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So here we go......Blade spends 5 years training with John Preston. Preston teaches Blade everything there is to know about Gun Kata.

Selene, it turns out that she can slow time down with the heart/adrenaline thing, so she spends five years with the Fraternity. Fox and the others teach her everything there is to know about bullet curving.


The five years are up. Blade has all his vampire hunting skills, in addition to Gun Kata skills that rival Prestons. Selene retains her death dealer skills, in addition to bullet curving skills on par with Fox and Wesley.

The two face off in a gunfight to the death. The fight takes place at night in Nakatomi plaza. The plaza is deserted, fully powered and fully lit. Blade starts out on the ground floor, Selene on the roof. They must find each other and kill.

Blade is armed with two Glock 9mm loaded with UV rounds. Selene is armed with two Beretta 9mm loaded with silver nitrate ammo. They both have infinite ammo.



Who wins?

Selene became immune to Sunlight in the end didn't she so the UV rounds won't do much.

Blade doesn't even have his sword???

Selene has high speed manuevre feats and now bullet bending.

Gun kata can't fight what it can't see.

Selene 9/10

Bullet bending destroys the very concept of Gun Kata. Selene in a stomp.

Selene with not many problems

Originally posted by the ninjak
Selene became immune to Sunlight in the end didn't she so the UV rounds won't do much.

Blade doesn't even have his sword???

Selene has high speed manuevre feats and now bullet bending.

Gun kata can't fight what it can't see.

Selene 9/10 This is Selene before she drank the blood of Corvinus. Apologies.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bullet bending destroys the very concept of Gun Kata. Selene in a stomp.

you gave Selene the adrenaline boost on top of her vampire stats... murderstomp.

More to it than that.

Selene shots the gun from point A. The bullet curves. The bullet arrives at point B, where Blade is. Nothing really changes, it's just that the bullet happens to curve between point A and B instead of flying in a straight line.

Bullet curving is better at range while Gun Kata is more often up close. If Blade gets up close, odds are in his favor. Just the opposite if they are 20ish feet apart.

Originally posted by marwash22
you gave Selene the adrenaline boost on top of her vampire stats... murderstomp.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
More to it than that.

Selene shots the gun from point A. The bullet curves. The bullet arrives at point B, where Blade is. Nothing really changes, it's just that the bullet happens to curve between point A and B instead of flying in a straight line.

Bullet curving is better at range while Gun Kata is more often up close. If Blade gets up close, odds are in his favor. Just the opposite if they are 20ish feet apart.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
More to it than that.

Selene shots the gun from point A. The bullet curves. The bullet arrives at point B, where Blade is. Nothing really changes, it's just that the bullet happens to curve between point A and B instead of flying in a straight line.

Bullet curving is better at range while Gun Kata is more often up close. If Blade gets up close, odds are in his favor. Just the opposite if they are 20ish feet apart.

I believe this has been debated to death...In Equilibrium it's quite clearly stated that Gun Kata is to do with trajectory...Not destination
A trajectory is THE PATH A MOVING OBJECT FOLLOWS through space as a function of time.

Given that bullet bending can go from anything from a straight shot to a full 360 degree curve then it becomes impossible to predict.

Regardless...This obviously isn't Blade's only skill and he's vastly stronger and faster than Preston is. Unfortunately Selene would still kick his ass.

Originally posted by jaden101
I believe this has been debated to death...In Equilibrium it's quite clearly stated that Gun Kata is to do with trajectory...Not destination
A trajectory is THE PATH A MOVING OBJECT FOLLOWS through space as a function of time.

Given that bullet bending can go from anything from a straight shot to a full 360 degree curve then it becomes impossible to predict.

Regardless...This obviously isn't Blade's only skill and he's vastly stronger and faster than Preston is. Unfortunately Selene would still kick his ass.

And this point was also murdered in the course of those discussions.


Quite clearly, the debate is over: further perpetuations of "bullet bending ruins gun kata" is misplaced for those that participating in those discussions, which includes you, Robtard, RJ, myself, Placidity, and a couple of others.


There is no debate. It was settled.

I don't get it! Are you agreeing with us or not!

Bullet bending completely goes aganst Gun Kata because whereas you may aim for teh head and the Gun Kata guy will respond to that the bullet will end up coring through his crotch and he'll look like a fool! Like a FOOL!

Or she could just shoot him around a corner.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And this point was also murdered in the course of those discussions.


Quite clearly, the debate is over: further perpetuations of "bullet bending ruins gun kata" is misplaced for those that participating in those discussions, which includes you, Robtard, RJ, myself, Placidity, and a couple of others.


There is no debate. It was settled.

More than just a river in Egypt then yeah?

Just because you stop shouting at the brick wall doesn't mean the brick wall won the argument.

Oh man.

Originally posted by jaden101
More than just a river in Egypt then yeah?

Exactly, so stop swimming in it.

Originally posted by jaden101
Just because you stop shouting at the brick wall doesn't mean the brick wall won the argument.

You don't have to be THAT hard on yourself, man.

I stand by this, especially the last part:

Selene shoots the gun from point A. The bullet curves. The bullet arrives at point B, where Blade is. Nothing really changes, it's just that the bullet happens to curve between point A and B instead of flying in a straight line.

Bullet curving is better at range while Gun Kata is more often up close. If Blade gets up close, odds are in his favor. Just the opposite if they are 20ish feet apart.

I'm not impressed by the counter argument. Gun kata is the act of saying "oh look, he's aiming his gun in X direction, that means the bullet will hit me in my right shoulder. -dodge accordingly- Curving the bullet means that despite aiming the barrel at his shoulder, it'll curve and hit his chest.

Yes, I would agree that at point blank range bullet curving would be pointless due to the short travel time, but they're using guns, which are ranged weapons.

WTF difference does it make if the bullet curves on the way to it's target? If Selene is standing at point A and fires on Blade, who is at point B, the bullet still starts and ends exactly where it would if she had fired it in a straight line (traditional trajectory.)

If anything, bullet curving gives Blade even more time to use Gun kata. If the bullet is curved, it takes that much longer to arrive at it's target. the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, not an arced one.


Selene has two pistols. Preston used Gun kata to avoid being hit by twentyish automatic rifle wielding cops. If Blade is as good as Preston (and the OP suggests that he is), then using Gun kata to avoid being hit by one person wielding two pistols is a cakewalk.


But then again, Selene is way faster than those guys were. Bullet curving will not win this, if anything her speed will. She'd be better off firing in a straight line and using her speed.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I'm not impressed by the counter argument. Gun kata is the act of saying "oh look, he's aiming his gun in X direction, that means the bullet will hit me in my right shoulder. -dodge accordingly- Curving the bullet means that despite aiming the barrel at his shoulder, it'll curve and hit his chest.

Yes, I would agree that at point blank range bullet curving would be pointless due to the short travel time, but they're using guns, which are ranged weapons.

I don't think you read the counter argument.

Lemme see if I can find it...

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
WTF difference does it make if the bullet curves on the way to it's target? If Selene is standing at point A and fires on Blade, who is at point B, the bullet still starts and ends exactly where it would if she had fired it in a straight line (traditional trajectory.)
.

Because it's about knowing where the bullet's coming from and staying out of its way...If you statistically know that a bullet travels in a straight line then you know that if you are to the left or right of that straight line then you can guarantee you'll be out of it's trajectory....If it can come at you from any angle in a full 360 rotation around you as well as from above then how can you predict its path and guarantee that when you move you wont simply be moving somewhere else along the bullet's trajectory?

Once again...a trajectory isn't where a bullet ends up...It's the path it takes to get there...GK is about knowing that path which you simply can't do if the bullet can come from any angle from the shooters position.

Regardless....what exactly is the point of this thread anyway? Why not just have the characters fight with the skills they actually possess in their respective films

Originally posted by jaden101
Because it's about knowing where the bullet's coming from and staying out of its wayExactly. The bullet is coming point A (Selene's gun) and will be arriving at point B (Blade's face.) What difference does it make if the bullet curves between point A and B? The starting and ending point remain the same. Hell, the bullet could do figure eights and the starting and ending point would be the same.




Again, what difference does it make what the bullet does between point A (Selene's gun) and point B (Blade's face?)

So the bullet curves on the way to Blade. So? It STARTS and ENDS exactly where it would if Selene had fired it in a straight line. Again, by curving the bullet, the flight time is increased. Longer flight time= More time for Blade to Gun kata out of it's way.

Originally posted by jaden101
Because it's about knowing where the bullet's coming from and staying out of its way...If you statistically know that a bullet travels in a straight line then you know that if you are to the left or right of that straight line then you can guarantee you'll be out of it's trajectory....If it can come at you from any angle in a full 360 rotation around you as well as from above then how can you predict its path and guarantee that when you move you wont simply be moving somewhere else along the bullet's trajectory?

Once again...a trajectory isn't where a bullet ends up...It's the path it takes to get there...GK is about knowing that path which you simply can't do if the bullet can come from any angle from the shooters position.

