KOTOR vs. KOTOR 2

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Black bolt z
Which is the better game and why?

Dr McBeefington
It's not even close. KOTOR was everything KOTOR 2 was not; complete, amazing storyline, etc.

Nephthys
Who can guess what I'm gonna say?

axel_jovan
Revan solos? wink

Nephthys
no

ares834
KotOR was amazing. KotOR 2 sucked.

RagingBoner
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It's not even close. KOTOR was everything KOTOR 2 was not; complete, amazing storyline, etc.

Disagreed. KOTOR and KOTOR II are similar to the dilemma represented by the OT and PT, respectively. KOTOR/OT embodies a straightforward adventure narrative, executed remarkably, extraordinarily well using ancient archetypes. KOTOR II/PT tells a much more complex, darker plot that is executed questionably while expounding on many of these archetypes.

I like KOTOR II's story much more, but KOTOR wins in terms of execution.

Slash_KMC
KOTOR 2 had so much potential, but the lousy ending screwed everything up.

ares834
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
KOTOR 2 had so much potential, but the lousy ending screwed everything up.

This. In fact the Dxun/Onderon sequence was one of the best parts in the entire series.

Pwned
I liked the combat of KOTOR 2 better, was cooler to see the attacks executed.

Storyline, i agree with the OT PT analogy. KOTOR 2s plot was more subtle, with treachery at the end, and clear defined enemies the rest of the time. I quite liked both games though. The end of 2 was a bit ROTJ-esque however.
Unless Vader and the Exile met at a party, and both decided to kill treacherous Sith Lords by some means, then tossing them down an endless shaft into oblivion, causing a large planet/battlestation to asplode..........

Lord Lucien
Weird that this is one of the better Vs. threads to appear in a while. I'm sure most of you know my stance on KotOR II, but I'll gladly list my grievances.




I once said that the characters in the second game weren't as interesting as the ones in the first. Having played through both recently I can say I was wrong: KotOR II has more interesting and developed characters.


They are just overshadowed by how f*cking boring the main storyline was. The first game had a simple storyline: neophyte blank slate chooses his path, develops his character, meets new allies and enemies, readies for the final battle, and determines the fate of the galaxy. Simple, easy, and it worked so well. Even after 20-odd playthroughs, the plot of the first game still had me itching to get to the next planet or encounter. But the second one had me bored--actually bored. My reasons:


A.) The Exile is not an open character. The Revan character was new to everything, needed to learn about everything, had to experience for the first time everything. The Exile already knew so much, and bits of her past were related to us through her and other people. There was no "grow as the character grows" as there was in the first of this RPG series.


B.) The inter-character cutscenes. Related to my point above, there were too many cutscenes that did not involve the main character. So many conversations and bits of story are relayed to me, the player, but not my character. Took me out of the immersion. My character that I built, designed and whom I speak for, knows less things about what's going on than I do. That. Doesn't. Work. The most we ever had of that in the first game were several cutscenes involving Malak, and all they did was establish him as the game's villain and his ruthless personality. Mission and Carth weren't revealing to me, the player, bits about my character's past or making me, the player, think differently about them while my character stays in Limbo. On a similar note, I recall the bit on Nar Shaddaa, when your my main character goes in to the Jekk'Jekk Tarr and without any warning, control switches to solo Atton in the bar being attacked by the two Twi'lek bounty hunters. First time I played through the game I gave up at this point out of anger because I had nothing left in my inventory I could give to him to get through it.


C.) The f*cking cutscenes. Specifically the ones that pop up every time you enter the Ebon Hawk. I don't know about the rest of you, but usually when I arrive at a new planet, I have a tendency to be gone from the ship and am off exploring/fulfilling the story for many hours on end. I rarely ever returned to the ship. But every time you do, there's a new cutscene involving your current roster and they have a tendency to actually tell something that matters. Doesn't help that the first time I played the game I missed the vast majority of them, and I spent I-don't-know-how-long staring at loading screens so I could try to get them all this time. Still doesn't change the fact that most of the grievance that is point B takes place during this time.


D.) The items. Obsidian took the amount of items in the first game and quintupled them. I spent hours trying to sort through all the different items and upgrades, and trying to micromanage how many components I had or who should have what. Something else that took me out of the immersion. When you go to play a game and you actually dread, as I did, interacting with one of the key aspects of it, there's something wrong. The first game wasn't perfect but it was comparatively streamlined. A lot of my initial frustration with this game was borne from the plethora of useless f*cking items.


