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Byakuya Kuchiki

Vs

Kenpachi Zaracki

Fight to ko, incapacitation, or kill
Both are willing to fight to full capabilities
Zaracki is serious about the match

For some reason I picture Kenny just wading through Byakuya's senbonsakura and slicing him in fast.

Speed goes to Byakuya, and he's got the ranged advantage, but Kenny's more durable and stronger.

Realistically, probably Byakuya.

Agreed

If it was Kenny from the movies and fillers though........

I'd have to give it to Kenpachi. At the end of the day an all-out kenpachi is just too ridiculous. I'd reference their fight during the filler season, but neither went beyond messing around if I remember correctly. But based on the fact that Kenpachi could one shot the fourth espada I don't think Byakuya could take him. Kenpachi is definitely taking some damage, but like his fight with Tousen once he gets ahold of him it's game blouses.

That one dude...the little brother of the hot chick with the pyrotechnics...said that Byakuya (We're on a first name basis, Kuchiki-sama and I) had more reiatesu than Kenpachi. This was in the manga. It was when they were on the bridge rescuing Rukia.


Also, Renji's sword (towards the very end when he was running out of reiatesu) couldn't cut Byakuya in their fight when they fought near the pillars in the same arc. This should prove how much reiryoku that he has.


That said, Sea Shell head has better swordsmanship and longer ranged attacks. Kenpachi goes down despite the fact that Kenpachi is my favorite character from Bleach.

When was Byakuya ever said to have more reiatesu than Kenpachi?

Originally posted by dadudemon
That one dude...the little brother of the hot chick with the pyrotechnics...said that Byakuya (We're on a first name basis, Kuchiki-sama and I) had more reiatesu than Kenpachi. This was in the manga. It was when they were on the bridge rescuing Rukia.


What, Ganju Shiba?

He said Byakuya's is "at least as great," as Zaraki's, yea.


He's also only met eyepatched Zaraki. He has never encountered Kenpachi's true reiatsu.

Originally posted by Q99
He's also only met eyepatched Zaraki. He has never encountered Kenpachi's true reiatsu.

That's true: that's what Nemebro said.

And, no, he said Byakuya's was greater, not the same.


And, Byakuya wasn't "flexing" his reiryoku all the way, either. This is the argument I posed to Nemebro. Byakuya also had much better control over his reiyoku than Kenpachi so a case could be made that Byakuya is much stronger than Kenpachi in the reiatsu department and it not be completely baseless.

And to properly represent, I believe Nemebro countered the above with something like, "Ganju is a newb and is not an expert." And, "Ganju was much further away from Kenpachi so he couldn't have felt it as well." And, "Ganju was collapsing under Kenpachi's pressure and he didn't next to Byakuya's."

Originally posted by dadudemon

And, no, he said Byakuya's was greater, not the same.

In the translation I have, "at least as great," is a quote.



I'm not talking about 'flexing' all the way, neither were going all-out around Ganju. I'm talking about Kenpachi has an eyepatch that specifically eats a large amount of his reiatsu that produces a noticeable power boost when removed. Byakuya doesn't have something similar.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm not talking about 'flexing' all the way, neither were going all-out around Ganju. I'm talking about Kenpachi has an eyepatch that specifically eats a large amount of his reiatsu that produces a noticeable power boost when removed. Byakuya doesn't have something similar.

In all honesty, I fail to see how that actually addresses anything I've stated.

Do you people really want to engage in A>B>C he said she said logic?

Because if we're gonna do that, well, Ichigo defeated Kenny who was going all out by being angry and stuff. It took Bankai plus hollow form to beat Byakuya.

So. Seems pretty obvious what's what, using that logic.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Do you people really want to engage in A>B>C he said she said logic?

Because if we're gonna do that, well, Ichigo defeated Kenny who was going all out by being angry and stuff. It took Bankai plus hollow form to beat Byakuya.

So. Seems pretty obvious what's what, using that logic.

Also points I made to Nemebro when we had our argument.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Do you people really want to engage in A>B>C he said she said logic?

Because if we're gonna do that, well, Ichigo defeated Kenny who was going all out by being angry and stuff. It took Bankai plus hollow form to beat Byakuya.

So. Seems pretty obvious what's what, using that logic.
This logic would make a lot more sense if the captains didn't seem like their power had increased drastically between when they first met Ichigo and when they fought the espada.

Originally posted by McNasty996
Byakuya Kuchiki

Vs

Kenpachi Zaracki

Fight to ko, incapacitation, or kill
Both are willing to fight to full capabilities
Zaracki is serious about the match


Byakuya's greater versatility and skill advantage will trump Zaraki's raw power and durability, IMO.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also points I made to Nemebro when we had our argument. Stop name-dropping me, insect.

