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both fighting for the right to rule the dimension. both going all out full power till one is dead.

who wins and why?

http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/6/67/Defenders_Vol_3_3_Textless.jpg
-VS-
http://www.fightersgeneration.com/np6/char2/more/shuma-planet.jpg

there is only possible outcome for this and it's Tentacle Rape

Dormmy's hands are clearly big enough to engulf Shuma's eyeball.

SG's tentacles are clearly thick enough to make sure dormmy never sits down again.

ewww

Based purely on feats and previous opponents, I'm gonna say Dormammu for the healthy majority.

Originally posted by zopzop
Based purely on feats and previous opponents, I'm gonna say Dormammu for the healthy majority.

What the hell? How is Dormammu taking down Shuma-Gorath? Shuma is in a completely different league compared to Dormammu.

TricksterPriest unless you have scans to back up your words, you got nothing but your opinion.

................Dude, go read the respect threads. Dorm isn't as big a problem at Shuma. Your problem is, you've never seen what Shuma can do at full power.

I've read the respect thread. It's almost ALL hyperbole! His only decent feat was making a voodoo doll image of Earth.

Satanic God VS Cthonic God.

My moneys on Shuma.

Dormammu>>Eternity at his highest.
Hes about even with Dr Strange but Strange had a lot of prep when he beat Shuma the 2nd time.

dormy

Shuma wins based on the fact that the earth looks smaller next to him then Dormy

Originally posted by the ninjak
Satanic God VS Cthonic God.

My moneys on Shuma. both are chthonic gods and both use chaos magic

Lol how can you seriously vote for Dormammu? Let look at who owns what

Dormammu owns one dimension which he had help with his sister to take over.

Shuma gorath cannot die and has taken over 1000 realities by himself?

This is a no contest lol. You don't even have to post feats from Shuma gorath thats how easily he wins lol

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
both are chthonic gods and both use chaos magic

Dormammu isn't a god he is and energy being with his sister from a race of energy being who decided to take a body type form or something like that, not gods. Gods wouldn't really own a dimension, thats a demi god type thing, nearly all demi gods that would be at his level Mephisto, zarathos, Satan etc are connected to there dimension making weak once they leave, his power level remains the same.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
both are chthonic gods and both use chaos magic

I reckon the guy with the fire skull and exists in a firey plane is Satanic.

And the one who looks like a formless octopus is Cthonic .

Originally posted by kakuzu
Lol how can you seriously vote for Dormammu? Let look at who owns what

Dormammu owns one dimension which he had help with his sister to take over.

Shuma gorath cannot die and has taken over 1000 realities by himself?

This is a no contest lol. You don't even have to post feats from Shuma gorath thats how easily he wins lol

The hyperbole is strong with this one.....

Dude you realize Dormammu has been called the ruler of hundreds of dimensions too right? It means nothing since we don't know who or what inhabited said dimensions.

Fact remains, the ONLY thing we saw on panel that was even slightly impressive from Gorath was his creation of that voodoo doll of Earth. That's it.

Dormammu's gone up against way more impressive people (Odin, Eternity, Zom, Mephiso/Hela/Pluto/Daimon Hellstrom, etc..) and he's likewise unkillable. His fight against Eternity caused worlds to ignite. He's fought Odin himself in Asgard to a standstill. He's chained Zom. It took the combined power of Mephisto/Pluto/Hela/Daimon Hellstrom to drive him off.

The whole "unkillable" thing is over done anyway. How many times has Mephisto, Satannish, Dormammu and crew been killed only to resurface later no worse for wear?

Originally posted by kakuzu
Dormammu isn't a god he is and energy being with his sister from a race of energy being who decided to take a body type form or something like that, not gods. Gods wouldn't really own a dimension, thats a demi god type thing, nearly all demi gods that would be at his level Mephisto, zarathos, Satan etc are connected to there dimension making weak once they leave, his power level remains the same.

You realize Gorath has been pwned in his dimension and outside it right? Strange has humiliated Gorath every time they fought. Gorath's most recent appearances are so embarrassing I'm amazed his fans can still rely on the hype to keep the illusion going.

I could post some humiliating scans of Gorath being 'punched' in the eye by one of Sue's forcefields, tripped up by Vertigo (balance is his biggest weakness it seems), etc..

Originally posted by zopzop
The hyperbole is strong with this one.....

Dude you realize Dormammu has been called the ruler of hundreds of dimensions too right? It means nothing since we don't know who or what inhabited said dimensions.

Fact remains, the ONLY thing we saw on panel that was even slightly impressive from Gorath was his creation of that voodoo doll of Earth. That's it.

Dormammu's gone up against way more impressive people (Odin, Eternity, Zom, Mephiso/Hela/Pluto/Daimon Hellstrom, etc..) and he's likewise unkillable. His fight against Eternity caused worlds to ignite. He's fought Odin himself in Asgard to a standstill. He's chained Zom. It took the combined power of Mephisto/Pluto/Hela/Daimon Hellstrom to drive him off.

The whole "unkillable" thing is over done anyway. How many times has Mephisto, Satannish, Dormammu and crew been killed only to resurface later no worse for wear?


1. Yeah but regardless he has one main one and Shuma still has 1,000. We've seen a few more but its been so long since I read his stuff I vaguely remember it. Shuma hasn't ever been killed though he's only been bfred. It was eternity who chained Zom not Dorm. Yes most of Shumas stuff isn't seen he is one of those assumed characters mostly.

No it was Dormammu. But Eternity had to finish the job by imprisoning him in the Amphora and banishing him beyond all space and time.

And again, we have no clue what the inhabitants of those dimensions were capable of (both in Dormammu and Gorath's cases).

Originally posted by zopzop
No it was Dormammu. But Eternity had to finish the job by imprisoning him in the Amphora and banishing him beyond all space and time.

And again, we have no clue what the inhabitants of those dimensions were capable of (both in Dormammu and Gorath's cases).

Yeah I knew eternity had some play in that lol. Yeah it isn't known, but in terms of scale though taking over a dimension and reality isn't a reality bigger? A dimension be like Asgard or something right? Reality be like 616 I think not sure how big a dimension could e anyway

Yeah it's confusing, the whole dimension thing. Some forum members posted scans of 616 reality being considered a multiverse because of all the pocket dimensions that accompany it like Asgard, the "Hell" dimensions, Olympus, etc...

So ultimately I have no clue

Regarding Sue hurting Shuma, and vertigo tripping him, he was asleep most of that fight. Once he woke up, Strange had to finish the fight himself at stonehenge. Shuma-Gorath takes awhile to manifest himself fully in this dimension, he hasn't actually been here at full power since prehistoric days when Sise-Nig put him to sleep and banished him. At his full power in his own realm, or fully manifested, he's on par with eternity. And the way Strange beat is impossible for anyone else to duplicate. He used Shuma's own power to defeat him. And he still had to commit suicide at the end.

Whosoever defeats Shuma-Gorath, becomes Shuma-Gorath. Strange had to destroy his own ego after beating Shuma. A large portion of Strange's artifacts are dedicated specifically to keeping him out of this dimension. Hell, he took over the Ancient One's mind.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah it's confusing, the whole dimension thing. Some forum members posted scans of 616 reality being considered a multiverse because of all the pocket dimensions that accompany it like Asgard, the "Hell" dimensions, Olympus, etc...

So ultimately I have no clue Yeah that is true it has been counted like one lol. It has been alot made through the years, Not enough info on the true to truly win, Marvel should just have strange stop pwning Shuma and let him fight Dorm.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Regarding Sue hurting Shuma, and vertigo tripping him, he was asleep most of that fight. Once he woke up, Strange had to finish the fight himself at stonehenge. Shuma-Gorath takes awhile to manifest himself fully in this dimension, he hasn't actually been here at full power since prehistoric days when Sise-Nig put him to sleep and banished him. At his full power in his own realm, or fully manifested, he's on par with eternity. And the way Strange beat is impossible for anyone else to duplicate. He used Shuma's own power to defeat him. And he still had to commit suicide at the end.

Whosoever defeats Shuma-Gorath, becomes Shuma-Gorath. Strange had to destroy his own ego after beating Shuma. A large portion of Strange's artifacts are dedicated specifically to keeping him out of this dimension. Hell, he took over the Ancient One's mind.
Thats very true but since Strange and Shuma have been depowered they literally on there last occasion had Strange go to his dimension and beat him alone and come back and remark at how weak he's gotten(or how weak the writers had made him lol) Yes that is what I was forgetting I should had just looked his bio up for that lol

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Regarding Sue hurting Shuma, and vertigo tripping him, he was asleep most of that fight. Once he woke up, Strange had to finish the fight himself at stonehenge.

No Trickster, he was wide awake. What makes it worse, is that later, 3 of the FF lose their powers and it's just the Human Torch and the Salem Seven vs Gorath and Scratch and they were holding their own. Strange shows up, tp's Gorath to Stonehenge (against Gorath's will by the way) and pwns him there. Sure Strange got beat up but he won and banished Gorath.

Like I said, Shuma needs time or a sacrifice to get up to full strength here. Beating him on earth isn't that hard, if you've got the juice. It's taking him down when he's at full strength that's hard.

Zop u have some serious anti-shuma rage going ever since that greatest demons discussion.

Shuma Gorarth takes Dormammu down hard. There is no comparison. g-asskick

Dormammu really doesn't need prep like Strange did to beat Shuma. He can kill himself and just reform once he absorbs Shuma and goes about his day.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Zop u have some serious anti-shuma rage going ever since that greatest demons discussion.

