Luke Skywalker, Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade VS Kit Fisto,Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar

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NowYouRemember
Respectively, this will be Kyle Katarn from Mysteries of the Sith (Jedi Knight game before Jedi Outcast) and Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade from The Last Command (The final book of the Thrawn Trilogy) against Fisto, Tiin and Kolar - in a duel to the death inside Palpatine's office just like in Revenge of the Sith.

Which group wins this?

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

NowYouRemember
*Cough*

truejedi
hmm, pretty sure that Luke at this point would be able to come very close to the solo here. This is after shadows of mindor.

NowYouRemember
Originally posted by truejedi
hmm, pretty sure that Luke at this point would be able to come very close to the solo here. This is after shadows of mindor.

Yet even at that point, he still couldn't defeat his clone or Joruus C'Boath - Mara Jade had to do both, herself.

Kolar, Fisto and Tiin were literally the greatest swordsmen in the Order just beneath the likes of Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Kenobi.

NowYouRemember
I'd also venture to say that it's actually either Kyle or Mara who is the strongest fighter in the group, at this point in time.

ares834
lol... Luke Skywalker has already defeated Vader by this point in time and he is, IMO, beyond either Kyle or Mara at any point in time. Also Mara Jade was a terrible duelest during the Thrawn Triliogy.

NowYouRemember
Originally posted by ares834
lol... Luke Skywalker has already defeated Vader by this point in time and he is, IMO, beyond either Kyle or Mara at any point in time. Also Mara Jade was a terrible duelest during the Thrawn Triliogy.

Vader arguably let him win, and also, Mara, as terrible as some might say, was able to defeat C'boath and Luke's clone, when Luke himself failed to do so.

Also, at this point, Kyle and Mara had both succeeded in braving one of the most dangerous and secret Sith Temples in existance - which involved fighting through numerous Sith traps, including many lightsaber-weilding adversaries.

So it puts Kyle or Mara slightly above Luke at this point. smokin'

EDIT: Mm, not let him win. But y'know, held back, 'cause he realized he loved his tow-headed boy, and didn't really want him to get hurt, the whole time.

EDIT: And Kyle had also defeated a Dark Jedi immersed in Sith teachings, who was stated to rival Vader in both power and skill - and not only that, but fought this man in an all-out duel, even when this man was infused with the souls and power of thousands of Jedi.

So. smokin'

truejedi
Originally posted by NowYouRemember
Vader arguably let him win, and also, Mara, as terrible as some might say, was able to defeat C'boath and Luke's clone, when Luke himself failed to do so.


Wasn't it a matter of Luke couldn't kill the clone because he couldn't bring himself to do it? (Since it was him?) And I thought leia had something to do with the death of C'boath as well?

This Luke has already killed DE sidious, don't forget, and been described as a ridiculously powerful force user in Shadows of Mindor. (he was on a whole new level that Vastor couldn't touch (same vastor that Windu said he couldn't beat on his best day)

Also, C'baaoth (not C'baoth is nothing to be laughed at. His feat of using the force to hold a missile unmoving in the air for many seconds before destroying it puts him at a force level only challangeable by Yoda, Sidious, and maybe Dooku at the time of Outbound Flight.




I will agree that Kyle is a beast. No argument here. Less so for Mara Jade. She couldn't touch Vader, whose level Luke has already surpassed as given above. This isn't a matter of saying Luke could solo because his teammates suck, I'm saying Luke could solo, and therefore this is a ridiculously lopsided fight. Maybe Kyle could solo as well, though his opponents in JK are not held in nearly as high regard as Luke's opponents.



Source for Jerec rivaling Vader? Cause that'd be a really nice feather in Kyle's cap, and I'm a fan of Kyle. course, barely trained Luke beat Vader himself... so Kyle beating someone to rival Vader doesn't give Kyle an edge on a much more powerful version of Luke.

ares834

NowYouRemember
Wasn't it a matter of Luke couldn't kill the clone because he couldn't bring himself to do it? (Since it was him?) And I thought leia had something to do with the death of C'boath as well?


