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Team Sith:

Palpatine
Dooku
Maul


Team Jedi:

Yoda
Mace
Obi Wan Kenobi

Fight takes place in an open flat field. Movie feats only, no EU gayness.

FIGHT!

Won?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Won?

Cos he's a winner, duh.

Won Ton soup?


Sith.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

Sith.

Jedi

Originally posted by Robtard
Jedi Maybe. Not really interested.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Maybe. Not really interested.

Then GTFO, asshat.

Jedi.

Sidious=Yoda

Mace > Dooku

Obi-Wan (III) > Maul

I agree, though Sidious could target and take out Obi early in the fight, just something an ******* like him would do and if Maul manages to survive those first moments, it's 2 on 3, favoring the Sith.

Jedi win this...

unless its old kenobi lol

Jedi 8-10

Yoda or Mace fight Sideous to a stand-still while Obi-Wan holds out for as long as he can against Dooku, and either Yoda or Mace effortlessly destroy Maul. The person who kills Maul double-teams Dooku and kills him, then they all go for the kill against Sideous. Both Yoda and Sideous were Sideous' equal or superior, so, either way the Jedi take it.

Originally posted by Robtard
I agree, though Sidious could target and take out Obi early in the fight, just something an ******* like him would do and if Maul manages to survive those first moments, it's 2 on 3, favoring the Sith. This is what I was thinking.

Mace defeats Palpatine, Yoda defeats Dooku, and they jump in to help Kenobi take out Maul. Jedi win.

If it's Episode III Kenobi, then Jedi win it well enough imo.

Dooku is gonna do what Rob said, plain and simple. He's gonna rape Kenobi in seconds and give the Sith numbers.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Dooku is gonna do what Rob said, plain and simple. He's gonna rape Kenobi in seconds and give the Sith numbers.

Assuming he even could, he'd have to do it faster than Mace or Yoda would take Maul, which wouldn't be a whole lot of time imo.

and he didn't say that.

Originally posted by ares834
Jedi.

Sidious=Yoda

Mace > Dooku

Obi-Wan (III) > Maul

Excellent logic.

Mace would kill Maul in approx. 5 seconds.



And what do you mean EU bs? XD
Its the lifeblood of Star Wars.
Besides, it would add a helluva lot to both sides, would come out almost even, but with a jedi advantage.

Jedi. Replace Maul with Vader and it would be a better fight.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Assuming he even could, he'd have to do it faster than Mace or Yoda would take Maul, which wouldn't be a whole lot of time imo.

and he didn't say that. No one is giving Maul any respect. He held his own against two Jedi, dude.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No one is giving Maul any respect. He held his own against two Jedi, dude.

Well...but then the support for Maul breaks down when we see that he lost to just one Jedi Padawan (in Maul's defense, Obi Wan, at the time, was good enough to be a full fledged Jedi Knight.) We could ague that Maul got bored and complacent which was literally the direct result of his downfall (in both senses of "downfall".

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well...but then the support for Maul breaks down when we see that he lost to just one Jedi Padawan (in Maul's defense, Obi Wan, at the time, was good enough to be a full fledged Jedi Knight.) Maul lost because of his arrogance. He had Obi Wan beat, but chose to tease him instead of kill him.

Not a mistake he'll make here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jedi. Replace Maul with Vader and it would be a better fight.

Done. Replace Maul (who apparently sucks ass) with Vader as he was right after be bowed to Sidious and gave him a BJ.


Sidious/Dooku/Vader Vs Yoda/Mace/Kenobi (all EP3)

Fight!

Hmm... That's tough. I'm inclined to say that Sith win as long as Vader doesn't engage Kenobi.

Originally posted by ares834
Hmm... That's tough. I'm inclined to say that Sith win as long as Vader doesn't engage Kenobi.

Kenobi is the weakest of the three Jedi here.

Wow. No respect for the Maul.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Wow. No respect for the Maul.

They have none.

Originally posted by Robtard
Kenobi is the weakest of the three Jedi here. Never said any differently. The problem is Vader will be unable to overcome Kenobi in the time it takes Windu or Yoda to defeat Dooku. However, if Kenobi battles one of the two other Sith he would likely be quickly defeated.

Originally posted by Robtard
They have none. Guess they have no respect for the Jinn either.

Becuase Jinn just showed up, killed some droids, and died.
Kenobi was a Padawan.
Maul fought a guy who wasnt all that great, and lost to his padawan. Maul from the movie isnt that powerful.


Vaders only hope of survival is to fight Kenobi, and he wont win. It will take Kenobi a while to kill him though, but by then Mace and Yoda will be fighting Palpatine.

And anyways, Kenobi isnt a lightweight, taking on Grevious and his spinning Hands of Doom.

Jinn died because Maul was younger and had more stamina. He wore Jinn down. You can see Jinn is worn out right before he dies.

Maul knew what he was doing. He fought a retreating battle the entire time. He knew he had to separate them, kill the Master first, then deal with the Padawan. The laser gates and that room being there? Come on, bit too coincidental for me.

Once he had them separated by the laser gates, he went on the offensive all of a sudden. Again, bit too coincidental for me. Maul's biggest mistake was underestimating Obi Wan.

Originally posted by Pwned
Vaders only hope of survival is to fight Kenobi, and he wont win. It will take Kenobi a while to kill him though, but by then Mace and Yoda will be fighting Palpatine.

And anyways, Kenobi isnt a lightweight, taking on Grevious and his spinning Hands of Doom.

You are seriously underestimating Vader here. His loss to Obi-Wan was a major upset. I mean he tooled Dooku in a way that not even Yoda could. I can easily see him hold his own against either Mace or Yoda for at least awhile.

Kenobi, on the other hand, can't hold his own against Dooku or Sidious. Sure his saber skills are amazing, but either Sith Lord will be able to tool him in the force just like Dooku did in the movie.

