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Nathan Grey takes on Wally West. Go!

Probably Wally.

Nate.

Wally enters the speed force 'relatavistic' time means nothing and his speed goes infinite as when he outran the black flash.

X-man is prob one of the best opponents against flash. X-Man takes it imo.

X-man can still intangible right??

Flash speed blitz
viewing his timeline is essentially pointless since when the fight starts one nano second in the future is still one nano second in the future no matter how you look at it. During that time Flash would have pushed his hand inside X-man's head while hes thinking of looking too far into the future

Nate for a solid majority, but not a stomp

Originally posted by SasuOna
Flash speed blitz
viewing his timeline is essentially pointless since when the fight starts one nano second in the future is still one nano second in the future no matter how you look at it. During that time Flash would have pushed his hand inside X-man's head while hes thinking of looking too far into the future Because Wally kills, right?

Originally posted by Mindset
Because Wally kills, right? when he can't afford to mess around.

Yeah well he's about to get messed around real good.

I'm at a loss for what a speedblitz is supposed to do against a being of pure telekinetic energy?

I mean sure, flash has some exotic options that might give him a couple of wins, but not a majority

Originally posted by Uriel005
when he can't afford to mess around. When was the last time Wally killed another hero?

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm at a loss for what a speedblitz is supposed to do against a being of pure telekinetic energy?

I mean sure, flash has some exotic options that might give him a couple of wins, but not a majority Yea, there's that too, forgetting this is current Grey.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm at a loss for what a speedblitz is supposed to do against a being of pure telekinetic energy?

I mean sure, flash has some exotic options that might give him a couple of wins, but not a majority

You don't know anything about Wally then its okay. As long as he still has some form of mass Wally would end up messing him up.

Originally posted by SasuOna
You don't know anything about Wally then its okay. As long as he still has some form of mass Wally would end up messing him up.

what don't I know then?

Originally posted by inimalist
what don't I know then?

Okay you said hes pure telepathic energy inferring that it would make him immune to the Flash which isn't true since hes still physically taking up space and anything with mass can be rearranged by the Flash.


So when I say speed blitz this is exactly whats going to happen.

you have a scan that:

a) shows flash disrupting TK energy

b) proves TK energy has mass

Originally posted by Mindset
When was the last time Wally killed another hero?

Yea, there's that too, forgetting this is current Grey. good point. My question is does xman have intangibility capability.

Originally posted by inimalist
you have a scan that:

a) shows flash disrupting TK energy

b) proves TK energy has mass

Well I know psionic energy has been described as electromagnetic....

Originally posted by Deadline
Well I know psionic energy has been described as electromagnetic....

so you would argue magneto could manipulate tk?

Originally posted by inimalist
so you would argue magneto could manipulate tk?

TK is psionic energy. Not saying that Flash could affect it for sure.

same. I suppose simply showing a scan that says "tk energy has mass" would still be inconclusive, the "radiation doesn't cause spider powers" fallacy, if you will

Originally posted by inimalist
same. I suppose simply showing a scan that says "tk energy has mass" would still be inconclusive, the "radiation doesn't cause spider powers" fallacy, if you will

At FTL speeds I suspect he could. There is a feat of Jay Garrick taken out The King Of Tears that was some abstract lvl beast. Jay Garrick was going hella fast though.

the thing is, even beyond him being able to affect Nate, I'd be suspicious of flash using any of these rarer or more exotic moves off the bat. I mean, general knowledge of x man isn't going to be a whole lot of details, and IMHO, Nate will totally **** up flash before he realized that normal blitz punches are ineffective.

Exodus got crushed by Quicksilver. Nate has no way of reacting to Wally. He's dead.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Exodus got crushed by Quicksilver. Nate has no way of reacting to Wally. He's dead.

not really. in the QS mini he gets a major amp that he describes as making him as strong as magneto. in bloodties Exodus takes him out at least twice, once while he is running.

if current QS is FTL, he would take exodus, but standard exodus vs classic QS goes to exodus in a major stomp

Originally posted by Deadline
Well I know psionic energy has been described as electromagnetic....

I think it's stupid, but it would help explain why technology can be used to amplify psionic powers and why Storm was able to disperse Psylocke's telekinesis with lightning.

Flash does have the ability to shape Speed Force energy (ala Green Lantern). Its a bit more limited and I honestly don't know the scope of it, but would that give him the ability to control energy - using comic science logic - that has vibrations/speed/movement to it?

I'm asking in hopes that a Flash fan knows. Mungi?

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Flash does have the ability to shape Speed Force energy (ala Green Lantern). Its a bit more limited and I honestly don't know the scope of it, but would that give him the ability to control energy - using comic science logic - that has vibrations/speed/movement to it?

I'm asking in hopes that a Flash fan knows. Mungi?

