Flash vs. Void

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Blind Sider
Full powers on.

The best version of Flash vs. the Sentry with Void powers.

Black bolt z
Bets version?

Would that be bart?

kgkg
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Bets version?

Would that be bart? Wally is pretty sexy to.

Blind Sider
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Bets version?

Would that be bart?
Ok. Didn't know Bart was better than Wally.

Two fights.

Wally at his best and then another fight with Bart at his best.

shokosugi
any version of Flash kills Void.

JakeTheBank
Jay Garrick FTW.

Zack Fair
No Barry love?

quanchi112
Sentry wins.

Slaanesh
i don't know how Flash is going to put down Void..maybe he can dump Void into the speed force..Void for majority..

Badabing
Void blinks, Flash decides "it had to be done", and ends Bob.

bbrem123
void

tkitna
Void wins

Uriel005
going with void here. Problem being he really is in no way shape or form a tangible opponent. Only way I could see Flash winning here is to trap his consciousness in the speedforce but I have no idea if that would even be possible. This is just a bad matchup for flash. His voice is not like supermans where he can take out intangible god opponents by singing a song.

Eon Blue
Flash.

Too many ways to win.

the ninjak
Void wins too many options.

Flash aint stealing the speed of an entity that exists as a molecular manipulating cloud of tentacles. Void perceives what effects him and kills it.
Trapping Void would only result in it recreating itself elsewhere. While its tentacles turn everything it touches into particles.
Sure Wally will be hard to catch but Void can go all day.

Uriel005
Originally posted by the ninjak
Void wins too many options.

Flash aint stealing the speed of an entity that exists as a molecular manipulating cloud of tentacles. Void perceives what effects him and kills it.
Trapping Void would only result in it recreating itself elsewhere. While its tentacles turn everything it touches into particles.
Sure Wally will be hard to catch but Void can go all day. Best thing I see happening is a stalemate here. The problem is with void that you really need some form of energy/matter manip capability or be like superman and have a really awesome tenor voice to beat void.

the ninjak
Void was limited by the fact that he was the final villain in a story arc and had to be beaten. Largely due to Sentry wanting to die. I know it's not canon but in What If Void ended up consuming the Earth then the solar system then ventured out and destroyed everything in it's path.

As long as Void remains the size of a giant octopus it's a stalemate I agree.

TricksterPriest
Thor *****-slapped him. And I sincerely doubt that Void can stop Flash from draining his KE and leaving him a statue ala Inertia.

And it's not getting out of speed-force dump. That's just silly.

SasuOna
The Void will never touch the Flash and considering he recently got stomped by Thor this is just a joke imo

753
lol got stomped as in assraped the avengers and then comitted suicide through thor whom he had beaten up the whole fight?

JakeTheBank
Based on what exactly is Flash unable to steal his speed? If Flash steals his speed and renders Void unable to fight, that's incapacitation right there.

iceman24567
Flash ftw

bbrem123
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Based on what exactly is Flash unable to steal his speed? If Flash steals his speed and renders Void unable to fight, that's incapacitation right there.

since when does stealing speed make u not able to fight?

Mindset
Originally posted by bbrem123
since when does stealing speed make u not able to fight? Steals your kinetic energy so you're unable to move.

bbrem123
Originally posted by SasuOna
The Void will never touch the Flash and considering he recently got stomped by Thor this is just a joke imo

haha...whats a joke is u act like u know what happened in siege when u probably didnt even read it....hence the reason u make stopped point like this thumb up

bbrem123
Originally posted by Mindset
Steals your kinetic energy so you're unable to move.

he doesnt move anyways

either way...flash has no way of putting void down...so the best result for him is a stalemate

iceman24567
Originally posted by bbrem123
since when does stealing speed make u not able to fight? What? You realize he doesnt just steal speed right? He steals the kinetic energy in his opponents body hence the incapacitation

bbrem123
Originally posted by iceman24567
What? You realize he doesnt just steal speed right? He steals a l the kinetic energy in his opponents body hence the incapacitation

yea i get that...would he even be able to do that in the first place tho?

iceman24567
Originally posted by bbrem123
yea i get that...would he even be able to do that in the first place tho? Unless the Void already lacks kinetic energy I dont see why not

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Based on what exactly is Flash unable to steal his speed? If Flash steals his speed and renders Void unable to fight, that's incapacitation right there.

