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Who wins between these two, both wielding standard equipment?

First scenario is New York city.

Second scenario is featureless environment

Batgirl wins

Why?

Cass.

Can people please give reason, instead of simply saying cass.....which seems to be a running theme were certain posters........

Cass.

Cass ftw

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Can people please give reason, instead of simply saying cass.....which seems to be a running theme were certain posters........ Originally posted by Silent Master
Batgirl wins Originally posted by Prep-Man
Cass. Originally posted by The Nuul
Cass. Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
Cass ftw

mmm...


































Cass.

Batgirl. He isn't even able to compete.

Originally posted by Konton
Batgirl. He isn't even able to compete.
based on what? Punisher has taken on DD several times, numerous even. To pretend he can't compete with Cassie, is showing complete ignorance of his character and his history.

Typical, you asked DC fanboys for actual arguements and you get trolling.

there isn't going to be any debate in this thread, DDM. it's accepted that Cass is far and away Frank's superior in MA. As far as the gear is concerned... Frank has bullets, so what.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Cass.

Typical MU Fanboy trying to say someone wins and they really don't.

DDD, why'd you edit your post?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Typical, you asked DC fanboys for actual arguements and you get trolling.

You ask a Marvel fanboy and you'll get bias posts.

Originally posted by marwash22
there isn't going to be any debate in this thread, DDM. it's accepted that Cass is far and away Frank's superior in MA.
Tell that to DD champ.

Yea perhaps they may all wish to educate them selfs on who and what punisher is.



Originally posted by marwash22
far as the gear is concerned... Frank has bullets, so what.
You mean machine gunes, knifes, pistols, grandes ect.

His standard gear holds a lot of weapons capable of putting down Cass. Cassi is gunna have a hard time putting down Punisher with out taking a hit. Punisher rountineenly goes head to head with individuals on par with Cass physically but also stronger then her. This idea that she going to completely out class Punisher is simply wrong.

Originally posted by marwash22


DDD, why'd you edit your post?
Because simply calling you a troll was not enough.

Originally posted by The Nuul
You ask a Marvel fanboy and you'll get bias posts.
You more then you DC fans.

y r u mad, brah?

Punisher w/ equipment would roast Cass. Guns>Fists.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Typical MU Fanboy trying to say someone wins and they really don't.
never said he won champ. But it a much closer match then you DC fanboys would like to admitt. Hey chump I battle zone you any day of the week.

Originally posted by marwash22
y r u mad, brah?
why do you insist on trolling?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
never said he won champ. But it a much closer match then you DC fanboys would like to admitt. Hey chump I battle zone you any day of the week.

Stop the name calling.

Don't know much about Cassie, what would her standard equipment be, similar to Batman's?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Punisher w/ equipment would roast Cass. Guns>Fists.
so now punisher wins? can you make up your mind?

Nah.....Batgirl wins.

Originally posted by marwash22
y r u mad, brah?

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/847/hemadc.jpg

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
so now punisher wins? can you make up your mind?

No.

Originally posted by BigSid
Don't know much about Cassie, what would her standard equipment be, similar to Batman's?
naw, she utilizes a lot less. She pretty much has a batman like suit, batranges and some smoke pellets, asside from that she rarely uses anything out side h2h.

This could have been a good debate, but no, instead I get a bunch of DC fans trolling. Wonderful.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Typical MU Fanboy trying to say someone wins and they really don't.

Originally posted by The Nuul
You ask a Marvel fanboy and you'll get bias posts.



Batgirl FTW

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
You mean machine gunes, knifes, pistols, grandes ect.

His standard gear holds a lot of weapons capable of putting down Cass. Cassi is gunna have a hard time putting down Punisher with out taking a hit. Punisher rountineenly goes head to head with individuals on par with Cass physically but also stronger then her. This idea that she going to completely out class Punisher is simply wrong. irony.

perhaps you should read up on who Cass is. She's been dodging bullets of varying caliber for years. She'll close that distance and then it's a wrap. Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
why do you insist on trolling? because i love you, baby.

Originally posted by namorsubby



Batgirl FTW

Where have you been!!

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Where have you been!!

ummm......vacation?

Originally posted by marwash22
irony.

perhaps you should read up on who Cass is. She's been dodging bullets of varying caliber for years. She'll close that distance and then it's a wrap. because i love you, baby.
Irony is the fact you telling me to read up on a character, when you yourself show complete ignorance of Punisher.


Yes so has spiderman, wolverine,DD capt ect. all of which have been tagged by Punisher. This idea that she gunna easily weave in an out of punisher attacks while landing unanswered hits of her own, is simply displaying a complete ignorance of Punisher history of combating high level streets and metas.

Originally posted by namorsubby
ummm......vacation?

In the Ocean?

Honestly take this discussion else were please, it has no relevance to this thread at all

.

none of the people you mentioned are on Cass' level in terms of having the mix of MA skill and combat speed. Cass is listed as human, but her speed is not human. She can KO a room full of people without ever being seen entering. She's too quick for him.

she dodges bullets at point blank range, breh.

Punisher has got guns for godsake. Cass isn't harder to hit than Daredevil, Spiderman or Captain America.

Hell even in h2h she might not win the majority unless you can prove shes better than DD.

DD can take the majority from Punisher.

Ah uh, he haz teh gunz!

Originally posted by Mindset
DD can take the majority from Punisher.

No he can't not how hes been currently written even if he did he wins 6/10.

Originally posted by Deadline
No he can't not how hes been currently written even if he did he wins 6/10. That would be the majority.

Originally posted by Mindset
That would be the majority.

and as I pointed out thats debateable.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Ah uh, he haz teh gunz!

Of course being able to shoot Spiderman etc isn't relevant.