Originally posted by ares834
You are seriously underestimating Vader here. His loss to Obi-Wan was a major upset. I mean he tooled Dooku in a way that not even Yoda could. I can easily see him hold his own against either Mace or Yoda for at least awhile.

Kenobi, on the other hand, can't hold his own against Dooku or Sidious. Sure his saber skills are amazing, but either Sith Lord will be able to tool him in the force just like Dooku did in the movie.

Nick Gillard, lightsaber stunt coordinator for the PT, gave them ratings on a scale of 1-10. He gave Sidious, Yoda, and Anankin 9's, but those were the only 9's. So how did Obi Wan stand up to Anakin?

For most of the fight, Obi Wan was the one giving the most ground. And he only lost due to being stupidly arrogant. Is Obi Wan a really high 8?

I actually have heard multiple reasons, but I'd like to know some reasons. This will directly help the thread.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No one is giving Maul any respect. He held his own against two Jedi, dude. Two jedi who, without going into EU, have absolutely zero feats to their name.

Anakin was emotionally freaking out. Sith's powers are tied into their emotions. If they are in control they can channel power beyond what they could as Jedi. If they aren't, they're frenzied lunatics.

Also Obi-Wan got lucky with the high-ground. As you said, previously Anakin was pushing him back the entire fight.

Yeah, I've heard of these scales before. IIRC he also gave Mace Windu a 9. Regardless, I don't know what he gave Obi-Wan, but I agree with you. Anakin was surely winning most of the fight hence why I called the battle a "major upset". Still, Kenobi held his own against Anakin and while I think he would usually lose a battle it would clearly take awhile.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Two jedi who, without going into EU, have absolutely zero feats to their name. Yeah, being a Jedi Master is silly!!!!!

Tell that to this guy.

no.

GG

**** Grievous, ****in cybernetic ass ***** ass *****.

I think he meant GG as in Good Game.

RJ doesn't play with Koreans, I don't expect him to understand.

GQRV_HXjhes&feature=relmfu

Koreans FTW!

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
RJ doesn't play with Koreans, I don't expect him to understand. Not North Koreans.

I knew it. You're racist against communists!

Get to the back of the bus.

Yeah because that was cool. I have more than half a mind to report that.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Guess they have no respect for the Jinn either. Bingo.



This should be pre-suit Vader. Strictly speaking with the movies, he's superior to the future cyborg.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Yeah because that was cool. I have more than half a mind to report that. It's okay. Blax/RJ banter is often naughty and inappropriate. No homo.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, I've heard of these scales before. IIRC he also gave Mace Windu a 9. Regardless, I don't know what he gave Obi-Wan, but I agree with you. Anakin was surely winning most of the fight hence why I called the battle a "major upset". Still, Kenobi held his own against Anakin and while I think he would usually lose a battle it would clearly take awhile.

No, he gave Mace an "outside the scale" rating. My take on that was Mace is generally as strong as his opponents due to Form VII. There would be a limit to that, IMO. I don't think he could just become as strong as anyone no matter how strong...that doesn't make sense.

Other than that, yeah: Anakin losing doesn't make much sense...but Neph explained it and it makes more sense as that ties in perfectly with Anakin acting like a retard right at the very end.

Quick question where is Mace Windu's level stated? I did some searching and only found Kenobi's, Anakin's, Sidious's, and Yoda's. "In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines."

Originally posted by Nephthys


Yeah because that was cool. I have more than half a mind to report that. Report away, I was kidding.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Bingo.



This should be pre-suit Vader. Strictly speaking with the movies, he's superior to the future cyborg. In a saber duel, yes. In a force duel, no.

Maul and Jin= BADASS.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Report away, I was kidding.

This was like...the same exact reason that was given you were banned, last time. To paraphrase, even joking, it's not acceptable. However, I think we are adults and we should be able to say whatever we want as long as the intended recipient is okay with it.


But a report threat about an insult to Nephthys? Yeah right: there's no way he'd report. I think he was just joking because of how gigantically hypocritical it would be.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No one is giving Maul any respect. He held his own against two Jedi, dude.

respect is one thing. adoration and highballing is another.

it was an obi-wan inferior to the current one and qui gon, whose skills were only tested in those two fights.

being a jedi doesn't automatically make you a wizard with a lightsaber. Look at the other episodes...

Originally posted by -Pr-
being a jedi doesn't automatically make you a wizard with a lightsaber. Look at the other episodes...

I disagree. That's exactly what it means. You're obviously speaking in relative terms to other Jedi and I'm speaking in absolute (technically, it's all relative terms) terms.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. That's exactly what it means. You're obviously speaking in relative terms to other Jedi and I'm speaking in absolute (technically, it's all relative terms) terms.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think he meant GG as in Good Game.

7uAXKQZROpY

Originally posted by Kazenji
7uAXKQZROpY


hfgl

Well that other did say Good Game....

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Jinn died because Maul was younger and had more stamina. He wore Jinn down. You can see Jinn is worn out right before he dies.

Maul knew what he was doing. He fought a retreating battle the entire time. He knew he had to separate them, kill the Master first, then deal with the Padawan. The laser gates and that room being there? Come on, bit too coincidental for me.

Once he had them separated by the laser gates, he went on the offensive all of a sudden. Again, bit too coincidental for me. Maul's biggest mistake was underestimating Obi Wan.

Correct

Correct

Correct, arrogance too.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
In a saber duel, yes. In a force duel, no.

Maul and Jin= BADASS. No of course not, all RotS Vader did with the Force was a Choke and a jump. He can't do anything else.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No of course not, all RotS Vader did with the Force was a Choke and a jump. He can't do anything else.

I smell sarcasm. But in case I'm wrong, he did that butt-hurt-force-scream that crushed around him and shook the building. This seemed to make Sidious happy.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No of course not, all RotS Vader did with the Force was a Choke and a jump. He can't do anything else.

Force choke across a the Executor>>>>Force choke from five feet away

TKing several objects at once>>>>>Yeah.....

