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Frieza vs ALL of the Namkien race and all of the saiyan race (excluding Goku, Trunks, Gohun, Vegeta) that was on the bardock saga... the entire planet full of Saiyans.

They are aware Freiza is on the planet and everyone has gathered around to confront him (everyone is transported to planet Namek).

Frieza can not destroy the planet and every 30 minutes that past he is reverted down to a lesser form. He starts off at his most powerful form... 30 minutes pass he goes down to his next form.

Can he win this?

Yea he wins because even his base form was too much for them so i know hes gonna have them all wiped out in about 30min

Freeza would utterly wreck them. Even in a hand to hand contest he would be killing people without effort left and right evenin his base form.

Wouldn't a group of elite class saiyans transformed into oozarus give Frieza's base form at least a little trouble though?

Maybe if he was wiped out on energy otherwise probably not.

Vegeta was considered exceptionally strong even compared to the elite, at 18,000 in power level. In Oozaru form, he reaches 180,000 compared to Freeza's 580,000.

Nappa is considered a Saiyan elite at 4,000. Reaching 40,000 transformed. Aka as strong as Recoome, Burter, or Jeice.

Freeza even in base would be too fast, strong, durable, and powerful to be inconvenienced by the Saiyans even in Oozaru form, especially considering taking them out of it is simple.

I doubt he can kill them all in the time, so, mainly this will be his base form... as much as i hate using power levels to determine a fight, that seems like the best bet for this kind of analysis.

Freeza's base form = 530,000.

10,000 was EXTREMELY HIGH for Saiyan warriors during Bardock's time; Bardock achieving 10,000 meant that he was almost at the level of King Vegeta and his elites. So, the highest Saiyan will just be a little over 10,000.

Nail was the strongest Namekian by far and had 42,000... the other Namekian warriors are not even close to him in power, they were killed by Dodoria so are probably below 22,000 significantly... 10,000 seems like a good estimate for them as well. Non-warrior Namekians really have no fighting power of significance. As we saw 42,000 is simply not enough to damage Frieza at all, so, no matter how many namekians there are, it means little.

Absolute best case scenario and the saiyans use power-ball, we have a handful of 100,000ish Oozaru vs 530,000 Frieza... I guess they could potentially win, but, i wouldn't bet on it.

Bottom line, Frieza's best day ever!

Originally posted by carver9
Frieza can not destroy the planet and every 30 minutes that past he is reverted down to a lesser form. He starts off at his most powerful form... 30 minutes pass he goes down to his next form. Wow, I would have given Frieza the win in his base form. In his most powerful form, 30mins would be more than enough to collectively trounce the Saiyans/Namekians with a fair amount of ease. Imo.

I could see having to go to second form against all the Oozaru, but past that is unneeded.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I doubt he can kill them all in the time, so, mainly this will be his base form... as much as i hate using power levels to determine a fight, that seems like the best bet for this kind of analysis.

Freeza's base form = 530,000.

10,000 was EXTREMELY HIGH for Saiyan warriors during Bardock's time; Bardock achieving 10,000 meant that he was almost at the level of King Vegeta and his elites. So, the highest Saiyan will just be a little over 10,000.

Nail was the strongest Namekian by far and had 42,000... the other Namekian warriors are not even close to him in power, they were killed by Dodoria so are probably below 22,000 significantly... 10,000 seems like a good estimate for them as well. Non-warrior Namekians really have no fighting power of significance. As we saw 42,000 is simply not enough to damage Frieza at all, so, no matter how many namekians there are, it means little.

Absolute best case scenario and the saiyans use power-ball, we have a handful of 100,000ish Oozaru vs 530,000 Frieza... I guess they could potentially win, but, i wouldn't bet on it.

I don't think flying around the planet would be an issue. Especially since we have the ginyu force landing on one side of the planet Namek (which was twice the size of earth) and making it to Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohun in no time at all.

Then we have THIS scene...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=bBnTy8pl5AU

Vegeta threw the Dragonball some miles away, Burta jumped up and flew to get the dragonball but he did it at a pace so fast that the world stood still. I don't know how fast you have to be for the world to completely stop around you but what I do know is that Burta speed pails in comparison to the Goku he fought. Goku himself admitted this along with Jeice. Then if you add on the fact that final form Frieza was significally much faster than Goku who is faster than Jeice... flying around a planet killing of saiyans at super speed should be childs play IMO.

He does have the fire power to kill them BUT the transformations could be a problem for him if it makes each saiyan 10 times stronger.

I wonder if all of them shot a combined blast at frieza, would it stop him? Remember, Goku had a PL of 10 or 15 thousand and during his fight with Vegeta, he had enough power to shed a planet (Vegeta did also). I wonder if a couple of combine blast in that range could drop frieza if they were to successfully get the attack to hit?

Ok, there are a few things that COULD be a POTENTIAL win for the superhumans. They would have to have this all planned out, but one thing they could do is just have the nameks healing all the sayans who get happen to not die, giving them a boost in power, though this likely wouldn't work enough to actually beat him. Another thing they could do, and I think this is their best chance, all the sayans go Ozaru and keep frieza busy/hide the nameks (cuz they are so huge ) then ALL the nameks fuse together into one person I'm not sure how many nameks it would take, or how many there actually are, but this seems like their best chance.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Ok, there are a few things that COULD be a POTENTIAL win for the superhumans. They would have to have this all planned out, but one thing they could do is just have the nameks healing all the sayans who get happen to not die, giving them a boost in power, though this likely wouldn't work enough to actually beat him. Another thing they could do, and I think this is their best chance, all the sayans go Ozaru and keep frieza busy/hide the nameks (cuz they are so huge ) then ALL the nameks fuse together into one person I'm not sure how many nameks it would take, or how many there actually are, but this seems like their best chance.
I'd say this would be a plausible way to win, but with him starting off at his final form I don't know that this would make that big of a difference.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Ok, there are a few things that COULD be a POTENTIAL win for the superhumans. They would have to have this all planned out, but one thing they could do is just have the nameks healing all the sayans who get happen to not die, giving them a boost in power, though this likely wouldn't work enough to actually beat him. Another thing they could do, and I think this is their best chance, all the sayans go Ozaru and keep frieza busy/hide the nameks (cuz they are so huge ) then ALL the nameks fuse together into one person I'm not sure how many nameks it would take, or how many there actually are, but this seems like their best chance.
Huh... that's pretty damn clever actually. Yeah, I think that plan would allow them to win if they can execute it.

Good ideas, though on the fusions I think there's only a dozen or so warriors total, so I doubt they could get Nail strong enough.

Good plan, but I still don't think it'd work. Even IF the Saiyans had enough time to fully transform into Oozarus (remember, it takes a while), all Frieza would have to do is destroy the synthetic energy-moon(s) they would have created in order to transform, and *poof* they're back to normal. Additionally, even if the strongest Oozaru had a power level of 200,000 (which is being extremely giving) final form Frieza could still -literally- blink them out of existence.

As for the Namekians all fusing together: is that even possible? I mean, was it ever stated that they can fuse with one another indefinitely? If not, then we really can't assume they can merge any more times then Piccolo did (as he preformed the Namekian-fusion technique the most.) If they CAN all fuse together, I still don't think they'd be strong enough to beat final form Frieza. Aside from Piccolo, Nail was far and away the strongest Namekian warrior, and his PL was what? 42,000? Weaksauce compared to Frieza in any form.

Yeah, but Kami's PL was only about 300, and he multiplied piccolo's power many times over. Nail was 42,000 but it sure looked like Piccolo boosted more than just that.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, but Kami's PL was only about 300, and he multiplied piccolo's power many times over. Nail was 42,000 but it sure looked like Piccolo boosted more than just that.

But Piccolo/Kami's increase is in large part due to them being originally a much, much stronger warrior who was split, it was becoming whole more than adding their powers that mattered.

With Nail, it might've more than additive... but both were very strong to begin with, so not by much.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, but Kami's PL was only about 300, and he multiplied piccolo's power many times over. Nail was 42,000 but it sure looked like Piccolo boosted more than just that. I think the Kami thing had more to do with he and Piccolo once being part of the same whole, then it did with power levels.

And in this scenario, Nail wouldn't be fusing with beings anywhere near Piccolo-level... He'd be fusing with the 'standard' Namekian warriors Vegeta steamrolled through when he first got to Namek (who only had PL's of like 3,000.) That said, it's just hard to imagine them combining into a Namekian amalgam with a PL > 12,000,000, but w/e. /shrug

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, but Kami's PL was only about 300, and he multiplied piccolo's power many times over. Nail was 42,000 but it sure looked like Piccolo boosted more than just that. IIRC Guru confirmed that in Piccolo/Kami's original, fused form, he would be much more powerful than Freeza, although that is arguably a fallible statement.

Originally posted by NemeBro
IIRC Guru confirmed that in Piccolo/Kami's original, fused form, he would be much more powerful than Freeza, although that is arguably a fallible statement.
I know. That's one reason why its so obvious that it was more than just power levels that mattered.

Wasn't that only compared to first-form Frieza? I could see original-Piccolo/Kami being stronger than his 500k.

2 things:

Goten was not excluded and will therefore show up his entire race by giving Frieza a good fight.

Piccolo will win this for them more likely than not.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2 things:

Goten was not excluded and will therefore show up his entire race by giving Frieza a good fight.

Piccolo will win this for them more likely than not.
I was under the impression that all of the Z Fighters were excluded, but if Goten and Piccolo are both allowed then it's a different story. I don't think Goten can solo Frieza, but Piccolo combined with Kami can, he was equal in strength to androids 17 and 18, which makes him more powerful than Vegeta and Goku at the time, so I see no reason he couldn't win it.

That might be the impression but was not what the OP specified.

I know Goten likely couldn't kill Frieza. But he would put up a better fight than the rest of his race.

I assumed they were out because they weren't from those planets.

"all of the saiyan race ... that was on the bardock saga... the entire planet full of Saiyans."

I guess technically Goten is out. But Piccolo is still free game and will kill Frieza so it doesn't matter.

Yeah I didn't think Piccolo was part of this either... Mainly because he could easily beat Frieza by himself. No one else would be needed.

I would argue Goten could probably beat Freeza too, but that is beside the point.

Yeah, the only real way as far as I can tell for the Namekians to win is some uber mass fusing, though this assumes it is possible.

That said, Piccolo and Nail fusing, Nail whom we know was about as strong as an average Ginyu Force member, and Piccolo who presumably was not much more powerful, was able to make Piccolo strong enough to fight and hold the advantage against Freeza's second form. So theoretically it could work.

But yeah, Freeza more than likely wins.

Goten isn't included... none of the Z fighters is included.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah, the only real way as far as I can tell for the Namekians to win is some uber mass fusing, though this assumes it is possible. Yeah, but that's also assuming Namekians can fuse with one another indefinitely -- which I don't believe was ever mentioned in the manga/anime, was it?

If not, then we can't assume one Namekian can fuse with others more times than Piccolo did (since he preformed the most Namek/Namek fusions during the series he's the best gauge we have in this area.) Having said that, it's hard to believe that Nail fusing with 2-3 other random Namekian warriors with PL's around 3,000 would be sufficient to beat final form Frieza. Imo.

Originally posted by carver9
Goten isn't included... none of the Z fighters is included. So no Piccolo then? Cool beans.

Nope... no Piccolo.

Wasn't planet Vegeta stated as being at least 2 to 3 times bigger than Earth by Nappas own mouth. That's a lot of Saiyans and a lot of fire power. I'm pretty sure each of these Saiyans are stronger than Roshi who casually destroyed a moon. Roshi alone only had a power level of 129. With that said, there is no telling WHAT these Saiyans could dish out energy wise.