SF Constructs, he can also accelerate/decelerate subatomic particles, so 'psions' shouldn't be an issue.

energy manipulation almost never includes tk though. I suppose Grail might be an exception, but most energy manipulators don't seem to be able to control psionics

Originally posted by Vinnie Jonez
SF Constructs, he can also accelerate/decelerate subatomic particles, so 'psions' shouldn't be an issue.

which sub atomic particles compose psionic energy?

Originally posted by inimalist




which sub atomic particles compose psionic energy?

Psions.. The theoretical sub atomic particle which gives psionic energy it's name. You've heard of the wave/particle duality?

Originally posted by Vinnie Jonez
Psions.. The theoretical sub atomic particle which gives psionic energy it's name. You've heard of the wave/particle duality?

Originally posted by inimalist
energy manipulation almost never includes tk though. I suppose Grail might be an exception, but most energy manipulators don't seem to be able to control psionics


Magneto, Storm, and Vulcan come to mind. Not that I'm suggesting that the Flash is that powerful, just that it does happen.

I see Nate winning this battle more often than not. As powerful as Wally can be his characteristics and overall intelligence downplay that potential by a lot.

Xman

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Magneto, Storm, and Vulcan come to mind. Not that I'm suggesting that the Flash is that powerful, just that it does happen.

I see Nate winning this battle more often than not. As powerful as Wally can be his characteristics and overall intelligence downplay that potential by a lot.

fair enough, I suppose I'm just not aware of any times they have done such

for magneto, you mean outside of his psi resistance?

Originally posted by inimalist
fair enough, I suppose I'm just not aware of any times they have done such

for magneto, you mean outside of his psi resistance?

IIRC, Magneto made all the earth psionics less powerful by permanately manipulating the earth's magnetic field - as in Marvel psionic energy is nothing more than part of the electromagnetic spectrum and runs via earth's field apparently.

This and Ironman being able to distort Moondragon's TP so all she heard was static are just some examples of how Psionic energy operates in Marvel.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
IIRC, Magneto made all the earth psionics less powerful by permanately manipulating the earth's magnetic field - as in Marvel psionic energy is nothing more than part of the electromagnetic spectrum and runs via earth's field apparently.

This and Ironman being able to distort Moondragon's TP so all she heard was static are just some examples of how Psionic energy operates in Marvel.

weird...

I'm not arguing it, just that it seems like something a lot of high end energy manipulators are... inconsistant(?)... in their application of?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Exodus got crushed by Quicksilver. Nate has no way of reacting to Wally. He's dead. TP, wtf...that has nothing to do with anything other than them having somewhat related powers to the people being discussed.

You're not even trying anymore.

Originally posted by Mindset
TP, wtf...that has nothing to do with anything other than them having somewhat related powers to the people being discussed.

You're not even trying anymore.

its also totally out of context

If freaking Quicksilver can react faster than a reasonably high end telepath, that doesn't bode well for X-Man. Hell, Flash has moved faster than telepaths before.

Nate has to think to use his powers. By the time he thinks, Flash can hit him thousands of times if he's trying.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5169/avengers36901.th.jpghttp://img593.imageshack.us/img593/5231/avengers36902.th.jpg

and, settled

Sorry man, but considering who he's up against, that feat doesn't mean a thing. Nice speed feat though.

It's AOA versions of the twins which were pale comparsions to their 616 counterparts. Meh!

Also Flash > Twins

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Sorry man, but considering who he's up against, that feat doesn't mean a thing. Nice speed feat though.

So, if being able to see into the future and step outside of time is not enough to be able to hang w/ flash speedwise, what would it take for you to think he wast fast enough?

I thought the whole crux of the debate circled around how X-Man has telekinetically moved past the limitations and flow of time, and achieved Zoom-like abilities?

Also, is there any proof of that? I only have a vague recollection of his fight with the Dark Avengers, but I don't know if this whole premise is based on anything beyond that scene.

He's got Zoom's power now? Can someone show me a scan? Because I haven't heard a thing about him being on that level.

Simbon: Wally is faster than Death itself. He outraced the Black Flash to the end of the universe. It's almost impossible to outrace the Flash. I've heard of something called 'The Shrike' that might be faster, but that thing has hax time manipulation.

He's getting choked by Ares. And that's......weird. I don't think that's Zoom's power though. I'm not really sure WHAT that is.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's got Zoom's power now? Can someone show me a scan? Because I haven't heard a thing about him being on that level.

Simbon: Wally is faster than Death itself. He outraced the Black Flash to the end of the universe. It's almost impossible to outrace the Flash. I've heard of something called 'The Shrike' that might be faster, but that thing has hax time manipulation.

I'm not saying flash doesn't have crazy speed feats (that is obvious; and by the way, I'm never impressed with feats against abstractions, which paradoxically tend to be weaker than many comics characters -- affecting reality with physical blows, for instance, has been accomplished by many herald-levellers), but Nate has demonstrated the ability to see through and manipulate time to a limited extent. So I'm asking you, within the marvel universe, what he would have to do to be able to hang with wally.