Originally posted by Robtard
Correct

Correct

Correct, arrogance too. Arrogance was Maul's only weakness. He took on two Jedi FFS and no one gives him any love.

Originally posted by Robtard
I smell sarcasm. But in case I'm wrong, he did that butt-hurt-force-scream that crushed around him and shook the building. This seemed to make Sidious happy. I should never have said "of course not", it wasn't sarcasm. Pre-suit Anakin never did anything impressive with the Force.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Arrogance was Maul's only weakness. He took on two Jedi FFS and no one gives him any love. To be fair, those Jedi weren't that great. At least not when extra-movie awareness is included.

Nah, one was just a Master.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I should never have said "of course not", it wasn't sarcasm. Pre-suit Anakin never did anything impressive with the Force.


Just saying "pre-suit" is sort of a blunder,imo. As at the end of ROTS he was suited Vader, but he was still basically the same guy (minus parts) as he was right after he bowed to Sidious and embraced the DS, killed younglings etc.

Should really be PT and OT Vader. Unless someone wants to argue that being chopped, burned and encased it a robo-suit made him more powerful on those merits alone, which I don't think anyone would.

So excusing my rant above, ROTS Anakin at the end displayed a large amount of Force ability with the butt-hurt-scream.

I think it's farely retarded to think there's a magical difference in force ability between Suit Vader in the OT and pre-suit Anakin/Vader in the PT.

I've provided quotes in the other thread that says if Anakin would not have been injured in his fight on Mustafar, he would have beaten the Emperor. Not only is it clear what that means, we even have the official Ep. III video game showing us exactly what GL meant by that.

Little if any improvement in force ability occured with Vader from the PT to the OT. He was reduced to TK tricks that some of you are thinking are the best things he's ever done. Wrong. The best thing he ever did, in the force, was fight and defeat Dooku. Some could argue his killing of the emperor was his best force feat...but that's not really using the force if you stick to the films.

Originally posted by Robtard
Just saying "pre-suit" is sort of a blunder,imo. As at the end of ROTS he was suited Vader, but he was still basically the same guy (minus parts) as he was right after he bowed to Sidious and embraced the DS, killed younglings etc.

Should really be PT and OT Vader. Unless someone wants to argue that being chopped, burned and encased it a robo-suit made him more powerful on those merits alone, which I don't think anyone would.

So excusing my rant above, ROTS Anakin at the end displayed a large amount of Force ability with the butt-hurt-scream. Yeah I don't think Anakin knew what he was doing then.

It is really hard to talk about Star Wars without using EU or novelized material.

No it isn't.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It is really hard to talk about Star Wars without using EU or novelized material.

Agreed. Everytime some one brings up Anakin vs Dooku I immediately think "in teh z0ne!1" followed promptly by "Bandon solos"

Depends on the person I guess.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No it isn't. Wasn't talking about you, you don't frequent those forums.

Originally posted by ares834
Agreed. Everytime some one brings up Anakin vs Dooku I immediately think "in teh z0ne!1" followed promptly by "Bandon solos" Exactly! God I wish we could bring Bandon in these. He'd obliterate anyone else in these vs. Harry Potter and co. wouldn't stand a chance.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wasn't talking about you, you don't frequent those forums.

WTF difference does it make what forum you were talking about? You said, flat out, that SW is hard to talk about without bringing in the EU.

It isn't. We do it here all the time.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
WTF difference does it make what forum you were talking about? You said, flat out, that SW is hard to talk about without bringing in the EU.

It isn't. We do it here all the time. Alright then, let me rephrase it. I wasn't to you, you little pedant. There's enough of us from the SW forums to understand what I meant.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Alright then, let me rephrase it. I wasn't to you, you little pedant. There's enough of us from the SW forums to understand what I meant. You make a post here, it's public and anyone can respond to it. You want to keep it to one person? Private messaging.

We here in the MVF have no problem talking about SW without bringing in the EU, and there are some die hard fans here. Me, DDM, Robtard, sadako, Impediment, and many others. So what I said rings true. It's not difficult to talk SW, movies only.

I have actually proposed an anything versus forum, but the moderators immediately shot it down. It'd put an end to the "screen feats only" bullshit.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You make a post here, it's public and anyone can respond to it. You want to keep it to one person? Private messaging. I will post a statement in a public forum for all to read. Those who know what I'm talking about, will know. Those who (like yourself) who don't, will inquire what I mean (which you did). I will explain myself (as I did), and the issue will be settled.


Unless of course a fellow poster is a pedantic little know-it-all who relishes in proving any point he can to soothe his ego. In which case, I guess issues will arise.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I will post a statement in a public forum for all to read. Those who know what I'm talking about, will know. Those who (like yourself) who don't, will inquire what I mean (which you did). I will explain myself (as I did), and the issue will be settled. I know what you're talking about. It was an adjustment for me. One simply has to know where and when to draw the line. It's not that hard.


U mad, bro? You seem mad.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I know what you're talking about. It was an adjustment for me. One simply has to know where and when to draw the line. It's not that hard.


U mad, bro? You seem mad. Nice one

He's probably mad because your point is retarded, RJ. lol

And for the record, DDM's skewing of GL's quotes aside, what scenes from the movies support the idea that Anakin was ever a match for the Emperor?

And it seems a little strange to me to assume that GL intended for Anakin, even in the suit, to be a match for Sideous, when he's stated that losing his arms and legs made him "about 80% of Sideous" in terms of power and potential. That's one the most idiotic statements GL has ever made, I think, but it suits this discussion.

Just saying, you know?

Movies.


EU.



Keep them separate. For the record, I am of the opinion that the movies and EU are linked, I consider them one in the same. And trust me, I have taken a fair amount of shit over it.