Originally posted by marwash22
.

none of the people you mentioned are on Cass' level in terms of having the mix of MA skill and combat speed.


Yes they are. Wonderful, your ignorance is not just of Punisher, but most all marvel street levelers and low metas.

Originally posted by marwash22
Cass is listed as human, but her speed is not human. She can KO a room full of people without ever seeing her enter. She's too quick for him.
Her speed is human as stated on pannel breh. Whats not human is her ability to utilizes all her abilities at once. Which is what makes her appear meta. Perhaps you like to do some research yourself champ, because clearly your own knolwedge of the character is lacking.


No she not, nor was capt,DD ect.
Originally posted by marwash22
dodges bullets at point blank range, breh.
So has ever character I mention, friggin wolverine dodged tank fire from point blank let a lone bullets.........and dont get me started on spiderman.

Originally posted by Deadline
and as I pointed out thats debateable.



A lot of things are, you also point out he could win the majority.

Originally posted by Mindset
A lot of things are, you also point out he could win the majority.

Ok sure, but you can provide a good case for him not losing the majority. I'm just trying to be diplomatic.

Originally posted by The Nuul
In the Ocean?

No, your mom's house.


Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Honestly take this discussion else were please, it has no relevance to this thread at all

Yeah, soon as you stop trolling my respect threads......


Anyway, Cassie is quicker, a better fighter, and can evade anything he throws at her.....not to mention she has her own equipment. Pretty simple.

Originally posted by namorsubby

Anyway, Cassie is quicker, a better fighter, and can evade anything he throws at her.....not to mention she has her own equipment. Pretty simple.

Shes not better than Daredevil, shes not faster than Daredevil, Spiderman and Captain America, all people that Pun has shot.

Please dont just decide that a character is better just because you like them.

Originally posted by namorsubby


Yeah, soon as you stop trolling my respect threads......


Anyway, Cassie is quicker, a better fighter, and can evade anything he throws at her.....not to mention she has her own equipment. Pretty simple.
not trolling anything, asking how a scan of Batman unarmed stalemating an armed DS is a feat for DS.............





Except she can't. As DD, capt, spiderman ect were unable to. Yet some how cassie going to? Yea it not very simply at all. Maybe it simple if you have complete ignorance of Punisher perhaps, but anyone knowledgeable of both characters can clearly see this is not a simple open and shut case.

by own equipment, you mean smoke pellets and bat-ranges.......yea whoopy.

Originally posted by Deadline
Shes not better than Daredevil, shes not faster than Daredevil, Spiderman and Captain America, all people that Pun has shot.

Please dont just decide that a character is better just because you like them. What do all those people have to do with Cassie being faster and a better fighter than Pun? So he's tagged those people in the past, big whoop. in a general showing Cass is the faster character and the better fighter. fact.

Originally posted by namorsubby
What do all those people have to do with Cassie being faster and a better fighter than Pun?

Being fast isn't enough hes stalemated people with superhuman reflxes and martial art skill. Pun can get the advantage because he has insane damage soak and is a dirtier fighter. Shes better in pure h2h but the gap isn't that great to give her the majority, especially when you can't prove shes better than DD.

Hell it could even be argued that in some aspects of h2h hes better than DD because he can easily tag superhumans without any enhancements.

Originally posted by namorsubby

So he's tagged those people in the past, big whoop. in a general showing Cass is the faster character and the better fighter. fact.

Not tagged...SHOT. It's a fact she faster and better than Cap, DD and Spiderman (obvoulsy in h2h)?

Originally posted by namorsubby
. in a general showing Cass is the faster character and the better fighter. fact.
Niether one of these attributes has caused individuals to remain untouched by Punisher. fact.

So pretending that she faster and more skilled h2h fighter makes her win, is flawed logic. Especially when combating an individual who routinely fights people with the same such advantages plus there stronger and more then holds his own.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Especially when combating an individual who routinely fights people with the same such advantages plus there stronger and more then holds his own.

and in some cases hes at a disadvantage.

She was able to evade DS and jump a few stories up a building. She will evade the Punisher, especially with her body reading.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
She was able to evade DS and jump a few stories up a building. She will evade the Punisher, especially with her body reading.
when? issue and title. I would varify the context of the event myself.


And also how does that equate to her evading Punisher? And landing unanswered attacks?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
She was able to evade DS and jump a few stories up a building. She will evade the Punisher, especially with her body reading.

I don't even think that DS was trying his best.

Q posted the pics a while. It's in her respect thread. He wasn't able to land much blows, even though eventually he would have beaten her. But Punisher is no DS. He has crazy damage soak, but not the healing.

Originally posted by Deadline
I don't even think that DS was trying his best.

Q responded to Srank a while back and showed that he was frustrated by the looks.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Niether one of these attributes has caused individuals to remain untouched by Punisher. fact.

So pretending that she faster and more skilled h2h fighter makes her win, is flawed logic. Especially when combating an individual who routinely fights people with the same such advantages plus there stronger and more then holds his own. lol, no one's pretending anything. Cassie is faster in general and the more skilled fighter. Not because I want her to be, but because she is. The majority accepts this. A pathetic few simply can't come to grips with it.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Q posted the pics a while. It's in her respect thread. He wasn't able to land much blows, even though eventually he would have beaten her. But Punisher is no DS. He has crazy damage soak, but not the healing.

NW did just fine against her. There was also another fight were he wasn't trying his best and Cassie had trouble reading him.

Originally posted by Deadline
NW did just fine against her. There was also another fight were he wasn't trying his best and Cassie had trouble reading him.

Nah, Cass looked the better and it was hardly a fight to begin with. It was brief and didn't show much.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Nah, Cass looked the better and it was hardly a fight to begin with. It was brief and didn't show much.

