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No mindf$%king
Just pure "physical" confrontation
Who wins this?

What do you mean by physical?

Because I can't imagine a fist fight between these guys.

It'd be a sweet read though.

Also, was it necessary to give Lucifer demiurgic power?

Lucifer, ftw.

Limitless energy manipulation skillz + limitless powa.

lucifer

Yo.

would Luc even *need* the demiurgic power??




Tazer

Demiurgic is the god's power. I don't see anybody other than omnipotence beings like toaa and presence can defeat lucifer with demiurgic power.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.

would Luc even *need* the demiurgic power??




Tazer Probably not. Even w/o it he would still be capable of warping anything Solar threw at him into.... Well, whatever he wanted.

is lucifer from vertigo (sandman and his own series) the same lucifer from dc (the one spectre met) ?

Yes

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Yes
but lucifer series is non-canon to dc

It's in the realm of the dc multiverse. Death was in Lucifer, along with a cameo of John Constantine. Both who are apart of the dcu.

Originally posted by MrMind
but lucifer series is non-canon to dc
Its murky, recently Gaiman's Death of the Endless appeared to Lex Luthor.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
It's in the realm of the dc multiverse. Death was in Lucifer, along with a cameo of John Constantine. Both who are apart of the dcu.
death in sandman series is canon to dcu because sandman has been referenced in dc , death from lucifer series is non-canon. because the events of lucifer have no references in dcu. elaine became the new god in the end of lucifer series. which in dc clearly not. so do you have any evidence dc acknowledge events in lucifer series?

I meant that Lucifer is apart of the DC Multiverse. Not his actual stories. However, Dan Didio mentioned that Vertigo could be crossing over with DC in the near future.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Its murky, recently Gaiman's Death of the Endless appeared to Lex Luthor.

Yep, and ST might be coming back as well. Along with Constantine and whoever else they want.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Its murky, recently Gaiman's Death of the Endless appeared to Lex Luthor.
I know that, but just because they are the same character doesn't mean the death in lucifer series is canon. lucifer series simply doesn't fit in the dc continuity. dc has never referenced elaine belloc

Originally posted by Galan007
Probably not. Even w/o it he would still be capable of warping anything Solar threw at him into.... Well, whatever he wanted. Couldn't Solar do the same?

I'm not really debating with you here, but how can you explain it not being in dc continuity when we have seen a bunch of characters (including Lucifer) in the dcu?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm not really debating with you here, but how can you explain it not being in dc continuity when we have seen a bunch of characters (including Lucifer) in the dcu?
lucifer exist in dcu true, but why should lucifer series be canon when it doesn't fit in the dc continuity and never got acknowledged by dc.

So, is it like an elseworld's story? And just because they don't mention it, doesn't mean it's not apart of the dc multiverse (note, I said multiverse), because DC keeps on retconning the DC abstract hierarchy. Remember Synnar as he beat down Michael Durmigoes.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
So, is it like an elseworld's story? And just because they don't mention it, doesn't mean it's not apart of the dc multiverse (note, I said multiverse), because DC keeps on retconning the DC abstract hierarchy. Remember Synnar as he beat down Michael Durmigoes.
if lucifer series is within dc, then wouldn't elaine belloc be in charge of dc not presence?

Originally posted by Mindset
Couldn't Solar do the same?
It's a case of This Infinity>That Infinity dur

Originally posted by MrMind
if lucifer series is within dc, then wouldn't elaine belloc be in charge of dc not presence?
Has the Presence appeared in "person" in the DCU since?

Or you know...ever?

Originally posted by MrMind
if lucifer series is within dc, then wouldn't elaine belloc be in charge of dc not presence?

I don't think DC is EVER clear about who is in charge. Also, note that some of the Elseworld stories have been apart of the DC Multiverse. Remember, Batman Red Rain in Countdown and Batman Beyond as well. When Jason Todd, Donna, and Kyle went on a trip around the multiverse.

Originally posted by Galan007
Probably not. Even w/o it he would still be capable of warping anything Solar threw at him into.... Well, whatever he wanted. Are you serious ?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
So, is it like an elseworld's story? And just because they don't mention it, doesn't mean it's not apart of the dc multiverse (note, I said multiverse), because DC keeps on retconning the DC abstract hierarchy. Remember Synnar as he beat down Michael Durmigoes.


When did he beat down Michael?? Don't remember seeing him there in the scans.

Originally posted by kevdude
When did he beat down Michael?? Don't remember seeing him there in the scans.

I believe they showed the Spectre and Michael. Anyway, it was Synnar who created the multiverse, right?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Are you serious ? Have you read Lucifer?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I believe they showed the Spectre and Michael. Anyway, it was Synnar who created the multiverse, right?