Like 90% of him is some form of psionic tentacles and not a physical body?

Naija boy
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Based on what exactly is Flash unable to steal his speed? If Flash steals his speed and renders Void unable to fight, that's incapacitation right there.

Has flash ever stolen speed from any high end matter manipulators on the level of void? I mean since speed steal is a molecular attack at its core im more than a bit tentative regarding its effectiveness on a character with the molecular manipulation level of the void.

753
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Like 90% of him is some form of psionic tentacles and not a physical body? yeah, there is the matter of just exactly what the hell the void was made of.

@jake

Could flash speedsteal an energy being? if so, would his power cover all forms of energy?

Blind Sider
Originally posted by 753
yeah, there is the matter of just exactly what the hell the void was made of.

@jake

Could flash speedsteal an energy being? if so, would his power cover all forms of energy? All forms of energy is motion. There is no energy if there is no motion. The different types of motion are what makes the different energy signals.

753
without going into the real world physics, comics arent the real world and claiming flash can manipulate energy freely, which he's never done, because he can affect kinetic energy is fallacious

Blind Sider
Originally posted by 753
without going into the real world physics, comics arent the real world and claiming flash can manipulate energy freely, which he's never done, because he can affect kinetic energy is fallacious I'm simply stating that if there is no motion, there is no energy. Kinetic energy at the atomic level is the basis for ALL energy signatures and types.

753
Originally posted by Blind Sider
I'm simply stating that if there is no motion, there is no energy. Kinetic energy at the atomic level is the basis for ALL energy signatures and types. it's also the basis of the structure of matter as electrons orbiting the nucleus and the nucleus itself have movement and energy. but matter does not collpase when flash speedsteals things into statues, so it clearly doesnt follow real world laws

Blind Sider
Originally posted by 753
it's also the basis of the structure of matter as electrons orbiting the nucleus and the nucleus itself have movement and energy. but matter does not collpase when flash speedsteals things into statues, so it clearly doesnt follow real world laws Because the speed force doesn't follow real physics, not because comics energy doesn't follow the rules.

753
Originally posted by Blind Sider
Because the speed force doesn't follow real physics, not because comics energy doesn't follow the rules. tell you what. show me the flash speedstealing photons, magic and telepathy and you'll have a point. even kinetic energy in comics behaves differently depending on the type delivery mechnism: blunt force behaves differently from piercing force

Blind Sider
Originally posted by 753
tell you what. show me the flash speedstealing photons, magic and telepathy and you'll have a point. even kinetic energy in comics behaves differently depending on the type delivery mechnism: blunt force behaves differently from piercing force Blunt force is different from piercing force in RL as well. So.................. I don't have to show Flash speed stealing all of those individual sets. He's stolen entire world's speed. I guess that would already include all those different types of speed.

753
Originally posted by Blind Sider
Blunt force is different from piercing force in RL as well. So.................. I don't have to show Flash speed stealing all of those individual sets. He's stolen entire world's speed. I guess that would already include all those different types of speed.
you dont get what Im saying, characters who can tank blows from the hulk are not bulletproof, even though the pressure, as in force per area, exercised by a punch from the hulk is far above that of a bullet

he only slowed down the speed of the planet teavelling about in space, that has nothing to do with weakening all thse other forms of energy int he planet

Uriel005
Originally posted by 753
without going into the real world physics, comics arent the real world and claiming flash can manipulate energy freely, which he's never done, because he can affect kinetic energy is fallacious Flash can in theory beat anything that keeps it's consciousness in a physical body via speed steal by stopping all neural activity. Odin/physical deities/heralds/ beings who are chiefly represented by a physical body with biological functions can be stopped in this manner in theory. However something like the void which is less of a person and more of a dimension cannot be via speed steal. Flash would have to take him in a physical fight. Void really needs a character that can energy manip to fight him or be like superman and be able to sing him to death via a counterwave. Don't call bull people he's done it before. If superman sung a counterwave to Void there is nothing he could do about it :P

753
Yes, that was one of comics' greatest moments ever. The day Superman sang Darkseid to death.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Like 90% of him is some form of psionic tentacles and not a physical body?