I don't know about that..anyway..

There was also another fight were he wasn't trying his best and Cassie had trouble reading him.

Doesn't prove shes better than Daredevil anyway.

Originally posted by Deadline
I don't know about that..anyway..

There was also another fight were he wasn't trying his best and Cassie had trouble reading him.

Yes, the TT incident. Like I said before, DS would get the majority over Cass, but the fight would be long. Their first encounter showed this.

Originally posted by namorsubby
lol, no one's pretending anything. Cassie is faster in general and the more skilled fighter. Not because I want her to be, but because she is. The majority accepts this. A pathetic few simply can't come to grips with it.
Here the problem champ. Were not saying she not, were saying it does not equate to her wining. She can and will still get hit. The hits landed on her will be more damaging then the hits Punisher takes comparatively. He has more weapons and items to utilizes and is more often ready to use such weapons and tactics. The fact she faster and more skilled does not mean she wins.

Only thing pathetic is your inability to grasp what were debating, instead of blinding ignoring it, and pretending were arguing things were not.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Yes, the TT incident. Like I said before, DS would get the majority over Cass, but the fight would be long. Their first encounter showed this.

I did an edit.

Originally posted by Deadline
I don't know about that..anyway..

There was also another fight were he wasn't trying his best and Cassie had trouble reading him.

Doesn't prove shes better than Daredevil anyway.

IMO, I think Cass is slightly better than DD, but overall, I call it a tossup. Here are the NW scans.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14005.jpg

Originally posted by Prep-Man
But Punisher is no DS. He has crazy damage soak, but not the healing.
DS has been dropped by bullets while were body armor........Punisher would laugh at such things.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
naw, she utilizes a lot less. She pretty much has a batman like suit, batranges and some smoke pellets, asside from that she rarely uses anything out side h2h.

OK I've been doing some reading on Cassie, I would say that she's faster and better in hand to hand than Frank but her equipment is basic compared to batman and she doesn't seem to use it that much.

She also seems to have a pretty good damage soak of her own from what I read.

So in the New York City Scenario, I think her speed combined with cover and smoke pellets let's her close with Frank and that she can beat him hand to hand, I would give it to her 7/10 based on Frank taking a few with sheer dirty fighting and taking a lot of punishment and refusing to stay down.

Scenario two favors Frank and his ranged weapons advantage, it's going to be much harder for her to dodge and close with him in a featureless Environment, so I would give Frank the majority 7/10 in that instance.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
IMO, I think Cass is slightly better than DD, but overall, I call it a tossup. Here are the NW scans.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14005.jpg
what does this prove?

Originally posted by BigSid
OK I've been doing some reading on Cassie, I would say that she's faster and better in hand to hand than Frank but her equipment is basic compared to batman and she doesn't seem to use it that much.

She also seems to have a pretty good damage soak of her own from what I read.

So in the New York City Scenario, I think her speed combined with cover and smoke pellets let's her close with Frank and that she can beat him hand to hand, I would give it to her 7/10 based on Frank taking a few with sheer dirty fighting and taking a lot of punishment and refusing to stay down.

Scenario two favors Frank and his ranged weapons advantage, it's going to be much harder for her to dodge and close with him in a featureless Environment, so I would give Frank the majority 7/10 in that instance.

I basically agree with this.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Here the problem champ. Were not saying she not, were saying it does not equate to her wining. She can and will still get hit. The hits landed on her will be more damaging then the hits Punisher takes comparatively. He has more weapons and items to utilizes and is more often ready to use such weapons and tactics. The fact she faster and more skilled does not mean she wins.

Only thing pathetic is your inability to grasp what were debating, instead of blinding ignoring it, and pretending were arguing things were not. lol, well I say she wins due to these advantages, and I'm not alone. Seeing as she's the more adept fighter her blows most likely will be precise and meant to disable......especially if she knows how dangerous he is. Her being faster and more skilled equates to more opportunities to land hits.....and she'll make them count.

Originally posted by BigSid
OK I've been doing some reading on Cassie, I would say that she's faster and better in hand to hand than Frank but her equipment is basic compared to batman and she doesn't seem to use it that much.

She also seems to have a pretty good damage soak of her own from what I read.

So in the New York City Scenario, I think her speed combined with cover and smoke pellets let's her close with Frank and that she can beat him hand to hand, I would give it to her 7/10 based on Frank taking a few with sheer dirty fighting and taking a lot of punishment and refusing to stay down.

Scenario two favors Frank and his ranged weapons advantage, it's going to be much harder for her to dodge and close with him in a featureless Environment, so I would give Frank the majority 7/10 in that instance.
This was well thought out and I approve

Originally posted by namorsubby
lol, no one's pretending anything. Cassie is faster in general and the more skilled fighter. Not because I want her to be, but because she is. The majority accepts this. A pathetic few simply can't come to grips with it.

I'm going to try one last time. Punisher has gone up against opponents faster than Cassie and who are highly skilled, her speed isn't enough to give her an advantage. Shes a better martial artist but she may not neccesarily be a better fighter, again the skill gap maybe greater but it's not enough. Otherwise people like DD, Deadpool, Daken and Kraven The Hunter would wipe the floor with him.

Oh and Kraven has beaten Black Panther, a guy who has comparable skills to Cap and is enhanced as well.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm going to try one last time. Punisher has gone up against opponents faster than Cassie and who are highly skilled, her speed isn't enough to give her an advantage. Shes a better martial artist but she may not neccesarily be a better fighter, again the skill gap maybe greater but it's not enough. Otherwise people like DD, Deadpool, Daken and Kraven The Hunter would wipe the floor with him.