We should start a petition for an anything vs forum.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He's probably mad because your point is retarded, RJ. lol http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/ThisIsSparta-CalmDownBro.jpg

Imma hafta agree with Lucien on this one: it's hard to talk Star Wars without some of the very easily clarified EU stuff. The novelizations of the films, alone, would make this discussion much easier to deal with. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay less that could be argued about.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Imma hafta agree with Lucien on this one: it's hard to talk Star Wars without some of the very easily clarified EU stuff. The novelizations of the films, alone, would make this discussion much easier to deal with. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay less that could be argued about. You know, you pretty much do it on a regular basis. Here, and on the phone. We did earlier.

Nope, not hard. Unless you mean difficult as in exasperating, then yes, I agree, but not difficult to actually do.

yeah, based on the movie alone, Anakin would never have a prayer against Sidious. He couldn't beat Obi-Wan, who "ready to face sidious, would never be"

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Just saying, you know?

Movies.


EU.



Keep them separate. For the record, I am of the opinion that the movies and EU are linked, I consider them one in the same. And trust me, I have taken a fair amount of shit over it.


We should start a petition for an anything vs forum. Well, the thing is, what you were just saying was kind of irrelevent in relation to the content of his post. He said that it was hard for him to discuss this without discussing EU. He didn't say "It's hard for me to discuss Star Wars without brining up EU, so I am now going to break the rules and bring up EU." Obviously, it's because he knows he's not aloud to do so, that he commented on how hard it was. I think you either misunderstood his post or jumped the gun, there.

That aside, agreed with DDM. Arguing Star Wars without bringing up EU is not only hard but, imo, it's pointless and stupid. It's like trying to figure out how to solve a retardedly hard math problem on your own even though the textbook is right next to you and it explains it perfectly. I mean FFS, we all know that Qui-Gon Jinn is a badass, but I was able to squash your sentiment that he was a badass by just pointing out that he displayed no badassery in the movies. That's whack.

its like if they posted online if Inception ended in a dream state or not, and we refused to allow that little piece of information in a discussion, and instead argued it forever.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You know, you pretty much do it on a regular basis. Here, and on the phone. We did earlier.

Nope, not hard. Unless you mean difficult as in exasperating, then yes, I agree, but not difficult to actually do.

That's only "sort" of. All the time we bring up the EU on all the places you bring up.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Well, the thing is, what you were just saying was kind of irrelevent in relation to the content of his post. He said that it was hard for him to discuss this without discussing EU. Actually, that's exactly what he said:

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It is really hard to talk about Star Wars without using EU or novelized material.



He revised his statement, It's all good.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Prove me wrong.

Seems the quote directly applies to the pre-chopped and burned Vader directly in context with everything else that was being said...ESPECIALLY if you consider the "you have to be Mace or Yoda" part being followed up with "if Anakin wasn't hurt."

You're so horrendously bias that you will never admit it. It's fact. Anakin could have beaten Sidious in a saber duel before he was chopped and burned. Time frame: immediate.

Except that contradicts the statement.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could have beat the Emperor."

The first sentance dictates that, Yoda and Mace are the only ones who can, during at least the movies, compete with the Emperor. That means no one else in the movies is able to. This makes sense considering that Palps cut down three Jedi Masters in seconds and Yoda points out that Kenobi will be ultimately ineffective against the Sith Lord.

The second sentance says that had Anakin won the duel he could have beat the Emperor. However, no time frame is given to this statment. So when taken with the context of the sentance before it means that Anakin, as he appears in the movies, would be unable to "compete with the Emperor" but if he hadn't been hurt he eventually could.

However, even if we take it as you do, GL uses the word "could" rather than "would" meaning it is uncertain that Vader would be victorius.



Sure, but saber dueling isn't purely use of the force. As Dooku himself acknowledges there is a diffrence between battling with the force and battling with a saber. Heck, lets consider the duel on Mustafar. Anakin is clearly superior to Kenobi in the sabers department, but is merely equal when it comes to use of the force. Clearly there is a diffrent set of skills required.

Hence the terms "saber feats" and "force feats". Both require the use of the force but one is simply its use the other the use of both saber skills and an entirely diffrent set of force skills.

Originally posted by ares834
Except that contradicts the statement.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could have beat the Emperor."

Except that it doesn't and in fact that is exactly my point. The rest of what you said literally is rubbish. You lack an understanding of context in that statement which has lead you to a rubbish conclusion.


Originally posted by ares834
Sure, but saber dueling isn't purely use of the force. As Dooku himself acknowledges there is a diffrence between battling with the force and battling with a saber. Heck, lets consider the duel on Mustafar. Anakin is clearly superior to Kenobi in the sabers department, but is merely equal when it comes to use of the force. Clearly there is a diffrent set of skills required.

Hence the terms "saber feats" and "force feats". Both require the use of the force but one is simply its use the other the use of both saber skills and an entirely diffrent set of force skills.

Everything you just said missed my point entirely. Amazing. It's like you wanted my post to have said something, and responded to that, instead.

And, "saber feats." HA! You just mad that up. No one says "saber feats."


And to your "different set" point:

And those people are clearly wrong because a saber duel amongst force users is very force intensive. Just because they don't understand that, does not make the "common understanding" correct.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Except that it doesn't and in fact that is exactly my point. The rest of what you said literally is rubbish. You lack an understanding of context in that statement which has lead you to a rubbish conclusion.


Because it makes sense that Anakin can compete with the Emperor when the quote says in no uncertain terms that only Yoda and Mace can do so. Not to mention everything else points to Anakin being unable to do. Namely the fact that he was unable to defeat even Kenobi who is apparently no match for the Empeor at all.



I'm showing that there is a direct distinction between battling with the force and battling with a saber. Something you seem to ignore when you lump battling with a saber into the force feat department.



What else would you call it? "Saber skills"? It's completley irrelivant what it is namedbut there is a clear difference between battling with thee force and battling with a saber.



All right then I ask this: how much did Anakin use the force in his duel with Dooku? Can you prove that it was his greatest display of the force?

I always found that a bit weird. Lucas saying that Anakin "could" have beaten Palpatine, but has Yoda flat-out tell Kenobi that he's not powerful enough. The same Kenobi who stymied pre-burnt up Anakin and ultimately got the best of him.