Mm, I don't believe so. I remember Luke being stated as being rusty because he hadn't had a sword fight in a while, and the clone got the better of him.
Then Mara stepped up to the plate.


This Luke has already killed DE sidious, don't forget, and been described as a ridiculously powerful force user in Shadows of Mindor. (he was on a whole new level that Vastor couldn't touch (same vastor that Windu said he couldn't beat on his best day)

Also, C'baaoth (not C'baoth is nothing to be laughed at. His feat of using the force to hold a missile unmoving in the air for many seconds before destroying it puts him at a force level only challangeable by Yoda, Sidious, and maybe Dooku at the time of Outbound Flight.


Hm, Are you sure that he had already fought Sidious by this time? Wasn't that a bit later? The powder has fogged my memory a tad..
And Mace couldn't defeat Vastor because:
1. Vastor was in his prime and had high mental morale, and a cause to fight, and die for.
2. The bulk of his power stemmed from his connection to Haruun Kal, because of his nature as a Lor Pelek.

To my knowledge, in Mindor, he was more of a broken old man in comparison to how he had been, and also did not fight Luke on Haruun Kal? (Do correct me if I'm wrong about that)

So, two different Vastors. So it would make sense a young and relatively inexperienced young man would beat a worn-out husk like the Vastor he faced.
The same Vastor Mace had fought, would beat Luke down, rape him, and then eat the remains..

I will agree that Kyle is a beast. No argument here. Less so for Mara Jade. She couldn't touch Vader, whose level Luke has already surpassed as given above. This isn't a matter of saying Luke could solo because his teammates suck, I'm saying Luke could solo, and therefore this is a ridiculously lopsided fight. Maybe Kyle could solo as well, though his opponents in JK are not held in nearly as high regard as Luke's opponents.

Luke's level hadn't so much surpassed hers - otherwise he could have taken his clone - or at least C'baaoth, who Luke failed to beat, but Mara managed to overcome.

Source for Jerec rivaling Vader? Cause that'd be a really nice feather in Kyle's cap, and I'm a fan of Kyle. course, barely trained Luke beat Vader himself... so Kyle beating someone to rival Vader doesn't give Kyle an edge on a much more powerful version of Luke.


Mm, keep in mind that average Jerec was said to rival Vader - after Jerec absorbed the souls from the Valley of the Jedi, he was much more powerful afterwards, and that was still a fight where he didn't hold back anything.
Vader, in contrast, held back on his beloved boy.

In regards to the quote about Jerec rivaling Vader, I'm currently looking to the manual to the game, which includes the Bio on Jerec, which I remember a piece stating clearly: "embrace of the dark side gave him powers that rivaled Vader's ."

I'll find that manual for you, to further clarify. smokin'

NowYouRemember

Pwned
Its not C'Baaoth, its C'Baoth. The name change was in the U's of both names, Luuke and Joruus C'Baoth, compared to Luke and Jorus C'Baoth.

Also, the clones were losers because police label anyone attacking Chuck Norris as a Code 45-1, a suicide.

NowYouRemember
Originally posted by Pwned
Its not C'Baaoth, its C'Baoth. The name change was in the U's of both names, Luuke and Joruus C'Baoth, compared to Luke and Jorus C'Baoth.

Also, the clones were losers because police label anyone attacking Chuck Norris as a Code 45-1, a suicide.

EDIT: Crack. smokin'

And yes, attacking Mr.Norris is suicide - unless your name happens to be Bruce Lee - then it's just a buffet where you rip Norris' leg open and suck on the bone-marrow. Yum.

ares834

Pwned
Chuck let Bruce Lee "kill" him, but it didnt actually kill him, as he is not mortal.

Also, at this point in time, Mara isnt on the level of these jeedai. Luke and Kyle stand a chance, as they are beasts. Mandalore the Bearded (Kyle) could kill any one of these in a one on one fight, i believe, as im pretty sure he cannonically used dark side powers that will make a win. Wormie (Luke) can take any of them cuz hes a OPSOB. Mara can hold one back, but will eventually die.