Kenpachi had enough raw physical power to cut through released Nnoitra's Hierro, and just demonstrates superior physical attributes to Byakuya in general.

Now it is true that Ganju said that Byakuya's reitsu was as strong, or even stronger than Kenpachi's, as shown here:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-570-9/bleach/chapter-116.html

But fact of the matter is, Kenpachi was wearing his eyepatch when Ganju saw him. As we know, without it, Kenpachi is much more powerful.

Now, you may try to use the "Byakuya was not flexing it" argument, but flexing Reitsu does not increase it. All it does is direct your Reitsu onto your foe, harming them. It does not make it larger. So it is not an argument.

Granted, Byakuya is faster, more versatile, and obviously a better ranged combatant than Kenpachi, so that could give him the win. But it will not be due to Byakuya having greater Reitsu..

Originally posted by dadudemon
In all honesty, I fail to see how that actually addresses anything I've stated.

I don't see how it doesn't.

Kenpachi had a literal artifact noticeably reducing his total spirit pressure when Ganju met him. Byakuya did not.

Ganju's statement is thus made with incomplete information, based on the two in two different conditions.

Byakuya.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Stop name-dropping me, insect.

Not only is my reply "no", you definitely can go om nom my giblets. Those arguments lasted days and they are forever burned in my memory.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenpachi had enough raw physical power to cut through released Nnoitra's Hierro, and just demonstrates superior physical attributes to Byakuya in general.

And, Apparantly, Byakuya defeated the 0 Espada with Kenpachi so obviously, there's a strength comparison to be had.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Now it is true that Ganju said that Byakuya's reitsu was as strong, or even stronger than Kenpachi's, as shown here:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-570-9/bleach/chapter-116.html

I knew I wasn't lying.

Originally posted by NemeBro
But fact of the matter is, Kenpachi was wearing his eyepatch when Ganju saw him. As we know, without it, Kenpachi is much more powerful.

Deja vu. We've had this conversation before. Byakuya wasn't flexing his rieryoku nearly as much as he could, at the moment...just the same as Kenpachi wasn't because he still had his eye patch on. If you want maximum reiatsu flexing...that would be full power bankai on top of execution hill. Since Kenpachi comes no where close to releasing that much reiatsu any anything he's done, he cannot have greater reiatsu. At least, not until he can use his bankai.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Now, you may try to use the "Byakuya was not flexing it" argument, but flexing Reitsu does not increase it. All it does is direct your Reitsu onto your foe, harming them. It does not make it larger. So it is not an argument.

Incorrect. "Flexing" it is actually using it to power up very similar to DBZ characters. When Yamamoto finally flexed his, it caused a Lieutenant to collapse, and he wasn't directing it at any particular person. The same with Ichigo when he was approaching Byakuya and Rukia on the bridge (cept he can't help it because he has so much of it).

You can actually increase or decrease your reiatsu by strengthening how much rieryoku you are flexing.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Granted, Byakuya is faster, more versatile, and obviously a better ranged combatant than Kenpachi, so that could give him the win. But it will not be due to Byakuya having greater Reitsu..

Byakuya would be in the range of Kenpachi, in the rieryoku power stores, at a minimum.


Official databook puts him at 90 in offense and Kenpachi at 100, so it's not as though I do not have a canon source for my stance.


Originally posted by Q99
I don't see how it doesn't.

Kenpachi had a literal artifact noticeably reducing his total spirit pressure when Ganju met him. Byakuya did not..

The reason I said I don't see how that addressed anything I stated is because my rebuttal to your exacts words were in the very text that you quoted.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Deja vu. We've had this conversation before. Byakuya wasn't flexing his rieryoku nearly as much as he could, at the moment...just the same as Kenpachi wasn't because he still had his eye patch on. If you want maximum reiatsu flexing...that would be full power bankai on top of execution hill. Since Kenpachi comes no where close to releasing that much reiatsu any anything he's done, he cannot have greater reiatsu. At least, not until he can use his bankai.

yzWc11I411k
8:12

Originally posted by Samurai100
yzWc11I411k
8:12

Sorry, bro, the non-Canon anime doesn't count. In addition, the non-canon anime and filler episodes definitely do not count.


Go back and read the fight between Ichigo and Byakuya for a canon fight.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Not only is my reply "no", you definitely can go om nom my giblets. Those arguments lasted days and they are forever burned in my memory.

And, Apparantly, Byakuya defeated the 0 Espada with Kenpachi so obviously, there's a strength comparison to be had.

I knew I wasn't lying.

Deja vu. We've had this conversation before. Byakuya wasn't flexing his rieryoku nearly as much as he could, at the moment...just the same as Kenpachi wasn't because he still had his eye patch on. If you want maximum reiatsu flexing...that would be full power bankai on top of execution hill. Since Kenpachi comes no where close to releasing that much reiatsu any anything he's done, he cannot have greater reiatsu. At least, not until he can use his bankai.

