Captain Marver/Black Adam vs Superman/Wonder Woman

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carver9
Everyone is at their standard levels.

new god reader
.

Colossus-Big C
team 1

JakeTheBank
Team 2. Clark and Diana have a better rapport than Teth and Billy and a greater sense of teamwork. The lasso can also depower the Marvels via asking the name of the Wizard.

Rage.Of.Olympus
The lasso is mentioned too much on this board imo. And I'm pretty sure it didn't go too well for her the last time she tried using it on Marvel?

Team 1 probably.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The lasso is mentioned too much on this board imo. And I'm pretty sure it didn't go too well for her the last time she tried using it on Marvel.

Team 1 probably.

She's depowered/beat him twice with it off the top of my head. Once in War of the Gods and again when he was possessed by the Sin of Gluttony and had stolen more of the Power of Shazam from Black Adam and Freddy and Mary.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
She's depowered/beat him twice with it off the top of my head. Once in War of the Gods and again when he was possessed by the Sin of Gluttony and had stolen more of the Power of Shazam from Black Adam and Freddy and Mary.

Really? Damn. I remember Diana wrapping the lasso around Marvel and being shaken off or something similar. I also remember her being unable to get the lasso around him at another point. Maybe the last one was Superman.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Really? Damn. I remember Diana wrapping the lasso around Marvel and being shaken off or something similar. I also remember her being unable to get the lasso around him at another point. Maybe the last one was Superman.

Yeah, with Superman, at least in Sacrifice, he was moving way too fast and erratic to get a bead on him, and while Marvel is generally portrayed as being physically a peer to him and I would imagine would try to avoid the lasso, Diana's got at least two instances of nabbing him with it and using its powers against him, so the precedence that she can do it is set.

Without it, she could probably outfight Billy for a good while, but Teth would fare a better shot.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, with Superman, at least in Sacrifice, he was moving way too fast and erratic to get a bead on him, and while Marvel is generally portrayed as being physically a peer to him and I would imagine would try to avoid the lasso, Diana's got at least two instances of nabbing him with it and using its powers against him, so the precedence that she can do it is set.

Without it, she could probably outfight Billy for a good while, but Teth would fare a better shot.

I also remember Diana got the lasso around a distracted Cap and he actively resisted; it was all Diana could do to hold onto the lasso. I also remember a power sharing -and depowered- Marvel with a broken arm holding his own against Diana. Plus she had an assist from Warrior. IIRC, at one point he beat her to her knees and stole her lasso.

Personally, I favor Marvel against Diana. Stronger, more invulnerable. Plus she's a woman, so automatically inferior. She's more skilled, but even as she herself noted, Marvel is a really good combatant so she's not making him look bad or anything. The fight most Diana fans post is from War of the Gods when Marvel was mind controlled and his powers were slowly being drained by the God of War. He still managed nothing less than a stalemate.

Edit: Didn't the Marvel's also resist the lasso's power during the All-Star Squadron and Crisis on the Infinite Earths storyline as well?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I also remember Diana got the lasso around a distracted Cap and he actively resisted; it was all Diana could do to hold onto the lasso. I also remember a power sharing -and depowered- Marvel with a broken arm holding his own against Diana. Plus she had an assist from Warrior. IIRC, at one point he beat her to her knees and stole her lasso.

Personally, I favor Marvel against Diana. Stronger, more invulnerable. Plus she's a woman, so automatically inferior. She's more skilled, but even as she herself noted, Marvel is a really good combatant so she's not making him look bad or anything. The fight most Diana fans post is from War of the Gods when Marvel was mind controlled and his powers were slowly being drained by the God of War. He still managed nothing less than a stalemate.

Edit: Didn't the Marvel's also resist the lasso's power during the All-Star Squadron and Crisis on the Infinite Earths storyline as well?

Yeah, that bit was in Underworld Unleashed, when Neron mind controlled the JLA to get Marvel, iirc.

