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Thor
Captain America
Iron Man
Hercules (Classic)
Spiderman
Ant Man (Hank)
The Wasp
Worldbreaker Hulk

vs

Professor X
Emma Frost
Tabitha Smith
Armor
Cyclops
Storm
Rogue
Sunspot
Namor
Wolverine
Magma
Gambit
Iceman
Colossus
Dust
North Star
Aurora
Jean Grey (Classic)
Beast

Avengers.

Now, when you say "classic" Jean... ?

Professor X alone can take out half of the Avengers.

Hulk beat half these guys in WWH. Hell, Thor has a decent shot of soloing.

the threat from x-men team are the two telepath. thor can take them, while wwhulk maul the rest of the x-men like he did before.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Professor X alone can take out half of the Avengers.

Based on what? Thor has resisted telepaths many times. The Hulk has resisted Professor X before. So what do you base this conclusion on?

Iron Man's armor should protect him from tp too

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Based on what? Thor has resisted telepaths many times. The Hulk has resisted Professor X before. So what do you base this conclusion on? "half the avengers".

Check my math, but I'm pretty sure that Hulk and Thor, being 2 people, don't comprise half of a team of 8.

Not that the X-Men win this, but still...

Well, I could have continued, but as Mr. Mind pointed out, Iron Man has protection against TP. And I'm pretty sure Hercules does as well. But regardless, those are the most important members of the Avengers team, and I'm pretty sure Thor and Hercules together could win without the rest of the team.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Well, I could have continued, but as Mr. Mind pointed out, Iron Man has protection against TP. And I'm pretty sure Hercules does as well. But regardless, those are the most important members of the Avengers team, and I'm pretty sure Thor and Hercules together could win without the rest of the team.

Well, Emma has a thing about bypassing psi-shields as soon as she's confronted with one. I doubt IM is better off than Sentinels or Skrulls etc.

I don't know enough about Thor's resistance feats to argue against him, so I won't.

The Avengers would win because of Hulk.

BTW there are 3 telepaths on that team. I don't see Thor lasting. Dealing with WWH will be a problem.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The Avengers would win because of Hulk.

BTW there are 3 telepaths on that team. I don't see Thor lasting. Dealing with WWH will be a problem.

lol. good one.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
lol. good one.

Yes Moondragon and Bedlam have frozen Thor telepathically. Those are three of the most powerful Telepaths on Marvel Earth. Thors not lasting.

The Avengers will win cause of WWH. I don't think WWH will let Rogue get near enough to the frozen Avengers to steal their powersets. If she gets Thors they may have a chance.

What's Hulk gunna do to Iceman?

Originally posted by Konton
What's Hulk gunna do to Iceman?

Hmmm not sure, depends on the writer I guess. Iceman has been having a bad time as of lately. Burns from Nimrod machines, being exhausted etc.. I have a funny feeling that if the Hulk drank him he'd be attacked by Hulk white blood cells. But that has never happened to my knowledge...anyway I don't know. I don't know about Iceman.

Maybe Northstar and Aurora can move Rogue around so she can grab as many TP KO'd Avengers as possible.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hulk beat half these guys in WWH. Hell, Thor has a decent shot of soloing.
Thor would last 4, 5 seconds. Professor X freezes him, Wolverine chops off his head.

Next.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Thor would last 4, 5 seconds. Professor X freezes him, Wolverine chops off his head.

Next.

LOL!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, X-Men stand a better chance if they can telepathically convert the opposition to fight Hulk.

These things always boil down to the heaviest hitter and the telepaths.

Avengers. Thor and Hulk run wild.

Hulk solos any day of the week. Not ****ing around Thor would also solo.

Avengers shit stomp.

Avengers.

So it's Pym's Antman and Janet's Wasp?????

Originally posted by MrMind
Iron Man's armor should protect him from tp too

Not only does he have TP protection in the suit (on models more advanced than the one I'm about to show - and have been shown to work on extremely powerful individuals) he can also jam all the telepaths:

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4253/jampsionics.jpg

Originally posted by The Nuul
Hulk solos any day of the week. Not ****ing around Thor would also solo.

Avengers shit stomp.
No they won't. Not by far.

I think X-Men win as they have about half as many fighters

A lot of the X-Men are very underrated on this forum

How many of the Avengers are resistant to mind attacks from the 3 or 4 telepaths?

I know Hulk is resistant and Thor is I think

Doubt Spider-Man and Captain America are

You also have Iceman, is he at omega level?

What kind of Rogue, can she absorb a few powers at once?

Hulk is awesome but Jean Grey can just use telekinesis to remove him if she gets chance

big battles like this have so many variables

Rogue can take Thor. No problem.

Professor X can take Spider-Man, Ant Man and Captain America probably at the same time.

Worldbreaker Hulk will be a problem, but nothing they can not overcome.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Rogue can take Thor. No problem.

because she will touch him before she receives a hammer to the face?

Avengers, their heavy hitters are just better.