A combined attack from them would be something major (and it would probably kill them as well). I don't know if a combined attack of that magnetude from Saiyans that are weaker compared to a Vegeta (that hit Frieza with a big a** blast that he put his heart into which lead to Frieza smiling) could do anything... I really don't know.


Then if you think about it... Frieza killed an entire crew of some of the strongest Nameks on the planet with nothing but a kiss and this was frieza during his weakest.

They are going to be hard pressed at taking him down, HARD pressed and its questionable if they could even damage him or even see him during mid blitz (remember, Piccolo, Gohun, and Krillin couldn't even see Frieza attacks or him during the beginning of his last Transformation and this is a more powerful Frieza).

Basically Frieza could attack them any time he wants without them even knowing where it is coming from.

I just wanted to see what others thought about this and you all are making good arguments.

Dragonball logic is silly when it comes to team vs 1 fights

even if there were 100 guys with a 10,000 power level summing up to 1 million in power altogether, they could never beat someone with even 50,0000 power level lol

it always takes someone with equal or higher power level to take on another...thus frieza wins

Originally posted by Ages
Dragonball logic is silly when it comes to team vs 1 fights

even if there were 100 guys with a 10,000 power level summing up to 1 million in power altogether, they could never beat someone with even 50,0000 power level lol

it always takes someone with equal or higher power level to take on another...thus frieza wins

Very true.

If you think about it, you could get about a 100 guys with a power level of 10000 and they wouldn't even be a threat to someone with a power level of 50000 because for one, the person would be to fast to detect, too durable to hurt, and power to great to stand.

Namekian fusion is an exponential power in increase.


Piccolo was between 3500-20,000 before fusing with Nail. How do I know?

When he fought Nappa, it was, at most, 3500. Not much of a different in his power would have occured before he fused with Nail.



Nail was 42,000. Add those power levels up and you still do not get something even close to 500,000+. Frieza's second form was supposed to be over a million. Piccolo was something like 800,000-1,000,000 when he fought second form Frieza.

Obviously, the power jump was exponential when he fused with Nail. The exponential growth is about a power of 1.28.


http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_power_levels



That same would hold true when he fused with Kami.


So, if we assume the power jump is close to 1.28, every time they fuse (it could be higher or lower), it would take only 3 fusions with Nail to create a power level greater than 120,000,000.

Changing the OP so Frieza can win. Tsk tsk, I'm disapointed.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Namekian fusion is an exponential power in increase.


Piccolo was between 3500-20,000 before fusing with Nail. How do I know?

When he fought Nappa, it was, at most, 3500. Not much of a different in his power would have occured before he fused with Nail.



Nail was 42,000. Add those power levels up and you still do not get something even close to 500,000+. Frieza's second form was supposed to be over a million. Piccolo was something like 800,000-1,000,000 when he fought second form Frieza.

Obviously, the power jump was exponential when he fused with Nail. The exponential growth is about a power of 1.28.


http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_power_levels



That same would hold true when he fused with Kami.


So, if we assume the power jump is close to 1.28, every time they fuse (it could be higher or lower), it would take only 3 fusions with Nail to create a power level greater than 120,000,000. I can't agree with this.

First off, I'm sure Piccolo's PL was >> 20,000 (he had been training with King Kai, after all.) Secondly, if the Namekians could have beaten Frieza just by preforming a 3 person fusion, they surely would have opted to do so instead of allowing Frieza and Vegeta to slay so many of their people.

Additionally, obtaining a PL of 120,000,000 would put the Namekians above SSJ Vegeta, after he exited the time chamber. In fact, said amalgam's PL would have been roughly equal to USSJ Trunks (both of whom were FAR superior to -second form- Cell)... And considering that even AFTER Piccolo fused with Nail and Kami, he was only equal to -base form- Cell, it's really hard for me to believe that Nail fusing with a few weak/random Namekians would give him the power you described. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Galan007
I can't agree with this.

First off, I'm sure Piccolo's PL was >> 20,000 (he had been training with King Kai, after all.) Secondly, if the Namekians could have beaten Frieza just by preforming a 3 person fusion, they surely would have opted to do so instead of allowing Frieza and Vegeta to slay so many of their people.

Additionally, obtaining a PL of 120,000,000 would put the Namekians above SSJ Vegeta, after he exited the time chamber. In fact, said amalgam's PL would have been roughly equal to USSJ Trunks (both of whom were FAR superior to -second form- Cell)... And considering that even AFTER Piccolo fused with Nail and Kami, he was only equal to -base form- Cell, it's really hard for me to believe that Nail fusing with a few weak/random Namekians would give him the power you described. Just my opinion.

I agree 100% with this and honestly we don't even know where piccolo power level was at after leaving King Ki planet... its all a guess. What we do know is that Piccolo felt first form Frieza power level before coming on Namek and when he came on the planet and he believed that he was strong enough and had enough power to beat him and this was "before" the fusion.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Changing the OP so Frieza can win. Tsk tsk, I'm disapointed.
Ya had to have saw it coming though. This is Carver after all.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Namekian fusion is an exponential power in increase.


Piccolo was between 3500-20,000 before fusing with Nail. How do I know?

When he fought Nappa, it was, at most, 3500. Not much of a different in his power would have occured before he fused with Nail.



Nail was 42,000. Add those power levels up and you still do not get something even close to 500,000+. Frieza's second form was supposed to be over a million. Piccolo was something like 800,000-1,000,000 when he fought second form Frieza.

Obviously, the power jump was exponential when he fused with Nail. The exponential growth is about a power of 1.28.


http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_power_levels



That same would hold true when he fused with Kami.


So, if we assume the power jump is close to 1.28, every time they fuse (it could be higher or lower), it would take only 3 fusions with Nail to create a power level greater than 120,000,000. Soooo, what you are saying, is that I was right?

Originally posted by menokokoro
Soooo, what you are saying, is that I was right?

If you claimed it was exponential growth to fuse.....YES!

Training with King Kai, that can account for a lot.

Well, in filler at least, even Yamcha was stronger than the normal members of the Ginyu Force.

But that is filler.

How strong Piccolo is is hard to say.

I'd say he's about as strong as Goku when he fought Vegeta. Since they had both trained with King Kai then.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you claimed it was exponential growth to fuse.....YES! Well, even if a Namek's power increases 3x with every other Namek they fuse with, it still doesn't amount to some kind of super-duper amalgam that would wtfpwn Frieza. For instance, Nail's PL = 42,000. If he merged with a random Namek and got a 3x boost in power, his PL would then bump to 126,000. If he were to then fuse with yet another Namek and receive an additional 3x boost, he'd jump to a PL of 378,000 -- so right there we have a 3-Namek fusion that doesn't even amount to base from Frieza's PL.

But just to throw it out there: Nail's PL would have to increase by 300x before he'd reach final form Frieza's level (42,000 x 300 = 12,600,000... Final form Frieza's PL -at 100%- was 12,000,000.) So that means if he did a 3-Namek fusion, he'd have to get a 150x power boost with each fusion. Just can't see that happening. /shrug

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'd say he's about as strong as Goku when he fought Vegeta. Since they had both trained with King Kai then. I think he was significantly stronger then that. For one, Piccolo was quite a bit more powerful when he first got to King Kai's planet then Goku was when he first got there (if you recall, Piccolo was able to catch Bubbles right off the bat like it was nothing.) Secondly, when Piccolo was first resurrected/transported to Namek, he could sense Frieza's power and still wasn't worried about fighting him -- and that was before he fused with Nail. I realize that isn't the best power gauge out there, but it should count for something...

Originally posted by Galan007
Well, even if a Namek's power increases 3x with every other Namek they fuse with, it still doesn't amount to some kind of super-duper amalgam that would wtfpwn Frieza. For instance, Nail's PL = 42,000. If he merged with a random Namek and got a 3x boost in power, his PL would then bump to 126,000. If he were to then fuse with yet another Namek and receive an additional 3x boost, he'd jump to a PL of 378,000 -- so right there we have a 3-Namek fusion that doesn't even amount to base from Frieza's PL.

But just to throw it out there: Nail's PL would have to increase by 300x before he'd reach final form Frieza's level (42,000 x 300 = 12,600,000... Final form Frieza's PL -at 100%- was 12,000,000.) So that means if he did a 3-Namek fusion, he'd have to get a 150x power boost with each fusion. Just can't see that happening. /shrug

I think he was significantly stronger then that. For one, Piccolo was quite a bit more powerful when he first got to King Kai's planet then Goku was when he first got there (if you recall, Piccolo was able to catch Bubbles right off the bat like it was nothing.) Secondly, when Piccolo was first resurrected/transported to Namek, he could sense Frieza's power and still wasn't worried about fighting him -- and that was before he fused with Nail. I realize that isn't the best power gauge out there, but it should count for something...

But where would Nail get the time to even perform all of these fusions and then you have to remember, there were only 200 namekians and some of them were children. Frieza can shoot a casual blast and take out the entire population of Namekians if he wanted to. Then the fusion wasn't something that happened instantly, it took time, time that Nail won't have.

I thought Frieza and Goku power level was higher than 12 million.

Originally posted by carver9
But where would Nail get the time to even perform all of these fusions and then you have to remember, there were only 200 namekians and some of them were children. Frieza can shoot a casual blast and take out the entire population of Namekians if he wanted to. Then the fusion wasn't something that happened instantly, it took time, time that Nail won't have. Yeah, I brought that up a while back.

Originally posted by Q99
Training with King Kai, that can account for a lot.

It can only count up to how much Goku grew minus a bit, which is about 8000, at the most.


Goku trained for an entire year with King Kai and Piccolo and the others only got to train for almost 2 months.

Goku was also given more specialized training.


This leads me to believe Piccolo was between 3500 (his powered up form against Nappa) and 20,000. That's a generous jump from 3500 using the "8000" number. I should say he could be, at the most, only (8000 * 1/10) + 3500 = 4300

Why 1/10? Cause the trip to Namek took one month, it took them several days to leave right after the fight, and several days passed on Namek while they were there:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2894-1/dragon-ball/chapter-245.html

That scene shows Bulma visiting the ship very shortly after the fight ended (she was transported from the hospital where Gohan was, to that site.)

She said that they would leave in 5 days but it changes to 10 days, here:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2894-6/dragon-ball/chapter-245.html


Then here it says it took them 37 days:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2895-14/dragon-ball/chapter-246.html

So 37 +10 = 47 days since Piccolo died.


Goku went from earth to Namek in 6 days. Total days so far: 53. Since Goku arrived on Namek AFTER the Ginyu force, 53 is how many days passed before Piccolo was revived....54 at the most.

Here, we see how much time has passed during a dozen or so chapters since this arch started: half a day.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2909-11/dragon-ball/chapter-260.html


So we know they weren't pissing around for many days before Piccolo came back.

But we must continue...

Here, the Ginyu force will take 5 days to arrive on Namek (this would put it around 52 days).

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2913-5/dragon-ball/chapter-264.html

But Vegeta thinks it will be 3 or 4 days, here:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2919-3/dragon-ball/chapter-270.html

Let's go with the high end estimate...so total days are after 5 days have passed would be 52 days.


Four days pass since that cave scene.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2919-13/dragon-ball/chapter-270.html

So our total days are at 52, not 53. The Ginyu force arrived very shortly after that statement.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2921-1/dragon-ball/chapter-272.html

And in the same day, Piccolo is brought to planet Namek.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2943-1/dragon-ball/chapter-294.html

It looks like night because they just summoned the dragon (Namek didn't have any nights.)