Like I said, those points were addressed, already: it's rather useless to curve the bullet against someone that can use Gun Kata really well like Preston. The curved trajectory of the bullet barely makes any difference when it comes to dodging it.

Originally posted by jaden101
Regardless....what exactly is the point of this thread anyway? Why not just have the characters fight with the skills they actually possess in their respective films


100% Cosigned. I don't like these types of matchups.

Because Blade vs Selene was already done.

He doesn't dodge bullets...He simply knows what direction they would travel and stays out of the way of those trajectories.

Shall we go through exactly what it says in the film?

Through analysis of thousands of recorded gun fights the cleric has determined that the geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically predictable element. The Gun Kata treats the gun as a total weapon. Each fluid position representing a maximum kill zone inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents while keeping the defender clear of STATISTICALLY TRADITIONAL TRAJECTORIES OF RETURN FIRE.

Given that curved shots are utterly out of the realm of anything that gun kata has been employed against then how can they be predictable?...Curved shots aren't statistically traditional trajectories thus rendering gun kata useless against them.

Not only this but how would a extremely fast moving vampire fit the description of statistically predictable antagonist?




You're completely and utterly ignoring what gun kata addresses. It has NOTHING to do with where the bullet starts and finishes...GK relies completely on knowing the path it takes between those points and staying out of that path...You can't do that with certainty when you don't know which direction the bullet is coming from.

Put it this way...If I were to shoot at a target (presume that i'm a perfect "traditional" shot) and you were to stand near the target and not get hit you would know to stand to either side of the target because if you stood between me and the target you would be within its trajectory...if you stood behind the target there would be the danger that it could pass through the target and hit you as you would still be on the same trajectory.

Now...If I could stand directly in front of that target at the same distance but I could make the bullet hit it from any angle how would you know where to stand to stay out of the way of the bullet and not get hit?...How could you know for certain what the trajectory of that bullet would be?...You would employ your knowledge of trajectories as per your gun kata training and stand to either side of the target but what use is that when I can make the bullet come from either side of the target...you'd still be in the bullet's trajectory so your knowledge of where to stand to not get hit becomes completely useless

Originally posted by jaden101





You're completely and utterly ignoring what gun kata addresses. It has NOTHING to do with where the bullet starts and finishes...GK relies completely on knowing the path it takes between those points and staying out of that path...You can't do that with certainty when you don't know which direction the bullet is coming from.

Put it this way...If I were to shoot at a target (presume that i'm a perfect "traditional" shot) and you were to stand near the target and not get hit you would know to stand to either side of the target because if you stood between me and the target you would be within its trajectory...if you stood behind the target there would be the danger that it could pass through the target and hit you as you would still be on the same trajectory.

Now...If I could stand directly in front of that target at the same distance but I could make the bullet hit it from any angle how would you know where to stand to stay out of the way of the bullet and not get hit?...How could you know for certain what the trajectory of that bullet would be?...You would employ your knowledge of trajectories as per your gun kata training and stand to either side of the target but what use is that when I can make the bullet come from either side of the target...you'd still be in the bullet's trajectory so your knowledge of where to stand to not get hit becomes completely useless I know this. I am ignoring nothing. Preston trains in Gun Kata based on bullets traveling from point A (his opponent) to point B (where they are aiming.) These bullets travel in a straight line. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.

Have a bullet curver and a Gun Kata master stand side by side and fire simultaneously at a target 20 feet away. The curver curves his bullet, the Gun Kata gunman fires his bullet in a straight line. Which bullet hits the target first? The bullet fired from the Gun Kata user. Why? Because it travels in a straight line.

Now, if Preston can dodge bullets fired in a straight line (from 20 automatic assault rifles at one FTW), then dodging curved bullets, which take longer getting to him, from two guns, will be that much easier. Add on that Blade is much faster, and yeah. Blade wins this.

Its good to see that the members of this sub-forum are as stupid as ever. Kudos!

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I know this. I am ignoring nothing. Preston trains in Gun Kata based on bullets traveling from point A (his opponent) to point B (where they are aiming.) These bullets travel in a straight line. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.

Have a bullet curver and a Gun Kata master stand side by side and fire simultaneously at a target 20 feet away. The curver curves his bullet, the Gun Kata gunman fires his bullet in a straight line. Which bullet hits the target first? The bullet fired from the Gun Kata user. Why? Because it travels in a straight line.

Now, if Preston can dodge bullets fired in a straight line (from 20 automatic assault rifles at one FTW), then dodging curved bullets, which take longer getting to him, from two guns, will be that much easier. Add on that Blade is much faster, and yeah. Blade wins this.

Well if completely ignoring what is stated during the gun kata training scene in Equilibrium makes you feel better then be my guest. But you're still wrong...If you don't understand why you're wrong by now then there's no point in trying to explain it any further.

It doesn't matter if Blade's vampiric speed and agility aids in his Gunkata ability to shoot a bullet from point A to B at the fastest possible time.

Selene in an early scene in Underworld evolution sped through trees at burst speed. And while doing it is curving bullets into his body.

Blade may be shooting perfect straight bullet lines but he's aiming at air all the while receiving bullets.

I hate this thread already.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its good to see that the members of this sub-forum are as stupid as ever. Kudos!

We've told you before we wont spit roast you no matter how many times you ask.

I wasn't talking about you. You're 100% right.

Originally posted by jaden101
Well if completely ignoring what is stated during the gun kata training scene in Equilibrium makes you feel better then be my guest. But you're still wrong...If you don't understand why you're wrong by now then there's no point in trying to explain it any further. So you're saying that in addition to what was said in Equilibrium, that Preston does NOT know where and when the bullet fired at him will hit?

You're saying that all he had to work with was the bullet flying in a straight line? You are taking the definition of Gun Kata WAY too literally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_%28film%29#Gun_Kata

Gun Kata
Main article: Gun fu

Gun Kata is a fictional gun-fighting martial art discipline that is a significant part of the film. It is based upon the premise that, given the positions of the participants in a gun battle, the trajectories of fire are statistically predictable. By pure memorization of the positions, one can fire at the most likely location of an enemy without aiming at him in the traditional sense of pointing a gun at a specific target. By the same token, the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.

The Gun Kata shown in Equilibrium is a hybrid mix of Kurt Wimmer's own style of Gun Kata (which he invented in his backyard) and the martial arts style of the choreographer. They disagreed on the appropriate form of Gun Kata, with Kurt Wimmer advocating a smoother, flowing style and the choreographer supporting a more rigid style. Much of the Gun Kata seen in the film is based on the choreographer's style. Kurt Wimmer's Gun Kata is dispersed sparsely throughout the movie, most notably in the introductory scene with the silhouetted man, played by Wimmer himself, practicing with dual pistols.

the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.


Now, pay close attention to that last part. You're right, Preston avoids being hit by guessing the flight path/time of incoming fire. He also avoids being hit by knowing where his opponent is shooting from, when they shoot. This enables him to guess when and where the bullet will strike.


So Blade and Selene are mixing it up, trading fire, she is curving her bullets and he is using Gun Kata. What difference does it make if her bullets are curving? All that really matters is where she is when she fires so that Blade can guess when and where the bullet will hit.


Now.....Having said that, I must state again that Selene's biggest weapon here is her speed and her adrenaline boost. If she uses them properly, she wins this 9/10. If she relies on bullet curving more than she relies on her speed, she loses 9/10.

Selene can shoot sideways, in a completely different direction from Blade and still curve it around to hit him. How the hell can Gun Kata predict the trajectory of that?

Because Blade can gun kata away from it. The ending point of the bullet will be the same as if she fired it in a straight line. If anything, by curving the bullet it gives Blade more time to use gun kata.


Straight line>>>>curved line.

ugh3

The ending point will not be the same. Instead of going from point A to point B, the bullet will go straight to point C. Blade, who has dodged point B, still gets hit at point C.

And by pointing her gun in another direction Blade will not know where point B even is, so he won't be able to dodge it anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
ugh3

The ending point will not be the same. Instead of going from point A to point B, the bullet will go straight to point C. Blade, who has dodged point B, still gets hit at point C. Bullet curvers fire at their target/s. They see where their targets are, fire their gun/s, and the bullet curves. The bullet still arrives where their target is. Now, if Blade dodges TOWARDS Selene, I see your point.

Point A: Selene and her gun.

Point B: The curving flight path of the bullet.

Point C: Blade's afro.


The bullet still is fired and arrives at it's target as if it were fired in a straight line. What happens inbetween is irrelevant.


When a bullet curver fires their weapon, they have in mind where they want the bullet to hit. If they want the bullet to curve and hit their opponent in the right eye, the bullet hits exactly where they want it too. Thing is, if their opponent is fast enough to avoid being hit by 30 machien gun toting highly trained killers, odds of being hit by one person wielding two guns is highly unlikely.

