philo raises an interesting point. Plus, Hippolyta was amped a fair amount given her armor and artifacts.

lol. He made some effort, sure, but it was always portrayed as him being plucky and yet out-classed.

Superman and DD were the only ones shown to be able to take on multiple probes and tank their explosions iirc.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

Q99: Well, I do agree with that. But Philo raises an interesting point. Plus, Hippolyta was amped a fair amount given her armor and artifacts.

Neither armor nor lasso strength-amp, though. Hm, the lasso does sometimes show impressive cutting properties, so I guess it could've been that...

Originally posted by kevdude
Yes if he is going all out he is above her....



So that was the entire fight then?? One page?? Ok I got it, its not anything like a stalemate.. Everything else you have brought up has been answered, doesn't matter if you don't like the answers or not.

spam_laser



Yup, good thing we have the comics to show and know otherwise.

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Why didn't the probes that Doomsday and Superman fought detonate after being damaged?

When you answer that, think about this. If one of those probes would have detonate it would have seriously injured or koed him since we had a previous Probe (the one that landed in Kansas) explosion koing him.

Your debate tactic has a lot of holes.

Answer my questions please.

Originally posted by -Pr-
lol. He made some effort, sure, but it was always portrayed as him being plucky and yet out-classed.

Superman and DD were the only ones shown to be able to take on multiple probes and tank their explosions iirc.

You forgot about Diana mother... she took on multiple of probes as well.

Originally posted by carver9
You didn't answer any of my questions.

Why didn't the probes that Doomsday and Superman fought detonate after being damaged?

When you answer that, think about this. If one of those probes would have detonate it would have seriously injured or koed him since we had a previous Probe (the one that landed in Kansas) explosion koing him.

Your debate tactic has a lot of holes.

Answer my questions please.

When was Superman ko'd by a Probe exploding? Issue number/scans?

Also, Superman knew how to beat probes without making them explode. he stated as such.

Originally posted by carver9
You forgot about Diana mother... she took on multiple of probes as well.

Maybe, I don't remember. Was she tanking their explosions too?

Also, Krypto got his ass kicked, though i assume you just forgot that fight.

Originally posted by -Pr-
When was Superman ko'd by a Probe exploding? Issue number/scans?

Also, Superman knew how to beat probes without making them explode. he stated as such.



Maybe, I don't remember. Was she tanking their explosions too?

Also, Krypto got his ass kicked, though i assume you just forgot that fight.

Doomsday also learned how to prevent them from exploding to huh?

Superman was koed by the probe that landed in Kansas. A kid (or a soldier... forgot) is screaming Supermans name while he was in the hole and he was sceaming it for a prolong amount of time. Superman then wakes up, fly out the hole and say "how long was I out for".

When did Superman state that he learned how to prevent them frm exploding?

Superman never tanked their explosions but she did (dianas mother) handle some licks from them pretty good.

We don't know how Krypto did since the entire fight was off panel. Superman did compliment Krypto for doing a good job fighting the Probe.

Originally posted by carver9
Doomsday also learned how to prevent them from exploding to huh?

Superman was koed by the probe that landed in Kansas. A kid (or a soldier... forgot) is screaming Supermans name while he was in the hole and he was sceaming it for a prolong amount of time. Superman then wakes up, fly out the hole and say "how long was I out for".

When did Superman state that he learned how to prevent them frm exploding?

Superman never tanked their explosions but she did (dianas mother) handle some licks from them pretty good.

We don't know how Krypto did since the entire fight was off panel. Superman did compliment Krypto for doing a good job fighting the Probe.

that's beside the point. besides, there was energy coming from their bodies anyway, and we know superman can tank their blasts.

umm... no. the kid calls superman when he first arrives, and thinks the probe is dead. then when he goes back down in to the hole he fights the probe. superman is in the ground when the explosion happens, then a soldier calls for him. then supergirl arrives. then superman comes out of the hole. there was no mention of him being knocked out.

when he saved aquaman in orbit from a probe.

Superman did. On panel.