I really don't think the guy put much thought in to his story sometimes.

Originally posted by ares834
Because it makes sense that Anakin can compete with the Emperor when the quote says in no uncertain terms that only Yoda and Mace can do so. Not to mention everything else points to Anakin being unable to do. Namely the fact that he was unable to defeat even Kenobi who is apparently no match for the Empeor at all.


"Seems the quote directly applies to the pre-chopped and burned Vader directly in context with everything else that was being said...ESPECIALLY if you consider the "you have to be Mace or Yoda" part being followed up with "if Anakin wasn't hurt."

You're so horrendously bias that you will never admit it. It's fact. Anakin could have beaten Sidious in a saber duel before he was chopped and burned. Time frame: immediate."


Originally posted by ares834
I'm showing that there is a direct distinction between battling with the force and battling with a saber. Something you seem to ignore when you lump battling with a saber into the force feat department.


And you're, "clearly wrong because a saber duel amongst force users is very force intensive. Just because don't understand that, does not make the 'common understanding' correct."





Originally posted by ares834
What else would you call it? "Saber skills"? It's completley irrelivant what it is namedbut there is a clear difference between battling with thee force and battling with a saber..

K. Choose to ignore that saber duels are very force intensive. I'll be over here in reality...I mean fiction. I mean the reality created inside of the fictional universe. lulz



Originally posted by ares834
All right then I ask this: how much did Anakin use the force in his duel with Dooku? Can you prove that it was his greatest display of the force?

How much did Dooku use the force against Yoda before it came to saber blows (lol)?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yeah I don't think Anakin knew what he was doing then.

Or Vader did and it was an impressive display of power, which Sidious found pleasing, cos his new puppet was still a very powerful weapon. Hence Sidious' creepy smile.

Originally posted by Robtard
Or Vader did and it was an impressive display of power, which Sidious found pleasing, cos his new puppet was still a very powerful weapon. Hence Sidious' creepy smile. Or Vader was distraught at Padme's death.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Or Vader was distraught at Padme's death.

Yes, it's obvious he was. What he did is still a measure of his power, it's not like he loses it after he's no longer pussy-whipped.

Is this what you're arguing; that It's some sort of one-time trick?

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, it's obvious he was. What he did is still a measure of his power, it's not like he loses it after he's no longer pussy-whipped.

Is this what you're arguing; that It's some sort of one-time trick? Nah, but I relate it to stories of mothers lifting burning cars to free their infants.

If Vader was in that state of mind again, he could probably replicate it.

You arguing that he knew what he was doing?

Or it's just the level of his power, cos he's Vader and had a midi-chlorian count higher than Yoda. That.

Originally posted by Robtard
Or it's just the level of his power, cos he's Vader and had a midi-chlorian count higher than Yoda. That. Nuh uh. Cuz he lost four limbs and had a lot of his flesh burned away. So he's probably down to like 12,000 midichlorians from the 20,000+ he had to begin with. So really he's a lot weaker now.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Nuh uh. Cuz he lost four limbs and had a lot of his flesh burned away. So he's probably down to like 12,000 midichlorians from the 20,000+ he had to begin with. So really he's a lot weaker now.

That word gets thrown around way too often.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"You're so horrendously bias that you will never admit it. It's fact. Anakin could have beaten Sidious in a saber duel before he was chopped and burned. Time frame: immediate."


"I see no reason to see it to apply to the "pre-chopped and burned Vader" but rather the hypothetical Anakin that "hadn't got all beat-up"."

You still have to equate these two for your statment to be correct.

You're so horrendously bias that you will never admit it. It's fact. Sidious would have owned RotS Anakin.




So you once again countine to ignore everything I brought up. The fact remains there is a clear distinction in using the force to attack and using the force in a saber duel. Dooku himself bring up the distinction between the two. But apparently you believe you know more about the force than him... You don't.

Also I am still wondering if you will answer my question. I want proof that Anakin most impressive display of the force was defeating Dooku?



If by "help you argue with yourself" you mean fail to address every point I have than yes you do...




Yep, I'm the one trolling. Say whatever you need to sleep at night.

Originally posted by ares834
"I see no reason to see it to apply to the "pre-chopped and burned Vader" but rather the hypothetical Anakin that "hadn't got all beat-up"."

You still have to equate these two for your statment to be correct.

You're so horrendously bias that you will never admit it. It's fact. Sidious would have owned RotS Anakin.

"The quote directly applies to the pre-chopped and burned Vader directly in context with everything else that was being said...ESPECIALLY if you consider the "you have to be Mace or Yoda" part being followed up with "if Anakin wasn't hurt."

You're so horrendously bias that you will never admit it. It's fact. Anakin could have beaten Sidious in a saber duel before he was chopped and burned. Time frame: immediate."



Originally posted by ares834
So you once again countine to ignore everything I brought up.

No, that's you.


Originally posted by ares834
The fact remains there is a clear distinction in using the force to attack and using the force in a saber duel.

Yeah, it's quite obvious what that is: one is using just force powers with their mind and the other is using force powers with and while moving their body. One is more of a test of the force than the other. I'll give you a hint...it's not throwing lightning and testing TK abilities.

Originally posted by ares834
Dooku himself bring up the distinction between the two. But apparently you believe you know more about the force than him... You don't.


I'll give you a hint why you don't get it: you have too much bias to think clearly and think that a fictional character knows more than I do about a fictional universe.

And "knowledge of the force" != using the force.

Originally posted by ares834
Also I am still wondering if you will answer my question. I want proof that Anakin most impressive display of the force was defeating Dooku?

That's easy: watch the damn movie.

The proof is literally that Anakin defeated him.


Originally posted by ares834
If by "help you argue with yourself" you mean fail to address every point I have than yes you do...

If by "fail to address every point I have" then, yes, you're talking about your own fail.




Originally posted by ares834
Yep, I'm the one trolling. Say whatever you need to sleep at night.

