Maxima Vs Thor

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Newjak
Figured I'd go with the trend this once cause I want to see what people say about it.

Starscream M
Thor

zopzop
Maxima, but it's close 5.5/10.

On paper she has the goods to take the majority but Thor is walking PIS machine.

753
she can win through mindrape. going toe to toe, she loses

Galan007
Really depends how resistant to TP Thor is. If he only has a minor resistance, then he's going to get turned into a vegetable. If he can weather her TP long enough to get some blasts off, his chances of winning are really good.

JakeTheBank
Thor's TP resistance is something that varies from writer to writer, I've noticed. Depending on the circumstance, I see Maxima's TK being more useful in temporarily disarming Thor than her TP.

Galan007
^ True. Aside from her physical attributes, her only real viable tactics in this match are TP/TK. Any of her other energy-based abilities (psi-beams/shielding) would be absorbed.

Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, Maxima's telekinesis manifests mostly through metal manipulation. Unless there's some Adamantium lying around, telepathy is her best option.

753
theres some uru lying arround smile

dianafanww
.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by 753
theres some uru lying arround smile

Mjolnir's enchantment > Maxima's telekinesis I'd wager

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, Maxima's telekinesis manifests mostly through metal manipulation. Unless there's some Adamantium lying around, telepathy is her best option. Mostly, but not entirely. For instance, after being drastically weakened in a previous battle with Starbreaker, Max was still able to telekinetically close massive fissures of earth.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mjolnir's enchantment > Maxima's telekinesis I'd wager

Wasn't the hammer knocked off course twice (at least that I can remember)? Both times I remember it being done by Quasar. Once was in an Avengers issue when they were training. He knocked the hammer off course as it was about to land in Thor's hand and She-Hulk had to snatch Captain America's shield and block it because it was flying around erratically.

Second time was when Masterson Thor and Enchantress controlled Quasar fought. He stopped the hammer from returning to Thor by encasing it in a Quantum bubble.

I'd wager Maxima's TK is at LEAST as powerful as Quasar's blast or Quantum bubble.

JakeTheBank
I don't think she would keep it from him indefinitely, but I do think the TK option would be more sound than TP assaulting him.

Thor for the majority, though. Good fight.

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
Mostly, but not entirely. For instance, after being drastically weakened in a previous battle with Starbreaker, Max was still able to telekinetically close massive fissures of earth.

ya know, the more i see this bandied about, the more i'm tending towards viewing that scene as PIS. it is so far outside the scope of her usual showings that it stands out like a sore thumb. :/

thor CAN be defeated by tp though. if not tp, thor wins.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by zopzop
Wasn't the hammer knocked off course twice (at least that I can remember)? Both times I remember it being done by Quasar. Once was in an Avengers issue when they were training. He knocked the hammer off course as it was about to land in Thor's hand and She-Hulk had to snatch Captain America's shield and block it because it was flying around erratically.

Second time was when Masterson Thor and Enchantress controlled Quasar fought. He stopped the hammer from returning to Thor by encasing it in a Quantum bubble.

I'd wager Maxima's TK is at LEAST as powerful as Quasar's blast or Quantum bubble.

I wouldn't call it that. Quasar blasted Thor's hand, throwing his aim off:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DownsShe-Hulk1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DownsShe-Hulk2.jpg

You are right about the second scene though. Quasar prevents Mjolnir from returning to Eric's hand:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsQuasar2.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsQuasar3.jpg

That doesn't mean Maxima can challenge or overpower the enchantment or anything. Not if Thor wants it back. As you could see, Masterson shattered the construct, and we all know the enchantment > Thor's strength. I'd explain it away as Masterson not being the true Thor (I think there's one more scene where it doesn't return to his hand).

The returning enchantment isn't the same level of power every time across the board -nothing is- but the major consistency from what I can tell is that when Thor actively wills it back, Mjolnir comes back. You'd need Skyfather level power to have any say in it imo. And for good measure:

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I wouldn't call it that. Quasar blasted Thor's hand, throwing his aim off:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DownsShe-Hulk1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DownsShe-Hulk2.jpg

You are right about the second scene though. Quasar prevents Mjolnir from returning to Eric's hand:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsQuasar2.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsQuasar3.jpg

That doesn't mean Maxima can challenge or overpower the enchantment or anything. Not if Thor wants it back. As you could see, Masterson shattered the construct, and we all know the enchantment > Thor's strength. I'd explain it away as Masterson not being the true Thor (I think there's one more scene where it doesn't return to his hand).