It's blatently stated in the film that it's nothing to do with guessing where the opponent is or where the trajectory of the bullet is. Each body position is based on the statistics learned from previous gun fights...The way multiple opponents are distributed in a room is a statistically predictable element. From that knowledge they then add on the layer of bullet trajectories from those same gun fights and then the body positions are devised to stay out of those predictable trajectories.

Once again...There is absolutely nothing predictable about a trajectory that can go from anything from a straight line to a full 360 degree rotation. By the very fact that Gun Kata as it is in Equilibrium will never have encountered a gun fight with curved bullets or opponents with superhuman speed then how can those possibly fit in to Gun Kata's basic principles of using statistics to know where your opponents are and using knowledge of straight line bullet trajectories?

And why are you having me read an article about gun-fu as a basic movie martial art when I've already quoted the exact words from the training scene regarding Gun Kata

The bit you've highlighted is exactly my point...STATISTICALLY PREDICTABLE...But this is entirely based on the gun fights based in the Equilibrium universe which has never had curved bullet trajectories...So how can those statistics incorporate something which hasn't been encountered in that universe?



You can keep repeating this point all you want but it's completely wrong and I've proven that by using the training scene to give the definition of gun kata using TRAJECTORIES (or as you would put it...what happens in between) and the dictionary definition of trajectories.

You're wrong...It's that simple...I don't see why it's so difficult to understand what a bullet trajectory is and how it's relevant given what is stated blatently on screen.

Originally posted by jaden101
It's blatently stated in the film that it's nothing to do with guessing where the opponent is or where the trajectory of the bullet is. Each body position is based on the statistics learned from previous gun fights...The way multiple opponents are distributed in a room is a statistically predictable element. From that knowledge they then add on the layer of bullet trajectories from those same gun fights and then the body positions are devised to stay out of those predictable trajectories. Mhm, and through cleric training, clerics are able to predict where and when incoming bullets will strike. The flight path of the bullet plays into this, yes, I agree. But what matters more is that Preston is shown many times moving from where an opponent was aiming before the bullet arrives. See below:


6pTGXUig6lY&feature=related


His opponents (30ish of them)all firing on him with automatic rifles. He knew when and where they would fire. He knew where and when the bullets would strike. If the bullets had curved, the outcome would have remained the same.

On that note, a bullet curver has never faced an adversary who can do what Preston did in the vid I posted.

Because you are taking what was said way too literally.

What's predictable with Gun Kata (predictable= Guessing)is where and when a bullet will strike.

By guessing the flight trajectories. You can't predict where a bullets going to end up if the barrel isn't even aimed at you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
By guessing the flight trajectories. You can't predict where a bullets going to end up if the barrel isn't even aimed at you. But one can, however, memorize the position of their opponent and judge where and when incoming fire will arrive.

This is why I am saying that Selene would do well to rely on her speed and adrenaline boost here more than bullet curving.

No, you can't because he has no fricking idea where its going to end up becuase the flipping gun isn't even pointing at him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
ugh3

The ending point will not be the same. Instead of going from point A to point B, the bullet will go straight to point C. Blade, who has dodged point B, still gets hit at point C.

And by pointing her gun in another direction Blade will not know where point B even is, so he won't be able to dodge it anyway.

I give the same comment to you:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its good to see that the members of this sub-forum are as stupid as ever. Kudos!

Cause I quite clearly explained the fallacy of your exact argument in a previous thread.


Originally posted by jaden101
You can keep repeating this point all you want but it's completely wrong and I've proven that by using the training scene to give the definition of gun kata using TRAJECTORIES (or as you would put it...what happens in between) and the dictionary definition of trajectories.

You're wrong...It's that simple...I don't see why it's so difficult to understand what a bullet trajectory is and how it's relevant given what is stated blatently on screen.

And I've taken a shit all over your argument, too. So we are back at square one: Bullet curving is either not advantageous at all or it does nothing for fights against Gun Kata experts.

So, you're wrong and it's that simple. I don't see why it's so difficult to understand that they are the same points of arrival and the very minuscule differences in the trajectories and how it's irrelevant because of what was directly stated on screen.


RJ told me, "But what about a circular shot?" So Selene is going to shoot herself in the head, huh? A boomerang shot is the last resort. It is MAD.

Well I guess I'm stupid for not reading that thread then.

I can understand why you don't want to actually argue with me though. I can be rather daunting.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, you can't because he has no fricking idea where its going to end up becuase the flipping gun isn't even pointing at him. This is why Gun Kata users rely on memorizing the locations of their opponents. They don't have to even see them.


KZ3nS7T1e0M


Preston, alone in the dark, unable to see his enemies, takes out like ten of them.


Next?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I guess I'm stupid for not reading that thread then.

Nah. Just re-using your insult. I don't think any of us are stupid.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can understand why you don't want to actually argue with me though. I can be rather daunting.


HA!



I could go look for it. But I really don't want to search through hundreds of MVF posts.


Edit - Holy shit, I found it.

It worked because I used quotes so it would find a string literal...and then I went to the very last page of the results...and then worked my way backwards. It was the second post! YES!

Originally posted by dadudemon
lol


That's not how I envisioned it, in 3D space, at all. You forgot up, down, backwards, and forwards. You have him moving only in two, very linear, and uncharacteristic direction.

Also, the bullets wouldn't travel in a perfect circle and, in fact, it only happened once: fox shot a bullet at the end there that killed everyone.

All the other shots curve, more, at the beginning of the shot, and, as they should, as it travels, the shot becomes less curved, OR, vice versa.



Despite that fact that none of that could be done in the real world, with any kind of bullet.



Still doesn't change anything about the bullet. And, you're drawings are wrong, as well.

Not only does it incorrectly assume Preston is dodging any bullets, it also assumes that he will dodge right into the bullet's path when there's many many other locations that he could and would dodge into.


For some reason, an entire room of 10 or more men, armed with fully automatics, missed him completely. This is dealing with many more trajectories, at once, with multiple bullets from each trajectory.

This is on top of him not only dodging them, but not even getting nicked by them. Meaning, he's dodging them by a comfortable margin.

Now, assuming your drawing above (which is not a perfect ellipsoid, it actually elongates at the beginning or end, in the movie, as it should, except for one shot by Fox at the end), just moving in the same exact direction he would use to avoid the bullet, would still work. This, however, incorrectly assumes that they would even get a curved shot off. BTW, their curved shot is a one shot deal (I know they can do it multiple times, but they literally don't have the time to set themselves for a second shot) that takes them longer to pull off than a regular shot. They would end up with 3 bullets, each, in the chest, before the got done firing. Assuming that Preston, illogically, would stop right into the almost straight curve (cause they are curving over a long distance, so the line is virtually straight in the relatively small space the Preston is moving in), that still results in mutally assured destruction, with Zero surviving, meaning, Preston Zero still win.



That of course assumes a false premise that they would even be able to get that shot off.


Here's a much better depiction of what actually would happen:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/untitled.jpg

Here's an image with an overly exaggerated curve, as it would travel. The blue one is obviously the straight shot. As I said, mere inches of a difference that would be insignificant. Preston would move out of that bullet's way (or trajectory if you guys are still hung up on that), but moving every place that would be out of the way of the regular bullet's path. That's like.....a HUGE amount of choices. He can still move in any direction, cause, guess what? The curved bullet only makes the difference of a 2 or 3 inches, at the back, of the trajectory. If he is avoiding the trajecotry, instead of the impact point, that's even better.

We know for a fact that Preston is dodging with inches of clearance: unless any of you can find an scene of Preston's clothes "flapping" or his hair flapping from the bullets whizzing by? lol. You can't. Cause he dodges with plenty of room to spare.


So, in the off-hand chance that he would uncharacteristically dodge out of the typical trajectory that we would expect, right into the curved path, which only varies, at the back, by 2 or 3 inches (or less, depending on how far away he is from Wes or Fox), they are still dead.




Let's keep things real and not gimp other characters for the sake of beating RJ in an argument. (That's all I see here: gimping to win an argument against RJ.)



Why, for some magical reason, is preston only allowed to move into the bullets' paths when he would clearly dodge out of the way of many curved shots?



Also, why is Preston being gimped by everyone? Wes and Fox would both end up with multiple bullets through their chest or head before the would even finish their arm-swing for the bullet curve. On top of that, why would Wes and Fox use a curved bullet when Preston is right there in front of them, with a clear path? Isn't that also uncharacteristic of them? Why wouldn't Wes or Fox, you know....shoot one or two of the bullets out of the air before they end up dead? But, that would be too logical: assuming that they would try to save themselves instead of making a curved shot at someone right in front of them.


Send Preston into the Assasin compound and he clears each room out in a tenth the time it took Wes and co to clear them out. He wouldn't even need suicide rats.

Why would we even need to add Agent Zero, here?




Because it's not idiotic. See the image I drew, that has an exaggerated path.

Let's be clear: the only idiotic thing about this is assuming that the curved path makes any difference at all.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This is why Gun Kata users rely on memorizing the locations of their opponents. They don't have to even see them.