It's quite clear you are when you just admitted that saber duels are very force intensive.

You guys should call me. I can get you a mad discount on a hotel room.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"The quote directly applies to the pre-chopped and burned Vader directly in context with everything else that was being said...ESPECIALLY if you consider the "you have to be Mace or Yoda" part being followed up with "if Anakin wasn't hurt."

You're so horrendously bias that you will never admit it. It's fact. Anakin could have beaten Sidious in a saber duel before he was chopped and burned. Time frame: immediate."

Concession accepted.



kk





Yep, two very diffrent and distinct things. Glad you agree.



Which is why any ordinary Joe can swing a saber, but only the true masters rely on strict force usage. Yes?

I'll give you a hint... it's not.




Bias? Lol I'm not the one saying Anakin is greater than Sidious when everything points to the opposite. And yes, said fictional character would know more aboust said fictional world. I mean he only lives there and has merely studied the force his entire life.



Dooku himself made a distinction between using the force for an attack and using it in a saber duel. Countine to ignore it if you wish.



K, how does that prove anything? How much did he rely on skill and how much on force aptitude? And still my question remains how is this his most impressive force feat?




Yep, I'm the one repeating irrelivant and false statements that contradict everything shown in the move.



Lol what? Just because they are "force intensive" doesn't mean it's Anakin's most impressive force feat...

Saber duels are Force intensive in the novelizations. The movies just have them swinging glowrods.


Sorry, ares

Sorry for what? If anything that helps my argument!

Oh. I find it hard to follow these broken-quoted arguments sometimes.

Ahaha he said rod.

Originally posted by ares834
Concession accepted.

Oh oh! One of these. Here:

I'm glad you concede.



Originally posted by ares834
Yep, two very diffrent and distinct things. Glad you agree.


Nope, both are heavy on the force and concentration.


Originally posted by ares834
Which is why any ordinary Joe can swing a saber, but only the true masters rely on strict force usage. Yes?

I'll give you a hint... it's not.


I'll give you another hint: you could not be more wrong.




Originally posted by ares834
Bias? Lol I'm not the one saying Anakin is greater than Sidious when everything points to the opposite.

Please quote me where I said Anakin or pre-suit Vader is greater tahn Sidious at everything.




Originally posted by ares834
And yes, said fictional character would know more aboust said fictional world. I mean he only lives there and has merely studied the force his entire life.

No, sorry, that's no how it works. While you are stuck inside of la la land of fantasy, I'll be over here, in reality.


Originally posted by ares834
Dooku himself made a distinction between using the force for an attack and using it in a saber duel. Countine to ignore it if you wish.

And this only leads to another reason why you fail. The distinction was knowledge, not using the actual force. Yoda actively used the force non-stop while dueling Dooku, as did Dooku. How is this different than using the force intermittantly to TK shit? Oh, right: you're stuck in bias fantasy land where you cannot discern reality for fiction.

Good job and missing the point, yet again, on a pivotal moment in the films.




Originally posted by ares834
K, how does that prove anything? How much did he rely on skill and how much on force aptitude? And still my question remains how is this his most impressive force feat?

The question has been answered already and you've admitted the most important element that supports what I'm saying.

You can do better at trolling: try harder.




Originally posted by ares834
Yep, I'm the one repeating irrelivant and false statements that contradict everything shown in the move.

I know you are. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.



Originally posted by ares834
Lol what? Just because they are "force intensive" doesn't mean it's Anakin's most impressive force feat...

ohhhh! Thank you for clearing that up! I had NO idea that is what your angle was.



So you think TK is the most impressive use of the force, eh?

Originally posted by dadudemon







Please quote me where I said Anakin or pre-suit Vader is greater tahn Sidious at everything.



Yeah?

Originally posted by dadudemon





Anakin or pre-suit Vader is greater tahn Sidious at everything.



Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nope, both are heavy on the force and concentration.

You yourself noted a distinction!


I'll glady accept that concession now!




Once again, which is why the true masters are the ones who typically use force on force combat while ordinary joe uses the saber!

K, I guess it makes sense that the weaker Jedi would rely on the more difficult use of the force, well at least in the so called "real" world.



Don't you love making it seem that I have stated things I have never said! It's just a great argumetn style!

But in case you were blind.
Me: Lol I'm not the one saying Anakin is greater than Sidious when everything points to the opposite.



Oh... So our statments about said fictional universe are more accurate than the character themselves? Cool. I see how it works in the "real" world now.



I'll let what you said answer this: " one is using just force powers with their mind and the other is using force powers with and while moving their body."



The point is Anakin is superior to Dooku. But he is not superior in the force. Consider that Dooku was effortlessly able to defeat Kenobi through the force, but Anakin was able to merely match him in their force push contest.




I'm still waiting on the proof and not your clear bias. I'd like it soon, but I certainly don't expect it.

Originally posted by ares834
You yourself noted a distinction!

This is completely irrelevant to what I just stated.


Originally posted by ares834
I'll glady accept that concession now!


This is completely irrelevant to what I just stated.

"both are heavy on the force and concentration."


Originally posted by ares834
Once again, which is why the true masters are the ones who typically use force on force combat while ordinary joe uses the saber!

K, I guess it makes sense that the weaker Jedi would rely on the more difficult use of the force, well at least in the so called "real" world.

Here's where you're really making a fool of yourself. You admit that saber duels, which are not simply moving a blade around, are force intensive.

Please tell me all the force abilities being used in a high-level force duel.






Originally posted by ares834
Don't you love making it seem that I have stated things I have never said! It's just a great argumetn style!

But in case you were blind.
Me: Lol I'm not the one saying Anakin is greater than Sidious when everything points to the opposite.

Still a troll, eh?

"Please quote me where I said Anakin or pre-suit Vader is greater tahn Sidious at everything."




Originally posted by ares834
Oh... So our statments about said fictional universe are more accurate than the character themselves? Cool. I see how it works in the "real" world now.

You don't even know how to follow a proper conversation.