The problem with Flash is......if he can hurt you with his blows, you're in trouble. At his best, The Flash is faster than anything. Pico-second, atto-second, he's got feats that defy description. He's outraced instant teleportation.

No one in Marvel is that fast. Nate would need time manipulation, and he'd need to be fast enough to activate it before Flash got to him. This is a very hard thing to do. Even Surfer and Runner aren't as fast as Flash.

You need to be either so durable he can't hurt you, be faster, have instant healing, energy form, hax time manip........, dude, this is actually hard to do without going into trans, skyfather and up level power. And even then, you might lose. Abstracts beat him for sure, but Flash is incredibly uber. srug

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The problem with Flash is......if he can hurt you with his blows, you're in trouble. At his best, The Flash is faster than anything. Pico-second, atto-second, he's got feats that defy description. He's outraced instant teleportation.

No one in Marvel is that fast. Nate would need time manipulation, and he'd need to be fast enough to activate it before Flash got to him. This is a very hard thing to do. Even Surfer and Runner aren't as fast as Flash.

You need to be either so durable he can't hurt you, be faster, have instant healing, energy form, hax time manip........, dude, this is actually hard to do without going into trans, skyfather and up level power. And even then, you might lose. Abstracts beat him for sure, but Flash is incredibly uber. srug Problem is built right into the premise of the speed force being the absolute limit of speed more than it being a problem with the flashes. When the absolute limit of speed is above the speed it takes to run through time and dimensions by leaps and bounds there isn't very much anyone can do about it unless you can control the fundamental ways in which time space and the universe works. It's not so much that X-man has to beat Wally it's that he has to beat the speed-force to beat Wally.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The problem with Flash is......if he can hurt you with his blows, you're in trouble. At his best, The Flash is faster than anything. Pico-second, atto-second, he's got feats that defy description. He's outraced instant teleportation.

No one in Marvel is that fast. Nate would need time manipulation, and he'd need to be fast enough to activate it before Flash got to him. This is a very hard thing to do. Even Surfer and Runner aren't as fast as Flash.

You need to be either so durable he can't hurt you, be faster, have instant healing, energy form, hax time manip........, dude, this is actually hard to do without going into trans, skyfather and up level power. And even then, you might lose. Abstracts beat him for sure, but Flash is incredibly uber. srug

Nate has precognition and some kind of time manipulation.

Originally posted by Simbon
Nate has precognition and some kind of time manipulation. doesn't matter much when the flash can run back and forth through time to see every result.

Uriel just nailed it right there. It's not the Flash you have to beat. It's the Speed Force. You have to more powerful than the Speed Force or have Zoom level time hax to beat him.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Uriel just nailed it right there. It's not the Flash you have to beat. It's the Speed Force. You have to more powerful than the Speed Force or have Zoom level time hax to beat him. Even then with Zoom time hax if Flash ever takes the kiddy gloves off and goes for the kill he can and will with little effort like when he snapped zoom's neck like a twig.

He did need abit of an amp to make it a fair fight. But yeah, once he could see him clearly, it was no contest.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He did need abit of an amp to make it a fair fight. But yeah, once he could see him clearly, it was no contest. Honestly I don't think he really needed the amp. It was more of when he needed to open up the throttle the speedforce provided.

Also there was an issue somewhere about the flash and flight I believe in the nova vs flash event. Wally proved flashes can fly when he was in that big race where Krakkl was stealing his speed for the whole race. IDR where it's from though. Just throwing that out there.

Impulse has done it too. It's well within their powerset.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Uriel just nailed it right there. It's not the Flash you have to beat. It's the Speed Force. You have to more powerful than the Speed Force or have Zoom level time hax to beat him.

I see, so it's the speedsters are skyfather-level argument?

Check out the respect thread if you think we're exaggerating. Flash is seriously broken to fight against if you consider just how powerful he is.

I've read the respect thread; and I think that a lot of people are dismissing the low-feats of speedsters to put them in a power-bracket they don't occupy in the comics. Zoom may be trans, but most of the speedsters are high herald. Galan, who is generally a reasonable and knowledgeable guy, suggested recently that a team consisting of Darkseid, Thanos, Henshaw, Sinestro, and I forget who else couldn't do anything to Wally West, which would put ol' Wally a bit above Odin, I'd say. Pure...gibbering...insanity.

That doesn't really put him above Odin imo. I read that thread and what he was saying is that they probably wouldn't be able catch him for quite some time. That same insane reaction time combined with the ability to stop motion entirely on massive levels is what justifies this imo. It's not that he's more powerful, just that his powers can either prevent others from using theirs or just avoid them entirely.

However, I'm not sure what Nate's new powers are defined as.... I thought they were just high tk and tp, but I was wrong apparently. I do think that will help him in his fight with Wally though. I don't think that Wally is unbeatable, but I do think that he is very difficult to beat.