Oh and Kraven has beaten Black Panther, a guy who has comparable skills to Cap and is enhanced as well.

So, do you think pun will win in a hth fight?

Originally posted by namorsubby
lol, well I say she wins due to these advantages, and I'm not alone. Seeing as she's the more adept fighter her blows most likely will be precise and meant to disable......especially if she knows how dangerous he is. Her being faster and more skilled equates to more opportunities to land hits.....and she'll make them count.
However you don't factor in the fact Punisher stronger, much greater damage soak and weaponry that can put girl down if landed. You assume this will be straight forward h2h fight when it won't be. Punisher has weapons and he will use them.

Punisher is not subjected to pure h2h, he has range options as well as options with radius attack such as grenades

Originally posted by Prep-Man
So, do you think pun will win in a hth fight?

Yeah I do, the guy held his own against Daken with a broken leg (and other wounds), stalemated a guy who beat Black Panther after going through a gauntlet of supervillains. Hes too tough and its not just hes toughness hes highly skilled. Hell the guy got the advantage over Deadpool.

Shes not tougher than DD why should I give her the majority?


Originally posted by Prep-Man
IMO, I think Cass is slightly better than DD, but overall, I call it a tossup. Here are the NW scans.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanOutsiders14005.jpg

That fight is long enough to show that NW can hold his own or even beat Cassie, that doesn't help your case.

NW didn't beat Cass there.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
NW didn't beat Cass there.

I know, I didn't say he did.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm going to try one last time. Punisher has gone up against opponents faster than Cassie and who are highly skilled, her speed isn't enough to give her an advantage. Shes a better martial artist but she may not neccesarily be a better fighter, again the skill gap maybe greater but it's not enough. Otherwise people like DD, Deadpool, Daken and Kraven The Hunter would wipe the floor with him.

Oh and Kraven has beaten Black Panther, a guy who has comparable skills to Cap and is enhanced as well.

1.Her speed is an advantage
2. Her higher level of skill indeed make her the better figher.
3.Not enough for what? to make her the better fighter? umm, yeah it is.
4.These individuals are not as skilled as cassie, and as far as speed she can hang with them all. Her fights with Slade come to mind....


5. Stop Trying

Originally posted by namorsubby
1.Her speed is an advantage
2. Her higher level of skill indeed make her the better figher.
3.Not enough for what? to make her the better fighter? umm, yeah it is.
4.These individuals are not as skilled as cassie, and as far as speed she can hang with them all. Her fights with Slade come to mind....


5. Stop Trying

1. Not enough to give her an advantage
2. Not enough to give her an advantage.
3. To win.
4. I see so dardevil and black panther aren't as skilled as Cassie? Some of those guys listed are faster, stronger and one has a healing factor better than DS.

Originally posted by BigSid
OK I've been doing some reading on Cassie, I would say that she's faster and better in hand to hand than Frank but her equipment is basic compared to batman and she doesn't seem to use it that much.

She also seems to have a pretty good damage soak of her own from what I read.

So in the New York City Scenario, I think her speed combined with cover and smoke pellets let's her close with Frank and that she can beat him hand to hand, I would give it to her 7/10 based on Frank taking a few with sheer dirty fighting and taking a lot of punishment and refusing to stay down.

Scenario two favors Frank and his ranged weapons advantage, it's going to be much harder for her to dodge and close with him in a featureless Environment, so I would give Frank the majority 7/10 in that instance.

Kraven was using a teleporter when he was fighting Frank, Frank did just fine. I think Daken is harder to fight than Cassie.

Originally posted by namorsubby

4.These individuals are not as skilled as cassie

based on what? Because that BS.

Originally posted by Deadline
I see so dardevil and black panther aren't as skilled as Cassie? No, but that's not important.

This is Punisher Vs. Cassie, Deadline, and she is most definitely the more skilled combatant.

I'm gonna call it a day. Read what I posted again.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
based on what? Because that BS. Pun vs cass BH, don't get off track

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm gonna call it a day. Read what I posted again. you really should.


Batgirl FTM

Originally posted by namorsubby
Pun vs cass BH, don't get off track
then don't make statements that are BS and you cant back up.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
then don't make statements that are BS and you cant back up. I could, if I were debating those matches, but that is not mine and should not be your focus either. This is how debates gets derailed and never end.

Originally posted by namorsubby
I could, if I were debating those matches, but that is not mine and should not be your focus either. This is how debates gets derailed and never end.
No you can't, please make the thread I gladly debate that against you. Because your wrong period.

Originally posted by namorsubby
No, but that's not important.

This is Punisher Vs. Cassie, Deadline, and she is most definitely the more skilled combatant.

It doesn't matter, black panthers skill is relevant because he stalemated a guy that beat him. Lets not pretend it isn't relevant because obvoulsy you decided she was more skillful based on her fights with others.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
However you don't factor in the fact Punisher stronger, much greater damage soak and weaponry that can put girl down if landed. You assume this will be straight forward h2h fight when it won't be. Punisher has weapons and he will use them.

Punisher is not subjected to pure h2h, he has range options as well as options with radius attack such as grenades

Originally posted by namorsubby
I could, if I were debating those matches, but that is not mine and should not be your focus either. This is how debates gets derailed and never end.

Look don't try it. You yourself have posted scans of fights with other opponents than the ones being discussed in the thread. You're just making excuses because you can't prove shes better than DD or BP.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look don't try it. You yourself have posted scans of fights with other opponents than the ones being discussed in the thread. You're just making excuses because you can't prove shes better than DD or BP. lol, Punisher's level of skill does not equate to DD's, Bp's, etc just because he's had a fight with them. Cassie is the better combatant in THIS match. and THAT is what matters. Your ABC logic is ineffective.

