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This is Luke Skywalker, from the very first NJO book, Vector Prime, against Darth Sidious as he appeared in Revenge of the Sith.

They face each other in the Genosian arena.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All out

And the winner?


EDIT: Sorry 'bout the title, fellas. I've been facing down Darth Crack again.

Luke.

Originally posted by ares834
Luke.

Are you sure? How?

I think Luke, by the beginning of NJO has become the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

I would almost give him that title by the end of Dark Empire actually. But not quite.

He also shows some ridiculous power in Shadows of Mindor.

but by NJO, he is established.

Hmm.

Luke

Originally posted by truejedi
I think Luke, by the beginning of NJO has become the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

lawl



The accuracy of this would depend on what you mean by "undisputed heavyweight champion of the world." He defeated the reborn Emperor in a duel, but couldn't come close to beating the Emperor's Force Storm on his own.



Oh?



Oh?

This post reserved as the first to disagree with a certain someone's evaluation of DE Luke.

I'll have a post for you tomorrow evening around sixish (Central).

Originally posted by RagingBoner




The accuracy of this would depend on what you mean by "undisputed heavyweight champion of the world." He defeated the reborn Emperor in a duel, but couldn't come close to beating the Emperor's Force Storm on his own.



dueling would obviously be the nature of a versus thread... He took out the champ, (DE sidious) that makes him, the champ. mebbe. depending on how much Leia helped him. (which, since he couldn't even tell he was being helped, couldn't have been that much)

Originally posted by truejedi
dueling would obviously be the nature of a versus thread... He took out the champ, (DE sidious) that makes him, the champ. mebbe. depending on how much Leia helped him. (which, since he couldn't even tell he was being helped, couldn't have been that much)

I don't know about that. One of the Essential guides says that both hers and Anakins (Solo, obviously) power was added to his. I think this is a pretty close fight, but I'd imagine that Luke takes it after a difficult battle. Sidious is better overall with the Force, but Luke is more combat oriented.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't know about that. One of the Essential guides says that both hers and Anakins (Solo, obviously) power was added to his. I think this is a pretty close fight, but I'd imagine that Luke takes it after a difficult battle. Sidious is better overall with the Force, but Luke is more combat oriented.

Good estimation.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious is better overall with the Force, but Luke is more combat oriented.

exactly. which is what would be decided in a versus thread...

Originally posted by truejedi
(which, since he couldn't even tell he was being helped, couldn't have been that much)

Possibly. Or it could reflect then-Luke's lack of subtlety in terms of Force use.

Or that he was slightly occupied with fighting possibly the most powerful being to date at the time, hence not paying that close attention.

Despite a severe aversion to comic books, I've recently come into possession of a rather nifty collection of stills from DE (courtesy of the esteemed Borborad) and would like to formally announce that I have a force field against quote mining.

A certain someone's bias is showing, and I would like to take issue with this line, quoted from his first post in this thread:

(Emphasis mine)
Although there will naturally be some leeway in visual media, especially when dealing with supernatural/cosmic issues that are supposed to be murky, it seems clear to me that Luke is not only the primary agent in Palpatine's failure to properly use the Force Storm technique, but in fact critically important to the endeavor.

The image:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3589/darkempire194.th.jpg
Note first that Luke did not sense Leia's contribution of Force energy. One explanation, supplied by tj above, is that her efforts up to this point were negligible. That theory certainly makes sense, given that Leia has not trained with any sort of Battle Meditation technique and any support offered would be clumsy and instinctive, hardly the sort of game-changing special circumstance that merits an asterisk by Luke's defeat of Palpatine.