As far as Virtue and Vice goes, after reading it, that was an amped Captain Marvel who was depowered by the lasso and Ollie, who had used its power as Diana was still connected to the lasso albeit knocked to the ground.

As far as CM vs WW goes, I would give him the edge physically against Diana, and while he's not a bad combatant, he's definitely outclassed in skill. Billy's also a damn nice kid and argueably holds back more and is less willing to cut loose than Superman whereas Black Adam could give a shit most of the time. I will say the lasso's ability to depower him is the single greatest advantage Diana has on any of the Marvel Family.

I'd have to check that out. As far as I know, the Power of Shazam shouldn't give him a resistence to the truth factor of the lasso once it ensnares him.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, that bit was in Underworld Unleashed, when Neron mind controlled the JLA to get Marvel, iirc.

As far as Virtue and Vice goes, after reading it, that was an amped Captain Marvel who was depowered by the lasso and Ollie, who had used its power as Diana was still connected to the lasso albeit knocked to the ground.

IIRC, it wasn't Neron who was actually controlling the JLA, it was just the dimension they were in that influenced the JLA, turning them evil. Marvel was just immune due to the purity of his soul. If memory serves correctly, Marvel stalemated most of the assembled heroes.

Was he amped? It's been a while. If so, that makes Diana look better. As far as I can tell without going back and re-reading their encounters, Marvel seems to be able to resist the lasso when in his own mind. I don't think it's an auto win. Either way, she doesn't pull it out nearly as often against top tiers as some people pretend.

quanchi112
Team 1 wins.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, it wasn't Neron who was actually controlling the JLA, it was just the dimension they were in that influenced the JLA. If memory serves correctly, Marvel stalemated most of the assembled heroes.

Was he amped? I'm not too clear. As far as I can tell without going back and re-reading their encounters, Marvel seems to be able to resist the lasso when in his own mind. I don't think it's an auto win. Either way, she doesn't pull it out nearly as often against top tiers as some people pretend.

It was either Neron controlling the heroes or the influence of hell itself. The purpose was for Neron to ultimately ensnare Marvel's pure soul and take it as his own, but was rebuffed by just how pure Marvel was.

Yeah, he was amped something fierce. He took back all of the Power of Shazam, Black Adam's power, and once he was depowered, all of the power he had stolen flowed back into the Wizard who dispelled the Sin Demons. I don't think the lasso is an auto-win by virtue of her having it, but if the lasso gets wrapped around either of them and they're asked "What's the name of the Wizard?", they're transforming back into their mortal forms. Diana and Superman both know they invoke the name of the Wizard to get their powers, so it's entirely plausible and reasonable for Diana to attempt to achieve this depowering means.

Q99
The lasso thing isn't a sure thing but it's at least an edge, and in the hands of a combatant who's already at roughly similar overall level.

And the team-work thing. Superman and WW are a well-oiled machine. WW can help Superman take more advantage of his range edge.


Team 2 more than not.



Yea, WW does try but he evades here, then he goes for her wrist so she'd have a harder time trying again.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
As far as CM vs WW goes, I would give him the edge physically against Diana, and while he's not a bad combatant, he's definitely outclassed in skill. Billy's also a damn nice kid and argueably holds back more and is less willing to cut loose than Superman whereas Black Adam could give a shit most of the time. I will say the lasso's ability to depower him is the single greatest advantage Diana has on any of the Marvel Family.

I'd have to check that out. As far as I know, the Power of Shazam shouldn't give him a resistence to the truth factor of the lasso once it ensnares him.

I agree. I'd argue his physically superior and has a raw speed advantage. I think Diana is clearly more skilled, but not enough to win the fight. In both of the fights they've had, Billy has been at a disadvantage and has managed no less than a stalemated.

