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Round 1: h2h

Round 2: standard equipment permitted.

Fight takes place inside an moving subway train.

KP gets his cane in round 2?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
KP gets his cane in round 2?

Sure.

Then I'd say Fist takes the majority in both.

When they first fought Cap was surprised by how fast Kingpin is for his size. I don't think it would go down the same way.

Cap 7/10

Classic Kingpin 7/10 in 1.

Cap 6/10 in 2.

Todays Steve Rogers isnt the same man that Fisk fought decades ago, classic Kingpin is a beast, but he's not better than todays Steve Rogers, who is better faster harder stronger than he was 20 irl years ago.

Rogers rolls Fisk.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Todays Steve Rogers isnt the same man that Fisk fought decades ago, classic Kingpin is a beast, but he's not better than todays Steve Rogers, who is better faster harder stronger than he was 20 irl years ago.

Rogers rolls Fisk.
Classic KP was also above Class 10 Spider-Man though.

If this is Classic Fisk, who seemed to be class 10 then Wilson wins both scenarios. He would overpower Steve

Yeah but that Spiderman was younger and no where near his real class 10 of now a days of throwing cars like nothing. Those were more like Aunt May max moments from back then and lets face it. Young Spiderman would hold back severely against KP and was never in his aunt may modes against him.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Todays Steve Rogers isnt the same man that Fisk fought decades ago, classic Kingpin is a beast, but he's not better than todays Steve Rogers, who is better faster harder stronger than he was 20 irl years ago.

Rogers rolls Fisk.

I have an idea of what you're saying. In the first issue of Avengers Prime, he single handily clear an entire room full of dark elf warriors. He also recently beat down two or three men juiced up on the Super Solider Serum with the serum deactivated within himself. Pretty badass if you ask me.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Yeah but that Spiderman was younger and no where near his real class 10 of now a days of throwing cars like nothing. Those were more like Aunt May max moments from back then and lets face it. Young Spiderman would hold back severely against KP and was never in his aunt may modes against him.

Fair enough, but in Spiderman's thought bubbles, during those fights, he was clearly of the view that KP was a real match for him-and Pete would've been at least 5-7 tons strength then.

Originally posted by BUSTER1
If this is Classic Fisk, who seemed to be class 10 then Wilson wins both scenarios. He would overpower Steve

Steve did good holding his own against Beast and Iceman at the same time before going down from a sneak attack. Fisk may not get the chance to use that strength, same as Beast.

But if Fisk did, it could be bad. But only if Steve doesn't have his shield. I understand where you're coming from.
I would say Steve's best chance is in round 2.

Originally posted by BUSTER1
Fair enough, but in Spiderman's thought bubbles, during those fights, he was clearly of the view that KP was a real match for him-and Pete would've been at least 5-7 tons strength then.

Your right for the then part. As there later current bout retcons that he always held back due to fear.

5-7 would be a threat but nothing new that Cap hasn't faced. It was more the speed that surprised him initially. I don't think KP could pull it off again.

On a train Kingpin takes this in both. It comes down to the Captain America not being able to use his mobility and the fact that all KP has to do is walk down the aisle and Cap will be trapped.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Classic KP was also above Class 10 Spider-Man though.

15 year old pete can't fight, not even a lick, notice how Cap takes down people way above his weight class? Thats what Fisk did to pete. pete had all the tools, but not the experience or the ability, Fisk had the ability and the experience..Pete got ownd.

ALTHOUGH - i'll throw the "holding back" card out here rather than take at face value a scan of KP holding Pete immobilized, when in the previous page, we just saw pete throw a couple of cars

Cap wins Bucky or Steve.

CA 10/10 in both

KP against Spidey was PIS. Kingpin doesn't have superhuman strength. He just has peak human strength.

Spidey at his highest showed class 100 strength. Spidey at his worst showed class 1 strength (struggling to lift a decent sized car). Thus King Pin matching Spidey means PIS (on Spidey's part).

Originally posted by h1a8
CA 10/10 in both

KP against Spidey was PIS. Kingpin doesn't have superhuman strength. He just has peak human strength.

Spidey at his highest showed class 100 strength. Spidey at his worst showed class 1 strength (struggling to lift a decent sized car). Thus King Pin matching Spidey means PIS (on Spidey's part).

At the time when young Spiderman fought Classic KP, Parker's power level wasn't clearly defined-but he already had class 10 feats under his belt. Classic KP, at the time, was clearly Pete's equal.

I stand by my earlier post-Classic KP wins. Curent Fisk would get destroyed.