KZ3nS7T1e0M


Preston, alone in the dark, unable to see his enemies, takes out like ten of them.


Next?

He didn't dodge a single bullet in that clip. He didn't even move.



I would be easier to just type the gist of it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't dodge a single bullet in that clip. He didn't even move.
He moved quite a bit, actually.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I would be easier to just type the gist of it.

Or how about I type up the horrendously awesome pwnage?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't dodge a single bullet in that clip. He didn't even move.



Yet he still knew the locations of all the shooters, all ten (ish) of them, managed to take them out, and managed to not get hit. Now, imagine Blade, with his far superior speed and agility, with Preston's abilities. Imagine if Preston, in the vid below, had Blade's speed, strength and agility:

6pTGXUig6lY


Next?

I don't understand you picture. Is Preston supposed to be dodging the blue or black line? Because he wouldn't dodge the blue line because thats not where the barrels pointing. He'd dodge in a straight line, exactly where the first part of the black line points to, but he'd be wrong to do that because where he thinks the bullets going to end up, directly in front of the black line, isn't where its going to end up. Its going to curve and by moving out of the way, he actually has a chance of stepping right into the path of the bullet.

You guys think that he'd dodge the blue line, but he wouldn't. He has no idea where the bullets going to end up. Thus is Gun Kata is useless.

Originally posted by dadudemon



And I've taken a shit all over your argument, too. So we are back at square one: Bullet curving is either not advantageous at all or it does nothing for fights against Gun Kata experts.

So, you're wrong and it's that simple. I don't see why it's so difficult to understand that they are the same points of arrival and the very minuscule differences in the trajectories and how it's irrelevant because of what was directly stated on screen.


RJ told me, "But what about a circular shot?" So Selene is going to shoot herself in the head, huh? A boomerang shot is the last resort. It is MAD.

How is a possibly 90 angle a minuscule difference in trajectory? What's so difficult to understand in that gun kata teaches a cleric to be at either side of a straight line shot but bullet curving can mean the bullet travels to the target from the side thus the cleric will only be moving along that trajectory and therefore still be in the way?

What kind of a silly argument is the last point anyway? It's not like Selene is going to be standing still is it? Clearly she would be looking to shoot herself in the head but that doesn't mean she cant curve the bullet full 360 while on the move (seeing as we're bestowing these attributes on her)



Once again it's got nothing to do with memorizing or knowing where the enemies are.

Clearly I need to quote it again



It's about using statistics to predict how enemies will be distributed throughout a room.

So until someone can state how a form of martial arts that specifically uses statistics based on the gun fights from it's own universe can accommodate techniques that have never been shown in any gun fights in that universe?

How does Gun Kata's statistics utilise curved bullet trajectories and create body positions to avoid those curved trajectories when it's never even conceived of curved trajectories?

No, he doesn't

He jumps into the room and then just stands up. He didn't dodge at all when he was sliding into the room and it was sheer luck that they didn't hit him. Then he jsut stands there. No dodging at all.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yet he still knew the locations of all the shooters, all ten (ish) of them, managed to take them out, and managed to not get hit. Now, imagine Blade, with his far superior speed and agility, with Preston's abilities. Imagine if Preston, in the vid below, had Blade's speed, strength and agility:

6pTGXUig6lY


Next?

Wow, the troopers didn't get off a single shot against him in the entire vid. He didn't dodge bullcrap.

Originally posted by jaden101




Once again it's got nothing to do with memorizing or knowing where the enemies are.

Clearly I need to quote it again



It's about using statistics to predict how enemies will be distributed throughout a room.

So until someone can state how a form of martial arts that specifically uses statistics based on the gun fights from it's own universe can accommodate techniques that have never been shown in any gun fights in that universe?

How does Gun Kata's statistics utilise curved bullet trajectories and create body positions to avoid those curved trajectories when it's never even conceived of curved trajectories?


Oh yeah? And what exactly is Preston doing at 1:04 in the vid below?

KZ3nS7T1e0M


He's listening. He's memorizing the positoions of his opponents. Why? So he can predict two things: A: Where they will be firing from, and B: Where the bullets will strike.

Originally posted by Nephthys




Wow, the troopers didn't get off a single shot against him in the entire vid. He didn't dodge bullcrap. I posted the vid to stress how much faster Blade would be than Preston is, dude.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't understand you picture. Is Preston supposed to be dodging the blue or black line?

That's actually not the point at all. That's a stationary target and it shows the different paths a curved bullet would be taking on that stationary target. The point is quite clear and my trying to illustrate 3 dimensions in a 2d picture would be quite stupid.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he wouldn't dodge the blue line because thats not where the barrels pointing.

You missed the point, entirely. It doesn't matter where he dodges because that makes a massive 2 to 3 inch difference, at the most.


Originally posted by Nephthys
He'd dodge in a straight line,/B]

Dude, did you even read the post?

Originally posted by Nephthys
exactly where the first part of the black line points to, but he'd be wrong to do that because where he thinks the bullets going to end up, directly in front of the black line, isn't where its going to end up. Its going to curve and by moving out of the way, he actually has a chance of stepping right into the path of the bullet.


If you read my post, you'd see why that's not even a relevant point. Read the post, not just look at the picture.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You guys think that he'd dodge the blue line, but he wouldn't. He has no idea where the bullets going to end up. Thus is Gun Kata is useless.

No, he'd dodge the black line and end up dodging the blue line, too. That's the entire point.

Originally posted by jaden101
How is a possibly 90 angle a minuscule difference in trajectory? What's so difficult to understand in that gun kata teaches a cleric to be at either side of a straight line shot but bullet curving can mean the bullet travels to the target from the side thus the cleric will only be moving along that trajectory and therefore still be in the way?

What kind of a silly argument is the last point anyway? It's not like Selene is going to be standing still is it? Clearly she would be looking to shoot herself in the head but that doesn't mean she cant curve the bullet full 360 while on the move (seeing as we're bestowing these attributes on her)



Once again it's got nothing to do with memorizing or knowing where the enemies are.

Clearly I need to quote it again



It's about using statistics to predict how enemies will be distributed throughout a room.

So until someone can state how a form of martial arts that specifically uses statistics based on the gun fights from it's own universe can accommodate techniques that have never been shown in any gun fights in that universe?

How does Gun Kata's statistics utilise curved bullet trajectories and create body positions to avoid those curved trajectories when it's never even conceived of curved trajectories?

Your post is a complete waste of time. You didn't even pay attention to anything you've been told. You're worse than any idea people have about RJ.

He's seeing where to shoot. After he starts shooting he stands completetly still and doesn't even turn his head. No dodging.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's seeing where to shoot. After he starts shooting he stands completetly still and doesn't even turn his head. No dodging.
Oh, I see your point. Yeah, I thought you were trying to say that he didn't move..which is what you originally stated. I was like....how the hell did he shot everyone around him if he didn't move? He had to move his arms to do that.


My bad.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah. Just re-using your insult. I don't think any of us are stupid.

etc


Yet there's loads on examples from Wanted where the bullet trajectory is far more than the slight curve you're making their shots out to be.

The opening scene where Mr X fires a shot that travels straight and then at the last minute bends 90 degrees around a wall and kills the enemy. Fox's full 360 degree curve of the bullet. Wesley's train roof assassination scene.

So arguing that they can only put a slight curve on the bullet is just not true

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's seeing where to shoot. After he starts shooting he stands completetly still and doesn't even turn his head. No dodging. That fight was against a buncha non trained sense offenders. Once he knew where they were, it was all over. He didn't need to dodge.

See below for Preston knowing the locations of his opponents and using Gun Kata to avoid being hit:

6pTGXUig6lY


30 men, dude, all firing automatic rifles, and he was never hit.

NO. HE. WOULDN'T.

Dear God.

I'll return to destroy your post tommorrow.

Ooooohhh, edit!!!

Yet I'm not the one blatently ignoring what Gun Kata is as stated on screen in equilibrium and I'm not the one lying about or ignoring the capabilities of bullet bending as shown on Wanted.

I've quoted Equilibrium to the letter and it backs my point and I've given examples from Wanted to back up my point where as you make a diagram showing a slight curved trajectory and try and pass this off as the limits of what bullet curving is. And then you both try to say that Gun Kata has nothing to do with the path the bullet takes despite the fact that the film states in plain English that this is precisely what Gun Kata is based on (along with the predictable distribution of the opponents)

So unless you're actually going to counter those points and show me how GK can take into consideration trajectories that it's never encountered then you'd be as well not posting.

I felt bad for insulting him so badly. No-ones that bad.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi



30 men, dude, all firing automatic rifles, and he was never hit.

And why...because GK teaches him what the trajectories of those bullets will be and he's able to keep his body out of the line of fire using GK techniques. Yet with bullet curving he wouldn't have a clue what the trajectories of those bullets would be so his GK technique is nullified.