Where did you get that number from?

He has a physical body. He's shown physical damage from all kinds of things before regenerating. If he didn't possess a physical form, stuff like repulsor rays, shield tosses, hammer blows, and helicarriers exploding wouldn't have effected him. I don't even see how anyone can try to claim the Void wasn't a physical entity, albeit a powerful one.

He's not shown anything close to suggest him being immune or able to resist/counter having his speed/kinetic force stolen. Being broken apart at the molecular level and coming back doesn't suggest resisting that avenue of attack, either.

SasuOna
LOL Molecule Man vs the Void time

TricksterPriest
That showing has been ruled PIS. Not to mention Void or Sentry has never shown that kind of power since or before.

inimalist
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
That showing has been ruled PIS. Not to mention Void or Sentry has never shown that kind of power since or before.

thumb upthumb upthumb up

Black bolt z
Against wally, void wins

against bart, bart wins.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Against wally, void wins

against bart, bart wins. Wally is actually better IMO when he's not dicking around. He pulls far more crazy shenanigans more often than Bart.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Uriel005
Wally is actually better IMO when he's not dicking around. He pulls far more crazy shenanigans more often than Bart. The second one is what leads me to believe bart is faster then wally.
Originally posted by The Nuul
Bart has hurt and blitzed Guardian amped Prime. SBP is scared of Bart.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd202/Genis101/SpeedblitzesSBP2.jpg

Wally says Bart is faster than the rest of the Flashes put together:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/bartfastlightningrod.jpg

Reacts in nanoseconds:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/bartnanosecondreactions.jpg

Uriel005
That was due to a literal phobia when he blitzed prime. Also IMP is hitting like a white dwarf star. It stands to reason that the Flash has one of the most powerful punches in DC if that really is the case.

TricksterPriest
Bart's faster, Wally however is much better at using his powers than Bart.

SquallX
Well Barry's better than both of them. rock

JakeTheBank
Jay's my favorite Flash. Badass old man.

Mindset
Bart > All

the ninjak
Lol at the Flash stealing Void's speed. Void is a Psionic entity expressing itself through raging moleclular particles. One that made Emma and Xavier crap their pants...and that was only an imprint.
Void has no physical body and even if Flash could slow those particles down it could just recreate itself elsewhere. Flash would realise that he would have to give up that tactic quickly/

Nihilist
Void in a stomp.

bbrem123
but but...flash cant lose in KMC matches!

iceman24567
But but Void cant die unless he wants to no expression

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Where did you get that number from?

He has a physical body. He's shown physical damage from all kinds of things before regenerating. If he didn't possess a physical form, stuff like repulsor rays, shield tosses, hammer blows, and helicarriers exploding wouldn't have effected him. I don't even see how anyone can try to claim the Void wasn't a physical entity, albeit a powerful one.

He's not shown anything close to suggest him being immune or able to resist/counter having his speed/kinetic force stolen. Being broken apart at the molecular level and coming back doesn't suggest resisting that avenue of attack, either.

Observation? Parts of him were stretching above Asgard. If Flash steels kinetic energy from the physical body of Void, then we have a stationary physical body... and a host of completely unhindered psionic energy tentacles free to do whatever.

SasuOna
If you are moving then you still have kinetic energy that being absent means that you can't do anything since you aren't building up any potential energy. Energy is never absent so whatever reasoning your trying to use to say that faux psionic energy is void of that is pretty dumb.

Flash's have been turned into pure photons before and reformed thats the level of their energy manipulation.

I don't think anyone on this forum would say something stupid like KC Flash would lose to Void because he doesn't have a physical body(which isn't true).