From what Synnar said he took credit for it in his story, though we saw God/The Presence talking to Samael, Michael and Gabriel about the multiverse they would create for him. Starlin usually has his stories retconned and this will probably be one of those times it happens (again).

Originally posted by Existere
Have you read Lucifer? Yes.

Quan wrote Lucifer.

Quan IS Lucifer.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It's a case of This Infinity>That Infinity dur

I think Mindset is more thinking in the line of "how can either of them win, if both can just manipulate to a "infinite degree" the attacks the opponent are using?"

Atleast that is what I'm thinking

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes. What did you think of it?

Originally posted by Mindset
Couldn't Solar do the same? Possibly. But it's hard to imagine him warping God's power, against Lucifer's will (as Lucifer's will > all, more or less.) /shrug

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm not really debating with you here, but how can you explain it not being in dc continuity when we have seen a bunch of characters (including Lucifer) in the dcu? Vertigo may be published by DC, but the events of the Lucifer series aren't canon to the mainstream DCU... If that's what you're asking.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
It's in the realm of the dc multiverse. Death was in Lucifer, along with a cameo of John Constantine. Both who are apart of the dcu.

It's not really concrete tbh.

Swamp Thing/Hellblazer/Sandman/Lucifer are all within the same universe, but events have been referenced in the normal DCU from that universe (Dream appearing in Morrison's JLA, Zauriel and MM both talk of events that happened in the Vertigo-verse, and Dream talks of Morpheus' debt to "that little universe", but there're lots of differences which imply they're not the same universe.

Originally posted by Existere
What did you think of it? A good read. I liked Fenris the best out of the entire series and my favorite scene was when Lucy came back to bring hope to the troops only to be speared down by Fenris.

Originally posted by MrMind
lucifer exist in dcu true, but why should lucifer series be canon when it doesn't fit in the dc continuity and never got acknowledged by dc.

It is acknowldged by DC. The endless have met Rao (The red sun of superman's homeplanet Krypton), The specter has fought Michael, and J'onn has met Dream. They're all in the DCU, I think that it's just that they're too important to get involved with the Justice league and the like all the time. I mean, these are archangels and semi-supreme entities we're talking about...

Lucifer ftw

^ Years ago, Vertigo and DC characters used to interact fairly regularly. But in more recent times (mid 90's-mid 2000's) we rarely ever saw any type of interaction between them -- the staff at Vertigo did not want to be associated with the mainstream DCU whatsoever. Current continuity, however, has started (re)introducing Vertigo characters back into the mainstream DCU (Death of the Endless' random appearance was only the start.) If I had to guess I'd say the only reason behind 'merging continuities' is to make $ (DC finally played the "we own you, so it's our way or the highway" card with Vertigo.)

Regardless, the Lucifer series still took place in a completely separate continuity.

Ah, okay. But one thing that confused me, I think it was an arc in which specter was searching for the presence or something and he found Lucy sitting on the beach and talked to him for a while. Was his stand alone arc out of continuity or is the character?

^ Yes, that was Vertigo's Lucifer -- hence why I used the phrase: "rarely ever saw any type of interaction between them."

There were a few other isolated instances within the timeframe I mentioned, in which DC and Vertigo characters interacted (Morpheus' funeral, for one), but those are -very- few and far between. But now we are going to start regularaly seeing Vertigo characters in mainstream DC (which I disagree with.)

vertigo and dc lucifer are the same being

Is that why all but like 1 of Lucifer's appearances are in Vertigo titles?

Originally posted by Galan007
Is that why all but like 1 of Lucifer's appearances are in Vertigo titles? mmm


dur

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
vertigo and dc lucifer are the same being Yes, but his actions in vertigo aren't canon to dc just like darkseid's actions in marvel vs. dc aren't canon in either company either.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Yes, that was Vertigo's Lucifer -- hence why I used the phrase: "rarely ever saw any type of interaction between them."

There were a few other isolated instances within the timeframe I mentioned, in which DC and Vertigo characters interacted (Morpheus' funeral, for one), but those are -very- few and far between. But now we are going to start regularaly seeing Vertigo characters in mainstream DC (which I disagree with.)

Get ready for Lucifer to mkae a come back and threaten the DC Multiverse. Only to be beaten by the combined attacks of Batkick and Superman's heat vision! Brought to you by Eisner award winner, Geof Johns!!

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Get ready for Lucifer to mkae a come back and threaten the DC Multiverse. Only to be beaten by the combined attacks of Batkick and Superman's heat vision! Brought to you by Eisner award winner, Geof Johns!!

Be honest. He might actually be able to do something awesome with Lucifer.

Originally posted by kevdude
From what Synnar said he took credit for it in his story, though we saw God/The Presence talking to Samael, Michael and Gabriel about the multiverse they would create for him. Starlin usually has his stories retconned and this will probably be one of those times it happens (again).