Originally posted by namorsubby
lol, Punisher's level of skill does not equate to DD's, Bp's, etc just because he's had a fight with them. Cassie is the better combatant in THIS match. and THAT is what matters. Your ABC logic is ineffective.

Right ok so why is Cassie better at h2h then?

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cassie is the better combatant in THIS match. and THAT is what matters.
except it doesent. Becuase we know simply being faster and more skilled does not equate to winning against Punisher based off the fact we seen how he fairs agaisnt faster and more skilled opponents. Also why do you keep leaving out the fact Punisher stronger, much higher damage soak and has weapons......

Originally posted by Deadline
Right ok so why is Cassie better at h2h then? lol, now you're arguing the fact the she's better at all? seemed to be a given just before.....


you guys are hilarious

Originally posted by Deadline
Right ok so why is Cassie better at h2h then?

Probably because she has "Bat" in her name....at least that seems to be his reason.

Originally posted by namorsubby
lol, now you're arguing the fact the she's better at all? seemed to be a given just before.....


you guys are hilarious

I asked you a question WHY? I said shes a better martial artist already.

hahaha I notice that as well silent.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
except it doesent. Becuase we know simply being faster and more skilled does not equate to winning against Punisher based off the fact we seen how he fairs agaisnt faster and more skilled opponents. Also why do you keep leaving out the fact Punisher stronger, much higher damage soak and has weapons...... weapons which she can and will evade. She has weapons also. You also should know being stronger/more durable rarely holds weight when it comes to a h2h confrontation with cassie. She'll fight smart and hit him where it hurts(nerve strike, pressure point, etc)

*sigh*

Originally posted by namorsubby
weapons which she can and will evade. She has weapons also. You also should know being stronger/more durable rarely holds weight when it comes to a h2h confrontation with cassie. She'll fight smart and hit him where it hurts(nerve strike, pressure point, etc)
again you are assuming she is going to evade all of punishers attacks while landing her own at will is ignoring Punisher entire history against top level streets.

Your pretty much using batgirl at her best and ignoring everything punisher done. You absurdly bias with out even realizing it, which makes it rather sad.



Yea those same nerve shots DD does more often and yet still fails to put Punisher down with, interesting no? But some how the weaker Batgirl is gunna do extremely better?

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
again you are assuming she is going to evade all of punishers attacks while landing her own at will is ignoring Punisher entire history against top level streets.

Your pretty much using batgirl at her best and ignoring everything punisher done. You absurdly bias with out even realizing it, which makes it rather sad.



Yea those same nerve shots DD does more often and yet still fails to put Punisher down with, interesting no? But some how the weaker Batgirl is gunna do extremely better? I'm not using Batgirl at her best. She easily evades all types of weaponry on average showings. She also outmanuevers much faster opponents.

show me where DD has used nerve shots on pun and has failed to drop him? Because i've seen dd drop a 50 class with one, and that indeed would be "rather sad"

Punisher wins.

Originally posted by Deadline
Punisher has got guns for godsake. Cass isn't harder to hit than Daredevil, Spiderman or Captain America.

Hell even in h2h she might not win the majority unless you can prove shes better than DD.
Oh lawd.

Cass punches him into a coma

lmao

Cass.

Define standard weapons on punisher please. Sometimes "standard" includes what seems to be half a dozen grenade launchers strapped to an m16. On top of a SAW several pistols and several submachine guns on his person to a standard assault rifle and pair of pistols.

Frank gets guns lol.

Frank "ninja this" blows the crap outta her.

I'll just... leave this here.

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/th_Elektra_Skill_Punisher_27_18.jpg http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/th_Elektra_Skill_Punisher_27_19.jpg

Originally posted by Deadline
Right ok so why is Cassie better at h2h then?

Well, she has an altered brain chemistry from growing up in a bunker being trained to think in martial arts from birth, giving her superhuman coordination that lets her pull off attacks that are mentally impossible for a normal person, to read people's body to know what they're going to do before they do it, and as a result of the later picks up martial arts as fast as Taskmaster does, which she uses to modify and improve her own style.

DDD's not hearing it. Punisher wins... because Punisher wins.

Originally posted by The Nuul
You ask a Marvel fanboy and you'll get bias posts.

And I'm down with the shit too,
for the stupid mother****ers wanna try and use kung fu,
instead of a mac-10, he tried scrappin,
slugs in his back, yeah, thats what the **** happens
- Biggie

Movin' on a ninja with the speed of a centipede, and injure... any mothaphuckin' contender.

Actually, I think Punisher could very well take this, too. This isn't just some no-named street thug with a couple pistols. The guy has oodles and oodles of experience fighting supers. Not taking anything away from Batgirl, but Frank has the skills, resources, and experience to take a slight majority here.

Hell, he'd take himself out just to guarantee he takes her out with him.

Originally posted by Konton
I'll just... leave this here.

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/th_Elektra_Skill_Punisher_27_18.jpg http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/th_Elektra_Skill_Punisher_27_19.jpg

These scans mean what? Punisher and Elektra are not fighting, his guard is down, or lesser than it would normally be, there is no starting distance that needs to be closed in the scan and to top it all off, Elektra is beyond Cassie so..

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
lmao

Cass.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Actually, I think Punisher could very well take this, too. This isn't just some no-named street thug with a couple pistols. The guy has oodles and oodles of experience fighting supers. Not taking anything away from Batgirl, but Frank has the skills, resources, and experience to take a slight majority here.

I will note that her dad has pretty much the same MO as Frank, and Deathstroke has never scored a win on her. Head to head, he's tried to shoot her plenty without it working, and he's superhuman. Heck, David Cain trained her by shooting at her head with a sniper rifle while blindfolded (her blindfolded, not him).


