Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

This is a three team battle royal. Teams of two fight
At the area where Sasuke faught Itachi.

Itachi
Sasuke

Vs

Killer Bee
A

Vs

Naruto
Minato

All teams recieve Five minutes to prepare without
Outside help. In this match assume this is
Pre-EMS Sasuke as he does not have any feats, so
Let's not assume. Who wins?

Hm, this is a tough one... Naruto obviously sages-up with his 5 minutes, but in a battle like this he might run out and have to go with his less-well-mastered fox mode.

The Uchiha bros have the best genjutsu and some nasty insta-kill abilities. The A & B bros have combo attacks and the best all-around physical stats, as well as Bee being immune to tsukiyomi. Naruto and Minato are the most uneven, but Minato's also probably the best single combatant on the board and I think they're the trickiest pair.

Tough call...

I see Minato dealing with Bee, the "biggest" threat on the battlefield next to him. A I think could take Sage Naruto but not complete Susano'o Sasuke or Itachi.

Gonna go with team Uchiha. Haxxed weapons and attacks. Minato is the strongest by himself though. He just can't beat both Uchiha.

The Uchiha do have some edge... but they can be outlasted by the greater endurance of their opponents. The clock's ticking the moment they're forced to activate Susano'o, especially with Itachi, and both opposing teams have more readily usable big blasty jutsu that would be hard to stop without it (biju ball, rasenshuriken).

Especially in a three way melee, that's likely to be a concern, the other teams might gang up on them.

Raikage and Bee see Konoha's Yellow Flash and decide he is their biggest threat. Minato sees Bee and acknowledges him as the biggest threat. Naruto is gonna go for the Uchiha first, likely Sasuke, but that will just get him killed/genjutsued by Itachi. :O

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Raikage and Bee see Konoha's Yellow Flash and decide he is their biggest threat. Minato sees Bee and acknowledges him as the biggest threat. Naruto is gonna go for the Uchiha first, likely Sasuke, but that will just get him killed/genjutsued by Itachi. :O

True, one way it could go Though Naruto knows better than to not use teamwork. Every team should work together.

Hm, I suppose the ideal thing for each team would be to try and trick the other two into fighting.

honestly, i dunno. arguments can be made for each team. Though, the Alphabet boys have already proven that they can beat Sasuke in individual matches.

lol Itachi activates the chakra he placed in Naruto and makes him explode. awesome

That said, bare basic teamwork goes to AB. Familiar with each others strength and weaknesses.

That said, A, Bee, and Naruto are all hot headed and charge in a lot. Sasuke and Itachi are the most composed team, Sasuke's insanity aside.

A & Bee have the most experience working together, and no weak links (which, relative to the others, Sasuke and Naruto still are).

Define weak link. I do consider Naruto the weakest of the group but Sasuke with full Susano'o might be a bit much for A.

Minato
Itachi
Bee
Sasuke
A
Naruto

That's how I'm ranking them. Also, I think the environment suits the Uchiha team more. They are fighting on Uchiha turf after all.

I honestly think they all just kill each other in a bloody tie.

Minato's going to be held up by either Itachi or A leaving Naruto at the mercy of Bee ans Sasuke. Both should have enough knowledge of how the fox work to know that they have to go for a quick win before he gets worked up.

Itachi would then have to jugggle saving his brother from either Bee or A all the while trying to not get killed by Minato. If Sasuke starts using the full Sussano', then all Bee has to do is go into the full 8 tail form and use a Menacing Ball. Sasuke doesn't have the Yata Mirror and Danzo blew a hole in the back of it(Sasuke's) with a summon.

Itachi or Minato would probably take out A however there's still the 8 tailed Bee to worry about. Itachi's Sussano might be able to block Menacing balls and Minato can just redirect them. Maybe the sword or the shinigami seal might just take apart the hachibi leaving Bee kind of dead. At this point, it's a toss up.

I can venture a guess as to how the Uchiha plan to deal with the Hachibi.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Define weak link. I do consider Naruto the weakest of the group but Sasuke with full Susano'o might be a bit much for A.

Minato
Itachi
Bee
Sasuke
A
Naruto

That's how I'm ranking them. Also, I think the environment suits the Uchiha team more. They are fighting on Uchiha turf after all.

I'd rate A higher than Sasuke. Not only was he winning, but keep in mind Sasuke's backup helped against A too (Darui and C were there, but mostly didn't do much to Sasuke and ended up fighting Suigetsu and staying back in support, while Jugo directly engaged A).

Originally posted by Q99
I'd rate A higher than Sasuke. Not only was he winning, but keep in mind Sasuke's backup helped against A too (Darui and C were there, but mostly didn't do much to Sasuke and ended up fighting Suigetsu and staying back in support, while Jugo directly engaged A).

Well, A was fighting against a far weaker and incomplete Susano'o. And the argument about the backup goes more against A. Darui hit Sasuke with a water technique and C tried to use genjutsu on him. Sasuke had to expend chakra to genjutsu C. Jugo and Suigetsu, by blocking, may have directly engaged A but they really didn't *do* anything to him except make him use chakra in order to deal with them.

Sasuke blocked the water jutsu and the genjutsu wasn't taken advantage of due to Suigetsu and Jugo. Jugo did try his big blast but yea, looking it over that was just dodged.

Also, the only real problem A had with Susano'o was when it was also covered with amaterasu, Sasuke wasn't really hitting him with anything, and susano'o-plus-amaterasu is a major chakra hog even with impartial susano'o.

With Bee to provide more long-range, A wouldn't have to take as risky moves and could let Sasuke's endurance run out.

I saw Sasuke block the lightning jutsu but not the water one.

A major chakra hog that Sasuke has be shown using quite a few times actually. A was also on fairly even speed terms with Sasuke until he leveled up of course. And by the time that Sasuke needs to use Susano'o, A would be close up trying to engage him in manly fist fights.

That said, I put money on Minato killing A. Giving the matter considerable thought, if I were A, I'd go after the ****er that cost me my arm. Bee would likely as well, that or he'd fight Naruto to get a weak link out of the picture. Minato is the hardest to determine by motives. Bee is a bigger threat but Naruto would likely go after Sasuke and by extension get in A's way. I'd see him jumping into the fray if only to save his kid before he gets himself killed.

Is this battle inside or out? Outside and I can safely put my money on Uchiha team. Inside might give it to team stereotype.

Edit: Ah wait. I see. This is the area after the temple was destroyed. In that case, Uchiha has a large advantage and so does Minato. So gonna go with Team Uchiha at the moment.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I saw Sasuke block the lightning jutsu but not the water one.

A major chakra hog that Sasuke has be shown using quite a few times actually. A was also on fairly even speed terms with Sasuke until he leveled up of course. And by the time that Sasuke needs to use Susano'o, A would be close up trying to engage him in manly fist fights.

That said, I put money on Minato killing A. Giving the matter considerable thought, if I were A, I'd go after the ****er that cost me my arm. Bee would likely as well, that or he'd fight Naruto to get a weak link out of the picture. Minato is the hardest to determine by motives. Bee is a bigger threat but Naruto would likely go after Sasuke and by extension get in A's way. I'd see him jumping into the fray if only to save his kid before he gets himself killed.

Is this battle inside or out? Outside and I can safely put my money on Uchiha team. Inside might give it to team stereotype.

Minato's more that a match for both Uchiha's IMO. I think Danzo got around Sasuke's full Sussano with just his summonig creature or whatnot. Plus neither have hax space-time jutsu like Madara although I'm not sure how teleporting would work around the Yata Mirror.

Even if the Uchiha win, Itachi would probably be the last man standing. I see Sasuke dying almost immediately after Naruto honestly. Then there's the whole Menacing Ball threat that everyone other that A has to worry about.

So I think that no individual team wins this.

The fundamental problem with this thread is it's a 2vs2vs2 deal. Going by character motivations we can guess what they'd likely do but we can't be too sure. I assume A and Naruto would head straight at Sasuke but I'm not sure. Bee could use that time to power up while Minato respectfully uses it to try and save Naruto. Itachi, if need be, can always swoop in to save Sasuke.

Sasuke has an advantage no one else does: Flight. He can fly around all day and be out of range except for Bee, who'd have to go version 2 at least in order to hit Sasuke. And when he does that, it will be a race between Minato and Itachi to see who can kill him first while A kills Naruto for being in the way. Itachi and Minato both have answers to Menacing Ball so I can't see Bee being that deadly a threat.

Sasuke also has another advantage: A forest he can set on fire whenever. Burn it, burn it all! And use Kirin on A while he's at it. Then two against one while Minato has no genjutsu showings that I can recall.