Moondragon is able to read Thors secret in his mind and she then mind wipes all the Avengers present in these scans.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6130/avengersv1177page18.th.jpghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/3814/avengersv1177page19.th.jpg

Moondragon is able to prevent every Avenger in the room from looking at her, she then freezes them all. His thoughts are interconnected to his suit, so he commands it to carry himself out of her range apparently. Anyway he doesn't jam her psi-powers he makes it difficult to deploy them. She's getting static on every channel. Can be overcome with a little concentration. The Avengers are free and Tony tells them to not give her time to concentrate. She can still deploy her TK though.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9992/avengersv1211page13.th.jpghttp://img861.imageshack.us/img861/8969/avengersv1211page16.th.jpghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7685/avengersv1211page17.th.jpghttp://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5929/avengersv1211page18.th.jpg

MODOK, amped by the Doomsday chair can read IronMans mind.

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1157/annualtieins22page24.th.jpg

Bedlam ensanring Thor, Iron Man and Spider-Man. Xavier counters Bedlam long enough to break his hold on them.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5052/juggernauttheeighthdayp.th.jpghttp://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5052/juggernauttheeighthdayp.th.jpg

Originally posted by Warlord
because she will touch him before she receives a hammer to the face?
I don't know. Rogue is pretty fast, and she has some kind of sixth sense, a bit like Spider-Man, to dodge and avoid attacks.

Besides, since when is dodging Mjolnir this big feat ? Especially when you can fly really fast and have some kind of sixth sense.

Fact is, Rogue can absorb Thor powers. She has done it already.

Rogue 1 - Thor 0

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy


Fact is, Rogue can absorb Thor powers. She has done it already.


Yeah, 30 years ago, during her first ever appearance as a villain. Too bad nowadays she overloads on Ares.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Moondragon is able to read Thors secret in his mind and she then mind wipes all the Avengers present in these scans.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6130/avengersv1177page18.th.jpghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/3814/avengersv1177page19.th.jpg

Moondragon is able to prevent every Avenger in the room from looking at her, she then freezes them all. His thoughts are interconnected to his suit, so he commands it to carry himself out of her range apparently. Anyway he doesn't jam her psi-powers he makes it difficult to deploy them. She's getting static on every channel. Can be overcome with a little concentration. The Avengers are free and Tony tells them to not give her time to concentrate. She can still deploy her TK though.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9992/avengersv1211page13.th.jpghttp://img861.imageshack.us/img861/8969/avengersv1211page16.th.jpghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7685/avengersv1211page17.th.jpghttp://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5929/avengersv1211page18.th.jpg

MODOK, amped by the Doomsday chair can read IronMans mind.

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1157/annualtieins22page24.th.jpg

Bedlam ensanring Thor, Iron Man and Spider-Man. Xavier counters Bedlam long enough to break his hold on them.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5052/juggernauttheeighthdayp.th.jpghttp://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5052/juggernauttheeighthdayp.th.jpg

I'm not posting all the scans. Go here to confirm:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t522796.html


Thor's immortal mind is equally durable and while not immune, he is highly resistant to mental tampering. Here, he resists the Mind Thrust attack of the Rigellians in Thor Annual #4.


A hallucinogenic mist only appears to affect Thor, who in reality was feigning unconsciousness in Thor #172.


As Vision recounts, Thor is immune to the magical music influence of Ares in Avengers #98.


Hhe resists the Stranger's mind-blast where Moondragon (herself a considerable telepath) cannot, from Avengers #138.


The Egyptian god, Horus, uses the Eye of Horus to subdue Thor but is unsuccessful in Thor #240.


During Infinity War, Thor frees himself from Moondragon's and the Goddess' mental manipulations of Thor's mind, from Infinity Watch #21.


Direct mental blasts from Moondragon's Mind Gem are equally useless during the Blood and Thunder arc in Thor #469:

Thor casts out Loki's spiritual influence from his mind in Thor Annual #19.


Thor is also the first Avenger to realize Morgana's warping of the world using her magic, the Scarlet Witch's power and the Twilight Sword and then resist her domination over his mind, in Avengers vol. 3 #2.

Cyclops solos. mmm

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Yeah, 20 years ago, during her first ever appearance as a villain. Too bad nowadays she overloads on Ares.

She's done it twice. In Contest of Champions as well as the Avengers Annual.

Seriously, I don't see the X-Men winning but the Thor fanboyism is rampant here.

Ummm also as for this. One look at it and I now know that I have to look at all those feats in context. I mean you have Avengers v 138 listed there. I know for a fact that's not the Stranger. It was Toad. And he fooled everyone with his mental tricks. Including Thor and Iron man.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I'm not posting all the scans. Go here to confirm:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t522796.html


Thor's immortal mind is equally durable and while not immune, he is highly resistant to mental tampering. Here, he resists the Mind Thrust attack of the Rigellians in Thor Annual #4.


A hallucinogenic mist only appears to affect Thor, who in reality was feigning unconsciousness in Thor #172.


As Vision recounts, Thor is immune to the magical music influence of Ares in Avengers #98.


Hhe resists the Stranger's mind-blast where Moondragon (herself a considerable telepath) cannot, from Avengers #138.