In your opinion. I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of scans in Gorath's favor are either all hyperbole or highly questionable. That's all. In fact, I was HOPING Gorath would r@pe stomp other demons because I was gonna make a VS thread based on Marvel Tarot correspondences but I held off till I saw more scans in Gorath's favor.

That whole idea is now shot to hell because I'm not convinced Gorath could hang. Too bad, it could have been fun.

Wow, zopzop is talking his usual crap about Shuma.

Dormammu is only above Shuma with his stupid 'cosmic axis' plot device. Aside from that he gets stomped. Strange even recognizes Shuma's superiority. This isn't even a fight. Plus, the Defenders mini-series was used as a joke by Keith Giffen. Dormammu spend the entire time complaining that Umar didn't love him, and Umar was more concerned how to seduce the Hulk.

well i was dormammu in MvC 3 and i beat shuma pretty bad...so ill give it dormy via MvC 3 rape

Originally posted by bbrem123
well i was dormammu in MvC 3 and i beat shuma pretty bad...so ill give it dormy via MvC 3 rape

If we're going to bring MvC3 into the picture it's suggested by Dormammu's character entrance quote "what is thy will Ancient One?" that Shuma is above Dormammu.

But of course you know game things don't mean anything.

Originally posted by CortSether
If we're going to bring MvC3 into the picture it's suggested by Dormammu's character entrance quote "what is thy will Ancient One?" that Shuma is above Dormammu.

But of course you know game things don't mean anything.

haha for real?...im gonna have to check that out

Originally posted by CortSether
Wow, zopzop is talking his usual crap about Shuma.

Dormammu is only above Shuma with his stupid 'cosmic axis' plot device. Aside from that he gets stomped. Strange even recognizes Shuma's superiority. This isn't even a fight. Plus, the Defenders mini-series was used as a joke by Keith Giffen. Dormammu spend the entire time complaining that Umar didn't love him, and Umar was more concerned how to seduce the Hulk.

Then what about the Marvel Knights Four arc? Where Gorath was being tripped up like crippled child by Vertigo (exploiting his biggest weakness)? How about a nearly powerless FF (only Torch still had his powers) and the Salem Seven (talk about D-listers) holding their own and actually embarrassing Gorath till Strange showed up and handed him his ass?

Or the Invaders Now arc where a bunch of ghosts were holding him off while the Invaders completely ignored him and focused on the super powered Nazis?

shuma for the stomp
!

Originally posted by zopzop
In your opinion. I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of scans in Gorath's favor are either all hyperbole or highly questionable. That's all. In fact, I was HOPING Gorath would r@pe stomp other demons because I was gonna make a VS thread based on Marvel Tarot correspondences but I held off till I saw more scans in Gorath's favor.

That whole idea is now shot to hell because I'm not convinced Gorath could hang. Too bad, it could have been fun. When the vast majority of scans are all "hyperbole" don't you think it just might be his standard if the writers keep doing it.

Originally posted by Uriel005
When the vast majority of scans are all "hyperbole" don't you think it just might be his standard if the writers keep doing it.

not how it works...they do the same with sentry and nobody acknowledges the statements as true.

Originally posted by bbrem123
not how it works...they do the same with sentry and nobody acknowledges the statements as true. just like SBP cause they are both whiny prats.

yup haha

Originally posted by zopzop
Then what about the Marvel Knights Four arc? Where Gorath was being tripped up like crippled child by Vertigo (exploiting his biggest weakness)?

I'm amazed that you use that one WIS incident to back up anything. Gorath was never shown to have a Vertigo weakness before or after so it was the writer of that arc being clueless about who Gorath actually was.

How about a nearly powerless FF (only Torch still had his powers) and the Salem Seven (talk about D-listers) holding their own and actually embarrassing Gorath till Strange showed up and handed him his ass?

Holding their own? No. They were all getting their asses kicked with no chance of winning even against a hungry and severely weak Shuma (states by the narration) and didn't even damage him. They only survived because Strange showed up, who almost died trying to teleport a weak Shuma out of reality 616 by leading the battle to Stonehenge

Or the Invaders Now arc where a bunch of ghosts were holding him off while the Invaders completely ignored him and focused on the super powered Nazis?

Why try to make it out like they were holding off against Shuma's powers when that clearly wasn't the case at all? They merely were used to prevent Shuma-Gorath from crossing through into earth 616 entirely while the warp was still open. No matter how you try and spin it they were all screwed without the Spear of Destiny.

Love how you ignore Shuma-Gorath's encounter with Sise-Neg or that the Vishanti were unable to destroy him. All your criticisms are against a Shuma-Gorath not even close to full power...and yet you want to make every excuse for why Strange got his ass kicked by Hulk even with Zom's power surging through him

Originally posted by CortSether
I'm amazed that you use that one WIS incident to back up anything. Gorath was never shown to have a Vertigo weakness before or after so it was the writer of that arc being clueless about who Gorath actually was.

The fact remains ON PANEL, it was said he has a vertigo/balance weakness. Face it.



Where was it stated Gorath was hungry and weak? Lol even if true, we have yet ANOTHER weakness on top of his vertigo/balance weakness. Keep making excuses for this fairy. And Strange didn't almost die, he was just beaten up badly. Lol all bruised and stuff like he actually fist fought a tentacled monster.




Lol, now it's a weakness vs a magic spear! Add this to his hunger weakness and balance weakness

The Zom/Huk fight was explained both in WWH 4 and later in Incredible Hulks 619-620, ON PANEL. So cry more.

Originally posted by Uriel005
When the vast majority of scans are all "hyperbole" don't you think it just might be his standard if the writers keep doing it.

The vast majority of those hyperbolic comments were from ONE issue. ONE! Try again.

Originally posted by zopzop

The fact remains ON PANEL, it was said he has a vertigo/balance weakness. Face it.


Yeah, and on-panel Wolverine and Black Panther have both beaten the snot out of Silver Surfer. Doesn't make it valid when it contradicts their power sets. The vertigo weakness was something the writer pulled out of his ass and has no basis on anything before or after, or Strange would have tried to exploit something as simple as this.

Where was it stated Gorath was hungry and weak?

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/4543/shumagorathresurrected8.jpg

Lol even if true, we have yet ANOTHER weakness on top of his vertigo/balance weakness. Keep making excuses for this fairy. And Strange didn't almost die, he was just beaten up badly. Lol all bruised and stuff like he actually fist fought a tentacled monster.

Not really. First off, the vertigo weakness was clearly WIS/PIS. For one thing, a God's physical form doesn't determine its strengths and weaknesses. Shuma-Gorath can shapeshift into anything it desires so saying vertigo would be an inherent weakness in Shuma-Gorath itself is absolutely idiotic.

Secondly, it's not as if Shuma-Gorath has to have long slumbers at regular intervals. It was stated by Ebora that Shuma-Gorath yearned for rest once, but that would be its final slumber. Because the FF incident is the very next time Shuma-Gorath was actually used that means he was recovering from his fight with Strange beforehand. We don't know how long it took for Shuma's energy to manifest itself back into his realm after Strange released it. But either way one looks at it it is clear that Shuma-Gorath was not even a sliver of its full power when Scratch summoned him. If you're going to stick to the Zom thing then stop bringing up FF because it in no way shows Shuma-Gorath at his full power. Or else we'll say a regular Doctor Strange is automatically > Galactus because Strange took him down once with a simple 'Images of Ikkon' attack.

Lol, now it's a weakness vs a magic spear! Add this to his hunger weakness and balance weakness

I'm sure any other Marvel entity would be harmed by the spear that freakin' pierced the side of Jesus f'n Christ! Nothing is superior to Christ power. Spear of Destiny has pwned Spectre before and it's treated in the same high regard in DC and Marvel.

The Zom/Huk fight was explained both in WWH 4 and later in Incredible Hulks 619-620, ON PANEL. So cry more.

I only bring up the Zom thing since you love to use WIS/PIS to back up your anti-Shuma thing you've got raging since Day 1.

Originally posted by CortSether
Yeah, and on-panel Wolverine and Black Panther have both beaten the snot out of Silver Surfer. Doesn't make it valid when it contradicts their power sets. The vertigo weakness was something the writer pulled out of his ass and has no basis on anything before or after, or Strange would have tried to exploit something as simple as this.

Strange didn't need to exploit any weakness vs Gorath. Strange has owned Gorath every time they fought. Those D-Listers and Powerless FF needed to exploit it because they were desperate.



But it's right there, on panel! Obviously someone felt Gorath has a balance weakness.



LOL. Gorath struggling to reform after his fight with Strange! Sigh. Zom was dealt with by the LIVING TRIBUNAL, not some mortal sorcerer!

And why do you hold Strange's victory against Jobber King Galactus against Ikonn? Dr. Strange took him down fair and square calling on the power of Ikonn. Live with it.



This means nothing. "Holy" type attacks only work on certain demons. "Purity" bolts like those used against Mephisto (by Surfer's pure soul) or Dr. Strange on Chthon won't work on others like Set or Zom. In the same way holy water and garlic don't work on werewolves but silver does.



Bring it up all you want, it's actually explained ON PANEL. So it's not like it's my opinion or anything. The reason I "rage" is because Gorath fans love bringing up hyperbole as a feat!

PS what issue was that scan from? Because if it occurred BEFORE Gorath manifested on Earth, it's pointless.