I dislike that argument. Billy is a 16 year old whose been at the superhero game longer than Barry, Diana, Hal etc. and almost as long as Superman. His no idiot and his archenemy is a ruthless, powerful, experienced, and skilled mad man -Black Adam- who his managed to stalemate or beat -albeit with some help- on numerous occasions. Billy has been fighting demons, magicians and all sorts of monsters since the age of 9. His kind heart isn't a disadvantage when the going gets tough.

From what I remember, it has.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It was either Neron controlling the heroes or the influence of hell itself. The purpose was for Neron to ultimately ensnare Marvel's pure soul and take it as his own, but was rebuffed by just how pure Marvel was.

Yeah, he was amped something fierce. He took back all of the Power of Shazam, Black Adam's power, and once he was depowered, all of the power he had stolen flowed back into the Wizard who dispelled the Sin Demons. I don't think the lasso is an auto-win by virtue of her having it, but if the lasso gets wrapped around either of them and they're asked "What's the name of the Wizard?", they're transforming back into their mortal forms. Diana and Superman both know they invoke the name of the Wizard to get their powers, so it's entirely plausible and reasonable for Diana to attempt to achieve this depowering means.

Yea, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Neron, but hell.

Damn, I don't remember that. Been a while, my bad. The story where he beats her down and takes her lasso is from Virtue and Vice though so you're more than likely in the right.

I think out of 10 fights, she'd probably use it about 4 times. It'll get her 1 or 2 wins, with Billy dodging or resisting it long enough to break free for the other fights. I'd give Marvel 6-7/10 against Diana. She's really formidable, but I think it's his fight to lose.

It would probably be used even less against other top tiers imo.

Q99
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I think Diana is clearly more skilled, but not enough to win the fight. In both of the fights they've had, Billy has been at a disadvantage and has managed no less than a stalemated.


Wonder Woman's also never used her tiara or similar on him, or gone as harsh on him as she did on Supes in Sacrifice. Wonder Woman is definitely capable of winning.



Depending on when in continuity you're talking about, she showed up really soon after Superman. If there's a difference, it's maybe a year or two.

And, before she became a hero, she was under intense training since she was a little kid, as that's how Amazons roll.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Q99
Wonder Woman's also never used her tiara or similar on him, or gone as harsh on him as she did on Supes in Sacrifice. Wonder Woman is definitely capable of winning.

Due to Billy's mystical based resistance, I'd heavily argue that he'd be more resistant to the tiara than Clark unless I'm forgetting something. Also, with his level of speed, she'd have a hard time even hitting him. Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort. When she struck Clark, he saw Doomsday standing feet away.

The bracers would be effective in close combat ala Power Girl, but not enough to give her the edge for the majority.

His fought her when she was going for the kill at least once. Underworld Unleashed I believe. And she was pretty serious during War of the Gods IIRC. She wasn't as desperate as she was in sacrifice however.

Originally posted by Q99
Depending on when in continuity you're talking about, she showed up really soon after Superman. If there's a difference, it's maybe a year or two.

And, before she became a hero, she was under intense training since she was a little kid, as that's how Amazons roll.

IIRC, it was revealed during Winnick's run that Billy started his career the same year as Superman. From what I can tell, that's the same year as Batman but a year or two earlier than Diana, Barry etc. Not sure if that's change though. I kind of gave up on DC.

I'm not arguing his more experienced than her or anything. My main point is that using his age against him is silly. His pure heart doesn't make

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I agree. I'd argue his physically superior and has a raw speed advantage. I think Diana is clearly more skilled, but not enough to win the fight. In both of the fights they've had, Billy has been at a disadvantage and has managed no less than a stalemated.

I dislike that argument. Billy is a 16 year old whose been at the superhero game longer than Barry, Diana, Hal etc. and almost as long as Superman. His no idiot and his archenemy is a ruthless, powerful, experienced, and skilled mad man -Black Adam- who his managed to stalemate or beat -albeit with some help- on numerous occasions. Billy has been fighting demons, magicians and all sorts of monsters since the age of 9. His kind heart isn't a disadvantage when the going gets tough.