Incorrect. "Flexing" it is actually using it to power up very similar to DBZ characters. When Yamamoto finally flexed his, it caused a Lieutenant to collapse, and he wasn't directing it at any particular person. The same with Ichigo when he was approaching Byakuya and Rukia on the bridge (cept he can't help it because he has so much of it).

You can actually increase or decrease your reiatsu by strengthening how much rieryoku you are flexing.

Byakuya would be in the range of Kenpachi, in the rieryoku power stores, at a minimum.

Official databook puts him at 90 in offense and Kenpachi at 100, so it's not as though I do not have a canon source for my stance. 1. I'm sorry.

2. I am not saying Byakuya is definitely weaker than Kenpachi. Overall, they are similar in power, IMO. Also, yes, while they fought together, Kenpachi attacking Yammy with his eyepatch on did the same amount of damage as Byakuya did using his Bankai, as seen here:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-39731-19/bleach/chapter-382.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-40673-1/bleach/chapter-383.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-40673-2/bleach/chapter-383.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-40673-3/bleach/chapter-383.html

So Byakuya with his Bankai dished out as much damage as Kenpachi with his eyepatch did.

2. More than anything Kenpachi has done? You mean this:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-620-19/bleach/chapter-166.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-621-2/bleach/chapter-167.html

Right?

Let us compare it to this:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-567-13/bleach/chapter-113.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-567-14/bleach/chapter-113.html

So, Ichigo and Byakuya put on a little light-show in their clash, but Kenpachi and Ichigo's level dozens of large buildings surrounding them, and Byakuya's is more impressive? Nah man, nah.

Oh and do note that the captains have clearly gotten stronger, so said feats are obsolete at the moment.

Oh, and this reminds me, you have at times used Byakuya being uninjured by Renji's Bankai (Or was it Shikai?) to prove that Byakuya has as much ore more Reitsu than Kenpachi. Kenpachi was able to take a punch from Yammy, and was barely hurt, and he was able to stop Nnoitra's blade with his palm, as well as a Cero from him. That's above anything Byakuya has to his name in terms of durability.

3. Okay. Can you prove that though? I mean, I get you are arguing "Their power increases," but I did not see anything proving that statement. Yamamoto directed his power towards them, he did not simply release it.

4. I see you saying that. I do not really see it being proven. Especially when an attack from Byakuya with Bankai and eyepatch Kenpachi has much the same effect, ****ing up Yammy's face. If we were to use Databooks, Toshiro would be stronger than Ukitake. And despite Blax's inevitable "Well he is" comment, I believe we both know that is not the case. If we WERE to use databooks though, Byakuya would have a 70 in physical strength, compared to Kenpachi's 100. Offensive power is not merely in terms of melee potential.

If Byakuya wins this fight, it will not be through slugging it out with Kenpachi.

Originally posted by NemeBro
know that is not the case. If we WERE to use databooks though, Byakuya would have a 70 in physical strength, compared to Kenpachi's 100. Offensive power is not merely in terms of melee potential.

Yeah the databooks are definitely outdated now, they definitely shouldn't be involved in this discussion at all.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. I'm sorry.

Don't be. Those were good arguments.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. I am not saying Byakuya is definitely weaker than Kenpachi. Overall, they are similar in power, IMO. Also, yes, while they fought together, Kenpachi attacking Yammy with his eyepatch on did the same amount of damage as Byakuya did using his Bankai, as seen here

That's exactly what my point was: they are close in in spiritual power but the nod goes to Sea Shell head due to his greater versatility.


Originally posted by NemeBro
http://www.mangareader.net/94-39731-19/bleach/chapter-382.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-40673-1/bleach/chapter-383.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-40673-2/bleach/chapter-383.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-40673-3/bleach/chapter-383.html(

So Byakuya with his Bankai dished out as much damage as Kenpachi with his eyepatch did.

All I see is a massive load of PIS as he could have done a gay petal coffin on his head and ended the fight in 5 seconds.

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. More than anything Kenpachi has done? You mean this:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-620-19/bleach/chapter-166.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-621-2/bleach/chapter-167.html

Right?

Let us compare it to this:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-567-13/bleach/chapter-113.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-567-14/bleach/chapter-113.html

So, Ichigo and Byakuya put on a little light-show in their clash, but Kenpachi and Ichigo's level dozens of large buildings surrounding them, and Byakuya's is more impressive? Nah man, nah.


What I see is much greater, pure, dense, significantly greater volume, spiritual power in the first part, and I see a shock wave in the second part. Much bigger difference in the first part. The anime shows the same.

