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Well?

How good is her damage soak, does Pun get guns? Pun has guns she loses, comparable damage soak to DD she loses.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/motorhead069/AndHereWeGo.gif

Yo.

not. she could cripple him WITHOUT beating on him, so that dmg-soak means nothing.




Tazer

I'm staying out of this one.

Let the shit storm...COMMENCE!

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.

not. she could cripple him WITHOUT beating on him, so that dmg-soak means nothing.




Tazer

Thats funny punisher was already crippled before he fought Daken and he did just fine, hes also resisted pressure points from DD and you're assuming she can easily do it.

Full arsenal, Punisher. H2H Shiva has the edge, unless Rucka acknowledge Frank has been de-aged 20 years and gives him a noticeable upgrade.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Full arsenal, Punisher. H2H Shiva has the edge, unless Rucka acknowledge Frank has been de-aged 20 years and gives him a noticeable upgrade.

Thats pretty reasonable but I still think he can get a small majority h2h. Hes already had an 'upgrade'

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats pretty reasonable but I still think he can get a small majority h2h. Hes already had an 'upgrade'

I can't fault you for that. Shiva's reputation is precarious at best, other than some flimsy retcon's of her wrecking a mind controlled BT and League of Assassins, her legacy is largely hearsay and circular logic.

^ You mean like Ogun's legacy? ermmhappy

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I can't fault you for that. Shiva's reputation is precarious at best, other than some flimsy retcon's of her wrecking a mind controlled BT and League of Assassins, her legacy is largely hearsay and circular logic.

She killed Katana in a pretty one-sided battle. She wrecked Shadowdragon, who gave Superman fits. She trained Batman and was his acknowledged superior in HtH. In the latest Richard Dragon mini, she killed Dragon, as well as easily killed a collection of martial artists who were giving Nightwing, Bronze Tiger, and Dragon major trouble. She took down Connor Hawke in their famous battle. She killed Catwoman's master easily, and beat Catwoman with one hand casually. Has a habit of owning Nightwing. Also the Question's gotten his tail handed to him by her more than once. Shatters Killer Croc's bones so fast he doesn't know what's going on.


You seem to underestimate DC's martial artists in general.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You mean like Ogun's legacy? ermmhappy

I'm sure you've found out by now, but Srank's position on DC/Marvel martial artists is filled with bias and arbitrary, hypocritical "logic."

Originally posted by Q99
She killed Katana in a pretty one-sided battle. She wrecked Shadowdragon, who gave Superman fits. She trained Batman and was his acknowledged superior in HtH. In the latest Richard Dragon mini, she killed Dragon, as well as easily killed a collection of martial artists who were giving Nightwing, Bronze Tiger, and Dragon major trouble. She took down Connor Hawke in their famous battle. She killed Catwoman's master easily, and beat Catwoman with one hand casually. Has a habit of owning Nightwing. Also the Question's gotten his tail handed to him by her more than once. Shatters Killer Croc's bones so fast he doesn't know what's going on.


You seem to underestimate DC's martial artists in general.

Katana also came back and stalemated her, and Katana is a C-List fighter. That's like bragging about beating Shatterstar... only Shatterstar is also superhuman across the board, so that holds more weight.

Shadow Dragon was stated to be faster than Superman. Either Superman jobbed to him, or he jobbed to Shiva.

She re-trained Batman after Knightfall when he lost his skills, she was never acknowledge as being superior but it was said she "might" be.

Chuck Dixon's Richard Dragon series doesn't fit into continuity.

Other than hold his own against Shiva, what has Connor done? He beat Silver Monkey who was allegedly "second to Shiva," but had never done anything.

She killed the Armless Master... awesome?

Catwoman is even lower on the rung of fighters than Katana.

She hasn't fought Nightwing in years, he used to be pretty much useless. He couldn't even touch Bruce in a fight unless he was allowed.

The events in Batgirl recton'd Shiva's history with Dragon, Tiger and the Question, and Vic was never close to Batman level to begin with. Also she couldn't compete with Black Lantern Question in h2h even with Renee's help.

She did break Crocs arm before he could notice, but it's not like Croc is the Lizard or anything. He has barely superhuman strength and his durability is inconstant.

Yo.

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats funny punisher was already crippled before he fought Daken and he did just fine, hes also resisted pressure points from DD and you're assuming she can easily do it.

so Daken is now considered a top martial artist??

didnt know that........




Tazer

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You mean like Ogun's legacy? ermmhappy

Ogun was established as being superior to Wolverine, he worked Logan over pretty effortlessly and only lost eventually due to Wolverine's healing factor and berserker rage. That's not hearsay or circular logic... it's fact.

what is the setting?

Originally posted by inimalist
what is the setting? doesn't matter, if Frank doesn't have guns, this is a mugging.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Ogun was established as being superior to Wolverine, he worked Logan over pretty effortlessly and only lost eventually due to Wolverine's healing factor and berserker rage. That's not hearsay or circular logic... it's fact. So, basically, Ogun losing to Wolverine is supposed to place him at the highest levels of martial artists...

... while Shiva matching/beating all sorts of skilled foes is supposed to place her below the highest level of martial artists.

They were supposed to take place before said events, and BN Question establishes the history is still in place.