Originally posted by zopzop

Strange didn't need to exploit any weakness vs Gorath. Strange has owned Gorath every time they fought. Those D-Listers and Powerless FF needed to exploit it because they were desperate.

Actually Strange had been getting his ass kicked every encounter until he found some way to use the plot to get out of there alive. And in the instance of combating Shuma-Gorath, you keep failing to mention that it wasn't Strange who entered the realm in the first place, he even says himself that Strange is no more. Also, he couldn't even harm Shuma-Gorath until Shuma's own powers were surging through him, which Shuma-Gorath caused to happen by itself, btw.


But it's right there, on panel! Obviously someone felt Gorath has a balance weakness.


Okay, but you're not realizing that a writer can't just pull something out of his ass that contradicts everything else previously established and call it legit.

LOL. Gorath struggling to reform after his fight with Strange! Sigh. Zom was dealt with by the LIVING TRIBUNAL, not some mortal sorcerer!

That mortal sorcerer was stalemating Zom for a good while before Zom was wished away. Mortal Strange was getting absolutely pwned from the get go in the Ancient One's mind and got the hell beat out of hiim by a hungry and weak Shuma-Gorath who couldn't even expel energy aside from flinging his tentacles. Compared to Zom who had a hard time against a noob Strange and exists as a remnant of his former self. Why can't he reform fully? :/

And why do you hold Strange's victory against Jobber King Galactus against Ikonn? Dr. Strange took him down fair and square calling on the power of Ikonn. Live with it.

I'm not saying the feat wasn't legit. What I'm saying is that you can't use that showing as a standard for Galactus' power, same as how you can't use a hungry Shuma to make an argument that he's weak.


This means nothing. "Holy" type attacks only work on certain demons. "Purity" bolts like those used against Mephisto (by Surfer's pure soul) or Dr. Strange on Chthon won't work on others like Set or Zom. In the same way holy water and garlic don't work on werewolves but silver does.

So you're saying Earth's elder gods can take on the spear of destiny? Sure thing. It isn't a mere 'holy' type attack. It's the Spear with Christ's powers. And yet all it did was put Shuma-Gorath back in his portal, not kill him. Interestingly, it's already been established that Shuma-Gorath cannot die by Thanos.


Bring it up all you want, it's actually explained ON PANEL. So it's not like it's my opinion or anything. The reason I "rage" is because Gorath fans love bringing up hyperbole as a feat!

His encounter with Sise-Neg and the Vishanti being unable to rid of Shuma-Gorath are more than hyperbole. And the battle between Strange/Arioch w/Shuma's power vs Shuma-Gorath was felt from 1,000 planes away. Also the fact that Shuma-Gorath has shown that he could destroy earth without effort if he actually wanted to without even having to go there. None of the other earth gods have feats like that. It's Shuma's own desire that keeps it from happening. Dormammu was only ever above Shuma with the cosmic axis plot device, and that whole arc was written as a joke anyway. Then there's the fact that Strange even acknowledges that Dormammu is too big-headed to admit inferiority.

PS what issue was that scan from? Because if it occurred BEFORE Gorath manifested on Earth, it's pointless.

Dude, Shuma-Gorath is shown on-panel in that scan...

Originally posted by CortSether
Actually Strange had been getting his ass kicked every encounter until he found some way to use the plot to get out of there alive. And in the instance of combating Shuma-Gorath, you keep failing to mention that it wasn't Strange who entered the realm in the first place, he even says himself that Strange is no more. Also, he couldn't even harm Shuma-Gorath until Shuma's own powers were surging through him, which Shuma-Gorath caused to happen by itself, btw.

But Strange still managed, on his own, to pwn Gorath every time they fought. Strange has never owned Set or Zom that way, EVER.



Gorath was crawling around on his tentacles and belly in the Seis-neg flash back so its not exactly a stretch to say he could have balance issues.



Mortal Strange WITH the AO's power vs a SHACKLED Zom was holding his own until he got knocked out and Zom didn't finish him off because he was panicking at the coming of the Living Tribunal.

He CAN fully reform, but the Zomling is never given a chance to go through with it's plans.



Actually yes you can. Galactus is KNOWN to job, just like Gorath. But at least Galactus has fights vs other Cosmic Beings/Abstracts/Gods, Gorath doesn't.



I'm saying you can't just ASSUME it will work because it's NEVER been used against them before. Some demons are vulnerable to "holy" type attacks while others aren't. Set and Zom for sure aren't or Strange would have used this tactic.

The Old Ones CAN die, they just reform. The same as Set and Zom and Mephisto and Satannish and............



His encounter with Neg is meaningless as Neg couldn't be bothered with him till Strange begged him to help the ape men that Gorath was picking on! The Vishanti being unable to deal with Gorath means nothing till we see some combat feats from them.

Lot's of beings can destroy the Earth if they wanted too! Hell Satannish and Mephisto going at it in a pocket dimension was wrecking the 616 reality.

The same Mephisto (and Erishigal, Pluto, Yama, Ahpuch. Hela ran for her life) that was INSTA-KILLED by Demogorge. Yet Demogorge has NO planetary destruction feats.

Originally posted by zopzop
Based purely on feats and previous opponents, I'm gonna say Dormammu for the healthy majority.

Yeah. Based on feats Dormammu is most definitely above Shuma-Gorath. Realistically the only way Shuma-Gorath wins is if the battle is in the Chaos Dimension, where he is near omnipotent. Anywhere else Dormammu takes this for sure.

Even in the Chaos Dimension Dormammu still has a decent chance. Since Doctor Strange beat Shuma there and said that he's gotten so much weaker it's pathetic.... Words of that nature have never been said to Dormammu. And that's just fact...

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize Gorath has been pwned in his dimension and outside it right? Strange has humiliated Gorath every time they fought. Gorath's most recent appearances are so embarrassing I'm amazed his fans can still rely on the hype to keep the illusion going.

I could post some humiliating scans of Gorath being 'punched' in the eye by one of Sue's forcefields, tripped up by Vertigo (balance is his biggest weakness it seems), etc.. you relize that dormamu was beaten by spiderman he sent him back into his dimention by a brick wall and kick from spiderman than closed it using iron mans machine smh shuma cannot be hurt except by powerful epic magic. dormamu lost to spidy kick brick wall can't be more embarrassing than that

Dr Strange usually hands Dormammu his ass most of the times with difficulty.

Dr Strange usually banishes/defeats Shoma Gorath with great difficulty and extreme sacrifice.

All the other scans/sources/feats/whatever for Dormammu's case couldn't invalidate that.

The only place Dormmammu might have the edge against Shuma Gorath is UMVC3 where his mixups are deadly and got buffed but shuma can still beat him if a good player uses him

Shuma and Dormy would probably just put on a little Barry White and exchange some Sweet Lovin'.

Originally posted by cpd12589
Yeah. Based on feats Dormammu is most definitely above Shuma-Gorath. Realistically the only way Shuma-Gorath wins is if the battle is in the Chaos Dimension, where he is near omnipotent. Anywhere else Dormammu takes this for sure.

Even in the Chaos Dimension Dormammu still has a decent chance. Since Doctor Strange beat Shuma there and said that he's gotten so much weaker it's pathetic.... Words of that nature have never been said to Dormammu. And that's just fact...

Your entire post is embarrassing.

Dormammu is no stronger than Odin.

Dormammu wins

lolno.

Still Shuma

Originally posted by Hulkbuster1
you relize that dormamu was beaten by spiderman he sent him back into his dimention by a brick wall and kick from spiderman than closed it using iron mans machine smh shuma cannot be hurt except by powerful epic magic. dormamu lost to spidy kick brick wall can't be more embarrassing than that

That was from a cartoon......



Based on feats Dormammu is without a doubt greater. Most of Shuma-Goraths "feats" are hyperbole. Doctor Strange temporarily destroyed Shuma-Gorath. Doctor Strange has never temporarily destroyed Dormammu. Dormammu claimed to be at least an equal of Zeus and Odin close to his first appearance in Strange Tales. Since then he's become much much more powerful. Beating Eternity and merging with his essence becoming "lord of all creation" then created his own version of Earth with his own Doctor Strange as his servant, imprisoning Gaea, beating Doctor Strange at least as many times as he has him, actually killing Doctor Strange when he became the new Ancient One, and making Phoenix look stupid is just a few of the actual feats he has. Also Odin went for the stalemate in their game of chess because he was afraid of losing to him.

Shuma-Gorath is no doubt more powerful within the Chaos Dimension, but anywhere else Dormammu would most definitely beat him. So if your saying at their maximum power in the dimension of their choosing then Shuma-Gorath is more powerful. But then again not if you count Dormmamu when he was merged with Eternity. Strange considers Eternity the most powerful magical entity in existence (other than the Living Tribunal) and Dormammu beat him. So that has to say something about his raw power and intellect. Also standing on his own against Eternity the first time they battled. Eternity didn't even get close to destroying him, he just sent him to another dimension.



Doctor Strange only defeats Dormammu with help. In a all out battle he gets owned. He's beaten him with the help of Clea, Eternity, fighting without powers, or when he gets betrayed by Umar. And when Doctor Strange indirectly beat him due to Mordo's incompetence. When it comes down to raw power, or just a one on one fight Dormammu most definitely wins. Especially now... Doctor Strange has even said that Dormammu is his "most terrible foe" and that "at full power no one could stand against". Compared to Doctor Strange he's just in a different league...

