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They are both given equal bodies.

1: Cap doesn't have his shield

2: Cap does

Fight!

Astro Harness?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Astro Harness? Ummm.

Not in the first scenario, yes in the second.

Cap

Orion

Orion in both. The second is just spite.

Steve in both, he will find a way. Shield > Harness FACT!

Originally posted by Juk3n
Steve in both, he will find a way. Shield > Harness FACT! I'll change to this.

Orion in both.

1. Stalemate
2. Orion

facepalm

Captain America wins in the first one no doubt. If the harness retains actual power, then Orion wins in the second round.

I'm not sure Cap would take Orion in the first one. Orion has insane pain tolerance and he fights very dirty. He's also skilled enough to fight Cap at his level.

Even if their bodies are equal, it's a matter of will and how much they can take.

I could be swayed to Cap winning the first one, it's just as likely as Orion winning.

Now the 2nd one......that's kinda spitey. The AF might not break the shield, but Cap can't take the kind of beating it would dish out, even with the shield.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm not sure Cap would take Orion in the first one. Orion has insane pain tolerance and he fights very dirty. He's also skilled enough to fight Cap at his level.

Even if their bodies are equal, it's a matter of will and how much they can take.

I could be swayed to Cap winning the first one, it's just as likely as Orion winning.

Now the 2nd one......that's kinda spitey. The AF might not break the shield, but Cap can't take the kind of beating it would dish out, even with the shield. the only thing that "finds a way' is trick finding a way for a dc guy to win...even with both characters having the same goddamn body

Even you have to admit I'm right about Orion's pain tolerance.

only if you admit he'd need it *shrug*

Against Cap with equal physical prowess? For sure. I see it coming down to the wire.

cap
orion

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
facepalm

Captain America wins in the first one no doubt. If the harness retains actual power, then Orion wins in the second round.

Agreed.

Steve for both.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm not sure Cap would take Orion in the first one. Orion has insane pain tolerance and he fights very dirty. He's also skilled enough to fight Cap at his level.

Even if their bodies are equal, it's a matter of will and how much they can take.

I could be swayed to Cap winning the first one, it's just as likely as Orion winning.

Now the 2nd one......that's kinda spitey. The AF might not break the shield, but Cap can't take the kind of beating it would dish out, even with the shield.

I agree. Orion took on the greatest MA in the universe.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
facepalm

1.Cap
2.Orion

Doesnt Orion have hundreds of years fighting experience?

Orion for both

^Thor has thousands year combat experience, yet Cap is more skilled.

Cap 1
Orion 2

Plus Cap and his Korvac time loop saga in V3 probably give him more experience then Orion anyways. Plus Cap is just the flat out over all better fighter.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Plus Cap is just the flat out over all better fighter.

Just curious how you got to this conclusion.


@MetalIsDead: Thor is not interchangeable with Orion.


As far as the thread, Orion in both scenerios. Orion knows multiple fighting styles from around the galaxy while Cap knows a few earth-bound styles. He doesn't rely on just his strength like Superman. Orion's whole existence is about fighting. The only way I can see Orion losing the first scenerio is if he over-estimates the ability of his watered down body, per the stips provided, imo.

So having lead... Fought alongside people like gamora... Mantis.. Etc...

Having fought against kree... Shiar... Skrulls... Badoon...

Going to Asgard and fighting against trolls, giants etc...

You think that cap has a problem with versatility?

Originally posted by BerserkersRage
Just curious how you got to this conclusion.


@MetalIsDead: Thor is not interchangeable with Orion.


As far as the thread, Orion in both scenerios. Orion knows multiple fighting styles from around the galaxy while Cap knows a few earth-bound styles. He doesn't rely on just his strength like Superman. Orion's whole existence is about fighting. The only way I can see Orion losing the first scenerio is if he over-estimates the ability of his watered down body, per the stips provided, imo.

yeah, Orion said that he knew warfare from across the universe in Simonson's run. He nearly defeated the greatest MA in the universe, if not for his pacifist state, and is the dog of war. I'll go with the man with the experience.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
yeah, Orion said that he knew warfare from across the universe in Simonson's run. He nearly defeated the greatest MA in the universe, if not for his pacifist state, and is the dog of war. I'll go with the man with the experience.

Originally posted by BerserkersRage
Just curious how you got to this conclusion.


@MetalIsDead: Thor is not interchangeable with Orion.