The Egyptian god, Horus, uses the Eye of Horus to subdue Thor but is unsuccessful in Thor #240.


During Infinity War, Thor frees himself from Moondragon's and the Goddess' mental manipulations of Thor's mind, from Infinity Watch #21.


Direct mental blasts from Moondragon's Mind Gem are equally useless during the Blood and Thunder arc in Thor #469:

Thor casts out Loki's spiritual influence from his mind in Thor Annual #19.


Thor is also the first Avenger to realize Morgana's warping of the world using her magic, the Scarlet Witch's power and the Twilight Sword and then resist her domination over his mind, in Avengers vol. 3 #2.

The story starts in Avengers 137 and finished in

Avengers v1 138.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9459/avengersv1138page10.th.jpg
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2172/avengersv1138page11.th.jpghttp://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4593/avengersv1138page12.th.jpg

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7033/avengersv1138page19.th.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
She's done it twice. In Contest of Champions as well as the Avengers Annual.



Context please. That Rogue was amped.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Context please. That Rogue was amped.

That wasn't Rogue amped. That was a Rogue in control of her power. The Brood Queen or whatever was controlling her.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
That wasn't Rogue amped. That was a Rogue in control of her power. The Brood Queen or whatever was controlling her.

Wow. You're calling people Thor fanboys? Are you really serious? You think that's how powerful she is normally? Have you actually read the comic, or did you just see a few scans or synopsises online?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorMentalDefense01Annual4.jpg

He's resistant wow...there are 3 First Order telepaths in this thread.



Not Telepathy.




Not Telepathy and he's been influenced by Venus singing btw.



Not the stranger it was Toad using a machine. And they all were tricked into believing it was the Stranger.

Let me check out the context of the others more thoroughly.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Wow. You're calling people Thor fanboys? Are you really serious? You think that's how powerful she is normally? Have you actually read the comic, or did you just see a few scans or synopsises online?

Show me a scan where it said she was amped? The Brood Queen psyche is not fractured like Rogues so she had her power under control. Just like when Carols persona took over her. Yes I am. Because she has absorbed Thors powers twice. That is canon. She has issues absorbing Ares and Loki. That is what canon has shown us.

Powerful in what sense. No I'm stateing that she can absorb Thor as shown by comics. She can't absorb Ares fully and can't absorb Loki at all as shown by comics.

BTW You're projecting because you're the one who thought that was the actual Stranger in Avengers v1 138...it wasn't it was Toad. Stop using Respect Threads as your only source.

I think with the way WWH was written he'd shit stomp this team of X-Men. But trying to discredit on panel feats to make Thor look better is laughable.

The Goddess gives an explanation on the following pages of that scan.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5663/35warlockinfinitywatch2.th.jpghttp://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5663/35warlockinfinitywatch2.th.jpg




Warrior Madness Thor.

And Moondragon does well considering that.

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/5299/05themightythorvol1469p.th.jpghttp://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5299/05themightythorvol1469p.th.jpghttp://img848.imageshack.us/img848/5299/05themightythorvol1469p.th.jpghttp://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5299/05themightythorvol1469p.th.jpg




Not telepathy.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris


The Egyptian god, Horus, uses the Eye of Horus to subdue Thor but is unsuccessful in Thor #240.

Thor casts out Loki's spiritual influence from his mind in Thor Annual #19.

I can give you these two...because I'm not arsed to go and check up on them. Not sure if either are telepathy the Horus one seems closer to telepathy then the Loki one. But both seem more magic orientated but it really doesn't matter. Maybe someone else can chime on this.


Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not Telepathy and he's been influenced by Venus singing btw.



Not telepathy either but just for anyone who's interested.
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4674/chaoswar3page6.th.jpg

None of the TP users start out by ganging up on a single person, the other side might as well say that Thor starts out by using a massed lightning attack to take out 2/3rd's of the X-men, including the TP users.

He could also cause a flood or tornado, or if he's feeling frisky, all 3.

Originally posted by Silent Master
None of the TP users start out by ganging up on a single person, the other side might as well say that Thor starts out by using a massed lightning attack to take out 2/3rd's of the X-men, including the TP users.


very true.
Avengers have this

Originally posted by Silent Master
None of the TP users start out by ganging up on a single person, the other side might as well say that Thor starts out by using a massed lightning attack to take out 2/3rd's of the X-men, including the TP users.

He could also cause a flood or tornado, or if he's feeling frisky, all 3.

I don't think they need to gang up on anyone. They have feats to show that they can attack more then one person at a time. Other instances of note with Thor and telepathy: Sersi has confounded with illusion, Dr. Spectrum has gotten him, Bedlam has gotten him a second time as well and so has Moondragon on another instance that wasn't posted in this thread.

I can see Iron Man and WWH lasting after that attack. Iron Man for some reason doesn't switch on his TP blockers all the time (recent Avengers 8 I think??). But for this thread I'll assume his battle ready. I think Iceman could dehydrate him though.

I don't see how the X-Men can dispose of WWH.

BTW Even if we assume Thor gets the first shot, Northstar and Aurora are fast enough to move the TP users away from harm.