Minato only has to throw a kunai, and Naruto has range too. Plus, Gamabunta has enough jump that flight tends to effectively be in range.

Flight's good, but it also limits him to only a few ranged attacks. The bird's overall pretty vulnerable I'd say.

Originally posted by McNasty996
This is a three team battle royal. Teams of two fight
At the area where Sasuke faught Itachi.

Itachi
Sasuke

Vs

Killer Bee
A

Vs

Naruto
Minato

All teams recieve Five minutes to prepare without
Outside help. In this match assume this is
Pre-EMS Sasuke as he does not have any feats, so
Let's not assume. Who wins?

5 minutes of prep? Naruto uses that to set up Sage Mode, while I cannot see what A & B would do with that time. Minato could prolly toss his Kunais around the area to set up Hiraishin. srug

Itachi and Sasuke could work to set up Kirin. Itachi and Sasuke set fire to the surrounding forest with Amaterasu or regular Katons; Sasuke then sends Fire Dragons into the upper atmosphere. At the start of the match, Sasuke sends Kirin towards either group (preferably A & B), while Itachi tries to hit the other group with the Sword of Totsuka or Amaterasu.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The fundamental problem with this thread is it's a 2vs2vs2 deal. Going by character motivations we can guess what they'd likely do but we can't be too sure. I assume A and Naruto would head straight at Sasuke but I'm not sure. Bee could use that time to power up while Minato respectfully uses it to try and save Naruto. Itachi, if need be, can always swoop in to save Sasuke.

Sasuke has an advantage no one else does: Flight. He can fly around all day and be out of range except for Bee, who'd have to go version 2 at least in order to hit Sasuke. And when he does that, it will be a race between Minato and Itachi to see who can kill him first while A kills Naruto for being in the way. Itachi and Minato both have answers to Menacing Ball so I can't see Bee being that deadly a threat.

Sasuke also has another advantage: A forest he can set on fire whenever. Burn it, burn it all! And use Kirin on A while he's at it. Then two against one while Minato has no genjutsu showings that I can recall.

With that sort of thing taken into account, I'm guessing A would charge towards Sasuke, albeit much less bloodlusted. Naruto is friends with B, so technically the Cloud Bros and the Blondies could try to double team the Uchihas from the start.

If they're all bloodlusted, then it gets easier.

With the two fastest characters in the series opposing them, the Uchiha brothers could also have trouble landing regular attacks.

Would also be interesting to see how A and Minato match up. A has far superior reactions when he has his Raiton armor up, but Minato has Hiraishin.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, the only real problem A had with Susano'o was when it was also covered with amaterasu, Sasuke wasn't really hitting him with anything, and susano'o-plus-amaterasu is a major chakra hog even with impartial susano'o.

With Bee to provide more long-range, A wouldn't have to take as risky moves and could let Sasuke's endurance run out.

B only has range when he enters Hachibi mode, which is a sitting duck for Rasenshuriken or Amaterasu. They both need to get in close to deal damage.

Also, Sasuke's Complete Susano'o is different from the Partial one that A faced. It is likely more durable, and it has a ranged attack. Minato's the only one I see avoiding it outright thanks to Hiraishin, while A could prolly avoid it if he amps his Raiton Shroud.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix Originally posted by McNasty996
This is a three team battle royal. Teams of two fight
At the area where Sasuke faught Itachi.

Itachi
Sasuke

Vs

Killer Bee
A

Vs

Naruto
Minato

All teams recieve Five minutes to prepare without
Outside help. In this match assume this is
Pre-EMS Sasuke as he does not have any feats, so
Let's not assume. Who wins?
5 minutes of prep? Naruto uses that to set up Sage Mode, while I cannot see what A & B would do with that time. Minato could prolly toss his Kunais around the area to set up Hiraishin. srug

Itachi and Sasuke could work to set up Kirin. Itachi and Sasuke set fire to the surrounding forest with Amaterasu or regular Katons; Sasuke then sends Fire Dragons into the upper atmosphere. At the start of the match, Sasuke sends Kirin towards either group (preferably A & B), while Itachi tries to hit the other group with the Sword of Totsuka or Amaterasu.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The fundamental problem with this thread is it's a 2vs2vs2 deal. Going by character motivations we can guess what they'd likely do but we can't be too sure. I assume A and Naruto would head straight at Sasuke but I'm not sure. Bee could use that time to power up while Minato respectfully uses it to try and save Naruto. Itachi, if need be, can always swoop in to save Sasuke.

Sasuke has an advantage no one else does: Flight. He can fly around all day and be out of range except for Bee, who'd have to go version 2 at least in order to hit Sasuke. And when he does that, it will be a race between Minato and Itachi to see who can kill him first while A kills Naruto for being in the way. Itachi and Minato both have answers to Menacing Ball so I can't see Bee being that deadly a threat.

Sasuke also has another advantage: A forest he can set on fire whenever. Burn it, burn it all! And use Kirin on A while he's at it. Then two against one while Minato has no genjutsu showings that I can recall.

With that sort of thing taken into account, I'm guessing A would charge towards Sasuke, albeit much less bloodlusted. Naruto is friends with B, so technically the Cloud Bros and the Blondies could try to double team the Uchihas from the start.

If they're all bloodlusted, then it gets easier.

With the two fastest characters in the series opposing them, the Uchiha brothers could also have trouble landing regular attacks.

Would also be interesting to see how A and Minato match up. A has far superior reactions when he has his Raiton armor up, but Minato has Hiraishin.

Damn, triple post. But I don't want my first post to be buried.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
B only has range when he enters Hachibi mode, which is a sitting duck for Rasenshuriken or Amaterasu. They both need to get in close to deal damage.

Don't forget he can lightning-cover projectiles.



Danzo did pierce it's rear with amp vacuum blades, though.

Originally posted by Q99
Don't forget he can lightning-cover projectiles.

He doesn't use that very often though.

Originally posted by Q99
Danzo did pierce it's rear with amp vacuum blades, though.

Wind is supposed to have a greater cutting power than Lightning.
Plus the damage recovered near-immediately, and we don't know if the Raikage could do what Danzou did, but with a chop. I doubt he could do it with a penetrative type attack like a straight punch.

Also, it's hard to say how he'd fare in this sort of a fight. Both Naruto and the Uchiha bros have techs to put him down. Naruto has Rasenshuriken, while Amaterasu bypasses the Raiton Armor. It's arguable that regular Katons would do so as well.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He doesn't use that very often though.


We've yet to see him fight a ranged foe much.






Hitting seems to be the big issue.

Wait! If there's 5 minutes of prep in this match up, wouldn't Bee already be in his hachibi form? That means, Sasuke and Naruto would probably need to be saved by one of Bee's Menacing Balls which could give A an opening.

Then you have Minato who can pretty much tag the whole enviroment they're in with kunais

Other then plan a strategy and hopefully tank Bee's attacks with Sussano, the Uchiha can't do anything prep wise in this battle.

Originally posted by Q99
Minato only has to throw a kunai, and Naruto has range too. Plus, Gamabunta has enough jump that flight tends to effectively be in range.

Flight's good, but it also limits him to only a few ranged attacks. The bird's overall pretty vulnerable I'd say.

I see Minato having a bit of trouble of getting a hit on Sasuke. Naruto also has decidedly limited range. And I do not see him readily summoning Gamabunta. He never does.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
With that sort of thing taken into account, I'm guessing A would charge towards Sasuke, albeit much less bloodlusted. Naruto is friends with B, so technically the Cloud Bros and the Blondies could try to double team the Uchihas from the start.

If they're all bloodlusted, then it gets easier.

With the two fastest characters in the series opposing them, the Uchiha brothers could also have trouble landing regular attacks.

Would also be interesting to see how A and Minato match up. A has far superior reactions when he has his Raiton armor up, but Minato has Hiraishin.

Since this is pre-EMS Sasuke it should be Prefriendship for Naruto and Bee. >_>

That said, if they teamed up on them the Uchiha would eventually use.

A nice team move would be for Minato to put Naruto in a position to use RS on A.

That is if Minato decides not to attack Bee.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I see Minato having a bit of trouble of getting a hit on Sasuke. Naruto also has decidedly limited range. And I do not see him readily summoning Gamabunta. He never does.

Minato has Gamabunta too, and he's generally not known for having trouble getting a hit on anyone.... he can throw a kunai, miss, and as long as it's vaguely close, appear from that kunai and attack from much closer range.

He can also do stuff like redirect Kirin back at a different target.

Originally posted by Q99
Minato has Gamabunta too, and he's generally not known for having trouble getting a hit on anyone.... he can throw a kunai, miss, and as long as it's vaguely close, appear from that kunai and attack from much closer range.