The charge that Luke's oversight was merely the result of his own deficiencies, especially in metaphysical precision, is not supported by the narrative up to this point. At the beginning of the series, he is already described as the "essence of the Jedi" and is deft enough to engage in metaphysical combat from across the Galaxy.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4517/darkempire27.th.jpg

Later on, Luke is shown to already have a masterful control of illusory techniques. He sends a mirage to guide Han and Leia away from Byss, fooling both the minds of his friends and the physical sensors of R2-D2. This indicates that he constantly projected a physical presence, as well as fooling Leia's Force senses/twin bond. Every time Ghost!Luke interacted with anything, from Leia's skin to a simple piece of paper or even the air itself, Luke had to use TK from miles and miles away. This suggests a rather refined control of the Force, rather than the clumsy connection required to overlook a massive influx of energy during a critical duel.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/458/darkempire155.th.jpg


Now that we have established that Luke is not a bumbling nincompoop, it is clear that Leia's assistance, if any, during the lightsaber duel was not noteworthy. Let's look at your claim again, with this new perspective:

I submit that this is directly contradicted by onscreen third-party narration. I do not enjoy arguing about omniscience, so I will even weaken the quote so far as to admit that it is third party limited narration, indicating no absolute knowledge outside of what the characters themselves know and experience. Look again at the lower left textbox:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3589/darkempire194.th.jpg


This indicates that Leia's contribution was no more than a catalyst for Luke's release of power. To quote Nai, "So going by the comic book, Luke apparently did most of the work on his own with some minor aid by Leia and her unborn child Anakin Solo." I would go even further; it seems to me that Luke was the one providing power, and the most that can be attributed to Leia is the permission to remove the gloves and really go all out.

I was with you up to here. Are you saying that Leia's power wasn't even a factor? Because thats clearly not the case.

Hell the word 'intensity' suggests that its not exactly negligable.

See? Clearly Leia rolled a natural 5 on that D5 roll. An 'immense bonus' to be sure.

Originally posted by Nephthys
See? Clearly Leia rolled a natural 5 on that D5 roll. An 'immense bonus' to be sure.




Good points..

So Luke by the beggining of NJO is roughly slightly more powerful than RotS Sidious?

Also with the lightsaber, I'd imagine.

Yes, one hell of a tough fight for Luke, but he'd win.

Good points.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was with you up to here. Are you saying that Leia's power wasn't even a factor? Because thats clearly not the case.

Hell the word 'intensity' suggests that its not exactly negligable.

Leia's intervention was not only a factor, it was quite clearly the decisive one.



It's Leia's intensity that "unlocks" these unexpected reserves of power within Luke, not Luke himself.

Jump forward to the last third party box on the page:



If this was just Luke and just Luke's power at play, Leia wouldn't be described as pressing the Force around Palpatine.

That second panel Red posted had be cracking up: "B-Bleep?"

What I was alluding to is that it is possible that Luke lacked the requisite skill with the Force to sense such power enhancement. Obi-Wan Kenobi makes reference to the role skill plays in a Jedi's subtle senses in Attack of the Clones, where he claims it is possible for his senses to be more heightened than Anakin's own, despite the enormous advantage Anakin possesses in terms of raw power and Force sensitivity.

I'm not arguing that this is the case, only suggesting that it might be possible.



That's cool. Did you know that Darth Revan was also described as "the heart of the Force"?



You mean, where he and Palpatine briefly touch minds?



The doppelganger technique doesn't mention active use of telekinesis in the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

Wow. Sourcebooks are lame.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's cool. Did you know that Darth Revan was also described as "the heart of the Force"?


Yes, and he is also the most powerful entity in the mythos.

You're really not helping your argument with this.

I love it that Gideon's back. It's like a creepy uncle returning from 5, long, rape-filled years in prison. My families finally back together.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yes, and he is also the most powerful entity in the mythos.

You're really not helping your argument with this.

Who's Gideon?

And I'm not arguing Revan's supremacy, just pointing it out to Zamp.

Revan was the motherf***** heart of the motherf***** force. don't argue it, and what it MEANS is that Revan was untouchable in both the force and with a lightsaber. Clearly.

The only one that could successfully challenge Revan would be Kas'im the Magnificent.

Gideon's not back... Or is he?


And Kas'im? Why would you point him out? Funny, considering there are others who can successfully challenge Revan and just the strange choice of character.

blasphemy from Valerian.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Gideon's not back... Or is he?