Originally posted by Uriel005
X-man can still intangible right?? yes, it's actually his default state apparentlyOriginally posted by SasuOna
Okay you said hes pure telepathic energy inferring that it would make him immune to the Flash which isn't true since hes still physically taking up space and anything with mass can be rearranged by the Flash.


So when I say speed blitz this is exactly whats going to happen. SNG isnt really solid. he is pure psionic energy, but he made himself a body by creating a kind of pseudo-matter to interact with the physical world in a more conventional fashion (actually it's for the sake of us readers). however, this pseudo-matter is note really solid and apparently lacks mass. SNG is intangible at rest and flash aint punching or rearranging (which he wouldnt do with CIS on anyway) him. furthermore, rearranging him will acomplish nothing as he doesnt need the body he willed into existence at all. he has desintegrated his body and moved on (as pure psionic energy) to mindrape and take possession of norman osbourne. SNG simply transcends the physical world.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
IIRC, Magneto made all the earth psionics less powerful by permanately manipulating the earth's magnetic field - as in Marvel psionic energy is nothing more than part of the electromagnetic spectrum and runs via earth's field apparently.

This and Ironman being able to distort Moondragon's TP so all she heard was static are just some examples of how Psionic energy operates in Marvel. I believe he did that by screwing with the functions in their brains. a lot of energy manipulators/blasters can interfere with psionic attacks, but that doesnt mean they are manipualting psionic energy, I think it's more like throwing lighting at a fireball. besides, there is the matter of power scale and only magneto comes close tot he level of ebergy manipualtiona x-mand and godcable have displayed IIRC cable manipualted the enrgy of 200 exploding nuclear warheads and released it outside the earth.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's getting choked by Ares. And that's......weird. I don't think that's Zoom's power though. I'm not really sure WHAT that is. it was a ruse, he was playing ares. it's not zoom's power, it's somethign else entirely, but coupled with intangibility, teleportation, area of efrect attacks and precognition, it can counter the blitz capacity

intangibility means something to the Flash now?

You would have to be as fast or faster then Wally to teleport away from him before he hits you.

AOE attacks? is that going to happen before or after Wally has already killed Nate?

Precog is only good if you have the reactions to keep up with what you know. For example you know the flash is going to hit you at 10 oclock tommorow but you can't do anything about it because your not fast enough to avoid him anyway.

Now imagine Nate knows hes going to hit him in the next microsecond he would still have to have reactions comparable to the Flash to avoid something like that.

Originally posted by SasuOna
intangibility means something to the Flash now?

You would have to be as fast or faster then Wally to teleport away from him before he hits you.

AOE attacks? is that going to happen before or after Wally has already killed Nate?

Precog is only good if you have the reactions to keep up with what you know. For example you know the flash is going to hit you at 10 oclock tommorow but you can't do anything about it because your not fast enough to avoid him anyway.

Now imagine Nate knows hes going to hit him in the next microsecond he would still have to have reactions comparable to the Flash to avoid something like that. really? how would flash touch him exactly?. even if his body was destroyed, it would mean squat to him, he'd just TK crush or mindrape flash afterwards.

before. Flash is uncapable fo killing SNG btw.

lulz

Originally posted by 753
it was a ruse, he was playing ares. it's not zoom's power, it's somethign else entirely, but coupled with intangibility, teleportation, area of efrect attacks and precognition, it can counter the blitz capacity

Not just that but he sees time differently, so Flash won't be able to speedblitz him anyway. Thats how Grandmaster could see Runner and Makkari vibrating at high speeds.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Also there was an issue somewhere about the flash and flight I believe in the nova vs flash event. Wally proved flashes can fly when he was in that big race where Krakkl was stealing his speed for the whole race. IDR where it's from though. Just throwing that out there.


WTH?
ure telling me now Flash's can fly with significant speed?

lol he did do it actually.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
WTH?
ure telling me now Flash's can fly with significant speed? they run through air and even space

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
lol he did do it actually.


ive seen those scans... why mention flashs can fly as if it can be used as a significant advantage in a fight especially against those who can fly at incredible speeds... this is directed to the previous posters btw like Trickster... sigh



Originally posted by 753
they run through air and even space

Originally posted by Uriel005
Also there was an issue somewhere about the flash and flight I believe in the nova vs flash event. Wally proved flashes can fly when he was in that big race where Krakkl was stealing his speed for the whole race. IDR where it's from though. Just throwing that out there.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
lol he did do it actually.


no


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=549006&pagenumber=2



Xman wins

X-man would get killed by Wally stirring his brain to death

Originally posted by SasuOna
X-man would get killed by Wally stirring his brain to death

His brain is the last thing Wally would want to mess with.

Its nice to have a Marvel character that can defintely deal with speed.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
His brain is the last thing Wally would want to mess with.

Yes cause Wally obviously has telepathy and thats exactly what I was talking about.