Jean can shield them telekinetically too.

The Avengers win but because of WWH.

Originally posted by Silent Master
None of the TP users start out by ganging up on a single person, the other side might as well say that Thor starts out by using a massed lightning attack to take out 2/3rd's of the X-men, including the TP users.

He could also cause a flood or tornado, or if he's feeling frisky, all 3.
True, but telepathy is still faster. And almost impossible to dodge, or avoid, or whatever.

Thor has better speed and reaction feats than the TP users do, that would mean his attack starts first and it would be very difficult for them, to attack mentally while dealing with lightning/flood/tornado or a combo of the 3.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Thor has better speed and reaction feats than the TP users do, that would mean his attack starts first and it would be very difficult for them, to attack mentally while dealing with lightning/flood/tornado or a combo of the 3.

I'd argue that from the majority of his showings against people who have human reaction times that they don't seem to be at that much of a disadvantange speedwise.

But again, even if you were to assume his attack is faster, Northstar and Aurora are much faster, can fly and keep the Telepaths safe long enough so that they can attack.

WWH wins this for the Avengers.

Illusions, at least the way sersi and dr. spectrum or dr strange cast them, are not telepathy. it is just visualized projections, so getting confused by them has nothing to do with psionic resistance.

anyway if Thor starts the fight with an omnidirectional attack a-la Durok no one from the team can shield them and the twins cannot move faster than light to save them

Originally posted by Warlord
Illusions, at least the way sersi and dr. spectrum or dr strange cast them, are not telepathy. it is just visualized projections, so getting confused by them has nothing to do with psionic resistance.

anyway if Thor starts the fight with an omnidirectional attack a-la Durok no one from the team can shield them and the twins cannot move faster than light to save them

Sersi would be telepathy though. Regardless their are plenty of examples on the previous page which are telepathy.

Twins got an upgrade, they react and move at light speed. I think it was the Children of the Vault arc.

CIS is on he's not going to hit them with something that will kill them.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'd argue that from the majority of his showings against people who have human reaction times that they don't seem to be at that much of a disadvantange speedwise.

But again, even if you were to assume his attack is faster, Northstar and Aurora are much faster, can fly and keep the Telepaths safe long enough so that they can attack.

WWH wins this for the Avengers.

Except, there are seven other Avengers there helping Thor.

Like I said, the Avengers just have better heavy hitters.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Except, there are seven other Avengers there helping Thor.

Like I said, the Avengers just have better heavy hitters.

The telepaths are faster then those Avengers, the only ones left after a TP attack would be Iron Man and WWH.

And WWH will win it for them.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The telepaths are faster then those Avengers, the only ones left after a TP attack would be Iron Man and WWH.

And WWH will win it for them.

The TP users are either out of the fight or being distracted by the flood/lightning/tornados.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Sersi would be telepathy though. Regardless their are plenty of examples on the previous page which are telepathy.

Twins got an upgrade, they react and move at light speed. I think it was the Children of the Vault arc.

CIS is on he's not going to hit them with something that will kill them.

No sersi's illusions are visual projections too forming from cosmic power control. i remember her creating them from her hands. she can of course create mental illusions too as she's a telepath but the ones i've seen were as described above

the upgrade is no longer on from what I've heard.
and CIS on he can hit them with something that can knock them out.
there are examples also that suggest he is resistant enough to unleash an omnidiractional attack.

anyway Thor and Hulk win this

Originally posted by Silent Master
The TP users are either out of the fight or being distracted by the flood/lightning/tornados.

If Aurora and Northstar are holding on to the TP users while keeping them safe from whatever, then they're free to attack the Avengers and take out half that team including Thor.

I think Iceman, Magma would survive an attack like that too.

Originally posted by Warlord
No sersi's illusions are visual projections too forming from cosmic power control. i remember her creating them from her hands. she can of course create mental illusions too as she's a telepath but the ones i've seen were as described above

That's fine. But there are no examples showing that he could do that with 3 high order telepaths freezing him.



I don't recall this, I've kept tabs on Northstar since he joined the X-Men. I have seen nothing stating that he lost his upgrade which he got when he joined the X-Men.

WWH wins this.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
If Aurora and Northstar are holding on to the TP users while keeping them safe from whatever, then they're free to attack the Avengers and take out half that team including Thor.

I think Iceman, Magma would survive an attack like that too.

Assuming that the TP users weren't taken out in the initial attack, Thor can easily keep up the pressure and while N&A might be able to go lightspeed, can they do so while carrying people with human level durability?

^ IIRC KM was talking about this in some other post.
I could be wrong.

anyway I also think that he would fall against 3 high end telepaths IF they would be going at him for some time.

which clearly won't be the case here

Originally posted by Silent Master
Assuming that the TP users weren't taken out in the initial attack, Thor can easily keep up the pressure and while N&A might be able to go lightspeed, can they do so while carrying people with human level durability?

They wouldn't be because Aurora and Northstar are fast enough to get to them. And once they get to him all they need is to think and half the team go down.

Not sure but I've seen them carry stuff safely using their superspeed.. It'll be near c. Still much faster then thor.