I sense bias on your part.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh and do note that the captains have clearly gotten stronger, so said feats are obsolete at the moment.

They have? I hold that they haven't. We've had this discussions before. What it REALLY amounts to are some moments of PIS (which makes them weaker and stronger, depending on the PIS moment), not a power increase.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh, and this reminds me, you have at times used Byakuya being uninjured by Renji's Bankai (Or was it Shikai?) to prove that Byakuya has as much ore more Reitsu than Kenpachi. Kenpachi was able to take a punch from Yammy, and was barely hurt, and he was able to stop Nnoitra's blade with his palm, as well as a Cero from him. That's above anything Byakuya has to his name in terms of durability.

No, I use it to make a comparison between Ichigo not being able to injure Kenpachi until he focused to compare to Renji not being able to hurt Byakuya at the very end of their fight because Renji also lost his resolve/will.

And, I agree on the second parts: Kenpachi just walks into shit. That does not mean, however, that one is superior to the other in terms of durability. We did not see Byakuya get kicked/punched by Yammy, so we do not know how he would react. We do know that they both persevere with injuries as though nothing happened: the difference? Byakuya does not comment on his injuries nor care, Kenpachi does. That doesn't make Kenpachi weak, though: that makes him more reasonable. Kuchiki was willing to throw his life away against Ichigo without any concern for anything but his prideful rules.


Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Okay. Can you prove that though? I mean, I get you are arguing "Their power increases," but I did not see anything proving that statement. Yamamoto directed his power towards them, he did not simply release it.

You want me to prove it after I already did?

That was just one example of almost every time soul pressure is exerted.

Also, Ichigo focused his soul energy in the most direct way possible to increase his attacking power when he fought Kenpachi.

So not only is a passive leak, a direct exertion, or a flexing of rieryoku, it can be physically directed.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. I see you saying that. I do not really see it being proven.

I don't need to prove it to anyone that has read or watched Bleach and even knows what reiatsu is. It's like you telling me to prove that Superman's heat ray vision is hot.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Especially when an attack from Byakuya with Bankai and eyepatch Kenpachi has much the same effect, ****ing up Yammy's face. If we were to use Databooks, Toshiro would be stronger than Ukitake. And despite Blax's inevitable "Well he is" comment, I believe we both know that is not the case. If we WERE to use databooks though, Byakuya would have a 70 in physical strength, compared to Kenpachi's 100. Offensive power is not merely in terms of melee potential.

I'm not sure why you brought any of those points up. You said lots of stuff that I basically said already or implied.

Originally posted by NemeBro
If Byakuya wins this fight, it will not be through slugging it out with Kenpachi.

If it came to blows...no pun intended...Kuchiki would still win because he's faster.

I think, the databook's not exactly wrong, but it pretty much leave out total reiatsu entirely, which is one of the primary determiners of power in bleach combat.

Byakuya wins.

Kenpachi

Care to elaborate?

Originally posted by Samurai100
Care to elaborate?

Byakuya's speed if far greater than that of Kempachi's; Kempachi has no knowledge of Kido, and Kenny has the brian powah of a kitten.

I really can't picture Kempachi defeating Byakuya...

Seriously though, Kempachi's greatest ability is what...Nuke Slash?

Was asking Stoic, I would definetely agree that Byakuya wins.

I cannot help but think that I should respond to dadudemon.

I probably won't though.

Please do, I literally have nothing else to entertain myself with.

Masturbate?

Stick something up your poopshoot.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Masturbate?

I have no desire to do that. Which is rather strange for me I assure you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Stick something up your poopshoot.

Not the kind to explore new things.

^ Shoot something down your poopshoot?

That is new DP and I believe I just got done saying that I don't try new things! Gosh darn it, freaking pay attention you douche!

As for the thread....Dunno.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I cannot help but think that I should respond to dadudemon.

I probably won't though.

Don't do it: you'll end up getting pwned even harder. It's not worth it, man.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Don't do it: you'll end up getting pwned even harder. It's not worth it, man. Your trolling almost manages to be worse than your debating. mmm

Originally posted by NemeBro
Your trolling almost manages to be worse than your debating. mmm


T-that's my line.

You're both fairly sorry trolls.

I suppose you can think of yourself as passable debaters.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You're both fairly sorry trolls.

Yeah, I do suck at trolling, which is why I do not do it very often and when I do, it's always in jest, and not actually trolling. I usually only troll RogueJedi, but he's a real life friend and knows me too well to think I'm legitimately trolling him.

But, I do supposed telling people that you're laughing at loud, really hard, at how stupid their post was, is trolling.


Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I suppose you can think of yourself as passable debaters.

If p, then q, bitches.

I don't know what you all are talking about.