And Kas'im? Why would you point him out? Funny, considering there are others who can successfully challenge Revan and just the strange choice of character. You're a Lost Member, so your ignorance will be tolerated... for now. But never blaspheme against KTM lest you suffer a fate worse than that guy Lord Bandon killed.

That guy Lord Bandon killed... Yeah, poor guy.

But what do you mean? Has Revan become more powerful in my absence or something??? Or has Kas'im? WTF is going on?


Oh, GOD.

Only now, in the end, are you beginning to understand, Major.

And yet you still do not see the entire picture.

Revan has not become the most powerful of powerful in your absence.

He always has been the most powerful of powerful.

Everything you thought you knew has been a lie.

I think I'm gonna cry.

what? Revan and Kas'im the Magnificent have always been the shining standard. It's why we don't use them in VS. fights, any fight they are in becomes a spite thread. And we don't put them against each other, because that is like dividing by 0.

Oh, man. This Lost Member thing is killing me. I need to shape up. Only I'm lazy.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Oh, man. This Lost Member thing is killing me. I need to shape up. Only I'm lazy. You, Crimzon, and Faunus is on the way to becoming one. Much has changed in your absence. We're wiser now, not slaves to simple thinking. We realized not too long ago how mistaken we were about "Who the Strongest Sith Lord Is". It wasn't the Ancient Sith as the Antediluvians said, nor was it Palpatine, as Gideon argued.

The answer was found in the middle, a delicious compromise. Kas'im the Magnificent (may he live forever) is indisputable in his position as the most recent greatest Dark Lord, far exceeding that of Sidious. His skill with a blade elevated him above all else. Only a Force Push from his apprentice that leveled a stone temple could undo him, and even then, Bane the Ultimate won via technicality (crushed by a building, doubtless composed of a quadanium/cortosis hybrid-alloy, that was also poisonous).

Preceding him of course is Revan, Heart of the Force and all that. A perfect being if ever there was one, never defeated, not even when stabbed in the back. Could make anyone obey him without question using Force Convince etc. It's been theorized that Revan spoke to Kas'im from across time, advising him to allow Bane to defeat him, as Bane was now the sole carrier of all Revan's wisdom. Bane's victory was in truth a joint effort by Revan and KTM to further the Sith cause.


But standing above the rest is the great one, the paragon of perfection itself: Bandon. He doesn't truly belong in the ranks of the greatest Sith, as he transcends all such trivial ideologies. He exists on a plane beyond our own. His Hyper Force Push will reduce any meandering Sith officer and his console to atoms. His mustache and goatee can only be described as "wicked awesome!" It's known that he only allowed Revan to "defeat" him out of respect for Revan's hair (itself described as flowing, elegant, and dandruff-free).




Now do you understand?

i admit its a tad confusing, but LL did a good job explaining it.

Kas'im the Magificent - Bane the Ultimate- Revan the Motherf****** Heart of the Motherf****** Force.

and then Bandon...

UnFORGIVABLE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WO2wvPd6GE&feature=related

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You, Crimzon, and Faunus is on the way to becoming one. Much has changed in your absence. We're wiser now, not slaves to simple thinking. We realized not too long ago how mistaken we were about "Who the Strongest Sith Lord Is". It wasn't the Ancient Sith as the Antediluvians said, nor was it Palpatine, as Gideon argued.

The answer was found in the middle, a delicious compromise. Kas'im the Magnificent (may he live forever) is indisputable in his position as the most recent greatest Dark Lord, far exceeding that of Sidious. His skill with a blade elevated him above all else. Only a Force Push from his apprentice that leveled a stone temple could undo him, and even then, Bane the Ultimate won via technicality (crushed by a building, doubtless composed of a quadanium/cortosis hybrid-alloy, that was also poisonous).

Preceding him of course is Revan, Heart of the Force and all that. A perfect being if ever there was one, never defeated, not even when stabbed in the back. Could make anyone obey him without question using Force Convince etc. It's been theorized that Revan spoke to Kas'im from across time, advising him to allow Bane to defeat him, as Bane was now the sole carrier of all Revan's wisdom. Bane's victory was in truth a joint effort by Revan and KTM to further the Sith cause.