Originally posted by CortSether
lolno.

ok fine we will go by hyperbole fine....shuma wins



wait even with hyperbole strange has said dormammu is a greater threat

Originally posted by bbrem123
ok fine we will go by hyperbole fine....shuma wins



wait even with hyperbole strange has said dormammu is a greater threat

Except he's already stated that he has never faced such power when confronting Shuma-Gorath, so if you want to go that route than Shuma still wins.

Originally posted by CortSether
Except he's already stated that he has never faced such power when confronting Shuma-Gorath, so if you want to go that route than Shuma still wins.

Except I can post a scan of him saying the exact same thing about Satannish and this took place after he confronted Shuma Gorath multiple times.

Dormammu wins.

Originally posted by zopzop
Except I can post a scan of him saying the exact same thing about Satannish and this took place after he confronted Shuma Gorath multiple times.

Originally posted by zopzop
Except I can post a scan of him saying the exact same thing about Satannish and this took place after he confronted Shuma Gorath multiple times.

Point is, it's still taken Strange a hell of a lot more effort and plot device to confront Shuma, whereas Dormammu has only ever done anything worthwhile with plot device in his favor. Certainly he's never established that his personal powers are anywhere close to Shuma's.

Dormammu is no stronger than Odin. No point in arguing that he can take on Shuma.

Originally posted by carver9
Dormammu wins.

Posts like that are one of the reasons the comic versus forum on KMC has such a bad reputation online.

Originally posted by CortSether
Point is, it's still taken Strange a hell of a lot more effort and plot device to confront Shuma, whereas Dormammu has only ever done anything worthwhile with plot device in his favor. Certainly he's never established that his personal powers are anywhere close to Shuma's.

Dormammu is no stronger than Odin. No point in arguing that he can take on Shuma.


And what exactly is Gorath's power level? He's never confronted another God or Cosmic like Dormammu has. Dormammu has his metaphysical showdown with Odin in Asgard (that appeared to untrained eyes like a game of chess), imprisoning Gaea, his first fight with Eternity, his war vs the other Hell Lords (Mephisto, Daimon Hellstrom, Satannish was revealed to be his creation and Hela and Pluto withdrew relying on their Pantheons to protect them), and more I'm probably missing.

Gorath doesn't have the feats and more importantly the fights to back up all the hyperbole.

Originally posted by zopzop

Gorath doesn't have the feats and more importantly the fights to back up all the hyperbole.

yup

Originally posted by zopzop
And what exactly is Gorath's power level? He's never confronted another God or Cosmic like Dormammu has. Dormammu has his metaphysical showdown with Odin in Asgard (that appeared to untrained eyes like a game of chess), imprisoning Gaea, his first fight with Eternity, his war vs the other Hell Lords (Mephisto, Daimon Hellstrom, Satannish was revealed to be his creation and Hela and Pluto withdrew relying on their Pantheons to protect them), and more I'm probably missing.

Gorath doesn't have the feats and more importantly the fights to back up all the hyperbole.

@CortSether: zopzop's right man. Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have the feats to be even in the same league as Dormammu. Dormammu is just simply much more accomplished. Dormammu claimed to be at least on Odin's(or Zeus's) level during the period he stole Doctor Strange's body, and that was in the 70's. Since then he's become much more powerful and looking at his accomplishments since then one would be crazy to say that he's still on Odin's level. Especially since he beat Odin in Asgard and Loki has heard Odin speak about Dormammu with great respect.

Shuma-Gorath has never beaten Doctor Strange. Unless you consider having Doctor Strange kill the Ancient One a win... He's also been beaten by Conan and Crom, and of course Sise-Neg. Dormammu has at least beaten Doctor Strange as many times as he him and even killed him when he became the new Ancient One. And that was when Doctor Strange had, Phoenix, Krugarr, Firelord, Ghost Rider, and the rest of the Guardians of the Galaxy on his side. The GOTG even said that Dormammu is "the deadliest foe we'll ever face". When Dormammu stole Strange's body one of the things he was going to do was take down the Celestials but before he could do that he was betrayed by Clea and attacked by Topaz from behind along with Doctor Strange.

Shuma-Gorath no doubt has amazing power. I mean he has beings like Nightmare as his servants. But Dormammu has beings like Satannish. The most amazing thing Shuma-Gorath has done is probably stalemating the Vishanti. Which is no easy feat but pales in comparison to Dormammu's. Dormammu's feats are much greater than Shuma's and Shuma-Goraths low showings are definitely lower than Dormammu's.

Bottom line is that Dormammu is simply a greater threat being much more clever and overall more powerful. Unless Shuma-Gorath is within the Chaos Dimension Dormammu is more powerful.

Originally posted by cpd12589
@CortSether: zopzop's right man. Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have the feats to be even in the same league as Dormammu.

Forget about feats, they are secondary. Gorath doesn't have the FIGHTS to be even in the same league as Dormammu! IMHO fights > feats especially when it comes to VS threads.



I don't believe for a second Gorath has amazing power. Look how Strange humiliated Gorath AND Gorath's servants WHILE Strange was cut off from his white magic powers and the Eye of Agamotto (hell wasn't this around the same time he destroyed ALL his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands? Strange was nowhere near full power when he pwned Gorath, that's what makes the beatdown even more embarrassing).

And when did Gorath stalemate the Vishanti? People keep bringing it up but don't say from where this is taken. I know it's not from his Respect Thread :
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg
Because those scans don't say he stalemated the Vishanti or even that the Vishanti fear him. They said it's not their concern and they even undid the "evil aura" that Gorath's servant had on Strange!

Also beating Nightmare and forcing him into servitude is far from impressive. Nightmare is everyone's whipping boy anyway. I think there was a scan somewhere out there that had Strange putting Nightmare in a full nelson or something!

dormy

and my one word answer is my own

carry on all

Originally posted by zopzop


Forget about feats, they are secondary. Gorath doesn't have the FIGHTS to be even in the same league as Dormammu! IMHO fights > feats especially when it comes to VS threads.



I don't believe for a second Gorath has amazing power. Look how Strange humiliated Gorath AND Gorath's servants WHILE Strange was cut off from his white magic powers and the Eye of Agamotto (hell wasn't this around the same time he destroyed ALL his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands? Strange was nowhere near full power when he pwned Gorath, that's what makes the beatdown even more embarrassing).

And when did Gorath stalemate the Vishanti? People keep bringing it up but don't say from where this is taken. I know it's not from his Respect Thread :
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg
Because those scans don't say he stalemated the Vishanti or even that the Vishanti fear him. They said it's not their concern and they even undid the "evil aura" that Gorath's servant had on Strange!

Also beating Nightmare and forcing him into servitude is far from impressive. Nightmare is everyone's whipping boy anyway. I think there was a scan somewhere out there that had Strange putting Nightmare in a full nelson or something! kk... so because strange pulled a dark magic that would pretty much guarantee an instawin against anyone he used it against its a bad showing.... right so anyone else would fair better when Strange takes their powers as his own + his own abilities as sorcerer supreme... right because we all know that gods/demons can overcome something that is their power + the power held by someone holding a cosmic position... right.

Originally posted by zopzop


Forget about feats, they are secondary. Gorath doesn't have the FIGHTS to be even in the same league as Dormammu! IMHO fights > feats especially when it comes to VS threads.



I don't believe for a second Gorath has amazing power. Look how Strange humiliated Gorath AND Gorath's servants WHILE Strange was cut off from his white magic powers and the Eye of Agamotto (hell wasn't this around the same time he destroyed ALL his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands? Strange was nowhere near full power when he pwned Gorath, that's what makes the beatdown even more embarrassing).

And when did Gorath stalemate the Vishanti? People keep bringing it up but don't say from where this is taken. I know it's not from his Respect Thread :
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg
Because those scans don't say he stalemated the Vishanti or even that the Vishanti fear him. They said it's not their concern and they even undid the "evil aura" that Gorath's servant had on Strange!

Also beating Nightmare and forcing him into servitude is far from impressive. Nightmare is everyone's whipping boy anyway. I think there was a scan somewhere out there that had Strange putting Nightmare in a full nelson or something!

When the Vishanti said "Long ago we fought the UNSPEAKABLE wickness of Shuma-Gorath" most people take that as the battle ended in a stalemate since neither side is dead. But your really right since details of the battle are undisclosed. I mean the Vishanti could've temporarily destroyed Gorath like Strange did or it could've been the other way around. But the way I take that quote is the Vishanti fought Shuma-Gorath in his dimension and the battle ended in stalemate since the Vishanti speak about him with much respect and dread. I say they fought in the Chaos Dimension because outside of it the Vishanti really should've taken him down pretty quick IMO.

Also yeah that battle with Strange and Gorath in the Chaos Dimension was around the same time Strange gave his artifacts to Agamotto for safe keeping. He was originally going to destroy them but gave them to Agamotto to hold instead.

Even though Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have many fights I still think he's a vastly powerful entity. Just not overall more powerful than Dormammu. Put it this way, Dormammu has to be feared by many more than Shuma-Gorath because of his lack of fights. When Gorath invades a dimension he must sleep for a LONG time too so even though he's very old that might have a lot to do with his lack of conflicts. Shuma-Gorath commands Nightmare, Sligguth, Ebora, N'Gabthoth, Dagoth, Kathulos, and Living Buddha. But none of those demons are as powerful as Satannish which Dormammu commands along with all the residents of the Dark Dimension, the Mindless Ones, and many more.