Nihilist
Originally posted by bbrem123
but but...flash cant lose in KMC matches! laughing out loud sad but true, in reality Flash has nothing to hurt Void with, hell Loki using the norn stones against him was a flee.

Mindset
Originally posted by SasuOna

I don't think anyone on this forum would say something stupid like KC Flash would lose to Void because he doesn't have a physical body(which isn't true). Regular Flash has better feats than KC Flash, so...

leonidas
the whole idea that flash could freeze someone like, say, odin, is pretty ridiclous to me. it presupposes that flash's control over energy>odin's or whoever he is going against. i personally doubt he could steal ss's speed. were the battle in the dc universe, (where SF is recognized as being greater than.... pretty much everything else in dc apparently) i could see him doing a lot more of what everyone claims he can do, but, in a neutral universe where BOTH powersets are active at their peaks, there is no reason to suppose the SF would win out over other forms of manifested energies--ie, power cosmic, etc....

not sure exactly what level of energy control void has, but if he's a high level energy manipulator, and he has molecular control over his own body, i see no reason to believe he couldn't combat or eventually overcome flash's own control of kinetic energy, so long as this takes place in a neutral universe. erm

Naija boy
Originally posted by leonidas
the whole idea that flash could freeze someone like, say, odin, is pretty ridiclous to me. it presupposes that flash's control over energy>odin's or whoever he is going against. i personally doubt he could steal ss's speed. were the battle in the dc universe, (where SF is recognized as being greater than.... pretty much everything else in dc apparently) i could see him doing a lot more of what everyone claims he can do, but, in a neutral universe where BOTH powersets are active at their peaks, there is no reason to suppose the SF would win out over other forms of manifested energies--ie, power cosmic, etc....

not sure exactly what level of energy control void has, but if he's a high level energy manipulator, and he has molecular control over his own body, i see no reason to believe he couldn't combat or eventually overcome flash's own control of kinetic energy, so long as this takes place in a neutral universe. erm

Hmm its like you are in my head. thumb up.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by SasuOna
If you are moving then you still have kinetic energy that being absent means that you can't do anything since you aren't building up any potential energy. Energy is never absent so whatever reasoning your trying to use to say that faux psionic energy is void of that is pretty dumb.

Flash's have been turned into pure photons before and reformed thats the level of their energy manipulation.

I don't think anyone on this forum would say something stupid like KC Flash would lose to Void because he doesn't have a physical body(which isn't true).

It's not a real form of energy on the EM spectrum, we would be remiss to assume that it functions the same as existing forms of radiation. It's like arguing Flash could stop a telepathic assault by stealing the kinetic energy... a stretch.

Flash didn't turn into photons because of energy manipulation, he turned into energy because he was going so fast that the laws of physics did it for him. He made a 300 light year trip in the span of a few panels or some such jazz.

Mindset
Originally posted by leonidas
the whole idea that flash could freeze someone like, say, odin, is pretty ridiclous to me. it presupposes that flash's control over energy>odin's or whoever he is going against. i personally doubt he could steal ss's speed. were the battle in the dc universe, (where SF is recognized as being greater than.... pretty much everything else in dc apparently) i could see him doing a lot more of what everyone claims he can do, but, in a neutral universe where BOTH powersets are active at their peaks, there is no reason to suppose the SF would win out over other forms of manifested energies--ie, power cosmic, etc....

not sure exactly what level of energy control void has, but if he's a high level energy manipulator, and he has molecular control over his own body, i see no reason to believe he couldn't combat or eventually overcome flash's own control of kinetic energy, so long as this takes place in a neutral universe. erm Originally posted by Naija boy
Hmm its like you are in my head. thumb up.

