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Here's the deal, every Sith and Jedi that ever existed has landed on the plains of Naboo, they are locked in battle and may use their fleets, armies, force powers (except for the Thought Bomb and the Exar Kun Amulet or Nihilus's Drain) and lightsabers as they wish.

So here are the statistics

Jedi - All Jedi that have ever existed

Jedi Fleet/Army - 800 Million

Sith - All Sith that have ever existed

Sith Fleet/Army - 800 Million

All unit types are used.

ENJOY

Well **** that.

Palpatine throws a Death Star at Naboo and everybody scrambles to evacuate and attack it. He then sneaks around the system with the Sun Crusher and finishes them all.


Palpatine wins. And only Palpatine wins.

how about Bane drops a moon on em?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Palpatine throws a Death Star at Naboo and everybody scrambles to evacuate and attack it. He then sneaks around the system with the Sun Crusher and finishes them all.


Palpatine wins. And only Palpatine wins.



But I must take issue: Palpatine hasn't demonstrated telekinesis powerful enough to hurl the Death Star. That aside, good post.

He's the Emperor, he definitely has some remote command he can use to make go somewhere.

I'd think Jedi would curbstomp. There were several stretches where the Jedi were largely unopposed for thousands of years, while most Sith Empires lasted maybe hundreds, and even then normally contested by Jedi.

In sheer numbers, the Jedi have a longer history, and more numbers per era (exception being KotOR, New Sith Wars, Legacy--and maaaybe TOR). For some reason I've always liked Dorak's line from KotOR: "Eventually the Sith will overwhelm us with sheer numbers." Even a Jedi Master realizes that a 100:1 ratio is just too much, even for "tEh Force!"

I'd vote Sith personally. The usual trend is that especially BA Force users fall to the dark side, littering certain eras with one Big Bad and tons of Little Goons. Sith have no rules of engagement, and while they couldn't be relied upon to work in concert very well (the assumption here is that no politics or power grabs come into play, just a straight melee), they are more offense-based in nature and they love to use their fodder towards their advantage.

Example: Sith send their fodder in on suicide runs, or have them hold the line well beyond reason. Jedi, being morally driven, would lose a bit of themselves if they tried to compete in the same manner. No Sith lords would object to say, having their fleet crash into the enemy just for a one-up.

Second point - Sith Lords tend to be more uber than most Jedi. Sith Lords like Dooku, Exar Kun, Revan, Naga Sadow, Sidious, etc. are worth shittons of Jedi. Exar Kun himself brings up a good point - he could just waltz in anywhere and no Jedi could touch him. Beings like Sion could ambush Jedi and were specifically trained to assassinate them. Other sentients like Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow were reputed to be great magicians. Sadow alone could pump out illusions across multiple planets, and Ragnos is assumed to be powerful enough to destroy Luke's academy by himself, based on Luke's own fear of his return.

Assuming Darth Revan is allowed to be a Sith asset and member, he's a military genius head and shoulders above anyone in his era, credited singlehandedly in determining strategy which defeated the mighty Mandolorians. And then there's the martial Sith of Bane's time, who spent much of their time combating Jedi, thus giving them a distinct experience advantage over say, the thousand years worth of Jedi predating the PT who had no practical experience against Dark Siders at all!

IMO, it's skewed because the Dark Side is so powerful. That's the whole point - darkness is the "easy" way out, and thus many dark siders are necessarily more powerful than their light sided Jedi brethren. And some of the great names in history are simply too much for most Jedi, and this is assuming they don't get utterly crushed by some of the larger powers available.

Shhh! Keep it down, someone might hear that logic!



Anyways, Revan pwns them all then eats a cookie. Cuz he can do that stuff.



