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ROTS, Mustafar.

Anakin in in the zone, the same way he was when he killed Dooku after Dooku had defeated Obi-Wan.

Remember, Obi-Wan knew Anakin's moves inside and out, due to their years of training.
ALSO, remember, that Anakin knew Obi-Wan's moves inside and out, due to their years of training. (Keep in mind always, two-way street)

Double-edged sword, my friends.


Obviously this is an all-out fight.

And the victor?

...And say, that Anakin ends up retaining all his limbs.

We do however, see Obi-Wan, slide to the bottom of the hill, possibly missing limbs of his own, how beard and hair burning off, screaming in agony, rasping, "I should have won.." "I have should have..GAAAAHHHH...IIIIOOOOOOO..."

Pity. Seeing as how Obi-Wan's clothes resemble cotton and wool, which contain far more oxygen then Anakin's clothes - Obi-Wan's clothes wouldn't just melt off, they'd burn so quickly and intensely that he would actually resemble a human torch.

Yes, unfortunately you see, Writer's Fiot wouldn't make an excuse for Obi-Wan to win the duel - Anakin would win it simply because he is slightly more skilled and more powerful, as he actually is, and so would win.

No one disagrees with me?

Ah...well...

Shall we close this with Anakin as the winner?

Did you say something?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Did you say something?

Ah, you answer a question with a question.

Is it wrong to answer a question with a question? Or question that question to question?

In the words of V - "Never."

I buy that a focused ani could take down obi it would be legit tho thats for sure

"teh ZonE" Anakiin wins this, but Obi-Wan is not going down easily.

Originally posted by Ketoshifter
I buy that a focused ani could take down obi it would be legit tho thats for sure

Obi-Wan's victory at Mustafar was legit in a sense that he ultimately was the better fighter.

I get that you mean that Kenobi didn't fight "the best version" of Anakin, and if he did things might have turned out differently. Well, that's just life.

Lucas said that Obi-Wan ultimately had more experience, but that doesn't translate to "being a better fighter". And I know the novel doesn't contradict that; Obi-Wan only manages to survive against Vader for as long as he did becuase of his experience, but pretty much the entire fight, Kenobi was at a disadvantage and being pushed back.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
but pretty much the entire fight, Kenobi was at a disadvantage and being pushed back.

Lucien, actually, "With every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground, it was his way."

And then he controlled the location of the entire fight. I agree with most of your argument, just not your last sentence.

Originally posted by truejedi
Lucien, actually, "With every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground, it was his way."

And then he controlled the location of the entire fight. I agree with most of your argument, just not your last sentence. Woah woah woah--we are not doing this again. I remember about... half a year ago(ish), I decided to qualify that stance of yours and discovered in the novel that Obi-Wan had very little advantage or foresight in that duel. Giving ground is not the same as controlling the fight's direction. Anakin was beating him back and came close to killing him a few times. Obi was just scraping by.

Please, please! don't make me go digging through that chapter again.

How do you quantify "in the zone"ness now? I'm curious.

Wait, I think I hear "full potential" Anakin racing into this thread along with "Sidious if he were black". Speculation time!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Woah woah woah--we are not doing this again. I remember about... half a year ago(ish), I decided to qualify that stance of yours and discovered in the novel that Obi-Wan had very little advantage or foresight in that duel. Giving ground is not the same as controlling the fight's direction. Anakin was beating him back and came close to killing him a few times. Obi was just scraping by.

Please, please! don't make me go digging through that chapter again.

you tried for a very long time to weasel around the very clear text, i do remember that. You never actually did though, the novel is pretty clear.

Originally posted by truejedi
you tried for a very long time to weasel around the very clear text, i do remember that. You never actually did though, the novel is pretty clear. I just read through it again. It's shorter than I remember. Anakin was winning every step of the way until Kenobi reversed his mechanical hand. Anakin recovered from that in time to almost break Obi's wrists. And then Obi decides they should both go out in to the lava. And then he thinks Anakin dies. And then he tricked Anakin at the end by jumping past him.


That's where Kenobi won and had the advantage. The rest of the duel, Anakin was kicking his ass.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I just read through it again. It's shorter than I remember. Anakin was winning every step of the way until Kenobi reversed his mechanical hand. Anakin recovered from that in time to almost break Obi's wrists. And then Obi decides they should both go out in to the lava. And then he thinks Anakin dies. And then he tricked Anakin at the end by jumping past him.


That's where Kenobi won and had the advantage. The rest of the duel, Anakin was kicking his ass.

onscreen it appears that way, sure. but in the novel it tells a different tale.

My point isn't what the ultimate result was. It's the misconception that Obi-Wan was "controlling" or "leading" the fight, as if it were a dance. The film shows him simply reacting to Anakin's onslaught, which he did. But not with some foresight or greater plan driving him. The novel states that outside was where they should go, as the Force told him or whatever.

That's about it. It's all from Kenobi's perspective and he has two epiphanies throughout--one about how much he love Anakin and the other about letting go. But during the actual combat, Anakin was very clearly the dominant force. He was manipulating, aiming, and pulling the triggers of the rifles of the soldiers he'd killed. Obi-Wan just barely caught the bolts and sent them back at Anakin (an act of "desperation", and Anakin easily, "contemptuously" deflected them. He was sent hurling in to the far wall with a Force push (and only survived because of his "one last trick" and then proceeded to be manhandled by Anakin, who almost broke his arms off.