He can also do stuff like redirect Kirin back at a different target.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I can venture a guess as to how the Uchiha plan to deal with Gamabunta.

We've never seen Minato engage in a fight with a flying opponent. We don't know if he could get a close attack near him.

I would think that the target would need to have a tag on them to redirect the attack at them.

Or a tag near them. He's totally going to scatter tags all over the place

Also, he does not have lightning timing reactions. As far as I know.

And you should know what I'm laughing at.

Originally posted by Q99
We've yet to see him fight a ranged foe much.

Or he likely doesn't use mid-long range attacks. He doesn't seem to carry shurikens or kunais. Most aren't very effective against ranged foes anyway, and would likely serve no purpose other than to move an opponent to a certain position.
He could toss his swords though.

Originally posted by Q99
Hitting seems to be the big issue.

True enough, but with attacks coming in from 3 other fronts, it would be easier for them. Rasenshuriken also has the expansion factor, which could catch A off-guard.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I see Minato having a bit of trouble of getting a hit on Sasuke. Naruto also has decidedly limited range. And I do not see him readily summoning Gamabunta. He never does.

Since this is pre-EMS Sasuke it should be Prefriendship for Naruto and Bee. >_>

That said, if they teamed up on them the Uchiha would eventually use.

A nice team move would be for Minato to put Naruto in a position to use RS on A.

That is if Minato decides not to attack Bee.

Minato would summon him if he needed him. Which would be the case if Hachibi appeared. Of course, Hachibi can always be taken care of by Amaterasu or Rasenshuriken.

Someone mentioned Naruto using his Kyuubi Chakra form. srug Can't recall if it was the TC though.

Susano'o?

Yeah. Though I don't think Minato would be able to port Naruto once Rasenshuriken is out.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Wait! If there's 5 minutes of prep in this match up, wouldn't Bee already be in his hachibi form? That means, Sasuke and Naruto would probably need to be saved by one of Bee's Menacing Balls which could give A an opening.

Then you have Minato who can pretty much tag the whole enviroment they're in with kunais

Other then plan a strategy and hopefully tank Bee's attacks with Sussano, the Uchiha can't do anything prep wise in this battle.

If Bee's already in his Hachibi form, then Amaterasu, Rasenshuriken or the Sword of Totsuka would do him in, never mind Kirin. Minato could likely even seal him.
For defense, Naruto and Minato have Minato's Space-Time Barrier, while the Uchihas have the Yata Shield. Even Regular Susano'o might work, as Suigetsu was able to survive the attack while protecting the others.

Building up Kirin is one of the things the Uchiha can do, and it is likely their easiest ticket to victory.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Also, he does not have lightning timing reactions. As far as I know.


Kirin isn't as fast as Real World Lightning though. Naruto-verse Lightning is merely hundreds of times faster than Sound, according to Zetsu at least; compared to RW Lightning that can reach speeds around a third to two thirds the speed of Light.

But yeah, I seriously doubt Minato can redirect the attack if he's standing still when the attack is launched. He might be able to dodge the actual attack with Hiraishin (seeing as Itachi had enough time to summon Susano'o after Kirin was launched...both abilities seem to have instantaneous activation), but Kirin's AoE is huge.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Minato would summon him if he needed him. Which would be the case if Hachibi appeared. Of course, Hachibi can always be taken care of by Amaterasu or Rasenshuriken.

Someone mentioned Naruto using his Kyuubi Chakra form. srug Can't recall if it was the TC though.

Susano'o?

Yeah. Though I don't think Minato would be able to port Naruto once Rasenshuriken is out.

I actually don't know if Rasenshuriken would kill the Hachibi. :O

That was QT.

Yes! They will use Susano'o! And I certainly did not type a sentence while groggy from lack of sleep if that's what you think!

Could try it the old fashion style and use it from close range.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I actually don't know if Rasenshuriken would kill the Hachibi. :O

That was QT.

Yes! They will use Susano'o! And I certainly did not type a sentence while groggy from lack of sleep if that's what you think!

Could try it the old fashion style and use it from close range.

It'll certainly hurt him at the least. Sasuke's Chidori spear could cut through its tail like butter.

Ahh. So either Kyuubi Chakra mode is out, or the Uchiha bros are double-teamed.

Yeah, and once Susano'o comes out, it's OVAR! Groggy from sleep is better than being drunk and typing like SC is prone to.

Perhaps. Nahh, A will just lariat that shit away awesome
Oh yeah I forgot, A & B double Lariat the blondies for insta-pwn.

Kirin takes time to activate the jutsu, giving Minato time to set up his space-time warp.

He can probably figure out what's happening when Sasuke's setting up Kirin, but if he doesn't make the seals during the build-up, he isn't making the seals during the actual attack. His only option would be Hiraishin, but Kirin's AoE is quite large.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It'll certainly hurt him at the least. Sasuke's Chidori spear could cut through its tail like butter.

Ahh. So either Kyuubi Chakra mode is out, or the Uchiha bros are double-teamed.

Yeah, and once Susano'o comes out, it's OVAR! Groggy from sleep is better than being drunk and typing like SC is prone to.

Perhaps. Nahh, A will just lariat that shit away awesome
Oh yeah I forgot, A & B double Lariat the blondies for insta-pwn.

Yeah but a much smaller target like Kakuzu was not insta-killed by it.

Well the former seems more fair.

Indeed. I am one step above him in that regard. Still needs him for maths though. >_>

Would be cool but Minato is fast sheet. I don't think that they could nail him with it.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Yeah but a much smaller target like Kakuzu was not insta-killed by it.

Well the former seems more fair.

Indeed. I am one step above him in that regard. Still needs him for maths though. >_>

Would be cool but Minato is fast sheet. I don't think that they could nail him with it.

That seemed like a weaker version of Rasenshuriken in all honesty. Kakuzu's pretty durable to boot.
The Human path got disintegrated when it was hit by the Sage Rasenshuriken, and it can expand. Sage Chakra is also known to make ninjutsu stronger.

Meh, doesn't matter either way. The Sword of Totsuka lit with Amaterasu combo will get 'em all. peaches

I do me own maths, and I don't drink or get groggy from sleep, and then type, so I am steps above you both dur313

Then they DL Naruto, and while Minato is in shock at seeing Naruto getting pwned so easily, he gets DL'd as well

Just a question. What tech do you think Sasuke was going to use here? http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-309-page-15.html

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That seemed like a weaker version of Rasenshuriken in all honesty. Kakuzu's pretty durable to boot.
The Human path got disintegrated when it was hit by the Sage Rasenshuriken, and it can expand. Sage Chakra is also known to make ninjutsu stronger.

Meh, doesn't matter either way. The Sword of Totsuka lit with Amaterasu combo will get 'em all. peaches

I do me own maths, and I don't drink or get groggy from sleep, and then type, so I am steps above you both dur313

Then they DL Naruto, and while Minato is in shock at seeing Naruto getting pwned so easily, he gets DL'd as well

Just a question. What tech do you think Sasuke was going to use here? http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-309-page-15.html

Still, he is a far smaller target. As is Human Path who I don't think was completely disintegrated.

Was actually thinking the Amaterasu arrows would be cooler.

But you are not as lovably charming as I. :O

And then Uchiha win? :P

I have wondered that for a while. And I can't be sure. I suppose it will remain a mystery. Like this.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Still, he is a far smaller target. As is Human Path who I don't think was completely disintegrated.

Was actually thinking the Amaterasu arrows would be cooler.

But you are not as lovably charming as I. :O

And then Uchiha win? :P

I have wondered that for a while. And I can't be sure. I suppose it will remain a mystery. Like this.

Killer Bee has some form of regen that might let him tank at least one Rasenshuriken. Plus they can sort of be dodged as well.

Uh....why would any of the Sussano weapons need Amateratsu? They're practically one-shot attacks already.

Nobody wins....although my vote goes to Minato because "bad parenting=win" in this series

Pfft Minato's bad parenting is nothing compared to Itachi's brotherly love. 313

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Still, he is a far smaller target. As is Human Path who I don't think was completely disintegrated.

Was actually thinking the Amaterasu arrows would be cooler.

But you are not as lovably charming as I. :O

And then Uchiha win? :P

I have wondered that for a while. And I can't be sure. I suppose it will remain a mystery. Like this.

Only Human Path's head was left after the attack.

Or perhaps the Sword of Totsuka coated with Amaterasu and then shot as an arrow? awesome

Yeah, I'm not as charming as you are, in a lovable way at least (by lovable I mean Care bear lovable ). But I am far more debonair.