No, the entire fight wasn't off panel.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii378/prsupes/th_Superboyv3091-17.jpg http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii378/prsupes/th_Superboyv3091-18.jpg

Krypto was stated to be losing by the narrative. He didn't stalemate at all.

I suggest you re-read these comics.

Originally posted by carver9
You didn't answer any of my questions.

Why didn't the probes that Doomsday and Superman fought detonate after being damaged?

When you answer that, think about this. If one of those probes would have detonate it would have seriously injured or koed him since we had a previous Probe (the one that landed in Kansas) explosion koing him.

Your debate tactic has a lot of holes.

Answer my questions please.

Try to look how the Imperiex energy is not exploding but drifting in space after there heads taken off.. The energy even drifts with Superman after he is away from the probe.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probesupes10.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probesupes11.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probesupes12.jpg

Superman states "the armor will crack--but it's for energy containment", and then Wonder Woman with her shield slams it down cracking the probes armor and it explodes nearly killing her. Also note if Superman had not cauterized the probes arm it would have exploded, threating Arthur.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8480/image263s.th.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3271/image264n.th.jpg

The DD/Superman attacks on the probes was different from the JLA attacks.

It's alot like Imperiex Prime himself. Even if you crack his armor, you still have to tank the big bang that follows it. And even then Imperiex reforms himself after awhile.

Originally posted by kevdude
Try to look how the Imperiex energy is not exploding but drifting in space after there heads taken off.. The energy even drifts with Superman after he is away from the probe.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probesupes10.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probesupes11.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probesupes12.jpg

Superman states "the armor will crack--but it's for energy containment", and then Wonder Woman with her shield slams it down cracking the probes armor and it explodes nearly killing her. Also note if Superman had not cauterized the probes arm it would have exploded, threating Arthur.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8480/image263s.th.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3271/image264n.th.jpg

The DD/Superman attacks on the probes was different from the JLA attacks.

Your argument still fails since EVERY Probe exploded except the ones Doomsday and Supes fought. Its no way to counter that and again (Pr, Superman was koed), Superman was out of commition with the xplosion that took place with the probe that landed in Kansas.

Like I stated before, Superman and Doomsday ran up on Imperiex during the time he was preparing his probes (which was shown when he had all of the probes surrounding him while he was placing energy into them), so it would make sense that he basically threw these probes at Superman and Doomsday as a stall (even though they were not at their max).

I want to see where Superman stated that he countered the explosions from the probes and even then, its questionable because Doomsday was punching through them as well and they didn't explode.

THEN you post a scan of the energy exploding in space when Diana cracked the armor which discredit your previous argument.

First you state that since they were in space that was the reason the energy wasn't shot out of the Superman/Doomsday probes but now you changed your entire stance since I proved that wrong with the Diana showing.

Make up your mind buddy.

a) Superman was not ko'd. There's nothing in the comic that even hints at it. If you disagree, then post what you're talking about.

b) He had learned to stop them exploding. It wasn't mentioned that they had stopped exploding, and it was mentioned that they were the same Probes in space that Superman had fought on Earth. Ergo, they either exploded and they were tanked, or they simply didn't explode. Either way, they were the same Probes, as there's no evidence to the contrary.

c) Diana's mother was killed by a Probe exploding. Not exactly as good as you were making out, was she...

Carver, you're not exactly on a solid foundation here. You're cherry picking, and either support your argument, or simply drop it. Repeating yourself without proof (when I and others have backed up our arguments) isn't going to win you any debates.

Is it wrong that I get turned on when PR and Carver go at it?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Is it wrong that I get turned on when PR and Carver go at it? on several levels, yes

Annihilators win.

Originally posted by -Pr-
a) Superman was not ko'd. There's nothing in the comic that even hints at it. If you disagree, then post what you're talking about.

b) He had learned to stop them exploding. It wasn't mentioned that they had stopped exploding, and it was mentioned that they were the same Probes in space that Superman had fought on Earth. Ergo, they either exploded and they were tanked, or they simply didn't explode. Either way, they were the same Probes, as there's no evidence to the contrary.

c) Diana's mother was killed by a Probe exploding. Not exactly as good as you were making out, was she...