Uriel005
Originally posted by leonidas
the whole idea that flash could freeze someone like, say, odin, is pretty ridiclous to me. it presupposes that flash's control over energy>odin's or whoever he is going against. i personally doubt he could steal ss's speed. were the battle in the dc universe, (where SF is recognized as being greater than.... pretty much everything else in dc apparently) i could see him doing a lot more of what everyone claims he can do, but, in a neutral universe where BOTH powersets are active at their peaks, there is no reason to suppose the SF would win out over other forms of manifested energies--ie, power cosmic, etc....

not sure exactly what level of energy control void has, but if he's a high level energy manipulator, and he has molecular control over his own body, i see no reason to believe he couldn't combat or eventually overcome flash's own control of kinetic energy, so long as this takes place in a neutral universe. erm Problem is Speedforce is basically god over motion. If it moves the speedforce can make it not do so. PIS off CIS off there is no real defense for physical based characters to stop it.

SamZED
But Void is not all that physical tbh. His tentacles were shown phasing though stuff and it was said that they attack one's soul rather than body. And once Bob's physical body is destroyed that black floating stuff is all that's left. That's pretty much what Void is made of..confused

leonidas
Originally posted by Uriel005
Problem is Speedforce is basically god over motion.

in dc.....

Uriel005
Originally posted by leonidas
in dc..... in general... on forum it is assumed that powers are going to work under their normal premises.

Simbon
Originally posted by Uriel005
Problem is Speedforce is basically god over motion. If it moves the speedforce can make it not do so. PIS off CIS off there is no real defense for physical based characters to stop it.

So, Flash > PC Validus, Galactus, COIE anti-monitor, etc. etc.

http://img131.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=d4b52_kahndc7.jpg#

Where does that put Black Adam?

Uriel005
Originally posted by Simbon
So, Flash > PC Validus, Galactus, COIE anti-monitor, etc. etc.

http://img131.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=d4b52_kahndc7.jpg#

Where does that put Black Adam? .... First of all your problem off the bat is that is Jay. While a beast in his youth he is no longer in his hay-day. Two it's called comics. It's the reason why Superman hasn't punched Lex Luthor's head off. There would be no story if Flash utilized the capabilities of the speed force to the fullest extent. Here's how the story would read.
1)Villain with a body comes a long.
2) Flash sees problem.
3) Speed Steal.
4)???? Whatever needs to be done to deal with nemesis while he's frozen in place
5) Win

or for those not ridiculously powerful opponents that need a speed steal to be defeated

1) Villain comes
2)Flash Comes
3) IMP repeatedly to the head a trillion times in a second/Vibrates important body parts or circuits out of the body.
4) Villains head/body implodes
5) Day is saved.
However in a comic forum seeing as he fights to the best of his potential without going outside of morals he probably would abuse speed steal. It's a non-lethal method of stopping just about anything.

Sirius77
Flash.

leonidas
Originally posted by Uriel005
in general... on forum it is assumed that powers are going to work under their normal premises.

exactly. i said nothing to the contrary. just that in a neutral universe, there is no reason to presuppose SF>PC or any other engery types.

-Pr-
Originally posted by leonidas
the whole idea that flash could freeze someone like, say, odin, is pretty ridiclous to me. it presupposes that flash's control over energy>odin's or whoever he is going against. i personally doubt he could steal ss's speed. were the battle in the dc universe, (where SF is recognized as being greater than.... pretty much everything else in dc apparently) i could see him doing a lot more of what everyone claims he can do, but, in a neutral universe where BOTH powersets are active at their peaks, there is no reason to suppose the SF would win out over other forms of manifested energies--ie, power cosmic, etc....

not sure exactly what level of energy control void has, but if he's a high level energy manipulator, and he has molecular control over his own body, i see no reason to believe he couldn't combat or eventually overcome flash's own control of kinetic energy, so long as this takes place in a neutral universe. erm

Against someone like Void or Odin, sure, you could make that argument.

Against standard heralds, though, I see no reason why the Speed Force would be somehow lacking when it has to exist for Flashes to be able to use their powers in the first place.

Uriel005
Originally posted by -Pr-
Against someone like Void or Odin, sure, you could make that argument.