Naturally. Susano'o >>> DL.

Hehe, Sasuke can make craters just by getting out of bed.
Some people think he was going to use Kirin against Team 7. dur

Also, nothing to say on the Lightning thing?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Killer Bee has some form of regen that might let him tank at least one Rasenshuriken. Plus they can sort of be dodged as well.

Uh....why would any of the Sussano weapons need Amateratsu? They're practically one-shot attacks already.

Nobody wins....although my vote goes to Minato because "bad parenting=win" in this series

Dodged by a 100+ meter sized beast? Perhaps if they are shot from really far away. From 20 or so meters away, I think they would be nearly impossible for the Hachibi to side-step, never mind 2-3 or so meters away like how Naruto used it against the Kyuubi.

For overkill, coz that's what Uchiha Men do.

What Aura said.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Only Human Path's head was left after the attack.

Or perhaps the Sword of Totsuka coated with Amaterasu and then shot as an arrow? awesome

Yeah, I'm not as charming as you are, in a lovable way at least (by lovable I mean Care bear lovable ). But I am far more debonair.

Naturally. Susano'o >>> DL.

Hehe, Sasuke can make craters just by getting out of bed.
Some people think he was going to use Kirin against Team 7. dur

Also, nothing to say on the Lightning thing?

What Aura said.

I know, which leads me to assume the Hachibi will survive just fine.

I approve.

Yeah, I'm not too suave. See "QT" nickname for obvious reasons.

Indeed. It's not a horrible assumption perse but it is flawed by what was seen later on.

Nope.

Itachi, despite having the best intentions, really did create a horribly deranged mother ducker who would just as soon as kill you as look at you. Literally. haermm

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Pfft Minato's bad parenting is nothing compared to Itachi's brotherly love. 313

The guy killed himself for nothing and left a transexual Uzumaki son for Konoha to deal will. That's worse than any self-clan genocide IMO?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
The guy killed himself for nothing and left a transexual Uzumaki son for Konoha to deal will. That's worse than any self-clan genocide IMO?

Itachi massacred everyone he loved except his little brother. While seemingly loving, it falls flat when you realize Itachi mentally tortured his younger brother, taught him such wonderful lessons like "Hatred is power" and "Kill people for more powerful!" while breaking his arm and screwing him up mentally. Let's not forget putting him through a genjutsu of getting his eye plucked out. There is a fine line between making something believable and just out right handing your brother over to the bad side.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Itachi massacred everyone he loved except his little brother. While seemingly loving, it falls flat when you realize Itachi mentally tortured his younger brother, taught him such wonderful lessons like "Hatred is power" and "Kill people for more powerful!" while breaking his arm and screwing him up mentally. Let's not forget putting him through a genjutsu of getting his eye plucked out. There is a fine line between making something believable and just out right handing your brother over to the bad side.

I interpreted that information differently. Itachi took the time out to raise his brother into the power, mentally unstable Uchiha that he is today. He'd still be on Kakashi's level or maybe even below it had he decided to live all peaceful and stuff. Granted that he did massacre his clan and, as you said, handed his brother over to the dark side; but it was all out of love.

Minato on the other hand pretty much say "**** you Konoha" when Kushina died and put a cursed animal inside of his son. On top of that, the fact that he spawned Naruto is a "crime against humanity".

And what Minato did was out of love too in the sense that he recognized that his son would need power to defeat Madara.

That and Minato did the one thing Itachi didn't: Apologize.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And what Minato did was out of love too in the sense that he recognized that his son would need power to defeat Madara.

That and Minato did the one thing Itachi didn't: Apologize.

Dumping your problems on your children is awesome right. I assuming there was some way to contain the kyuubi so that it could be put in Kushina other than damning someone to the Shinigami's stomach, so Minato is still on the poor side of the argument.

I'll conede to this point. Did I mention that he spawned Naruto?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Dumping your problems on your children is awesome right. I assuming there was some way to contain the kyuubi so that it could be put in Kushina other than damning someone to the Shinigami's stomach, so Minato is still on the poor side of the argument.

I'll conede to this point. Did I mention that he spawned Naruto?

Not his problems. He couldn't beat Madara, his son was the chosen one, so inevitable fate is inevitable.

And Itachi spawned Taka Sasuke.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not his problems. He couldn't beat Madara, his son was the chosen one, so inevitable fate is inevitable.

And Itachi spawned Taka Sasuke.

Soo...in order to help his son fulfil a prophecy told to him by a giant toad, he dies putting a demonic animal inside him that's been control by the person he couldn't beat twice? Okay!

Naruto causes the following side effects to anyone in contact with him for long periods of time: irrelevance to the plot, sudden drop in IQ levels, spontaneously becoming lame, dying undignified deaths...

Better than condemning your 8 year old brother to a living hell while you proceed to torture him every time you see him, slowly turning him into an inevitable psycho that will destroy the world.

Taka Sasuke tops that by not being Hebi Sasuke. And helping to start a war.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Better than condemning your 8 year old brother to a living hell while you proceed to torture him every time you see him, slowly turning him into an inevitable psycho that will destroy the world.

Taka Sasuke tops that by not being Hebi Sasuke. And helping to start a war.

Sasuke sort of got over it..up until Orochimaru showed up. Then he started to become a psycho path that will destroy the world. Plus, he's putting the people that had to deal with Naruto out of their misery.

Naruto tops that by....being Naruto! At least Taka Sasuke gets beat up and has magical eyeballs...and makes it funny to watch. More entertaining than talk-no-jutsu, PIS, and transexuality.

Sasuke sorta go over until Itachi broke his arm.

Getting beaten up is not entertaining. I have not seen a transsexual behavior from Naruto in a while. As far as talking goes he kinda doesn't have anyone to fight.

Has the consensus changed?

Uchiha would still win in my book,

After recent events, it's easy to assume that the Naruto family would win.

While Minato seems to be able to hold on his own against both A and B, with current Naruto they would do it.

As Naruto family vs Sasuke and Itachi, until now Naruto>Sasuke. And Minato is like the perfect counter for Itachi, he is not only faster, as he probably has higher fighting intellect and the perfect counter for his Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi in his Hirashin (just like A dodged the Amaterasu, Minato would do the same, and instant teleport means the genjutsu would break anyway). As for Susanoo, Itachi can't keep it on forever and Minato just has to wait and dodge the bullets if he doesn't want to break it (if he has wind affinity, he could probably do it anyway).

Uchiha of course.

Itachi > Minato > Bee > Sasuke > Naruto > A

Ergo, Uchiha win.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Itachi > Minato > Bee > Sasuke > Naruto > A

Ergo, Uchiha win.

Eh...I personally think the first 3 could go any way. Itachi has advantages over Bee, Bee has advantages over Minato, and Minato has advantages over Itachi. In my opinion anyway.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Eh...I personally think the first 3 could go any way. Itachi has advantages over Bee, Bee has advantages over Minato, and Minato has advantages over Itachi. In my opinion anyway.

But in the overall scheme of things, you agree that Itachi > Minato > Bee, right? Otherwise, I reject your opinion completely.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
But in the overall scheme of things, you agree that Itachi > Minato > Bee, right? Otherwise, I reject your opinion completely.

Nah. Out of all of them, Minato is the one I like most. He'll still lose though because Itachi and Sasuke would be too much.

Wouldn't Uchia be the most likely to lose thought because of Sasuke's former experience with A,B, and Naruto; A and Naruto of which would most likely go after him initially and forcing Itachi t intervene lest he be left without a partner which could spell defeat.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah. Out of all of them, Minato is the one I like most. He'll still lose though because Itachi and Sasuke would be too much.

Ahh, so it's clear bias is playing into this, and not cold hard logic.

Yeah, two Susano'o's would be far too much for Minato. Bee is really the only one with the power to get through Susano'o. Naruto needs Rasenshuriken, but he favours Kyuubi chakra mode.
On the other hand, if Minato tags one of them, he should be able to take them out even if they have Susano'o out (assuming it's not the Rib-Cage version that Sasuke uses).

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Ahh, so it's clear bias is playing into this, and not cold hard logic.

Yeah, two Susano'o's would be far too much for Minato. Bee is really the only one with the power to get through Susano'o. Naruto needs Rasenshuriken, but he favours Kyuubi chakra mode.
On the other hand, if Minato tags one of them, he should be able to take them out even if they have Susano'o out (assuming it's not the Rib-Cage version that Sasuke uses).

Obviously. But I'm not claiming team Minato wins at least.

Yeah, it should. He can travel through mater so he should get inside Susano'o.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Obviously. But I'm not claiming team Minato wins at least.