Carver, you're not exactly on a solid foundation here. You're cherry picking, and either support your argument, or simply drop it. Repeating yourself without proof (when I and others have backed up our arguments) isn't going to win you any debates.

If anything, I think all of us are cherry picking but since you want to get off of the topic, we can. I feel like I won this anyway. I made kevdude change his stance at least 4 times.

That's sound like a stomp to me and I am satisfied.

Originally posted by carver9
If anything, I think all of us are cherry picking but since you want to get off of the topic, we can. I feel like I won this anyway. I made kevdude change his stance at least 4 times.

That's sound like a stomp to me and I am satisfied.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Concession accepted.

Huh?

I never gave up. You all didn't even prove my argument wrong.

By the way, Diana mother didn't die from a probe, she died from the re-entry heat when she entered the atmosphere and the ace in the hole was when she hit the planet (the impact).

Originally posted by carver9
Huh?

I never gave up. You all didn't even prove my argument wrong.

By the way, Diana mother didn't die from a probe, she died from the re-entry heat when she entered the atmosphere and the ace in the hole was when she hit the planet (the impact).

I've already posted scans which contradict several of your points, rendering them invalid, so yes, I did.

You didn't prove your own argument right at all, though. You didn't back up any part of it. You said Superman was knocked out when he wasn't (and didn't back it up with scans), and you said that Krypto's fight was off-panel (which it wasn't). And he didn't stalemate the Probe.

Hyppolita (sp?) was already inside the atmosphere when she pulled the head off of the Probe. She had already proven herself able to withstand the heat of re-entry to a point.

Are you going to post proof or aren't you?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've already posted scans which contradict several of your points, rendering them invalid, so yes, I did.

You didn't prove your own argument right at all, though. You didn't back up any part of it. You said Superman was knocked out when he wasn't (and didn't back it up with scans), and you said that Krypto's fight was off-panel (which it wasn't). And he didn't stalemate the Probe.

Hyppolita (sp?) was already inside the atmosphere when she pulled the head off of the Probe. She had already proven herself able to withstand the heat of re-entry to a point.

Are you going to post proof or aren't you?

Went from talking about how DD/Superman took out the probes and how they didn't explode then showed what happened with WW and Hippolyta and the probe's they took out (both different). And Hippolyta your right wasn't even in outerspace and somehow I am changing the story and what I said? I've already showed carver9 the proof and he hasn't shown any for him..

Originally posted by kevdude
Went from talking about how DD/Superman took out the probes and how they didn't explode then showed what happened with WW and Hippolyta and the probe's they took out (both different). And Hippolyta your right wasn't even in outerspace and somehow I am changing the story and what I said? I've already showed carver9 the proof and he hasn't shown any for him..

I have been debating straight from my phone... my computer crashed. I plan on getting one soon so that I can start posting more scans like I use to. I don't have a problem with posting evidence... that's one of my main speciaties... my nickname.

Originally posted by carver9
I have been debating straight from my phone... my computer crashed. I plan on getting one soon so that I can start posting more scans like I use to. I don't have a problem with posting evidence... that's one of my main speciaties... my nickname.

You're called "Mister Evidence" ?

Originally posted by -Pr-
You're called "Mister Evidence" ?

Originally posted by carver9
I have been debating straight from my phone... my computer crashed. I plan on getting one soon so that I can start posting more scans like I use to. I don't have a problem with posting evidence... that's one of my main speciaties... my nickname.
You're always on the phone or at work when you get called out, Mr Evidence.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You're always on the phone or at work when you get called out, Mr Evidence.

I work from a computer at work (and get on kmc) and at home I debate with you all from my phone. That's why you usually see me editing my post 90% of the time.

I look at it this way. THE PROBES WERE ALL INTENTED BY THE WRITERS TO BE THE SAME IN POWER.

The reason they seemed to vary in power is the very same reason all comic characters seem to vary in power (low and high showings). But the intention is clearly that all the probes have the same power.

With that said, using only the high showing probes and disregarding the low showing probes then the probes win. Using only low showing probes and disregarding high showing probes then the annihilators wins. Using the average of the probes (6 high and 6 low ones) then it's about even. This is all my IMO, so it's still up for debate.