Also, i agree with the "Crashing a fleet into stuff" thing
The sith also have the though bomb as a last resort
They can burn the part of the planet no problem (with real fire and without actually harming their armies)
And Mace, Yoda, Kenobi, and maybe a couple others are pretty much the only ones who would stand a sh*t chance against the more powerful sith lords.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'd vote Sith personally. The usual trend is that especially BA Force users fall to the dark side, littering certain eras with one Big Bad and tons of Little Goons. Sith have no rules of engagement, and while they couldn't be relied upon to work in concert very well (the assumption here is that no politics or power grabs come into play, just a straight melee), they are more offense-based in nature and they love to use their fodder towards their advantage.

Example: Sith send their fodder in on suicide runs, or have them hold the line well beyond reason. Jedi, being morally driven, would lose a bit of themselves if they tried to compete in the same manner. No Sith lords would object to say, having their fleet crash into the enemy just for a one-up.

Second point - Sith Lords tend to be more uber than most Jedi. Sith Lords like Dooku, Exar Kun, Revan, Naga Sadow, Sidious, etc. are worth shittons of Jedi. Exar Kun himself brings up a good point - he could just waltz in anywhere and no Jedi could touch him. Beings like Sion could ambush Jedi and were specifically trained to assassinate them. Other sentients like Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow were reputed to be great magicians. Sadow alone could pump out illusions across multiple planets, and Ragnos is assumed to be powerful enough to destroy Luke's academy by himself, based on Luke's own fear of his return.

Assuming Darth Revan is allowed to be a Sith asset and member, he's a military genius head and shoulders above anyone in his era, credited singlehandedly in determining strategy which defeated the mighty Mandolorians. And then there's the martial Sith of Bane's time, who spent much of their time combating Jedi, thus giving them a distinct experience advantage over say, the thousand years worth of Jedi predating the PT who had no practical experience against Dark Siders at all!

IMO, it's skewed because the Dark Side is so powerful. That's the whole point - darkness is the "easy" way out, and thus many dark siders are necessarily more powerful than their light sided Jedi brethren. And some of the great names in history are simply too much for most Jedi, and this is assuming they don't get utterly crushed by some of the larger powers available. Of course, if we play the "realistic" card, we can counter the Dark Side's advantage of ruthlessness and and raw power with the Dark Side's disadvantage of ruthlessness and the lust for more raw power. The Dark Jedi and Sith do as they always do: betray each other.

Individually, yes. But we're talking probably thousands of *Masters* for every one of them.


Consider the Rule of Two era, Bane to Palpy- For every single generation RoT Sith that was trained, there was likewise a generation of Jedi trained, upwards of a thousand. In the same time you cross from one Sith to another, you might replace a quarter of the Council with entirely new masters who've reach that level. In the case of long-lived Sith, even more of them. And despite the Dark Side's vaunted power, every time the Sith did clash there's almost always a few members of the Jedi order strong enough to stand against them, your Mace Windus, Obi-Wans, Yodas, and so on.

Luke's academy was small and weak when he was terrified of Ragnos, a splinter of what it'd later become. Would the same hold true when the Jedi could, say, send two entire generation's worth of Jedi orders against him?

Whichever team revan is on, that team would rapestorm

REVAN RODE BRITNEY SPEARS BUTT TO YAVIN 4

Of course, if we play the "realistic" card, we can counter the Dark Side's advantage of ruthlessness and and raw power with the Dark Side's disadvantage of ruthlessness and the lust for more raw power. The Dark Jedi and Sith do as they always do: betray each other.

That's the big "If" here. If personal plays for power are allowed, then it stands to reason that the Sith forces are too fractured to withstand a prolonged battle. Of course, it's just as likely that the Sith are eager to fight for their lives and band together because the alternative means immediate annihilation. They are, after all, already on the battlefield.



Yes, but some of the Sith Lords (not counting the lower ranked ones) were head and shoulders above most Jedi Masters. For example, what's to stop Darth Traya from severing handfuls from the Force at will? Most Jedi pursue peaceful negotiations and morally correct ways of resolving conflict. Toss every Sith in front of them -and- 800 million Sith fodder and it becomes chaos. Considering they're all on the ground, we should question whether or not some enterprising Sith Lord will just have all of the Sith spaceships divebomb the Jedi, gg folks.

