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Cis and pis are off. Both at full power.

Who wins?

Fernus.

The only reason Fernus was capable of defeating the Justice League on his own was because of the fact that they all, for the most part, had their vulnerabilities to telepathy; hence the reason Batman re-enlisted Plastic Man after helping him get back his powers and mind-set.

So, this brings me to my point; Apocalypse; in addition to being virtually immune to telepathy (unless there is some bull shit plot device like in Search for Cyclops when Jean used her bond and 'love' with Cyclops to get in Apoc's head and rip out his essence from Cyke), can do everything Plastic Man (Plastic Man was essential in defeating Fernus) did during the Trial by Fire arc, and much, much more.

Apocalypse imo, but good fight.

If Apocalypse ever demonstrated Plastic Man's capacity for instantly shape shifting, as well as Plastic Man's immunity to damn near everything (nowadays anyways) that may be relevant.

Plastic Man had the success that he did against Fernus because (according to Bats, anyways) Plastic Man was inspiration given form- that is, shape shifting is his second nature and he can immediately, apparently unconsciously assume a great many forms, which he demonstrated in the fight. Apocalypse has never shown to shape shift so fast, with such an immediate and diverse array of forms.

Further, Plastic Man was only able to occupy Fernus physically while the rest of the team actually worked to overpower him. Since Apocalypse lacks Plastic Man's ability to stalemate and doesn't have the rest of the Justice League with him, any comparison between that battle and this theoretical one falls short.

Finally, while Fernus required telepathy to defeat the entire Justice League, he's not up against them here, so...

Fernus wins for all the same reasons that Martian Manhunter would, only more so.

Originally posted by Existere
If Apocalypse ever demonstrated Plastic Man's capacity for instantly shape shifting, as well as Plastic Man's immunity to damn near everything (nowadays anyways) that may be relevant.

Plastic Man had the success that he did against Fernus because (according to Bats, anyways) Plastic Man was inspiration given form- that is, shape shifting is his second nature and he can immediately, apparently unconsciously assume a great many forms, which he demonstrated in the fight. Apocalypse has never shown to shape shift so fast, with such an immediate and diverse array of forms.

Further, Plastic Man was only able to occupy Fernus physically while the rest of the team actually worked to overpower him. Since Apocalypse lacks Plastic Man's ability to stalemate and doesn't have the rest of the Justice League with him, any comparison between that battle and this theoretical one falls short.

Finally, while Fernus required telepathy to defeat the entire Justice League, he's not up against them here, so...

Fernus wins for all the same reasons that Martian Manhunter would, only more so.



i like this new guy. he should post more.

*snickers* New guy?

He seems cool.

He seems old and perveted to me

Originally posted by Existere
If Apocalypse ever demonstrated Plastic Man's capacity for instantly shape shifting, as well as Plastic Man's immunity to damn near everything (nowadays anyways) that may be relevant.

Apocalypse has increased his size instantly on panel, assumed the form of others, literally blown himself up and then regenerated back, shape-shifted parts of his body into functioning weapons, turned himself into a jet, etc.

Apocalypse' shape-shifting is better than Plastic Man's from what I've seen.



That makes no sense. I know Batman says it in JLA 88, but what does it really mean? Plastic Man is inspiration given form so all of a sudden he's immune to telepathy? WTF.




So, him stretching hims body, turning himself into a half-octopus-half-crab-half-squid creature, turning one of his hands into one of those melee weapons (like Apocalypse did in Dracula vs Apocalypse) is beyond Apocalypse's capabilities?

Let's take a look at Apocalypse's shape-shifting feats during his fight with Ikaris in New Eternals: Apocalypse Now shall we?

Here, he turns himself into a jet (instant):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph5.png

*Note: I'd like to see Plastic Man do anything as impressive as that.

Opens up a hole in his body in order to avoid Ikaris' blast (instant) in addition to making his arm bigger (instant):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph3.png

Turns his torso into a sharp-ass razor (instant):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph4.png

There you have it; that's one fight in which Apocalypse diversely and immediately shape-shifts his body to suit his purposes.



And Plastic Man is much weaker than Apocalypse and lacks his mental powers. Not to mention that the JLA were virtually useless against him throughout the majority of that story om their own. Iirc, all they did was get J'onn to gain back control over his body and become the dominant personality. So it's all good.



So what's Fernus going to do here? Apocalypse possesses all of his powers and more.

I'm one of Poccy's biggest defenders on this board.

And even I'm not giving him the win here. Plastic Man is plastic. You can't use telepathy on plastic. He's saying the shapeshifter and plastic nature makes it impossible to get a lock on his mind for a telepathic assault. Kinda out of left field, but ok.