From what I remember, it has.



Yea, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Neron, but hell.

Damn, I don't remember that. Been a while, my bad. The story where he beats her down and takes her lasso is from Virtue and Vice though so you're more than likely in the right.

I think out of 10 fights, she'd probably use it about 4 times. It'll get her 1 or 2 wins, with Billy dodging or resisting it long enough to break free for the other fights. I'd give Marvel 6-7/10 against Diana. She's really formidable, but I think it's his fight to lose.

It would probably be used even less against other top tiers imo.

Yeah, Diana's not going to win a contest of strength or a race with him, but she'd hang with him about as well as she does Clark, probably a bit better.

And Billy's canonical issues are weird for me. You're talking about First Thunder, right? By Winnick? It's weird because he says Marvel's essentially the third major superhero to arrive in the DCU right after Batman and Superman, but before Hal, Barry, and Diana. And yet, he's still portrayed as a 16 year old kid when he should be at least as old as Dick Grayson. And it doesn't help that his own ongoing and graphic novel and various DC timelines portrayed him as being a new hero debuting quite some time after the "Big Seven". I chalk that shit up to DC's horrible timeline maintainence and needless retcons coupled with their mismanaging of the Marvel/Shazam! Franchise period. And I'm not knocking Billy being a good kid, far from it; he's been portrayed as being more "pure" than Clark himself for a while, now. It's just that he holds back a lot due to his own personality and CIS, save encounters with Black Adam. Even when he's in danger of being killed, he's holding back. Says a lot about his character and in a good way.

I'll try to find my UU stuff to confirm one way or the other; good showing for Marvel nevertheless as he was holding his own while being injured.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/StealShazam1.jpg

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/StealShazam.jpg

^ From Virtue and Vice, Marvel steals back the Power of Shazam from his family, and that of Black Adam's, whose powers come from different sources albeit similar in properties.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/LassoShazam.jpg

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/LassoShazam1.jpg

And the lasso, thanks to Ollie, manages to work on him despite him having all of the Marvel Family's power as well as Black Adam's. He resisted by not saying "Shazam!" right away, but it wasn't enough for the truth factor to be overridden. Based off that, I would say the lasso is going to work on a normal power level Billy or Adam.

All in all, I would say the argument is whether or not Diana would go for the lasso to use or be able to snare either one of them over whether or not it would work. Considering both her and Superman knows that the lasso has worked before, I think it's incredibly likely that Diana would attempt it and if she grabs either one, it's pretty much a done deal. Actually snaring either one of them is another story.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, Diana's not going to win a contest of strength or a race with him, but she'd hang with him about as well as she does Clark, probably a bit better.


I have no doubt she can hang. I'd never argue against that. I think she would do around as well as she has against Superman too. Which is why I give him the slight edge of 6-7/10.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And Billy's canonical issues are weird for me. You're talking about First Thunder, right? By Winnick? It's weird because he says Marvel's essentially the third major superhero to arrive in the DCU right after Batman and Superman, but before Hal, Barry, and Diana. And yet, he's still portrayed as a 16 year old kid when he should be at least as old as Dick Grayson. And it doesn't help that his own ongoing and graphic novel and various DC timelines portrayed him as being a new hero debuting quite some time after the "Big Seven". I chalk that shit up to DC's horrible timeline maintainence and needless retcons coupled with their mismanaging of the Marvel/Shazam! Franchise period.

Yup. It was a weird retcon no doubt but IIRC it was explained by time in his city being slowed down or some such and it not being noticed due to the subtlety of magic.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And I'm not knocking Billy being a good kid, far from it; he's been portrayed as being more "pure" than Clark himself for a while, now. It's just that he holds back a lot due to his own personality and CIS, save encounters with Black Adam. Even when he's in danger of being killed, he's holding back. Says a lot about his character and in a good way.