I mean, maybe if Frank has prep, he's a lot more dangerous with it, but strait fight? Nah, it's hard enough to hit her in melee, but guns point to where they fire before they do to boot.


She also has a tendency to not be too hindered by bullet wounds when she gets them due to being unable to dodge or tanking shots for civilians. Another one of her training exercises involved her being shot in the back, and then having to dodge Cain's gunfire and get into hand to hand. When she was 8.

Plus there's the 'bullet dance' thing she does, where four people fired at her at once, and she purposefully dodged *into* the line of fire of each one before avoiding the bullet... here.

Originally posted by namorsubby
I'm not using Batgirl at her best. She easily evades all types of weaponry on average showings.


Thats faulty logic just because shes evaded all types of weaponry doesn't mean she can dodge Punisher, thats like saying because shes beaten some martial art she can beat Captain America or hell Mandarin. It obvoulsy depends on how good the shooters are.

Originally posted by namorsubby

She also outmanuevers much faster opponents.

Being faster doesn't neccesarily make the opponent more dangerous (there are other factors) and I could say the samething about Punisher.


Originally posted by namorsubby


show me where DD has used nerve shots on pun and has failed to drop him? Because i've seen dd drop a 50 class with one, and that indeed would be "rather sad"

Here.

Originally posted by Deadline
Fourth encounter that DD has with Punisher. Punisher didn’t actually lose the fight and let DD win. First heres the fight.
http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/bobnightfar/th_punwins1.jpghttp://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/bobnightfar/th_punwins2.jpghttp://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/bobnightfar/th_punwins3.jpghttp://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/bobnightfar/th_punwins4.jpg
Ok heres the proof that Punisher let him win.
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5104/punvsletter.th.jpg
Note: DD took advantage that Punisher was lifting a man over his head and pressure pointed him. Despite this Punisher managed to hurt DD badly enough that he had to stop fighting briefly and was actually doing better than DD was before he decided to lose.

and here.

http://img233.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=85269_frank6_122_108lo.jpg

That fight goes on for about four more pages.

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats faulty logic just because shes evaded all types of weaponry doesn't mean she can dodge Punisher, thats like saying because shes beaten some martial art she can beat Captain America or hell Mandarin. It obvoulsy depends on how good the shooters are.


Yes, and David Cain and Deathstroke are really good shooters. We aren't talking bush league here, Cain taught Deadshot how to shoot and Slade is superhuman.

She'd have a pretty good shot against Capt, assuming no shield.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, and David Cain and Deathstroke are really good shooters. We aren't talking bush league here, Cain taught Deadshot how to shoot and Slade is superhuman.

She'd have a pretty good shot against Capt, assuming no shield.

They don't have the feats that Frank has, Cain taught Deadshot to shoot, he isn't Deadshot. They're very good but not as good.


Originally posted by Q99
Well, she has an altered brain chemistry from growing up in a bunker being trained to think in martial arts from birth, giving her superhuman coordination that lets her pull off attacks that are mentally impossible for a normal person, to read people's body to know what they're going to do before they do it, and as a result of the later picks up martial arts as fast as Taskmaster does, which she uses to modify and improve her own style.

*sigh* That doesn't prove she wins I could say the samething about Daredevil, Kraven, Daken and Deadpool.

Please prove shes better than Daredevil, Aloysha Kravinoff, Daken and Deadpool. She maybe more skilled but these guys are highly skilled and enhanced.



Originally posted by Q99
I will note that her dad has pretty much the same MO as Frank, and Deathstroke has never scored a win on her. Head to head, he's tried to shoot her plenty without it working, and he's superhuman. Heck, David Cain trained her by shooting at her head with a sniper rifle while blindfolded (her blindfolded, not him).

Those guys don't have the showings that Frank has with a gun. Daredevil and Spiderman can dodge gunfire blindfolded, they still got shot by Punisher.

Originally posted by Q99

I mean, maybe if Frank has prep, he's a lot more dangerous with it, but strait fight? Nah, it's hard enough to hit her in melee, but guns point to where they fire before they do to boot.

Absolutely. I mean Frank has had no problems hitting other superhuman martial artists in a melee but clearly Batgirl is faster.

Originally posted by Q99


She also has a tendency to not be too hindered by bullet wounds when she gets them due to being unable to dodge or tanking shots for civilians. Another one of her training exercises involved her being shot in the back, and then having to dodge Cain's gunfire and get into hand to hand. When she was 8.

I could say the samething about some of the people Pun has shot, that can be different if its point blank.

Originally posted by Q99
Plus there's the 'bullet dance' thing she does, where four people fired at her at once, and she purposefully dodged *into* the line of fire of each one before avoiding the bullet... here.

Yes that proves she better at dodging bullets than Daredevil, Spiderman, Wolverine.....and Sabretooth.

Batgirl > Sabretooth?

Here's some on her physical stats. Metahuman scientists assume she has superhuman speed *and* strength

Originally posted by Deadline
They don't have the feats that Frank has, Cain taught Deadshot to shoot, he isn't Deadshot. They're very good but not as good.


True, which just means Frank maybe has a shot at getting a shot; they've never actually scored a hit on her without surprise.

They're also much better than Frank in melee, especially Slade.




No, you really couldn't. Those are specific abilities that she has and they don't.

They may have other advantages, but the 'mentally impossible coordination' thing, 'move reading' thing, and 'Taskmaster-style copying' thing are all things they don't have.



It's hard to "prove" it when they're in different universes. She is the best hand to hand fighter in modern DC Earth, though. Better than Batman or Bronze Tiger or even Shiva.

Also, don't those guys beat Frank fairly often? Heck, Daken killed him.