However..........Plastic Man is almost completely invulnerable to most kinds of attacks. It's incredibly hard to hurt him.

This is irrelevant though. I was willing to argue Apoc vs. MM in the past, I'm not willing to argue against a bloodlusted MM with access to his full genetic potential.

So you think Fernus' telepathy is going to affect Apocalypse?

Apocalypse's TP is good. It's not that good. It's not just TP. It's everything. He has all of MM's powers, but stronger, bloodlusted with no limits on what he can do, and sadly, his feats are just better. He beat up the JLA.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
The only reason Fernus was capable of defeating the Justice League on his own was because of the fact that they all, for the most part, had their vulnerabilities to telepathy;


He also used superspeed, invisibility, and phasing to physically savage the league.


Fernus gets my vote pretty handily.

When has Apocalypse been mind-raped? Powerful telepaths like X, Cable, and rookie Exodus have tried, but what success have any of them had? Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that Apocalypse can mind-rape Fernus, I'm just saying that he can't be mind-raped here.

How was Fernus more powerful tha J'onz? He was just a more evolved and ruthless psyche of the Martian Manhunter as far as I recall.

As explained before, he used his telepathy on a weak incarnation of the JLA which were shown to have nearly no tp resistance throughout the story. Meh.

Fernus.

Originally posted by TheTyrant

How was Fernus More powerful tha J'onz? He was just a more evolved and ruthless psyche of the Martian Manhunter as far as I recall.


He was using power combinations casually which normally would run J'onn dry.

J'onn has less endurance than most of the other league power houses, stuff like a major telepathic assault can make him collapse like when Known Man showed up, he TP KOed a team then fell over. Fernus's was effectively... endless. He TP KOs a team, some known for telepathy resistance, and keeps them mentally locked down while making himself a hundred feet tall and throwing down physically at the same time.

Stuff that J'onn could keep up for 10 seconds (like blitz/invisibility/phasing), Fernus did against the entire league for several minutes.


I think it's the fire. It fueled him. Fernus is not just ruthless, but was sort of J'onn's equivalent of Superman fighting close to the sun and supercharging.

I'm not too sure about that. Ostrander's MM was practically as formidable as Fernus, IMO.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Apocalypse' shape-shifting is better than Plastic Man's from what I've seen.



then..... you've not really seen plas. cuz it's not even a debatable point tbh.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm not too sure about that. Ostrander's MM was practically as formidable as Fernus, IMO.

Well above he'd been elsewhere in that JLA run, and well above his peers.

I mean, you had a situation where a GL was immune to telepathy for a short time and the only real option he had was to *run*.

More important: J'onn beats Apoc too.

To quote the Narrator during the Fernus saga

"Plastic man is inspiration given form"



Fernus wins against Poccy

Originally posted by The Nuul


He seems cool.

I'm in love with him.

Originally posted by Existere
If Apocalypse ever demonstrated Plastic Man's capacity for instantly shape shifting, as well as Plastic Man's immunity to damn near everything (nowadays anyways) that may be relevant.

Plastic Man had the success that he did against Fernus because (according to Bats, anyways) Plastic Man was inspiration given form- that is, shape shifting is his second nature and he can immediately, apparently unconsciously assume a great many forms, which he demonstrated in the fight. Apocalypse has never shown to shape shift so fast, with such an immediate and diverse array of forms.

Further, Plastic Man was only able to occupy Fernus physically while the rest of the team actually worked to overpower him. Since Apocalypse lacks Plastic Man's ability to stalemate and doesn't have the rest of the Justice League with him, any comparison between that battle and this theoretical one falls short.

Finally, while Fernus required telepathy to defeat the entire Justice League, he's not up against them here, so...

Fernus wins for all the same reasons that Martian Manhunter would, only more so.
You got the stuff, kid.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Apocalypse's TP is good. It's not that good. It's not just TP.

Since when does Apocalypse manufacture toilet paper?

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4834/32256504.jpg

Fernus is every bit as capable as the Martian, and then some with no apparent weakness.

Poccy chances of winning are slim to none. Its not just the TP/TK, Fernus is too fast - too strong period.

Originally posted by leonidas


i like this new guy. he should post more.
Originally posted by -K-M-
*snickers* New guy? Originally posted by Omega Vision
You got the stuff, kid.

Well, I missed you guys too.



Originally posted by TheTyrant
Apocalypse' shape-shifting is better than Plastic Man's from what I've seen.