He does hold back a lot (As most high end strength men like Superman, Thor etc. do) but with the Wisdom of Solomon, his experience, and the goal to win, I don't think he'll hold back enough to give Diana the majority. His not going for the kill or anything of the sort mind you.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'll try to find my UU stuff to confirm one way or the other; good showing for Marvel nevertheless as he was holding his own while being injured.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/StealShazam1.jpg

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/StealShazam.jpg

^ From Virtue and Vice, Marvel steals back the Power of Shazam from his family, and that of Black Adam's, whose powers come from different sources albeit similar in properties.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/LassoShazam.jpg

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/LassoShazam1.jpg

Cool. I just don't have it on hand so I can't check. I deleted most of my DC stuff.

The scans weren't needed, I believed you, but much appreciated. Thanks. thumb up

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And the lasso, thanks to Ollie, manages to work on him despite him having all of the Marvel Family's power as well as Black Adam's. He resisted by not saying "Shazam!" right away, but it wasn't enough for the truth factor to be overridden. Based off that, I would say the lasso is going to work on a normal power level Billy or Adam.

I think it's pretty obvious that the level of power Marvel has doesn't matter to the lasso. Based on what I've seen, I think it either fluctuates between writers or if you prefer a more in continuity reason, the more in control Marvel is, the better he resists it. Marvel has resisted it's affects to at least some degree around 3 times IIRC.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
All in all, I would say the argument is whether or not Diana would go for the lasso to use or be able to snare either one of them over whether or not it would work. Considering both her and Superman knows that the lasso has worked before, I think it's incredibly likely that Diana would attempt it and if she grabs either one, it's pretty much a done deal. Actually snaring either one of them is another story.

Yea, I think it's more likely that they would go for it against these two than other top tiers or heroes as I said, but getting it around them will be difficult. Superman will have his hands full with either Marvel or Black Adam, and Diana would need all her focus to hold her own in battle. You could argue the superior team work of team 2 would help but I don't think it's enough for the majority. I think saying she'd go for it 40% of the time is fair.

All in all, we really need a Captain Marvel ongoing. No offense to Diana, but she's been given plenty of opportunities. Too many imo.

JakeTheBank
I agree or at least understand where you're coming from with everything you're saying thus far, Rage.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
All in all, we really need a Captain Marvel ongoing. No offense to Diana, but she's been given plenty of opportunities. Too many imo.

QFT. thumb up

Diana's always going to have a place in DC as she should; she's a mainstay. But phuck DC not giving Marvel the respect he deserves. The guy's been around since the damn forties and is an icon in the industry. Look at all the characters that are inspired or otherwise take concepts of him and use it for their own. The excuse that Captain Marvel can't do well in DC as it "takes away from/threatens Superman" is utter bullshit. I can't remember the last time Superman's titles have been some of DC's best selling ongoings or even that great to begin with.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I agree or at least understand where you're coming from with everything you're saying thus far, Rage.

QFT. thumb up

Diana's always going to have a place in DC as she should; she's a mainstay. But phuck DC not giving Marvel the respect he deserves. The guy's been around since the damn forties and is an icon in the industry. Look at all the characters that are inspired or otherwise take concepts of him and use it for their own. The excuse that Captain Marvel can't do well in DC as it "takes away from/threatens Superman" is utter bullshit. I can't remember the last time Superman's titles have been some of DC's best selling ongoings or even that great to begin with.

Cool. thumb up

It pisses me off. There's obviously a market for the character. Thor being in the Top 10 or 20 every time for the last 5 years alone should be enough reason for them to give him a shot. Like I said, no offense to Wonder Woman, but some of the best creators have been placed on her title (Rucka's being the one I most enjoyed) but her book has usually been bland or mediocre. And every time it reaches a point where other books would be canceled, they place a new creative team, increasing the sales for a while.

