Wonder Woman vs team

JakeTheBank

They're are not enough flying bricks for the team to win, imo. Assuming Rogue's touch even works - and it has mixed results concerning gods, and considering Diana's powers are all blessings bestowed upon her by the Olympians, there's enough to doubt to consider it might not work 100% effectively - Diana is going to make quick work of them. She's the strongest one here, the best combatant, etc. No one can really afford prolonged melee with her or endure her weapon use.

It's a tough, tough fight, but Diana's skilled and smart enough to pull it off.

TricksterPriest

Rogue has been unable to absorb Loki, Apoc, Surfer, and various others. She's not jacking the powers of the Olympians.

Wonderman's the only one who's a true class 100, and Diana is far stronger than him. Everyone else is way behind her.

carver9

I was thinking of the flying 3 possibly getting Diana on the ground ending with every one dog piling her. Then Holocaust would be a nuicance as well with his range attacks, etc.

She would be hard pressed at winning this and I agree, she "could" pull some wins but imo she would lose the majority.

I could see people making arguments on both sides.

Rage.Of.Olympus

Team.

chomperx9

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Explain how they win. She's faster and stronger than all of them combined. I doubt she is stronger than all of them combined.

BattleMage

She's not beating this team. cool

TricksterPriest

Originally posted by chomperx9
I doubt she is stronger than all of them combined. She's in Superman's weight class.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t495372.html

She's helped tow the moon.
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/?action=view&current=JLA05814.jpg

She's lifted a train.
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/?action=view&current=wonderwoman14416178oi.jpg

She's helped move the earth.
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/?action=view&current=jla75p414hj.jpg

Show me one feat these guys have that match those.

Omega Vision

Originally posted by BattleMage
She's not beating this team. cool

explain

JakeTheBank

I've not really heard a convincing argument for the team outside of numbers advantage. Considering most of them can't fly let alone keep up with Diana's moderate combat speed - let alone her high end speed - I see this as Diana fighting them at her leisure.

At absolute best, if team does indeed take the majority, I don't see how you could argue more than 6/10 in their favor.

marwash22

Wondy has all her doodads?

TricksterPriest

Not that she needs them. big grin

aztec

marwash22

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Not that she needs them. big grin

i think she would. If Wondy doesn't wrap up Rogue, she's likely to get drained.

TricksterPriest

I'm pretty sure they're in the Wondy respect thread.

aztec

Diana has gone up against multiple teams. She held her ground when she was blind against the Justice League. Sure, they weren't going all out, but she still proved why she's a top dog. On top of that, she was holding her on against multiple villains in WW annual 1 (about two years ago)...

Dianas has the strenght advantage, the skill, the weapons and speed. She's tagged Wally, Zoom, Jessie Quick, Amazo and Cheetah all of whom are far faster than the opponents she's facing.

She's stalemated Superman, Captain Marvel, bested Etrigan, Powergirl, Supergirl, Evil Mary Marvel, held her own against a Doomsday clone, defeated Genocide and Achilles.

Although, she'll duke it out, I wouldn't be surprised if Diana decided to use her weapons. She'll be able to lasso half of her opponents, use her tiara as an offensive weapon and might fry all of them with her vambraces. She has soo many options, but people underestimate her and don't know her true potential when written correctly. So with that said, Diana takes the majority.

carver9

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
She's in Superman's weight class.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t495372.html

She's helped tow the moon.
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/?action=view&current=JLA05814.jpg

She's lifted a train.
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/?action=view&current=wonderwoman14416178oi.jpg

She's helped move the earth.
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/?action=view&current=jla75p414hj.jpg

Show me one feat these guys have that match those.

Are you asking for pulling feats or lifting feats? Different. Wonderman PULLED an entire island that had mountains connected to it. He has also survived a sun going nova on him when he was rambed into it by hyperion.

Now if we are looking at "lifting" feats which doesn't require the aid of flight and durability. Then I really can't give you that for any of them. I know that grey Hulk destroyed a asteroid that was twice the size of earth but that's not a lifting feat. I also know that when angry, grey Hulk can hit just as hard if not harder han his green counterpart.

I know that classic rogue stopped a train with noting but strength alone and she punched juggernaut so hard that the shockwaves shattered every window in a city. I also know that she was punched all the way from new york to the moon by binary and "tanked" it.

Colossus strength has koed savage Hulk and has given Juggernaut fits.

Holocaust shouldn't even be explained. He is powerful enough to hurt hurt. If his punch was strong enough to rock king hype, if push came to shove, he can drop wondy and let's not forget his soul sucking power.

Blob is class 90 and can increase his mass.

Ms. Marvel has dropped an angry Sentry along with high end Skrulls who possessed the powers of earths heros and she has the powerset to give wondy trouble.

Sinister is the key... he is the most versatile on the field and I can see him also giving wondy hell while she is fighting the rest of the team.

-Pr-

what have flight and durability got to do with anything?

JakeTheBank

Let me boil down the team's threat level to Wondy:

Rhino: Lol.

Grey Hulk: One dimensional, albeit good in his dimension. Still going to be beaten by Diana.

Wonderman: Flying brick, enough to be bothersome, but not skilled enough to be able to hang with WW for a long time.

Ms. Marvel: Probably the team's MVP. Unfortunately, her main array of offense is something Diana can evade or block with the bracers.

Classic Rogue: Draining is her best bet, but as her success rate with godly powers is sketchy, there's enough doubt to consider whether or not it would work. Assuming it did, Diana can recharge lost energy with prolonged contact with the Earth (though it's doubtful she would be allowed that chance unless she dealt with the other fliers). Also depends if Rogue goes for the drainage right away and if she'll be able to reach Diana before being dismissed heavily.

Blob: Lol.

Colossus: See Grey Hulk.