Shaman wins

Originally posted by SasuOna
Yes cause Wally obviously has telepathy and thats exactly what I was talking about.


I guess u didnt recognize my "tongue in cheek"
Meh...

Originally posted by Blair Wind
That's not a supped up version of Zoom. And it has nothing to do with his actual reaction time in combat.

Nate 10/10Originally posted by inimalist
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5169/avengers36901.th.jpghttp://img593.imageshack.us/img593/5231/avengers36902.th.jpg

and, settled

Originally posted by Uriel005
doesn't matter much when the flash can run back and forth through time to see every result. Nate can do the same, only at all points of time. In all planes of existence. Without the running.

nate has all the tools to neutralize him. he wins

hrm. not sure. even if nate can perceive him--which i'm not 100% sure he could do--that doesn't mean he could necessarily affect him. if flash actually enters the sf, he could literally out-run nate's ability to find him in time. and just because he's capable of seeing multiple time lines does not imply that he can necessarily 'see' flash.

and for all this talk of plank time, (which sounds very cool) it is still based on the movement of a single proton moving at LIGHTSPEED. if we stick to that definition, wally can move almost infinitely faster and perform millions of feats within that 'plank time'. plank time is the smallest division of time wherein time still has 'meaning' for us (in a sense that anything shorter=break down of physcial science and enter quantum chaos). well, the sf is literally extra-dimensional and exists outside physical laws ALREADY.

iow--flash>>>plank time. and not only flash--anyone capable of ftl can cover the 'plank length' faster than a proton moving at lightspeed could.

thats real science extrapolation leo, you know better

besides, entering the speedforce is a pretty uncommon tactic for flash and it raises the question of how he would attack nate from it

im normally one of the biggest Pro Flash supporters...but no way, not this time.


Nate takes it

All this talk about atto second, pico second etc. Etc... Ughhh... as crazee as it sounds, planck units does trump a yoctosecond, which trumps a zeptosecond, which trumps an attosecond, and so on and so forth... Bleh.... This is wack!!!

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
All this talk about atto second, pico second etc. Etc... Ughhh... as crazee as it sounds, planck units does trump a yoctosecond, which trumps a zeptosecond, which trumps an attosecond, and so on and so forth... Bleh.... This is wack!!!

Here is a nice little table for reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_%28time%29

Originally posted by "Id"
Here is a nice little table for reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_%28time%29 still makes no difference if wally does a speed force barrier break. At that point you could throw all the measurements of time you want at him and it still counts for nothing as he's moving at rates where time and space essentially become inconsequential as he's capable of moving faster than the limitations of velocity that the universe itself has. Nate will look at the timestream and you know what he'll see. A blitz of nigh unlimited punches wailing away at him faster than anything he could come up with. Unless an opponent is starting at intangible or has a barrier that no matter what the flash did in a trillion years it would still hold up nothing should be able to stop a no holds barred Wally/Barry/Bart Flash as they tap the speedforce directly. Any attack made against them does nil as they step around it in time or just dump themsevles into another dimension and run around it. Their blows are all potentially IMP. Stop dicking around with semantics about how he never tosses more than one because usually thats all he needs and for him to spam them is not viable in comics but based on how it is defined it is perfectly reasonable that the Flash COULD in fact spam them as many times as he can punch. Moving at his absolute fastest the blows would blur into a single consecutive force because the kinetic energy transferred would never have time to disperse and be absorbed.

It has been proven that the flash can move that fast when doing speedforce barrier break and scans have been posted of him doing so. The explanation HAS been posted for the IMP that explains why it is spammable. I believe I posted that in the Odin vs Zoom and Flash thread.

Now I have shown why the flash is so absurdly broken when actually applying the powers that he has shown in a single fight.

Now prove that anyone can do anything against it. I'm getting tired of posting several scans that SHOW that the Flash is capable of contending with the absolute top tiers. Now give me proof that any of the characters he's fighting with have a way to deal with him at his best.

An Imp hits like a white dwarf star lets see how X-man stands up to millions of those.

1. When's Flash ever spammed IMPs?
2. Why would he do this when CIS is on?
3. Can we please stop with the "force of (insert random ass galactic term here) blows" argument?

Originally posted by Harbinger
1. When's Flash ever spammed IMPs?
2. Why would he do this when CIS is on?
3. Can we please stop with the "force of (insert random ass galactic term here) blows" argument? my point is that he could if it came down to it. my issue is with the people outright denying that he has the capacity to do so.

Originally posted by Uriel005
my point is that he could if it came down to it. my issue is with the people outright denying that he has the capacity to do so.


Oh you mean like how he has the capacity to run in air and space unaided??

/Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Oh you mean like how he has the capacity to run in air and space unaided??

http://imageshack.us/f/237/jlaourworldsatwarpg040yr.jpg/

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6270/jlaourworldsatwarpg033kg.jpg

Originally posted by Uriel005
/ http://imageshack.us/f/237/jlaourworldsatwarpg040yr.jpg/

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6270/jlaourworldsatwarpg033kg.jpg

uh huh... "undaided"...