If we had one telepath there. I'd be like fair enough. But we have 3.

WWH will take this.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Still much faster then thor.


Thor has gone c x 3 but in any case they'd have to be faster than magic energies not Thor himself

Originally posted by Warlord
Thor has gone c x 3 but in any case they'd have to be faster than magic energies not Thor himself

Thor on average is not that fast combat speed wise. And that's flight speed not reaction speed. And is he really going to lash out on his team mates with an omni-directional attack?

BTW I'm not sure what post of KM you're referring to. I haven't seen anything to suggest they lost their upgrade.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They wouldn't be because Aurora and Northstar are fast enough to get to them. And once they get to him all they need is to think and half the team go down.

Not sure but I've seen them carry stuff safely using their superspeed.. It'll be near c. Still much faster then thor.

If we had one telepath there. I'd be like fair enough. But we have 3.

WWH will take this.

Aurora and Northstar would have to notice that the TP users are in trouble first and they'll be dodging lightning/floods/tornados themselves, so there is no guarantee that they'll notice in time.

Show some scans of them carry people with human level durability where their speed is listed or implied to be near c.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Aurora and Northstar would have to notice that the TP users are in trouble first and they'll be dodging lightning/floods/tornados themselves, so there is no guarantee that they'll notice in time.

Show some scans of them carry people with human level durability where their speed is listed or implied to be near c.

They react at c, so they'd notice pretty fast.
I have scans of Northstar moving with people at superspeed if that's what you want?

It doesn't have to be near c, they're faster then Thor anyway by a lot. And all they need is time to think.

Lightning is a third the speed of c. And he's not going to unleash and omnidirectional blast. Not if it means hurting the other Avengers. Same with floods.

Then there's Iceman too.

Isn't Namor pretty fast as well?

WWH takes this.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They react at c, so they'd notice pretty fast.
I have scans of Northstar moving with people at superspeed if that's what you want?

It doesn't have to be near c, they're faster then Thor anyway by a lot.

Lightning is a third the speed of c. And he's not going to unleash and omnidirectional blast. Not if it means hurting the other Avengers. Same with floods.

Ok, show scans of Northstar noticing and saving people while he's also being attacked.

I want scans that of him moving people with human level durability at near c.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Thor on average is not that fast combat speed wise. And that's flight speed not reaction speed. And is he really going to lash out on his team mates with an omni-directional attack?

BTW I'm not sure what post of KM you're referring to. I haven't seen anything to suggest they lost their upgrade.

reaction speed he has reacted at point blank psi blasts.
he has ftl reflexes
He can unleash this wide attack without hurting his teammates.
he can form it aiming only the targets in front of him

by the way Thor does not only shoot lightning from his hammer. So the twins have to go > c to doge this, more so to save others

Originally posted by Silent Master
Ok, show scans of Northstar noticing and saving people while he's also being attacked.

I want scans that of him moving people with human level durability at near c.

Northstar is faster then Thor. He won't be attacked.

Why do you want scans at c. Thor can't hit him with an attack at c. Not unless he wishes to hurt the other Avengers.

Originally posted by Warlord
reaction speed he has reacted at point blank psi blasts.
he has ftl reflexes
He can unleash this wide attack without hurting his teammates.
he can form it aiming only the targets in front of him

by the way Thor does not only shoot lightning from his hammer. So the twins have to go > c to doge this, more so to save others

On his average showing Thor does not have those reflexes.

Do we have a scan of Thor taking out people? Before they can even process a thought? With a wide area attack?

Jean even has TK shields.

Storm can counter.

Iceman and Namor can run interference.

WWH wins but they have the tools to take Thor down.

Originally posted by Warlord
he has ftl reflexes

Lol, no he doesn't.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Northstar is faster then Thor. He won't be attacked.

Why do you want scans at c. Thor can't him him with an attack at c. Not unless he wishes to hurt the other Avengers.



On his average showing Thor does not have those reflexes.

why not? his energy blasts (not only the omnidirectional ones) are below c?
how so?

thor on average deals with speedsters all the time. unless we stick to the "he's slower than wolverine" idiocy

Originally posted by batdude123
Lol, no he doesn't.

lol ok

Originally posted by Warlord
No sersi's illusions are visual projections too forming from cosmic power control. i remember her creating them from her hands. she can of course create mental illusions too as she's a telepath but the ones i've seen were as described above

Sersi's power source is cosmic, like any Eternal, but she's a telepath and has done more than project visuals. I don't recall her creating visuals from her hands (in fact, I think you're confusing her for Mantis in Guardians of the Galaxy), but even if she did that could just be her routing her conscious through her target audience... which would require telepathy. Sersi has also scanned the globe with her mind and often communicates without speaking.

Originally posted by Warlord
why not? his energy blasts (not only the omnidirectional ones) are below c?
how so?

thor on average deals with speedsters all the time. unless we stick to the "he's slower than wolverine" idiocy

Thor had to hit the ground to dispose of Quicksilver. Northstar flies.