Yeah, it should. He can travel through mater so he should get inside Susano'o. How is the 4th gonna get inside susanoo? he is nothing like madara he cant just phase through things... the 4th is good just not that good

Originally posted by yungz22
How is the 4th gonna get inside susanoo? he is nothing like madara he cant just phase through things... the 4th is good just not that good

He doesn't need to get inside susanoo. In fact, in all honesty, he just have to wait for Susanoo's users to let themselves being drained. It's not that Minato can't dodge anything they throw at him. And he could try to weaken the Susanoo like Danzo did. Or he could teleport Susanoo to the middle of an ocean. Many possibilities here.

Originally posted by yungz22
How is the 4th gonna get inside susanoo? he is nothing like madara he cant just phase through things... the 4th is good just not that good

He can't phase through things, but he can travel through space to a select location of his choosing. If he tags Sasuke or Itachi before they put Susano'o up, Minato can port to them when they have Susano'o up, and appear right behind them. The larger versions of Susano'o we've seen have a single or dual layer of armor, and then empty space, around the user.

That said, I'd wager Susano'o's activation is as fast as, if not faster than, that of FTG. vin...no srsly.

If we take Naruto's latest revealed skills, I say team Uzumaki for the win

Yeah...haermm

Naruto would rip A to shreds. Assuming Itachi o Sasuke kill Bee with Amaterasu, it is basically to lightning bruisers vs Susano'o. Itachi's stamina is crap and Sasuke would not be able to stop both of them.

So yeah. Uzumaki does indeed win. Until we see Sasuke again that is.

Without EMS Sasuke (just MS Sasuke), Team Minato wins.

Also, why can't Minato teleport through solid objects like the matter-to-energy-to-matter-again teleportation concept?

In all honesty, I think Team Raikage is more powerful than Team Uchiha.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Itachi => Minato > Bee > Sasuke > Naruto > A


Naruto's new skills do not change this, except for placing him below Bee and above Sasuke.

That said, yeah, Minato & Naruto likely win.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Naruto's new skills do not change this, except for placing him below Bee and above Sasuke.

That said, yeah, Minato & Naruto likely win.

In your opinion what makes Sasuke superior to
Naruto?

Mangekyo, thats basically all there is to it

Mangekyo's nice and all, but Naruto can throw a rasenshuriken with a single finger now.

Originally posted by McNasty996
In your opinion what makes Sasuke superior to
Naruto?

I already said that Naruto is currently superior to Sasuke with the MS.

Would like to see Naruto tackle genjutsu in this form. That is about the only thing Sasuke has over him at the moment. Sensing evil feelings might be able to get him out of it.

Originally posted by Q99
Mangekyo's nice and all, but Naruto can throw a rasenshuriken with a single finger now.

Sasuke should have no problems dodging those mini-Rasenshurikens.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Would like to see Naruto tackle genjutsu in this form. That is about the only thing Sasuke has over him at the moment. Sensing evil feelings might be able to get him out of it.

I doubt it.

He has a bit of Itachi's 'power' as well. Might be a counter to genjutsu, or just a way for Itachi to talk to Sasuke again?

I do think that is what Itachi is planning to do with that power. :O

I still don't understand how can you think that Itachi>Minato.

Let's see: Minato beat Madara, someone Itachi couldn't kill and who was Madara's inferior.
Itachi feared Jiraya and had to run for his life the only time he fought him while having Kisame to backing him up, someone who thought that Minato was stronger then himself.

Besides, Itachi doesn't even have that much chakra, and one of his main strenghts, his speed, means nothing against the fastest character in Naruto universe. Sure, Itachi can be a great challenge for Minato, but I can't see him as the strongest one.
Besides, seeing how Susano is a last resource for Itachi and he would engage his opponents in taijutsu, even if Minato doesn't kill him during the taijutsu battle (I just can't see anyone good enough to fight him in a taijutsu fight), he would end up tagged with Hirashin anyway. And then even Susano wouldn't help him.

I don't think Itachi is >Minato.

Minato is a better match against Madara than Itachi. Itachi did not really fear Jiraiya, who Itachi could probably beat, Itachi was a good guy and it wouldn't be smart to fight Jiraiya, another good guy, to the death.

Since when was speed the best strength of Itachi's? His genjutsu is what is most deadly about him. Minato, at present, has never shown any kind of genjutsu ability. Though he likely has one of course. Not that it's easy to get Minato in a genjutsu to begin with probably.

Itachi has never really been shown to be taijutsu savvy. His fights certainly point to him being a long distance fighter. The only reason Minato could tag Bee so easily was because A really is a one trick pony and Bee had to save him. Itachi is likely not to be put in the same position.

The guy who was saying that Sasuke is a better character than Naruto fails so hard it makes dividing by zero look quaint.

Pre-Shippuden Naruto is a legitimate badass and one of the best characters in the series easily. Sasuke has always been awful since the chunin exams. Even now Naruto isn't on the same planet of fail Sasuke is. My god does Sasuke suck right now.

And this fight may well be one of the closest and most ambiguous I've ever seen. Though I will point out that Itachi's eye powers/genjutsu is so powerful that he was somehow able to plant an amaratsu in Sasuke that would go off on sight of Madara. Thats just fvcking crazy and no-one has done anything like it in the series to my knowledge.

Where did the massive Sasuke hate come from? Random to say the least.

I actually like Sasuke's character more than Naruto's.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Itachi has never really been shown to be taijutsu savvy. His fights certainly point to him being a long distance fighter. The only reason Minato could tag Bee so easily was because A really is a one trick pony and Bee had to save him. Itachi is likely not to be put in the same position.

He beat up Sasuke pretty bad.....if that counts for anything. A though he could match Minato's reaction and failed trying, it's not his or Bee's fault that Minato's the god of reflexes. I will say that two Susanoos might be too much for him.


Originally posted by Nephthys
The guy who was saying that Sasuke is a better character than Naruto fails so hard it makes dividing by zero look quaint.

Pre-Shippuden Naruto is a legitimate badass and one of the best characters in the series easily. Sasuke has always been awful since the chunin exams. Even now Naruto isn't on the same planet of fail Sasuke is. My god does Sasuke suck right now.


The closest thing Naruto's ever gotten to badass was his arrival in fron of Pein during the invasion arc. Hebi Sasuke wasn't all that bad actually, he legitimately beat an S class nin.

This fight is pretty much Minato vs two Uchiha. Naruto's new and unexplained upgrade in Kyuubi usage may make his stronger than ever but his genjutsu defense is still lacking considerably.

But if they moved fast enough wouldn't it render genjutsu somewhat useless?

Originally posted by Darth Angel
I still don't understand how can you think that Itachi>Minato.

Let's see: Minato beat Madara, someone Itachi couldn't kill and who was Madara's inferior.
Itachi feared Jiraya and had to run for his life the only time he fought him while having Kisame to backing him up, someone who thought that Minato was stronger then himself.

Besides, Itachi doesn't even have that much chakra, and one of his main strenghts, his speed, means nothing against the fastest character in Naruto universe. Sure, Itachi can be a great challenge for Minato, but I can't see him as the strongest one.
Besides, seeing how Susano is a last resource for Itachi and he would engage his opponents in taijutsu, even if Minato doesn't kill him during the taijutsu battle (I just can't see anyone good enough to fight him in a taijutsu fight), he would end up tagged with Hirashin anyway. And then even Susano wouldn't help him.

The second Minato looks at Itachi, Minato's out.

Yes, I can wank my favoured character too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The guy who was saying that Sasuke is a better character than Naruto fails so hard it makes dividing by zero look quaint.

Pre-Shippuden Naruto is a legitimate badass and one of the best characters in the series easily. Sasuke has always been awful since the chunin exams. Even now Naruto isn't on the same planet of fail Sasuke is. My god does Sasuke suck right now.

And this fight may well be one of the closest and most ambiguous I've ever seen. Though I will point out that Itachi's eye powers/genjutsu is so powerful that he was somehow able to plant an amaratsu in Sasuke that would go off on sight of Madara. Thats just fvcking crazy and no-one has done anything like it in the series to my knowledge.

Naruto has never been a badass until the last chapter. Saying that he's a badass in Part 1 is what makes dividing by zero look quaint in comparison to the failure of that statement.

He was never an interesting character, at least not until he talked to Nagato, and to his mother.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The second Minato looks at Itachi, Minato's out.

Yes, I can wank my favoured character too.

Of course, Minato is not likely to look directly at the Uchiha eyes and is likely not as awful as his son at genjutsu. That and he can always use summons to break it for him. Tsukuyomi is the exception obviously but Itachi wouldn't likely start with that.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Where did the massive Sasuke hate come from? Random to say the least.