But standing above the rest is the great one, the paragon of perfection itself: Bandon. He doesn't truly belong in the ranks of the greatest Sith, as he transcends all such trivial ideologies. He exists on a plane beyond our own. His Hyper Force Push will reduce any meandering Sith officer and his console to atoms. His mustache and goatee can only be described as "wicked awesome!" It's known that he only allowed Revan to "defeat" him out of respect for Revan's hair (itself described as flowing, elegant, and dandruff-free).




Now do you understand?

Profiled.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You, Crimzon, and Faunus is on the way to becoming one. Much has changed in your absence. We're wiser now, not slaves to simple thinking. We realized not too long ago how mistaken we were about "Who the Strongest Sith Lord Is". It wasn't the Ancient Sith as the Antediluvians said, nor was it Palpatine, as Gideon argued.

The answer was found in the middle, a delicious compromise. Kas'im the Magnificent (may he live forever) is indisputable in his position as the most recent greatest Dark Lord, far exceeding that of Sidious. His skill with a blade elevated him above all else. Only a Force Push from his apprentice that leveled a stone temple could undo him, and even then, Bane the Ultimate won via technicality (crushed by a building, doubtless composed of a quadanium/cortosis hybrid-alloy, that was also poisonous).

Preceding him of course is Revan, Heart of the Force and all that. A perfect being if ever there was one, never defeated, not even when stabbed in the back. Could make anyone obey him without question using Force Convince etc. It's been theorized that Revan spoke to Kas'im from across time, advising him to allow Bane to defeat him, as Bane was now the sole carrier of all Revan's wisdom. Bane's victory was in truth a joint effort by Revan and KTM to further the Sith cause.


But standing above the rest is the great one, the paragon of perfection itself: Bandon. He doesn't truly belong in the ranks of the greatest Sith, as he transcends all such trivial ideologies. He exists on a plane beyond our own. His Hyper Force Push will reduce any meandering Sith officer and his console to atoms. His mustache and goatee can only be described as "wicked awesome!" It's known that he only allowed Revan to "defeat" him out of respect for Revan's hair (itself described as flowing, elegant, and dandruff-free).




Now do you understand?


Not a doubt in my mind. It has become more clear than anything.

THANK YOU LUCIEN.

awesrg

I am familiar with the concept of sarcasm. Are you?

it started out as sarcasm, and eventually became an unshakeable dogma. A dogma that has left more than one of our returning members confused, slightly angry, and sexuallyfrustrated.

It started as sarcasm? What the hell, I was being serious the entire time...

Just throwing this out there. Is it just me or is there an inverse relationship between those who perceive themselves more intelligent than everyone else here, and financial success? I'm not sure what Nai's or the Januses do for a living but it just seems that their so called intelligence hasn't really translated to real world success. Again, I could be wrong and I totally shouldn't have taken that theraflu this morning.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You, Crimzon, and Faunus is on the way to becoming one. Much has changed in your absence. We're wiser now, not slaves to simple thinking. We realized not too long ago how mistaken we were about "Who the Strongest Sith Lord Is". It wasn't the Ancient Sith as the Antediluvians said, nor was it Palpatine, as Gideon argued.

The answer was found in the middle, a delicious compromise. Kas'im the Magnificent (may he live forever) is indisputable in his position as the most recent greatest Dark Lord, far exceeding that of Sidious. His skill with a blade elevated him above all else. Only a Force Push from his apprentice that leveled a stone temple could undo him, and even then, Bane the Ultimate won via technicality (crushed by a building, doubtless composed of a quadanium/cortosis hybrid-alloy, that was also poisonous).

Preceding him of course is Revan, Heart of the Force and all that. A perfect being if ever there was one, never defeated, not even when stabbed in the back. Could make anyone obey him without question using Force Convince etc. It's been theorized that Revan spoke to Kas'im from across time, advising him to allow Bane to defeat him, as Bane was now the sole carrier of all Revan's wisdom. Bane's victory was in truth a joint effort by Revan and KTM to further the Sith cause.