So a total time of 52 days passed. POSSIBLY 53 days if you want to add more time for the trips across Namek (which seemed to take 4 hours, full speed, for Krillin, before he got a power boost (2 hours after)).



Goku's power, during his fight with Raditz, was around 420-480 (I forget.)

He increased it to 8000 with his training on Namek in one year.

Piccolo only got 53 days, at the very most. Goku's special ability, if he can be said to have one, is his enormous growth speed. I do not think Piccolo could grow to close to 1 million, which is around what Freiza's second form was supposed to be, in only 58 days. His power growth is not as steep as Goku's. If Nail's power was added to Piccolo's, that means that Piccolo would have to have been very close to 1 million, already, because 42,000 + x ~ 1,000,000. X has to be close to a million and x is Piccolo's power level. Piccolo does NOT have the Saiyan ability to become significantly stronger than his previous form, right after near death. Vegeta went from 18,000 to 24,000 after his near death recovery from fighting the Z-Warriors on Earth. So that's a jump of 33% each time. That could be exponential growth, for sure. But Piccolo does not have that ability.


On another thought, let's see how far Goku went in his training till he fought the Ginyu: His power rose all the way to 180,000. He DOES say "Kao Ken" so his power may be just 90,000.

But let's see if the numbers work out for 180,000, first, then we'll go lower end estimate.


His power against Vegeta and Nappa was 8000.

He got a Senzu Bean from Yajirobe or Korrin (I don't remember) when he was in the hospital. So that's a 33% growth, there.

Then, he had 7 left for his trip in space, for his 6 day flight to Namek. He used 4 and had 3 left (which he used to revive Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta.) So that's 4 other instances of 33% growth for a total of 5 instances. Easy power growth...

8000 * (1.3333333333333333^5) ~ 33712

Does 33712 equal 180,000? No.

Does 33712 equal 90,000? No.

So, as I stated, Goku's special ability is his ability to grow faster in strength. If we go to the low end, we could use logs to figure out Goku's level up to 90,000.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you claimed it was exponential growth to fuse.....YES! Well...I didn't per se, but I did say that they could win through fusion.

K, I did the calculation using logs.

In this equation, 8000*(x^5) = 90000

x = 1.6227 OR, in other words, a 62.27% growth rate, each time he heals. That's a much greater heal rate than Vegeta's 33%: almost double Vegeta's.

Anyway, if we are to take it a step further and say that Kao Ken was not used and use 1800000, that math is much more in favor of a gigantic growth.

1.8639 or, 86.39% growth each time Goku recovers.


Piccolo is no where near a Saiyan, in that regard, so Vegeta is more than proof that he could not come anywhere near the 900,000+ power level increase required to fuse with Nail and be nearly even with the 1,000,000+ form of Frieza's second form.



In other words, Namekian fusion is an exponential growth...a huge one.


Piccolo went from around a power level of 1,000,000 to well over 150,000,000 because he had to fuse with Kami, Goku was 150,000,000 when he fought Frieza, Android 17 was far stronger than Trunks who was supposedly around Goku's even more powerful form when he came back to Earth...meaning...Piccolo's fusion with Kami exponentially raised his power level from 1,000,000 to something well over 150,000,000...just the same as it did raising his power from 3500-20,000 to near a million.


What do we have? We can see if they numbers work out...

We'll go with 20,000 for his King Kai training, to be safe. I'll pretend that his fusion with Kami increased his power to 250,000,000.

20000^x = 1,000,000

x = 1.395

1000000^x = 250,000,000

x = 1.399

That's remarkably close and it scales very nicely.

I do not think Toriyama worked out algorithms in his studio before coming up with these things...but it just happened to work out fairly well.



I would consider the fusion dance technique to NOT be as complete as the earings or Namekians fusions...but to be close.


Originally posted by carver9
BuI thought Frieza and Goku power level was higher than 12 million.

It is. Frieza's is 120,000,000 and Goku's is 150,000,000.


Originally posted by menokokoro
Well...I didn't per se, but I did say that they could win through fusion.

I worked it out. It's fairly exponential in growth.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It can only count up to how much Goku grew minus a bit, which is about 8000, at the most.


Goku trained for an entire year with King Kai and Piccolo and the others only got to train for almost 2 months.

Goku was also given more specialized training.


This leads me to believe Piccolo was between 3500 (his powered up form against Nappa) and 20,000. That's a generous jump from 3500 using the "8000" number. I should say he could be, at the most, only (8000 * 1/10) + 3500 = 4300

Why 1/10? Cause the trip to Namek took one month, it took them several days to leave right after the fight, and several days passed on Namek while they were there:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2894-1/dragon-ball/chapter-245.html

That scene shows Bulma visiting the ship very shortly after the fight ended (she was transported from the hospital where Gohan was, to that site.)

She said that they would leave in 5 days but it changes to 10 days, here:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2894-6/dragon-ball/chapter-245.html


Then here it says it took them 37 days:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2895-14/dragon-ball/chapter-246.html

So 37 +10 = 47 days since Piccolo died.


Goku went from earth to Namek in 6 days. Total days so far: 53. Since Goku arrived on Namek AFTER the Ginyu force, 53 is how many days passed before Piccolo was revived....54 at the most.

Here, we see how much time has passed during a dozen or so chapters since this arch started: half a day.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2909-11/dragon-ball/chapter-260.html


So we know they weren't pissing around for many days before Piccolo came back.

But we must continue...

Here, the Ginyu force will take 5 days to arrive on Namek (this would put it around 52 days).

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2913-5/dragon-ball/chapter-264.html

But Vegeta thinks it will be 3 or 4 days, here:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2919-3/dragon-ball/chapter-270.html

Let's go with the high end estimate...so total days are after 5 days have passed would be 52 days.


Four days pass since that cave scene.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2919-13/dragon-ball/chapter-270.html

So our total days are at 52, not 53. The Ginyu force arrived very shortly after that statement.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2921-1/dragon-ball/chapter-272.html

And in the same day, Piccolo is brought to planet Namek.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2943-1/dragon-ball/chapter-294.html

It looks like night because they just summoned the dragon (Namek didn't have any nights.)

So a total time of 52 days passed. POSSIBLY 53 days if you want to add more time for the trips across Namek (which seemed to take 4 hours, full speed, for Krillin, before he got a power boost (2 hours after)).



Goku's power, during his fight with Raditz, was around 420-480 (I forget.)

He increased it to 8000 with his training on Namek in one year.

Piccolo only got 53 days, at the very most. Goku's special ability, if he can be said to have one, is his enormous growth speed. I do not think Piccolo could grow to close to 1 million, which is around what Freiza's second form was supposed to be, in only 58 days. His power growth is not as steep as Goku's. If Nail's power was added to Piccolo's, that means that Piccolo would have to have been very close to 1 million, already, because 42,000 + x ~ 1,000,000. X has to be close to a million and x is Piccolo's power level. Piccolo does NOT have the Saiyan ability to become significantly stronger than his previous form, right after near death. Vegeta went from 18,000 to 24,000 after his near death recovery from fighting the Z-Warriors on Earth. So that's a jump of 33% each time. That could be exponential growth, for sure. But Piccolo does not have that ability.


On another thought, let's see how far Goku went in his training till he fought the Ginyu: His power rose all the way to 180,000. He DOES say "Kao Ken" so his power may be just 90,000.

But let's see if the numbers work out for 180,000, first, then we'll go lower end estimate.


His power against Vegeta and Nappa was 8000.

He got a Senzu Bean from Yajirobe or Korrin (I don't remember) when he was in the hospital. So that's a 33% growth, there.

Then, he had 7 left for his trip in space, for his 6 day flight to Namek. He used 4 and had 3 left (which he used to revive Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta.) So that's 4 other instances of 33% growth for a total of 5 instances. Easy power growth...

8000 * (1.3333333333333333^5) ~ 33712

Does 33712 equal 180,000? No.

Does 33712 equal 90,000? No.

So, as I stated, Goku's special ability is his ability to grow faster in strength. If we go to the low end, we could use logs to figure out Goku's level up to 90,000.

Hhhmmm... you got a couple of things wrong there. Goku training majority of the time on King Ki planet was him getting use to the intense gravity and that was majority of the time. The reason why his body was unable to handle it was due to his low power level.

Piccolo didn't need this training, his body was basically already adjusted to the intense gravity. Then you have to look at it like this. Piccolo asked Ki to train him instead of going through all of the foolishness of adjusting to the gravity but ki denied him. That when Piccolo told ki that he was going to train on his own "which he did". I THINK (can't remember) that KK gave in and decided to train him but the training was done off panel.

Piccolo rceived training and majority of it was off panel. There really isn't a telling how powerful Piccolo was. Remember, Piccolo was able to take on all 3 of the Z fighters that were there with him and going by the increase in power that Goku received after leaving King Ki planet (and Ki himself stating that the 3 Z fighters that were there became stronger than Goku after leaving his planet), Piccolo was able to stalemate 3 people with a power level of 18k or possibly higher. Let's not forget, there were still days left after his fight against the 3 which lead to additional training.

Another thing... the Goku that faced Captain Ginyu power level was higher than 180k. He asked Ginyu if he wanted him to continue increasing so we really don't have a gauge on where he was at power wise.

What we do know is after healing from his near death experience... his power level jumped exponentially. He did well against a frieza that power level was over 10 million which is INSANE.

Another thing, the Goku that fought Nappa and Vegeta power level was higher than 8000... you have to remember, he was using kao ken which increased it to 20k during his fight against Vegeta... the 8000 quote was from a holding back Goku.

One more thing... Goku didn't train for a year on the Ki planet... a couple of months went by on his journey to the Ki planet on snake way.

Originally posted by Galan007
Well, even if a Namek's power increases 3x with every other Namek they fuse with, it still doesn't amount to some kind of super-duper amalgam that would wtfpwn Frieza. For instance, Nail's PL = 42,000. If he merged with a random Namek and got a 3x boost in power, his PL would then bump to 126,000. If he were to then fuse with yet another Namek and receive an additional 3x boost, he'd jump to a PL of 378,000 -- so right there we have a 3-Namek fusion that doesn't even amount to base from Frieza's PL.

But just to throw it out there: Nail's PL would have to increase by 300x before he'd reach final form Frieza's level (42,000 x 300 = 12,600,000... Final form Frieza's PL -at 100%- was 12,000,000.) So that means if he did a 3-Namek fusion, he'd have to get a 150x power boost with each fusion. Just can't see that happening. /shrug

You're a bit off, there. I already worked out the growth and the power is close to 1.39 for each fusion. Nail had to fuse with Piccolo because Piccolo was fully healthy and Nail was going to die, so, Piccolo was the one that got the boost. Nail would actually be stronger than Piccolo so if Nail was the one that did the mergings, we'd have a much more powerful base to work with...making the exponential growth much greater than Piccolo's.


Here's how it works out if Nail was the one fusing:

42000^(1.397*3) = 1,053,840,595


Also known as "three fusions", like I stated earlier. Two fusions would not be enough to take out final form, full power Frieza.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think he was significantly stronger then that. For one, Piccolo was quite a bit more powerful when he first got to King Kai's planet then Goku was when he first got there (if you recall, Piccolo was able to catch Bubbles right off the bat like it was nothing.) Secondly, when Piccolo was first resurrected/transported to Namek, he could sense Frieza's power and still wasn't worried about fighting him -- and that was before he fused with Nail. I realize that isn't the best power gauge out there, but it should count for something...

He wasn't much stronger than that, actually. 20,000 is pushing it.