I actually like Sasuke's character more than Naruto's.
They are both atrocious... Sasuke comes off just a bit worse to me though because of the ridiculousness of his motives at this point. Like, Naruto may be idiotic but at least he's doing it for reasons we can accept are good. Sasuke uses stupid logic to justify destroying konoha when even a child could see what a ridiculous plan it is.

Well that is the point: Sasuke has literally snapped. And said snapping had some pretty good justification behind it. He is not sane so of course his actions seem childish and stupid.

I agree and that's my interpretation as well. But that doesn't make it any less annoying to read. Reading Sasuke's dialogue, I might as well just go outside and listen to some homeless person ramble.

Well, Sasuke and said homeless person have legitimate reasons to ramble.

But we don't read this manga to listen to homeless people ramble.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
The closest thing Naruto's ever gotten to badass was his arrival in fron of Pein during the invasion arc. Hebi Sasuke wasn't all that bad actually, he legitimately beat an S class nin.

Sorry I can't hear you over the awesomeness of the Gaara fight. Or the Sasuke fight. Hell the Neji fight is badass. Part one Naruto was badass.

Sasukes just legitimately crazy.



Part 1 Naruto was damn cool. He was a guy who never gave up and always scraped through by being a badass.

Disagree. I always thought his loneliness and outcast status made him a very interesting character. His scene with Gaara was one of the best in the entire series.



The fact that he's an axe crazy lunatic who only wins his fights because the plot demands it (like when, near chakra exhaustion, he was able to summon and bind a building sized snake before an explosion 5 feet away could hit him.), he steals the manga from the main charcter and basically he has zero good qualities whatsoever. He hasn't since after Naruto started getting powerful in the Chunin exams. He's a jealous, crazy *******. And he was my favourite character before the chunin arc!

I'm more surprised at the Naruto hate.

hater gon hate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But we don't read this manga to listen to homeless people ramble.

Of course. We read it to watch ninja's with the most emotional baggage in the world fight. Sasuke just happens to be the one with the most...Probably.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry I can't hear you over the awesomeness of the Gaara fight. Or the Sasuke fight. Hell the Neji fight is badass. Part one Naruto was badass.

Sasukes just legitimately crazy.

I will actually agree to this. Naruto in part 1 is much much more awesome to Naruto in part 2. His speech at the end of the Gaara fight actually made me a little teary eyed.

A lot of characters are legitimately crazy.


Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact that he's an axe crazy lunatic who only wins his fights because the plot demands it (like when, near chakra exhaustion, he was able to summon and bind a building sized snake before an explosion 5 feet away could hit him.), he steals the manga from the main charcter and basically he has zero good qualities whatsoever. He hasn't since after Naruto started getting powerful in the Chunin exams. He's a jealous, crazy *******. And he was my favourite character before the chunin arc!

I'm more surprised at the Naruto hate.

hater gon hate.

Sasuke has more legitimate wins under his belt than Naruto actually. Mook fighting not withstanding of course. I wouldn't call it stealing the manga considering how important the character of Sasuke is to the main character. He is supposed to be the foil and junk. And I wouldn't say he has no good qualities, considering he still has bar none the funniest line in the entire series. That and it depends very much on what one considers good qualities. His reaction to events and overall disposition are great qualities for a fallen hero. Though I am confused why he lost good qualities in the Chunin arc? That was when Sasuke was still a more or less heroic character who in fact was the leader of team 7 when Kakashi wasn't around.

It's not that I hate Naruto. Just his backstory never feels fleshed out enough for me to care about it. His Hero complex is when his character became most interesting. A desire to protect everything is something he has had for quite a while.

Dude, that isn't why I watch it.



Not like Sasuke. Even Gaara wasn't this bad.



Yeah, I lol'd, but thats the only likable thing he's done in about 400 chapters. Other than that he's stupid, crazy and a massive cock.



They're really not. Sasuke has gone massively downhill since the Itachi stuff. Declaring war on Konoha? Attacking the Kage Summit? Trying to kill Karin? Those aren't logical progression in his charcter. he jumped right off the slippery slope with no motivation at all. He's just insane at this point.



Exactly. Personally the thing I hate the most about Sasuke is that this guy and this guy are the same person. As I said, I used to really like Sasuke, that first guy is interesting and likable, someone who clearly cares about his friends despite his emotional baggage and is conflicted over his past. But lately Kishi has turned him into a character who has somehow simultaneously become the craziest pyschopath in the manga and the most boring. Everything he does is baffling to me and at the same time, I don't give a shit. Its wierd.



I'm re-readig the chunin ema arc right now and I'm just not seeing it. Naruto is a great character there, and his backstry is really well explored through his interactions with Neji, Gaara, Hinata etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, that isn't why I watch it.

But that's what it is so I mean, what else is there?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Not like Sasuke. Even Gaara wasn't this bad.

Indeed. Gaara was much worse. He killed people purely because it gave him an erection. Sasuke has only just started that and even now he is picky on who he wants to kill(Konoha seems to be his main target and he does not seem to give a shit about anyone else). Gaara would kill freaking anyone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I lol'd, but thats the only likable thing he's done in about 400 chapters. Other than that he's stupid, crazy and a massive cock.

So was Pain. And other villains.


Originally posted by Nephthys
They're really not. Sasuke has gone massively downhill since the Itachi stuff. Declaring war on Konoha? Attacking the Kage Summit? Trying to kill Karin? Those aren't logical progression in his charcter. he jumped right off the slippery slope with no motivation at all. He's just insane at this point.

Why would you look for logic in someone who has literally gone insane for good reason? Sasuke's character at present has no purpose beyond killing people. His character really has no where to go at present. But that is the point. His character has really only one thing left: Being saved by Naruto. Which is the ultimate challenge of our protagonist. If he weren't off his rocker, if he could be reasoned with, if he had reasonable goals, he wouldn't be the ultimate challenge for Naruto.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Exactly. Personally the thing I hate the most about Sasuke is that this guy and this guy are the same person. As I said, I used to really like Sasuke, that first guy is interesting and likable, someone who clearly cares about his friends despite his emotional baggage and is conflicted over his past. But lately Kishi has turned him into a character who is somehow simultaneously become the craziest pyschopath in the manga and the most boring.

Well that is the thing about character arcs: They usually involve change. The same can be said for Naruto, Sakura, Gaara, etc. Sasuke just happens to be a negative example. Considering he is an example of the fallen hero, this makes perfect sense. And he really isn't that boring to me. He is sporting the funniest lines in the series and actually goes as far as to have his own evil laugh. It's awesome.




Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm re-readig the chunin ema arc right now and I'm just not seeing it. Naruto is a great character there, and his backstry is really well explored through his interactions with Neji, Gaara, Hinata etc.

Not...really. I can not honestly remember many flashbacks to Naruto's childhood that don't involve Sasuke or a pbunch of people standing behind him while he is looking sad. Gaara actually had memorable examples in his backstory, like retrieving the kids ball and being called a monster when trying to do something nice.

In this regard though, the anime shines. Naruto's backstory is much more heartbreaking in the fillers than in the manga.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course. We read it to watch ninja's with the most emotional baggage in the world fight. Sasuke just happens to be the one with the most...Probably.
I like the fights, and I like the characters who keep their baggage to a minimum. Naruto and Sasuke pour on the pathos, which might be OK if the writing weren't so shitty. I can't empathize with Sasuke because I can't see myself making any of the decisions he made. I can't see anyone with a brain making any of the decisions he made.

Originally posted by Nephthys



Sorry I can't hear you over the awesomeness of the Gaara fight. Or the Sasuke fight. Hell the Neji fight is badass. Part one Naruto was badass.

Sasukes just legitimately crazy.



I almost forgot about Naruto and Gaara's fight. That actually was Naruto's shining momment for Part 1 and stayed that way for a good portion of Part 2. Same with the Neji fight

Naruto was never a badass though...not even now with his unexplained Kyuubi Mastery.

Sasuke's only crazy because of Madara. Had he still be oblivious to the truth he'd be restoring his clan right now

He's only crazy because of Madara? No... its his fault that he fell for it. He's supposed to be doing everything on Itachi's behalf; i'd take the fact that Itachi programmed him to kill Madara as pretty strong evidence that he should be staying away from him and in no way following his orders.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I like the fights, and I like the characters who keep their baggage to a minimum. Naruto and Sasuke pour on the pathos, which might be OK if the writing weren't so shitty. I can't empathize with Sasuke because I can't see myself making any of the decisions he made. I can't see anyone with a brain making any of the decisions he made.