Doctor Strange even told Shuma-Gorath he's gotten so much weaker it's embarrassing... So how is it not a bad showing? When a mortal insults a dimensional ruler and then hands him his ass in his own dimension where he's supposed to be near omnipotent. Sounds like a bad showing to me. Also Shuma-Gorath has never beaten Doctor Strange, ever.

Originally posted by Uriel005
kk... so because strange pulled a dark magic that would pretty much guarantee an instawin against anyone he used it against its a bad showing.... right so anyone else would fair better when Strange takes their powers as his own + his own abilities as sorcerer supreme... right because we all know that gods/demons can overcome something that is their power + the power held by someone holding a cosmic position... right.

What are you talking about? During the arc when Strange went on to kill Gorath, he was at his lowest point power wise because he DESTROYED all his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands! That's why he had to resort to black magic! He didn't have the Eye (not because he destroyed it but because he felt unworthy of it and didn't use it, you'll notice it's not on him), he didn't have any of his other artifacts though because they were gone! That's what makes that win over Gorath so very humiliating (for Gorath). In fact, the loss of his artifacts is what CAUSED all those demons to be set loose, since it weakened the spells banishing them from 616 reality.

Originally posted by cpd12589

And what exactly is Gorath's power level? He's never confronted another God or Cosmic like Dormammu has. Dormammu has his metaphysical showdown with Odin in Asgard (that appeared to untrained eyes like a game of chess), imprisoning Gaea, his first fight with Eternity, his war vs the other Hell Lords (Mephisto, Daimon Hellstrom, Satannish was revealed to be his creation and Hela and Pluto withdrew relying on their Pantheons to protect them), and more I'm probably missing.

Gorath doesn't have the feats and more importantly the fights to back up all the hyperbole.

You make it out like any of what you listed makes Dormammu > Shuma when it actually doesn't. Shuma was already stated to be far stronger than the hell lords by Kaluu, a peer of the Ancient One and a master of black magic, one who would know how strong hell lords are.

And nothing involving Dormammu and Eternity is impressive, considering he's only managed anything with a cosmic axis plot device, and when he had confronted Eternity before he got stomped like a beotch in a panel and a half.

Originally posted by cpd12589
Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have the feats to be even in the same league as Dormammu. Dormammu is just simply much more accomplished. Dormammu claimed to be at least on Odin's(or Zeus's) level during the period he stole Doctor Strange's body, and that was in the 70's. Since then he's become much more powerful and looking at his accomplishments since then one would be crazy to say that he's still on Odin's level. Especially since he beat Odin in Asgard and Loki has heard Odin speak about Dormammu with great respect.

Except it's pretty much spelled out all over the story arc that Steve Englehart introduced Shuma in that he's far greater threat Strange had tangled with before. When Shuma taunts Strange with Dormammu's image admitting inferiority Strange says the real Dormammu would "never admit" inferiority, which is essentially Strange acknowledging that Dormammu is inferior but would be too proud to actually say it.

Originally posted by cpd12589 Shuma-Gorath has never beaten Doctor Strange. Unless you consider having Doctor Strange kill the Ancient One a win... He's also been beaten by Conan and Crom, and of course Sise-Neg.

Except he was not actually ever fought by Conan or Crom. Both had to use the Iron Bound Books of Shuma-Gorath (a personal plot device) merely to contain him and then banish him. There was never a direct confrontation at all.

And Shuma wasn't even aware Sise-Neg was there, that's not a battle. In any case, if you're implying that Dormammu would have the slightest chance against Sise-Neg at that point in time you're sorely mistaken.

Originally posted by cpd12589 Dormammu has at least beaten Doctor Strange as many times as he him and even killed him when he became the new Ancient One. And that was when Doctor Strange had, Phoenix, Krugarr, Firelord, Ghost Rider, and the rest of the Guardians of the Galaxy on his side. The GOTG even said that Dormammu is "the deadliest foe we'll ever face". When Dormammu stole Strange's body one of the things he was going to do was take down the Celestials but before he could do that he was betrayed by Clea and attacked by Topaz from behind along with Doctor Strange.

That's all fine and dandy, but they are entirely separate situations. Strange has never been anywhere near the power he was when fighting Shuma-Gorath in any instance of fighting Dormammu.

Originally posted by cpd12589 Shuma-Gorath no doubt has amazing power. I mean he has beings like Nightmare as his servants. But Dormammu has beings like Satannish.

And Shuma-Gorath has actual Old Ones like Ghaszaszh Nyirh, a God who defeated Strange and Kaluu in battle at the same time and forced them to flee after taking out Strange's eye. And he's actually enslaved a dimensional god without even having to enter his realm.

Originally posted by cpd12589 The most amazing thing Shuma-Gorath has done is probably stalemating the Vishanti. Which is no easy feat but pales in comparison to Dormammu's. Dormammu's feats are much greater than Shuma's and Shuma-Goraths low showings are definitely lower than Dormammu's.

Shuma had one low showing where he was severely weakened and depowered, which is how Strange even had a chance against him because he still got severely beat up just getting Stonehenge to banish him. Then in Invaders Now he got stabbed with the Spear of Destiny before he was able to fully manifest on Earth.

Galactus himself has been downed by Strange with a mere spell at starving levels. Arguing where Shuma stands against Dormammu based on him being defeated while severely depowered is pointless. And the Spear of Destiny is a plot device weapon for everything, DC uses it that way too.

Originally posted by cpd12589 Bottom line is that Dormammu is simply a greater threat being much more clever and overall more powerful. Unless Shuma-Gorath is within the Chaos Dimension Dormammu is more powerful.

Yeah, no. Shuma is superior to Dormammu in any plane of existence.

Originally posted by zopzop

Forget about feats, they are secondary. Gorath doesn't have the FIGHTS to be even in the same league as Dormammu! IMHO fights > feats especially when it comes to VS threads.

Here we go.

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't believe for a second Gorath has amazing power.

That's your prerogative, but narration and character statements disagree with you.


Originally posted by zopzop
Look how Strange humiliated Gorath AND Gorath's servants WHILE Strange was cut off from his white magic powers and the Eye of Agamotto (hell wasn't this around the same time he destroyed ALL his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands? Strange was nowhere near full power when he pwned Gorath, that's what makes the beatdown even more embarrassing).

And yet again you post nonsense. Strange had been given extensive tutelage by Kaluu and was getting stronger and stronger with his black magic as time went on. Before he even reached Shuma's servant Arioch he had greatly surpassed Kaluu in magical ability, and by extension the Ancient One as well. That's even shown when the energy of the realm was actually killing Kaluu while Strange was stranding just fine. So no, Strange was not weakened. But your lack of knowledge is evident.

You are correct that Strange was technically not at full power when he defeated Shuma-Gorath. But you're right for the wrong reasons. Why? Because he EXCEEDED his normal full power. Not only had he already exceeded Earth's most powerful black magician in power (Kaluu), but he was fused with a dimensional god AND also already begun to merge with Shuma, meaning he had Shuma's own power within him. Strange has never before or after had that much personal power. Dormammu would get utterly stomped by Strange if he confronted him in that state.

Originally posted by zopzop
And when did Gorath stalemate the Vishanti? People keep bringing it up but don't say from where this is taken. I know it's not from his Respect Thread :
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg
Because those scans don't say he stalemated the Vishanti or even that the Vishanti fear him. They said it's not their concern and they even undid the "evil aura" that Gorath's servant had on Strange!

See this is where logic really comes in handy, zop. They say that they "fought the unspeakable wickedness of Shuma-Gorath". That says they fought before. It's really that simple. Considering both Shuma and the Vishanti were still around, that says there was no winner. Capiche?

Originally posted by zopzop

Also beating Nightmare and forcing him into servitude is far from impressive. Nightmare is everyone's whipping boy anyway. I think there was a scan somewhere out there that had Strange putting Nightmare in a full nelson or something!

And on the other side of that we have Nightmare driving Eternity to sleep and taking control over him. ZOMG FEATS FEATS!

Originally posted by cpd12589
...But your really right since details of the battle are undisclosed. I mean the Vishanti could've temporarily destroyed Gorath like Strange did or it could've been the other way around. But the way I take that quote is the Vishanti fought Shuma-Gorath in his dimension and the battle ended in stalemate since the Vishanti speak about him with much respect and dread. I say they fought in the Chaos Dimension because outside of it the Vishanti really should've taken him down pretty quick IMO.

So because of your personal bias you say the battle must have taken place in Shuma's dimension? Silly reason.

The battle between them could have happened absolutely anywhere and arguing over where it took place is pointless. However, I will say that a battle between them would make more logical sense if it took place on Earth considering Shuma had interests in ruling it and did so for an extended period as well as Agamotto once being Earth's protector. That would actually give them a reason to battle rather than the random decision of one trying to kill of the other in their dimension.

In any case, it is a certainty that the Vishanti were not victorious against Shuma-Gorath before, neither did they even temporarily destroy him. This is known because it's even said after Strange's battle with Shuma that not even Agamotto himself had "destroyed" a Lord of Chaos.

Originally posted by cpd12589
Also yeah that battle with Strange and Gorath in the Chaos Dimension was around the same time Strange gave his artifacts to Agamotto for safe keeping. He was originally going to destroy them but gave them to Agamotto to hold instead.

And he replaced all of the white magic power with black magic that brought him to levels exceeding that which he already knew. The white magic would have been absolutely useless in his battle.