How many times has Starlin been retconned? Because I only know about DOTNG, and maybe Marvel:The End.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Yes, that was Vertigo's Lucifer -- hence why I used the phrase: "rarely ever saw any type of interaction between them."

There were a few other isolated instances within the timeframe I mentioned, in which DC and Vertigo characters interacted (Morpheus' funeral, for one), but those are -very- few and far between. But now we are going to start regularaly seeing Vertigo characters in mainstream DC (which I disagree with.)



Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Be honest. He might actually be able to do something awesome with Lucifer.



How many times has Starlin been retconned? Because I only know about DOTNG, and maybe Marvel:The End.

Well Cosmic Odyssey was retconned then when he returned he reversed and revised it in DOTNG to flow with what he thought it should be. Then in Final Crisis, Grant Morrison attempts to reconcile the Starlin version of the Anti-Life Equation with his own version, by suggesting that the Equation is indeed sentient (as Starlin suggests) and that even after "mastering" the Equation, Darkseid still does not understand the true horrific nature of what the Anti-Life Equation is and its relationship with God/The Source.

Really? Because to me it looked like he completely overruled the idea of the ALE being a sentient lifeform.

From reading the notes in FC: Secret Origins, it looked like a complete retcon.

Well it looks like it was a retcon in the sense that the ALE was the not the opposite side of The Source, we only see facets of the barely imaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation. Another new form of the equation was used against Shilo Norman.

You mean Seven Soldiers? Because the Omega Sanction part is all Darkseid.

It being larger than we can comprehend is cool, as long as the anti-life entity is gone.

Originally posted by quanchi112
A good read. I liked Fenris the best out of the entire series and my favorite scene was when Lucy came back to bring hope to the troops only to be speared down by Fenris.

Yo.

Originally posted by MrMind
I know that, but just because they are the same character doesn't mean the death in lucifer series is canon. lucifer series simply doesn't fit in the dc continuity. dc has never referenced elaine belloc

from wat I remember, both and version of Death seen in the DCU is Gaimans Death, and she *has been seen* in the mainstream DCU, same as Dream & Destiny (I remember Gaiman took issue over Dream showing up in JLA, and Death had met Cpt. Atom or some such.......)

and since Zatanna, P.Stranger, Demon, and a few others have made appearances on the Vertigo stuff, Id say theres enuff to show that theyre connected AND canon.........but theres just NO interaction.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



from wat I remember, both and version of Death seen in the DCU is Gaimans Death, and she *has been seen* in the mainstream DCU, same as Dream & Destiny (I remember Gaiman took issue over Dream showing up in JLA, and Death had met Cpt. Atom or some such.......)

and since Zatanna, P.Stranger, Demon, and a few others have made appearances on the Vertigo stuff, Id say theres enuff to show that theyre connected AND canon.........but theres just NO interaction.




Tazer
some of the vertigo stuff are canon, like sandman.
but lucifer series simply is not. Yahweh took off and let elaine took control of the multiverse. that event doesn't match in dcu.
so yes there's death, lucifer or sandman in dcu. but what characters did in lucifer series are simply NON-CANON. in other words it didn't happen as far as dc concerned

Yo.

ummmmm........last I remem Morrison told the us (thru his run on JLA) that Yahweh/God/the Lord Almighty/da Big-@$$'d Hand Which We See At The Beginning Of Everything/whomever had left Creation and couldnt be found, and thats mostly responsible for the uprising which Azmodel staged to claim power for himself.

so, Id say yur wrong on that.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.

ummmmm........last I remem Morrison told the us (thru his run on JLA) that Yahweh/God/the Lord Almighty/da Big-@$$'d Hand Which We See At The Beginning Of Everything/whomever had left Creation and couldnt be found, and thats mostly responsible for the uprising which Azmodel staged to claim power for himself.

so, Id say yur wrong on that.




Tazer

Nah, Asmodel wanted to succeed where Lucifer failed. There was no mention of God being absent from creation.

Besides, that was written before the Lucifer series even started.

Originally posted by MrMind
some of the vertigo stuff are canon, like sandman.
but lucifer series simply is not. Yahweh took off and let elaine took control of the multiverse. that event doesn't match in dcu.
so yes there's death, lucifer or sandman in dcu. but what characters did in lucifer series are simply NON-CANON. in other words it didn't happen as far as dc concerned

I'm pretty sure Sandman isn't canon to the mainstream DCU, and it's also pretty clear Sandman and Lucifer take place in the same universe (at least imo)- Lucifer as a series only occurs because of events that took place during Sandman, Constantine/Lucifer appeared in each others books and Hellblazer was most definitely in the same universe as Sandman.

I guess it's really personal opinion, but I take Sandman/Swamp Thing/Lucifer/Hellblazer as their own universe which has similarities to the normal DCU.

Lucifer has limitless power; but, Solar has limitless absorption and manipulation of power. Stalemate.