NowYouRemember
Originally posted by Pwned
Chuck let Bruce Lee "kill" him, but it didnt actually kill him, as he is not mortal.

Also, at this point in time, Mara isnt on the level of these jeedai. Luke and Kyle stand a chance, as they are beasts. Mandalore the Bearded (Kyle) could kill any one of these in a one on one fight, i believe, as im pretty sure he cannonically used dark side powers that will make a win. Wormie (Luke) can take any of them cuz hes a OPSOB. Mara can hold one back, but will eventually die.

Bruce could kill Chuckie anyway.

Yeah, I 'spose Kyle could fire a Destruction blast and kill one of 'em.
But one of the others might gut Luke..

And Mara..hm.

She beat folks at the time that Luke couldn't..

If she and Kyle pair together and fight as Master and Apprentice in an intelligent way - they might survive. smokin'

NowYouRemember
Alright, reading.. smokin'

Pwned
She beat them because Luuke was blinded and could barely see, im pretty sure C'baoth died when the place collapsed on him


This was the warehouse on Wayland right? The one in the mountain?

Im just checkin, its been a while since i read those books

NowYouRemember

NowYouRemember
Originally posted by Pwned
She beat them because Luuke was blinded and could barely see, im pretty sure C'baoth died when the place collapsed on him


This was the warehouse on Wayland right? The one in the mountain?

Im just checkin, its been a while since i read those books


Same. But I remember Mara snackin' on C'baoth's guts.

'Course that could be the Crack, but still. smokin'

We'll have to wait 'til the boy checks it.

Mhm, Wayland, but not Wayland Utani. wink

ares834
Originally posted by NowYouRemember
Clone still had Luke beat. And Mara saved his butt.

And clearly she could not do it on his own.



Doesn't matter.



long quote...


The center was hollow. Dirt fell away from the edge and avalanched into the depression below. Jan arrived at Kyle's side, looked into the mound, and was amazed by what she saw - Jerec, quivering with the power that coursed through his body, light spilling from empty eye sockets. His voice came from everywhere at once.

"Yes! Join me! Share the power!"

Kyle moved forward; Jan grabbed for his arm and missed. The Jedi jumped, fell through the air, and absorbed the impact with his legs. His lightsaber sizzled as he turned it on.

"Yessss," the chorus chanted, "free us that we might merge with the Force!"

Jerec chose to ignore the lightsaber and the spirit voices. He spoke without turning.

"Your efforts are misguided. Can you hear them? Whining and sniveling? Is that what you seek to become? Another voice in a chorus of weakness?"

Jerec turned, extended his hand, and triggered an explosion. Kyle was propelled up and out of the chamber and onto the Valley floor. The impact knocked the air from his lungs.

He was lying there, trying to breathe, when an icy wind swept through the Valley. It circled slowly at first, as if gathering energy, before steadily picking up speed. Dust and other bits of debris were vacuumed up and whirled about. Voices wailed as mist billowed and the temperature continued to drop.

Kyle made it to one knee as Jerec levitated up and out of the mound. Voices moaned as large chunks of the inner mound and paving stones followed him up. Kyle stood, heart pounding, staring upward. What could he do? Jerec had claimed the Valley's power, had already harnessed it, and would soon rule what remained of the Empire. And then what?

A new Empire, worse than the first, and a whole lot bigger.

Despair threatened to pull him down. To come so far only to have failed those who counted on him was worse than death itself. The Rebel watched Jerec rise and marveled at the power the Dark Jedi had unleashed. Power waiting to be used, power that could defeat Jerec, that could pull him down...

Kyle brought himself up short. What had Jerec said? That's the second time you called on the dark side. What was the magic number, anyway? The repetitions beyond which one was changed? Was it three? Four? Five?

Suddenly, Kyle knew that the number didn't matter - that the light side offered more than enough power for any task he would be called upon to do, and that knowledge was the key.

The Jedi closed his eyes, resisted the temptation to look at the light that strobed against his eyelids, and sent a series of commands. He gathered the Force around him, shaped it into a protective cocoon, and sealed Jerec within.