Thor had issues with Osborns cronies in Siege and they're not speedsters. I'd argue this team has more power output then them (Barring the Sentry).

Originally posted by Konton
Sersi's power source is cosmic, like any Eternal, but she's a telepath and has done more than project visuals. I don't recall her creating visuals from her hands (in fact, I think you're confusing her for Mantis in Guardians of the Galaxy), but even if she did that could just be her routing her conscious through her target audience... which would require telepathy. Sersi has also scanned the globe with her mind and often communicates without speaking.

I never disregarded her tp.
she is a telepath for sure.
The ilussions I am talking about were coming through her hands in an old avengers issue just like projections

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Thor had to hit the ground to dispose of Quicksilver. Northstar flies.

Thor had issues with Osborns cronies in Siege and they're not speedsters. I'd argue this team has more power output then them.

he didn't shout magic energy blasts at him. why hitting the ground to ko him means he could not do it in some other way

did he have issues with their speed?
i don't think so. also pis instance

Originally posted by Warlord
he didn't shout magic energy blasts at him. why hitting the ground to ko him means he could not do it in some other way

did he have issues with their speed?
i don't think so

No but they didn't have issues with his speed. As does the majority of the people with human reflexes that he goes up against when he's with the Avengers.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Northstar is faster then Thor. He won't be attacked.

Why do you want scans at c. Thor can't hit him with an attack at c. Not unless he wishes to hurt the other Avengers.

Sure he will, Thor has plenty of AOE options.

Now, about those scans.

Thor didn't have issues with quicksilver's speed so that doesn't mean much.

anyway avengers win this and if people feel like debating Thor vs speedsters visit the omega red and gorgon vs thor thread

by the way ice man would be the biggest issue for me

Originally posted by Warlord
I never disregarded her tp.
she is a telepath for sure.
The ilussions I am talking about were coming through her hands in an old avengers issue just like projections

Then what's your point?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Sure he will, Thor has plenty of AOE options.

Now, about those scans.

I'm not sure, can't think of any. I know he's travelled with people using his superspeed. I have scans of that. I know he managed to save that one reject mutant from suffocating in the atmosphere in Eve of Destruction and then transported them both back to the battle field.

I don't understand why it needs to be at c though? Whatever speed he travels at he's still more then a match for thors reflexes especially with Namor, Iceman and Storm running interference. If you're gonna flood the place then you're just making Namor stronger.

Plus Iceman can end up in Thors stomach and freeze him from the inside. Or dehydrate him. He's done both.

Plus all the telepaths need to do is think.

Hulk will win this for the Avengers no doubt. But again the team have the tools to take Thor down.

Originally posted by Konton
Then what's your point?

illusions (holograms) vs illusions (mind affecting)

Then we are back to Thor taking out the TP users in the first attack and watching while the other 7 Avengers deal with the rest.

The main problem is the telepathic users. And that's probably where the last 3 pages of arguments have come from. Too lazy to read them. If Thor's involved, Moondragon's probably the example used. He had a showing where she freezes him back in the day. Unfortunately, since then, Thor has seemingly gotten more resistant to her attacks. Even in the showing where she influences him he illustrates influence. And there's also Blood and Thunder where he illustrates crazy good resistance, despite her having the Mind Gem.

Originally posted by Warlord
illusions (holograms) vs illusions (mind affecting)

But the hologram illusion is still just the tp user envisioning a projection and then using telepathy to show that projection to other people by routing it through their nervous system. Mantis explained this when she did it. The telepath is still clearly affecting the mind...

Thor's most notable showings of will power.

Originally posted by Konton
But the hologram illusion is still just the tp user envisioning a projection and then using telepathy to show that projection to other people by routing it through their nervous system. Mantis explained this when she did it. The telepath is still clearly affecting the mind...

in sersi's case the illusion was springing from her hands...
some form of energy projection.

I don't say she cannot do it via tp, but in that case it was not illustrated this way.

anyway... avengers have this

That Sandu feat is pretty good, and that's from an early Thor, too. All things considered, Thor has some some good mental resistant feats to argue against the times he's been mind controlled or had his thoughts read to make it worth arguing that it could or couldn't happen. I don't see how anyone is being a Thor "fanboy" by using concrete examples of feats and showings to shed doubt that a telepathic assault would be an auto-win for the X-Men or likewise arguing whether or not Rogue's draining would be effective immediately enough to turn the tide or if she'd be able to do it before she was struck by Mjolnir or lightning or something.

It's missing a scan. Here's Sandu effectively being resisted:
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/WithstandsSandu4.jpg

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The main problem is the telepathic users. And that's probably where the last 3 pages of arguments have come from. Too lazy to read them. If Thor's involved, Moondragon's probably the example used. He had a showing where she freezes him back in the day. Unfortunately, since then, Thor has seemingly gotten more resistant to her attacks. Even in the showing where she influences him he illustrates influence. And there's also Blood and Thunder where he illustrates crazy good resistance, despite her having the Mind Gem.

I will get through that list when I have time, some of the stuff are good feats, some of the stuff you've listed is magic orientated like the Enchantress, Ares, Lorlei and Morgana. I think the one instance you're quoting is when he was Warrior Madness Thor. And IRRC the madness was the reason stated in the issue why she had so much trouble with his mind.