Against standard heralds, though, I see no reason why the Speed Force would be somehow lacking when it has to exist for Flashes to be able to use their powers in the first place. Honestly I don't think so at all. The speedforce for all intents and purposes is the ultimate authority on motion. I think it is the most broken force in the universe if a munchkin character were to tap it to it's fullest extent. Honestly I would love for someone to resist a speed steal but as of this point the Speedforce's ability to speedsteal has 0% chance of failure. I know that no-limits fallacy says that it needs a limit but as of yet I really haven't seen one that would be reasonable because looking at the speedforce in its entirety basically puts the speedforce at near abstract when kinetic energy is concerned. IMO this makes Flash have one of the greatest potentials to be completely and utterly broken in comics if he were to ever go all out on the universe.

Tha C-Master
Broken like Magic?

Uriel005
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Broken like Magic? more so. Dr Strange running a full channel on true zom would be like... "WHY I NO MOVE!!!!"

-Pr-
Originally posted by Uriel005
Honestly I don't think so at all. The speedforce for all intents and purposes is the ultimate authority on motion. I think it is the most broken force in the universe if a munchkin character were to tap it to it's fullest extent. Honestly I would love for someone to resist a speed steal but as of this point the Speedforce's ability to speedsteal has 0% chance of failure. I know that no-limits fallacy says that it needs a limit but as of yet I really haven't seen one that would be reasonable because looking at the speedforce in its entirety basically puts the speedforce at near abstract when kinetic energy is concerned. IMO this makes Flash have one of the greatest potentials to be completely and utterly broken in comics if he were to ever go all out on the universe.

Okay, so let's say we go down this route.

Do you think the Power Cosmic should be allowed completely, in every extension of it's power?

the ninjak

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Uriel005
more so. Dr Strange running a full channel on true zom would be like... "WHY I NO MOVE!!!!" Because of the reaction time. What about reality manip?

Uriel005
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Because of the reaction time. What about reality manip? still requires conscious thought which doesn't happen if he isn't free in his astral form and his neurons aren't doing anything.

Tha C-Master
I agree to an extent, of course once you get to a certain level it's just too much power. Mad Jim Jaspers or Mxy for example.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I agree to an extent, of course once you get to a certain level it's just too much power. Mad Jim Jaspers or Mxy for example. Mxy Flash has no chance against. Imps aren't so much physical as they are ideas by how 3d beings understand them. MJJ still requires conscious thought to trigger his effects and no prep Flash would stop his thought process before he thought to give himself immunity to speed steal. It really is one of the most utterly broken abilities I've seen but based on how it works the potential retard level brokeness still stands.

Naija boy
lol, this is just getting ridiculous. The arguments in this thread are so fallocious its not even funny anymore. *facepalm*

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
lol, this is just getting ridiculous. The arguments in this thread are so fallocious its not even funny anymore. *facepalm* you're just ignorant of the speedforce!!! eek!

Tha C-Master
He truly is. shiftyOriginally posted by Uriel005
Mxy Flash has no chance against. Imps aren't so much physical as they are ideas by how 3d beings understand them. MJJ still requires conscious thought to trigger his effects and no prep Flash would stop his thought process before he thought to give himself immunity to speed steal. It really is one of the most utterly broken abilities I've seen but based on how it works the potential retard level brokeness still stands. So you think he beats MJJ?

leonidas
Originally posted by -Pr-
Against someone like Void or Odin, sure, you could make that argument.

Against standard heralds, though, I see no reason why the Speed Force would be somehow lacking when it has to exist for Flashes to be able to use their powers in the first place.