Additionally, you're logic of him being much stronger actually greatly hurts your conclusion. IF he was that much more powerful when he got to King Kai's planet, then the amount of training he had to do to get over the gravity was much less than Goku's. Keep in mind that Goku trained in 10 times the gravity of King Kai's planet: 100x gravity. He had to work his way up and got "used to it" while pushing his life to the edge of death 4 times. Goku also has a much higher growth potential than any Namekian.

In other words, it is literally impossible for Piccolo to have gotten very much stronger on King Kai's planet after only having trained there for, at the very most, 53 days. Unless you're going to put forth that Piccolo has a far greater growth rate than Goku, which is directly wrong.

Additionally, Piccolo does NOT think he can beat Frieza when he gets to Namek...he sh*ts his pants when he finally senses Frieza:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2943-2/dragon-ball/chapter-294.html


Here, Nail says that he would have to join his other half to be strong enough to take on Frieza:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2944-1/dragon-ball/chapter-295.html

We know that the growth is exponential, so my numbers work out perfectly to show us Piccolo is around 20,000.


Also, the Namekian says, quite clearly, that his power will increase several times if he joins with him:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2944-2/dragon-ball/chapter-295.html


We have irrefutible evidence that it is a very very large increase in power.



Here Piccolo is, AFTER fusing, saying he can beat Frieza, now.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2944-6/dragon-ball/chapter-295.html

His power jumped much higher than the small Frieza's form, making Piccolo know that he could beat him.


And here, Frieza just slightly less than doubled his power level.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2945-9/dragon-ball/chapter-296.html

Originally posted by carver9
Hhhmmm... you got a couple of things wrong there. Goku training majority of the time on King Ki planet was him getting use to the intense gravity and that was majority of the time. The reason why his body was unable to handle it was due to his low power level.

Piccolo didn't need this training, his body was basically already adjusted to the intense gravity. Then you have to look at it like this. Piccolo asked Ki to train him instead of going through all of the foolishness of adjusting to the gravity but ki denied him. That when Piccolo told ki that he was going to train on his own "which he did". I THINK (can't remember) that KK gave in and decided to train him but the training was done off panel.

Piccolo rceived training and majority of it was off panel. There really isn't a telling how powerful Piccolo was. Remember, Piccolo was able to take on all 3 of the Z fighters that were there with him and going by the increase in power that Goku received after leaving King Ki planet (and Ki himself stating that the 3 Z fighters that were there became stronger than Goku after leaving his planet), Piccolo was able to stalemate 3 people with a power level of 18k or possibly higher. Let's not forget, there were still days left after his fight against the 3 which lead to additional training.

Another thing... the Goku that faced Captain Ginyu power level was higher than 180k. He asked Ginyu if he wanted him to continue increasing so we really don't have a gauge on where he was at power wise.

What we do know is after healing from his near death experience... his power level jumped exponentially. He did well against a frieza that power level was over 10 million which is INSANE.

Another thing, the Goku that fought Nappa and Vegeta power level was higher than 8000... you have to remember, he was using kao ken which increased it to 20k during his fight against Vegeta... the 8000 quote was from a holding back Goku.

One more thing... Goku didn't train for a year on the Ki planet... a couple of months went by on his journey to the Ki planet on snake way.


Nothing I said was wrong. It was perfect. I am not even kidding.

I'll go down the list of things that you got wrong.


First, Goku arrived with 158 days left to train out of the year he had.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2860-3/dragon-ball/chapter-211.html


40 days, Goku finally got strong enough to catch Bubbles.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2860-11/dragon-ball/chapter-211.html

Then he was taught the Kao Ken and Genki Dama.

So, no, it took Goku only 40 days with the majority of his time left to spend on learning the advanced techniques.

158 - 40 = 118 days.

So, you're wrong there.

Edit, just checked, it took the other 4 much less time than it did Goku.

Goku took 207 days to get there with a power level around 450...while wearing weighted clothes.

The weakest of them was much stronger than a power level of 450, so, yes, it would not take them nearly as long...but guess how long it took?

It took them from the time Goku was in space for about a day...or a total time of 47 or 48 days to get there.


So they were much stronger than Goku was when he made the trip (which is obvious.)

Not one of them, however, was nearly as strong as Goku who made the trip back to earth in a day and his power level was 8000 when he got back to earth.


So what did we learn from that?

Piccolo had about 6 days of training.

CAN piccolo increase his power from around 3500 to one million in that time frame when Goku increased his from 450 to 8000 in far more time?


No.

How do we know this/

Because Piccolo was around 3500 when he got to King Kai's planet, had 6 days to train, and Goku progressed only to 180,000 by the time he got to Namek when he used his Saiyan regeneration ability no less than 5 times using Senzu beans. In other words, Piccolo wasn't even close to a million.



Also. NO training occured on panel for Piccolo or anyone, for htat manner. You're thinking of the Anime...stick to the manga. So all the rest of what you talked about is null and does not apply to what I said. Also, base form Goku had a power level of 8000 against Vegeta and Nappa. Kai Ken doesn't count and it's quite logical why it does not: we are trying to use the base form Goku as a comparable measure against Frieza...so we have a meter stick for Piccolo's power.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're a bit off, there. I already worked out the growth and the power is close to 1.39 for each fusion. Nail had to fuse with Piccolo because Piccolo was fully healthy and Nail was going to die, so, Piccolo was the one that got the boost. Nail would actually be stronger than Piccolo so if Nail was the one that did the mergings, we'd have a much more powerful base to work with...making the exponential growth much greater than Piccolo's.


Here's how it works out if Nail was the one fusing:

42000^(1.397*3) = 1,053,840,595


Also known as "three fusions", like I stated earlier. Two fusions would not be enough to take out final form, full power Frieza. Yeah, still not buying a 3-Namek fusion possessing a PL anywhere near 120,000,000, as you stated earlier.

Like I mentioned, that would put Nail -beyond- SSJ Vegeta after he exited the time chamber, and roughly equal to USSJ Trunks (both of whom were FAR more powerful than second form Cell.) Surely you can see why that's hard for me to believe, considering that even -after- Piccolo fused with Nail/Kami, he was still barely equal to FIRST form Cell.... So how you think Nail would jump to levels WELL beyond that, just by merging with 2 other no name/weak Nameks, is beyond me..?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Additionally, Piccolo does NOT think he can beat Frieza when he gets to Namek...he sh*ts his pants when he finally senses Frieza:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2943-2/dragon-ball/chapter-294.html "Shits his pants", eh?

All I see Piccolo doing there is noting Frieza's large power level in comparison to the others he sensed. After noting the aforementioned, he -immediately- begins flying in that direction to confront Frieza. He clearly wasn't worried about fighting him whatsoever.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here, Nail says that he would have to join his other half to be strong enough to take on Frieza:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2944-1/dragon-ball/chapter-295.html Yeah, that's when Frieza was still in his -base- form. Considering that's the form Nail fought, and considering he wouldn't have been able to sense Frieza's power beyond that form, it's safe to say he was referring exclusively to a Piccolo/Kami fusion being superior to Frieza's -base level- power.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, the Namekian says, quite clearly, that his power will increase several times if he joins with him:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2944-2/dragon-ball/chapter-295.html


We have irrefutible evidence that it is a very very large increase in power. Never said it wasn't a large increase (hence why I went with a 3x power boost per fusion in my last post.) However, your 'calcs' are clearly WAY off. A 3-Namek fusion would/does -not- have a PL anywhere near what you stated earlier (again, blatant evidence of this can be found by simply looking at Piccolo's fusion history.)

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here Piccolo is, AFTER fusing, saying he can beat Frieza, now.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2944-6/dragon-ball/chapter-295.html

His power jumped much higher than the small Frieza's form, making Piccolo know that he could beat him. Uhuh. Piccolo ALSO said that he could beat Frieza "no matter how strong he is" -- which couldn't have been further from the truth.

That said, his little outburst there can easily (and rightfully) be written off as hyperbole.

---

Aside from all of that, the Namekians having enough time to preform 2 different fusions before Frieza blasted the shit out of the field, is slim to none -- it's not exactly a fast process, after all.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, still not buying a 3-Namek fusion possessing a PL anywhere near 120,000,000, as you stated earlier.

Despite it's fact?

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I mentioned, that would put Nail -beyond- SSJ Vegeta after he exited the time chamber, and roughly equal to USSJ Trunks (both of whom were FAR more powerful than second form Cell.) Surely you can see why that's hard for me to believe, considering that even -after- Piccolo fused with Nail/Kami, he was still barely equal to FIRST form Cell.... So how you think Nail would jump to levels WELL beyond that, just by merging with 2 other no name/weak Nameks, is beyond me..?

Uhhhh...yeah! That's how it works. When piccolo fused again, he was somewhere between SSJ and FPSSJ. He was stronger than 16 but equal to 17. 17 man handled 2 or more SSJs like they were nothing. So, yeah, he had BETTER be between those two after 3 fusions.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Shits his pants", eh?

All I see Piccolo doing there is noting Frieza's large power level in comparison to the others he sensed. After noting the aforementioned, he -immediately- begins flying in that direction to confront Frieza. He clearly wasn't worried about fighting him whatsoever.

Yeah, Piccolo shit his pants. As fact, he didn't say he could do it (after sensing his real power) until AFTER he fused...and that was before Frieza went to form 2.

You're horrendously pwned on this point.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, that's when Frieza was still in his -base- form. Considering that's the form Nail fought, and considering he wouldn't have been able to sense Frieza's power beyond that form, it's safe to say he was referring exclusively to a Piccolo/Kami fusion being superior to Frieza's -base level- power.

You missed the point entirely. facepalm


If he joined with Nail, he'd be strong enough to beat the 530,000 PL Frieza. If he joined with Kami, he'd be strong enough to beat the 530,000 PL Frieza. AKA, the progression for either fusion would be around the same.

Originally posted by Galan007
Never said it wasn't a large increase (hence why I went with a 3x power boost per fusion in my last post.) However, your 'calcs' are clearly WAY off. A 3-Namek fusion would/does -not- have a PL anywhere near what you stated earlier (again, blatant evidence of this can be found by simply looking at Piccolo's fusion history.)

You actually used 3 times...which arbitrary...and definitely wrong.

And, no, the calcs are perfect. Deal with it. Not sure why this shatters some sort of dream of yours about DBZ, but you really need to get over it. It's a exponential increase to fuse.


Additionally, we get to clearly see three fusions and, yes, it's WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than enough to handle final form Frieza at 100%...which is what this is about. Nail had a higher base, 42,000, so he would have been much higher had he done the fusions.

Originally posted by Galan007
Uhuh. Piccolo ALSO said that he could beat Frieza "no matter how strong he is" -- which couldn't have been further from the truth.

You're wrong.

At the time, Frieza was still his base form. He could have easily beat that form, at the time.

Originally posted by Galan007
That said, his little outburst there can easily (and rightfully) be written off as hyperbole.

Incorrect. It is correct: you've missed a key point that madee you incorrectly conclude.


Originally posted by Galan007
Aside from all of that, the Namekians having enough time to preform 2 different fusions before Frieza blasted the shit out of the field, is slim to none -- it's not exactly a fast process, after all.

The thread makes no mention of a scouter so, no, you're wrong there, too.


There's another reason why they can't fuse and it's very obvious: I would like to submit the reason why if you give up your futile argument that horrendously fails (and will always fail due to the three Namekian fusions clearly being exponential) and you'll like it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, still not buying a 3-Namek fusion possessing a PL anywhere near 120,000,000, as you stated earlier.