I'm an AMAZING troll.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
That is new DP and I believe I just got done saying that I don't try new things! Gosh darn it, freaking pay attention you douche!

As for the thread....Dunno.

If you don't try new things at all, how did you start doing any things in the first place? mmm

Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't know what you all are talking about.

I'm an AMAZING troll.

quan's probably better than you at that!

Heck even the Kan guy that's in the D.S thread is superior.

this is a tough call, but id agree with nemebro. possibly byakuya, but if he did win the fight its not going to be up and close.... he'd get raped that way. seeing as kenpachi can tank tousens metal blade attack (forgot name) when not even in his strongest state, and act as if nothing happened, he has a lot of raw power, still fast, but not nearly as fast as byakuya. or versatile.

Going with byakuya, they are fairly even imo but byakuya is smarter and has a range advantage.

Kenpachi

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Kenpachi

Welcome back. Long time no see.

Hey howdy hey there donut.....mmm donuts..... I mean(!) Dadudemon! =)

Sorry. Your avatar and Signature remain disturbingly distracting....

Ooooooooooooh

Another Angel around here. This one is also a Kingdom Hearts fan apparently. :O

She was here before you were though.

I am just saying.

I also think Kenny would probably win.

I knows. ^^

I think Byakuya personally. Mostly because he can do more than cut things.

Alright, let's school you boys =3

I jest.

But the reason I say Kenpachi is simply because I feel as though you are not really taking Byakuya's character in the equation.

Yes it's certainly true that he could possess a range advantage, he has the speed necessary for it to be viable. But this is Kuchiki Byakuya! Like he would resort to that. His pride would not allow it.

He is certainly effective at using Kido in battle, and I have no doubt it would have it's uses against Kenpachi but I don't see it being so much as to give him a victory.

He's certainly got more and even better speed feats than Kenpachi. But then I don't see any evidence it would be enough to overwhelm Kenpachi.

If we are to assume Kenpachi is serious about the battle (which is hard for me to picture to be honest. He's wanted to fight Byakuya for as long as we've seen him) then sorry, but I don't see how Byakuya would stand against him swinging with two hands. Even with his Bankai. Ichigo's shikai has shown us the petals can be made useless if they are met with an attack with the necessary force. Two hands is at least as powerful as Ichigo Shikai, as Byakuya's Bankai is to his own shikai.


While it's my opinion based on the scans shown earlier it is insinuated Byakuya's reiryoku is more powerful than Kenpachi's, frankly I think it's wrong. Kenpachi's reiryoku is so strong it manifests visually. Byakuya can only do this with special techniques. In short I put it down to Ganju's poor sense and/or experience of captain level reiatsu.


Result

1) If you're talking about what they can do, Byakuya would win
2) If you're talking about what they would do, Almost impossible to determine (IMO would be dependent on Kenpachi using two hands before it's too late and/or Byakuya realizing the effect that would have)
3) If you're talking about the rules for this thread, Kenpachi takes it.


P.S I actually like Byakuya more. But this thread's rules seem to make it obvious to me than Kenpachi would win.

But of course, this is all just my take on this...

Hehe nice.

Well, as much as I'd like to debate with you, my computer is being stupid and I can't seem to get on any mangasites. ^^;

If this were Naruto, which I can remember like the back of my hand, it wouldn't be too big a deal. But I've only recently gotten into Bleach and so I can't really recall a lot of Byakuya's feats. Kenpachi's I remember but those consist of cutting and getting cut so....

Hopefully I can return with the ability to argue! :O

I can't see byakuya taking a kendo slash from zaraki and still putting up a fight for him

Well, he couldn't. But, I don't see why Byakuya would take a hit from his Kendo attack. The counter strategy is very obvious. Attack from behind the second he uses the attack.

Or cut off one hand of his. That would also stop the kendo strategy.

Byakuya would annihilate Kenpachi, honestly. Kenny wouldn't even know he was dying, his head would just come off.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well, he couldn't. But, I don't see why Byakuya would take a hit from his Kendo attack. The counter strategy is very obvious. Attack from behind the second he uses the attack.

Or cut off one hand of his. That would also stop the kendo strategy. cutting kenny's hand could be a pretty hard task i guess

Eh, not really. This attack might not be as strong as Kenny's Kendo, but it should certainly suffice for cutting of his arm. Or head for that matter. It's pretty strong.

Kenpachi caught a Cero in his hand and threw it.

His hand is obviously invulnerable.

Kenpachi is also obviously faster than Byakuya, Kenpachi>Tousen>Grimmjow>Bankai Ichigo>Byakuya.

Obviously.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenpachi is also obviously faster than Byakuya, Kenpachi>Tousen>Grimmjow>Bankai Ichigo>Byakuya.

This is why I hate Kubo sometimes.