The returning enchantment isn't the same level of power every time across the board -nothing is- but the major consistency from what I can tell is that when Thor actively wills it back, Mjolnir comes back. You'd need Skyfather level power to have any say in it imo. And for good measure:

She doesn't have to overwhelm it, just keep it away from her and Thor and I wager she can. Her TK has done some impressive things. Also I remember Ultimo knocking Mjolinir out the air and it failed to return to Thor's hand. He actually overpowered the enchantment.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by zopzop
She doesn't have to overwhelm it, just keep it away from her and Thor and I wager she can. Her TK has done some impressive things. Also I remember Ultimo knocking Mjolinir out the air and it failed to return to Thor's hand. He actually overpowered the enchantment.

Keep it away from Thor? When his willing it back? I highly doubt it. And she sure as hell wouldn't be in any condition to fight Thor while attempting to do it. Her telekinesis has never been Skyfather level from what I've seen. I think she had a decent showing against Starbreaker once though.

That would have to be annual in the 60's. IIRC, the scene was similar but different to the one from Quasar. The underlying difference being that Thor threw his hammer when Ultimo stopped it with his ray and it didn't return (The impossible!). Less impressive than stopping it while in return and it's not a violation of the enchantment. At least not when further developed.

It however should be noted that at this moment, in the Thor series, Thor was fighting the Enchanters who were messing with Mjolnir, and at the end of the story, Thor was bereft of his special powers. I don't recall if there was any acknowledgment of it in the Avengers story but something worth not and would be an easy explaniation. Thor threw some lightning around however.

There is the scene in the first Surfer fight (I think it more closely resembles what she would have to do) but Thor was noticeably holding back and when he actively wills the hammer back, it's superior to his physical strength. Like I said, you'd need Skyfather level power to mess with it's return. Unfortunately, Thor seems to very rarely actually put effort into calling Mjolnir.

PillarofOsiris
I'd go with Thor here 6/10.

TricksterPriest
Given the raw power of Thor's hammer return spell, I don't think she can keep it from him unless she mindrapes him while holding the hammer back.

So...it all comes down to how many times Thor's been mindraped. I know TK and psybolts don't work well on Mjollnir or his shields.

Prep-Man
Maxima will put up a decent hth and powwer fight, but will eventually lose.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Here's the only time I've seen someone trying to use telekinesis on Mjolnir:

TricksterPriest
How powerful is this Sandu guy? And I think Magneto held it with magnetics once.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Crazy powerful. Magneto stopped it in flight using his magnetic powers and once repelled the hammer using a surprise attack IIRC. Unfortunately, halting Mjolnir in flight is at best only a temporary tactic and isn't the impressive part. The enchantment doesn't say Mjolnir is unstoppable, only that particular individuals can lift it and it will return to Thor's hand after it is thrown.

Maxima can use her powers to stop Mjolnir in flight (Depends on how hard Thor throws his hammer of course) and there are even incidents that support her holding it in place after a throw, but if Thor wills it back, it's coming back. She's most definitely not attempting to overpower Odin's magic while fighting Thor. It's a waste of energy. She should just go for the mindrape.

TricksterPriest
Ohhh. So the enchanment that's unbeatable is the return and that only Thor or someone worthy can lift it.

I'd still like some more feats for Sandu.

753
IIRC joseph (magneto's clone) hurled thor away with it too

Rage.Of.Olympus
I can't comment on that unfortunately. I kind of skimmed through the entire Onslaught crap fest.

Was it similar to the scene with Magneto? If so, I don't see the significance of it. Uru is at times a metallic substance so any metal manipulators of a sufficient power level should be able to affect it. That is, until they either start trying to counter act some of the enchantments.

And by affect, I mean move Mjolnir from one end of the room to another mentally.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ohhh. So the enchanment that's unbeatable is the return and that only Thor or someone worthy can lift it.

I'd still like some more feats for Sandu.

That's the idea. The worthy part is the most powerful enchantment and the next in line is the return enchantment. It gets stronger the more Thor wills it. It's directly tied to Thor's consciousness from what I can gather. That would probably explain the fluctuation.

Zack Fair
So it could be a battle of wills between them? Maxima telepathically assaulting Thor could fluctuate his command over the Hammer returning. Then again she will be using TK to keep it away at the same time so it isn't that simple...

Damn I like this match.

Where are they fighting?

TricksterPriest
So she could theoretically mindrape him to stop him from willing the hammer back.

So since you're the resident Thor expert, I know he's been mindraped by Moondragon and a few others, but I also know he's got strong willpower, so what is his resistance to TP like?

Edit: And yes, this is a great match. I can see it going either way currently.