Originally posted by BUSTER1
At the time when young Spiderman fought Classic KP, Parker's power level wasn't clearly defined-but he already had class 10 feats under his belt. Classic KP, at the time, was clearly Pete's equal.

I stand by my earlier post-Classic KP wins. Curent Fisk would get destroyed.

But CA is stronger, faster, and far more skilled than Classic Kingpin. Plus CA has a shield you know.
CA is pareto optimal over him. So how can he even win 1 fight against CA?

Hey. Guys. Check Kingpin's respect thread. He's already GOT a win on Cap. Granted, Steve is a better fighter, but he did get rocked once.

Originally posted by h1a8
But CA is stronger, faster, and far more skilled than Classic Kingpin. Plus CA has a shield you know.
CA is pareto optimal over him. So how can he even win 1 fight against CA?

Kingpin is considered peak human now, but until at least the late 80's, he was shown as having superhuman strength - at least 3 tons worth. There was no real explanation (he's not a mutant or anything), he's was just freakishly strong.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hey. Guys. Check Kingpin's respect thread. He's already GOT a win on Cap. Granted, Steve is a better fighter, but he did get rocked once.

It's not the same Steve anymore.

Originally posted by Juk3n
15 year old pete can't fight, not even a lick, notice how Cap takes down people way above his weight class? Thats what Fisk did to pete. pete had all the tools, but not the experience or the ability, Fisk had the ability and the experience..Pete got ownd.

ALTHOUGH - i'll throw the "holding back" card out here rather than take at face value a scan of KP holding Pete immobilized, when in the previous page, we just saw pete throw a couple of cars

Cap wins Bucky or Steve.

He wasn't 15 years old. I'd say he was >20, easily.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He wasn't 15 years old. I'd say he was >20, easily.

Age matters not, he was still a boy, not a man!

Originally posted by Juk3n
Age matters not, he was still a boy, not a man!

He will never be a man

Standard equipment means that Kingpin has gas in the second fight. Could be dangerous to Cap in the train.

Classic Kingpin got dethroned by Daredevil. KP still had his phenomenal strength then. Cap 7/10

I don't recall him using gas as the standard in his fights with Spidey, Daredevil, Cap or Red Skull so that's seems out of the standard.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Classic KP was also above Class 10 Spider-Man though.
That not true actually, though misconception. In fact I believe marvel them selfs have explained it in interviews if not mistaken. It less that KP classic level was class 10, but more in the fact that spiderman strength was not defined. He was not a 10 tonner consistently at the time or close to it. He was superhuman, but they had yet to define what that ment. Also parker held back against him even at those levels. It not as impressive as you would think, it just seems that way based off the fact we know how strong spidy is now. Thats haft the reason KP no longer his rogue, becuase once spidy strength was defined, there was really no logical reason for KP to be any threat to him.

Steve Rogers 7/10.

I go with classic KP.

1. Steve Rogers
2. Wilson Fisk

Kingpin

Originally posted by Juk3n
15 year old pete can't fight, not even a lick, notice how Cap takes down people way above his weight class? Thats what Fisk did to pete. pete had all the tools, but not the experience or the ability, Fisk had the ability and the experience..Pete got ownd.


As pointed out, Fisk not only beat Cap, but Red Skill as well. And he literally yawned off pressure point strikes, and even shrugged off having his insteps stomped on defeating the latter.

I agree with your points about Spidey, but anyone who can tear apart a metal scaffolding with his bare hands is far from peak human (Seriously, how strong would you need to be to tear steel beams apart with your bare hands and lift the pile of metal up, while Spidey's clinging to it?)

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Classic Kingpin got dethroned by Daredevil. KP still had his phenomenal strength then. Cap 7/10

I don't recall him using gas as the standard in his fights with Spidey, Daredevil, Cap or Red Skull so that's seems out of the standard. dd never beat fisk in a fight once until after frank millers entire run.

classic kp had a lapel with acid and a knockout gas cane that he doesnt use anymore.

anyways

1.) kp
2.) kp

also: spidey's first fight with fisk was after years of fighting thugs and super villians. as stiltman said, he was already in college

Idk... I still feel Kingpin can't take Steve. Steve has a lot of feats under his belt against opponents who out class Fisk in every way.

Kingpin's got plenty of feats as well. imo bearhug gives him 6/10.

Originally posted by h1a8
CA 10/10 in both

KP against Spidey was PIS. Kingpin doesn't have superhuman strength. He just has peak human strength.