He can't even do flash steps, ffs...yet, your logic is not wrong.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is why I hate Kubo sometimes.

He can't even do flash steps, ffs...yet, your logic is not wrong.
Actually, when Tosen cut off Grimmjow's arm he had undergone Aizen's process of hollowfication. Completely justifying his rampant increase in power.

You're further ignoring the fact that the captains were out of shape during the Rukia retrieval arc, and after that they underwent tough training.

I'd put Bykuya over Kenpachi just because Byakuya knows Kenpachi's fighting style and has a wide arrange of powers to exploit his flaws and weaknesses.

Originally posted by Astner
Actually, when Tosen cut off Grimmjow's arm he had undergone Aizen's process of hollowfication. Completely justifying his rampant increase in power.

There's actually no justification for that, anywhere.

Additionally, Tosen did not appear to be any stronger in his human form when he fought a Lieutenant and captain in the fake Kakura town arc.

Originally posted by Astner
You're further ignoring the fact that the captains were out of shape during the Rukia retrieval arc, and after that they underwent tough training.

This is speculation on the fans part. It is not a canon fact. Meaning, we cannot accept that as being fact.

Originally posted by Astner
I'd put Bykuya over Kenpachi just because Byakuya knows Kenpachi's fighting style and has a wide arrange of powers to exploit his flaws and weaknesses.


That and Sea Shell head can become invulnerable, completely, but shelling it up, Gaara style.

I don't think anything suggests they became stronger in their human forms after hollowfication, does it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think anything suggests they became stronger in their human forms after hollowfication, does it?

Correct.

That was my point with the lieutenant thingie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think anything suggests they became stronger in their human forms after hollowfication, does it?

Well, Ichigo's hollow mask kept saving him from fatal blows. So there might actually be a bleed of power from the Hollow side. We know that the reverse is true, the hollow can decrease/affect your power in normal form.

Of course, Tousen was a unique case. Not only did he undergo hollowfication and become a Vizard, he could actually access a Ressurecion form, which suggests that he somehow became more of a hollow than a Shinigami.

I dunno. I don't think he really increased in his base form. I just think he spent too much time dicking around, which is how Kenpachi ultimately won. Not like Kenny wasn't getting damaged, it's just that he is around the 3rd most durable character in the series. So I don't see much of a strength boost in his base form. Just taking things more seriously.

Tousen was trying to kill Kenpachi.

Kenny was just able to avoid the brunt of the blows by feeling it brush up against his haori.

God, keep up dick.

Originally posted by NemeBro
God, keep up dick.


Lulz. I bet you've said that before.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Tousen was trying to kill Kenpachi.

Kenny was just able to avoid the brunt of the blows by feeling it brush up against his haori.

God, keep up dick.

Tousen dicked around. Only until later when Kenny had gotten a handle on it did he get serious, and even then he never aimed for the head. I guess Kubo never questioned why Tousen would explain his bankai to a guy that can't hear him.

Pay attention douceh.

If by "later" you mean "right away" then yes.

I agree; Kenny winning that fight is bullshit. Even though Kenpachi is such a superior character to Tousen it's laughable, Tousen had him dead to rights. He should have just cut his head off and been done with it.

I just think Tosen is cooler. :O

Rukia is also your favorite character. Obviously, your taste is suspect.

Who's your favorite then? I bet I can tear 'em apart. :3

So much butthurt, it makes me powerful.

Haha.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I dunno. I don't think he really increased in his base form. I just think he spent too much time dicking around, which is how Kenpachi ultimately won. Not like Kenny wasn't getting damaged, it's just that he is around the 3rd most durable character in the series. So I don't see much of a strength boost in his base form. Just taking things more seriously.

He always took things seriously, except when using Bankai or Ressurecion, though at least the Ressurecion part can be explained without resorting to CIS/PIS.

And again, Hollow powers can bleed into base form.

I'm not following the whole bleeding out thing. I know Ichigo's Mask would appear at convinient times but I don't recall where he was particularly more powerful for it.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I'm not following the whole bleeding out thing. I know Ichigo's Mask would appear at convinient times but I don't recall where he was particularly more powerful for it.

So the mask appearing at convenient times, and Hollow Ichigo weakening Bankai Ichigo, do not qualify as 'hollow is affecting human form'?

EDIT: Meh, then there's also this I guess:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v13/c113/12.html

It goes without saying that being a Visord will affect your human form. It does not however hint that the base form, the form without the mask, is any stronger. Unless I'm missing something.

We've already seen that the hollow can affect your level of power in human form. Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuated from vastly weaker than Ulquiorra's, to stronger than his.
And weirdly enough, once Ichigo mastered that Tensa Zangetsu/Hollow Ichigo mix, his power increased.

Was that because of his Hollow? I thought Ichigo was just showing off his hidden potential.