If Superman beats Lucifer DC's completely jumped the shark with him as a character. The Mandrakk thing was hardly bearable as it stands now.

Originally posted by illadelph12
If Superman beats Lucifer DC's completely jumped the shark with him as a character. The Mandrakk thing was hardly bearable as it stands now.

This is Solar ill old pal or am I missing something?

Originally posted by Martial Artist
Lucifer has limitless power; but, Solar has limitless absorption and manipulation of power. Stalemate.

Michael has limitless power; Lucifer has infinite will.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Michael has limitless power; Lucifer has infinite will.

Actually Lucifer and Michael were portrayed pretty much as equals; however, read the thread stipulation.

Originally posted by Martial Artist
Actually Lucifer and Michael were portrayed pretty much as equals; however, read the thread stipulation.

What about my statement says otherwise?

In a pure "physical" confrontation Lucifer still wins. He controls more than just matter and energy.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
What about my statement says otherwise?

In a pure "physical" confrontation Lucifer still wins. He controls more than just matter and energy.

Solar at the end could control everything even magic and Darque energy. Thing is; he was god. It would not be physical.

Originally posted by Martial Artist
Solar at the end could control everything even magic and Darque energy. Thing is; he was god. It would not be physical.

Solar can control all types of energy (and by extensions all types of matter). But can he recall souls back to the deceased? Openly defy the very concept of Death incarnate?

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Solar can control all types of energy (and by extensions all types of matter). But can he recall souls back to the deceased? Openly defy the very concept of Death incarnate?

He recreated a Universe with everyone in it. So I guess so.

Originally posted by Martial Artist
He recreated a Universe with everyone in it. So I guess so.

That's not the same thing. :/

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
That's not the same thing. :/

Isn't it? It means he returned the sould to their own times in Unity. and when he created the Malibuverse from the Valiant verse.

Originally posted by Martial Artist
Isn't it? It means he returned the sould to their own times in Unity. and when he created the Malibuverse from the Valiant verse.

Did he, or was that time travel?

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Did he, or was that time travel?

It had been destroyed and as a Universe is spacetime, we can assume he reconstructed everything. The problem is the definition of a soul. Is it esoteric or energy and is it the same thing in vertigo as valiant. Night mate.

Originally posted by Martial Artist
It had been destroyed and as a Universe is spacetime, we can assume he reconstructed everything. The problem is the definition of a soul. Is it esoteric or energy and is it the same thing in vertigo as valiant. Night mate.

Well then the whole thing comes down to differences in universes, and it's not fair to use those to support one or the other.

Yo.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Nah, Asmodel wanted to succeed where Lucifer failed. There was no mention of God being absent from creation.

Besides, that was written before the Lucifer series even started.

which doesnt make a diff at all, and IIRC God/The Presence being missing was mentioned in both JLA & the _Paradise Lost_ mini.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



which doesnt make a diff at all, and IIRC God/The Presence being missing was mentioned in both JLA & the _Paradise Lost_ mini.




Tazer

Which were ultimately both wrong as God was never in the Throne Room in the first place. He was imbued in all of creation and Asmodel was too stupid to realize it.

Paradise Lost was written two years before the Lucifer series started. They have no connection whatsoever.

Yo.


unless in _Lucifer_ it was said Yahweh had JUST LEFT, the time between the 2 series doesnt mean anything, and the explanation given in _JLA:PL_ doesnt necessarily run counter to wat happend in it.

and despite *all of that*, the characters seen in as existing in both product lines are the exactly the same; DC just like to keep their more mature stuff separated from the generic fluff, but they ARE in the same universe.




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.


unless in _Lucifer_ it was said Yahweh had JUST LEFT, the time between the 2 series doesnt mean anything, and the explanation given in _JLA:PL_ doesnt necessarily run counter to wat happend in it.

and despite *all of that*, the characters seen in as existing in both product lines are the exactly the same; DC just like to keep their more mature stuff separated from the generic fluff, but they ARE in the same universe.




Tazer

Face the facts: God never left the universe in Paradise Lost. Asmodel was ignorant of His nature and believed Him to be the individual ruler of reality (which would necessitate the existence of the Throne Room). Yet when he broke into it God was not there. In fact God was never in the Throne Room in the first place.

Yahweh did not leave at the beginning of Lucifer. Besides, if JLA and Lucifer describe the same events then they contradict each other so heavily that you must choose one or the other. In fact a lot of concepts and places in Lucifer are not reflected in DC continuity.

Yo.

they dont necessarily have to be reflected in the DCU proper; how often was "Sub Diego" referrenced any other book other than Aquaman? how often was _Haven_??

U can believe wat U want, but the characters who existed in the DCU pre-Vertigo are the same that had their tales told under that banner.




Tazer

Lucy

Stalemate.