Vs. Fernus

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/4581/fernushe6.th.jpghttp://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3842/fernus2bw8.th.jpghttp://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4802/fernus3ws5.th.jpghttp://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4554/fernus4xb7.th.jpghttp://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3857/fernus5yz2.th.jpghttp://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1517/fernus6sv0.th.jpghttp://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4251/fernus7zi0.th.jpg


You're welcome to attempt to provide examples to support the notion that Apocalypse could keep up in a shapeshifting battle of that magnitude.

Originally posted by The Nuul


He seems cool. Originally posted by -K-M-
He seems old and perveted to me Originally posted by Don Corleone
I'm in love with him.

D'awwwww

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Here, he turns himself into a jet (instant):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph5.png

*Note: I'd like to see Plastic Man do anything as impressive as that.

http://img518.imageshack.us/f/morphwartn0.jpg/

jockey

To be fair, Apocalypse can matter manipulate his body in ways Plastic Man cannot. For example, chemicals, specific alloys, weapons, etc. But in terms of combat shape-shifting? No comparison, Plastic Man is hands down better.

Seems pretty open and shut to me.

Apocalypse has pretty much no advantages here.

Yep, Poccy is outclassed in everyway that matters.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
To be fair, Apocalypse can matter manipulate his body in ways Plastic Man cannot. For example, chemicals, specific alloys, weapons, etc. But in terms of combat shape-shifting? No comparison, Plastic Man is hands down better. Well... Plastic Man's turned himself into a fully functional tank before, as well as a variety of other weapons and stuff. It's always pretty ambiguous.

Regardless though, in this context it's not particularly important. He just needed to physically occupy Fernus, which his powerset is ideal for.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Since when does Apocalypse manufacture toilet paper?

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4834/32256504.jpg

Then how would explain Apocalypse surviving after having his astral form get destroyed by Cable in Search for Cyclops? Even Ozymandias stated that Apocalypse had died for good.
Originally posted by Existere
Well, I missed you guys too.





Vs. Fernus

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/4581/fernushe6.th.jpghttp://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3842/fernus2bw8.th.jpghttp://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4802/fernus3ws5.th.jpghttp://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4554/fernus4xb7.th.jpghttp://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3857/fernus5yz2.th.jpghttp://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1517/fernus6sv0.th.jpghttp://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4251/fernus7zi0.th.jpg


You're welcome to attempt to provide examples to support the notion that Apocalypse could keep up in a shapeshifting battle of that magnitude.


Apocalypse pretty much did the same in his fight with Ikaris. He stretched his body, made a hole inside of himself, turned chest into a knife, and after the conclusion of the fight, transformed himself into a jet. And you really didn't have to post those scans as I referenced to everything Plastic Man did during that fight in my previous response to you; "So, him stretching his body, turning himself into a half-octopus-half-crab-half-squid creature, turning one of his hands into one of those melee weapons (like Apocalypse did in Dracula vs Apocalypse) is beyond Apocalypse's capabilities?"

Originally posted by TheTyrant

Apocalypse pretty much did the same in his fight with Ikaris. He stretched his body, made a hole inside of himself, turned chest into a knife, and after the conclusion of the fight, transformed himself into a jet. And you really didn't have to post those scans as I referenced to everything Plastic Man did during that fight in my previous response to you; "So, him stretching his body, turning himself into a half-octopus-half-crab-half-squid creature, turning one of his hands into one of those melee weapons (like Apocalypse did in Dracula vs Apocalypse) is beyond Apocalypse's capabilities?" lolwut?

http://img440.imageshack.us/f/fernus4xb7.jpg/

In that panel alone, Eel's assuming a ridiculous number of forms at the same time. In context of the battle, we can see that he's constantly changing each of those forms in order to keep up with Fernus' telepathy-aided super shifting.

In terms of how quickly he shifts his body to adapt to a situation, and how varied and diverse his forms can be, the battle shows that Eel's in a class of his own.

Yes, Apocalypse made a hole inside himself... but Eel does that damn near every single appearance. Yes, Apocalypse made a knife out of his chest, but Plastic Man is making a knife in addition to dozens of other things in that panel alone. Yes, Apocalypse stretched himself, but are you kidding? That's Plastic Man's thing.

This whole tangent was brought up when the argument was made that Apocalypse could replicate what Plastic Man pulled off in the Fernus fight, correct?

You haven't shown me anything on the caliber of that scan alone, much less the whole fight.

Step up yo game.

Originally posted by Existere
lolwut?

http://img440.imageshack.us/f/fernus4xb7.jpg/

In that panel alone, Eel's assuming a ridiculous number of forms at the same time. In context of the battle, we can see that he's constantly changing each of those forms in order to keep up with Fernus' telepathy-aided super shifting.

In terms of how quickly he shifts his body to adapt to a situation, and how varied and diverse his forms can be, the battle shows that Eel's in a class of his own.