His base form? :O

You mean the fluctuation? Yeah, it was because the Hollow was interfering.
Human form went from being << Gin to >> Butterfree Aizen. Pretty major power boost.

Wasn't that his FGT thing going on? I doubt Tousen was really using that kind of power.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Wasn't that his FGT thing going on? I doubt Tousen was really using that kind of power.

FGT was a tech he did not use until the end. FGT did not really affect his base form.

Something was affecting his base. Not just Hollow Ichigo. :O

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
We've already seen that the hollow can affect your level of power in human form. Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuated from vastly weaker than Ulquiorra's, to stronger than his.
And weirdly enough, once Ichigo mastered that Tensa Zangetsu/Hollow Ichigo mix, his power increased.


That was because he was struggling not to let Hollow Ichigo out. You can see his eyes beginning to turn black I believe. It was fluctuating between Ichigos reiatsu to Hollow Ichigos reiatsu because Hollow Ichigo was about to gain control and tear shit up. That doesn't qualify as human form to me.



Considering the appearance of the mask when Ichigo did that again I would not qualify that as human form. Ichigo was actively using the hollows power as well as his own at that point.

Unless Tousen had a Hollow mask stuffed up his ass I'm not seeing the connection.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless Tousen had a Hollow mask stuffed up his ass I'm not seeing the connection.

Well, Aizen probably did leave a lot of room.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well, Aizen probably did leave a lot of room. Dawg that be some ghey ass shit.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Something was affecting his base. Not just Hollow Ichigo. :O

It wasn't FGT. It wasn't Hollow Ichigo by himself either, but he did play a part. T.Zangetsu + H2 Ichigo were affecting his human form and made it more powerful than Aizen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was because he was struggling not to let Hollow Ichigo out. You can see his eyes beginning to turn black I believe. It was fluctuating between Ichigos reiatsu to Hollow Ichigos reiatsu because Hollow Ichigo was about to gain control and tear shit up. That doesn't qualify as human form to me.



Considering the appearance of the mask when Ichigo did that again I would not qualify that as human form. Ichigo was actively using the hollows power as well as his own at that point.

Unless Tousen had a Hollow mask stuffed up his ass I'm not seeing the connection.

They partly turn to black, but revert pretty much instantly after that.
Your proof that Ichigo's Reiatsu was switching between his and Hollow Ichigo's? Because as far as I recall, Ulquiorra made no mention of there being a Reiatsu resembling that of a Hollow's, and I'd wager he has much better sensory capabilities than Byakuya. It was Ichigo's reiatsu that was increasing beyond Ulquiorra's, then decreasing, and vice versa.
Qualifies as human form for me considering there was no transformation whatsoever.

Pray tell, how was Ichigo 'actively using hollow's power' against Kenpachi when there was no hint of a transformation, and he could not, at will, use said power until the Arrancar arc?

So we disregard the sudden appearances of Ichigo's Hollow Mask in his human form just because you don't think it qualifies as a hollow affecting the human form? Good to know.

I love how my troll comment can start a debate.

I'm so cool.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It wasn't FGT. It wasn't Hollow Ichigo by himself either, but he did play a part. T.Zangetsu + H2 Ichigo were affecting his human form and made it more powerful than Aizen.

But when Ichigo defeated H Ichiggo, he merely got the ability to go Visord. Are you suggesting that Tosen also defeated his Hollow in a similar manner that Ichigo beat Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo fused? Because he would have been nigh unstoppable for a bit of time.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I love how my troll comment can start a debate.

I'm so cool.

What's ironic is that it doesn't really matter because Kenpachi didn't even beat Tosen do to superior speed. So it's really all moot. ^^

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
But when Ichigo defeated H Ichiggo, he merely got the ability to go Visord. Are you suggesting that Tosen also defeated his Hollow in a similar manner that Ichigo beat Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo fused? Because he would have been nigh unstoppable for a bit of time.

He could have, though I have no proof.
Ichigo however, beat Tensa Zangetsu merged with H2 Hollow Ichigo using Bankai (the same one that at arguably less than half of his power, pwned an Ulquiorra at his strongest), so yeah, it's no wonder that Ichigo was so overpowered.

If he had, he could walk through Soul Society.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenpachi caught a Cero in his hand and threw it.

His hand is obviously invulnerable.

Kenpachi is also obviously faster than Byakuya, Kenpachi>Tousen>Grimmjow>Bankai Ichigo>Byakuya.

Obviously.

Noitra cut kenpachi, so byakuya can do it. So if noitra can cut him, byakuya could do it, and byakuya is faster than noitra, much faster.


and if i recall correctly shikai ichigo beat kenpachi.

So bankai ichigo>kenpachi


I hope this post was the one you were referring to when you said you were trolling.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If he had, he could walk through Soul Society.