Originally posted by jaden101
Yet I'm not the one blatently ignoring what Gun Kata is as stated on screen in equilibrium and I'm not the one lying about or ignoring the capabilities of bullet bending as shown on Wanted.

I've quoted Equilibrium to the letter and it backs my point and I've given examples from Wanted to back up my point where as you make a diagram showing a slight curved trajectory and try and pass this off as the limits of what bullet curving is. And then you both try to say that Gun Kata has nothing to do with the path the bullet takes despite the fact that the film states in plain English that this is precisely what Gun Kata is based on (along with the predictable distribution of the opponents)

So unless you're actually going to counter those points and show me how GK can take into consideration trajectories that it's never encountered then you'd be as well not posting. You're hung up on the trajectories. Gun Kata is based on avoiding being where your opponent aims. By predicting where the bullet will arrive based on where they are located when they fire.

A curved bullet will arrive at precisely the same location as one fired in a straight line. The flight path of the bullet is irrelevant. All that matters is the Gun Kata user is able to avoid being where the bullet curver intends for the bullet to strike.

Originally posted by jaden101
And why...because GK teaches him what the trajectories of those bullets will be and he's able to keep his body out of the line of fire using GK techniques. Yet with bullet curving he wouldn't have a clue what the trajectories of those bullets would be so his GK technique is nullified.


Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You're hung up on the trajectories. Gun Kata is based on avoiding being where your opponent aims. By predicting where the bullet will arrive based on where they are located when they fire.

A curved bullet will arrive at precisely the same location as one fired in a straight line. The flight path of the bullet is irrelevant. All that matters is the Gun Kata user is able to avoid being where the bullet curver intends for the bullet to strike.

Got it in one. And the whole point about bullet bending is that the bullet doesn't end up where you aim.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You're hung up on the trajectories. Gun Kata is based on avoiding being where your opponent aims. By predicting where the bullet will arrive based on where they are located when they fire.

A curved bullet will arrive at precisely the same location as one fired in a straight line. The flight path of the bullet is irrelevant. All that matters is the Gun Kata user is able to avoid being where the bullet curver intends for the bullet to strike.

NO IT'S NOT.

I'll quote it again.



The end point has nothing to do with it because it's about staying out of the bullet's way along it's entire flight path (trajectory) regardless of where you are in relation to the shooter.

His entire training is based on the premise that bullet trajectories are straight lines...

Look at it from the opposite premise...Imagine every single bullet curves and hits their opponent at a 90 degree angle...GK would use that data and produce body movements that would mean either stepping towards or away from the firing position (or over/under given some of the positions shown in the GK training). Now imagine the bullets suddenly can start travelling in a straight line from the shooter...Your previously learned moves are, for the most part, going to simply have you move back and forward along the bullet's trajectory meaning that it doesn't matter if you move 10 ft towards or away from the shooter you're still in the way of the bullet's flight path.

Same applies with this scenario. Although the bullet can potentially come from any angle.

I'm not saying every bullet is going to hit the intended target but your body positions will become generally useless for definitely keeping you out of harm's way. The statistics that GK is based on would be useless and you would be relying much more on simply being lucky that your body position was out of the bullet's flight path rather than anything to do with your skill or training.

Now if you want to say that the version of GK that Blade is using has been refined to take into consideration curved bullets then that's another matter...But then it also wouldn't be GK as shown in Equilibrium. It would also rely on knowing your opponents exact body movements prior to the shot being fired so as to take into consideration the forces applied to make the bullet curve and thus knowing to what extent it will curve.


That is what

Originally posted by Nephthys
I felt bad for insulting him so badly. No-ones that bad. Why thank you. BTW, I won't report you no matter what you say.


And I'll destroy the shit out of anything you type up, tomorrow. Guess why? I've already pwned anything you can think of. Jaden? Yeah, I'll just ignore his points because he's a broken record: something that Sadako and RJ should learn how to do with each other.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why thank you. BTW, I won't report you no matter what you say.


And I'll destroy the shit out of anything you type up, tomorrow. Guess why? I've already pwned anything you can think of. Jaden? Yeah, I'll just ignore his points because I have no counter to them: something that Sadako and RJ should learn how to do with each other.

Fixed.

Hhahahaaha, this again.

Anyhow, just like the Wesley and Preston, probably whomever shoots first, with the advantage to the person who can make the crazy-angle shots. Selene.

Originally posted by jaden101
NO IT'S NOT. U mad, bro? We yelling now? K.....YES IT IS!!!!

Quote it. Write i down. Take a picture. I don't give a ****.



Lulz, dude. Listen to what you are saying. The bullet ends up where the bullet curver wants it. The fact that they are not aiming directly at their opponent when they fire is besides the point. If Blade knows that Selene can aim to her right and curve a bullet that will hit him, all he has to do is Gun Kata as if she is aiming right at him. The only difference is that the bullet curves as it travels instead of traveling in a straight line.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Got it in one. And the whole point about bullet bending is that the bullet doesn't end up where you aim. Ahahahaha dude, the bullet ends up where the bullet curver wants it. In the skull of their victim.

"K I'm gonna aim to my right, curve a bullet, and take dude out."

Doesn't matter if they are aiming right at their victim or off to the side. The bullet ends up in the same place. So......the Gun Kata simply uses Gun Kata to avoid being hit.


Unless the Gun Kata user is totally clueless that their opponent can curve bullets, that's another thing altogether. Then, yeah, I totally agree with you and Jaden.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The bullet ends up where the bullet curver wants it. The fact that they are not aiming directly at their opponent when they fire is besides the point. If Blade knows that Selene can aim to her right and curve a bullet that will hit him, all he has to do is Gun Kata as if she is aiming right at him. The only difference is that the bullet curves as it travels instead of traveling in a straight line.

You're completely missing what was said in the film about Gunkata. Gunkata would allow Blade to avoid bullets by factoring in shooter position and known trajectories of gun-fire. Selene being able to do away with known trajectories due to her impossible-like abilities to make a fired bullet not travel in a straight line counters the very rules of Gunkata.

Unless Blade somehow knows the bullet(s) is going to curve left, right, up down, he risks the chance of moving right into the bullet's path instead of out of its way.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're completely missing what was said in the film about Gunkata. Gunkata would allow Blade to avoid bullets by factoring in shooter position and known trajectories of gun-fire. Selene being able to do away with known trajectories due to her impossible-like abilities to make a fired bullet not travel in a straight line counters the very rules of Gunkata.

Unless Blade somehow knows the bullet(s) is going to curve left, right, up down, he risks the chance of moving right into the bullet's path instead of out of its way. I already covered this. The start and end point of the curvers bullet remains the same. All that changes is the direction it takes getting there. The fact that the flight path of the bullet takes on an arc changes nothing.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I already covered this. The start and end point of the curvers bullet remains the same. All that changes is the direction it takes getting there. The fact that the flight path of the bullet takes on an arc changes nothing.

The point of gun kata isn't about getting out of the way where the bullet ends up...It's about staying out the bullet's way on it's entire flight path (trajectory) from the instant it leaves the gun until it hits a wall or whatever. If you cant use GK to predict the entire flight path of the bullet then you wont know where to move or which stance to take to stay out of that flight path. It's that simple.

But, because the gun isn't pointing at the place where the bullets going to end up, the dude doesn't know where the bullets going to end up. He has no idea where the bullets going to end up. Sure the bullet will end up in the same place as it would in a straight shot, but Blade doesn't know where that is because he can't predict anything about where the bullets going to end up or how its going to get there. Selene could aim at his head and then hit him in the leg. Blade will see that the gun is pointed at his head and move out of the way of that, only to still get hit in the leg because he didn't know he had to move his leg. Or Selene will point the gun upwards and Blade will have no idea where the bullets going to hit him from, so he gets a face full a bullet.


This isn't hard to get people, ****ing hell.

OK, one more time. Watch the vid below. FF to 3:12.


6pTGXUig6lY


The clerics/cops see Preston standing at the end of the hallway. He is stationary. They raise their weapons and fire on him. Preston does his flippy spin move and avoids being hit.

His opponents were at point A. Preston was at point B. His opponents fired from point A, the bullets traveled to their desired location, point B, but Preston was no longer there. How? Why? Because Preston saw where they were, heard when they fired, and was able to predict where and when the bullets would arrive.


Thee you have it. Preston avoids being hit by staying out of the flight path of the bullet, AND avoiding being where his opponent intends for the bullet to strike home. He does BOTH.


BTW: Those machine gun rounds travel faster than 9mm bullets. Blade, with his vampire attributes AND Gun Kata on par with Preston, yeah, Selene's gonna fail with bullet curving. Her only chance is the adrenaline boost, and at this point I think even that won't be enough.

gun kata wouldn't work with bullet bending plain & simple

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I already covered this. The start and end point of the curvers bullet remains the same. All that changes is the direction it takes getting there. The fact that the flight path of the bullet takes on an arc changes nothing.

Post the vid where the Father explains the workings on Gunkata and you'll see it directly poops on what you're saying.