Spidey at his highest showed class 100 strength. Spidey at his worst showed class 1 strength (struggling to lift a decent sized car). Thus King Pin matching Spidey means PIS (on Spidey's part).



i call PIS on fisk even being a challenge to SM
he had no super powers wth, no idea why he could hang with pete
realistically a fight between the two would be like evan's (captain america) vs Bale's (batman)

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
That not true actually, though misconception. In fact I believe marvel them selfs have explained it in interviews if not mistaken. It less that KP classic level was class 10, but more in the fact that spiderman strength was not defined. He was not a 10 tonner consistently at the time or close to it. He was superhuman, but they had yet to define what that ment. Also parker held back against him even at those levels. It not as impressive as you would think, it just seems that way based off the fact we know how strong spidy is now. Thats haft the reason KP no longer his rogue, becuase once spidy strength was defined, there was really no logical reason for KP to be any threat to him.

what a real punch from peter would do :

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/ankur2113/WhatIf-BackinBlack024.jpg

Steve wins an slight majority in both. Bucky loses in h2h unless he gets his murder intent, in which case he just murders Kingpin. In a non h2h combat Bucky just guns him down.

Originally posted by ankur29


i call PIS on fisk even being a challenge to SM
he had no super powers wth, no idea why he could hang with pete
realistically a fight between the two would be like evan's (captain america) vs Bale's (batman)

Spidey's strength was ill defined, and he holds back. But Kingpin also held his own briefly with Silvermane, who's class 10. The writer even had The Answer comment on how incredible the feat was.

Fisk still has more then enough feats to put him above peak human level, strength wise, in the same way Cassandra Cain is only theoretically street level, but her feats put her comfortably above it.

Originally posted by Bentley
Steve wins an slight majority in both. Bucky loses in h2h unless he gets his murder intent, in which case he just murders Kingpin. In a non h2h combat Bucky just guns him down.

Can a normal human do this?

http://g.imagehost.org/view/0498/Spiderwoman_v1_46-12

Moves a beam that weights a ton, with one arm.

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2595/842nv7.jpg

Yanks up a rug weighed down by furniture like it's nothing.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/7509/1645ba2.jpg

Snaps solid steel beams with his bare hands, and picks up the mass of metal with Spidey on it.

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/4008/1635ra3.jpg

Pushed Spidey right through a cement wall.

Yeah, Classic KP was a beast.

Here's his fight with Red Skull:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3057/34764991wu2.th.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4254/18647220xx4.th.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1958/60692133ya7.th.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1905/65488967oz8.th.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6503/58406357xu2.th.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8590/79314089fa6.th.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6682/65871407qk1.th.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6758/17299533yd6.th.jpg

Shrugs off pressure point attacks, and clearly physically dominates.

Here's a fight with Daredevil:

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5281/daredevil17115dq4.th.jpghttp://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7359/daredevil17116fo4.th.jpg

Actually wore himself out beating on his head with a nightstick.

And finally, here's a fight with Cap himself:

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/4136/kpvc018mf.th.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8701/kpvc02js5.th.jpg

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9385/kpvc03tg6.th.jpg

It's no fluke, classic Fisk was regularly portrayed above peak human.

^ Cap is also above peak human. Not Batman, Nightwing, Daredevil, or Fisk is gonna descend 20 stories high from an air craft to the ground unassisted; no injury or sign of pain. These are things Cap, James and Slade do and have more than once; if not from an air craft, they have from and out of buildings (20 stories and higher). I'm glad writers with common sense saw that Fist goin toe to toe with Spidey physically goes against common sense.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
^ Cap is also above peak human. Not Batman, Nightwing, Daredevil, or Fisk is gonna descend 20 stories high from an air craft to the ground unassisted; no injury or sign of pain.

Fisk probably can, considering he's also had buildings collapse on him before and walked away (That he himself caused to collapse by breaking support beams)

Originally posted by Marvelknight
^ Cap is also above peak human. Not Batman, Nightwing, Daredevil, or Fisk is gonna descend 20 stories high from an air craft to the ground unassisted; no injury or sign of pain.

Cap has many low showings, unlike Classic KP. "Optimum power level" rule means Fisk wins.

Originally posted by cdtm
Here's his fight with Red Skull:
Skull would have done better if he'd fought with pants though.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Cap has many low showings, unlike Classic KP. "Optimum power level" rule means Fisk wins.

So it's just physical strength we're going by or overall skill along with their abilities? Hasn't Cap had his moments against Spidey along with others class 10 and above? If this is Cap at his best, Fisk has the fight of his life right now, and could lose...

Cap at his best destroys Fisk.

not sure about destroys, but i really don't see how fisk represents anything new at all. cap has fought and beaten FAR stronger and far bigger. he's fought and beat guys more skilled, and literally hundreds of guys with legit (and some uber) superpowers. fisk would be tough, and could take some, but i can't see him taking cap for a majority in any way.