Jerec felt a sense of warmth and peace as the cocoon of light formed around him. It was a wonderful sensation - and one he enjoyed, until something went wrong. The Jedi fell, struggled to stay aloft, and fell again. Something, or someone, had cut his access to the dark side of the Force...

Who? How? The Dark Jedi fought to break through and knew it was too late. The dark, nearly black column of energy that pushed up out of the mound had been severed, and he, along with the rocks that had risen with him, plummeted to the ground.

Kyle opened his eyes, saw the Dark Jedi fall, and knew he had taken the correct approach. By doing something positive, by protecting Jerec from evil, the battle had been won. The ground under Kyle's boots crunched as he approached the fallen Jerec. Though stunned and badly bruised, Jerec was otherwise uninjured. In spite of his blindness, the Dark Jedi knew that Kyle stood over him with lightsaber in hand. His own weapon lay ten meters away - but may as well have been on the far side of the planet. Having never shown mercy to others, Jerec sought none for himself.

"Strike me down and the power of the dark side will be yours! It was I who took your father's head... or have you forgotten?"

Kyle looked down at the man before him and felt a strange sense of pity. Here he was, physically powerless, but still hoping to bring Kyle over or, failing that, to secure a quick and painless death. The Rebel shook his head.

"No, I haven't forgotten, and I never will."

He extended his hand, felt the Dark Jedi's lightsaber strike the surface of his palm, and then threw the weapon to Jerec. Jerec rejoiced in the agent's stupidity, leaped to his feet, and thumbed the power switch. Energy crackled as he moved forward, and Kyle came to meet him. The Rebel spun on the ball of his right foot, executed what Tal called the "falling leaf" and "slashed from the sky."

Jerec stutter-stepped, brought his weapon up and across, and waited for the inevitable result. Something warm touched his side, sliced inward, and stopped just short of his spine. It took Jerec a moment to understand what it was, to realize that his life had come to an end, and to start his long, dark journey.



But how close does someone have to be to rival them? 90%? 80%? 70%?

NowYouRemember
And clearly she could not do it on his own.

We don't know that. Plus unless I'm incorrect, she was able to kill C'baoth when Luke couldn't, as well.


Doesn't matter.

Ah. Now you're thinkin' with the crack-adled mind, kid. wink


long quote...


The center was hollow. Dirt fell away from the edge and avalanched into the depression below. Jan arrived at Kyle's side, looked into the mound, and was amazed by what she saw - Jerec, quivering with the power that coursed through his body, light spilling from empty eye sockets. His voice came from everywhere at once.

"Yes! Join me! Share the power!"

Kyle moved forward; Jan grabbed for his arm and missed. The Jedi jumped, fell through the air, and absorbed the impact with his legs. His lightsaber sizzled as he turned it on.

"Yessss," the chorus chanted, "free us that we might merge with the Force!"

Jerec chose to ignore the lightsaber and the spirit voices. He spoke without turning.

"Your efforts are misguided. Can you hear them? Whining and sniveling? Is that what you seek to become? Another voice in a chorus of weakness?"

Jerec turned, extended his hand, and triggered an explosion. Kyle was propelled up and out of the chamber and onto the Valley floor. The impact knocked the air from his lungs.

He was lying there, trying to breathe, when an icy wind swept through the Valley. It circled slowly at first, as if gathering energy, before steadily picking up speed. Dust and other bits of debris were vacuumed up and whirled about. Voices wailed as mist billowed and the temperature continued to drop.

Kyle made it to one knee as Jerec levitated up and out of the mound. Voices moaned as large chunks of the inner mound and paving stones followed him up. Kyle stood, heart pounding, staring upward. What could he do? Jerec had claimed the Valley's power, had already harnessed it, and would soon rule what remained of the Empire. And then what?

A new Empire, worse than the first, and a whole lot bigger.