Actually, and mark this down, this is the FIRST post from H1a8 that I've ever agreed with. Welcome back, and I hope all your posts are this good and fair.

Originally posted by h1a8
I look at it this way. THE PROBES WERE ALL INTENTED BY THE WRITERS TO BE THE SAME IN POWER.

The reason they seemed to vary in power is the very same reason all comic characters seem to vary in power (low and high showings). But the intention is clearly that all the probes have the same power.

With that said, using only the high showing probes and disregarding the low showing probes then the probes win. Using only low showing probes and disregarding high showing probes then the annihilators wins. Using the average of the probes (6 high and 6 low ones) then it's about even. This is all my IMO, so it's still up for debate.

Good post but I see it like this... if Superman and Doomsday can take them out with ease I could see this squad doing the same thing if they were put in Supes and DD shoes since I think majority of the peeps on the team are either equal to or superior to Supes.

Hell, Bill was wrecking planets during a scuffle with stardust and Gladiator in his own right has annihilated planets along with other members of the annihilator... so punching through probes shouldn't be hard at all... especially with the power output these people could generate.

Originally posted by carver9
Like I stated before, Superman and Doomsday ran up on Imperiex during the time he was preparing his probes (which was shown when he had all of the probes surrounding him while he was placing energy into them), so it would make sense that he basically threw these probes at Superman and Doomsday as a stall (even though they were not at their max).



About this, the probes already had energy in them and Imperiex is not placing energy in them either, he is powering up to blast Superman and Doomsday for the kill blast, the probes are standing by because Imperiex Prime's full attention is on both of them..

Originally posted by kevdude
About this, the probes already had energy in them and Imperiex is not placing energy in them either, he is powering up to blast Superman and Doomsday for the kill blast, the probes are standing by because Imperiex Prime's full attention is on both of them..

We are talking about 2 different instances. Imperiex before Superman and Doomsday got there already had these probes surrounding him, placing power into them. Superman and Doomsday get there moments later which resulted in him releasing the probes on them.

Those Probes were nothing like the previous probes imo... not even close.

Originally posted by carver9
We are talking about 2 different instances. Imperiex before Superman and Doomsday got there already had these probes surrounding him, placing power into them. Superman and Doomsday get there moments later which resulted in him releasing the probes on them.

Those Probes were nothing like the previous probes imo... not even close.

Righttt, thats in no way how the probes are made. Heck the probes aren't even IN the energy field that the Imperiex rods are in they are infront of it!! We can clearly see other times the probes during battles doing the same thing. It's like pulling teeth with you about this.. bash

Originally posted by kevdude
Righttt, thats in no way how the probes are made. Heck the probes aren't even IN the energy field that the Imperiex rods are in they are infront of it!! We can clearly see other times the probes during battles doing the same thing. It's like pulling teeth with you about this.. bash

Lol... just let me win this and agree with me and let's move on. I asked you a simple question about this subject and you made up stuff.

I asked you why the probes that Superman and Doomsday fought didn't self destruct. You then state that they didn't explode because they were in space. I then bring up the one Diana kille in space exploding along with the probes that diana mother killed in space.

You then state that Superman learned a way of preventing them from exploding and then I ask "why didn't the ones the Doomsday kill not self destruct" and you had no explanation.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... just let me win this and agree with me and let's move on. I asked you a simple question about this subject and you made up stuff.

I asked you why the probes that Superman and Doomsday fought didn't self destruct. You then state that they didn't explode because they were in space. I then bring up the one Diana kille in space exploding along with the probes that diana mother killed in space.

You then state that Superman learned a way of preventing them from exploding and then I ask "why didn't the ones the Doomsday kill not self destruct" and you had no explanation.

Whatever you say Carver9. Done going over and over about this wasting time.

Btw Probes win.

Originally posted by carver9
We are talking about 2 different instances. Imperiex before Superman and Doomsday got there already had these probes surrounding him, placing power into them. Superman and Doomsday get there moments later which resulted in him releasing the probes on them.