It wasn't just Moondragon scan, There's a Bedlam scan as well.

BTW The feat with the Stranger needs to be updated. That was Toad not the Stranger.

This here is Toad using one of the Strangers machines to cast an illusion. He tricked all the Avengers.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ResistsMindBlastStranger.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ResistsMindBlastStranger2.jpg


Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That Sandu feat is pretty good, and that's from an early Thor, too. All things considered, Thor has some some good mental resistant feats to argue against the times he's been mind controlled or had his thoughts read to make it worth arguing that it could or couldn't happen. I don't see how anyone is being a Thor "fanboy" by using concrete examples of feats and showings to shed doubt that a telepathic assault would be an auto-win for the X-Men or likewise arguing whether or not Rogue's draining would be effective immediately enough to turn the tide or if she'd be able to do it before she was struck by Mjolnir or lightning or something.

I wasn't saying that user was a fanboy for saying that Thor could resist a telepathic assault. I was saying it because he was disregarding both of the times when Rogue KO'd him with a touch because he didn't like them. If you read what I said I never said anything about Rogue beating Thor in a one on one. She obviously would have to get near enough. The debate was a separate one involving Rogues powers and their effects on him. Canon Rogue has knocked him out with a single touch twice.

Those are the only times when Rogue ever tried to use her powers on him. Her powers work differently on Ares and Loki but Thor they work fine until shown otherwise.

Regardless, I said the Avengers would take it because of Hulk and I still think that team has the tools to take out Thor.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I will get through that list when I have time, some of the stuff are good feats, some of the stuff you've listed is magic orientated like the Enchantress and Morgana. I think the one instance you're quoting is when he was Warrior Madness Thor. And that was stated in the issue why she had so much trouble with his mind.

BTW The feat with the Stranger needs to be updated. That was Toad.

This here is Toad using one of the Strangers machines to cast an illusion. He tricked all the Avengers.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ResistsMindBlastStranger.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ResistsMindBlastStranger2.jpg

You could argue Thor's mystical back ground offers him better natural resistance but said resistance comes from his will power not an inherent immunity or anything of the sort. Any time he resists a mental attack or manipulation, it's a feat. Not as clear cut as others, but it still matters. The difficulty isn't in getting into his mind.

It was because Thor was in such a rage or whatever. Apparently a pissed off Thor > telepathic assault from Moondragon and the Mind Gem. Makes sense based on his history actually.

The feat occurred in Avengers #138 IIRC. Are you sure it was Toad? How did he replicate the mind storm? If he used a machine to do it, then it doesn't matter. Thor still withstood a mental based assault that Moondragon could not. If it was not a mental power attack, that's a different story. It's been about 3 years since I read the older Avengers issues so I'm not 100% sure.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You could argue Thor's mystical back ground offers him better natural resistance but that's about it. Thor's resistance comes from will power not an inherent immunity or anything of the sort. Any time he resists a mental attack or manipulation, it's a feat.

It was because Thor was in such a rage or whatever. Apparently a pissed off Thor > telepathic assault from Moondragon and the Mind Gem.

The feat occurred in Avengers #138 IIRC. Are you sure it was Toad? How did he replicate the mind storm? If he used a machine to do it, the feat still stands. It's been about 3 years since I read the older Avengers issues so I'm not 100% sure.

I'd say his mystical background offers him natural resistance to magic. But I'd say his susceptibility to telepathy seems fine. In some of the scans which you posted that were actual telepathy it still effected him he may have resisted eventually but it still effected him in some cases brought him down to his knees.
I believe the Exemplar Bedlam took him down twice. Then there's Moondragon.

I'd argue he has a good chance of resisting one of the three telepaths. But there's 3 of them. Even in a comic I doubt that would ever happen. Not all three at the same time. Not unless he had some sort of amp.

It said he was insane, apparently that made it harder for Moondragon. It's also the reason why he broke the Goddess's influence.

Yep 137/138. It's definitely Toad I posted the scans early on in the thread. He tricked all of them with that machine into thinking that was the Stranger. So that's another time he's been baboozled.

Moondragon scares the illusion off in 137 with her mental powers.

See Toad:

http://img856.imageshack.us/i/avengersv1138page19.jpg/

I've been going through everything X-Men related for the last few months. Beast was in the Avengers from that period so I read all that. So that's how I remembered that.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'd say his mystical background offers him natural resistance to magic. But I'd say his susceptibility to telepathy seems fine. In some of the scans which you posted that were actual telepathy it still effected him he may have resisted eventually but it still effected him in some cases brought him down to his knees.

Like I said, Thor's not immune to telepathy; getting into his head isn't the problem. I think high end Telepaths like Moondragon, Xavier etc. should definitely be able to do it. It's overcoming his will that's the problem.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I believe the Exemplar Bedlam took him down twice. Then there's Moondragon.

She did this once to Thor:
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/Bedlam1.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/Bedlam2.jpg

As you can see, her telepathic assault hurt Thor but he was fine.