If he had, he would not have a fraction of the power that Ichigo did.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
They partly turn to black, but revert pretty much instantly after that.
Your proof that Ichigo's Reiatsu was switching between his and Hollow Ichigo's? Because as far as I recall, Ulquiorra made no mention of there being a Reiatsu resembling that of a Hollow's, and I'd wager he has much better sensory capabilities than Byakuya. It was Ichigo's reiatsu that was increasing beyond Ulquiorra's, then decreasing, and vice versa.
Qualifies as human form for me considering there was no transformation whatsoever.

Pray tell, how was Ichigo 'actively using hollow's power' against Kenpachi when there was no hint of a transformation, and he could not, at will, use said power until the Arrancar arc?

So we disregard the sudden appearances of Ichigo's Hollow Mask in his human form just because you don't think it qualifies as a hollow affecting the human form? Good to know.

During the entire sequence when Ichigo is getting beaten up he's struggling to surpress the Hollow, to the point that he can't even defend himself or Orihime. What, do you think that its a coincidence that Ulq mentions that Ichigo's reiatsu is surpassing his own only when the Hollow is trying to break out but before then thought or him as no threat at all? Given that we know that the Hollow is far stronger to Ichigo? You can see specifically that Ulq mentions in that first link that the fluctuations increased when the Hollow tried to brake out. What else would cause Ichigo's spower to spike that way, given that we know the Hollow powers massively boost his own? And we know Hollow Ichigo is stronger than Ulq, and Ulq mentions that at his highest Ichigo's spiritual pressure is above his own. He was only not transforming because he was actively fighting against it. You can see his eyes turning black, a specific sign that hes starting to transform into Hollow mode.

Seriously, what do you thinks happening in that scene? Ichigos pulling raw power out of his ass? Ichigo's someone accessing the hollows power and combining it with his own, while actively fighting against doing that? I'm actually asking you.

Er, your own link? http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v13/c113/12.html

His reiatsu forms a hollow mask and then afterwards we see that at the time Ichigo had formed a hollow mask. Its just that it wasn't on his face. You could argue that Ichigo was only using Zangetsus power in that fight but we're later informed that the Hllow is a part of Zangetsu so it makes complete sense that Ichigo was accessing the Hollows power in that fight. Plus its pretty obvious that Ichigo was using the Hollows power if only because he beat Kenpachi while in Shikai, something he could never do using his own power.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If he had, he would not have a fraction of the power that Ichigo did.

Why not? Because his Hollow is weaker? Yeah, perhaps, but he'd still be leagues above everyone else. And his zanpakuto is prbably stronger than Zangetsu.

Originally posted by cool_ghost
Noitra cut kenpachi, so byakuya can do it. Byakuya is clearly weaker than Nnoitra.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Byakuya is clearly weaker than Nnoitra.

And mot of Byakuyas techs don't rely on physical strength

Originally posted by Samurai100
And mot of Byakuyas techs don't rely on physical strength True, plus Nnoitra skin is denser than Kenpachi, that means Byakuya tech can hurt him.

ABC logic.

Since my post hasn't been replied to yet I hearby claim victory in the name of The New Lunar Republic!


Victory muffins go to me alone. Bwahahahhahahhahahaha

Originally posted by Samurai100
And mot of Byakuyas techs don't rely on physical strength By that logic, even though a pick-axe is better at breaking rock than a dildo, since a dildo doesn't rely on its ability to pierce rock it can therefore pierce rock.

estahuh

Originally posted by NemeBro
Byakuya is clearly weaker than Nnoitra.

Being stronger helps, but that still does not mean byakuya can not cut kenpachi.

All byakuya has to do is use bankai, cut out his eyes and then hes blind....

lol cause being blind has stopped Kenpachi before.

And I don't think Byakuya would fight that dirty.

Originally posted by NemeBro
By that logic, even though a pick-axe is better at breaking rock than a dildo, since a dildo doesn't rely on its ability to pierce rock it can therefore pierce rock.

estahuh

Not my point I was simply pointing out that it would rely on how strong SB and SBK were to the people that were pointing out Byakuya's inferior strength,(which is baseless, as id Shikai Ichigo could cut Kenny then Byakuya should be able to do so)

Originally posted by NemeBro
By that logic, even though a pick-axe is better at breaking rock than a dildo, since a dildo doesn't rely on its ability to pierce rock it can therefore pierce rock.

estahuh


That's a shitty reply.


Moving around pink shards of shrapnel with TK hardly requires physical strength. estahuh

You're a shitty reply.

If the question is 'can Byakuya cut Kempachi' the answer is yes; he did so in the Zanpakuto Arc if I remember correctly.

Also, what about kido?

Zan arcs filler. It doesn't count