When I was a kid, I honestly use to think DC published Diana's comic as a tax deductible or something. Lol.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Cool. thumb up

It pisses me off. There's obviously a market for the character. Thor being in the Top 10 or 20 every time for the last 5 years alone should be enough reason for them to give him a shot. Like I said, no offense to Wonder Woman, but some of the best creators have been placed on her title (Rucka's being the one I most enjoyed) but her book has usually been bland or mediocre. And every time it reaches a point where other books would be canceled, they place a new creative team, increasing the sales for a while.

When I was a kid, I honestly use to think DC published Diana's comic as a tax deductible or something. Lol.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. The phucked up thing is that before we got Trials of Shazam, Alex Ross and Geoff Johns were apparently going to collab and do a Captain Marvel/Shazam ongoing. Considering this was around when GL was starting to explode and Johns was getting more hype - whether it's deserved or not; your mileage may vary - it was obvious that that would have sold like crazy. But Trials of Shazam got pushed instead. I think DC's got this paranoia that if Captain Marvel succeeds or does well it either A.) takes away from Superman...somehow or B.) has to have Superman attached to it to milk off of the rivalry/history of the two characters. DC even has a Shazam message board on their official site with tons of posters clamoring for an ongoing and have for years only to get crappy side stories and Freddy-Shazam bullshit.

I hope Freddy being depowered will lead to Billy getting the Power of Shazam back and beating the shit out of Osiris or something.

Slaanesh
team 1

-Pr-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Team 2. Clark and Diana have a better rapport than Teth and Billy and a greater sense of teamwork. The lasso can also depower the Marvels via asking the name of the Wizard.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, it's ridiculous. The phucked up thing is that before we got Trials of Shazam, Alex Ross and Geoff Johns were apparently going to collab and do a Captain Marvel/Shazam ongoing. Considering this was around when GL was starting to explode and Johns was getting more hype - whether it's deserved or not; your mileage may vary - it was obvious that that would have sold like crazy. But Trials of Shazam got pushed instead. I think DC's got this paranoia that if Captain Marvel succeeds or does well it either A.) takes away from Superman...somehow or B.) has to have Superman attached to it to milk off of the rivalry/history of the two characters. DC even has a Shazam message board on their official site with tons of posters clamoring for an ongoing and have for years only to get crappy side stories and Freddy-Shazam bullshit.

I hope Freddy being depowered will lead to Billy getting the Power of Shazam back and beating the shit out of Osiris or something.

in the recent letters pages, DC has stated that something is on the way re: the marvel family. it could be true, as unlikely as that might be...

Q99
The worst thing is I think prior to the recent revamp, the Marvel family was in a *good place*. JSA mainstay, pretty popular, etc..

But they felt they couldn't just, y'know, use him like that, and instead had to do a shake-up which I guess they thought would make him even bigger somehow?


Wonder Woman's book has been schizophrenic in how it's treated, and suffered from some bad luck (mega-hyped relaunch has the author flake out while delivering a mediocre story that retreads old ground), but the Marvels seem like they were punished for doing well. And Black Mary? Ugh, that's one of the few character treatments that can claim to be worse than Amazon's Attacks (So, here's the deal: MARY MARVEL choses to be evil. Twice. What the heck DC??).

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like I said, no offense to Wonder Woman, but some of the best creators have been placed on her title (Rucka's being the one I most enjoyed) but her book has usually been bland or mediocre. And every time it reaches a point where other books would be canceled, they place a new creative team, increasing the sales for a while.

When I was a kid, I honestly use to think DC published Diana's comic as a tax deductible or something. Lol.

Three things work in her favor: They really are required to publish WW or risk losing the rights, so they'll always give her a revamp before things get too bad. License-wise she's worth far more than most DC heroes (her DVD not only got made but sold well, for example). Better outside comic name recognition, even if the books don't sell great. Finally, even when it's not doing too well it tends to stay mid-tier of books. I.e. even at the tale end of Gail's run (which while critically popular and really good, didn't do well in sales and is a low point in recent years. Ironically, due to hype from the relaunch and big name authors, the crappy runs sold quite highly. And Rucka's run only got up high near the very end and was mostly pretty low itself!), it beat out Teen Titans, Incredible Hercules, Guardians of the Galaxy, Outsiders, etc..