Please quote me where I said that my statements about fictional universe are more accurate than the character's themselves.


Let's recap:

You said:

"And yes, said fictional character would know more aboust said fictional world. I mean he only lives there and has merely studied the force his entire life. "

I said:

"No, sorry, that's no how it works. While you are stuck inside of la la land of fantasy, I'll be over here, in reality."



You saying, "So our statments about said fictional universe are more accurate than the character themselves? Cool. I see how it works in the "real" world now." is so puerile it's astounding (I'm lying, it's not astounding. I expect non sequitur statements like that from you.)

And, if you wanted to actually reply correctly, you would have said something like this: "You're right. I'm acting a fool stuck in a fantasy world. I knew all along that Chancellor Palpatine was Darth Sidious and the other characters didn't. I also knew that Anakin was being played for a fool by Palpatine. I also knew that the rebels were going to attack a very small weakness on the Death Star. I also knew that the rebels would disable the shields on the second death star to destroy it a second time. I also knew the Death Star was "armed and fully operational." I also knew that Anakin and Padme were having an affair and everyone else didn't (till Obi Wan.)" Etc. etc. etc.

While you make a strawman argument that makes you look stupid, I'll be over here knowing the Star Wars story and mythos a million times better than your sad warped perspective.

Originally posted by ares834
I'll let what you said answer this: " one is using just force powers with their mind and the other is using force powers with and while moving their body."

1. You're trolling.
2. You did not use that properly.
3. The question was answered by the prior statement and by the content of the question itself.
4. The question was rhetorical.
5. You fail.

Originally posted by ares834
The point is Anakin is superior to Dooku. But he is not superior in the force.

This right here shows a lack of understanding on what the force actually is.

What you actually need to say is this: "Dooku and Anakin have differing aptitudes with the force. Anakin, when focused, is superior in saber combat. He is also superior in using battle pre-cog for things like saber duels and piloting ships. Dooku is superior in his elemental use of the force such as force lightning. TK is debatable."

Instead, you like to make innacurate sweeping generalizations. This is why you fail.

Originally posted by ares834
Consider that Dooku was effortlessly able to defeat Kenobi through the force, but Anakin was able to merely match him in their force push contest.

Again, you severely lack an understanding of the force. TK is definitely NOT the only use of the force. Kindly suck it. And, yes, I realized that you had no idea what you were talking about and were confusing "TK" for "force ability" when there's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more uses of the force other than hand gestured TK.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm still waiting on the proof and not your clear bias. I'd like it soon, but I certainly don't expect it.

You will never get it because your own bias prevents you from seeing it.

Please, tell me all of the force powers or abilities used in a high-level lightsaber duel.

(Everything below, I'm actually being serious, for once. All the other stuff was more like a game. So read on with a different tone to my words.)

If you list those, then you'll definitely have your answer.

If you need to "phone a friend" because you're ignorant of the answer, there's no shame in that. I've swallowed my pride before to ask questions of others: there's no shame in ignorance; only willful ignorance.

Also, do none of Anakin's force feats from the Clone Wars film count? They should in the MVF unless the OP states otherwise.

Actually, Anakin WAS superior in the force.........

Dooku was by far the better swordsman, but Anakin was able to overwhelm him. Dooku is more precise and knowledgable in the force, but he couldnt use any of it due to a random Son-Of-A-Force attacking him.

Originally posted by Pwned
Actually, Anakin WAS superior in the force.........

Dooku was by far the better swordsman, but Anakin was able to overwhelm him. Dooku is more precise and knowledgable in the force, but he couldnt use any of it due to a random Son-Of-A-Force attacking him.

This is the same thing I held, a well.

However, discussions with my coworker and ares have me doubting that once held belief.




I could have sworn that Anakin had better TK feats than Dooku, did. Dooku has more knowledge, but not pure power in the force.




Also, I figured out why it was said by Lucas that Anakin could have won against Sids if he wasn't injured on Mustafar:

Yoda and Dooku fought. They were fairly evenly matched. Dooku fought Yoda to a stalemate. I would give Yoda the upperhand, but neither got a "victory" over the other. Technically, Dooku won because he escaped as he planned.

So, Yoda and Dooku are close in Saber Combat ability.


Fast forward to the Clone Wars film: Anakin and Dooku are even.


Fast forward to Episode III. Anakin, once he focuses and uses his power, easily defeats Dooku.


Compare this with Sidious and Yoda. Yoda, imo, got the better of Sidious in their Saber Duel because Yoda remarked that, despite his claims of "power" in the force, Sidious was still running from Yoda. Sidious eventually switched the fight to a pure force TK fight because Yoda was better.


What are the results? The original rankings of "9's" being given to Yoda, Sidious, and Anakin are acurate. They are all about the same level with Anakin probably getting the edge when he's focusing his rage in a more controlled manner. This is why George's claim that Anakin could have defeated Sidious HAD he NOT been injured, is accurate.


Anyway, Pwned, thanks for your insight. I knew I was forgetting something.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Irrelevant garbage to make up for lack of proof.

I'll actually respond when you bring up something worth responding too. Or if you actually back up your claims.

Originally posted by ares834
I'll actually respond when you bring up something worth responding too. Or if you actually back up your claims.

There's something for you to respond to at the end of the post as it pretty much boils down to that.

Here it is, again:

"Please, tell me all of the force powers or abilities used in a high-level lightsaber duel."


Also concede, agree, or refute the claim that Anakin was superior to Dooku in the force just before he turned to the dark side. I'm interested to see how this ties into your thoughts on the mythos.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There's something for you to respond to at the end of the post as it pretty much boils down to that.

Here it is, again:

"Please, tell me all of the force powers or abilities used in a high-level lightsaber duel."

Precognition and force enhanced movements.



Eh, hard to tell if just using the movies. Both were very skilled at using it, but in different ways. If I was forced to choose I would probably say that he was superior. Yes.

Originally posted by ares834
Precognition and force enhanced movements.