As far as the thread, Orion in both scenerios. Orion knows multiple fighting styles from around the galaxy while Cap knows a few earth-bound styles. He doesn't rely on just his strength like Superman. Orion's whole existence is about fighting. The only way I can see Orion losing the first scenerio is if he over-estimates the ability of his watered down body, per the stips provided, imo.


Just based on the fact that Cap defeats guys who's are way outside of his weight class. And Orion stalemates with his strength and skill guys like Superman etc etc. Cap even defeated Cache a super computer who knew every style on earth and was as enhanced or more so then Cap himself.

Plus your wrong Cap mastered an alien martial art on Kangs ship easily. As even Kang can attest that while it takes other warriors decades to master the form, in what Cap it took a couple of minutes. Plus knowing more doesn't equal more skill. Its about effectiveness and Cap has this over against Orion.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Just based on the fact that Cap defeats guys who's are way outside of his weight class. And Orion stalemates with his strength and skill guys like Superman etc etc. Cap even defeated Cache a super computer who knew every style on earth and was as enhanced or more so then Cap himself.

Plus your wrong Cap mastered an alien martial art on Kangs ship easily. As even Kang can attest that while it takes other warriors decades to master the form, in what Cap it took a couple of minutes. Plus knowing more doesn't equal more skill. Its about effectiveness and Cap has this over against Orion.

You can make a case of Superman being stronger, because of better strength feats and he's no slouch in the fighting department as well.

Yeah but that strength gap isn't as severe compared to Cap and the characters he defeats. Plus yeah he's no slouch in fighting but lets not pretend Supes has the skills of the A-list marital arts group from Marvel nor DC.

There is still a gap and Orion has the experience and MA knowledge that exceeds Steve.

The first fight shouldn't even be an argument at all. Cap wins easily.
The second is iffy. Orion may win a majority but if Cap throws that shield at bullet speed and it hits Orion in the head, then its a win for Cap.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
There is still a gap and Orion has the experience and MA knowledge that exceeds Steve.

I disagree. Orion may have more experience but there is no way he is more skilled.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree. Orion may have more experience but there is no way he is more skilled.

How so? When he fought Mantis ( one of the greatest MA in the universe), he basically had her defeated until Highfather interrupted.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Just based on the fact that Cap defeats guys who's are way outside of his weight class. And Orion stalemates with his strength and skill guys like Superman etc etc. Cap even defeated Cache a super computer who knew every style on earth and was as enhanced or more so then Cap himself.

Plus your wrong Cap mastered an alien martial art on Kangs ship easily. As even Kang can attest that while it takes other warriors decades to master the form, in what Cap it took a couple of minutes. Plus knowing more doesn't equal more skill. Its about effectiveness and Cap has this over against Orion.

Kinda hard for Orion to fight some one way above his weight class like Cap. Doesn't mean he can't. The super computer feat sounds good, but how does that translate to Orion? IIRC, Orion is considered one of the best MA in DC. But that fact is forgotten because he is as strong as Supes.

OK, DD, I didn't know about the alien MA Cap learned (I do have to wonder how one can learn a martial art in a couple of minutes when it would take longer than that just to demonstrate the techniques, outside of the Matrix, of course). Not once did I say knowing more equals more skill. But I do believe knowing more = experience, which decides it for me.

Believe me, I am not knocking Cap. I've got a thing for "wing-heads" . I know he's as bad as they come, but we are talking about Orion. It's all just my opinion, of course.

If Orion is really that skilled, why does he have trouble with people in his own weight class?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
How so? When he fought Mantis ( one of the greatest MA in the universe), he basically had her defeated until Highfather interrupted. What are Mantis physical stats compared to Orion's?

Do you have scans of the fight?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
There is still a gap and Orion has the experience and MA knowledge that exceeds Steve.


Prove he has the experience and MA knowledge that exceeds Steve.

Since Steve has shown to fight better on all accounts. Plus I see you are ignorant towards Steve time loop battles with Korvac.

The day Orion takes down someone with his skill who is 100 class strength ahead of his own with his skill. Then he finally has accomplished a Cap skill feat.

I wouldn't be surprised if they transferred Orion to a regular human body and then he would lose in hth against Lady Shiva.

Hercules is a great hth fighter and has tons of experience but lets face it even he's no Cap.

Originally posted by Mindset
What are Mantis physical stats compared to Orion's?

Do you have scans of the fight?