Combat-wise that's where all the specific stuff stops. It become a general narrative of the outdoor scene, with neither holding any advantage. The last part has Obi-Wan spear-diving at Anakin, who easily dodges it and curses that he let Obi-Wan trick him in to reaching the shoreline.



The duel is comparatively one-sided. Obi-Wan would have died very early on if Anakin was his lucid "z0ne" self. He wasn't "directing" the fight, he was simply reacting to opportune moments (he seems to excel at that). But straight out combat? Nuh uh. RotS Vader>>Obi-Wan.




That's the novel's narrative anyway. It doesn't include the Force-stalemate and has far more pro-Anakin fight scenes. The movie displays a more even duel. So what do we pick? The extrapolated narrative, or the more-open-to-interpretation-but-higher-canon-movie?

Ah good memories.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Ah good memories. Is Magic Moments inexplicably playing in the background for you too?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Is Magic Moments inexplicably playing in the background for you too?

Well now it is. Thanks a lot.

"Standing in line to see the show tonight and there's a light on, heavy glow..."

No wait, that's not it.


Wrong song, Slash. Godammit.

Peppers aren't even lyrically amazing. The girl who wrote this is a top lyrical poet:

Yesterday was Thursday, Thursday
Today i-is Friday, Friday (Partyin')
We-we-we so excited
We so excited
We gonna have a ball today

Tomorrow is Saturday
And Sunday comes after ... wards
I don't want this weekend to end

wait, your argument is that the NOVEL makes Anakin look better than the movie? Really?

Originally posted by truejedi
wait, your argument is that the NOVEL makes Anakin look better than the movie? Really?


Like this you mean?

Originally posted by truejedi
onscreen it appears that way, sure. but in the novel it tells a different tale.

So, you're saying that the NOVEL makes Kenobi look better than the movie?

It's more than apparent that Anakin, with his aggressive onslaught was the more impressive of the two. However, because of Kenobi's resourcefulness, he was able to find a way to prolong the duel until the time arose in which he could capitalize on Anakin's mistake.

A good analogy would be that of a young Mike Tyson and a Muhammad Ali (circa the George Foreman fight). Tyson was undoubtedly the far more impressive fighter, but put those two in the ring, and Ali might very well prevail. Tyson was stronger, faster, hit MUCH harder, was far more aggressive, had insanely good elusiveness, but may have lost due to the one key factor; resourcefulness.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Peppers aren't even lyrically amazing. The girl who wrote this is a top lyrical poet:

Yesterday was Thursday, Thursday
Today i-is Friday, Friday (Partyin')
We-we-we so excited
We so excited
We gonna have a ball today

Tomorrow is Saturday
And Sunday comes after ... wards
I don't want this weekend to end

The black pedophile makes that song. Anyways I wonder what would have happened had she got on the bus. I figure she probably would have a heart attack choosing a seat.

Originally posted by truejedi
wait, your argument is that the NOVEL makes Anakin look better than the movie? Really? I don't get the sports metaphor but Takai said well. Danke.



Anakin's was the dominant combative force by far, (more "powerful" but it was Kenobi's "experience" as Lucas called it, that enabled him to survive for as long as he did. In a straight up fight with Zoney Anakin, Kenobi will fall, hard.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't get the sports metaphor but Takai said well. Danke.



Anakin's was the dominant combative force by far, (more "powerful" but it was Kenobi's "experience" as Lucas called it, that enabled him to survive for as long as he did. In a straight up fight with Zoney Anakin, Kenobi will fall, hard.

I'm not denying that Kenobi will lose to THEZONE Anakin, but in a normal fight, where Anakin isn't so ridiculously focused (Zone anakin would probably off Yoda or sidious too) then Kenobi is going to win.

But regardless, the novel makes Kenobi out to be better than he appears in the movie, i'm confused, because you seemed to make the opposite argument, that Kenobi looked better in the movie than in the novel?

I so should have had one more drink tonight.... I stopped one too soon.

Originally posted by truejedi
I'm not denying that Kenobi will lose to THEZONE Anakin, but in a normal fight, where Anakin isn't so ridiculously focused (Zone anakin would probably off Yoda or sidious too) then Kenobi is going to win.

But regardless, the novel makes Kenobi out to be better than he appears in the movie, i'm confused, because you seemed to make the opposite argument, that Kenobi looked better in the movie than in the novel?

I so should have had one more drink tonight.... I stopped one too soon. Evidently.


I'll summarize: In the movie, they were about even. Anakin's more aggressive, but Obi-Wan holds his own very well.

In the novel: Anakin is superior, through and through. Obi-Wan survives two near fatal moments because of one trick and one epiphany. If not for those, the duel would never have made it outside.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien


In the novel: Anakin is superior, through and through. Obi-Wan survives two near fatal moments because of one trick and one epiphany. If not for those, the duel would never have made it outside.

no way. We didn't read the same novel. I read The Revenge of the Sith by Mathhew Stover.

I just read the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel in Revenge of the Sith by Matthew Stover.


Again.

okay, your matthew stover has two t's. My drunken haze Matthew stover is spelleed slightly differently. That makes sense now, I knew we could n't have read a discripting of the same fight,.

Is yours that one that has Obi-Wan and Yoda tripping out on some bad acid at the end and they think they're talking to Qui-Gon's ghost or something?

Lol those crazy parodies.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Is yours that one that has Obi-Wan and Yoda tripping out on some bad acid at the end and they think they're talking to Qui-Gon's ghost or something?

Lol those crazy parodies.

Which parody is that?

The... good one. Shut up.