Everyone has baggage. Even if it's just a little. Those without it are either really lame or Minato. But yeah, entertaining fights. And of course you can't see why someone would make the decisions Sasuke is making. You are, as far as I know, sane.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He's only crazy because of Madara? No... its his fault that he fell for it. He's supposed to be doing everything on Itachi's behalf; i'd take the fact that Itachi programmed him to kill Madara as pretty strong evidence that he should be staying away from him and in no way following his orders.

Except that it is Madara's fault. Sasuke is still responsible for his own actions of course but Madara is the one who pushed him into insanity.

I agree, everyone has a little baggage. Its the people with endless, whining baggage that I don't like. That's like saying I should like the KKK because everyone is a little racist.

How did Madara push him into insanity? He just told him a totally true fact. He's not the one who said "you should destroy Konoha", Sasuke completely came up with that part on his own.

If Sasuke is responsible for his own actions, that means by the very definition that it is his fault. Responsibility = owning up to your own actions. Nobody forced Sasuke to decide to destroy Konoha, in fact Madara even went out of his way to point out that that is NOT what Itachi would have wanted.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I agree, everyone has a little baggage. Its the people with endless, whining baggage that I don't like. That's like saying I should like the KKK because everyone is a little racist.

How did Madara push him into insanity? He just told him a totally true fact. He's not the one who said "you should destroy Konoha", Sasuke completely came up with that part on his own.

If Sasuke is responsible for his own actions, that means by the very definition that it is his fault. Responsibility = owning up to your own actions. Nobody forced Sasuke to decide to destroy Konoha, in fact Madara even went out of his way to point out that that is NOT what Itachi would have wanted.

Well for a second there you make them sound like, pfft, teenagers. People complain in real life for a lot of things and none of them have half the baggage as a lot of these characters.

Except Madara made it seem like everything Itachi said was a lie. Which is not true as far as the Kyuubi incident goes, which is what led to the Uchiha getting screwed over in the end. Madara painted Itachi in such a nice light but basically made Konoha look like scum. And of course the guy who is telling you, in so far as you know, the truth is more appealing than the people who killed your family. Not that Sasuke likes Madara.

Indeed, but he is still insane because of Madara. Sasuke answered that by saying that pretending to accept Itachi's will would be nothing but words. I see the logic behind the insanity. Itachi made Sasuke live his life through hatred so it's not wonder the kid went off the deep end when his conception of reality was shattered for the second time and started wanted to kill left and right.

See King Kandy's post. Though Sasuke's personality problems are not interesting in the slightest and have been driven into the ground over the course of the manga. Its not fun to watch Sasuke act like a pissy retard.



Gaara at least has a reason to kill people. He was justifying his existence in his own way an it made sense in his own ****ed up serial killer logic. Sasuke tried to kill Karin because............ because.



Hint: You're not supposed to like the villians.

Though Pain was equally lame imo. My pain is greater than yours because my dog died! Plus.... that fight...



Because he hasn't gone insane for good reason. He was perfectly fine up until the Kage summit then BAM craziness mountain! Seriously, why is he insane? Becuse his clan was kiled? No, he was fine for most of the manga. A dick, but not crazy. Itachi? No again, he's fine after Itachi's death up until after the Bee fight. Madara? Madara hasn't done jack shit to him.




Christ that is lame as shit. No offense but it is.



If you mean negative as in 'utterly awful' then yes. You see, those character arcs actually made sense and its enjoyable to see them play out. Sasuke is painful to watch because of the total 180 into crazyville he makes.



The Fallen Hero archetype only works when teh audience is saddened over the characters fall. With Sasuke I'm just baffled and pissed off over it. It fails on every concievable level.

Plus.... he was never a hero.



Just because he didnt get extensive flashbacks doesn't make him poorly explored. There doesn't need to be any flashbacks, everything we need to know is presented to us purely through visuals alone. Thats not bad, thats brilliant and subtle. And the way his pain is linked to those of others like Neji and Gaara is, again, brilliant.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well for a second there you make them sound like, pfft, teenagers. People complain in real life for a lot of things and none of them have half the baggage as a lot of these characters.

Except Madara made it seem like everything Itachi said was a lie. Which is not true as far as the Kyuubi incident goes, which is what led to the Uchiha getting screwed over in the end. Madara painted Itachi in such a nice light but basically made Konoha look like scum. And of course the guy who is telling you, in so far as you know, the truth is more appealing than the people who killed your family. Not that Sasuke likes Madara.

Indeed, but he is still insane because of Madara. Sasuke answered that by saying that pretending to accept Itachi's will would be nothing but words. I see the logic behind the insanity. Itachi made Sasuke live his life through hatred so it's not wonder the kid went off the deep end when his conception of reality was shattered for the second time and started wanted to kill left and right.
Right... I don't make a habit of listening to real-life teenagers ***** about their lives, so why would I want to read about it either?

That would be fine except that the programmed amaterasu is a clear sign that Madara was up to no good. Sasuke justifies everything he does on the basis of Itachi so there is no way he should be following Madara since that's exactly the opposite of what Itachi wanted. And what has following Madara got him? Its gotten him to pick fights with people he had nothing against, and getting beaten to the verge of death multiple times in the process. Only a fool would keep listening to someone who offers such bad advice.

No, he's not insane because of Madara. If he couldn't handle the truth how is that Madara's fault? Its nobody's fault but his own. Like I said, there were CLEAR indications that Madara was up to no good, so Sasuke should have known better. Its his own fault that hearing the truth lead him to "I must kill the konoha peoplz!" Madara actually told him straight to his face what a dumb idea that was. So how is it his fault?

Originally posted by Nephthys
See King Kandy's post. Though Sasuke's personality problems are not interesting in the slightest and have been driven into the ground over the course of the manga. Its not fun to watch Sasuke act like a pissy retard.

Which is why I find it ironic that you're complaining about him right now when we haven't spent time on Sasuke for a while



Originally posted by Nephthys
Gaara at least has a reason to kill people. He was justifying his existence in his own way an it made sense in his own ****ed up serial killer logic. Sasuke tried to kill Karin because............ because.

Because she was worthless and in the way. In the way I can see. I see no reason to let Karin outside except for the fact that she can sense. Just keep her home and bite on her when you need to. She clearly can't handle herself when a dying old man takes her hostage.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Hint: You're not supposed to like the villians.

Though Pain was equally lame imo. My pain is greater than yours because my dog died! Plus.... that fight...

People do like villains. Rooting for them on the other hand is something you're not supposed to do. But I'm not rooting for Sasuke so is all good.

Eh, extremist. And yeah, the fight was pretty ugly.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he hasn't gone insane for good reason. He was perfectly fine up until the Kage summit then BAM craziness mountain! Seriously, why is he insane? Becuse his clan was kiled? No, he was fine for most of the manga. A dick, but not crazy. Itachi? No again, he's fine after Itachi's death up until after the Bee fight. Madara? Madara hasn't done jack shit to him.

Well he saw Danzo at the summit. And was planning to kill him. And then the Samurai got in the way and he thought his prey would get away. That made him mad but he was insane before then.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c416/13.html

Originally posted by Nephthys
Christ that is lame as shit. No offense but it is.

Yes. I like it when my protagonists ultimate enemy has no build up to him.

Saving Sasuke is the main plot of the story. Fighting Madara just happens to be there too. We can't see any challenge in saving Sasuke if it doesn't appear that he would be impossible to save.


Originally posted by Nephthys
If you mean negative as in 'utterly awful' then yes. You see, those character arcs actually made sense and its enjoyable to see them play out. Sasuke is painful to watch because of the total 180 into crazyville he makes.

Not really a 180 considering it doesn't come out of nowhere.


Originally posted by Nephthys
The Fallen Hero archetype only works when teh audience is saddened over the characters fall. With Sasuke I'm just baffled and pissed off over it. It fails on every concievable level.

Plus.... he was never a hero.

It's a good thing you are pissed about it because not all Fallen Heroes require sympathy. Any negative emotion towards them will work nicely.

Well that's simply not true.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because he didnt get extensive flashbacks doesn't make him poorly explored. There doesn't need to be any flashbacks, everything we need to know is presented to us purely through visuals alone. Thats not bad, thats brilliant and subtle. And the way his pain is linked to those of others like Neji and Gaara is, again, brilliant.

I don't really see it. Naruto's main interaction with Neji consisted of Neji calling him a loser and Naruto telling him to stfu. More of a loser defines all odds deal than the tragic outcast thing. Gaara its handled better but I still don't like it. I know Naruto is an outcast but that's because of what I'm told more than anything else.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Right... I don't make a habit of listening to real-life teenagers ***** about their lives, so why would I want to read about it either?