Like I mentioned, that would put Nail -beyond- SSJ Vegeta after he exited the time chamber, and roughly equal to USSJ Trunks (both of whom were FAR more powerful than second form Cell.) Surely you can see why that's hard for me to believe, considering that even -after- Piccolo fused with Nail/Kami, he was still barely equal to FIRST form Cell.... So how you think Nail would jump to levels WELL beyond that, just by merging with 2 other no name/weak Nameks, is beyond me..?

"Shits his pants", eh?

All I see Piccolo doing there is noting Frieza's large power level in comparison to the others he sensed. After noting the aforementioned, he -immediately- begins flying in that direction to confront Frieza. He clearly wasn't worried about fighting him whatsoever.

Yeah, that's when Frieza was still in his -base- form. Considering that's the form Nail fought, and considering he wouldn't have been able to sense Frieza's power beyond that form, it's safe to say he was referring exclusively to a Piccolo/Kami fusion being superior to Frieza's -base level- power.

Never said it wasn't a large increase (hence why I went with a 3x power boost per fusion in my last post.) However, your 'calcs' are clearly WAY off. A 3-Namek fusion would/does -not- have a PL anywhere near what you stated earlier (again, blatant evidence of this can be found by simply looking at Piccolo's fusion history.)

Uhuh. Piccolo ALSO said that he could beat Frieza "no matter how strong he is" -- which couldn't have been further from the truth.

That said, his little outburst there can easily (and rightfully) be written off as hyperbole.

---

Aside from all of that, the Namekians having enough time to preform 2 different fusions before Frieza blasted the shit out of the field, is slim to none -- it's not exactly a fast process, after all.

Good post Galan.

I agree with all of this.

Eh, someone just cuts Frieza in half with a sword.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Eh, someone just cuts Frieza in half with a sword.

HA!


They have to be fast enough, though.




Also, Goku mentions that Frieza must of trained really really hard to get as powerful as he does. Since his parents are obviously very rich, it does not seem implausible that his parents would allow him to get the very best Ki and martial arts training in the universe. Additionally, his species seems to have a long life-span because he looks the exact same when he destroys Vegeta, as he does when he's on Namek.

Additionally, all of DB after the Frieza saga has a gigantic plot hole: any of the saiyans or half saiyans can QUICKLY defeat any foe they are up against by using the technique that Goku and Vegeta did during the Namek Saga: have someone hurt them near to death and have Dende heal them. Do this about 3 or 4 times and no one comes close in power to defeating them. Genius idea, right? Well, not really...cause they already thought of it during the Namek Saga.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Eh, someone just cuts Frieza in half with a sword.

Not happening and there is no telling WHAT that sword was made out of and then it was weilded by a Super Saiyan. THEN you have to look at the fact that even Frieza father was suprised that Trunks sword was able to damage Frieza and stated that the sword had to be special in order to do that.

This thread is full of lame. A lot of lame. I command this thread to stop being lame.

Originally posted by carver9
Not happening and there is no telling WHAT that sword was made out of and then it was weilded by a Super Saiyan. THEN you have to look at the fact that even Frieza father was suprised that Trunks sword was able to damage Frieza and stated that the sword had to be special in order to do that.


Wasn't it shown that there was absolutely nothing special about that sword?

Frieza goes bye bye from a good swing.

Frieza has survived a planet explosion.

A sword from any weak Saiyan or Namekian will not so much as tickle him.

As it stands, with no Piccolo, Frieza absolutely curbstomps this thread. This is fact.

Just some food for thought. My friend had a power level chart from some quasi-official looking book back when I was in 8th grade (this is before the toonami funimation dub started airing) and it read out that Piccolo's power level when he arrived on Namek was somewhere around 200,000. I don't know how official that number is or if it's official at all, but I remembered that seeming reasonable considering the power Nail seemed to imply he had when he got to Namek.

Originally posted by dadudemon
HA!


They have to be fast enough, though.




Also, Goku mentions that Frieza must of trained really really hard to get as powerful as he does. Since his parents are obviously very rich, it does not seem implausible that his parents would allow him to get the very best Ki and martial arts training in the universe. Additionally, his species seems to have a long life-span because he looks the exact same when he destroys Vegeta, as he does when he's on Namek.

Additionally, all of DB after the Frieza saga has a gigantic plot hole: any of the saiyans or half saiyans can QUICKLY defeat any foe they are up against by using the technique that Goku and Vegeta did during the Namek Saga: have someone hurt them near to death and have Dende heal them. Do this about 3 or 4 times and no one comes close in power to defeating them. Genius idea, right? Well, not really...cause they already thought of it during the Namek Saga.
I remember reading somewhere that once you reach SSJ that ability no longer has the same effect it used to... I don't remember if that's explicitly stated but it would make sense.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Frieza has survived a planet explosion.




And yet the sword went through him like butter.


All we know is a sword that was shown failing to go through two other people and attributed with no special properties went through Frieza with ease. Your defenses are assumptions, my point is backed by canon, ergo, I win.

Notice how you didn't really refute me.

The sword instance is a plot hole. That sword would technically shatter the minute Trunks hit him with it. It did not. So we have to assume the reason the sword went through him was because of who was wielding it.

Where is my point not backed by canon? You saying Frieza did not survive being in a planet explosion? Seems canon to me.

It's pointless though because 1) I can't imagine anyone in this thread having a freaking sword so it doesn't matter and B. No one in this thread could swing that sword with the same strength Trunks would have.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Notice how you didn't really refute me.

The sword instance is a plot hole. That sword would technically shatter the minute Trunks hit him with it. It did not. So we have to assume the reason the sword went through him was because of who was wielding it.

Where is my point not backed by canon? You saying Frieza did not survive being in a planet explosion? Seems canon to me.

It's pointless though because 1) I can't imagine anyone in this thread having a freaking sword so it doesn't matter and B. No one in this thread could swing that sword with the same strength Trunks would have.

You are not backed in canon in your assumption that an individual MUST be as strong as Trunks to cut through Frieza, or that the sword should have shattered on impact. That's speculation on your part.

There was a sword, it went through Frieza with ease, end of story.

Hell, how is Frieza being cut a plothole? vulnerability to slicing moves is predominant throughout the series, with moves like the destructo disk being capable of killing beings far more powerful then the individual who used the move. Basically, frieza can survive being blown up as much as he wants, a good snip has been shown on panel as all that's necessary.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
You are not backed in canon in your assumption that an individual MUST be as strong as Trunks to cut through Frieza, or that the sword should have shattered on impact. That's speculation on your part.

There was a sword, it went through Frieza with ease, end of story.

Hell, how is Frieza being cut a plothole? vulnerability to slicing moves is predominant throughout the series, with moves like the destructo disk being capable of killing beings far more powerful then the individual who used the move. Basically, frieza can survive being blown up as much as he wants, a good snip has been shown on panel as all that's necessary.

Not really. Since you noted the sword is not special, the only thing left in the equation is the wielder.

I could be an ass and say that that was a weaker Frieza who is not in this thread right? Just a heads up.

....You realize how much force goes into blowing up a planet? That much power is far above the levels Frieza's opponents will be able to dish out to him in this thread. But tell me something: What happens when someone very strong hits something very durable with an item that is not particularly strong?

You still haven't addressed where in the hell this sword that the Saiyans or Nameks have came from. Or how in the hell they'll be fast enough to hit him with it.

Frieza utterly stomps this thread.

Assuming that any fool with a sword can kill Frieza like Trunks is one of the worst cases of downplay I've seen in awhile. Besides, didn't Trunks' sword break when he tried using it on Android 18 (someone far stronger than him at the time) in an attempt to save Vegeta?

Quick, lets get Kenshiro a sword! awesome

Originally posted by Martian_mind
And yet the sword went through him like butter.


All we know is a sword that was shown failing to go through two other people and attributed with no special properties went through Frieza with ease. Your defenses are assumptions, my point is backed by canon, ergo, I win. This is one of the most retarded statements I've read in awhile.

I guess your average joe on Rurouni Kenshin can even slay Frieza as well.

Wait no, scratch that. Yajirobe pwns Frieza. dur

Pfft who needs any of them? The farmer from the first episode of DBZ could kill him. Just get him a switch blade.

Obviously.

Seriously guys, what morons actually thought Frieza had a chance?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
You are not backed in canon in your assumption that an individual MUST be as strong as Trunks to cut through Frieza, or that the sword should have shattered on impact. That's speculation on your part.

There was a sword, it went through Frieza with ease, end of story.

Hell, how is Frieza being cut a plothole? vulnerability to slicing moves is predominant throughout the series, with moves like the destructo disk being capable of killing beings far more powerful then the individual who used the move. Basically, frieza can survive being blown up as much as he wants, a good snip has been shown on panel as all that's necessary.

I can a take a gigantic shit all over your point: in Dragonball, a villager shatters an axe on Goku's head when he walks into their home. It gives Goku a lump on his head...but not cut.

Aura Angel is right: that sword is definitely special. For all we know, it's a graphene sword (that some many nerds get raging boners about) because their timeline is in the future of a timeline that is the future of ours.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Frieza utterly stomps this thread.

Meh. You're right. I now see why you think this thread had so much lame.

Yes. It must be purged.

And actually the sword is not really special. It's just a rather horrid inconsistency.

But ****, it looked cool.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Despite it's fact? No, it's not. Very far from, in fact.

After Piccolo fused with Kami and Nail, his power level was roughly around that of first form Cell. If Nail were to fuse with 2 no name/random/weak Nameks, subsequently boosting his PL to 120,000,000 (as you stated) it would put him in a class -far- beyond that of second form Cell -- putting him in the same league as SSJ Vegeta/Trunks AFTER they exited the hyperbolic time chamber.... Which is utterly ridiculous, and completely contradicted by feats/Piccolo's on panel fusion history (something you seem to be ignoring.)

Originally posted by dadudemon
When piccolo fused again, he was somewhere between SSJ and FPSSJ. He was stronger than 16 but equal to 17. 17 man handled 2 or more SSJs like they were nothing. So, yeah, he had BETTER be between those two after 3 fusions.

Piccolo was NOWHERE NEAR a FPSSJ after fusing with Kami. Again, he was on par with first form Cell -- a FPSSJ was on par with perfect form Cell. Furthermore, Piccolo was NOT stronger than 16 after fusing with Kami (as 16 was =/> first form Cell as well.) He was, however, > 17.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, Piccolo shit his pants. As fact, he didn't say he could do it (after sensing his real power) until AFTER he fused...and that was before Frieza went to form 2.

You're horrendously pwned on this point. After fusing with Nail, Piccolo also said that he could beat Frieza "no matter how strong he was" -- which was entirely wrong/clearly hyperbole, as Frieza was still in his base form at the time.

Horrendously pwned, eh? It's usually when people start feeling threatened and have nothing else left that they start throwing out insults. So thanks.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If he joined with Nail, he'd be strong enough to beat the 530,000 PL Frieza. If he joined with Kami, he'd be strong enough to beat the 530,000 PL Frieza. AKA, the progression for either fusion would be around the same. Hence my point.

If Piccolo joined with Kami OR Nail he'd be strong enough to beat base form Frieza (PL 530,000.) So how in the world you think joining with a single no name/random/weak Namek on top of that would bump Nail from a PL of 530,000+ to upwards of 120,000,000 is completely beyond me, and does nothing but prove how faulty your 'calcs' really are.

For instance, even IF Piccolo's PL would have been 2,000,000 after fusing with Nail (and it was nowhere near that, mind you) it'd still have to increase 6 times over (just by fusing with one more weaksauce Namek) to be on par with 100% final form Frieza. I wouldn't even buy off on THAT much of a power gain -- let alone the 120,000,000+ PL you're trying to accredit to to a 3-Namek fusion. Just my opinion.