Sinister: Tricky and versatile, but not enough to beat Diana.

Holocaust: Tough, but not insurmountable.

Assuming the fliers work with perfect teamwork and coordination - which is unlikely - they're still fighting a foe physically beyond them and incredibly skilled. If/when the flies are beaten or damaged extensively to the point of not being able to fight any longer, the grounded team mates are going to be dealt with one by one.

marwash22

Rogue WILL drain her. the only Chance Wondy has is if her ties down Rogue right off the bat.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by marwash22
Rogue WILL drain her. the only Chance Wondy has is if her ties down Rogue right off the bat.

It's debatable that she can based her success rate of god/god-like beings, imo. Considering Diana is powered/blessed by the Olympian pantheon and Rogue has shown that she can't always drain powers effectively if the source is too great, it's something worth considering on either end. I'm perfectly willing to accept it could be possible, but I don't think it would be wise to assume it would definitely happen.

Assuming she does go for the drain right away and that it would be successful, I don't think Rogue is fast/skilled enough to get a good drain of Diana's attributes before she gets put down via physical effort or by her weapons.

MrMind

why could rogue drain her? wondy is way faster than rogue

TricksterPriest

Diana is animated clay. I doubt she can be drained period.

marwash22

Originally posted by MrMind
why could rogue drain her? wondy is way faster than rogue because there are 8 other people opposing Wondy.

carver9

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Let me boil down the team's threat level to Wondy:

Rhino: Lol.

Grey Hulk: One dimensional, albeit good in his dimension. Still going to be beaten by Diana.

Wonderman: Flying brick, enough to be bothersome, but not skilled enough to be able to hang with WW for a long time.

Ms. Marvel: Probably the team's MVP. Unfortunately, her main array of offense is something Diana can evade or block with the bracers.

Classic Rogue: Draining is her best bet, but as her success rate with godly powers is sketchy, there's enough doubt to consider whether or not it would work. Assuming it did, Diana can recharge lost energy with prolonged contact with the Earth (though it's doubtful she would be allowed that chance unless she dealt with the other fliers). Also depends if Rogue goes for the drainage right away and if she'll be able to reach Diana before being dismissed heavily.

Blob: Lol.

Colossus: See Grey Hulk.

Sinister: Tricky and versatile, but not enough to beat Diana.

Holocaust: Tough, but not insurmountable.

Assuming the fliers work with perfect teamwork and coordination - which is unlikely - they're still fighting a foe physically beyond them and incredibly skilled. If/when the flies are beaten or damaged extensively to the point of not being able to fight any longer, the grounded team mates are going to be dealt with one by one.

And you are forgetting the main key here... Wondy is going against a team... this isn't solo and Wonderman would give her hell.

TricksterPriest

None of these guys have worked together as part of a team with the others.......

MrMind

Originally posted by marwash22
because there are 8 other people opposing Wondy.
you got a point there, wonder woman will probably go for the monsters and bricks first and ignore a girl. but rogue still needs certain speed to reach to wondy. she might get one-shotted if she get close.

Rage.Of.Olympus

Wonder Man and Grey Hulk would be sufficient to take like 7/10 against Diana unless we're using the version in people's heads where she zooms around at trans light speeds using the lasso consistently.

marwash22

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
None of these guys have worked together as part of a team with the others....... and that's relevant because it takes team building exercises to mob a solitary force.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by carver9
And you are forgetting the main key here... Wondy is going against a team... this isn't solo and Wonderman would give her hell.

A team with next to no rapport and all people with skill factors marginally below what Diana is capable of. Not to mention their overall mobility is crap. If they had more flying members, Diana would be in more trouble. As it stands, they don't. Why would Diana fight them on the ground when she can hang in the sky and deal with a much smaller force? Assuming they're going to work with JLA or Avengers style efficiency and team work doesn't make it so. Just a bunch of people all attacking in tandem isn't going to work when most of them won't be able to reach Diana to begin with.

It's a tough fight regardless, something I've admitted when I first replied. But the team doesn't have the capability to pull off a decisive majority here.

TricksterPriest

She's faster than them by a HUGE margin. Show me proof they can touch her.

MrMind

wondy has caught flash with her lasso, she's fast in term of reaction/combat speed no doubt about that. she can dodge most of their attacks no problem

marwash22

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
She's faster than them by a HUGE margin. Show me proof they can touch her. ohhhhhhhh. you mean how Wally is Waaaaaaay faster than Diana, yet she manages to hit him? Gimme a break; you people fall back on speed much too often for my liking.

It's a fact that characters don't fight at their full potential and you can't just make Wondy fight out of character just to make an argument... if we did this, Flash would shit stomp in every single thread 'cause 99% of characters can't even see him when he goes at his max.

Show me an instance where Wondy has used the full extent of her speed (right off the bat) against an opponent that she knew wasn't a speedster. Bottom line, character's hardly ever speedblitz, stop changing character personalities.

aztec

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Wonder Man and Grey Hulk would be sufficient to take like 7/10 against Diana unless we're using the version in people's heads where she zooms around at trans light speeds using the lasso consistently.

If that were the case, then what's the point of writing comics , or having multiple heros? All Dc would need would be the Flash or Silver Surfer for Marvel.

In the Justice League Diana was able to lasso Amazo, the same android who had Flashe's powerset. In hypotethical women, Diana was able to land a blow to Wally, who was trying to kill her. During her encounter with Powergirl, Karen was unable to land a single punch when Diana was using her flexes and speed. Anyway, if you want to continue ignoring her speed and reflexes, its up to you. Diana has demostrated on multiple occasions that she can land hits on Flash, Cheetah, Amazo and Zoom. I can give you the number of individual issues or trades.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by marwash22
It's a fact that characters don't fight at their full potential and you can't just make Wondy fight out of character just to make an argument... if we did this, Flash would shit stomp in every single thread 'cause 99% of character can't even see him when he goes at his max.