A curving bullet negates Blade's ability to predict bullet trajectory and he would risk moving into the bullet. Not saying it will happen for sure, but it's now a throw of the dice instead of the precise calculations of Gunkata.

Edit: Here, I found it:

LEPNmj1SEeA

Key words: "while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire."

A curving bullet would not follow a 'statistical traditional trajectory' and it couldn't be mathematically calculated by a Gunkata user. ie The fool could lilkly as well move into the path instead of outside of it.

edit: Darn, ninja'd!

Originally posted by Robtard
Post the vid where the Father explains the workings on Gunkata and you'll see it directly poops on what you're saying.

A curving bullet negates Blade's ability to predict bullet trajectory and he would risk moving into the bullet. Not saying it will happen for sure, but it's now a throw of the dice instead of the precise calculations of Gunkata.

Edit: Here, I found it:

LEPNmj1SEeA

Key words: "while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire."

A curving bullet would not follow a 'statistical traditional trajectory' and it couldn't be mathematically calculated by a Gunkata user. ie The fool could lilkly as well move into the path instead of outside of it.


Pay attention:

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, one more time. Watch the vid below. FF to 3:12.


6pTGXUig6lY


The clerics/cops see Preston standing at the end of the hallway. He is stationary. They raise their weapons and fire on him. Preston does his flippy spin move and avoids being hit.

His opponents were at point A. Preston was at point B. His opponents fired from point A, the bullets traveled to their desired location, point B, but Preston was no longer there. How? Why? Because Preston saw where they were, heard when they fired, and was able to predict where and when the bullets would arrive.


Thee you have it. Preston avoids being hit by staying out of the flight path of the bullet, AND avoiding being where his opponent intends for the bullet to strike home. He does BOTH.


BTW: Those machine gun rounds travel faster than 9mm bullets. Blade, with his vampire attributes AND Gun Kata on par with Preston, yeah, Selene's gonna fail with bullet curving. Her only chance is the adrenaline boost, and at this point I think even that won't be enough.

Originally posted by Robtard
Post the vid where the Father explains the workings on Gunkata and you'll see it directly poops on what you're saying.

A curving bullet negates Blade's ability to predict bullet trajectory and he would risk moving into the bullet. Not saying it will happen for sure, but it's now a throw of the dice instead of the precise calculations of Gunkata.

Edit: Here, I found it:

LEPNmj1SEeA

Key words: "while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire."

A curving bullet would not follow a 'statistical traditional trajectory' and it couldn't be mathematically calculated by a Gunkata user. ie The fool could lilkly as well move into the path instead of outside of it.

Yeah, he'd move out of the way of the "a" path bullet and in doing so, accidentally move out of the curved "b" path bullets...which I've covered already....all based on trajectory probabilities. Hooray for Gun Kata kicking so much ass, right?



Originally posted by Nephthys
edit: Darn, ninja'd!
I know, right? I Pwned that point aaaaaaaaages ago.


estahuh

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Pay attention:

Hypocrisy FTW, eh? You obviously aren't grasping what was said in the vid specifically about Gunkata: "while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire."

The oddest thing here, you vehemently argued that Hit-Girl and her couple little flips would counter Gunkata, but a person who can bend bullets at impossible angles now can't.

One thing you're right about, if this were a close starting fight, say a gun standoff, Blade would have the advantage instead of Selene.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, he'd move out of the way of the "a" path bullet and in doing so, accidentally move out of the curved "b" path bullets...which I've covered already....all based on trajectory probabilities. Hooray for Gun Kata kicking so much ass, right?


Or accidentally move into it, considering he can't do the math for something that doesn't follow known statistics. It's a flip of the coin.

Originally posted by Robtard
Hypocrisy FTW, eh? You obviously aren't grasping what was said in the vid specifically about Gunkata: "while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire."

The oddest thing here, you vehemently argued that Hit-Girl and her couple little flips would counter Gunkata, but a person who can bend bullets at impossible angles now can't.

One thing you're right about, if this were a close starting fight, say a gun standoff, Blade would have the advantage instead of Selene. Lulz you're not paying attention. You skipped the part where I pwned this thread.

Not surprising, considering it doesn't exist.

No? K, let's try this differently.

In the hallway shootout scene, The guards are standing at point A. Preston enters the hallway and stands at point B.


Can we agree on that much?

NO. Clearly the guards are standing at point 1 and Preston is standing at point 2.

crackers

Originally posted by Nephthys
NO. Clearly the guards are standing at point 1 and Preston is standing at point 2.

crackers K, have it your way.

The guards then open up with automatic fire from position 1, intending for their bullets to strike Preston, who is standing at position 2.


With me so far?

No.

Just because.

K. Preston then avoided being hit by using Gun Kata, predicting where the bullets were intended to hit him.


He predicted where the bullets were intended to strike him (point B.) Point B is the same even if the bullets had been curved.


So.......Yeah, I know you see it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Lulz you're not paying attention. You skipped the part where I pwned this thread.

"while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire."

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
K. Preston then avoided being hit by using Gun Kata, predicting where the bullets were intended to hit him.


He predicted where the bullets were intended to strike him (point B.) Point B is the same even if the bullets had been curved.
"while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire."

Your "Point B" doesn't matter if he happens to step into the path of a bullet he can't factor in because it's not following "statistically traditional trajectories", which is a distinct possibility here. Or to dumb it down further, he gets hit before the bullet arrives at "Point B."

Dude, stop. It's over.

No, not until you understand how Gunkata works and comprehend the verbal explanation given in the film/clip I posted. I know you have it in you.

"while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire." <--- really think about the specific wording of this quote.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, not until you understand how Gunkata works and comprehend the verbal explanation given in the film/clip I posted. I know you have it in you.

"while keeping the defendant clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire." <--- really think about the specific wording of this quote. I understand that. I acknowledge that. What you need to acknowledge is that in addition staying clear of the traditional trajectories of return fire, Preston also avoided being hit by not being where the bullet was intended to strike him.


He did both. It's in the vid, therefore it is not open for debate. What is seen>>>>>What is said.


It's over.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I understand that. I acknowledge that. What you need to acknowledge is that in addition staying clear of the traditional trajectories of return fire, Preston also avoided being hit by not being where the bullet was intended to strike him.


He did both. It's in the vid, therefore it is not open for debate. What is seen>>>>>What is said.


It's over.

No, you clearly don't. You were basically arguing the opposite you are now in the Preston Vs Hit-Girl thread.

Both your scenarios are one and the same; Preston did so by factoring in the "statistically traditional trajectories" of the guns/bullets he was facing, which is the point here. Granted, what he did is possible only in fiction, it still has rules, as stated in the film.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, you clearly don't. You were basically arguing the opposite you are now in the Preston Vs Hit-Girl thread.

Both your scenarios are one and the same; Preston did so by factoring in the "statistically traditional trajectories" of the guns/bullets he was facing, which is the point here. Granted, what he did is possible only in fiction, it still has rules, as stated in the film.


You haven't even read my entire argument here, have you? Totally different than my argument in the HG thread. Big ass fail, dude.

What you seem to be ignoring or not understanding RJ is that a standard bullet traveling from point A(Muzzle) to point B(Target) is not necessarily the same as a curved bullet. If someone points and pulls the trigger at someones forehead, the bullet will hit their forehead. If someone bends the bullet, it could curve up, come down and hit them in the exact same spot. Or it could hit them in the temple, or be curved down and hit them in the leg. Their is absolutely nothing traditional about that, since the path and destination of the bullet is only known by the shooter.

Preston would be sh*t out of luck if that entire warehouse was full of fraternity.

I understand that. Point is that Preston uses Gun Kata to:

A: Avoid the traditional trajectory of incoming bullets.

B: Also uses Gun Kata to avoid being at the bullets desired destination.



It's right there in the vid.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You haven't even read my entire argument here, have you? Totally different than my argument in the HG thread. Big ass fail, dude.

I have, which is why I said "you're arguing the opposite in regards to Gunkata" now. Somehow Gunkata would fail against Hit-Girl because she does a couple of flips, but now Gunkata is factoring in curving rounds. Does not follow logic, the too.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I understand that. Point is that Preston uses Gun Kata to:

A: Avoid the traditional trajectory of incoming bullets.

B: Also uses Gun Kata to avoid being at the bullets desired destination.



It's right there in the vid.

And how did the bullet(s) in your "B)" arrive at the desired destination?

Survey says: By following ""statistically traditional trajectories" of the way bullets travel.

Originally posted by Robtard
And how did the bullet(s) in your "B)" arrive at the desired destination?

Survey says: By following ""statistically traditional trajectories" of the way bullets travel. haermm I never denied that. My point stands. Preston avoided being hit by knowing where and when the bullets would arrive and not being there. It's right there in the vid. I have video evidence to back mine up.