Both of his legs (one comminuted, i.e. where the bone has been broken into multiple places) and one arm.


Anyway, it's pretty clear your standards are well of the double variety.

Originally posted by marwash22
doesn't matter, if Frank doesn't have guns, this is a mugging.

where does it say no guns?

Originally posted by inimalist
where does it say no guns? where did i say he didn't have guns. I was saying that the more important question is... does he have guns? the setting is irrelevant.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So, basically, Ogun losing to Wolverine is supposed to place him at the highest levels of martial artists...

... while Shiva matching/beating all sorts of skilled foes is supposed to place her below the highest level of martial artists.

Ogun is on the highest level of martial artists because he demonstrated the ability to completely dominate Wolverine in melee combat. If Lady Shiva spent her exchanges with Batman effortlessly working him over, before losing to a piece of Batman's equipment that would be one thing... but that's not what happens. She holds her own with Bruce in brief exchanges that aren't allowed to play out to the natural conclusion. In current continuity Shiva doesn't really have any conclusive wins over anyone significant.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Ogun is on the highest level of martial artists because he demonstrated the ability to completely dominate Wolverine in melee combat. If Lady Shiva spent her exchanges with Batman effortlessly working him over, before losing to a piece of Batman's equipment that would be one thing... but that's not what happens. She holds her own with Bruce in brief exchanges that aren't allowed to play out to the natural conclusion. In current continuity Shiva doesn't really have any conclusive wins over anyone significant. Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So, basically, Ogun losing to Wolverine is supposed to place him at the highest levels of martial artists...

... while Shiva matching/beating all sorts of skilled foes is supposed to place her below the highest level of martial artists.

Originally posted by marwash22
where did i say he didn't have guns. I was saying that the more important question is... does he have guns? the setting is irrelevant.

I assumed standard equip, but figured them starting 100m from eachother in an undifferentiated landscape would bias too much in favor of Pun

standard forum rules, its 2 or 3 bursts from an AR to end it as Shiva tries to close the gap

Originally posted by Q99
They were supposed to take place before said events, and BN Question establishes the history is still in place.



Both of his legs (one comminuted, i.e. where the bone has been broken into multiple places) and one arm.


Anyway, it's pretty clear your standards are well of the double variety.

The recton's in Batgirl don't allow for her history with Vic. She never met O-Sensei, or went after Dragon to avenge her sister and subsequently never teamed up with Dragon and Bronze Tiger, which lead to her meeting Vic. BN shows she still has a history with Vic Sage, but it would have to be different that the one we know to fit into continuity.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0


So you are just going to ignore what I said? Awesome.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
So you are just going to ignore what I said? Awesome. I get it. Ogun is an amazing martial artist because he beat Wolverine. Wolverine is an amazing martial artist because he beat Ogun.

It's like square logic- no wait... rectangular logic- no... trapezoid logic??? mmhm

Hmmm... mhmm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I get it. Ogun is an amazing martial artist because he beat Wolverine. Wolverine is an amazing martial artist because he beat Ogun.

It's like square logic- no wait... rectangular logic- no... trapezoid logic??? mmhm

Hmmm... mhmm

Because Ogun is the only character Wolverine has ever fought. dur

Shiva.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because Ogun is the only character Wolverine has ever fought. dur Well... as you've cited in the past, Ogun fought Miyamoto Musashi off-panel. On-panel, Wolverine is the only character that Ogun has ever fought. And you measure both of their proficiencies based on his reputation with Musashi or their fights with each other... so hearsay and circular logic, basically.

Exactly Kinda like Shingen.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because Ogun is the only character Wolverine has ever fought.

This is... really ironic considering your arguments about Shiva.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



so Daken is now considered a top martial artist??

didnt know that........




Tazer

He isn't but he has super sharp claws a healing factor and superhuman stats. Spiderman isn't a top martial artist either.....see where I'm going with this.

Originally posted by Deadline
He isn't but he has super sharp claws a healing factor and superhuman stats. Spiderman isn't a top martial artist either.....see where I'm going with this.
His stats aren't much compared to Spider-Man, don't kid yourself.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
His stats aren't much compared to Spider-Man, don't kid yourself. his hf is better and he's more skilled fighter

Originally posted by Starscream M
his hf is better and he's more skilled fighter
I'm not debating HF or skill. Deadline said Daken had HF AND superhuman stats, I was pointing out that Spider-Man's stats are much more impressive than Daken's.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm not debating HF or skill. Deadline said Daken had HF AND superhuman stats, I was pointing out that Spider-Man's stats are much more impressive than Daken's. ok, I see.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
His stats aren't much compared to Spider-Man, don't kid yourself.

You kinda completely missing the point, and the only stat that is much greater is his strength anyway.

Yo.

Originally posted by Deadline
He isn't but he has super sharp claws a healing factor and superhuman stats. Spiderman isn't a top martial artist either.....see where I'm going with this.

yes, and Im sure he's *never* been out-fought by anybody w/o superhuman stats............see where *Im* going w/this?




Tazer

Originally posted by marwash22
where did i say he didn't have guns. I was saying that the more important question is... does he have guns? the setting is irrelevant. the punisher without guns is like cyclops without eyes.

frank castle wipes his ass with a glock son (no homo)

h2h she stomps him

with his arsenal he kills her from afar