Isn't that what happens here, though? I mean, we're supposed to have all characters fight at full potential by default - albeit in character - and Flash, in forum settings, is pretty tough to beat unless you have a really good power set to overcome him.

carver9

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
She's faster than them by a HUGE margin. Show me proof they can touch her.

No she isn't and haven't shown the type of combat speed that you all are talking about since her slapping stars from around a galaxy. She will not be fighting at these invisible speeds that you all are trying to throw off.

Rogue has speed feats of flying alongside Surfer through space at trans light, she also share the slapping machine gun bullets out of the air like Wondy and Supes does and then we have her flying from the moon to new york in a couple of seconds. She is fast enough to tag Wondy.

Wonderman can as well along with everyone else here. Wondy's bracers is the problem, she is a expert blocker but against this team, it will not get her far because she would have to be blocking from all angle from guys that could blast and cover an entire area.

Rogue isn't getting one shotted either. She has taken punches from Juggernaut, Binary punched her from new york to the moon (Wondy nepver showed that she could hit that hard) and rogue tanked it. She has taken hits from Hulk, Thor, and the list goes on. Also, she can absorb Wondy. Let's not forget about her moment when she absorbed every member on the xmen and avengers powers and went on a rampage.

Like I said before, going by feats, Ms. Marvel could give her hell... Wonderman has fought and done well against Hyperion, Thor, Gladiator, and Hulk, why wouldn't he be a threat to Wondy and Grey Hulk is a natural beast.

Research people.. do your research.

marwash22

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Isn't that what happens here, though? I mean, we're supposed to have all characters fight at full potential by default - albeit in character - and Flash, in forum settings, is pretty tough to beat unless you have a really good power set to overcome him. not really. that hardly ever happens unless someone writes in parentheses... (no bullshitting/bloodlusted or something like that).

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by aztec
If that were the case, then what's the point of writing comics , or having multiple heros? All Dc would need would be the Flash or Silver Surfer for Marvel.

In the Justice League Diana was able to lasso Amazo, the same android who had Flashe's powerset. In hypotethical women, Diana was able to land a blow to Wally, who was trying to kill her. During her encounter with Powergirl, Karen was unable to land a single punch when Diana was using her flexes and speed. Anyway, if you want to continue ignoring her speed and reflexes, its up to you. Diana has demostrated on multiple occasions that she can land hits on Flash, Cheetah, Amazo and Zoom. I can give you the number of individual issues or trades.

What?

When did I say I was ignoring her speed? I'm familiar with how fast Diana is. I've read every seen you've mentioned (The issue with Power Girl was more of a skill showing rather than a speed one I'd argue). I just don't think she operates at the levels she would need to beat this team anywhere near the majority.

She'd have to fight as if a poster was controlling her to win here. Character's fight at competent levels, but CIS is still in play. It's the reason why I rarely mention the God Blast despite Thor having used it like 6 times.

You could argue that facing such odds, would place Diana in an extreme mindset, forcing her to fight far outside the norm, but that's about it.

aztec

Originally posted by marwash22
ohhhhhhhh. you mean how Wally is Waaaaaaay faster than Diana, yet she manages to hit him? Gimme a break; you people fall back on speed much too often for my liking.

It's a fact that characters don't fight at their full potential and you can't just make Wondy fight out of character just to make an argument... if we did this, Flash would shit stomp in every single thread 'cause 99% of characters can't even see him when he goes at his max.

Show me an instance where Wondy has used the full extent of her speed (right off the bat) against an opponent that she knew wasn't a speedster. Bottom line, character's hardly ever speedblitz, stop changing character personalities.

Half of the characters Wally is pitted against in the versus forum, due however posses super speed... Diana happens to be one of the few hero's who can stop the Flash, she's done so in the past.

Once again, heroes don't use their potential in fights because of PIS or CIS. The same argument could be made for many hero's... Why is Thor needed, if Sentry is just as strong? Or why have the Justice League when Superman has an array of powers. The whole point of a versus forum, is to prove who can defeat who with logical reasoning and proof.

carver9

Originally posted by aztec
If that were the case, then what's the point of writing comics , or having multiple heros? All Dc would need would be the Flash or Silver Surfer for Marvel.

In the Justice League Diana was able to lasso Amazo, the same android who had Flashe's powerset. In hypotethical women, Diana was able to land a blow to Wally, who was trying to kill her. During her encounter with Powergirl, Karen was unable to land a single punch when Diana was using her flexes and speed. Anyway, if you want to continue ignoring her speed and reflexes, its up to you. Diana has demostrated on multiple occasions that she can land hits on Flash, Cheetah, Amazo and Zoom. I can give you the number of individual issues or trades.

Lol... she tagged Zoom and Flash. I can't even count anymore on how many people that has actually tagged Flash type people. Hell, I feel safe to say that if all of these peeps that re going against Wondy was in DC, they would tag flash also.

Its just how it is.

Lol... she tagged Amazo... an amazo that was getting his leg sawed off with a lazer from Batman. Flash admitted during his fight with Amazo that if he didn't steal his speed from Amazo, Amazo would have killed the Justice League (including Diana since she was in the room when he said this) before they got their next thought off.

JakeTheBank

As it stands, I think Diana only wins 6/10 here. *shrugs*

Wonder Man and Ms. Marvel and Rogue are the team's best shots, imo, and if they wind up KOed or incapacitated, I really don't see the grounded members doing well.

TricksterPriest

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What?

When did I say I was ignoring her speed? I'm familiar with how fast Diana is. I've read every seen you've mentioned (The issue with Power Girl was more of a skill showing rather than a speed one I'd argue). I just don't think she operates at the levels she would need to beat this team anywhere near the majority.