Originally posted by Robtard
I have, which is why I said "you're arguing the opposite in regards to Gunkata" now. Somehow Gunkata would fail against Hit-Girl because she does a couple of flips, but now Gunkata is factoring in curving rounds. Does not follow logic, the too. Hit Girl is a legit bullet dodger, bro. You wanna argue that, find and bump the thread.

Originally posted by Robtard
Or accidentally move into it, considering he can't do the math for something that doesn't follow known statistics. It's a flip of the coin.

I agree that this is a possibility. But the volume with which he can move into versus the very tiny volume that will kill him is gigantically different.

Originally posted by Nephthys
NO. Clearly the guards are standing at point 1 and Preston is standing at point 2.

crackers

PWNED!

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
haermm I never denied that. My point stands. Preston avoided being hit by knowing where and when the bullets would arrive and not being there. It's right there in the vid. I have video evidence to back mine up.


Hit Girl is a legit bullet dodger, bro. You wanna argue that, find and bump the thread.

And what method did he use to know when the bullets would arrive? Answer: using 'statistically traditional trajectories' of bullet travel. Which can't be factored if the bullet(s) are curving at impossible trajectories.

Somewhat correct, but that wasn't your argument and not the point, you argued that Gunkata would fail against her because she can do little flips and what not while shooting. But now Gunkata doesn't fail with curving bullets. No, Hit-Girl like Potter is a character that needs lots of rest in the MVF.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree that this is a possibility. But the volume with which he can move into versus the very tiny volume that will kill him is gigantically different.


Glad we agree on that. Yes and no, I think we can both agree that Selene with Wanted powers has dead aim and Gunkata users only generally move in a small area, so the odds of Blade side-stepping, back-stepping etc into the flight path of the round(s) isn't that skewed, imo.

But there is the scene when Preston went ape-shit over his dog and he was all over the ****ing place. IMO, depends what Blade does, little-steps or all over the place.

I still think that between these two it would come down to who gets the first shot and puts one between their opponent's eyes, with an edge to the bullet-bender. She also now has the ability to shoot bullets out of the air, as seen in Wanted, another plus on her side.

You're almost there...He doesn't avoid where the bullet will end up because the bullet will keep on travelling if he isn't there...He avoids the direction the bullet is travelling...He knows where it will be coming from with straight shots...He doesn't with curved shots thus his chances of choosing the right place to be to and the right "fluid position" to avoid it are drastically reduced and not statistically predictable.

Originally posted by Robtard
And what method did he use to know when the bullets would arrive? Gun Kata!!!!

True.

BUT....."traditional trajectories"= a straight line. If the bullet curver curver curves the bullet, the Gun Kata has that much more time to evade.

It's simple, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Doesn't matter what the bullet does between the two points.

No. I argued that a Gun Kata user memorizes the locations of his opponents and directs his fire to those locations. I argued that Hit Girl's ability to dodge 3 bullets at point blank range nukes this.

As long as the bullets start and end in the same locations, no.


Sure!!!



Then there's this:

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, one more time. Watch the vid below. FF to 3:12.


6pTGXUig6lY


The clerics/cops see Preston standing at the end of the hallway. He is stationary. They raise their weapons and fire on him. Preston does his flippy spin move and avoids being hit.

His opponents were at point A. Preston was at point B. His opponents fired from point A, the bullets traveled to their desired location, point B, but Preston was no longer there. How? Why? Because Preston saw where they were, heard when they fired, and was able to predict where and when the bullets would arrive.


Thee you have it. Preston avoids being hit by staying out of the flight path of the bullet, AND avoiding being where his opponent intends for the bullet to strike home. He does BOTH.


BTW: Those machine gun rounds travel faster than 9mm bullets. Blade, with his vampire attributes AND Gun Kata on par with Preston, yeah, Selene's gonna fail with bullet curving. Her only chance is the adrenaline boost, and at this point I think even that won't be enough.


No counter for that.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi


BUT....."traditional trajectories"= a straight line. If the bullet curver curver curves the bullet, the Gun Kata has that much more time to evade.

It's simple, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Doesn't matter what the bullet does between the two points.

No counter for that.


Cept the Gunkata'er won't be able to factor in where to safely move himself. As stated over and over, he could position himself in the bullet(s) path instead of outside of it.

Cept Gunkata is designed to factor in trajectories; which exactly relates her as the distance between the fired gun and the bullet's final destination. You're essentially ignoring the key elements of Gunkata with that second statement of yours.

The counter is not ignoring how Gunkata works as stated.

Originally posted by Robtard
Cept the Gunkata'er won't be able to factor in where to safely move himself. As stated over and over, he could position himself in the bullet(s) path instead of outside of it. He could also avoid being where the bullet is intended to strike him, as Preston did in the vid I posted.

Gun Kata is designed to factor in trajectories on bullets flying in a straight line. Curving the bullet increases the distance/flight time of the bullet. This makes it that much easier for a Gun Kata user to avoid being hit. UNLESS they evade TOWARDS their opponent. If they evade side to side, they're fine.

Gun Kata works as stated AND showed. What is showed>>>>what is stated.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
He could also avoid being where the bullet is intended to strike him, as Preston did in the vid I posted.

Gun Kata is designed to factor in trajectories on bullets flying in a straight line. Curving the bullet increases the distance/flight time of the bullet. This makes it that much easier for a Gun Kata user to avoid being hit. UNLESS they evade TOWARDS their opponent. If they evade side to side, they're fine.

Gun Kata works as stated AND showed. What is showed>>>>what is stated.

He has no idea where the bullet is exactly intending to strike as the Wanted shooters could bend at illogical angles. He also has no idea which exact path the bullet is taking to that unknown mark. I'd be a guess.

They could step right into the path, as they don't know which path the bullet is taking.

That doesn't help your argument, as a bending bullet is outside the ability of Gunkata to factor in. The math won't work.

Originally posted by Robtard
He has no idea where the bullet is exactly intending to strike as the Wanted shooters could bend at illogical angles. He also has no idea which exact path the bullet is taking to that unknown mark. I'd be a guess. But he does know the location of his opponent when they shoot, therefore he can judge where and when the bullet will strike.


You know, like in the vid I posted.

Or, you know, what I just said.

Quite the opposite, considering Preston literally did what I am claiming.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
But he does know the location of his opponent when they shoot, therefore he can judge where and when the bullet will strike.


You know, like in the vid I posted.

Or, you know, what I just said.

Quite the opposite, considering Preston literally did what I am claiming.

No, not using Gunkata. He can guess, but that isn't Gunkata.

That vid has nothing to do with curving bullets, which is what Selene would be bringing.

Yes, he could happen to step out of the path, or he could not, which is the point that has been told to you over and over. That isn't the precise awesomeness of Gunkata though.

Preston never factored in curving bullets, as they don't exist in that universe. You're basing your argument on something Gunkata isn't.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, not using Gunkata. He can guess, but that isn't Gunkata. Uh, he kinda "guessed" during the entire hallway shootout. Guess we can chalk that up to another skill he has.



Already covered this. Curving bullets means a longer flight time. Longer flight time= More time for the Gun Kata user to be away from where the bullet will strike.

Or he could......you know.......Predict when and where the bullet will strike and be away from that point.......like he did in the hallway shootout.......with 30 trained killers firing full automatic rifles at him.......



Yeah.......

I am basing my argument on the FACT that Preston is able to, in to staying out of the traditional trajectories of incoming fire, predict when and where the bullet will strike and evade accordingly. It's in the vid. Your continual denial of this does not change that.

Preston didn't guess, he's just beyond uber with Gunkata. He factored in the gunmen, factored in the trajectories and danced his way to a blood-bath.

No, no, no and no. Gunkata "predicting" as you call it relies on bullets (and gunmen) doing what they're supposed to do, fly/shoot straight. Take away that factor, there's no predictions, it's a guess, might work, might not. You're just too stubborn to accept this.

Originally posted by Robtard
Preston didn't guess, he's just beyond uber with Gunkata. He factored in the gunmen, factored in the trajectories and danced his way to a blood-bath.Mhm. And predicted where and when the bullets would strike and evaded accordingly.

You're mistake is taking the definition of Gun Kata and assuming that Preston is limited to it. He's not. It's right there in the vid I posted.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, no, no and no. Gunkata "predicting" as you call it relies on bullets (and gunmen) doing what they're supposed to do, fly/shoot straight. Take away that factor, there's no predictions, it's a guess, might work, might not. You're just too stubborn to accept this.


I understand this and conceded that point.


It's a possibility that an excellent Gun Kata user would dodge into the trajectory of a curved bullet. However, I'd rather lean on the much larger volume that they can dodge into as being the higher likelihood.


So, yes, RJ, Robtard is right on this point: there is a possibility, due to the unlikely nature that they would move in a direction that puts them into the very slightly different path of a bent trajectory. However, that trajectory and dodging into it would require quite the unlikely event because there is very little difference at the back of the head and no difference at the front of the head. He'd have to move in a way that puts his head in the path of the bent bullet, at the back of his head, while moving out of the way into the trajectory of the straight bullet which would be almost impossible for him to do considering Preston cleared all bullets with a comfortable margin.