Consider the Rule of Two era, Bane to Palpy- For every single generation RoT Sith that was trained, there was likewise a generation of Jedi trained, upwards of a thousand.

Interesting point. Yes, Bane's Rule of Two narrows the Sith numbers down considerably after his reign, but those during Revan's era or prior to Bane were considerable as well, more than the norm. It's presently difficult to say who had more numbers, but I believe tactics and martial training will make or break this argument here. I would compare it to the lesser numbers of the Wehrmacht overcoming say, the entire French army in record timing. In this case, martial ability and strategy matters as much if not more than sheer numbers.



My problem with this reasoning is that it's too vague. Sure, Yoda could "stand" against Dooku or Sidious, but he could not overcome them individually in the original circumstances. Imagine how he would do if tons of Sith fodder were surging forward, or Sadow's illusions were running amok? How would he do if Traya walked up to him and attempted to sever him from the Force, or Bane decides he wants to kick him into orbit?

The idea of everyone lining up and singling each other out like knights on a field of battle is unrealistic. The most reasonable scenario is of the Jedi attempting to defeat the Sith through maneuvering and directly avoiding conflict with Sith elites whenever possible, since they would have to literally dog-pile most of them to have any effect.

Only the most vain and foolish of Sith lords would attempt to tackle dozens of Jedi Masters and Knights without support or an underhanded method of dealing with them. Key example Exar Kun realized when he was overmatched, even though his arrogance is legendary in his own time. Assuming that all Sith Lords are out to stroke their egos in personal combat on a general scale begs for a good argument.

Also important, the Sith have no qualms about who dies in order to achieve victory. Their troops and starships are literally throwaway resources which they can use to hem the Jedi and their allies into unfavorable conditions. Assuming all Jedi were on the ground, mighty Sith Lords could order ships to divebomb the battlefield near the enemy. How many Jedi Masters can stop the descent of large battleships, or many many of them for that matter?

I'll check myself and move to another format to continue:

Sith benefits:

- No battle ethics means no restrictions. This makes them extremely dangerous and perhaps unpredictable to the more methodical and peace-oriented Jedi.

- Their powers are usually more destructive, and some of the Sith Lords are simply untouchable by the majority of Jedi, should they even come into direct contact.

- Army buffs like Sadow's mass illusions can swing the balance and remove advantages of sheer numbers, should the Jedi prove to be more numerous.

- Tactical genius Darth Revan would most likely be the reason why the Sith can outmaneuver the Jedi. A comparable Jedi general may exist, but at the moment I can't think of one.

- Traya eats tons of Jedi Masters with her Force nom.

- Saber legends like Kas-sim, Dooku, Revan, Exar Kun, Ulic, Tulak "OMF" Hord, etc. are fearsome opponents and would most likely destroy most Jedi Knight rank or below, and stalemate or even defeat most Masters while Force kings like DE Sidious, Nihilus and Ragnos start ragdolling folks for the lolz. Really, some of the Sith Lords are just way over the top.


Do I believe that the Jedi have no chance? Of course not. But I think generally, the situation favors the Sith.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

That's the big "If" here. If personal plays for power are allowed, then it stands to reason that the Sith forces are too fractured to withstand a prolonged battle. Of course, it's just as likely that the Sith are eager to fight for their lives and band together because the alternative means immediate annihilation. They are, after all, already on the battlefield.


Well, looking at their history, even in times of hardship the Sith have turned on each other. I mean look at Bane and the BoD. The BoD were fighting for their lives against the Army of Light, and still Kaan thought it was a good idea to send one of his best fighters to kill Bane. Bane tricked Kaan into killing himself and every other Sith on the planet, purely because of some philosophy he possessed.