She'd have to fight as if a poster was controlling her to win here. Character's fight at competent levels, but CIS is still in play. It's the reason why I rarely mention the God Blast despite Thor having used it like 6 times.

You could argue that facing such odds, would place Diana in an extreme mindset, forcing her to fight far outside the norm, but that's about it.

I think you are vastly underestimating Diana.

Aztec: There's very little that can stop Flash if he's not jobbing or holding back. But yes, Diana has tagged him. She operates in that ballpark.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... she tagged Zoom and Flash. I can't even count anymore on how many people that has actually tagged Flash type people. Hell, I feel safe to say that if all of these peeps that re going against Wondy was in DC, they would tag flash also.

Its just how it is.

Lol... she tagged Amazo... an amazo that was getting his leg sawed off with a lazer from Batman. Flash admitted during his fight with Amazo that if he didn't steal his speed from Amazo, Amazo would have killed the Justice League (including Diana since she was in the room when he said this) before they got their next thought off.

Based on what? Diana tags people far faster than her based on her skill, her own speed, and decades/centuries/etc of training. Her doing well against super speedsters while blind further drives that point home. Trying to discredit the feat or say other people could probably do that too when they haven't doesn't make it any less impressive.

marwash22

Originally posted by aztec
Diana happens to be one of the few hero's who can stop the Flash, she's done so in the past. lolwut? that's just not true.

Originally posted by aztec
The whole point of a versus forum, is to prove who can defeat who with logical reasoning and proof. that's understood. We're supposed to use showings/stats/scans/etc, to show how one character can beat another; but we're not supposed to change the way a character fights. For example, you can't just say Johnny would immediately go nova in a forum fight because he never does that in comics. Again, the only way i see that being legit is if the OP says "bloodlust is on" or something of that nature.

aztec

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What?

When did I say I was ignoring her speed? I'm familiar with how fast Diana is. I've read every seen you've mentioned (The issue with Power Girl was more of a skill showing rather than a speed one I'd argue). I just don't think she operates at the levels she would need to beat this team anywhere near the majority.

She'd have to fight as if a poster was controlling her to win here. Character's fight at competent levels, but CIS is still in play. It's the reason why I rarely mention the God Blast despite Thor having used it like 6 times.

You could argue that facing such odds, would place Diana in an extreme mindset, forcing her to fight far outside the norm, but that's about it.

It sounded like you were ignoring her accomplishments. As for her speed, its been mentioned on multiple occasions that she has faster than light reflexes, and not just in her book. I haven't read all of her apperances, but have seen more than enough to prove that she's capable of taking Flash down.

Diana uses's her speed more often than Thor's Godblast. Trust me, I would know, because I have a couple of trades and old issues on the big bruiser. wink

JakeTheBank

If Flash is using his maximum speed output, I certainly don't think Diana could beat him. Same if Zoom actively wanted her dead. What she did was still incredibly impressive and not possible for many others to pull off, though.

carver9

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Based on what? Diana tags people far faster than her based on her skill, her own speed, and decades/centuries/etc of training. Her doing well against super speedsters while blind further drives that point home. Trying to discredit the feat or say other people could probably do that too when they haven't doesn't make it any less impressive.

Speed had NOTHING to do with her tagging Zoom and she admitted this. That was a skill feat. Now let's go to the flash fights that she has had. One that I can remember was when flash was suffering from a virus that was driving him mad. He was blitzing her so fast that the air was turning to fire. These are Wondys words while fighting him... " I am fast, compared to a human, very fast but to Flash, my speed is like a snail, I have to THINK of a way to break his madness". She then time her attack and tag him just like evryone that face the flash.

Nightwing did the same thing to Flash... Flash was running around the Titan headquarters and Nightwing timed where he was going to run to next and rapped him up with a baterang.

Flash doesn't fight in a dbz fashion... he usualy runs in a circle blitzing you or run in a straight line.

I know Diana is fast but Jake fast, hell no.

MrMind

diana shouldn't be able to win flash under normal circumstances, but she's still too fast for this team to counter.

aztec

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I think you are vastly underestimating Diana.

Aztec: There's very little that can stop Flash if he's not jobbing or holding back. But yes, Diana has tagged him. She operates in that ballpark.

Dont forget to mention Amazo and Cheetah. They both posses superspeed. They've also manhandle Wally before. Also, in Final Crisis, Barry acknowledges Diana's speed/reflexes. When he was running alongside Wally, when all of a sudden a spear almost hit him. He was impressive by the warrior, not knowing it was Diana.

Oh yeah, Diana also attacked the Shaggyman at match 4. It's not as impressive as her other instances, but still a worthy feat. (During Morrison's run)

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by carver9
Speed had NOTHING to do with her tagging Zoom and she admitted this. That was a skill feat. Now let's go to the flash fights that she has had. One that I can remember was when flash was suffering from a virus that was driving him mad. He was blitzing her so fast that the air was turning to fire. These are Wondys words while fighting him... " I am fast, compared to a human, very fast but to Flash, my speed is like a snail, I have to THINK of a way to break his madness". She then time her attack and tag him just like evryone that face the flash.

Nightwing did the same thing to Flash... Flash was running around the Titan headquarters and Nightwing timed where he was going to run to next and rapped him up with a baterang.

Flash doesn't fight in a dbz fashion... he usualy runs in a circle blitzing you or run in a straight line.

I know Diana is fast but Jake fast, hell no.

If Diana didn't have her own measure of superspeed, she wouldn't fare nearly as well, let's be honest. It's also backed up by when she fights other speedsters such as Cheetah or teleporters like Genocide or flying super fast bricks such as Superman, Captain Marvel, Power Girl, etc. She has levels of speed and skill to high degrees that no one matches on the team. Having one or the other is great. Having both is superb.

Great for Nightwing. Diana's skill/speed feats eclipse his.