At dodging bullets? Heck yea. Sabertooth's much more overall powerful but he'll take bullets and keep coming, not dance around them.


Here is Cass dodging bullets. These were all fired at roughly the same time in the previous panel. Note how she's dodging into their path. On purpose. Because it's fun.

I don't think you'll find even the likes of Daredevil with a speed feat like that.

Originally posted by Q99
Here's some on her physical stats. Metahuman scientists assume she has superhuman speed *and* strength



Wheres the rest of the scan that provides context and explains she doesn't have superhuman stats? She obvously doesn't have superhuman stats shes not stronger than Batman for starters, hell according to that scan shes equal or superior to Deathstroke in stats she isn't.

Originally posted by Deadline
Wheres the rest of the scan that provides context and explains she doesn't have superhuman stats?

Like I said, they "assume" it

The real deal is she has mentally impossible coordination that puts her aggregate stats in the super human range, even though they are individually peak human. Causing them to assume cybernetics...


I'm not trying to trick you, the point is she has "I can't believe it's not metahuman!" stats effectively due to the way her brain works.


(here's a page in between, just for completionism. Unusual body chemistry, mostly complaining about how the scientist thinks she's a fake)

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats faulty logic just because shes evaded all types of weaponry doesn't mean she can dodge Punisher, thats like saying because shes beaten some martial art she can beat Captain America or hell Mandarin. It obvoulsy depends on how good the shooters are. not really.

she dodges sniper rifle fire and bullets that are shot 2 or so inches from her face. Suffice it to say, it doesn't really matter how good the marksman is.

Originally posted by Q99
Like I said, they "assume" it

The real deal is she has mentally impossible coordination that puts her aggregate stats in the super human range, even though they are individually peak human.


Look they're simply playing with words. Shes not superhuman you can clearly see that from her feats in general. They said her indivdual moves weren't superhuman and that shit could apply to any another peak street leveler.

Originally posted by marwash22
not really.

she dodges sniper rifle fire and bullets that are shot 2 or so inches from her face. Suffice it to say, it doesn't really matter how good the marksman is.

*sigh* Spiderman, Daredevil, and Sabretooth can do that shit as well.

they've done this?:

http://img239.imageshack.us/i/batgirl017179ax.jpg/
http://img239.imageshack.us/i/batgirl017180dn.jpg/

She is technically human, but her feats say otherwise. Dodging bullets from a gun that was basically pressed against your head... that's not something a human can accomplish.

Also, since you keep bringing up Spiderman, DD, etc. can you post a scan or two of Punisher shooting them.

Here is her eyes-closed sniper training as a child.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look they're simply playing with words. Shes not superhuman you can clearly see that from her feats in general. They said her indivdual moves weren't superhuman and that shit could apply to any another peak street leveler.

They said that such coordination was mentally impossible because the brain isn't capable of focusing on multiple things like that.

So no, it specifically couldn't. Not without an altered brain.


And her feats are really crazy, even by peak street leveler standards.




I haven't seen them do that.

Dodge individual bullets, sure. Dodge into the way of multiple bullets in a row for fun, no.


Don't just assume Daredevil or such can do equal.


Also don't forget that more than *just* reflexes, she also has move reading. Of the ones listed only Spider-man has something to let him know before they're fired in a similar fashion.

I don't think she was dodging them for fun, I think dodging one bullet put her in the path of the next, dodging that bullet then put her in the next one's patch etc.

IIRC, there was no dialogue or narration stating that she was purposely putting herself in the path of the bullets.

Originally posted by marwash22
they've done this?:

http://img239.imageshack.us/i/batgirl017179ax.jpg/
http://img239.imageshack.us/i/batgirl017180dn.jpg/

She is technically human, but her feats say otherwise. Dodging bullets from a gun that was basically pressed against your head... that's not something a human can accomplish.

LOL Punisher just did a feat comparable to that recently. Is that it?


You also don't know for sure she moved exactly after they were fired.

Originally posted by marwash22

Also, since you keep bringing up Spiderman, DD, etc. can you post a scan or two of Punisher shooting them.

Go to the capability thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=527917&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by Deadline
LOL Punisher just did a feat comparable to that recently. Is that it? scan? issue?

Also, we weren't talking about Punisher. You kept bringing up the people he has shot... show me one of those characters dodging bullets in the fashion Cass did in those scans.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I don't think she was dodging them for fun, I think dodging one bullet put her in the path of the next, dodging that bullet then put her in the next one's patch etc.

IIRC, there was no dialogue or narration stating that she was purposely putting herself in the path of the bullets.

No, but she was just standing there waiting for them to shoot, not moving until they fire, with a smile on her face, and she's ducking down to get in the way of the last!

She knew the aim of all of them before the trigger was pulled, Cassandra pretty clearly didn't *have* to do it that way

Originally posted by marwash22
scan? issue?

Also, we weren't talking about Punisher. You kept bringing up the people he has shot... show me one of those characters dodging bullets in the fashion Cass did in those scans.

Punisher In the Blood #3. Yea but Punisher is slower than the peoples hes shot, how does that help your case? Stop trying to wriggle out of it.

Its not just about getting shot its h2h as well.


Originally posted by Q99
No, but she was just standing there waiting for them to shoot, not moving until they fire, with a smile on her face, and she's ducking down to get in the way of the last!

She knew the aim of all of them before the trigger was pulled, Cassandra pretty clearly didn't *have* to do it that way

OMIGODZ WOWWWWW!!!1111 BATGIRL FOR THE WINORZZZZ.

No mate she didn't duck intot the path of last bullet, now you're making stuff up. I'm not sure if I should even bother if you really consider that evidence.