Originally posted by cpd12589
Even though Shuma-Gorath really doesn't have many fights I still think he's a vastly powerful entity. Just not overall more powerful than Dormammu.

You'd be wrong. Shuma > Dormammu



Firstly, Shuma-Gorath doesn't always need to sleep when he invades a dimension. His references to one point needing sleep are in regards to the time he was feasting on Earth and Sise-Neg put him in a slumber.

Secondly, some of those servants listed are servants of Set, a God much more powerful than Satannish. For Set's servants to give their allegiance to another God after already being Set's servants says a lot about Shuma's power and influence.


Originally posted by cpd12589 Doctor Strange even told Shuma-Gorath he's gotten so much weaker it's embarrassing... So how is it not a bad showing? When a mortal insults a dimensional ruler and then hands him his ass in his own dimension where he's supposed to be near omnipotent. Sounds like a bad showing to me. Also Shuma-Gorath has never beaten Doctor Strange, ever.

You have a scan of that quote from Strange?

And Dormammu has never fought Strange at a fraction of the power he was at when confronting Shuma, ever.

Originally posted by zopzop
What are you talking about? During the arc when Strange went on to kill Gorath, he was at his lowest point power wise because he DESTROYED all his artifacts to keep them out of Urthona's hands! That's why he had to resort to black magic! He didn't have the Eye (not because he destroyed it but because he felt unworthy of it and didn't use it, you'll notice it's not on him), he didn't have any of his other artifacts though because they were gone! That's what makes that win over Gorath so very humiliating (for Gorath). In fact, the loss of his artifacts is what CAUSED all those demons to be set loose, since it weakened the spells banishing them from 616 reality.


Once again:

Strange had been given extensive tutelage by Kaluu and was getting stronger and stronger with his black magic as time went on. Before he even reached Shuma's servant Arioch he had greatly surpassed Kaluu in magical ability, and by extension the Ancient One as well. That's even shown when the energy of the realm was actually killing Kaluu while Strange was stranding just fine. So no, Strange was not weakened. But your lack of knowledge is evident.

You are correct that Strange was technically not at full power when he defeated Shuma-Gorath. But you're right for the wrong reasons. Why? Because he EXCEEDED his normal full power. Not only had he already exceeded Earth's most powerful black magician in power (Kaluu), but he was fused with a dimensional god AND also already begun to merge with Shuma, meaning he had Shuma's own power within him. Strange has never before or after had that much personal power. Dormammu would get utterly stomped by Strange if he confronted him in that state.

Originally posted by CortSether

Once again:

Strange had been given extensive tutelage by Kaluu and was getting stronger and stronger with his black magic as time went on. Before he even reached Shuma's servant Arioch he had greatly surpassed Kaluu in magical ability, and by extension the Ancient One as well. That's even shown when the energy of the realm was actually killing Kaluu while Strange was stranding just fine. So no, Strange was not weakened. But your lack of knowledge is evident.

You are correct that Strange was technically not at full power when he defeated Shuma-Gorath. But you're right for the wrong reasons. Why? Because he EXCEEDED his normal full power. Not only had he already exceeded Earth's most powerful black magician in power (Kaluu), but he was fused with a dimensional god AND also already begun to merge with Shuma, meaning he had Shuma's own power within him. Strange has never before or after had that much personal power. Dormammu would get utterly stomped by Strange if he confronted him in that state.

Bullsh|t, the very reason the demons were free in the first place was because the spells protecting Earth cast by him and other sorcerers through the years weakened because of the loss of his artifacts!

Even the one artifact that wasn't destroyed, the Eye, he felt he was unworthy of wielding so he didn't use it.

He was nowhere near full power.

Originally posted by CortSether

See this is where logic really comes in handy, zop. They say that they "fought the unspeakable wickedness of Shuma-Gorath". That says they fought before. It's really that simple. Considering both Shuma and the Vishanti were still around, that says there was no winner. Capiche?

That could mean anything. They wouldn't even necessarily have fought directly, they could have done it through their servants, exactly like they did in that arc.

Considering Gorath never conquered 616 reality and is more or less trapped in his dimension while the Vishanti are free to roam the universe says someone for sure won. Capiche?




Too bad for you Eternity ALLOWED that to happen as a test. Nice try though.

Originally posted by zopzop

That could mean anything. They wouldn't even necessarily have fought directly, they could have done it through their servants, exactly like they did in that arc.

Considering Gorath never conquered 616 reality and is more or less trapped in his dimension while the Vishanti are free to roam the universe says someone for sure won. Capiche?

Barring its meaning being scrutinized and muddied, if we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for a perfectly decisive statement, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator / admission of power in Marvel with an axe to grind.

When you're reading a comic or watching a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader / viewer, the simplest interpretations are the only ones that really matter. In the case of Shuma-Gorath fighting the Vishanti, we can 'ask' ourselves if the Vishanti really fought Shuma literally, or we can 'throw into the equation' random 'what-ifs' coming from our imaginations. Or, we could go ahead and apply the razor and say: "The Vishanti said that they fought Shuma-Gorath, both are still around, none was said to have defeated the other, so it was a stalemate." Which are all factual conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach.

And S-G is not trapped in his dimension. He was already seen roaming space in Invaders.




Funny how you apply a special circumstance in this case but when it takes heavy plot device regarding Shuma you just ignore it and say "Strange beat Shuma, not Dormammu. Therefore, Dormammu > Shuma." Pretty funny logic.

Originally posted by zopzop
Bullsh|t, the very reason the demons were free in the first place was because the spells protecting Earth cast by him and other sorcerers through the years weakened because of the loss of his artifacts!

Even the one artifact that wasn't destroyed, the Eye, he felt he was unworthy of wielding so he didn't use it.

He was nowhere near full power.

He was weaker initially but had grown stronger with time. That's the whole reason Kaluu became his mentor and started to train him. It's clearly evident that he became much more powerful toward the end of his journey. How else do you think he was able to force Arioch to fuse with him? He had to gain a mastery over black magic, such that even Kaluu wasn't able to hold that amount of power.

Strange was far superior at the point of fighting Shuma than he ever had been, zop.

There is no question that Shuma Gorath has repeatedly been mishandled by writers. Vastly elevated titles, powers, myths, off-panel-feats and descriptions were placed upon Shuma, but have never matched up with the stories we see.

Really, poorly handled. Which is why we have the conflicts that are arising in this thread.

If "official character profile", both in and outside of stories, are to be believed, then Shuma should be the more powerful entity here.

But, as I stated, unfortunately, there is a huge gap between profile and feats.

Now, Dormammu is a different situation. Rather than being a true "deity" or foundation abstract, I have always seen him as more of a trans-level Dr. Doom, judging by his history and his feats. Of course this has brought him to a station of great power, but he still has a personality to go along with his hunger.

I would imagine that part of the reason why Shuma has never attained more on-panel greatness, is because of his lack of a "humanoid" connection with writers and possibly readers. He always seems to be behind situations, until the story peaks, then he mysteriously turns into the "monster" that must be defeated in an ultimate battle.

The writers have simply ignored the possibility of treating him as anything more than a "monster" and because of this, we never see him gaining goals, outsmarting enemies, conquering high-powers.

On the other hand, Dormammu is easier for them to connect with and so, is shown to move through the stories with elaborate actions, deep histories and powers that are desired by humans.

So, imo, the stories probably do elevate Dormammu above Shuma Gorath. But, at the same time, they probably shouldn't.

Just mho.

Waaay too many words in this thread g007-psyduck

Originally posted by Horrificus
There is no question that Shuma Gorath has repeatedly been mishandled by writers. Vastly elevated titles, powers, myths, off-panel-feats and descriptions were placed upon Shuma, but have never matched up with the stories we see.

Really, poorly handled. Which is why we have the conflicts that are arising in this thread.

If "official character profile", both in and outside of stories, are to be believed, then Shuma should be the more powerful entity here.

But, as I stated, unfortunately, there is a huge gap between profile and feats.

Now, Dormammu is a different situation. Rather than being a true "deity" or foundation abstract, I have always seen him as more of a trans-level Dr. Doom, judging by his history and his feats. Of course this has brought him to a station of great power, but he still has a personality to go along with his hunger.

I would imagine that part of the reason why Shuma has never attained more on-panel greatness, is because of his lack of a "humanoid" connection with writers and possibly readers. He always seems to be behind situations, until the story peaks, then he mysteriously turns into the "monster" that must be defeated in an ultimate battle.

The writers have simply ignored the possibility of treating him as anything more than a "monster" and because of this, we never see him gaining goals, outsmarting enemies, conquering high-powers.

On the other hand, Dormammu is easier for them to connect with and so, is shown to move through the stories with elaborate actions, deep histories and powers that are desired by humans.

So, imo, the stories probably do elevate Dormammu above Shuma Gorath. But, at the same time, they probably shouldn't.

Just mho.

like

Originally posted by Cogito
Waaay too many words in this thread g007-psyduck Yes. But, this is very important stuff.

Shuma seems like the Big-G of Magic. His powers can fluctuate big time.

Originally posted by CortSether
Barring its meaning being scrutinized and muddied, if we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for a perfectly decisive statement, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator / admission of power in Marvel with an axe to grind.

When you're reading a comic or watching a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader / viewer, the simplest interpretations are the only ones that really matter. In the case of Shuma-Gorath fighting the Vishanti, we can 'ask' ourselves if the Vishanti really fought Shuma literally, or we can 'throw into the equation' random 'what-ifs' coming from our imaginations. Or, we could go ahead and apply the razor and say: "The Vishanti said that they fought Shuma-Gorath, both are still around, none was said to have defeated the other, so it was a stalemate." Which are all factual conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach.