I didn't say he does fight in DBZ fashion. Being fast enough to react to either or is still impressive considering his speed output on bad days in the comic world.

She's not Flash level speed. I certainly didn't claim this. But she's still faster and more skilled than anyone present as a whole.

MrMind

based on feats alone barry or wally are both faster than wondy. not sure about barry but wally can definitely beat wondy

aztec

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
If Flash is using his maximum speed output, I certainly don't think Diana could beat him. Same if Zoom actively wanted her dead. What she did was still incredibly impressive and not possible for many others to pull off, though.

All Diana, needs is one punch. This is where you and I disagree. stick out tongue

Still, nice avatar. Any trade suggestions would be helpful. big grin

carver9

Originally posted by aztec
All Diana, needs is one punch. This is where you and I disagree. stick out tongue

Still, nice avatar. Any trade suggestions would be helpful. big grin

If flash doesn't want her hitting him, its not happening. He is leagues above her in the speed dept.

aztec

Batman sawing Amazo's leg *sigh*..... Read more Batman comics, then we'll talk. eek!

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by aztec
All Diana, needs is one punch. This is where you and I disagree. stick out tongue

Still, nice avatar. Any trade suggestions would be helpful. big grin

Yeah, but it's extremely unlikely she'll land that one punch if Wally is operating at maximum levels. I find it more plausible she'll tag him in a comic than in a forum setting. But no shame in disagreeing. thumb up

Thanks! Well, all of my Mar-Vell stuff is in issue format so I don't know of any trades off hand; they should have them, though. Obviously "Death of Captain Marvel" is a must.

aztec

Originally posted by marwash22
lolwut? that's just not true.

that's understood. We're supposed to use showings/stats/scans/etc, to show how one character can beat another; but we're not supposed to change the way a character fights. For example, you can't just say Johnny would immediately go nova in a forum fight because he never does that in comics. Again, the only way i see that being legit is if the OP says "bloodlust is on" or something of that nature.

I'm entitle to my opinion, as are you. I stand with the notion, that Diana is one of the few characters that can stop Flash.

As Jake mentioned, all characters are fighting at the best of their abilities... Bloodlusted, on the other hand means she would kill them.

aztec

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, but it's extremely unlikely she'll land that one punch if Wally is operating at maximum levels. I find it more plausible she'll tag him in a comic than in a forum setting. But no shame in disagreeing. thumb up

Thanks! Well, all of my Mar-Vell stuff is in issue format so I don't know of any trades off hand; they should have them, though. Obviously "Death of Captain Marvel" is a must.

They'll both be operating at maximum levels. Wally wouldn't be the only one. stick out tongue

Cool, thanks. I'm definately going to pick it up. I've been wanting to read more on Captain Mar-Vell, after reading his tie in on Secret Invasion.

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by aztec
It sounded like you were ignoring her accomplishments. As for her speed, its been mentioned on multiple occasions that she has faster than light reflexes, and not just in her book. I haven't read all of her apperances, but have seen more than enough to prove that she's capable of taking Flash down.

Diana uses's her speed more often than Thor's Godblast. Trust me, I would know, because I have a couple of trades and old issues on the big bruiser. wink

Why would I do that? I don't think it's been mentioned a single time that she has faster than light reflexes. I've never seen it at least. She does however have some impressive speed feats. She can tag the Flash, but if we're going to have Diana fighting like you do, we have to apply the same out of character mindset to Wally, which would be a stomp in his favor. It would be a feat if she caught a glimpse of him as he beats her to death.

Using speed and doing what she would need to do to beat this team are very different things.

Is Thor not easily the superior character? smile

aztec

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why would I do that? I don't think it's been mentioned a single time that she has faster than light reflexes. I've never seen it at least. She does however have some impressive speed feats. She can tag the Flash, but if we're going to have Diana fighting like you do, we have to apply the same out of character mindset to Wally, which would be a stomp in his favor. It would be a feat if she caught a glimpse of him as he beats her to death.

Using speed and doing what she would need to do to beat this team are very different things.

Is Thor not easily the superior character? smile

Once again, all Diana needs is one hit. If their both going all out, she'll eventually tag him.

I consider myself a Thor fan, but next to Diana he's just an ordinary asgardian. stick out tongue

.. I've got a couple trades from him (Secret Invasion, some from Simonson and JMS).. Silver Surfer essentials (1st rumble), and individual issues.. I would mentioned WW's, but their too many too count big grin

marwash22

Originally posted by aztec
I'm entitle to my opinion, as are you. I stand with the notion, that Diana is one of the few characters that can stop Flash.
true. Though, it's not really a matter of opinion, is it? Wally is faster than her, by a wide margin... it's not up for debate. She is in no way "stopping him" from doing anything.

carver9

OMG... how is Wonder Woman tagging someone that was moving so fast that Superman was a statue? If Superman can't even get a glimpse of a all going out Flash, Wonder Woman isn't seeing let alone touching him. Flash could hit her a thousand times before she even realize the bell rung and continue with his blitz while she isn't even moving a muscle due to flash moving far above her.

By the way aztex, there isn't a single scan stating that Wonder Woman is a light speedster, you are making up stuff.

TricksterPriest

She's got the feats to say she is lightspeed, quit lowballing.

JakeTheBank

Not saying she's Flash level - she's not - but her blocking the omni-directional blast from the Shattered God is a lightspeed feat, for one.

Mindset

Originally posted by aztec
I'm entitle to my opinion, as are you. I stand with the notion, that Diana is one of the few characters that can stop Flash.

As Jake mentioned, all characters are fighting at the best of their abilities... Bloodlusted, on the other hand means she would kill them. If she takes her top off, maybe.

carver9

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not saying she's Flash level - she's not - but her blocking the omni-directional blast from the Shattered God is a lightspeed feat, for one.