You mean this?

http://media.photobucket.com/image/Batgirl%20bullet%20dodging/SaintSaturn/Batgirl13pg03.jpg

Originally posted by Q99
No, but she was just standing there waiting for them to shoot, not moving until they fire, with a smile on her face, and she's ducking down to get in the way of the last!

She knew the aim of all of them before the trigger was pulled, Cassandra pretty clearly didn't *have* to do it that way

Her smiling isn't proof that she was actually purposely putting herself into the bullets path just for fun

Now, if you have something from the book itself that states this, or even an interview with the writer....I'd accept that as proof.

^ They're basically posting scans of feats that any other street leveler could do. It's a joke. Amateur night.

...and you're basically saying "nuh-uh". If every other street level character can do it, prove it. This is the second time I'm asking you to stop talking out of your ass and post a scan of one of the characters you've mentioned pulling off one the feats she has. After you do that, prove the same character is on par with Cass in terms of MA skill... if you can't or refuse to do that, we have nothing further to discuss 'cause hearing "Frank wins, 'cause... Frank wins", is lame.

Originally posted by marwash22
...and you're basically saying "nuh-uh". If every other street level character can do it, prove it.

Thats like getting into a debate with me about Basketball and asking me to prove that Kobe Bryant has skillz. If you don't know you shouldn't even be debating. Here let me help you..


Marvel directory thread.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=487846&pagenumber=1



Originally posted by marwash22
This is the second time I'm asking you to stop talking out of your ass and post a scan of one of the characters you've mentioned pulling off one the feats she has.

You also asked for an issue number and I gave it to you.

Originally posted by marwash22
After you do that, prove the same character is on par with Cass in terms of MA skill... if you can't or refuse to do that, we have nothing further to discuss 'cause hearing "Frank wins, 'cause... Frank wins", is lame.

Maybe but the problem is your so ignorant of comics I'm astounded. You think that by posting scans of Batgirl dodging bullets by random badguys proves something. It's not that I can't provide evidence its just you don't even know the basics. As far as I'm concerned you should go to the Daredevil and Spiderman respect threads and educate yourself.

cool story, bro.

deuces.

^ Serioulsy man I'm not even really being a dick, just check there respect threads. This is street level 101.

So basically anyone who isn't a Marvel Zombie says Cass?

Cool.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
So basically anyone who isn't a Marvel Zombie says Cass?

Cool.

It has nothing do with that. Heres the question why on earth would we think that Batgirl is superior to Daredevil, Daken, Alyosha Kravinoff and Deadpool? I'm confused isn't that a reasonable question?

Why would we think that Cass can dodge Punisher when hes shot the likes of Spiderman, Daredevil and Sabretooth?

All the evidence that has been provided is of her doing things that any street level can do, hell one feat had been done by Punisher himself. You haven't provided any proof or made a counter argument you just assume you know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Deadline
It has nothing do with that. Heres the question why on earth would we think that Batgirl is superior to Daredevil, Daken, Alyosha Kravinoff and Deadpool? I'm confused isn't that a reasonable question?

Why would we think that Cass can dodge Punisher when hes shot the likes of Spiderman, Daredevil and Sabretooth?

All the evidence that has been provided is of her doing things that any street level can do, hell one feat had been done by Punisher himself. You haven't provided any proof or made a counter argument you just assume you know what you're talking about.
Why does she have to be superior to those people to beat Frank if they've all beaten Frank?

in any rational analysis of what should happen between these two, Punisher comes out on top everytime

in comics, where streets can do things like this:

Originally posted by Q99
David Cain trained her by shooting at her head with a sniper rifle while blindfolded (her blindfolded, not him).

cass wins

so, cass wins, but only because writers are hacks

Originally posted by inimalist
in any rational analysis of what should happen between these two, Punisher comes out on top everytime

in comics, where streets can do things like this:



cass wins

so, cass wins, but only because writers are hacks
Because Punny has guns?

To paraphrase a certain movie: he doesn't have guns, he has bullets and the hope that when they're all gone Cass won't be still standing.

After the events of Frankencastle, Punisher got de-aged about 20 years, and prior to his de-aging he was already good enough to contend with Daredevil in h2h and deliver some of the best street vs street fights in comicdom. Anyone who thinks this isn't a fight is delusional.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Because Punny has guns?

To paraphrase a certain movie: he doesn't have guns, he has bullets and the hope that when they're all gone Cass won't be still standing.

i don't get the reference

but generally, yes, and huge amounts of tactical training. anything larger than a pistol should tear her to shreds from far further than she could do anything before she could respond. That bullets travel at 1/1000th their speed when shot at a hero is the only thing that saves her life in this conflict. A city gives her some cover, but it also gives Frank choke points and height.

I suppose it depends on what he is carrying, but basic equip for Frank is generally an AR of some kind. idk, cass could have that "deflects sniper bullets" helmet that Batman apparently has, but iirc she isn't bulletproof

Originally posted by inimalist
i don't get the reference

but generally, yes, and huge amounts of tactical training. anything larger than a pistol should tear her to shreds from far further than she could do anything before she could respond. That bullets travel at 1/1000th their speed when shot at a hero is the only thing that saves her life in this conflict. A city gives her some cover, but it also gives Frank choke points and height.

I suppose it depends on what he is carrying, but basic equip for Frank is generally an AR of some kind. idk, cass could have that "deflects sniper bullets" helmet that Batman apparently has, but iirc she isn't bulletproof
V for Vendetta, c'mon son!

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Why does she have to be superior to those people to beat Frank if they've all beaten Frank?

None of those guys have beaten Pun for the majority and some of them are more dangerous than Cassie. Daken killed pun but he had:

1. A broken leg
2. Gashes on his back that hadn't healed
3. He was suicidal.
4. Traumitized collar bone

He did incredibly well to last that long.