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Miscelaneous/Flashv213612.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Miscelaneous/Flashv213614.jpg

how bout straight from his own buddy's mouth...

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Miscelaneous/GreenLanternv46002.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Miscelaneous/GreenLanternv46004.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Miscelaneous/GreenLanternv46006.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Miscelaneous/GreenLanternv46007.jpg

^ So you think Flash can't run in space
nice to know

Originally posted by SasuOna
^ So you think Flash can't run in space
nice to know pretty sure what i just posted was him running in space... writer inconsistency but i'll take it.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's really simple--"plank time" is simply the time it takes LIGHT to travel a single unit of "plank length". it doesn't matter WHAT a plank length is (which, in reality, is really, really REALLY small--almost inconceiveably smaller than a proton). if plank length=the width of a proton or a kilometer, it's irrelevant. "plank time" is BASED ON THE SPEED OF LIGHT.

therefore, ANYTHING travelling FASTER than light>>>plank time. or to say it another way--anyone travelling FASTER than c is ALREADY moving "within" plank time.

the whole "plank time" thing really is sorta silly. one more writer trying to make something 'sound cool' i think. it in no way really implies you can 'see' the future. ares certainly isn't capable of ftl speeds but was combatting nate WITHIN his 'plank time' space. it does mean that the rules of the physical world are swapped for quantum dynamics though, which, i guess, can be used to explain pretty well anything.

flash's speed though can become nearly infinite. that is FAR in excess of a 'time' that is based solely upon the speed of light. even 'plank time'.

i'm not trying to 'down play' the ability. to perceive the world in plank time is obviously impressive. just saying, it certainly isn't, by definition, greater at all than what flash has done. agree on all accounts leo, but it is enough to negate a blitz and the instaKO flash psoters atribute to him. plus he is only semitangible by default and has AoE attacks, mindrape and the possibility to remake his faux matter body or use his powers without it. overall, he has what it takes.

Originally posted by 753
agree on all accounts leo, but it is enough to negate a blitz and the instaKO flash psoters atribute to him. plus he is only semitangible by default and has AoE attacks, mindrape and the possibility to remake his faux matter body or use his powers without it. overall, he has what it takes.

i agree with you that nate COULD win this, absolutely. it just seems some think 'plank time' feats=>>>flash feats. that part just isn't true.

i really have no idea how this would play out in a book. shrug

Originally posted by 753
agree on all accounts leo, but it is enough to negate a blitz and the instaKO flash psoters atribute to him. plus he is only semitangible by default and has AoE attacks, mindrape and the possibility to remake his faux matter body or use his powers without it. overall, he has what it takes. In all honesty 753 it shouldn't be enough to stop an all out flash blitz. When flash puts on the gas and goes to max speed he's faster than anything else in the universe. Also the speedforce by itself is absurdly powerful when you consider what it can do. At some point Flash broke his legs and basically pulled braces out of the speedforce to keep running. It negates the damn Anti-Life equation and basically controls kinetic energy.

I know others may not agree with me and that is their prerogative but in my opinion the Flash is basically not getting taken down in a straight fight by anything short of reality altercation to remove him from the universe. TP is shown not to work on him when he fought Martian in blackest night as he just accelerates his thoughts beyond their comprehension. Other attacks he just steps around in time and space. He also hits like a mac truck and can bfr dump as well as make all movement on his opponents. So basically Flash going all out using all his abilities is a retarded character to use in comic books.

zoom's timewarp gives the flash hell all the time. SNG's step out of time trick should pull some similar results, and hed phase through the blitz, forcing flash to resort to his more exotic attacks. as they face each other exotic attack against exotic attack, I see SNg coming out on top more often.

Originally posted by 753
zoom's timewarp gives the flash hell all the time. SNG's step out of time trick should pull some similar results, and hed phase through the blitz, forcing flash to resort to his more exotic attacks. as they face each other exotic attack against exotic attack, I see SNg coming out on top more often. But the flash really tends not to use his more exotic powers against Zoom. I think I've brought this up before that speedsteal to keep up was the big thing in their fights that I've seen Flash pull up. No speedforce barrier breaks, no speedsteals though with negative speedforce I don't know if that would work phasing through obstacles was another one but really Flash tends to go stupid with his options around hunter or thrawne. Also is Shaman always intangible or is it a conscious/unconscious thing like Alan Scott.

.

Originally posted by Uriel005
But the flash really tends not to use his more exotic powers against Zoom. I think I've brought this up before that speedsteal to keep up was the big thing in their fights that I've seen Flash pull up. No speedforce barrier breaks, no speedsteals though with negative speedforce I don't know if that would work phasing through obstacles was another one but really Flash tends to go stupid with his options around hunter or thrawne. Also is Shaman always intangible or is it a conscious/unconscious thing like Alan Scott. Dark avengers amde it seem like it was his default state, he just wasnt really solid. he could still inprint force onto objects as if touching them in a traditional sense, but it was like he wasnt really there, attacks phased right through

Originally posted by Uriel005
racing death to the end of the universe any time he breaks the speedforce barrier... A quantifiable value.