I agree with that... name another one.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with that... name another one.

The Jesse Quick instance and no, I don't think Diana can access the Speed Force under her own volition as that is absurd. But being able to stay behind her and pull Jesse back, who was going light speed as I read it, requires upwards of that level of speed to even stay right behind her.

Rage.Of.Olympus

It was because she was attached to Jesse that she could entered the Speed Force. That's the only logical explanation. Non Speed Force users can't access that dimension. Even what Diana did was iffy at best.

From what I remember Jesse hit light speed, and entered the Speed Force.

Originally posted by aztec
Once again, all Diana needs is one hit. If their both going all out, she'll eventually tag him.

I consider myself a Thor fan, but next to Diana he's just an ordinary asgardian. stick out tongue

She'd need more than one hit definitely. When Wally goes super fast, he gets some pretty incredible superhuman durability. A fact a lot of writers seem to forget. And no, she isn't touching Wally. She'd be lucky to be able to even see Wally. Diana's fast and hard to beat, but if we want to start comparing notes/feats, she'll go down hard to Wally.

Blasphemy. You should get the entire Simonson's run if you want some good Thor stories. There are also some nice miniseries, one shots etc. Gillen's run recently was good. Don't waste your money on Fraction's.

aztec

Originally posted by carver9
OMG... how is Wonder Woman tagging someone that was moving so fast that Superman was a statue? If Superman can't even get a glimpse of a all going out Flash, Wonder Woman isn't seeing let alone touching him. Flash could hit her a thousand times before she even realize the bell rung and continue with his blitz while she isn't even moving a muscle due to flash moving far above her.

By the way aztex, there isn't a single scan stating that Wonder Woman is a light speedster, you are making up stuff.

Your right, I'm making things up. Maybe, you should ignore me. confused

aztec

Originally posted by marwash22
true. Though, it's not really a matter of opinion, is it? Wally is faster than her, by a wide margin... it's not up for debate. She is in no way "stopping him" from doing anything.

I'm not saying she's faster than him, but that she can take him out with one hit.

Mindset

No, she can't.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was because she was attached to Jesse that she could entered the Speed Force. That's the only logical explanation. Non Speed Force users can't access that dimension. Even what Diana did was iffy at best.

From what I remember Jesse hit light speed, and entered the Speed Force.

Yeah, Diana's not hitting into the SF by herself. I've seen some posters use that scan as proof she can which is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as Superman Speed Force dumping people, which...yeah. Lol.

Lassoing Jesse as she's entering the SF would require reflexes on par to compensate for that kind of speed if Diana wasn't moving at that speed herself.

aztec

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was because she was attached to Jesse that she could entere the Speed Force. That's the only logical explaniation. Non Speed Force users can't access that dimension. Even what Diana did was iffy at best.

From what I remembe Jesse hit light speed, and entered the Speed Force.

She'd need more than one hit definitely. When Wally goes super fast, he gets pretty incredible superhuman durability. And no, she isn't touching Wally. She'd be lucky to be able to even see Wally. Diana's fast and hard to beat, but if we want to start comparing notes/feats, she'll go down hard to Wally.

Blasphemy. You should get the entire Simonson's run if you want some good Thor stories. There are also some nice miniseries, one shots etc. Gillen's run recently was good. Don't waste your money on Fraction's.

I'm not saying Diana is faster than Wally, but that she can take him out. In hypotethical woman, Wally was under Starro's control and trying to kill Diana. He was attacking her from all angles, and hitting her on multiple occasions. Inevitably, she landed a blow and knock him on his a**. Wally, was unable to get up afterwards. She taught, he killed him.

I buy what I can afford, haha.. I would buy more Thor trades, but I'm behind on my reading, and I'd rather read more on Superman, or Wonder Woman. big grin

.. As for Marvel, i'm mostly an Xmen reader. They have a close place to my heart, because of the animated cartoon. stick out tongue

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by aztec
I'm not saying Diana is faster than Wally, but that she can take him out. In hypotethical woman, Wally was under Starro's control and trying to kill Diana. He was attacking her from all angles, and hitting her on multiple occasions. Inevitably, she landed a blow and knock him on his a**. Wally, was unable to get up afterwards. She taught, he killed him.

No, she really can't. She'd be like a statue frozen in time. I know that scene. It doesn't matter. It's like what happens in 95% of his appearances: Wally's abilities are forgotten or toned down. You're listing Diana's higher end showings. If I do the same for Wally, it's simply not a contest. It is what it is.

Wasn't it also outright stated that the Starro lacked the experience and/or control that Wally had of his abilities? I recall someone mentioning that. It would be a more satisfactory answer.

Writers have to tone him down or ignore his shown capabilities to write stories involving him that don't end in moments. I've seen writers outright admit it.

Originally posted by aztec
I buy what I can afford, haha.. I would buy more Thor trades, but I'm behind on my reading, and I'd rather read more on Superman, or Wonder Woman. big grin

.. As for Marvel, i'm mostly an Xmen reader. They have a close place to my heart, because of the animated cartoon. stick out tongue

True, money's tight nowadays. Why would you waste your money on Diana or Superman when you can read about Thor?

TheTyrant

How's she going to take out Sinister?

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by TheTyrant
How's she going to take out Sinister?

Lasso, tiara, Aegis bracers.

aztec

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No, she really can't. She'd be like a statue frozen in time. I know that scene. And like what happens in 95% of his appearances, Wally's abilities are forgotten or toned down. You're listing Diana's higher end showings. If I do the same for Wally, it's simply not a contest. It is what it is.

Wasn't it also outright stated that the Starro lacked the experience and/or control that Wally had of his abilities? I recall someone mentioning that.

Writers have to tone him down or ignore his shown capabilities to right stories involving him that don't end in moments. I've seen writers outright admit it.