Despair threatened to pull him down. To come so far only to have failed those who counted on him was worse than death itself. The Rebel watched Jerec rise and marveled at the power the Dark Jedi had unleashed. Power waiting to be used, power that could defeat Jerec, that could pull him down...

Kyle brought himself up short. What had Jerec said? That's the second time you called on the dark side. What was the magic number, anyway? The repetitions beyond which one was changed? Was it three? Four? Five?

Suddenly, Kyle knew that the number didn't matter - that the light side offered more than enough power for any task he would be called upon to do, and that knowledge was the key.

The Jedi closed his eyes, resisted the temptation to look at the light that strobed against his eyelids, and sent a series of commands. He gathered the Force around him, shaped it into a protective cocoon, and sealed Jerec within.

Jerec felt a sense of warmth and peace as the cocoon of light formed around him. It was a wonderful sensation - and one he enjoyed, until something went wrong. The Jedi fell, struggled to stay aloft, and fell again. Something, or someone, had cut his access to the dark side of the Force...

Who? How? The Dark Jedi fought to break through and knew it was too late. The dark, nearly black column of energy that pushed up out of the mound had been severed, and he, along with the rocks that had risen with him, plummeted to the ground.

Kyle opened his eyes, saw the Dark Jedi fall, and knew he had taken the correct approach. By doing something positive, by protecting Jerec from evil, the battle had been won. The ground under Kyle's boots crunched as he approached the fallen Jerec. Though stunned and badly bruised, Jerec was otherwise uninjured. In spite of his blindness, the Dark Jedi knew that Kyle stood over him with lightsaber in hand. His own weapon lay ten meters away - but may as well have been on the far side of the planet. Having never shown mercy to others, Jerec sought none for himself.

"Strike me down and the power of the dark side will be yours! It was I who took your father's head... or have you forgotten?"

Kyle looked down at the man before him and felt a strange sense of pity. Here he was, physically powerless, but still hoping to bring Kyle over or, failing that, to secure a quick and painless death. The Rebel shook his head.

"No, I haven't forgotten, and I never will."

He extended his hand, felt the Dark Jedi's lightsaber strike the surface of his palm, and then threw the weapon to Jerec. Jerec rejoiced in the agent's stupidity, leaped to his feet, and thumbed the power switch. Energy crackled as he moved forward, and Kyle came to meet him. The Rebel spun on the ball of his right foot, executed what Tal called the "falling leaf" and "slashed from the sky."

Jerec stutter-stepped, brought his weapon up and across, and waited for the inevitable result. Something warm touched his side, sliced inward, and stopped just short of his spine. It took Jerec a moment to understand what it was, to realize that his life had come to an end, and to start his long, dark journey.

So he did beat him. Surived an assualt from a man who had in that time been more powerful than Vader, and then used the Force to defeat him.
Imagine what he could do to Vader. smokin'

But how close does someone have to be to rival them? 90%? 80%? 70%?

Could be any of those, truth be told. But, 'fact is, Jerec at his average state still did rival him, and Kyle fought a Jerec not only empowered - but also not holding back.
With Luke, the opposite.

ares834
Jesus Christ...



Eevrything suggests that... Considering her powers paled in comparison to Luke. Hell she hardly knew how to handle the saber. As for C'baoth... It's no like he was distracted fighting off a pack of vornskrs or anything... Honestly with this logic Vader>Palpatine...


roll eyes (sarcastic)



It was a one time instance and he had an unusally strong connection to the force at the time... There is no reason to beleive that he could use it at anytime. Afterall he didn't use it against Jacen.
Regardless cocoons of force energy can be broken through.


Sure but as I said rivaled is unquantifiable.


Not a whole lot to support this honeslty. Luke beleives Vader did not go all out against him, but Vader admits in SotE that Luke was a highly challenging opponent. And this Luke is superior to his RotJ incarnation.

NowYouRemember
Jesus Christ...

He is wonderful.


Eevrything suggests that... Considering her powers paled in comparison to Luke. Hell she hardly knew how to handle the saber. As for C'baoth... It's no like he was distracted fighting off a pack of vornskrs or anything... Honestly with this logic Vader>Palpatine...