Originally posted by "Id"
A unit measured by how the speed of a photon, covering the length something less than a proton. That takes place in a multiple of 44 of a second.

You see I understand very well what your trying to argue. But your arguing by theorem, since you lack any hard evidence. Otherwise you would have supplied me with the following scans.

Wally covering grounds at Planck Units/Time.
Wally entering the Planck Length.


your "argument" is nonsensical. you're asking the wrong thing, looking for the wrong thing. a plank unit is a measure of DISTANCE, not speed. the plank length is ALSO a measure of distance. there is no 'entering it'. there is no "covering the ground in plank units". ANY distance can be measured in "plank units", like a parsec can be measured in micrometers. you'd just need a lot of them. think of wally as a photon. it is the fastest measurable speed in the universe--LIGHT. but light is nothing compared to wally and others.



so you want.... quantifable speed feats from flash? there is of course the time he cleared the people from the explosion and he was moving several 100s/1000s of times>c. there is this which is NOT quantifiable:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/blackflash15.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/blackflash16.jpg

literally racing to the END OF TIME. "plank time" has no meaning here. why? BECAUSE IT IS BASED ON THE SPEED OF LIGHT. it breaks down. this speed feat is UNQUANTIFIABLE, as is ANYTHING suprpassing light, and thus surpassing "plank time". you would ned to prove (if nate is within this time frame) how much FASTER THEN LIGHT is he? but that doesn't work, it's not how his powers work. his are perceptual, imo, as opposed to motion-based. he can see multiple timelines--past and present. wally can do the exact same thing. while racing black flash he saw himself in the past and future than went so far past that he reached the END OF TIME. to me, that indicates his speed and ability to perceive things>nates who could only see a limited amount of time into the future or past.

whether plank time is measured over a tony distance, or a galactic distance matters not at all. ANYONE travelling>c can cover the distance (whatever you want it to be) FASTER THAN A PHOTON CAN.

honestly, not sure how it could be any clearer. you can simply say--BOTH must exist WITHIN plank time, but since there is no way to quantify it, we simply can't say which is...... "faster" (for lack of a better term), but it is clear that exceeding c means you leave physical laws behind.

Hell I will make it even simpler. If Wally is operating in a zeptoseconds, and Nate is operating in Planck Units. Its Wally, who will look like a standing statue. To compete, Wally would have to push himself into infinite speed, like how he did with the Black Flash.

Peace!stonedgun3

Originally posted by "Id"
Hell I will make it even simpler. If Wally is operating in a zeptoseconds, and Nate is operating in Planck Units. Its Wally, who will look like a standing statue. To compete, Wally would have to push himself into infinite speed, like how he did with the Black Flash.

Peace!stonedgun3

sigh.....

you're right, we can not discuss this issue. you are using the term 'plank unit' like it's a measure of speed and that is absolutely wrong. there are actually multiple plank units--mass, time and length can all be regarded as 'plank units'. the 'time' plank unit, it is merely a very very small measurement of time. the thing is, it is so small because the DISTANCE OVER WHICH IT IS MEASURED IS SO SMALL. if you are operating in 'plank time' you are GOING the speed of light. and it most CERTAINLY does NOT shame any flash speed feat. why? because flash operates in the MACROWORLD. imagine how quickly flash could cover something as small as a plank length. seriously.

photon starts at point (a) and is released. when it crosses point (b), the time it took from point (a) to point (b) is measured. nothing in the universe can go from point (a) to (b) faster than a photon.

in the comicbook universe, that simply doesn't hold true.

i truly, in all sincerity, don't see how you're questioning this issue.

plank HIMSELF stated: these natural units would always remain the same as long as the law of gravitation, the speed of light in a vacuum, and the principles of thermodynamics remain valid.

the plank unit that defines time is BASED ON THE SPEED OF LIGHT. the plank length, as it was used by that author, was MISUSED. it makes no sense.

iow, to say someone exceeds light, means--BY PLANK'S OWN DEFINITION--that they are outside the boundaries defined by his units.

now, i agree with what you said a couple above--since nate was 'within' these time frames, he is seeing things in a quantum sense. but how does that translate? we can only go by how far in 'time' they were able to see. flash went to the END OF TIME. that implies his 'speed' (for lack of a better term, again)>nate's.

i would argue his ability is mainly perceptual because ares was also able to enter this localized timeframe he was in. no way it could have been motion-based.

seriously, if you are "covering ground in 'plank units'" you are misusing the term. if you don't see that..... shrug

Cool I agree to disagree.

the two of you really arguing over nonsense. planck time is a just cool sounding word. we can't assume anything about his speed because he isnt even moving through normal space, but stepping outside of the timestream to look at multiple possible futures (and pasts) spreading before him then reentering or affecting the timeline at will. we cant draw any conclusions about his "speed" or reaction times based on it.