True, money's tight nowadays. Why would you waste your money on Diana or Superman when you can read about Thor?

I haven't open hypothetical women, in over two years ago. I'd have to reread the trade. I can't remember that being stated. Your right, Wally abilities are always ignored, but the same is said for Diana. Hero's aren't written to their best abilities, that includes Thor. stick out tongue

... Diana's tagged speedsters on multiple occasions.

Diana, Clark and Hal are my three favorite superheroes. I grew up watching the Superfriends, thus I prefer Dc characters. However, I give credit where its due. Although, Diana is one of my favorite characters i'd give the Surfer the majority over her. But, seriously, I like Thor but happen to love other characters more. wink

TheTyrant

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Lasso, tiara, Aegis bracers.

Sinister can put up shields though.

TricksterPriest

He can't shield from the tiara. I don't see him escaping the lasso.

aztec

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, Diana's not hitting into the SF by herself. I've seen some posters use that scan as proof she can which is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as Superman Speed Force dumping people, which...yeah. Lol.

Lassoing Jesse as she's entering the SF would require reflexes on par to compensate for that kind of speed if Diana wasn't moving at that speed herself.

...*sigh*... I was going to ask you to become my new best friend. But, after reading this statement your no longer worthy stick out tongue

Where's the dislike button?? eek!

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by aztec
I read hypothetical women, over two years ago. I'd have to reread the trade. I can't remember that being stated. Your right, Wally abilities are always ignored, but the same is said for Diana. Hero's aren't written to their best abilities, that includes Thor. stick out tongue

..

Oh, I have no doubt she can tag speedsters. She can tag almost any speedster. The problem is, that Wally is basically the cream of the crop when it comes to speedsters. At least before Geoff and his Silver Age fetish took over. ermm

Yea, a lot of characters have their abilities toned down. It's especially frustrating for me because my two favorite characters are Wally and Thor. Two characters who have such hax powers, that their almost always ignored.

I'm just joking. Different strokes for different folks and all that. Thor or Diana in a fight?

And you better pick the right one. ahuh

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Sinister can put up shields though.

Diana's tiara has broken though shields before. The lasso has gotten around shield as well. Not sure how the Aegis bracelets would interact with shields, though. It's borne of Zeus' own power, albeit on a smaller scale.

aztec

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Sinister can put up shields though.

If I'm not mistaken Diana has used the lasso as an offensive weapon against shields. I might be wrong, i'd need to look through my issues.

TheTyrant

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He can't shield from the tiara. I don't see him escaping the lasso.

So the lasso can by-pass shields nowadays?

Edit: Nevermind, read Jake's post. I'll trust you.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by aztec
...*sigh*... I was going to ask you to become my new best friend. But, after reading this statement your no longer worthy stick out tongue

Where's the dislike button?? eek!

Aww.

Eh, I try to be objective when it comes to characters I've followed for years. Diana often gets overblown to extreme levels or underrated; she's tough to find even ground here, imo. I think she's a great character and all, but no, she's not entering the Speed Force under her own power lol. Neither is Clark.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by TheTyrant
So the lasso can by-pass shields nowadays?

Edit: Nevermind, read Jake's post. I'll trust you.

Yeah, sometimes when Diana uses it as a knuckle duster of sort or by the whole "truth" aspect which gets around it. The lasso has done some pretty wacky stuff before. As is, the tiara's properties coupled with class 100 + strength put behind the throw is the safer bet for such defenses, imo.

carver9

Originally posted by TheTyrant
So the lasso can by-pass shields nowadays?

Edit: Nevermind, read Jake's post. I'll trust you.

Lol...

Jake is a trust worthing guy... he is very reasonable (even though we disagree a lot).

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...

Jake is a trust worthing guy... he is very reasonable (even though we disagree a lot).

Me am trustworthy. duryes

TricksterPriest

The lasso and tiara both have proven shield busting feats. I'm sure the lasso has busted a GL shield.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The lasso and tiara both have proven shield busting feats. I'm sure the lasso has busted a GL shield.

It has, though it wasn't a Hal/Kyle shield. At least not the example I'm recalling; it was during an issue in which Diana was fighting the Khund again.

aztec

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Aww. sad

I also belive Diana gets downplayed, which is why I'd rather debate for her than Superman.... Also, its hard to keep track of Clark. He has soo many apperances/inconsistencies.

carver9

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Me am trustworthy. duryes

Ok, I change my mind... after reading this, he isn't trust worthy.

confused

TricksterPriest

Regarding Flash's rogues gallery, they're alot more dangerous than they act with Flash. They have an understanding with him. Look at Rogues revenge. They're far more dangerous than they let on.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by aztec
I never said she could, but that wasn't the answer i'd expect from you stick out tongue

I also belive Diana gets downplayed, which is why I'd rather debate for her than Superman.... Also, its hard to keep track of Clark. He has soo many apperances/inconsistencies.

Always expect the truth from me. Always! ha-son Except when I'm being a fanboy, in which case, Orion solos.

Yeah, generally, I feel that she gets downplayed, but not out of a purposeful lowballing intent. I just don't think a whole lot of people follow her outside of JLA. But that's just me. Superman is a whole 'nother beast entirely. People, to me, anyway, treat him like a mid-herald or a damn abstract being.

aztec

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Regarding Flash's rogues gallery, they're alot more dangerous than they act with Flash. They have an understanding with him. Look at Rogues revenge. They're far more dangerous than they let on.

or when they killed Bart... sad

aztec

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Always expect the truth from me. Always! ha-son Except when I'm being a fanboy, in which case, Orion solos.

Yeah, generally, I feel that she gets downplayed, but not out of a purposeful lowballing intent. I just don't think a whole lot of people follow her outside of JLA. But that's just me. Superman is a whole 'nother beast entirely. People, to me, anyway, treat him like a mid-herald or a damn abstract being.