Anyhow, I'm pretty much done at this point. This argument has become circular, and quite boring.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, it's not. Very far from, in fact.

After Piccolo fused with Kami and Nail, his power level was roughly around that of first form Cell. If Nail were to fuse with 2 no name/random/weak Nameks, subsequently boosting his PL to 120,000,000 (as you stated) it would put him in a class -far- beyond that of second form Cell -- putting him in the same league as SSJ Vegeta/Trunks AFTER they exited the hyperbolic time chamber.... Which is utterly ridiculous, and completely contradicted by feats/Piccolo's on panel fusion history (something you seem to be ignoring.)



Piccolo was NOWHERE NEAR a FPSSJ after fusing with Kami. Again, he was on par with first form Cell -- a FPSSJ was on par with perfect form Cell. Furthermore, Piccolo was NOT stronger than 16 after fusing with Kami (as 16 was =/> first form Cell as well.) He was, however, > 17.

After fusing with Nail, Piccolo also said that he could beat Frieza "no matter how strong he was" -- which was entirely wrong/clearly hyperbole, as Frieza was still in his base form at the time.

Horrendously pwned, eh? It's usually when people start feeling threatened and have nothing else left that they start throwing out insults. So thanks.

Hence my point.

If Piccolo joined with Kami OR Nail he'd be strong enough to beat base form Frieza (PL 530,000.) So how in the world you think joining with a single no name/random/weak Namek on top of that would bump Nail from a PL of 530,000+ to upwards of 120,000,000 is completely beyond me, and does nothing but prove how faulty your 'calcs' really are.

For instance, even IF Piccolo's PL would have been 2,000,000 after fusing with Nail (and it was nowhere near that, mind you) it'd still have to increase 6 times over (just by fusing with one more weaksauce Namek) to be on par with 100% final form Frieza. I wouldn't even buy off on THAT much of a power gain -- let alone the 120,000,000+ PL you're trying to accredit to to a 3-Namek fusion. Just my opinion.



Anyhow, I'm pretty much done at this point. This argument has become circular, and quite boring.


If anything you've stated contradicted what I've already stated, it's wrong.

Got curious and read the whole thing. You first part is so....not related to what I was talking about. It doesn't even come close to actually addressing what I've stated. It's like you're quoting the wrong person and responding to them. Underline "cell" all you want...but if you forgot about Piccolo being pretty dead even with Android 17, then you've really missed the entire point. Keep in mind, Android kicked the ass of 2 Super Saiyans like they were nothing. Also, OFFICIAL CANON: 100% Final Form Frieza: 120,000,000. SSJ Goku on Namek: 150,000,000. These are the official figures. OOOOOFFFFFIIIIICCCCCCIIIIAAAAAALLLL. Is that clear enough for you?


Additionally, first form Frieza: 530,000. Second form Frieza: A bit over 1,000,000. Third form frieza, somewhere between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000. Frieza at final form starts out IN ONLY 1%. He raises it all the way up to 100 (increasing his power by a factor of 100).

Do the math.


100*1,000,000 = What? What does that equal? Is it something close to 120,000,000?


The answer is obvious. Why did you not know this? Because you've been reading fan-sites that have been WRONG

How the fan sites got it wrong when it was very easy to do the math...I don't know. You'd think just adding two 0's at the end of 1 million would be good enough, right? I just don't get it.

Piccolo, third fusion....he was definitely much stronger than Frieza. Much much stronger. So strong that he would make a regular SSJ look weak, just the same as Android 17 did.

You really just typed a bunch of stuff that added nothing to our discussion. It is you who are circular in your arguments. You're not really contradicting me in most of your replies: you're just typing stuff about DBZ that is slightly related to my points. Somehow saying that Piccolo was on par with the full powered first form of cell is supposed to suffice as a contradiction to Piccolo being on part with Android 17? Not even. All you did was state more facts about Piccolo, but it does not even come close to a contradiction.


Also, being horrendously pwned is not an insult.


And, yes, I showed quite clearly how the power scaling works. 20,000, then around 1,000,000. Then well over 120,000,000. It's pretty dang simple. It scales better with Nail's higher power.




Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And actually the sword is not really special. It's just a rather horrid inconsistency.

But ****, it looked cool.

It did. I think that was really the point of the sword. A "different" kind of fan service and boy did it work.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, OFFICIAL CANON: 100% Final Form Frieza: 120,000,000. SSJ Goku on Namek: 150,000,000. These are the official figures. OOOOOFFFFFIIIIICCCCCCIIIIAAAAAALLLL. Is that clear enough for you? Can you post this official source, please? Because if the source in question IS official, and DOES say that full power Frieza's PL was 120,000,000, then it would certainly clear up the confusion on all ends.

But I, for one, have NEVER seen figures that high for Frieza. That's why I need to see this official end all/be all evidence before I'll believe what you are saying. No offense intended.

Originally posted by Galan007
Can you post this official source, please?

Not only have the scans been posted on the internet for quite some time...they've been posted on KMC before, as well.

I have a hard time making any effort to Google search for you the official power levels listed in the Daizenshuus when you could have done it yourself. This, I think, is why people are growing tired of our conversations.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because if the source in question IS official,

It definitely is.



Also, you don't even need the official Daizenshuu listings to know that Frieza was definitely over 100,000,000 based on simple percentages.


Originally posted by Galan007
and DOES say that full power Frieza's PL was 120,000,000, then it would certainly clear up the confusion on all ends.

There's no confusion on this end.

Originally posted by Galan007
But I, for one, have NEVER seen figures that high for Frieza.

Because you're using the late 90s early 2000s American fan site listing: none of which are accurate or even match up, mathematically, with: the manga, anime, and official Daizenshuu 7 listing.


Originally posted by Galan007
That's why I need to see this official end all/be all evidence before I'll believe what you are saying. No offense intended.

Really? You'll give this up, entirely, because all of your points hinged on very low power level ratings?


Cool. I am convinced now to look it up for you:

http://www.kanzentai.com/guide/bp/guide/d7-p83.png

http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=guide


And here's where the misconception about the power levels began (it's explained quite well):

Cool beans. I didn't realize their PL's were so high.

Still dont believe a 3-Namek fusion would have that level of power, though -- even if they had the chance to do so here (which they likely wouldn't.) But I appreciate the scan nonetheless.

So what is being argued?

That when Namekians fuse, their power levels multiply with eachother's?

Personally I just have a hard time believing that Piccolo's PL would have jumped from < 2,000,000 to upwards of 120,000,000 just by fusing with an additional no name Namek after he'd already fused with Nail. That's more than a 60x increase in power.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool beans. I didn't realize their PL's were so high.

Still dont believe a 3-Namek fusion would have that level of power, though -- even if they had the chance to do so here (which they likely wouldn't.) But I appreciate the scan nonetheless.

We agree, there, that 3 fusions would not get completed in time.

I'm under the assumption that Frieza has a scouter. One fusion would cause Frieza's scouter to go haywire.

Originally posted by Galan007
Personally I just have a hard time believing that Piccolo's PL would have jumped from < 2,000,000 to upwards of 120,000,000 just by fusing with an additional no name Namek after he'd already fused with Nail. That's more than a 60x increase in power.

There were several other Namekians that were around 3000.

If Nail, who was stronger than Piccolo when they fused, fused with some of the other more powerful Namekians (the ones in the 3000s), they would be a good boost...but not as high as the fusion with Nail and Piccolo.


Again, Piccolo was only on King Kai's planet for just a few days. Goku trained on King Kai's planet for 152 days and only went from 460 to 8000. Piccolo did not have nearly enough time to train to make a large power boost, even if you consider it a ratio rather than a time linear/gradual power boost.


If we do it by a ratio, Goku's power increased 17.39 times over, over the course of 152 days. Divide each day by 17.39 to come up with the power increase factor that each day gave him: .11.

So apply that to the 5 days Piccolo stayed on King Kai's planet:

His power level jumps up to 5898, not 20,000.

So even if I get generous and apply a power leveling ratio instead of just an arbitrary number, it still does not make Piccolo anywhere near 20,000 in power level.


I like the 20,000 number, though, because it allows for a power boost while traveling on Snake Road in addition to working on King Kai's planet with the Z-Warriors. I say this because Goku didn't just train with speed and martial arts: he also spent some time training for the Kaio Ken and Spirit Bomb. How much? Well, the manga clearly shows Goku fighting hand to hand with King Kai towards the very end of his training in a "collage" towards the very end of his stay, so it doesn't appear that Goku relented much on doing anything but hard training with King Kai.



So, really, I should relent and say that Piccolo's power was probably closer to 10,000 rather than 20,000 when he left King Kai's planet...assuming Piccolo trained harder than Goku for only the 5 days that he was there.



Knowing that...and knowing that his power jumped from 10,000-20,000 all the way to around 1,000,000 after merging with Nail, that's a giant power increase from 50-100 times. Permanent fusion is supposed to be stronger than the fusion dance and the fusion dance greatly increases the power beyond just the simple addition of each person's power (meaning, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.) So it should be no wonder than Namekian fusion is a giant boost in power. This would also explain why Piccolo's power increased 50-100 fold when he fused with Kami: he went from being in the low single digit millions to definitely stronger than any regular SSJ.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We agree, there, that 3 fusions would not get completed in time.

I'm under the assumption that Frieza has a scouter. One fusion would cause Frieza's scouter to go haywire.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So it should be no wonder than Namekian fusion is a giant boost in power. This would also explain why Piccolo's power increased 50-100 fold when he fused with Kami: he went from being in the low single digit millions to definitely stronger than any regular SSJ. I absolutely agree that Namekian fusions denote a very large boost in power -- I've never contested that much. The only part I disagree with is that Piccolo's PL would have went from below 2 million to beyond 120 million had he fused with another random Namek (like I said earlier, that's well over a 60x increase in power.) I think if it were that easy to reach such enormous powers, the Namekian warriors Frieza and Vegeta steamrolled through would have opted to do so, rather than get killed. /shrug

And you may disagree (probably will :P) but I don't really like to count Kami/Piccolo's merger (or re-merger) as a 'standard' Namekian fusion. Imo, it was made pretty clear during the Cell saga that the powerup Piccolo gained upon fusing back with Kami was significantly above any other boosts he had gained before, or could gain otherwise.

Oh, and I'd also like to retract a previous comment I made. 'Kamiccolo' was -not- more powerful than 17, and -not- equal to 16 (just read through that saga again.)

Base form Cell (not at full power) < Kamiccolo = 17 < 16 = Base form Cell (at full power).

About Piccolo's PL, when he got to Namek I was under the impression he was a lot stronger than the 10,000 range, since when Nail saw him he was amazed by his power and compared him to the old school Namekian warriors who he took after.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
About Piccolo's PL, when he got to Namek I was under the impression he was a lot stronger than the 10,000 range, since when Nail saw him he was amazed by his power and compared him to the old school Namekian warriors who he took after.

Nail commented on Piccolo being strong and said he was impressed.


http://www.mangareader.net/105-2944-1/dragon-ball/chapter-295.html


Nail was trained in the "secret" arts of Namekian warriors and this may be why Nail is impressed with Piccolo- a Piccolo who had got that strong without having gotten the specialized Namekian training. Nail also sees, almost immediately, that he is a split Namekian. Nail just is dang smart and was paying Piccolo a compliment.


His actual power cannot be higher than 10,000 when he got to Namek, based on numbers. We can give him a boost, just to be nice and that would put him closer to 20,000.