I don't have access to Iron Man #22 or the Eighth Day one shot to make sure her telepathy is never directly used against Thor again.

What other scene are you referring to?

The best Moondragon has ever done is froze Thor. Since then, she's become less and less effective against him. Thor has feats against Moondragon herself to counter that.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'd argue he has a good chance of resisting one of the three telepaths. But there's 3 of them. Even in a comic I doubt that would ever happen. Not all three at the same time.

Why would all three telepaths target Thor at the same time? I don't think he can withstand a telepathic assault from all 3 unless his in a rage or such.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It said he was insane, apparently that made it harder for Moondragon. It's also the reason why he broke the Goddess's influence.

It wasn't attributed specifically to his insanity but to his rage. The same occurred in the scene with the Goddess. He was under her influence until he got pissed off, and then it broke. Which like I said makes sense. The more pissed off he is, the less effective mental assaults seem to become.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Yep 137/138. It's definitely Toad I posted the scans early on in the thread. He tricked all of them with that machine into thinking that was the Stranger. So that's another time he's been baboozled.

Moondragon scares the illusion off in 137 with her mental powers.

Hardly a knock against Thor. So did that machine replicate mental powers? If so, it's still a feat for Thor. I'll take out the comic later.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like I said, Thor's not immune to telepathy; getting into his head isn't the problem. I think high end Telepaths like Moondragon, Xavier etc. should definitely be able to do it. It's overcoming his will that's the problem.



She did this once to Thor:
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/Bedlam1.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/Bedlam2.jpg

As you can see, her telepathic assault hurt Thor but he was fine.

I don't have access to Iron Man #22 or the Eighth Day one shot to make sure her telepathy is never directly used against Thor again.

What other scene are you referring to?

Sound, Eighth Day One-shot. Posted it earlier in the thread. She freezes all of them telepathically.



Did she not bring him to the ground in that Blood and Thunder arc...a few pages before he resists her mind blast.





Sound. This is all I wanted to hear.





The Goddess attributed it to his insanity though. Posted the scans earlier in the thread.




I think it was just illusions. That's how Toad describes it.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Sound, Eighth Day One-shot. Posted it earlier in the thread. She freezes all of them telepathically.

Oh, I remember what you're talking about. IIRC, she hurts Thor and co. with a surprise telepathic attack for a few moments until Xavier intervenes. It didn' take Thor out IIRC. Not one I'd call a bad showing. She was definitely an Xavier level telepath imo. I'd also argue that if Thor was pushed, he'd resist her attack like he does against others akin to Cain.

It should be noted, my argument isn't that Thor is immune to telepathic assault. It's that Thor can resist them when he needs to which I think is one that's supported by his history.

I'll look for them later.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Did she not bring him to the ground in that Blood and Thunder arc...a few pages before he resists her mind blast.

I'm pretty certain she used the Mind Gem to try and remove the Valkyrie from his mind, and he collapsed. Thor's psyche was actually pretty fragile. His spirit was reduced to bits and pieces. She was smart in trying to cure him indirectly but it back fired.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The Goddess attributed it to his insanity though. Posted the scans earlier in the thread.


Did she not outright say that an Asgardian spirit was too tough to tame? I remember her then adding that Thor was also insane but his resistance was the main reason IIRC. Which is in line with the scene.

Cool, I'll look for them later as well.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I think it was just illusions. That's how Toad describes it.

Are you sure his not referring to the Strange thing? The narration refers to a mind storm that even affects there mind (Image of Scarlet Witch) and later on Moondgragon comments on how that version lacked mental based powers when previously he was nigh omnipotent in that regard. Telepathic abilities had to be duplicated in some regard.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Oh, I remember what you're talking about. IIRC, she hurts Thor and co. with a surprise telepathic attack for a few moments until Xavier intervenes. Not one I'd call a bad showing. She was definitely an Xavier level telepath imo. I'd also argue that if Thor was pushed, he'd resist her attack like he does against others.

It should be noted, my argument isn't that Thor is immune to telepathic assault. It's that Thor can resist them when he needs to which I think is one that's supported by his history.

I'll look for them later.

That's the one.




She made SIF solid or something.





She says both. I don't think she gives a main reason.




He mentions being able to use the equipment because of hanging out with Mastermind. He doesn't really mention anything else. Could be a telepathic illusion in everyones minds.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
She made SIF solid or something.

Not Sif, the Valkyrie which was a creation of Thor's broken psyche.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
She says both. I don't think she gives a main reason.

IIRC, Moondragon asks how Thor did what he did, and the Goddess says it's because Thor's Asgardian spirit was too tough to tame. She then goes on by saying "his also" insane or whatever.

It was explained pretty clearly as to what the main reason was imo. And that was even before Thor fully descended into the Madness.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He mentions being able to use the equipment because of hanging out with Mastermind. He doesn't really mention anything else. Could be a telepathic illusion in everyones minds.

Possibly, but there definitely some really powerful telepathy involved in some way and Thor withstood the attack better than Moondragon.

Northstar gets rid of hulk very far, Iceman collects everyone