Mantis is supposed to be second only to Darksied in terms of power... but he is also a man and I've never seen any reference to notable level of skill, let alone a suggestion that he is one of the most skilled fighters in the Universe. I have no clue who this female Mantis that Orion fought, who happens to be one of the best fighters in DC, is.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Prove he has the experience and MA knowledge that exceeds Steve.

Since Steve has shown to fight better on all accounts. Plus I see you are ignorant towards Steve time loop battles with Korvac.

The day Orion takes down someone with his skill who is 100 class strength ahead of his own with his skill. Then he finally has accomplished a Cap skill feat.

I wouldn't be surprised if they transferred Orion to a regular human body and then he would lose in hth against Lady Shiva.

Hercules is a great hth fighter and has tons of experience but lets face it even he's no Cap.

Orion has been around long before man even existed. Skill is a hard thing to gauge, but just because Steve MAY be a better MA, doesn't mean he'll win in a fight.

And I'm thinking of the female NG who is considered the best MA in the universe. The name is escaping me. Orion beat her and Mantis in hth. Darkseid, Mantis, and Superman are all out of his weight class and power, too.

Would the same apply to Thor/Hercules/Wonder Woman vs Batman in hth(no powers)

Originally posted by Silent Master
Would the same apply to Thor/Hercules/Wonder Woman vs Batman in hth(no powers)

Sure, but WW needed to use her powers to take down Bruce one on one.

But they could all win some of the fights?

Just trying to get an idea where you place their skill level.

Thor/Herc/WW could win some fights, but I don't think the majority. Herc I could see winning a fight, though.

Originally posted by Mindset
What are "the female NG who is considered the best MA in the universe" physical stats compared to Orion's?

Do you have scans of the fight?

I stated above the woman's name isn't Mantis. The name is escaping me. However, like Srank said, Mantis is second only to DS. He's taken on Infinity Man and Dr. Fate back in the day. He's also wrestled with Orion and in Simonson's run, Orion pretty much handed his ass.

Didn't see the edit?

Pretty sure I did it before your post.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Orion has been around long before man even existed. Skill is a hard thing to gauge, but just because Steve MAY be a better MA, doesn't mean he'll win in a fight.

And I'm thinking of the female NG who is considered the best MA in the universe. The name is escaping me. Orion beat her and Mantis in hth. Darkseid, Mantis, and Superman are all out of his weight class and power, too.


Its not about Steve being a better MA. Its about his effectiveness against the like of the others that far outshine Orion. By your logic I can reverse what you say and say it doesn't mean Orion will win the fight just because of his longevity.

So for now I just give Cap 7/10.

Originally posted by Mindset
Didn't see the edit?

Pretty sure I did it before your post.

Didn't see it. And I think the female is named Valkyrie. I think she's the one that holds actual tournaments.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Thor/Herc/WW could win some fights, but I don't think the majority. Herc I could see winning a fight, though.

Ok, that's all I wanted to know.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
How so? When he fought Mantis ( one of the greatest MA in the universe), he basically had her defeated until Highfather interrupted. First of all Mantis ISN'T the greatest MA in the universe, not even close. Second, Orion has superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, and durability. The Orion in this thread doesn't. Finally, it's not who you beat but how you beat them. The term jobbing exists for a reason.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Didn't see it. And I think the female is named Valkyrie. I think she's the one that holds actual tournaments.

Valkyra?

I think that was her name, yes.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Orion has been around long before man even existed. Skill is a hard thing to gauge, but just because Steve MAY be a better MA, doesn't mean he'll win in a fight.

And I'm thinking of the female NG who is considered the best MA in the universe. The name is escaping me. Orion beat her and Mantis in hth. Darkseid, Mantis, and Superman are all out of his weight class and power, too.

Superman is out of Orion's weight class and power

Cap kills him.

Originally posted by D-Block
Superman is out of Orion's weight class and power

I'm just talking about pure strength. Because they have wrestled and fought a few times.

Cap wins...caps could stand his ground for a time normally if he has his shield...

Orion in both

Originally posted by bbrem123
Cap wins...caps could stand his ground for a time normally if he has his shield...
Against normal Orion?

Sorry but any decently skilled, fast Class 100 should just be able to grab Cap's shield, wrest it from him and beat him to death with it.

Normal Cap stands less than no chance against Orion

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Normal Cap stands less than no chance against Orion Try reading the OP.

Originally posted by Mindset
Try reading the OP.

O I did

I was responding to someone else comment

OH I SEE!