I don't see the Sith forming an affective fighting force at all. It simply isn't possible for people like Naga Sadow to co-exist with people like Palpatine or Exar Kun.

In the end I see the majority of the Sith reduced to in-fighting while the more rational members like Bane and Revan see the bigger picture and form a truce. Palpatine might join those two, as his manipulative and political nature might override his arrogance.

Regardless, all the Sith who manage to survive the in-fighting simply get overrun by the Jedi who are united from day one.

Obviously, if Mace, Yoda, Kenobi, and some more of the Jedi Greats banded together into a single pocket, it would take a helluva lotta power to kill them. Eventually numbers would tell, or the Sith could use those uber rituals, but I think your downplaying the effect some of those jedi could have.

Exile>Traya, that much has been established. She will also sense her through their bond, if not just murdering 50 sith lords then killing herself to kill Traya, jedi tend to be into sacrifice for others.
Yoda is the "Greatest foe the darkness has ever known" after a VEEEERY long time. Thats no mundane accomplishment, Yoda is the most kick-ass jedi of all time, short of Luke "Force-God" Skywalker.
You are also forgetting the battlemasters, such as Katarn, Drallig, etc. hey are no lightweights when it comes to saber combat, and both have held off powerful dark siders.
Mace and Depa's Vapaad will also play a major role, as with dark siders it makes that superconducting loop, making a Jedi like Mace on par with ROTS Sidious. Mace could take almost any Sith there is, as long as he doesnt give them a chance to use the Force to any major extent.
Luke is obviously going to be able to rape half of them, theres no way any author wouldnt let him do that.
In reality, Luke would be very hard to take down as well.


But it goes back to the Sith just using one ritual to burn the entire planet apart.

Even with immediate danger in the works? Alright, here's my counter to you then: what's to say the overly numerous Jedi order wouldn't be fractioned and unable to form an effective fighting force then?

Agreed, the only way the Sith can deal with there numbers disadvantage and infighting would be something like the Thought Bomb, which they don't have. Otherwise they're either unable to form a cohesive defence and are swarmed or the Jedi form a massive Wall of Light ala Kuns defeat and **** them up.

That is true as well. If that happened, they would have to hope they can hold out long enough to get the Masters with them, or the Masters may be able to fight over to each other.

The jedi may be numerous, but that can work. Quantity in excess beats quality.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even with immediate danger in the works? Alright, here's my counter to you then: what's to say the overly numerous Jedi order wouldn't be fractioned and unable to form an effective fighting force then? The difference between the Jedi and the Sith is that the Jedi have only one goal: Kill the Sith. The Sith, on the other hand, want to kill (or rule) everything, even each other, ergo the Jedi are willing to put their differences aside and focus on that one goal. Even if the Jedi used zero coherency or tactics, just by "attack moving" at the Sith, they would overrun them.

Don't forget that quite a few of the Sith are completely nuts.

10,000 Jedi x 1,000 generations, you get about 10,000,000 Jedi. And no where near that amount of Sith.

Each governing 800 million people? Neither side is going to form an effective fighting force. The logistics behind this for even a single campaign is an absolute nightmare. Not to mention the problems that the time-traveling Force-users are going to have attempting cohesion.

The Sith betray, conspire against, and kill each other no matter what their number or stated goal. They will turn their fleets on one another halfway through. They may have "more POWAH!" but they have lot more problems with stability and leadership. Not to say the Jedi won't, but their's will pale in comparison to the in-fighting Sith.

Jedi stomp. While an individual Sith Lord has typically more power than an individual Jedi, the numbers favor the Jedi far too much. Also I think many people are simply ignoring the top tier Jedi. Sure Exar Kun may be able to cut down several typical masters, but he was overcome by tree man (forgot his name).