I can draw a picture for that, Robtard, if you'd like.

Will it be the same as your last picture?

Originally posted by jaden101
Will it be the same as your last picture?

facepalm

Originally posted by dadudemon



So, yes, RJ, Robtard is right on this point: there is a possibility, due to the unlikely nature that they would move in a direction that puts them into the very slightly different path of a bent trajectory.

If the Gun Kata user evades towards or away from their opponent, then yes, true. I already agreed on that.


BUT, if the Gun Kata user is aware that their opponent can curve bullets, why would they evade towards or away from their opponent knowing that doing so would likely get them killed? They would dodge side to side. By dodging side to side, they counter the curving of the bullet. No matter how much the bullet is curved, Point A (where the bullet curver fires the bullet from) and point B (where the bullet curver intends the bullet to strike) remains the same.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I understand this and conceded that point.


I know, it was for RJ who doesn't get it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
If the Gun Kata user evades towards or away from their opponent, then yes, true. I already agreed on that.


BUT, if the Gun Kata user is aware that their opponent can curve bullets, why would they evade towards or away from their opponent knowing that doing so would likely get them killed? They would dodge side to side. By dodging side to side, they counter the curving of the bullet. No matter how much the bullet is curved, Point A (where the bullet curver fires the bullet from) and point B (where the bullet curver intends the bullet to strike) remains the same.

Cos Blade would have no way of knowing which way the bullet(s) is curving, left, right, up, down, it's a guess.

Originally posted by Robtard
Cos Blade would have no way of knowing which way the bullet(s) is curving, left, right, up, down, it's a guess. And the ending point of the bullet remains the same.

They only curved bullets left and right, not up and down.

Originally posted by Robtard
I know, it was for RJ who doesn't get it. Yes, I do.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
If the Gun Kata user evades towards or away from their opponent, then yes, true. I already agreed on that.


BUT, if the Gun Kata user is aware that their opponent can curve bullets, why would they evade towards or away from their opponent knowing that doing so would likely get them killed? They would dodge side to side. By dodging side to side, they counter the curving of the bullet. No matter how much the bullet is curved, Point A (where the bullet curver fires the bullet from) and point B (where the bullet curver intends the bullet to strike) remains the same.


Speeky Eenglish?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And the ending point of the bullet remains the same.

They only curved bullets left and right, not up and down.

And not knowing where it's curving still means Blade could move into its path instead of outside of it. Which is what you're not allowing yourself to grasp.

Originally posted by Robtard
And not knowing where it's curving still means Blade could move into its path instead of outside of it. Which is what you're not allowing yourself to grasp.


If the Gun Kata user evades towards or away from their opponent, then yes, true. I already agreed on that.


BUT, if the Gun Kata user is aware that their opponent can curve bullets, why would they evade towards or away from their opponent knowing that doing so would likely get them killed? They would dodge side to side. By dodging side to side, they counter the curving of the bullet. No matter how much the bullet is curved, Point A (where the bullet curver fires the bullet from) and point B (where the bullet curver intends the bullet to strike) remains the same.

LoL, stubborn bastard.

Or you know, the bullet is curving left from the shooter and Blade steps right. Could hit him, considering his timing is off as he can't factor in the math of when and where a curving bullet will arrive exactly, as it doesn't follow known statistics.

Even if he stepped left in the above scenario, he technically still has a chance of being hit depending on the exact angle of the curve, though it's slimmer.

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, stubborn bastard.

Or you know, the bullet is curving left from the shooter and Blade steps right. Could hit him, considering his timing is off as he can't factor in the math of when and where a curving bullet will arrive exactly, as it doesn't follow known statistics.

Even if he stepped left in the above scenario, he technically still has a chance of being hit depending on the exact angle of the curve, though it's slimmer. The bullet leaves and arrives at the same points as a bullet fired in a straight line. The longer flight time gives the gun kata user more time to evade left or right.

Doesn't matter if the bullet curves or not. As long as the gun kata user goes left or right, he's good.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The bullet leaves and arrives at the same points as a bullet fired in a straight line. The longer flight time gives the gun kata user more time to evade left or right.

Doesn't matter if the bullet curves or not. As long as the gun kata user goes left or right, he's good.

Not knowing the travel time means he could step early or late into the path. Depending again on the angle of curve and travel-time, two things he can't factor in.

Incorrect, depending on the curve, one would increase the chance of walking into the path more-so than the other.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not knowing the travel time means he could step early or late into the path. Depending again on the angle of curve and travel-time, two things he can't factor in.

Incorrect, depending on the curve, one would increase the chance of walking into the path more-so than the other.


Wrong. He can be even further away due to the increased flight time. Further away and rapid firing in return, not single shot curving bullets.


A and B remain the same even if the bullet spells out Selene's name on it's path.

Stubborn bastard. Gunkata is a precise math despite how illogical it is for a man to dance between hundreds and hundreds of rounds; it relies on known statistics, taking those away f**ks up the math.

Originally posted by Robtard
Stubborn bastard. Gunkata is a precise math despite how illogical it is for a man to dance between hundreds and hundreds of rounds; it relies on known statistics, taking those away f**ks up the math. lol @ you bringing logic into an MVF debate.


lulz infinity, dude.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
lol @ you bringing logic into an MVF debate.


lulz infinity, dude.

I said "illogical", dude. That's the opposite of "logic."

Originally posted by Robtard
I said "illogical", dude. That's the opposite of "logic." You said "math."

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/rob.jpg


haermm

Yeah, math is dumb.

Awwww, you took the time to make a pic about me. "rob.jpg"

Concession and humor accepted.

No concession. You keep tap dancing around the fact that Preston did all that gun kata was SAID to do and showed even more by doing what I said.

There's really no way around it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No concession. You keep tap dancing around the fact that Preston did all that gun kata was SAID to do and showed even more by doing what I said.

There's really no way around it.

What? <--- serious question

Originally posted by Robtard
What? <--- serious question I spoke perfect english. Speeky Eengleesh?

If you say so, cool.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No concession. You keep tap dancing around the fact that Preston did all that gun kata was SAID to do and showed even more by doing what I said.

There's really no way around it.

What he does is still only based on his knowledge of GK though....Which doesn't include knowledge of curved bullets so he can't counter them...He can use what knowledge and skills he does have and he will no doubt avoid some of the shots because of it but that's no longer entirely through his mastery of GK and would rely more considerably on luck rather than statistics.

You and DDM can argue til you're blue in the face that the difference in trajectories is minimal but the film proves you wrong for the 3 scenes I've already stated...Mr X's shot on the roof that turns a full 90 degrees at the last split second to hit his target...Wesley's train roof assassination and Fox's full 360 curve in a relatively small room shows that the bullet can come from any angle including behind the opponent.

You can also ignore and mock our repetition of traditional trajectories but that's exactly what GK is based on and it's stated explicitly on screen. There's no getting around it...He can't avoid for certain what he can't predict....Simple as that.

You're just wrong...I even get the impression that you know you're wrong but you've dug yourself in to that much of a hole that you can't stop now.

I do say so.

Originally posted by jaden101
You and DDM can argue til you're blue in the face that the difference in trajectories is minimal but the film proves you wrong for the 3 scenes I've already stated...Mr X's shot on the roof that turns a full 90 degrees at the last split second to hit his target...

That was Mr. X, not Wesley.

Additionally, that doesn't change the fact that a Gun Kata user would be dodging the "straight line" trajectory and would have avoided that curved trajectory, regardless of where it started to curve. There's a very small change they would would dodge in such a way that it would dodge the straight line trajectory but dodge into the curved trajectory and the margin for that is so very close that it's almost impossible to pull off something like that while dodging the straight line trajectory.




Originally posted by jaden101
Fox's full 360 curve in a relatively small room shows that the bullet can come from any angle including behind the opponent.

Addressed that already: she'll kill herself making a 360 degree shot.

Additionally, that was Fox, not Wesley.

Originally posted by jaden101
You can also ignore and mock our repetition of traditional trajectories but that's exactly what GK is based on and it's stated explicitly on screen. There's no getting around it...He can't avoid for certain what he can't predict....Simple as that.

You're just wrong...I even get the impression that you know you're wrong but you've dug yourself in to that much of a hole that you can't stop now.

And can continue to ignore that you're points have been thoroughly beaten until your blue in the face: doesn't mean that repeating yourself changes that you're still wrong.

DDM, stop being so ****ing retarded and give up. Your argument makes no damn sense and your just making yourself look like a damn fool.

Sup Pot?

Should I have this closed?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Should I have this closed?

Ferrous Cranus = you in here

Originally posted by Robtard
Ferrous Cranus = you in here http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/72737591v5_240x240_Front.jpg

Utterly true, dude. Even DDM who has the ability to make you see the light couldn't sway you in here.

You = http://img228.imageshack.us/i/ferrouscranus.jpg

Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration Philosopher will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.