Mm, the book stated she had held a saber less times in her life than she could count on both hands - and yet still she took out Luke's clone, and C'baoth.
And nah, he wasn't very distracted - they leapt at him and got fried.
But then she stepped up to the plate and took his butt out.
Luke couldn't manage that.
smokin'

It was a one time instance and he had an unusally strong connection to the force at the time... There is no reason to beleive that he could use it at anytime. Afterall he didn't use it against Jacen.
Regardless cocoons of force energy can be broken through.

He still survived an assault from someone more powerful than Vader, meaning there is evidence to suggest he could kill Vader as well.

Sure but as I said rivaled is unquantifiable.

Mm, it's a simple word. Like I said, you either rival someone, or you don't. Savvy.


Not a whole lot to support this honeslty. Luke beleives Vader did not go all out against him, but Vader admits in SotE that Luke was a highly challenging opponent. And this Luke is superior to his RotJ incarnation.

Hmm? A less experienced Luke superior to a more experienced Luke? Illogical.
We know that Vader held back because he loved his son.

Jerec, who was more powerful than Vader, didn't hold back on Kyle.

ares834
My god... This is my last post on this topic as you don't seem to understand the circumstances invloved in thses fights... Hell the beasts were still coming at Joruus when Mara Jade struck him down.



Faulty logic. Once agin extenuating circumstances were involved in this fight...
Honestly if we go with this Lumiya would be more powerful than Palpatine since she survived a fight with LotF Luke...


Are you dense or something? TTT takes place after RotJ...


Prove it.


Prove it.

NowYouRemember
Originally posted by ares834
My god... This is my last post on this topic as you don't seem to understand the circumstances invloved in thses fights... Hell the beasts were still coming at Joruus when Mara Jade struck him down.

And she could have blocked that lightning on her blade same way Kenobi did with Dooku, and she still could have killed him.
She's a bad b*tch like that. wink


Faulty logic. Once agin extenuating circumstances were involved in this fight...
Honestly if we go with this Lumiya would be more powerful than Palpatine since she survived a fight with LotF Luke...


And we know Kyle grew more and more adept with a lightsaber and beat him with a combination of skill and the Force, and this was a greater threat than Vader.

Are you dense or something? TTT takes place after RotJ...


Mm, you worded your earlier sentence wrong. And this version of Luke would still lose to a Vader that didn't hold back.


Prove it.

Watch Return of the Jedi, and pay attention. Don't smoke any Crack during it.


Prove it.

Jerec had the power of the Valley in him, making him more powerful than Vader at the time.

And Jerec didn't meet him in that place to have a tea party.

Savvy? stick out tongue

NowYouRemember
Alright, kid. Been a pleasure masta-debatin' with you.

I'm going to retire now, and stick some lightsaber-crystals into my hobbit-pipe..smokin'

You seem like a nice lad, with a good head on your shoulders.

Keep those flags wavin'..the flags of discontent. wink

Time to puff myself to sleep..

Adios.

plo koon 3745
Luke is wwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyy better than fisto, kolar and tinn ,add mara and kyle .luke mara and kyle screw team 2 up.

plo koon 3745
im the debateing type of person , mara couldent of blocked lightning on her blade if she had just thrown her lightsaber away like luke did. Also, mara lost to jacen solo in the book wich if luke fought him he would have won. VADER DID NOT LET LUKE WIN HE BEAT VADER WITH HIS SKILL.Give me a couple reasons how vader let him win, i watched ROTJ a thousand times i saw no indication of vader letting luke win!!!!!!!!!!!

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by plo koon 3745
im the debateing type of person , mara couldent of blocked lightning on her blade if she had just thrown her lightsaber away like luke did. Also, mara lost to jacen solo in the book wich if luke fought him he would have won. VADER DID NOT LET LUKE WIN HE BEAT VADER WITH HIS SKILL.Give me a couple reasons how vader let him win, i watched ROTJ a thousand times i saw no indication of vader letting luke win!!!!!!!!!!!

L. M. A. O

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