But standing above the rest is the great one, the paragon of perfection itself: Bandon. He doesn't truly belong in the ranks of the greatest Sith, as he transcends all such trivial ideologies. He exists on a plane beyond our own. His Hyper Force Push will reduce any meandering Sith officer and his console to atoms. His mustache and goatee can only be described as "wicked awesome!" It's known that he only allowed Revan to "defeat" him out of respect for Revan's hair (itself described as flowing, elegant, and dandruff-free).




Now do you understand?

Haven't laughed this hard since Gideon told us he was straight.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Haven't laughed this hard since Gideon told us he was straight.

I can't claim to know Gideon that well, but I'm entranced by the downright animal magnetism of his posts. It wouldn't surprise me if legions of obsessive people made him the very center of their universes.

From what I hear, he's very straight. And bangs hot chicks quite often.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Just throwing this out there. Is it just me or is there an inverse relationship between those who perceive themselves more intelligent than everyone else here, and financial success?

An interesting question. Let see if we can find an answer.

In order to state that certain people just "perceive" themselves as more intelligent than others, you have to assume that their perception is somehow off. With that assumption, you have moved into a position, in which you perceive yourself as more intelligent than the people who you think of perceiving themselves as more intelligent than you.

After having become a member of the group of "those who perceive themselves more intelligent than everyone else here", you might just check your bank account to find the answer to your question. I hope you will share the result with us, because we'd all like to know how much money one can make in the trolling business today.



I wonder where you concluded that from. Because I don't hawk information about my personal life around on an online forum?

I mean, okay, I could also make up stories about my life off the internet, like you other people, and think that somebody will actually buy that stuff, while I keep acting diametrically opposed to the phantasmagoria I try to sell. But I wonder what that would be good for? I can imagine that people with a frail ego and no actual success in life would do something like that, to get attention and acknowledgement, that the real world denies them. I would pity those who have sunken so deep.

But, just to clarify this, that wasn't a reference to you. We all know that you're a successful student of business administration, law, a financial wizard, a good-looking ladykiller, a fantastic sportsman and, of course, a great debater. The latter point has always been one of the few things accepted as a general consensus among the members of this very forum. We've always admired your rhetorical refinement and your skill in producing coherent arguments. Qualities, that will, without a doubt, blaze your trail to many won battles in the courtroom.

So we should deem ourselfs lucky that you - rather than working from 9 to 5 or making millions at the Wall Street or spending your time at Yale, Harvard or Stanford law school - grace us with your marvellous presence.

"We're not worthy! We're not worthy! We're Scum! We suck!"

Originally posted by Borbarad
An interesting question. Let see if we can find an answer.

In order to state that certain people just "perceive" themselves as more intelligent than others, you have to assume that their perception is somehow off. With that assumption, you have moved into a position, in which you perceive yourself as more intelligent than the people who you think of perceiving themselves as more intelligent than you.
Why would I have to subscribe to that position if I assumed that? I could just as well perceive myself on equal footing as the "intelligent" ones, or maybe less intelligent in some aspects but more efficient/intelligent in the ones that count. The fact that you only perceive one outcome if I subscribe to my assumption, tells me you haven't thought it through.


Well, what WE know is that it's probably better than the trolling and self pwned sarcasm business, correct?




Well, from what I remember, I think Janus is some kind of CS rep. I don't know about you but you definitely spend enough time on these forums to question your financial success, unless you work for yourself. And when I say the "Nais and Janus", it doesn't necessarily mean you, just the group you run with.


That's one hilarious rationalization. Way to trigger your self defense mechanism. Did I hit a nerve?


Yup.. Definitely defensive. Thanks for the essay chief, I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets a kick out of your whining.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Why would I have to subscribe to that position if I assumed that? I could just as well perceive myself on equal footing as the "intelligent" ones, or maybe less intelligent in some aspects but more efficient/intelligent in the ones that count. The fact that you only perceive one outcome if I subscribe to my assumption, tells me you haven't thought it through.