2nd Edit: If she can use her speed, and her TK, and her TP at the same time and physically attack him while she's doing all 3, she wins. But that's a tall order.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Mjolnir has a default setting. Return to Thor's hand when thrown. As it's directly tied to his essence, Thor can further direct Mjlolnir, manipulating it as if it was alive, and increasing the power of the return. That's the basic summary for their relationship.

If she's mindraping Thor, Mjolnir will still return when thrown, unless she can gain mental control over Thor, then try and control Mjolnir that way. But we've seen that in the past when someone possesses Thor and by proxy gains control over Mjolnir, Thor becomes unworthy. Possession =/= Influence. It's all about sentient intent with the hammer. Confusing as f*ck.

I don't think Thor's ever been mindraped by Moondragon. She froze him telepathically in their first encounter, and was able to influence him mentally (I'm not sure if this was because she was unable to control him directly or not. It's been about two years since I read the old Avenger issues), but enough of him fought back to revert to Blake.

Thor's will power is one of the best out there. His telepathic resistance fluctuates and seems to be linked directly to his anger. The angrier he is, the harder it is to control him.

Her best bet is a telepathic assault. If that fails, she loses. She's not taking Thor in a head to head fight.

Yea, that is a tall order. Makes me want to get high end/exotic with Thor. mhmm

Rage.Of.Olympus

Rage.Of.Olympus

TricksterPriest
The only feats I call bullshit on are the Insane Thor from the power gem arc. As for the rest, that is indeed potent willpower.

Also, I don't know if she can go multi-task like that. We need feats for her to compare against Thor.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus



that's what I like about you. you dont just quote or describe scans, you always bring em!

Zack Fair
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
that's what I like about you. you dont just quote or describe scans, you always bring em!

I prefer the good old time tested "lowball everything and ignore any evidence against your argument" strategy.

Johnny Sorrow
Hey Rage, I just read your review (apparently) of the World Eaters arc on the CBR forums. It's that bad huh?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The only feats I call bullshit on are the Insane Thor from the power gem arc. As for the rest, that is indeed potent willpower.

Also, I don't know if she can go multi-task like that. We need feats for her to compare against Thor.

Of course you would.

No one has feats that can compare to Thor.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
that's what I like about you. you dont just quote or describe scans, you always bring em!

Thanks. Nowadays, I just post em, and let people see for themselves.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Hey Rage, I just read your review (apparently) of the World Eaters arc on the CBR forums. It's that bad huh?

Lol, yea. So shit. I don't know how anyone who has read Thor (Besides an issue or two during Thomas' second run) would agree with the characterization at all. I tried to like it, I really did, but it's a waste of money. I can't speak for everyone however. Pick up a copy and see for yourself if you enjoy it.

Hyperion Prime
Didn't Thanos once put up a force field that caused Thor's hammer to just drop to the ground. I am asking because I am not really sure if I am remembering it correctly.

Black bolt z
Maxima 5.5/10.

Hyperion Prime
It didn't return to his hand this time IIRC

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/rave74/773862-thanos_stops_mjouir_super.jpg

Martial Artist
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mjolnir's enchantment > Maxima's telekinesis I'd wager

I've seen Mjolnir lifted by constructs and TK before.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Telekinesis? I've never seen it.

What do you mean by constructs exactly? Doctor Spectrum from the Squardron Supreme once trapped the hammer on the rebound like Quasar while Hyperion attacked Thor. That's Busiek but still.

Then there's the mathematical dude who used Geometry in a scene similar to Quasar and Doctor Spectrum. Unfortunately, Thor willed it back, and he couldn't do anything then.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
It didn't return to his hand this time IIRC

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/rave74/773862-thanos_stops_mjouir_super.jpg

Yup. Stopping Mjolnir in flight isn't against the enchantment. Impressive depending on how much power Thor puts behind of course. Although, I don't understand why it didn't return to Thor's hand there. At least others actively applied their powers. It's not like Thanos did anything besides block himself. srug

Well, there's like a few hundred appearances when the hammer automatically returns, so statically speaking, that's like in the minority.

I think there's enough precedence to assume that Maxima can prevent the hammer from returning on the rebound but she isn't doing anything if Thor wills it back. It seems that the enchantment is more tied to Thor's consciousness than I imagined.

leonidas
and i've asked before--where are scans of max USING this ober tk everyone keeps going on about in a battle? what's her best tk feat during a fight? i've seen the continent thing. seems more and more like PIS to me. does she have anything remotely CLOSE to that anywhere else--in a combat situation in particular? if so i'd dearly love to see it cuz i LIKE max. if not, stop with all the tk stuff....

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