Yes, Apocalypse made a hole inside himself... but Eel does that damn near every single appearance. Yes, Apocalypse made a knife out of his chest, but Plastic Man is making a knife in addition to dozens of other things in that panel alone. Yes, Apocalypse stretched himself, but are you kidding? That's Plastic Man's thing.

This whole tangent was brought up when the argument was made that Apocalypse could replicate what Plastic Man pulled off in the Fernus fight, correct?

You haven't shown me anything on the caliber of that scan alone, much less the whole fight.

Step up yo game.

I'll be the first to admit that apocalypse is HILARIOUSLY inconsistent. but at his peak he could hang here, this definitely isn't a stomp.

The Ikaris fight has been referenced, but the Loki one is nearly as good. not only does he instantly shapeshift into random forms that Loki can't deal with, he also demonstrates the capacity to Powerdrain Loki with his tech on the fly- and apoc was surprise attacked there. no prep.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers16.png

note that in this one page, we have apoc physically stretching one arm into...something...transforming the other arm into some kind of energy weapon, and THEN size manipulating his head to massive proportions- he goes from equal in size to loki to MASSIVELY larger and laughs off the blow.

You could also reference the classic Xfactor fight, where apoc grows to skyscraper size and tanks the combined assault from the XFactor Team (this was the Cyclops/Jean/Archangel/Iceman/Beast team, not the current one) PLUS the remaining inhumans (including black bolt).

Classic Apoc could do some damage in this fight. Not sure that he would WIN, mind you- but it could be interesting.

and yeah, anyone familiar with apocalypse should be aware that he's way too powerful to be taken out with telepathy. Marvel's strongest telepaths have always been useless against or outright manhandled by him.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Then how would explain Apocalypse surviving after having his astral form get destroyed by Cable in Search for Cyclops? Even Ozymandias stated that Apocalypse had died for good.

Celestial Technology, which is probably how he got reborn after Blood of Apocalypse. How would you explain Apocalypse needing Cable on two occasions to access the Astral Plane?

Apocalypse has one telepathic feat and that's communicating with Ozymandius who is standing 5 feet away from him right before the Onslaught saga. And for all we know that could be a special rapport with his henchmen.

The time he possessed Nate Grey and attacked Charles and Jean was a not a psi-bolt. It was an energy blast "zzraaak". And even if you want to consider it telepathic attack then he did it while possessing Nate Grey.

Furthermore, Jean mind raping Apocalypse through her rapport with Cyclops would never have happened had he had his own Telepathy.

So even if you want to go out on a limb with that one communicating feat then Apocalypse is barely a telepath...let a lone a high order telepath. He just has high telepathic defenses thanks to his celestial technology.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Celestial Technology, which is probably how he got reborn after Blood of Apocalypse.

His celestial tech had nothing to do with it. It wasn't just Apocalypse's body that was destroyed; his astral self was also killed. How does a non-telepath survive after that?



In the Onslaught saga, Apocalypse needed Cable to take his physical self into the astral plane. That's a completely different thing. Not sure about the other time.




Jean couldn't over-power Apocalypse's mental defenses; as it was explained, it was her love for Cyclops that allowed her to get in Apoc's head. http://img853.imageshack.us/i/pisincarnate.jpg/

If that's not PIS/a plot device, then I don't know what is.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
His celestial tech had nothing to do with it. It wasn't just Apocalypse's body that was destroyed; his astral self was also killed. How does a non-telepath survive after that?

The Celestials obliterated him recently. He survived the same way. Ozymandius used it to bring him back. Celestial Tech repowered Magneto and Polaris, it's a deux ex machina. So I'm not surprised.



Apocalypse needed Cable to access the Astral plane in both the Onslaught Saga and baby Cable in X-Factor when he hooked them both up to that machine. You're really grasping for straws there. If he was a telepath. Why would he need another telepath to access the Astral Plane, physical or non-physical. That argument makes no sense.




It isn't PIS. She got through via the rapport they share with Scott and Apocalypse isn't a telepath. If he was a telepath he would have been able to fight back. I find it absolutely ludicarous that people can go around making statements that he is a telepath of the highest order when he has barely ever shown telepathy. All he's done is show he has high defenses against it and that's down to his Celestial Tech. Heck Tom Brevoort even says he's not a telepath. Exodus lists out the top 5 most skilled telepaths on the planet that he knows and Apocalypse is not on the list, yet Sinister is.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
His celestial tech had nothing to do with it. It wasn't just Apocalypse's body that was destroyed; his astral self was also killed. How does a non-telepath survive after that? How does a telepath survive that?