I don't understand where this idea that the Jedi will degenerate into infighting has come from. The defining characteristic of the Order, established literally before the meaning of "Sith Lord" was defined was that back in the 70's, the things that Jedi were good at included flying ships and obeying orders. Despite everything, that hasn't changed.

I see the multiple generations of philosophy and teaching conflicting. The Jedi of the Rise of the Empire era are all primarily student's of Yoda's Order. His views and dogma will no doubt clash with the other 24,000 years of teachings, as will they all with each other.

But none if it will be borne of petty jealousy or a desire for more POWAH, like the Sith.

Furthermore, while ethics differ between the various stages of the Jedi Order, they have all shared the same opinion on Sith, which is that they should pretty much just be killed on sight.

Except for the Jedi from before the Second Schism, who have never heard of a Sith Lord.

Luke goes stealth and soloes.

Definately. In his X-Wing, dropping bombs on the imperial palace while hiding in the force and using a force-meld superspeed combo ftw!

first of all sith army >> jedi armys
1.Caedus>Anakin
2.Caedus>ben
3.Caedus<Yoda
4.Exar kun, nihlius, traya, freedon nadd, krayt<<Yoda
5.Yoda<<<<<<<<<<<<<Revan

Yoda would lay one epic ****ing smackdown on Revan's sorry ass.

Fishys, we all know that most Sith Lords are more powerful than the jedi, but look at their mentality.

Unless an extremly charismatic person, (a la Palpatine, Revan, Ragnos, etc.) can bind them together for this fight, then they will degenerate, with the greats taking the high positions, and end up killing the rest of them in self defence, while the greats have a truce going to end the jedi. As well as the fact alot of the greats were in Banes Order, therefore they share a united vision, with Bane at the head, being the creator.


But if they are brought together in a single force, then the jedi will either
A) All die to sabers and random force powers or B) A Sith ritual will thin their numbers by far.

plust they are hopelessly outnumbered....

Again, random ritual, burns the planet?

Thin the ranks with it

Burn the planet? What are the Sith doing kamikaze now?

"random ritual" is completely inadmissable in a vs. forum. Actually no... its now my favorite go-to move.

We'll call it RandRit for short. It'll pwn the Jedi every time.

Why would the Sith employ kamikaze tactics when they have they the numerical inferiority?

No idea. RandRit'ng the planet will kill off a lot of them too, so they won't get anywhere.

Lesse, in Sith, you'd have your Sith from the Old Empires, who are at least familiar with working together with a large force, you've got your Krayt and TOR Sith Emperor, who work with other Sith but in a purely subordinate position to them, you've got your Banites and ones that follow similar philosophy who don't like those setups, and you got your Kaan and his council of equals, whom both Banites and One Sith would look down upon.

I'm guessing politically, Ancient Sith would be in the best position to take charge. Pretty much every group of Sith likes them, and they're used to having multiple powerful Sith Lords who don't try and pretend to be equals and buddies but instead just hold looser alliances.

Alternatively, the whole thing might just explode into a huge Sith civil war as some of the most powerful Sith ever may be unwilling to deal with others who can threaten them in the Sith. Maybe just lock them all in a single big building and see who walks out...


Conversely on the Jedi, I think the later eras would have the best chance of taking charge, most specifically Luke. He's studied prior eras and has a very balanced approach, and can directly speak of what happened to the prior orders. He's both incredibly powerful and has a view on the force that is somewhat in the middle ground of various Jedi views of different era.


Originally posted by ares834
Jedi stomp. While an individual Sith Lord has typically more power than an individual Jedi, the numbers favor the Jedi far too much. Also I think many people are simply ignoring the top tier Jedi. Sure Exar Kun may be able to cut down several typical masters, but he was overcome by tree man (forgot his name).

Yes.

One of the primary advantages of the Sith is that they *only* recruit top-tier force users most of the time and then put all of their training into just that one for decades, but when they do have big orders, the average sith isn't much better than Jedi, only a handful of the higher ups tend to be comparable to the sith from few-sith times, and the Jedi tend to have a few people in the same league too (your Mace Windus, Jedi Exile, Skywalkers, etc.).