And S-G is not trapped in his dimension. He was already seen roaming space in Invaders.


Up till that Strange arc, he WAS trapped in his dimension and that's why he was trying to break out through the Ancient One.



What special circumstances? Eternity stated so himself! And the only reason it was even possible for Nightmare to attempt this was because it happened after he and Dormammu faced off!
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1783131-drstrange_18218_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1783132-drstrange_18219_super.jpg





He absolutely was NOT more powerful sans his artifacts than with them. That makes no sense. He had no Wand of Watoomb, no Book of the Vishanti, no Eye of Agamotto, no access to light/white magic that is used vs demons.

Hell he had to ask Victoria (Bentley?)for her power to face off vs demons (because he power was exhausted) and this was in that very issue he would face down with Arioch.

Originally posted by zopzop

Up till that Strange arc, he WAS trapped in his dimension and that's why he was trying to break out through the Ancient One.


He was shut out of the prime reality, not all dimensions. Shuma's still barred from the prime reality without being invoked by someone else.



I'm saying that it's funny how you seem to only find plot points relevant in circumstances that don't concern Shuma-Gorath, yet when plot devices are the only things that enable Strange a victory over Shuma you act like they don't exist and make out like Shuma was overcome straight up without plot backing up Strange.



And yet when confronted by Shuma-Gorath the first time he was helpless even when he still had the ability to cast white magic and had to resort to killing the Ancient One in order to survive. He couldn't even defeat Shuma's manifestation in the AO's mind with his own power yet he was able to travel into Shuma's realm once he had infused himself with black magic. Proof enough that he was far stronger at that point.



Don't really see how that's funny. Victoria Bentley had magical potential that made Baron Mordo frightened at the thought of her being able to realize that potential and learn how to use it. He even suggested killing her so she wouldn't be a future threat.

In any case, at the time of confronting Shuma, Strange had been taught various black magics by Kaluu, taken Bentley's power which frightened even Baron Mordo, received Eldritch power from the Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh (who had taken out Strange's eye and defeated he and Kaluu at the same time), and fused with the chaos lord Arioch. Even still, he could only stalemate Shuma until he started to merge with Shuma's very energy after Shuma struck him.

Strange combined with Shuma/Arioch/magic from Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Bentley and Kaluu >>>>>>>>>>> Strange with his regular arsenal of white magic.

Or can Strange bust multiple galaxies with his mere presence at regular levels now?

Originally posted by CortSether
He was shut out of the prime reality, not all dimensions. Shuma's still barred from the prime reality without being invoked by someone else.



I'm saying that it's funny how you seem to only find plot points relevant in circumstances that don't concern Shuma-Gorath, yet when plot devices are the only things that enable Strange a victory over Shuma you act like they don't exist and make out like Shuma was overcome straight up without plot backing up Strange.



And yet when confronted by Shuma-Gorath the first time he was helpless even when he still had the ability to cast white magic and had to resort to killing the Ancient One in order to survive. He couldn't even defeat Shuma's manifestation in the AO's mind with his own power yet he was able to travel into Shuma's realm once he had infused himself with black magic. Proof enough that he was far stronger at that point.



Don't really see how that's funny. Victoria Bentley had magical potential that made Baron Mordo frightened at the thought of her being able to realize that potential and learn how to use it. He even suggested killing her so she wouldn't be a future threat.

In any case, at the time of confronting Shuma, Strange had been taught various black magics by Kaluu, taken Bentley's power which frightened even Baron Mordo, received Eldritch power from the Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh (who had taken out Strange's eye and defeated he and Kaluu at the same time), and fused with the chaos lord Arioch. Even still, he could only stalemate Shuma until he started to merge with Shuma's very energy after Shuma struck him.

Strange combined with Shuma/Arioch/magic from Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Bentley and Kaluu >>>>>>>>>>> Strange with his regular arsenal of white magic.

Or can Strange bust multiple galaxies with his mere presence at regular levels now?

Victoria Bentley was merely Strange's (almost) disciple. She was a nothing. But Strange was so desperate, since he burned himself out, that he needed something, anything to continue the fight vs Gorath's demons. He was nowhere near his full power. This is ridiculous.

When Strange confronted Gorath the first time, he was still the AO's disciple. He hadn't assumed the full mantle of Sorcerer Supreme. That would happen AFTER his mentor's death.

And what plot device? Strange OWNED Gorath's lieutenant AND Gorath himself, in their own realms! Arioch's ownage was literally accomplished in 7 or so panels!

When did Strange ever "bust a galaxy" after he defeated Gorath? That was hyperbole with NOTHING to back it up on panel.

Originally posted by zopzop
Victoria Bentley was merely Strange's (almost) disciple. She was a nothing. But Strange was so desperate, since he burned himself out, that he needed something, anything to continue the fight vs Gorath's demons. He was nowhere near his full power. This is ridiculous.

Continue to ignore facts.

Originally posted by zopzop
And what plot device?

Merging with Gods. He never would have stood a chance against Shuma had he not done so.

Originally posted by zopzop
When did Strange ever "bust a galaxy" after he defeated Gorath? That was hyperbole with NOTHING to back it up on panel.

But there was something to back that up. When Kaluu tried to use his magic to open the way out of the realm a large explosion of energy surrounded Strange. Kaluu saw Strange's energy react with the realm when he tried leading the way out and knew what that would mean had he entered their reality with that energy still on him.

Oh, and there's also that little bit about Strange being able to outright kill Kaluu just by touching him.

Not hyperbole.

Originally posted by zopzop
Bullsh|t, the very reason the demons were free in the first place was because the spells protecting Earth cast by him and other sorcerers through the years weakened because of the loss of his artifacts!

Even the one artifact that wasn't destroyed, the Eye, he felt he was unworthy of wielding so he didn't use it.

He was nowhere near full power.

Once again agreed.

@CortSether: Doctor Strange was nowhere near full power when fighting Shuma-Gorath in the Chaos Dimension. Agamotto held Doctor Strange's artifacts for him so Urthona wouldn't get them. That's why zopzop is saying Shuma-Gorath's loss to Doctor Strange in the Chaos Dimension was so embarrassing. Shuma-Gorath has never defeated Doctor Strange, not once. Other than taking over Nightmares dimension, and the fight with the Vishanti which the outcome is unknown, who has Shuma-Gorath beaten?

What are all of Shuma-Gorath's fights?

@Horrificus: by "official character profile" do you mean the Official Handbooks of the Marvel Universe Power Grids? If that's what your talking about then it's like this. 0 to 7 with 7 being the highest.

Shuma-Gorath

INTELLIGENCE - 3
STRENGTH - 7
SPEED - 2
DURABILITY - 7
ENERGY PROJECTION - 6
FIGHTING SKILLS - 2

Dormammu

INTELLIGENCE - 6
STRENGTH - 7
SPEED - 7
DURABILITY - 7
ENERGY PROJECTION - 7
FIGHTING SKILLS - 4

You know Strange got back to full power before he faces Shuma, and he absorbed the power of his lieutenant Arioch before fighting him - Arioch was easily Skyfather level or higher

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You know Strange got back to full power before he faces Shuma, and he absorbed the power of his lieutenant Arioch before fighting him - Arioch was easily Skyfather level or higher

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/75222/2298505-facepalm__10_.jpg

You know this how? Arioch only had ONE appearance and he was OWNED.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You know Strange got back to full power before he faces Shuma, and he absorbed the power of his lieutenant Arioch before fighting him - Arioch was easily Skyfather level or higher

I definitely wouldn't put Arioch at Skyfather level..... Especially since Doctor Strange defeated him without any of his artifacts in 2 pages. Agamotto had all his artifacts except the Cloak of Levitation. Arioch's claim to "infinite" power is such ridiculous hyperbole. I mean if he had infinite power he wouldn't be Shuma-Gorath's servant.

Either way Doctor Strange absorbing Arioch's power most definitely made him much more powerful but if he had his artifacts like the Eye of Agamotto, Orb of Agamotto, Book of Vishanti, or use of white magic instead of Arioch's power he would've been more powerful. Basically full powered Doctor Strange is greater than his showing vs Shuma-Gorath in the Chaos Dimension.

There are different levels of infinity in Marvel - remember Kubik's explanation about this to Kosmos

Arioch got owned because Strange had a plot device to steal other magicians power. He got owned by his own power.

Its stated he will become simply Shuma Gorath after he defeated him. That's why Strange committed suicide.

Defeating him is win for him unless Dormmammu would rather kill himself everytime.

Originally posted by cpd12589
Once again agreed.

@CortSether: Doctor Strange was nowhere near full power when fighting Shuma-Gorath in the Chaos Dimension. Agamotto held Doctor Strange's artifacts for him so Urthona wouldn't get them. That's why zopzop is saying Shuma-Gorath's loss to Doctor Strange in the Chaos Dimension was so embarrassing. Shuma-Gorath has never defeated Doctor Strange, not once. Other than taking over Nightmares dimension, and the fight with the Vishanti which the outcome is unknown, who has Shuma-Gorath beaten?
What are all of Shuma-Gorath's fights?

Oh gawd...

Strange was far superior to his normal self by the time he merged with Shuma, it's no comparison. It's spelled all over the plot.