I dunno. That's what Naruto has been since day one. It just also happens to have fighting in it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That would be fine except that the programmed amaterasu is a clear sign that Madara was up to no good. Sasuke justifies everything he does on the basis of Itachi so there is no way he should be following Madara since that's exactly the opposite of what Itachi wanted. And what has following Madara got him? Its gotten him to pick fights with people he had nothing against, and getting beaten to the verge of death multiple times in the process. Only a fool would keep listening to someone who offers such bad advice.

Or you can take it for what it was: Itachi did not want Sasuke to learn the truth because Sasuke, regardless of what Itachi wanted, really could not handle the truth. And yes, it got him in a lot of trouble. But it also got him Danzo's head. So I suppose the long term rewards are worth it to Sasuke.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, he's not insane because of Madara. If he couldn't handle the truth how is that Madara's fault? Its nobody's fault but his own. Like I said, there were CLEAR indications that Madara was up to no good, so Sasuke should have known better. Its his own fault that hearing the truth lead him to "I must kill the konoha peoplz!" Madara actually told him straight to his face what a dumb idea that was. So how is it his fault?

It is Madara's fault for telling him the truth that he was never supposed to know. To Sasuke, Madara doesn't seem that bad a guy. Working with him allows for revenge, which Sasuke is fine with. Madara hasn't done anything bad to Sasuke that would make Sasuke resent the guy.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course, Minato is not likely to look directly at the Uchiha eyes and is likely not as awful as his son at genjutsu. That and he can always use summons to break it for him. Tsukuyomi is the exception obviously but Itachi wouldn't likely start with that.

Perhaps, but Itachi does not need his eyes to trap someone. He can always give Minato the finger. 313
He'll need to have summons out before he gets trapped, if he wants to use them to escape. By that time, Itachi could likely just torch him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Part 1 Naruto was damn cool. He was a guy who never gave up and always scraped through by being a badass.

Disagree. I always thought his loneliness and outcast status made him a very interesting character. His scene with Gaara was one of the best in the entire series.


Determined badass? Or determined jackass? The Gaara and Sasuke fights were about the only times I thought Part 1 Naruto was interesting. Other times, he was just annoying. Sasuke was far more interesting than he was in Part 1.

A status that was quickly left behind after the Gaara fight, and picked up again at VotE, and dropped again after the business with Akatsuki & Gaara.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I dunno. That's what Naruto has been since day one. It just also happens to have fighting in it.
Naruto is far from perfect. I read it for the fighting and the non-whiny characters. It could definitely be improved if it included more of that and less of the whining. And the whining wasn't NEARLY as bad in part I.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or you can take it for what it was: Itachi did not want Sasuke to learn the truth because Sasuke, regardless of what Itachi wanted, really could not handle the truth. And yes, it got him in a lot of trouble. But it also got him Danzo's head. So I suppose the long term rewards are worth it to Sasuke.
What about Killerbee? That got Sasuke absolutely nothing but a bad beating. There was little motive for it, other than to fulfill Madara's wishes. That said, the Danzo thing is equally stupid in its own right; Itachi followed Danzo's orders because he recognized they were necessary to save the country. Sasuke tells Danzo "don't speak to me of Itachi", but it sounds like Danzo actually has much more respect for Itachi's sacrifice than Sasuke does.

Sasuke will wear Madara's uniform and follow his every command and still has the stupidity to tell him "I don't work for you". The bottom line is that he will fall for any stupid idea Madara puts in his head regardless of if it benefits him or not. That makes for a very weak character imo.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It is Madara's fault for telling him the truth that he was never supposed to know. To Sasuke, Madara doesn't seem that bad a guy. Working with him allows for revenge, which Sasuke is fine with. Madara hasn't done anything bad to Sasuke that would make Sasuke resent the guy.
I would hope that getting sent on pointless suicide missions that accomplish nothing would count as having done something bad to him. If Sasuke can't see that the things Madara has him do are not in his best interest (in fact, in most cases they directly oppose them: Sasuke wants to respect Itachi's sacrifice, but Madara's plans actually render the sacrifice pointless).

As far as telling him the truth, oh please. Madara didn't force Sasuke to react the way he did. His brother died to save Konoha, and the lesson Sasuke draws from this is "I will respect my brother by destroying Konoha". Is that Madara's fault? No, it isn't. In fact, Madara told him to his face that that line of thinking was completely wrong and not at all respectful to Itachi. So if anything, Madara was actually a moderating influence.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Naruto is far from perfect. I read it for the fighting and the non-whiny characters. It could definitely be improved if it included more of that and less of the whining. And the whining wasn't NEARLY as bad in part I.

Part 1 had more whiny characters than Part 2 iirc...They got better though...Until they get revived and junk.



Originally posted by King Kandy
What about Killerbee? That got Sasuke absolutely nothing but a bad beating. There was little motive for it, other than to fulfill Madara's wishes. That said, the Danzo thing is equally stupid in its own right; Itachi followed Danzo's orders because he recognized they were necessary to save the country. Sasuke tells Danzo "don't speak to me of Itachi", but it sounds like Danzo actually has much more respect for Itachi's sacrifice than Sasuke does.

Sasuke will wear Madara's uniform and follow his every command and still has the stupidity to tell him "I don't work for you". The bottom line is that he will fall for any stupid idea Madara puts in his head regardless of if it benefits him or not. That makes for a very weak character imo.

It got him practice, which is what he wanted. It was also presented as an opportunity to get more power so it makes sense. And no, he doesn't. He said Itachi betrayed Konoha. Without even considering the fact that Madara, the guy who was there the night of the Uchiha massacre, might have told Sasuke instead. Itachi's sacrifice was so great that calling him a traitor is basically asking for it.

Indeed. But it really isn't because Sasuke is stupid. Madara is teh Chess Master. He knows how to push Sasuke's buttons.


Originally posted by King Kandy
I would hope that getting sent on pointless suicide missions that accomplish nothing would count as having done something bad to him. If Sasuke can't see that the things Madara has him do are not in his best interest (in fact, in most cases they directly oppose them: Sasuke wants to respect Itachi's sacrifice, but Madara's plans actually render the sacrifice pointless).

As far as telling him the truth, oh please. Madara didn't force Sasuke to react the way he did. His brother died to save Konoha, and the lesson Sasuke draws from this is "I will respect my brother by destroying Konoha". Is that Madara's fault? No, it isn't. In fact, Madara told him to his face that that line of thinking was completely wrong and not at all respectful to Itachi. So if anything, Madara was actually a moderating influence.

Madara has also saved his life so it balances out. Madara never gives Sasuke an order. He just knows how to get Sasuke to do what he wants.

Telling Sasuke the truth is what caused him to go insane though. Itachi predicted that possibility and did not want it to happen. Did not work. And it did not help that Madara painted Konoha in a rather bad light compared to Itachi, along with making it seem like the 3rd Hokage was the only redeemable person and he's gone now so hey, there isn't no one good left. And I really do think Madara did that for show. He does want Sasuke to think he is making his own decisions when he really is just being led along like a puppet.

Originally posted by King Kandy

As far as telling him the truth, oh please. Madara didn't force Sasuke to react the way he did. His brother died to save Konoha, and the lesson Sasuke draws from this is "I will respect my brother by destroying Konoha". Is that Madara's fault? No, it isn't. In fact, Madara told him to his face that that line of thinking was completely wrong and not at all respectful to Itachi. So if anything, Madara was actually a moderating influence.

Sasuke was mentally unstable due to his brother's mental torture and life philosophies. Who knows Madara might've been using reverse psycology on the poor sap

It still not as bad as being a guy around his 30's being convinced by a 16 year old boy to die for said boy's village of whom are responsible for killing his parents, ravaging his land by warring with other countries, and pushing his newly found organization to the brink of collapse.




Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Telling Sasuke the truth is what caused him to go insane though. Itachi predicted that possibility and did not want it to happen. Did not work. And it did not help that Madara painted Konoha in a rather bad light compared to Itachi, along with making it seem like the 3rd Hokage was the only redeemable person and he's gone now so hey, there isn't no one good left. And I really do think Madara did that for show. He does want Sasuke to think he is making his own decisions when he really is just being led along like a puppet.

You'd think that Itachi would tell his fellow Akatsuki members about this in order to get at least someone to listen to him. An attack on Madara w/back-up could've been another alternative but not likely. Looking back both Itachi, Madara, and in a weird way Naruto led to Sasuke's path to darkness.

Back on the topc in this thread I wonder if Minato can get around two Susanoos or if Itachi can just incinerate his Kunai or something.

FTG can go through matter so if he tags them he can get through.