Those Probes were nothing like the previous probes imo... not even close.

Superman and Doomsday were in space for days if not weeks (this was stated ON PANEL). Imperiex came later. So yes, same probes.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman and Doomsday were in space for days if not weeks (this was stated ON PANEL). Imperiex came later. So yes, same probes.

You only answered a portion of my post.

Let's also add this note... Mongul Jr training towards Supes was basically to get him completely out of the "holding back" mindset.

During their venture in space where both Supes AND Mongul faced the Probe, Supes gave the probe his all and was basically doing things with his powers that he never done before and he still didn't put a scratch on THAT particular probe "while going all out".

He then face Probes with the aid of Doomsday and he wasn't ant different than when he face the first probe that he didn't put a scratch on but yet he was able to take them out with ease.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by carver9
You only answered a portion of my post.

Let's also add this note... Mongul Jr training towards Supes was basically to get him completely out of the "holding back" mindset.

During their venture in space where both Supes AND Mongul faced the Probe, Supes gave the probe his all and was basically doing things with his powers that he never done before and he still didn't put a scratch on THAT particular probe "while going all out".

He then face Probes with the aid of Doomsday and he wasn't ant different than when he face the first probe that he didn't put a scratch on but yet he was able to take them out with ease.

Doesn't make sense to me.

And Superman stopped holding back when he was in space with Doomsday and the Probe.

Actually no. Superman was still learning, and didn't "give his all".

If you read the comic, it would make sense. It blatantly states ON PANEL that the probes were a challenge for him before he changed his mindset.

"As his "partner" is truly description personified, so has be become. And from that transformation... SUCCESS. Far away from the humanity he holds in such high measure, where the probes seemed far more deadly, he has cut loose. Subsequently, the probes have offered little resistance. He can't help but think... If he'd only come to this conclusion on Earth, how many might have been saved...?"

That's word for word what's on panel. Narration states that before this point, Superman was holding back in every fight he had with Probes. When he cuts loose, he has less trouble with them.

This is blatantly stated ON PANEL. I don't know how you can argue that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
And Superman stopped holding back when he was in space with Doomsday and the Probe.

Actually no. Superman was still learning, and didn't "give his all".

If you read the comic, it would make sense. It blatantly states ON PANEL that the probes were a challenge for him before he changed his mindset.

"As his "partner" is truly description personified, so has be become. And from that transformation... SUCCESS. Far away from the humanity he holds in such high measure, where the probes seemed far more deadly, he has cut loose. Subsequently, the probes have offered little resistance. He can't help but think... If he'd only come to this conclusion on Earth, how many might have been saved...?"

That's word for word what's on panel. Narration states that before this point, Superman was holding back in every fight he had with Probes. When he cuts loose, he has less trouble with them.

This is blatantly stated ON PANEL. I don't know how you can argue that.

This isn't about Superman, what I am saying is that the probes were inconsistent. Diana mother took out 2 probes with a ship to the head... inconsistent.

Black Lightning took out a probe with a small bomb... inconsistent.

Aquaman took out a probe but the entire JLA/JSA\Titans struggled to take out a single probe.

Diana along with the jla almost died facing two probes but again, Black lightning can take out one along with Dianas mother.

I agree, there is no way to argue against what you posted but there is no way to argue against my above post.

Originally posted by carver9
This isn't about Superman, what I am saying is that the probes were inconsistent. Diana mother took out 2 probes with a ship to the head... inconsistent.

Black Lightning took out a probe with a small bomb... inconsistent.

Aquaman took out a probe but the entire JLA/JSA\Titans struggled to take out a single probe.

Diana along with the jla almost died facing two probes but again, Black lightning can take out one along with Dianas mother.

I agree, there is no way to argue against what you posted but there is no way to argue against my above post.

Black Lightning had himself, a nuke (built with B13 tech) and Supergirl helping him.

Aquaman had an insane amount of magic.

No, they couldn't. Your twisting things.

Actually yes, there is, because you're twisting what happened on panel.