The same is said about a-lot of Marvel characters. I hate when they downplayed Cyclops. He could f*ck the Hulk!!! big grin

...

I rather follow Diana in the Justice League, she has higher showings outside of her book. Many readers are unfamiliar with her villains and their capabilities. If you pitt Diana against Black Adam or Sinestro people's opions about her will change.

Once again, Superman we both agree on Superman. Its hard for me to debate for him. Also, i'm unfamaliar with some of the heroes/villains he's up against. I'm mostly an Xmen reader, and on occasions buy Marvel trades which are cheap on Amazon (The Illuminati, Thor, Silver Surfer, Ms. Marvel....)... I want too read more on Marvel characters, because next to my Dc trades and individual issues their insignificant. big grin

-Pr-

Originally posted by marwash22
ohhhhhhhh. you mean how Wally is Waaaaaaay faster than Diana, yet she manages to hit him? Gimme a break; you people fall back on speed much too often for my liking.

It's a fact that characters don't fight at their full potential and you can't just make Wondy fight out of character just to make an argument... if we did this, Flash would shit stomp in every single thread 'cause 99% of characters can't even see him when he goes at his max.

Show me an instance where Wondy has used the full extent of her speed (right off the bat) against an opponent that she knew wasn't a speedster. Bottom line, character's hardly ever speedblitz, stop changing character personalities.

"you people"? sneer

also, there is the full capacity rule.

Originally posted by carver9
If flash doesn't want her hitting him, its not happening. He is leagues above her in the speed dept.

and she's leagues above this team. see how this works?

BattleMage

Team takes her out.

Omega Vision

Originally posted by BattleMage
Team takes her out.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
explain

The Return

Originally posted by carver9
The people she is facing...

Rhino
Grey Hulk
Wonderman
Ms. Marvel
Classic Rogue
Blob
Colossus
Sinister
Holocaust

Can she take them out? In a blur, she decapitates most of the team with her tiara. Or her lightning kills most of them. Or she simply hefts the ground they stand on into the sun. Leaving the flyers who aren't fast enough to avoid being hog tied by the indestructible rope.

JakeTheBank

I don't think she's going to go for the kill here, though.

Starscream M

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I've not really heard a convincing argument for the team outside of numbers advantage. Considering most of them can't fly let alone keep up with Diana's moderate combat speed - let alone her high end speed - I see this as Diana fighting them at her leisure.

At absolute best, if team does indeed take the majority, I don't see how you could argue more than 6/10 in their favor. they are combined more powerful than she is.

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by Starscream M
they are combined more powerful than she is.

That assumes the team is going to attack all at once with a level of teamwork and coordination for it to matter and to keep the fight grounded so the non-fliers of the teams can get some licks in. I just find that as highly unlikely as Diana's skill and speed advantage should keep her from being grounded, imo. The fliers are her biggest threat and if the team loses them, then they're pretty much done here.

DarkSaint85

ShadowFyre

Good fight imo. Most are fodder but some are really gonna slow her down long enough to dogpile

Team 5.5/10

MrMind

wish jake is still here to school these new age thorbags

ilikecomics

Damn, this thread is from around when i made an account.
Really takes me back.

Is jakethebank alive?

Ww wins

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by ilikecomics

Is jakethebank alive?

We really don't know.

He just left one day with no explanation or goodbye.

He was online on Mar 25th, 2014 for the last time.

Booya_69

Originally posted by MrMind
wish jake is still here to school these new age thorbags

Jake was a thorbag

Rage.Of.Olympus

Team wins.

Grey Hulk + Rogue + Sinister is a deadly combo imo. Hulk is strong enough to go h2h without being demolished in one-hit, Rogue has her energy drain, and Sinister has the actual brain power to utilize the team properly.

GodofNature

Wonder Woman should win without much trouble.

DarkSaint85

Yeah, WW for me.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by Starscream M
she loses.

#batmanwasright

abhilegend

Team, easily.

GodofNature

Originally posted by abhilegend
Team, easily.
How, even without blitzing Superman is Wonder Woman magnitudes faster than all of them, and power don't combines just because you have multiple weaker characters together?

abhilegend

Originally posted by GodofNature
How, even without blitzing Superman is Wonder Woman magnitudes faster than all of them, and power don't combines just because you have multiple weaker characters together?
In character Diana hardly blitzes a team of this size. Team has enough power to beat her.

GodofNature

Originally posted by abhilegend
In character Diana hardly blitzes a team of this size. Team has enough power to beat her.
Wonder Woman has no reason to let them even touch her, and none of them has enough power if she don't let them swarm her, in character don't means that Wonder Woman jobs like crazy.

abhilegend

Sure, let's see those blitzing feats.

StiltmanFTW

Abhi, you should consider marrying nvr at this point.

Philosoph�a

Tbh that's a pretty weak ass team.

Delta1938

Originally posted by carver9

Now if we are looking at "lifting" feats which doesn't require the aid of flight and durability. Then I really can't give you that for any of them. I know that grey Hulk destroyed a asteroid that was twice the size of earth but that's not a lifting feat. I also know that when angry, grey Hulk can hit just as hard if not harder han his green counterpart.

What you don't know though is it's not much of a feat. Volumetrically it was large. Twice the size of Earth.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11133/111339903/6379174-1003527191-main-qimg-50d6500817913f72596346ffd9d2cd27

However mass wise this was weak sauce. It's not round. One of the criteria for being a planet is being large enough to be spherical.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/in-depth/

Even Pluto, which has been downgraded as a dwarf planet, is round.

https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/5-8/features/nasa-knows/what-is-pluto-58.html

So while we don't know exactly how much mass the asteroid had, despite it volumetric size we know this had less mass than a midget planet.