The fact that you came trolling out of nowhere, with no reason to do so at all, already demonstrates your mindset, Beef.



Yes. Your reputation in here is definitely well earned.



I wonder what this says about you, provided you probably spent more time here than myself. I just come by once in a while, when I have some spare-time left, while you wrote one third of the social thread on your own. What does that tell us about your financial success?



Did I hit a nerve, or why are you trying the "rationalization" thing again? It's boring. It's even lamer than the previous "insecurities" show. *yawn*



Correct. I'm rather sure that many will find it hilarious to see you turned into the laughing stock of the forum again. It simply never gets old.

Ah, bitching at each other like gossiping schoolgirls. Yes this brings back memories.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The fact that you came trolling out of nowhere, with no reason to do so at all, already demonstrates your mindset, Beef.
You mean like, randomly responding to people with insults for the past few years?




As is yours *Queue the denial*



I wonder what this says about you, provided you probably spent more time here than myself. I just come by once in a while, when I have some spare-time left, while you wrote one third of the social thread on your own. What does that tell us about your financial success?
Well, lets take a look at our join dates, posts, and do the math? Thanks for actually proving my point



Did I hit a nerve, or why are you trying the "rationalization" thing again? It's boring. It's even lamer than the previous "insecurities" show. *yawn*
So I call you defensive and you respond with... The same thing? Wow, I didn't know you went back to your calling card of being a parrot.




I believe you've been the laughing stock far longer than I ever could be. But how can I compete with an irrational defense mechanism?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You mean like, randomly responding to people with insults for the past few years?

You consider calling a troll "troll" an insult? I'd always thought that falls under the "stating the truth" paradigm.



Aww. *blushs* All the people who called me one of the best debators and most knowledgeable persons ever to appear here, and have praised my mastery of a secondary language, did so rightly? That's so cute, Sexy. I'm almost feeling sorry for the fact, that you're generally perceived as a troll who has never contributed anything to a debate here.



Urm. Is that lack of reading comprehension of yours taking its toll again?

You: 11116 posts.

Me: 2798 posts.

So having produced almost four times as many posts as myself, despite having joined 14 months after me, is a testament to you spending less time here than myself? That's a very ...creative... interpretation of the given facts, don't you think so?



Sorry. I'm not as good at the art of trolling as you are, David. Perhabs I should visit you to receive some lessons from the master himself.



And, as many, many other things you believe, this one is also wrong. Phew. That was hard work. Gotta go now. Cya, pal.

PWNED!

5 minutes before....


Way too easy

Oh and touche on the post counts.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ah, bitching at each other like gossiping schoolgirls. Yes this brings back memories.

Yeah, I miss this. Wish it would happen more often.

That's not a problem. Just produce facts for nai or even bs and watch the fireworks begin. Someone needs to bring back the drama.

before the training he recieved of course.

Originally posted by truejedi
before the training he recieved of course.

The sources say otherwise. Even after Palpatine tutored him in the dark side, he still couldn't defeat the Emperor without Leia and Anakin's intervention. Perhaps in a lightsaber match, of course.

which is really all that matters when it comes to figuring out who is going to kill who.

Originally posted by truejedi
which is really all that matters when it comes to figuring out who is going to kill who.

Are you sure? So once an individual is disarmed, the contest is automatically over?

the majority of the fights we see, someone getting disarmed IS the end of the fight.

I'm thinking Anakin and Kenobi, AOTC, QGJ in TPM, Darth Maul, in TPM, Anakin, Mace, Fisto, Saesee Tinn, Agen Kolar, Cin Drillig, Dooku, ROTS, I'm thinking Luke in ESB, I'm thinking Caedus, Mara, Lumiya, Lobi in LOTF,

and really , this list goes on and on and on and on.

Sidious would have to have the ridiculous luck of getting disarmed for a THIRD time in his life without being injured to survive a disarming from Luke.