Think about it...Goku jumped from 8000 to 90,000 on his 6 day trip to Namek. He did so by pushing himself to the brink of death and eating a senzu bean 4 times. There's no way that Piccolo could have increased his power by a much larger margin than Goku did in only 5 days on King Kai's planet which only had 10 times Earth's gravity. Not only that but Goku had a higher starting level than Piccolo did: Piccolo had a power of 3500 at his death.

Namekians do not possess the same "stronger after a near-death experience" ability that Saiyan's have. So not only could his 5 day training on King Kai's planet being very marginal, they wouldn't have boosted him very much.



Also, Piccolo noticed all of the others but they did not notice his power, meaning, he wasn't strong enough to register from that far away while they were distracted.

When Nail met Piccolo he was "impressed" by his power, and also noted that he was "VERY strong". And considering Nail himself had a PL of 42,000 -and- he'd just battled base form Frieza who had a PL of 530,000, it seems to me that the intention was to have Piccolo at least on Nail's level (if not beyond). Personally, I don't think Nail would have claimed that a power not even half at large as his own was "VERY strong", but that's just me. /shrug

Regardless, since nothing was explicitly stated pertaining to Piccolo's PL pre-Nail-fusion, there's really no way to know where he was numerically. It's really just a guess on all sides.

Originally posted by Galan007
When Nail met Piccolo he was "impressed" by his power, and also noted that he was "VERY strong". And considering Nail himself had a PL of 42,000 -and- he'd just battled base form Frieza who had a PL of 530,000, it seems to me that the intention was to have Piccolo at least on Nail's level (if not beyond). Personally, I don't think Nail would have claimed that a power not even half at large as his own was "VERY strong", but that's just me. /shrug

He also did not say that Piccolo was stronger than himself. He also said, very clearly, that he wasn't strong enough to defeat Frieza.

Also, Piccolo was not at Nail's level. Unless you're suggesting that he has an ability to gain power faster than a Saiyan brought to near death 4 times in a row.

Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless, since nothing was explicitly stated pertaining to Piccolo's PL pre-Nail-fusion, there's really no way to know where he was numerically. It's really just a guess on all sides.

No, we can guess within a few thousand of where he was, numerically.

Here's a more logical explanation for why Nail was impressed with his power:

"Nail was trained in the 'secret' arts of Namekian warriors and this may be why Nail is impressed with Piccolo- a Piccolo who had got that strong without having gotten the specialized Namekian training.

Namekians do not possess the same "stronger after a near-death experience" ability that Saiyan's have. So not only could his 5 day training on King Kai's planet being very marginal, they wouldn't have boosted him very much."

If you go by a logical numeric measure, Piccolo is somewhere between 3500 and 10,000. If you want to get generous, you can give him 20,000.

Since 20,000 works out, much more nicely, to give him a power much higher, but not gigantically higher, than SSJ Goku (when Goku fought Frieza), then we see that 20,000 works out quite well.


Again, no one on Namek was a warrior class except for Nail. The others, at best, were in the 3000-400 range. Piccolo is also MUCH younger than most of them: he's only 10-11 years old when he gets to Namek. Having obtained, even though he's a warrior class, a power of anything over 3000, would be an amazing accomplishment.


Additionally, by you logic, if someone compliments another on them being strong, that makes them stronger than the one paying the compliment. That's not the case, at all. Goku pretty much tells everyone that they are strong in one way or another: it's more of a respect thing.


Correction: Piccolo was 9 when he fought Frieza. He was 3 when he fought Goku in the Dragonball Tournie. 5 years passed between the tournie and the Radditz fight. Another year passed after that when they fought Nappa and Vegeta and only a couple of months pass after that before he fighst Frieza...so he was only 9.

You're adding more to my post than what I said. I didn't say Piccolo "was" or "had to have been" on Nail's level. I simply gave my opinion, based on how -I- took Nail's statement(s) in that scene... Same as you're doing. So unless you know of an official source which explicitly says "Piccolo's power level when he first arrived on Namek = X", all we really can do is speculate on the matter. My opinion is no more correct/incorrect than yours.

No reason to start getting defensive.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're adding more to my post than what I said. I didn't say Piccolo "was" or "had to have been" on Nail's level. I simply gave my opinion, based on how -I- took Nail's statement(s) in that scene... Same as you're doing. So unless you know of an official source which explicitly says "Piccolo's power level when he first arrived on Namek = X", all we really can do is speculate on the matter. My opinion is no more correct/incorrect than yours.


No, that's wrong. There are actually correct ways to go about coming up with estimations that would be very close.


There's no way that Piccolo could have gotten even remotely as powerful as Goku did during his (Piccolo's) visit to the Kai's planet. That puts him far less than 80,000 because that's where Goku was.

We know he died at 3500 against Nappa.

So that puts him at least above 3500.


That's an exact range that he has to fall under: that's not some sort of baseless guess.


In order for Piccolo to be anywhere close to 20,000 after only 5 days of King Kai planet training, he would have had to have experienced one "Saiyan Near Death and recovery" experience because Vegeta went from 18,000 to 24,000 and those were exact numbers. We know that it is impossible for Namekians to do that: they do not have the Saiyan recovery "trick."


Additionally, we know how much time Goku spent on King Kai's planet and how much his power grew. Doing linear growth netted a very small power increase. Even doing a ratio growth for Piccolo still netted a small power increase.

That's neither baseless nor is it wrong: they are two estimations based on facts we know. Baseless would be guessing how strong Goku was in FPSSJ mode. Even then, that's still not a completely baseless guess as we do have a base with which to make guesses on.

Hmmm....Ah, here we go: baseless would be assigning Cell a power level when he FIRST emerged.


Anyway, I do admit that 20,000 is arbitrary as all logic and math points to a value of less than 10,000. It's baseless for me to assign him a power of 20,000, actually. I should just drop it to between 5000 and 10,000 as that would not be baseless and would capture his range perfectly.

Originally posted by Galan007
No reason to start getting defensive.

There's a difference between trying to talk reason into someone and getting defensive.

^ Again, that is all just your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

My opinion, based on Nail's statement(s) regarding Piccolo's power, is that Toriyama intended he to be more powerful than you're giving him credit for when he first arrived on Namek (hence Nail's "you're VERY strong" comment). But again, that is just the impression I personally got from the scene. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Again, that is all just your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

No, it's not. I outlined which portions were opinion and which ones could not be opinion.

Originally posted by Galan007
My opinion, based on Nail's statement(s) regarding Piccolo's power, is that Toriyama intended he to be more powerful than you're giving him credit for when he first arrived on Namek (hence Nail's "you're VERY strong" comment). But again, that is just the impression I personally got from the scene. Nothing more, nothing less.

But that's impossible because Piccolo:

1. Does not have the Saiyan recovery ability.
2. Only got to train on King Kai's planet for 5 days.


So, no, it is impossible and it is a fact that Piccolo is no where near Goku's level of power of 80,000.


Also, Goku told Uub that he was very strong...but Goku could have EASILY mopped the floor with him: like I said, it's a form of respect and a compliment. Also, Nail could have been relieved that someone strong came around that he could merge with because he was the strongest Namekian on the planet Namek and no one came even close to his power so he was probably relieved that someone over 5000 in power found him so he could merge with them to get revenge on Frieza...which that is exactly that case because that's exactly what he says a few panels later.



Let's recap: Goku trained under 100x gravity for 6 days. Piccolo trained under 10x. Goku jumped from a base of 8000 to 80,000. Piccolo jumped from 3500 to X. We do not know what X is.


We know that Nail was 42,000, peak.


How did Goku get to 80,000?


Almost killing himself a minimum of 4 times and using the Saiyan recovery ability.

Fact: Piccolo would not be able to even remotely come close to Goku's power level.


Any conclusion beyond just a couple of thousand increase in Piccolo's power level would be wrong and contradictory to the facts in the Manga.



Where do you think Piccolo's power was? And why did you conclude that?

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, it's not. Stopped here.

As I keep reiterating: since there are absolutely -no- official figures regarding Piccolo's PL when he first arrived on Namek (if you know of any PLEASE post them so we can end this boring discussion), anything you come up with -however logical you think it may be- is still just your opinion. It quite literally cannot be anything else.

That said, if you think Piccolo was in the 10,000 range, that's fine. It's your opinion... Just like it's my opinion that his PL was beyond that, based on how I interpreted the narration.

Agree to disagree?

Originally posted by Galan007
Stopped here.

As I keep reiterating: since there are absolutely -no- official figures regarding Piccolo's PL when he first arrived on Namek (if you know of any PLEASE post them so we can end this boring discussion), anything you come up with -however logical you think it may be- is still just your opinion. It quite literally cannot be anything else.

You do not need official figures to actually come to a 100% factual conclusion.

Case-in-point: we know Goku's base power level, at max, when arriving on Namek was 90,000. Yet, his highest reading was 180,000. How do we know that? Cause he was using Kaio Ken which briefly doubles your power.

That said, if you think Piccolo was in the 10,000 range, that's fine. It's your opinion... Just like it's my opinion that his PL was beyond that, based on how I interpreted the narration.

Originally posted by Galan007
Agree to disagree?

No. I cannot agree to disagree as you have an ill-conceived idea on how strong Piccolo was.


If you can admit that Piccolo wasn't anywhere even close to 90,000 and was between 10,000-20,000, we can agree...despite that fact that the numbers show that Piccolo could not be any stronger than 10,000.


At that point, I would agree to disagree because I am willing to give Piccolo a bump.

Ok, what we need to do is find the cupboard from "Indian in the cupbord" get a frieza figure, and thousands and thousands of sayans and namak figures, and make them all alive, and pit them against each other.....wait..there is very little chance we would survive this, never mind!

Regardless of how exponential the namekian fusion is, if they ALL fused, or even several of the most powerful, there is very little chance that frieza would win this. Especially, if he goes down even one form.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Ok, what we need to do is find the cupboard from "Indian in the cupbord" get a frieza figure, and thousands and thousands of sayans and namak figures, and make them all alive, and pit them against each other.....wait..there is very little chance we would survive this, never mind!

Regardless of how exponential the namekian fusion is, if they ALL fused, or even several of the most powerful, there is very little chance that frieza would win this. Especially, if he goes down even one form.

Yes, if he goes down one form, just Nail and some no-name would be powerful enough to take on his 3rd form.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That said, if you think Piccolo was in the 10,000 range, that's fine. It's your opinion... Just like it's my opinion that his PL was beyond that, based on how I interpreted the narration. You finally admit it. Awesome.

Originally posted by Galan007
You finally admit it. Awesome.

I admit that I want to give Piccolo a bump up to 20,000, despite it being almost completely wrong.


What level do you think Piccolo is at, btw? (Not at the end of DB, but right when he gets to Namek.)

Originally posted by dadudemon
What level do you think Piccolo is at, btw? (Not at the end of DB, but right when he gets to Namek.) Like I mentioned earlier, I got the impression that he was around Nail's level based on the narration of the scene. Now before you start typing up some long drawn out response, please understand that I already know you disagree with me, because that high of a PL doesn't fit into your theoretical equations... And that's fine (I'd rather not continue arguing the exact same thing over and over.)

It's just my opinion that the writer's intention was to have Piccolo around that level, just like you feel he was below it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I mentioned earlier, I got the impression that he was around Nail's level based on the narration of the scene. Now before you start typing up some long drawn out response, please understand that I already know you disagree with me, because that high of a PL doesn't fit into your theoretical equations... And that's fine (I'd rather not continue arguing the exact same thing over and over.)

It's just my opinion that the writer's intention was to have Piccolo around that level, just like you feel he was below it.