SNG wins

EDIT: my post has arrived too late. Damn you Id

Originally posted by 753


SNG wins

I agree to agree to this.

Originally posted by 753


EDIT: my post has arrived too late. Damn you Id

I am tuned into the Planck length. Before me, all your replies are useless. abcmwahaha

Originally posted by 753
the two of you really arguing over nonsense. planck time is a just cool sounding word. we can't assume anything about his speed because he isnt even moving through normal space, but stepping outside of the timestream to look at multiple possible futures (and pasts) spreading before him then reentering or affecting the timeline at will. we cant draw any conclusions about his "speed" or reaction times based on it. Shut up.

It obviously relates to his speed.

Because Nate Grey's reaction time is obviously of the 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds magnitude.

You've just got to have a deep understanding of the character.

Masturbate to him, in those lonely, rainy nights.

Originally posted by "Id"
Cool I agree to disagree.

Nate

Interesting battle. I can see either winning.

Nate grey.. Iirc... Was in Planck time when Ares the god of war matched Nate grey and approached him.

Do we assume ares has super speed at the level of Nate grey also...

Originally posted by rotiart
Nate grey.. Iirc... Was in Planck time when Ares the god of war matched Nate grey and approached him.

Do we assume ares has super speed at the level of Nate grey also... we assume he can traverse dimensions and timewarp on his own

Originally posted by rotiart
Nate grey.. Iirc... Was in Planck time when Ares the god of war matched Nate grey and approached him.

Do we assume ares has super speed at the level of Nate grey also...

If you read how Area did that and what Nate explained then you wouldn't be saying Ares has super speed.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
If you read how Area did that and what Nate explained then you wouldn't be saying Ares has super speed.

that's a part of the whole problem.....

Originally posted by ankur29
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_Dark_X-Men_03_0014.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_Dark_X-Men_03_0015.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_Dark_X-Men_03_0016.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_Dark_X-Men_03_0017.jpg http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu355/ankur29/th_Dark_X-Men_03_0018.jpg

Speaking of???

Originally posted by OneDumbG0


ODG your an avid Thor reader, has Ares ever shown the ability to manipulate time/space to such degree?

Originally posted by "Id"
ODG your an avid Thor reader, has Ares ever shown the ability to manipulate time/space to such degree? Eden makes mention of four-dimensional space, length, width, height, and (presumably) time when Ares busts through his portal: Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Secret Warriors #9

Ares rips open a portal that Eden says only he controls who goes through.
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/577/sw09003.th.jpghttp://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3394/sw09004.th.jpg The look on Eden's face is priceless.

^ Not sure why that's necessary? Ares' own description by X-Man and Ares' own feats seems to stand up better than anything we can extrapolate from Thor or other gods.

^ His axe's magical characteristics (if any) haven't, to my knowledge, ever been pointed to as the source of his feats.

For me, boiled down, Ares has demonstrated the ability to perceive/fight people hiding in between moments in time and can transcend four dimensional apertures.

Thor's comments/actions concerning his divinity do support that. I just happen to think Ares' feats/nature stand on their own.

all this would only further allude to the fact that nate can see and displace himself--not he actually has that level of motion-based speed....

^ Zoom can see and displace himself within time (and operate within it), and he still contends with Flash's motion-based speed?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Zoom can see and displace himself within time (and operate within it), and he still contends with Flash's motion-based speed?

zoom's powers are.... odd. clearly his ARE motion-based--or he uses his time-based powers to enhance his perceived motion. it doesn't seem to me nate does the same. you think ares could step into zoom's timeframe?

their powers seems quite a bit different to me.

Originally posted by leonidas
zoom's powers are.... odd. clearly his ARE motion-based--or he uses his time-based powers to enhance his perceived motion. it doesn't seem to me nate does the same. you think ares could step into zoom's timeframe?

their powers seems quite a bit different to me.

Considering what we know of Ares, why couldn't he step into Zoom's timeframe?

Originally posted by leonidas
zoom's powers are.... odd. clearly his ARE motion-based--or he uses his time-based powers to enhance his perceived motion. it doesn't seem to me nate does the same. you think ares could step into zoom's timeframe?

their powers seems quite a bit different to me. What we perceive as Zoom's accelerated speed appears to be him just operating within or between moments of time, whereas everyone else operates along moments of time or during moments of time.

That seems to be what Nate did, and what Ares' godliness negated (the excuse being, he exists in all timeframes simultaneously as the very concept of war personified).

Nate hasn't used these powers often enough for there to be a concrete comparison, but they look analogous. To me anyway.

so zoom's "time bubble" = nates "planck time thingy"??
hmm...
more or less... meh...