PC needs to exist for ss to use HIS powers in the first place as well. erm

and not 'lacking'. i think the SF COULD be used to rob characters of speed, neural activity, etc.... but, instead of it being 'an auto-win' like many seem to believe, i think flash should be required to prove his mastery of SF>the mastery of energy that his opponent has.

ie--could flash steal ss's speed? maybe. but it would require proof that flash is a greater energy manipulator than ss, like any other forum fight. he would be every bit as FAST in a forum fight, just that it would require proof of his energy manip to STEAL speed or use SF energy against someone. i simply don't think that SF should AUTOMATICALLY trump something like power cosmic in a forum fight (or the odinforce, or the power primoridal, or magic, or the quantum force of someone like quasar, or mar-vell's negaband energy, or the force of a gem, etc....) simply BECAUSE it is the speedforce. we've seen it doesn't even WORK in marvel. so to state that it can automatically override any of the various enrgies in marvel simply because it seems to do so in dc? meh, doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas
PC needs to exist for ss to use HIS powers in the first place as well. erm

and not 'lacking'. i think the SF COULD be used to rob characters of speed, neural activity, etc.... but, instead of it being 'an auto-win' like many seem to believe, i think flash should be required to prove his mastery of SF>the mastery of energy that his opponent has.

ie--could flash steal ss's speed? maybe. but it would require proof that flash is a greater energy manipulator than ss, like any other forum fight. he would be every bit as FAST in a forum fight, just that it would require proof of his energy manip to STEAL speed or use SF energy against someone. i simply don't think that SF should AUTOMATICALLY trump something like power cosmic in a forum fight (or the odinforce, or the power primoridal, or magic, or the quantum force of someone like quasar, or mar-vell's negaband energy, or the force of a gem, etc....) simply BECAUSE it is the speedforce. we've seen it doesn't even WORK in marvel. so to state that it can automatically override any of the various enrgies in marvel simply because it seems to do so in dc? meh, doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. leo, do you not realize that 1 second can literally be weeks for Flash using speedforce?

SasuOna
1 second to the flash is 31 and a half years to him when actually using his powers casually.

Starscream M
Originally posted by SasuOna
1 second to the flash is 31 and a half years to him when actually using his powers casually. well, I was going with a more conservative estimate

leonidas
Originally posted by Starscream M
leo, do you not realize that 1 second can literally be weeks for Flash using speedforce?

sure. same can be said for ss though. but your point has no bearing on whether he can steal ss's speed. relativity doesn't have a hand in that argument. only his ability to control SF energy does. ss is also an UBER energy manipulator. why should flash's SF control override ss's own energy control?

-Pr-
Originally posted by leonidas
PC needs to exist for ss to use HIS powers in the first place as well. erm

and not 'lacking'. i think the SF COULD be used to rob characters of speed, neural activity, etc.... but, instead of it being 'an auto-win' like many seem to believe, i think flash should be required to prove his mastery of SF>the mastery of energy that his opponent has.

ie--could flash steal ss's speed? maybe. but it would require proof that flash is a greater energy manipulator than ss, like any other forum fight. he would be every bit as FAST in a forum fight, just that it would require proof of his energy manip to STEAL speed or use SF energy against someone. i simply don't think that SF should AUTOMATICALLY trump something like power cosmic in a forum fight (or the odinforce, or the power primoridal, or magic, or the quantum force of someone like quasar, or mar-vell's negaband energy, or the force of a gem, etc....) simply BECAUSE it is the speedforce. we've seen it doesn't even WORK in marvel. so to state that it can automatically override any of the various enrgies in marvel simply because it seems to do so in dc? meh, doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

that brings me to this, though:

Originally posted by -Pr-
Okay, so let's say we go down this route.

Do you think the Power Cosmic should be allowed completely, in every extension of it's power?

753
Originally posted by Uriel005
still requires conscious thought which doesn't happen if he isn't free in his astral form and his neurons aren't doing anything. so scarlet witch and legion would go won? I find this absurd. their powers should shield them by themselves. people like molecule man, legion, sw and even the void have shown that their bodies are expressions of their powers, not the othe way arround.