I agree with this as well. Why would Nail even mention Piccolo power level if it wasn't either on his level or superior? Doesn't make sense to me. Then we have Piccolo sensing Friezas power level and was still heading over to face him.

I wouldn't fuss with him though because his mind is already made up but again, I agree, Piccolo power level had to be far up there for numerous of reasons.

Piccolo arriving at the Namek at a power level of 20,000 would put him below Gohan. King Kai would surely have stopped him by saying that he would be completely useless if that were the case. I'd say he was stronger than Nail though not by much.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Piccolo arriving at the Namek at a power level of 20,000 would put him below Gohan. King Kai would surely have stopped him by saying that he would be completely useless if that were the case. I'd say he was stronger than Nail though not by much.

Yep...

I don't know HOW it happened so fast (Piccolo power level increasing so drastically) but majority of his training took place off panel anyways.

I agree with this though... Piccolo was pretty far up the chain when he hit Namek.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I mentioned earlier, I got the impression that he was around Nail's level based on the narration of the scene. Now before you start typing up some long drawn out response, please understand that I already know you disagree with me, because that high of a PL doesn't fit into your theoretical equations... And that's fine (I'd rather not continue arguing the exact same thing over and over.)

It's just my opinion that the writer's intention was to have Piccolo around that level, just like you feel he was below it.

Impossible for him to have been at Nail's level, as I've indicated, already.


Do you have evidence that Piccolo could jump from 3500 to 42,000 in the span of 5 days (because that's how long he had to train on King Kai's planet.) We DO have evidence of how quickly someone can progress in their power on King Kai's planet, so those automatically takes a crap on the label "theoretical".

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Piccolo arriving at the Namek at a power level of 20,000 would put him below Gohan.

I do not understand how this provides some sort of counter-argument to the "high-level" Piccolo discussion.

We do know that Gohan, after getting "unlocked" by Guru, was at 14,000.

We also know that Gohan's power rose over 20,000 when he as charging up his Masenko against Recoome.

We also know that Gohan's battle power rose to 200,000 right before fighting Frieza.

So, yeah, Piccolo would have been as much as 10x weaker than Frieza. By why is that? That's beacuse he's not a Saiyan and doesn't have the special recover ability.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
King Kai would surely have stopped him by saying that he would be completely useless if that were the case. I'd say he was stronger than Nail though not by much.

King Kia DIIIID try to stop them from fighting Frieza. He told him it was futile and to avoid him like the plague. They wouldn't listen. It was true until Goku went SS, there was no one even close to being able to stop Frieza. Since Piccolo was alive, it didn't matter if he died because he'd be brought back to life.

If Piccolo was weaker than Gohan, which he was, there would be no reason for him to go to Namek. He wouldn't be able to help at all. And as we know...

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2949-6/dragon-ball/chapter-300.html

Piccolo should have been keeping an eye out for Namek from the afterlife. I just can't see Piccolo willingly going to a place where he would be worthless from the beginning.

^ I agree.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Impossible for him to have been at Nail's level, as I've indicated, already.


Do you have evidence that Piccolo could jump from 3500 to 42,000 in the span of 5 days (because that's how long he had to train on King Kai's planet.) We DO have evidence of how quickly someone can progress in their power on King Kai's planet, so those automatically takes a crap on the label "theoretical".



I do not understand how this provides some sort of counter-argument to the "high-level" Piccolo discussion.

We do know that Gohan, after getting "unlocked" by Guru, was at 14,000.

We also know that Gohan's power rose over 20,000 when he as charging up his Masenko against Recoome.

We also know that Gohan's battle power rose to 200,000 right before fighting Frieza.

So, yeah, Piccolo would have been as much as 10x weaker than Frieza. By why is that? That's beacuse he's not a Saiyan and doesn't have the special recover ability.



King Kia DIIIID try to stop them from fighting Frieza. He told him it was futile and to avoid him like the plague. They wouldn't listen. It was true until Goku went SS, there was no one even close to being able to stop Frieza. Since Piccolo was alive, it didn't matter if he died because he'd be brought back to life.

Oh we have evidence that Piccolo power level can increase significantly with minor time. How about him focusing an entire year on Gohun during the Saiyan Saga... not training himself at all (that much) and STILL was able to jump up in power from 300 to 3500 and again, he didn't even focus on himself... the training and the entire year was to make Gohun stronger.

Originally posted by carver9
Oh we have evidence that Piccolo power level can increase significantly with minor time. How about him focusing an entire year on Gohun during the Saiyan Saga... not training himself at all (that much) and STILL was able to jump up in power from 300 to 3500 and again, he didn't even focus on himself... the training and the entire year was to make Gohun stronger.


That's wrong.


He fought with Gohan quite a bit and trained like a mad man.

He raised those pyramids, as well, with just his mind, as part of his training.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If Piccolo was weaker than Gohan, which he was, there would be no reason for him to go to Namek. He wouldn't be able to help at all. And as we know...

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2949-6/dragon-ball/chapter-300.html

Piccolo should have been keeping an eye out for Namek from the afterlife. I just can't see Piccolo willingly going to a place where he would be worthless from the beginning.

But, like I said, we KNOW for a fact that Piccolo would have been useless and King Kai even told them/him not to go. Even Gohan knew that Piccolo was not strong enough because he was hoping Piccolo had a plan.

They/he would have rather died fighting than watch everyone die/get destroyed.

Dadudemon you just used filler in your post.

Which means that, according to filler, even Yamcha was stronger than Recoome.

Piccolo is stronger than Yamcha.

Recoome is a little stronger than Nail (43,000 compared to 40,000).

Therefore, Piccolo is stronger than Nail.

Who is stronger than Gohan.

According to filler anyway. estahuh

Originally posted by NemeBro
Dadudemon you just used filler in your post.

Which means that, according to filler, even Yamcha was stronger than Recoome.

Did I or did King Kai really say not to fight Frieza?

Oh, right, he did and that was in the manga.



I believe I even posted that in this thread, too. Shame on you.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Piccolo is stronger than Yamcha.

Sure...

Originally posted by NemeBro
Recoome is a little stronger than Nail (43,000 compared to 40,000).

Therefore, Piccolo is stronger than Nail.

Fail logic.

The first portion of your logic was not correct so your entire logical conclusion is illogical.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Who is stronger than Gohan.

Incorrect. When Gohan fought Frieza, his PL was 200,000. Canon source. Therefore, he was stronger than pre-Nail fused Piccolo.

Originally posted by NemeBro
According to filler anyway. estahuh

According to filler, maybe.

But, if we go by filler, that makes our dear friend, Piccolog, weaker after his fusion with Kame. That's bad.

I was joking.

Moron. 131

Rude especially considering jokes/sarcasm dont come in text? kthxbye

I feel like Toriyama intended piccolo to be around Nail's level... maybe even a bit higher.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I feel like Toriyama intended piccolo to be around Nail's level... maybe even a bit higher.

I feel he intended him to be close to Nail's level, but a little bit lower.


Based on the lengthy dialogue I've posted, it would appear Toriyama intended for it to be much lower than Nail's.

Originally posted by ImANoob
Rude especially considering jokes/sarcasm dont come in text? kthxbye

LOL. He's a bastich like that, at times. He's just playing.

Also, welcome to KMC.

Well that means he has to fight piccolo and kami.....all of the namekians including kami and nail say had he been his true self(super piccolo) he would have beaten frieza. Lol i would agree

Originally posted by yungz22
Well that means he has to fight piccolo and kami.....all of the namekians including kami and nail say had he been his true self(super piccolo) he would have beaten frieza. Lol i would agree

I somewhat agree.


Piccolo merged with Nail and Kami created super piccolo.


Based on the power jump he made by merging with Nail, alone...that's a very big jump.


So, I think he wouldn't be super piccolo. He'd be weaker than the form that resulted from merging with Nail because Nail was much stronger than anyone on earth up to the Frieza saga.

But even nail said had piccolo come as his true self frieza would not be a problem....true jus kami and piccolo would be a tad bit smaller than kami piccol and nail. Kamiccolo's strength is still way higher than frieza

Originally posted by yungz22
But even nail said had piccolo come as his true self frieza would not be a problem....true jus kami and piccolo would be a tad bit smaller than kami piccol and nail. Kamiccolo's strength is still way higher than frieza
Yeah I agree. Guru said that he should be able to beat any saiyan, but maybe would lose to a super saiyan. While "trinity" piccolo, was stronger than a super saiyan, by a bit. So I guess that bit, is about Nail's contribution.

I would argue "trinity" Piccolo was signifigantly stronger than Goku when he first went SSJ.

Vegeta as a SSJ was stronger by a fair amount than that Goku, and 18 utterly crushed him. 17 was even stronger than 18, but was at best equal in power to Piccolo, though 17 had the advantage of limitless energy reserves.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I would argue "trinity" Piccolo was signifigantly stronger than Goku when he first went SSJ.

Vegeta as a SSJ was stronger by a fair amount than that Goku, and 18 utterly crushed him. 17 was even stronger than 18, but was at best equal in power to Piccolo, though 17 had the advantage of limitless energy reserves.
Sure but we aren't using the weakest SSJ as our benchmark... I mean, obviously he didn't know what a SSJ really was, but presumably Guru was imagining beings who had already been in that state, didn't just spontaneously manifest it on earth. A fully awakened SSJ is way stronger than Piccolo even with both merges.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Sure but we aren't using the weakest SSJ as our benchmark... I mean, obviously he didn't know what a SSJ really was, but presumably Guru was imagining beings who had already been in that state, didn't just spontaneously manifest it on earth. A fully awakened SSJ is way stronger than Piccolo even with both merges. Um, no.

Basically the strongest "SSJ" seen is Vegeta, who was still signifigantly weaker than Piccolo.

ASSJ, USSJ, and FSSJ, are ascensions BEYOND SSJ.

Stuff.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Um, no.

Basically the strongest "SSJ" seen is Vegeta, who was still signifigantly weaker than Piccolo.

ASSJ, USSJ, and FSSJ, are ascensions BEYOND SSJ.

Stuff.
They are still SSJ1, just modified forms.

Originally posted by King Kandy
They are still SSJ1, just modified forms. but they are all stonger than an average ssj

I know about the Saiyans, but exactly how much stronger did Piccolo become than 17 after the hyperbolic time chamber? Must've been by quite a bit, with as long as he lasted against the Cell Juniors and all like Trunks and Vegeta. Regardless, was ghey how he became obsolete in the Buu saga.

I would go as far as to say that black hair Goku after getting out of the hyperbolic time chamber was more powerful than a average Super Saiyan.

Originally posted by King Kandy
They are still SSJ1, just modified forms. I guess in the same way the Golden Oozaru is still an Oozaru.

Freiza willl absolutely WRECK the namekians and sayians.

Both Nail and King Vegeta, the most powerful of their race, could, literally, not scratch frieza. Stompage does not come in a more pure form.

And I know its freiza so he is bound to boast about himself...but he said he was 500,000x stronger than nail.

Bottom line is frieza destroys them in base form, much less top form.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Freiza willl absolutely WRECK the namekians and sayians.

Both Nail and King Vegeta, the most powerful of their race, could, literally, not scratch frieza. Stompage does not come in a more pure form.

And I know its freiza so he is bound to boast about himself...but he said he was 500,000x stronger than nail.

Bottom line is frieza destroys them in base form, much less top form. Freiza cant beat kamicollo

Originally posted by yungz22
Freiza cant beat kamicollo Who?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Who?


I think he is referring to Piccolo after Piccolo fused with kami. The same Piccolo who fought Android 17.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
I think he is referring to Piccolo after Piccolo fused with kami. The same Piccolo who fought Android 17. yea