CosmicComet
Cap is doing fine in the animated side of things though. He's probably had more guest appearances on Batman the Brave and Bold then anyone else I can think of. Return of Black Adam was also a good showcase for Billy, even if it was only 30 minutes long. He's also going to be a frequent guest character in Young Justice.

I have faith that DC has just been using the latter to increase the awareness the character outside of actual comic readers--a broader audience basically, and then bring him back to the fold gradually within the mainstream DCU.

I Am Sam Mam
.

ymebada
Superman is Fast. Faster than everyone here. WW is second fastest here. Zeus's lightning powers and depowers the Lightning twins. WW has Zeus's lightning. Game over.

Hyperion Prime
.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by ymebada
Superman is Fast. Faster than everyone here. WW is second fastest here. Zeus's lightning powers and depowers the Lightning twins. WW has Zeus's lightning. Game over.

Her bracers wouldn't depower either of them if that's what you mean.

ymebada
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Her bracers wouldn't depower either of them if that's what you mean. Why wouldn' they? The lightning from them is Zeus's lightning. The very same that causes CM and BA to transform when it hits them. It is the trigger.

quanchi112
Originally posted by ymebada
Why wouldn' they? The lightning from them is Zeus's lightning. The very same that causes CM and BA to transform when it hits them. It is the trigger. Which comic has that happened in to back up your claim ?

ymebada
Originally posted by quanchi112
Which comic has that happened in to back up your claim ? I'm sorry. I thought you were well versed about WW. You seemed to down her so much in the other thread that I figured you knew all of her powers. Zeus gave WW his lightning powers. http://www.amazonarchives.com/Images/ww35p4.JPG

quanchi112
Originally posted by ymebada
I'm sorry. I thought you were well versed about WW. You seemed to down her so much in the other thread that I figured you knew all of her powers. Zeus gave WW his lightning powers. What's that have to do with Black Adam's powers ?

JakeTheBank
It wouldn't depower them as:

A.) The bracers are made from Zeus' aegis, yes, and while connected to Zeus himself, haven't shown anything remotely close to being able to forcibly transform Captain Marvel back to Billy Batson. We have no way of quantifying just how much of Zeus' lightning comes from them and whether or not it would be able to reverse the Power of Shazam spell as a whole.

B.) Zeus has nothing to do with Black Adam and the source of his powers at all. His lightning is from the Power of Aton.

Q99
The Marvel lightning I prefer calling 'Shazam' lightning. Sure, Zeus's lightning is the key component, but it carries the entirety of the enchantment.

The Aegis Lightning, or Zeus himself, wouldn't have the whole thing in short, so it's just a zap and not a depowering thing.

aztec
Clark and Diana stomp!! This is coming from a biased Captain Marvel fan. stick out tongue ... Team two has the edge in strength, versatility, speed, and agility. As Q99 and Jake have mentioned, the lasso can revert CA and BA back into Teth and Billy. Also, Diana and Kal-l, are better team players and have had better showings then either opponent.

TricksterPriest
Didn't they retcon the marvel/black adam family powers to coming from a different set of greek gods, separate from the pantheon? Or is Trials of Shazam retconned out?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Didn't they retcon the marvel/black adam family powers to coming from a different set of greek gods, separate from the pantheon? Or is Trials of Shazam retconned out?

Trials of Shazam is an absolute mess as far as I'm concerned.

I know Black Adam's power still comes from the Egyptian pantheon, and Billy's came from the Greek/Roman pantheon, but Freddy as Shazam had his powers come from the Lords of Magic, who simply shared the titles of the gods/mythical figures they were named after.

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