That's not everything: there are other force powers (plural) being used during saber duels. If we can get on the same page in this particular point, our arguments are pretty much null as we would have achieved a middle ground.

Originally posted by ares834
Eh, hard to tell if just using the movies. Both were very skilled at using it, but in different ways. If I was forced to choose I would probably say that he was superior. Yes.

I would say that the "in-universe" characters would give Anakin the nod.

Outside the universe, I agree that it's difficult to say because we have to adhere to this stupid think called logic.

Wait... in the movies, what Force powers are being used during the saber duels? Precognition and enhanced movement sure, but what else is there? Occasionally they stop swinging their sword and throw out a Force push or some Lightning, but actually during all the swinging and deflecting, what else is there?

Nothing, the occasional TK of objects.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wait... in the movies, what Force powers are being used during the saber duels? Precognition and enhanced movement sure, but what else is there? Occasionally they stop swinging their sword and throw out a Force push or some Lightning, but actually during all the swinging and deflecting, what else is there?

No, that's what I was talking about. I do not consider "stopping" to use force TK or lightning as not part of the duel. If TK/lightning/mind reading is not part of the duel, then breathing isn't either.

They also try to read minds.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that's what I was talking about. I do not consider "stopping" to use force TK or lightning as not part of the duel. If TK/lightning/mind reading is not part of the duel, then breathing isn't either.

They also try to read minds. Because they have stop swinging the swords to throw out a Force attack/defense, I would say that the saber duel and the Force duel are two different components of the same conflict. I would never consider Anakin the superior duelist if he kept beating people with his Force attacks. Same with Sidious and his Lightning. Nor would I consider Dooku a superior Force attacker if he kept beating people with his saber skills. It wasn't his mastery of Force pushing or Lightning that broke through Anakin's defense and lopped off his arm.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Because they have stop swinging the swords to throw out a Force attack/defense, I would say that the saber duel and the Force duel are two different components of the same conflict. I would never consider Anakin the superior duelist if he kept beating people with his Force attacks. Same with Sidious and his Lightning. Nor would I consider Dooku a superior Force attacker if he kept beating people with his saber skills. It wasn't his mastery of Force pushing or Lightning that broke through Anakin's defense and lopped off his arm.

Since they are integral to saber duels, its part of the duel.

Remove punching, mind reading, kicking, strategic use of TK, battle precog, etc. and it is not longer a STAR WARS saber duel. Make stipulations about what can and cannot be part of a saber duel when they were definitely part of the duel, then it ceases to be a Star Wars saber duel: it becomes a fan's definition of what constitutes a saber duel.


To say that certain moments in a saber duel do not count and others do, is arbitrary and illogical. If they use it to win the duel, it's part of a duel.



It's like removing all objects, weapons, tools from John McClane and only allowing him to use his Beretta.

There's my SWVF mentality shining through again. There, saber skills and Force prowess are two different things.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
There's my SWVF mentality shining through again. There, saber skills and Force prowess are two different things.

Saber skills are definitely not even close to being mutually exclusive to the force. In fact, you cannot be adept at it unless you are using the force.

The exception is Grievous who had speed, strength enhancements, and saber combat training, that could easily overwhelm even a Jedi Master. He was originally supposed to be a droid.

No, there were people who were not force sensitive who used sabers, and who taught themself. You dont need the Force to be able to fight with a lightsaber, but you do need it to fight force users.

Originally posted by Pwned
You dont need the Force to be able to fight with a lightsaber, but you do need it to fight force users.

General Greivous begs to differ.

Ok, let me rephrase. You need the Froce to fight Force users if you are a normal being. Cyborgs ment to be able to fight Jedi are alright though.


Thats what I ment in the first place.

Originally posted by Pwned
Ok, let me rephrase. You need the Froce to fight Force users if you are a normal being. Cyborgs ment to be able to fight Jedi are alright though.


Thats what I ment in the first place.

Yeah, you pretty much just restated what I stated.

No. I stated my opinion which in no way aligns itself with yours, by my own statement.


Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!

Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

Clearly, Pwned is not the biggest SW Fanboy, GTFO.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The exception is Grievous who had speed, strength enhancements, and saber combat training, that could easily overwhelm even a Jedi Master. He was originally supposed to be a droid.

Where does it say he was originally suppose to be a droid?

says nothing of that sort on Wookiepedia.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Where does it say he was originally suppose to be a droid?

says nothing of that sort on Wookiepedia.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/generalgrievous/index.html

"Behind the Scenes
General Grievous was developed for Episode III as a powerful new villain on the side of the Confederacy. The initial instructions that Director George Lucas gave the Art Department were very open-ended: "a droid general." From that vague direction, the artists developed a lot of explorations, some purely mechanical, some not, for the look of General Grievous."


I believe that comes from the making of Ep. III.

Originally posted by Robtard
Done. Replace Maul (who apparently sucks ass) with Vader as he was right after be bowed to Sidious and gave him a BJ.


Ahhh I see post money-shot Vader... with man-milk mustache and all? That's the clincher man. Vader soloz.

Originally posted by ares834
I see no reason to see it to apply to the "pre-chopped and burned Vader" but rather the hypothetical Anakin that "hadn't got all beat-up".



Only problem I have with this is that Lucas said Anakin "Could have" defeated Sidious. If it was some far off future Anakin, there would be no "Could/Ifs" about it. Full Potential Anakin most definetely "WOULD" defeat the Emporer.

Maul didn't suck ass.

hey inbox me darth power i bored no ones speaking to me xxxxxplease reply

speak in inbox to me im bored

[speak to me bored in inboxxx

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Maul didn't suck ass.

Of course not.. He was a bad ass.. Its just people who dnt like EpisodeI try to put him down. Although I can understand the players getting more powerful in later movies in comparison (Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker) but thats no reason to start thinking Maul was nothing.

Neway He's very possibly returning for the Clone Wars next year, and Its a good bet he's gna be even more powerful, in league with the more uber players of the time.