Any inconsistencies the probes had doesn't take away from their average, which was established as being herald level.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Black Lightning had himself, a nuke (built with B13 tech) and Supergirl helping him.

Aquaman had an insane amount of magic.

No, they couldn't. Your twisting things.

Actually yes, there is, because you're twisting what happened on panel.

Any inconsistencies the probes had doesn't take away from their average, which was established as being herald level.

I agree... they "are" Herald level but I just think they were inconsistent.

Pr, we are not getting anywhere with this... we are going back and forth with the same thing.

Aquaman, even amped can't generate more power than the entire jla.

Diana mother can't generate more power on a physical level than the Jla.

I'm going to leave it be though because we are not getting anywhere.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree... they "are" Herald level but I just think they were inconsistent.

Pr, we are not getting anywhere with this... we are going back and forth with the same thing.

Aquaman, even amped can't generate more power than the entire jla.

Diana mother can't generate more power on a physical level than the Jla.

I'm going to leave it be though because we are not getting anywhere.

Nobody said he could generate more power than the JLA. Nobody said the probes could either.

The probes' strength isn't the same as their durability. That should be obvious.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Nobody said he could generate more power than the JLA. Nobody said the probes could either.

The probes' strength isn't the same as their durability. That should be obvious.

That's what I am getting at though.

A GL was shooting it, flash, wonder woman punching it, martian manhunter, etc, etc... and did nothing to it. The only time something is done is when Diana sneak attack one to the back of the head but yet aquaman takes one out with a blast and a stab.

Let's not get to Diana mother... if the probes were as powerful as people are placing them, she had no right taking one, two, or three out.

Originally posted by carver9
That's what I am getting at though.

A GL was shooting it, flash, wonder woman punching it, martian manhunter, etc, etc... and did nothing to it. The only time something is done is when Diana sneak attack one to the back of the head but yet aquaman takes one out with a blast and a stab.

Let's not get to Diana mother... if the probes were as powerful as people are placing them, she had no right taking one, two, or three out.

aquaman with his armour and his trident underwater is herald level, with an insane magical boost.

the JLA were fighting multiple probes, not just one. martian manhunter was taken down off panel by a probe that we didn't even see. aquaman and diana were fighting one (and in space, aquaman with no staff isn't going to be that useful anyway). the one that zapped flash had been fighting plastic man of all people.

flash didn't punch any probes. kyle's shield was already close to breaking when we saw him fighting alongside wally. they were in a long battle; we just saw the end of it.

the jla were fighting MULTIPLE PROBES, just to be clear.

carver, you're one of many people who've been quick to point out the difference between blunt damage and piercing damage.

what ship are you talking about with Hyppolita?

Bump

Philo.. You don't know how proud I am bro...*sniff*..

Lol. Carver has always been like this, I see.

There is some truth to what Carver said.

It's pretty much a law of the universe at this point that when minion gets introduced, their power will be much greater at that point than by the end or climax of story. With that said, I'd say Imperiex Probes were the ones that stayed pretty consistent.

The average easily lands them on herald level. Superman was amped up for this event/arc just because he DC's main go to guy. Superman beating on dozens of probes doesn't take away from their power bur just goes to show that Superman was that much stronger than the other members of JLA.

I'd say the 12 probes can beat the Annihilators

Every single Annihilator would be an underdog 1v1 against a Probe. I'd give Bill the best chance of getting a win because his hammer is best positioned to exploit the one Probe weakness: brittleness. But he'd still be an underdog.

So unless the Annihilators can find some way to synergize their powers, they are in deep trouble here. They are going to get destroyed. They'd be underdogs against 4 Probes.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've already posted scans which contradict several of your points, rendering them invalid, so yes, I did.

You didn't prove your own argument right at all, though. You didn't back up any part of it. You said Superman was knocked out when he wasn't (and didn't back it up with scans), and you said that Krypto's fight was off-panel (which it wasn't). And he didn't stalemate the Probe.

Hyppolita (sp?) was already inside the atmosphere when she pulled the head off of the Probe. She had already proven herself able to withstand the heat of re-entry to a point.

Are you going to post proof or aren't you?

We are still waiting.

Those were the days.