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas
sure. same can be said for ss though. really? when has SS stretched a second into days or weeks? (ie, doing various things in a span of seconds aside from hyperspace travel)

Uriel005
Originally posted by 753
so scarlet witch and legion would go won? I find this absurd. their powers should shield them by themselves. people like molecule man, legion, sw and even the void have shown that their bodies are expressions of their powers, not the othe way arround. I always took it like astral projection. Until you are actually projected you are dependent on the body.

leonidas
Originally posted by -Pr-
that brings me to this, though:

sure i think it should be allowed. like any power should be allowed. but, if flash wants to steal power, he needs to prove his level of manipulation like anyone else has to. he can IMP, attack at his nano-second speeds. i'm talking about purely his speed stealing powers. his actove use of SF offensively to override someone else's powers. if someone is a greater engery wielder, or more adept, i don't see why they couldn't simply combat flash's attempts at offensive SF use.

leonidas
Originally posted by Starscream M
really? when has SS stretched a second into days or weeks? (ie, doing various things in a span of seconds aside from hyperspace travel)

anytime he uses ftl speeds it presupposes time is dilated. to perceive something moving at ftl speeds automatically assumes all relativistic effects. least imo. i've argued the same thing--successfully--in tournaments.

Uriel005
Originally posted by leonidas
anytime he uses ftl speeds it presupposes time is dilated. to perceive something moving at ftl speeds automatically assumes all relativistic effects. least imo. i've argued the same thing--successfully--in tournaments. Leo I think where we are coming into conflict is how we see the speed force. I see it as it's own separate entity from the flash and on it's own separate from the Flash it is a skyfather-abstract entity when it comes to kinetic energy. Flash and other speedsters are just the consciousness that directs it more than anything else IMO. Again I say it's not really the Flash people are fighting against. It's the speedforce itself that they have to get around to defeat Flash and the Speedforce is absolute in power when it comes to kinetic energy. Kind of like Jakeem Thunder on a more specific capability.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
but, if flash wants to steal power, he needs to prove his level of manipulation like anyone else has to. Flash has absorbed the kinetic energy of an entire planet.

Show me Surfer being adept at manipulating kinetic energy on that level, and we can go from there.

leonidas
Originally posted by Uriel005
Leo I think where we are coming into conflict is how we see the speed force. I see it as it's own separate entity from the flash and on it's own separate from the Flash it is a skyfather-abstract entity when it comes to kinetic energy. Flash and other speedsters are just the consciousness that directs it more than anything else IMO. Again I say it's not really the Flash people are fighting against. It's the speedforce itself that they have to get around to defeat Flash and the Speedforce is absolute in power when it comes to kinetic energy. Kind of like Jakeem Thunder on a more specific capability.

i agree, we DO see it differently. i see the SF as i see the quantum zone, for instance. the q-zone is a potentially infinite source of energy. like the negative zone, that the nega-bands focus energy through. however, like those others, it's power--and it's affect on others--is only as great as the wielder itself. while the q-zone is a source of infinite energy, quasar himself cannot direct or utilize the 'infinite nature' of the q-zone.

the SF may be a source of infinite energy. and that's fine. that does NOT necessarily mean flash can USE all that energy, or that an energy wielder of equal, or greater competency, can't stop his attempts at controlling said individual's own energy control.

Uriel005
Originally posted by leonidas
i agree, we DO see it differently. i see the SF as i see the quantum zone, for instance. the q-zone is a potentially infinite source of energy. like the negative zone, that the nega-bands focus energy through. however, like those others, it's power--and it's affect on others--is only as great as the wielder itself. while the q-zone is a source of infinite energy, quasar himself cannot direct or utilize the 'infinite nature' of the q-zone.

the SF may be a source of infinite energy. and that's fine. that does NOT necessarily mean flash can USE all that energy, or that an energy wielder of equal, or greater competency, can't stop his attempts at controlling said individual's own energy control. Bart could when he became the speed force. Also Wally has shown greater competency than any other Flash when it comes to speedforce shenanigans.

quanchi112
Void, easily.

wildernesss
isn't sentry/void's "speed" based on time dilation as shown in the original mini? would this not significantly alter the extent to which flash could steal void's "speed" or incapacitate him? void's infini tendrils are described as showing scary images of the past present and future. this also seems to suggest some sort of time based component to an essentially uber matter manipulator and telepathy monster who can endlessly reform if it wills it. wouldn't that eventually wear flash down at some point?

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