By the time Strange had merged with Shuma's energy (which was what enabled Strange to harm and eventually defeat him) he was leaps and bounds greater.

1) His presence would have destroyed galaxies. NOT hyperbole as it is shown on panel that when Kaluu tries to open the path out of the realm using his magic an explosion erupts and consumes the vicinity. It is from this that Kaluu based his statement that Strange would bust galaxies. It's a definitive statement "could and WOULD destroy galaxies" from a master of black magic. Strange was forced to let go of some of his energy before leaving the first plane they were in so he wouldn't destroy the earth just by his arrival.

2) Even after Kaluu and Strange had gone through dimensional planes of existence, which is AFTER Strange first got rid of some of his energy, Kaluu tried striking him only to be dismissively blocked by a swipe of Strange's hand. This harms Kaluu so much that he outright says he'll die if he so much as touches Strange again.

Hell, he surpassed the combined Vishanti by the time he merged with Shuma seeing as how he was able to destroy Shuma temporarily. It's further confirmed that Strange was at a higher level than ever when it is said that not even Agamotto himself had destroyed a lord of chaos.

3) Outcome of Shuma's fight with the Vishanti is known. There was no winner. It's stated quite simply that they fought before and considering in none of their bios or in any panels was it said that one was destroyed by the other, the only logical conclusion to make of it is a stalemate.

Yet you and zop want to argue that Strange with his standard set of spells is superior to the Strange that fought Shuma-Gorath because:

1) Just because
2) He didn't have spells from other (ZOMG FEATLESS!) gods like raggador and watoomb
3) He couldn't use the Eye of Agamotto (as if that would help at all considering Agamotto had already proven to be unable to defeat Shuma)

Yea, there's not a whole lot going for you in trying to prove Strange with his standard spells is superior to Strange merged with, lets see...

1) Shuma-Gorath
2) Arioch
3) Magical energy from Victoria Bentley (whose magic potential was greater than Baron Mordo's)
4) Eldrich energy from the Great Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh
5) Various black magics taught by the master of black magic, Kaluu

So Strange merged with two Gods, magical energy from a Great Old One, magical power from Victoria Bentley, and knowledge of an array of spells taught to him by Kaluu is somehow inferior to Strange with white magic from a god who couldn't even defeat Shuma-Gorath beforehand (Agamotto) and other deities we've seen nothing from?


In any case, it's pointless to debate you about this anymore. You've already got your mind set and considering you have Dormammu as an avatar...

Entertaining thread. Seems as if it takes Shuma to bring CortSether out from KMC hiatus. mmm

Seriously, Doramammu would put up a good fight but it would take something like him merging with himself from another timeline like he did against GOTG to pull off a win. Hell, Sise Neg had to secretly banish Shuma before Shuma could sense his presence. This was after Sise Neg had just about absorbed all the mystical energy in 616.

Originally posted by CortSether
Oh gawd...

Strange was far superior to his normal self by the time he merged with Shuma, it's no comparison. It's spelled all over the plot.

By the time Strange had merged with Shuma's energy (which was what enabled Strange to harm and eventually defeat him) he was leaps and bounds greater.

1) His presence would have destroyed galaxies. NOT hyperbole as it is shown on panel that when Kaluu tries to open the path out of the realm using his magic an explosion erupts and consumes the vicinity. It is from this that Kaluu based his statement that Strange would bust galaxies. It's a definitive statement "could and WOULD destroy galaxies" from a master of black magic. Strange was forced to let go of some of his energy before leaving the first plane they were in so he wouldn't destroy the earth just by his arrival.

2) Even after Kaluu and Strange had gone through dimensional planes of existence, which is AFTER Strange first got rid of some of his energy, Kaluu tried striking him only to be dismissively blocked by a swipe of Strange's hand. This harms Kaluu so much that he outright says he'll die if he so much as touches Strange again.

Hell, he surpassed the combined Vishanti by the time he merged with Shuma seeing as how he was able to destroy Shuma temporarily. It's further confirmed that Strange was at a higher level than ever when it is said that not even Agamotto himself had destroyed a lord of chaos.

3) Outcome of Shuma's fight with the Vishanti is known. There was no winner. It's stated quite simply that they fought before and considering in none of their bios or in any panels was it said that one was destroyed by the other, the only logical conclusion to make of it is a stalemate.

Yet you and zop want to argue that Strange with his standard set of spells is superior to the Strange that fought Shuma-Gorath because:

1) Just because
2) He didn't have spells from other (ZOMG FEATLESS!) gods like raggador and watoomb
3) He couldn't use the Eye of Agamotto (as if that would help at all considering Agamotto had already proven to be unable to defeat Shuma)

Yea, there's not a whole lot going for you in trying to prove Strange with his standard spells is superior to Strange merged with, lets see...

1) Shuma-Gorath
2) Arioch
3) Magical energy from Victoria Bentley (whose magic potential was greater than Baron Mordo's)
4) Eldrich energy from the Great Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh
5) Various black magics taught by the master of black magic, Kaluu

So Strange merged with two Gods, magical energy from a Great Old One, magical power from Victoria Bentley, and knowledge of an array of spells taught to him by Kaluu is somehow inferior to Strange with white magic from a god who couldn't even defeat Shuma-Gorath beforehand (Agamotto) and other deities we've seen nothing from?


In any case, it's pointless to debate you about this anymore. You've already got your mind set and considering you have Dormammu as an avatar...

Because of an avatar..... Come on now....

I'm not saying it's not possible that Shuma > than Dormammu. Just that with what has been seen of Shuma-Gorath it certainly isn't looking good for him.

Also the outcome of the battle between Shuma-Gorath and the Vishanti isn't known. LOL You talk about it like it's fact. All that is established by what the Vishanti said about Shuma-Gorath is that 1 - he is very powerful and 2 - they fought at one point in time.

That's like saying that the Miami Heat have won a championship because the Dallas Mavericks don't want to play them because they have 3 of the best players in the NBA. When in actuality the Mavericks beat the Heat in the finals and the Heat haven't won shit.

I mean even though Doctor Strange temporarily destroyed Shuma-Gorath he still doesn't want to go mess with him.

Originally posted by CortSether
Oh gawd...

Strange was far superior to his normal self by the time he merged with Shuma, it's no comparison. It's spelled all over the plot.

By the time Strange had merged with Shuma's energy (which was what enabled Strange to harm and eventually defeat him) he was leaps and bounds greater.

1) His presence would have destroyed galaxies. NOT hyperbole as it is shown on panel that when Kaluu tries to open the path out of the realm using his magic an explosion erupts and consumes the vicinity. It is from this that Kaluu based his statement that Strange would bust galaxies. It's a definitive statement "could and WOULD destroy galaxies" from a master of black magic. Strange was forced to let go of some of his energy before leaving the first plane they were in so he wouldn't destroy the earth just by his arrival.

2) Even after Kaluu and Strange had gone through dimensional planes of existence, which is AFTER Strange first got rid of some of his energy, Kaluu tried striking him only to be dismissively blocked by a swipe of Strange's hand. This harms Kaluu so much that he outright says he'll die if he so much as touches Strange again.

Hell, he surpassed the combined Vishanti by the time he merged with Shuma seeing as how he was able to destroy Shuma temporarily. It's further confirmed that Strange was at a higher level than ever when it is said that not even Agamotto himself had destroyed a lord of chaos.

3) Outcome of Shuma's fight with the Vishanti is known. There was no winner. It's stated quite simply that they fought before and considering in none of their bios or in any panels was it said that one was destroyed by the other, the only logical conclusion to make of it is a stalemate.

Yet you and zop want to argue that Strange with his standard set of spells is superior to the Strange that fought Shuma-Gorath because:

1) Just because
2) He didn't have spells from other (ZOMG FEATLESS!) gods like raggador and watoomb
3) He couldn't use the Eye of Agamotto (as if that would help at all considering Agamotto had already proven to be unable to defeat Shuma)

Yea, there's not a whole lot going for you in trying to prove Strange with his standard spells is superior to Strange merged with, lets see...

1) Shuma-Gorath
2) Arioch
3) Magical energy from Victoria Bentley (whose magic potential was greater than Baron Mordo's)
4) Eldrich energy from the Great Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh
5) Various black magics taught by the master of black magic, Kaluu

So Strange merged with two Gods, magical energy from a Great Old One, magical power from Victoria Bentley, and knowledge of an array of spells taught to him by Kaluu is somehow inferior to Strange with white magic from a god who couldn't even defeat Shuma-Gorath beforehand (Agamotto) and other deities we've seen nothing from?


In any case, it's pointless to debate you about this anymore. You've already got your mind set and considering you have Dormammu as an avatar...

Because of an avatar..... Come on now....

I'm not saying it's not possible that Shuma > than Dormammu. Just that with what has been seen of Shuma-Gorath it certainly isn't looking good for him.

Also the outcome of the battle between Shuma-Gorath and the Vishanti isn't known. LOL You talk about it like it's fact. All that is established by what the Vishanti said about Shuma-Gorath is that 1 - he is very powerful and 2 - they fought at one point in time.

That's like saying that the Miami Heat have won a championship because the Dallas Mavericks don't want to play them because they have 3 of the best players in the NBA. When in actuality the Mavericks beat the Heat in the finals and the Heat haven't won shit.

I mean even though Doctor Strange temporarily destroyed Shuma-Gorath he still doesn't want to go mess with him. So like I said what the Vishanti said about Gorath tells nothing about what happened or what could've happened.