Its only a random ritual because I dont know the name of it. The specific ritual Bane used with Kaan and some other Brotherhood Lords to butrn Ruusan. Its an actually verified ritual, it just doesnt have a name.

Originally posted by Pwned
Its only a random ritual because I dont know the name of it. The specific ritual Bane used with Kaan and some other Brotherhood Lords to butrn Ruusan. Its an actually verified ritual, it just doesnt have a name.

You mean the Thought Bomb?

After what happened on Ruusan, finding chumps to go for it would be tricky.

No that wasn't the Thought Bomb. Bane and the Brotherhood used an unnamed ritual to nuke the Jedi on Ruusan, only failing to completely obliterate the planet because Kaan started to get penis envy. That would be a good idea imo, as only the most powerful jedi would survive, ala Zannah, but its equally likely that the Jedi will create a massive Wall of Light to obliterate the Sith like they did to Exar Kun.

Ironically enough both powers manifested as an unstoppable firestorm that annihilated the planets surface. No so different after all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That would be a good idea imo, as only the most powerful jedi would survive, ala Zannah, but its equally likely that the Jedi will create a massive Wall of Light to obliterate the Sith like they did to Exar Kun.

Also I don't think the Sith with many subordinate sith would be too enthusiastic about the idea

it was a force storm.

Well, whatever it was, its entirely feasible.

Where did you get this wall of light thing? I havnt heard of it ever........


Also, Revan probably knew a helluva lotta rituals, some possibly more destructive than the Random-Ritual/Force-Storm thing.

The thought bomb would be a last resort of maybe 1 powerful sith and lesser minions. And only then a smart one.


What about having the fleets pick them up then Palpy making a storm to ravage the planet?

Wall of Light.

'At the culmination of the Great Sith War, Sunrider guided thousands of Jedi, including Tott Doneeta, Sylvar, Oss Wilum, and Thon, in the creation of a wall of light over the Yavin moon to defeat Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun. Although his spirit had been successfully trapped within the walls of his Massassi temple, a planet-wide firestorm caused by the Jedi's magnified power annihilated Yavin 4's landscape in the process.'

Huh. Seems like a good thing.


But if it can stop a Sith Ritual, the Sith can stop it as well.

If this is just an all-out brawl on the one planet, then it's gonna result in M.A.D. No way either side is walking away the victor.

Well, no of course not. They wont stop til the other side is dead, and that will end up with maybe 1-200 survivors, especially since both have ub3r powers, and both have people who can sever others at whim

maybe sever other at a whim. Not sure N can control it the extent that he doesn't also sever all of his own guys...

And to my knowlegde the Jedi have never used the abilty on an opponent who was not already "defeated".

I was thinking Sunrider/Kreia.


I wasnt really counting the N. drain because we arent sure about its collateral (as if he cared) and if he could do it in the middle of combat.


Unless of course he jsut sits in the back and drains the planet, then Sith win hands down.

Well, Nihilus' hands down.

Nihilus eats everyone on both sides, Exiles walker over and takes him down for the win.

Total force-user population of galaxy left: One.

And she's Jedi aligned, so Jedi win!

You guys obviously are not aware of the Emperors Mystical Black Hole Powers(tm). Obviously that will obviously save him from Nihilus' weaksauce Giga-drain and then he will obviously defeat the Exile.

Sith

Originally posted by Nephthys
You guys obviously are not aware of the Emperors Mystical Black Hole Powers(tm). Obviously that will obviously save him from Nihilus' weaksauce Giga-drain and then he will obviously defeat the Exile.

Bah teh exile ise weak sauce...


Really though the Jedi stomp. The numbers are to lopsided. However, I would say Nomi Sunrider cutting Sith off from the force is an invalid tactic as she has never used it in a combat situation.