E.) Related to D--easy money. After I finally got through the task of deciding what items I wanted to keep, I sold the rest. I did this many times throughout the game and by the time I left Onderon for Malachor, I had a personal fortune of half-a-million credits. I remember having to keep an eye on my money in the first game--and saving what I could for a last minute splurge at Mika Dorin's for all the top-quality implants. I was spending thousands of credits at a time buying items just so I could break them down in to more f*cking components for upgrades in the items I didn't sell.


F.) This one's iffy. Maybe it was just my copy of the game, or something wrong with my Xbox, but combat in KotOR II was full of lag. I'm not talking about better animation or mechanics, becuase those were fine. There was a genuine lag to the combat that you'd only see playing online Call of Duty or Halo or something.


G.) It was too damn easy. First time I played the game, I didn't know what I was doing so I died a lot. This time I had the game on Difficult and died twice. Once by accident, the other on purpose. I was a Light Side character with the full beam of heavenly aura shining behind me in the menu. Yet I was still able to use Force Storm twenty times on Dark Jedi Masters or even Sion and never run out of Force Points. I breezed through the Trayus Academy (on Difficult) by just blitzing everyone with Lightning. Barely needed my saber. Conversely, fighting the hordes of Sith and Malak on the Star Forge still has me pausing the game and planning what item and attack to do the next--I even died a couple of times (still! after 20-odd playthroughs).


I've only beaten KotOR II twice with about 10 more failed attempts. The game manages to break my enthusiasm rather quickly and becomes a chore every time I get past Telos. I like to give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt and chalk up KotOR II's many flaws to a rushed production--I've seen how good they can be when it matters, Fallout: New Vegas is proof of that.

Lucius
My main grievances are with the opening of the game. Maybe its just me, but Peragus is ****ing boring.

But relating to what Lucien said, I never felt really close with the Exile. It was more the other characters I found interesting. The Exile was just... there with a past I didn't really know.

Zampanů
thumb up
I had the same problem with non-Exile missions. I could've used a heads up that Atton (who only just got Force powers) suddenly has to fight two bitches. I also struggled with the Jekk Jekk Tar the first time through.

I never had any trouble with money in the first game, though. I basically just kept everything until I could buy Mantle of the Force/Heart of the Guardian to plug into my dualies. Sold the rest and converted everything into thermal detonator form.

I admire you, though, if you bothered with the inventory system on KotOR II. I generally just broke it, again by hoarding items until I was ready to upgrade to top tier. There are too many god damn items, and then there are unexplained effects. What the hell is a Keen?

I complain, but I've still been through it 10-12 times. Sadly, at least half have been duplicated; I still haven't gone Sith Master and Low Influence Visas, which was one of my goals for a while. But really, how many times can you play through PeragusTelos? Even Taris is better than that shit.

ares834
I pretty much agree with all that has been said. On the difficulty subject I had a very difficult time with the first Jedi Master (DS play through) the rest of the game especially Malachor V was far too easy.

Anyway, I always enjoyed Peraus, it had a cool and unique atmosphere for Star Wars. But, like Zampano seems to, found Telos to be an absolute drag.

Lord Lucien
Oh f*ck, I missed one!


H.) The motherf*cking Influence system. I'm the kind of gamer who needs to hear, see, and just generally experience as much of the story and characters as possible--preferably all in one playthrough. A sense of maximizing the story and milking for every tidbit. But I could not do so with the Influence system. I don't know what happened, but I was only able to make the Disciple a Jedi. I couldn't even get his real name out of him. Conversation came to a dead stop with most characters at one point. I literally could not say anything else to Bao-Dur at one point. Or the Disciple. Or Atton. And even though I achieved an :Influence: Success: with Mira, she would just flat-out not become a Jedi. I could repeat the "meditation" prelude with her multiple times in any location, but I got nothing past that.

You would actually have to plan out every conversation with a character to maximize Influence. And I've discovered that guides have been writing for just such an occasion! They're actually necessary, otherwise you're blindly clicking party members in the dark until an option pops up that will gain you points. But they never f*cking did!


How did I miss my biggest beef with the character development? Hated the Influence system!

Nephthys
Bao-Dur is notoriously hard to make a jedi. Yeah, you have to use a walkthrough, because you need every single influence point for him in the game to do it. Atton's actually the easiest. Theres the guy on Nar Shaddar who knows him. After that its ****ing easy as shit. Mira you need to take to Nar Shaddar, to where Kreia was talking to you about ripples in the force, and she'll do it automatically if you've talked to her enough. Again, just go through her conversation tree and shes really easy. Dunno about the Disciple. He can **** off imo.



Critical hit rate is doubled.

Slash_KMC
I've got two other problems with the game:

First, all the conversations between your companions which are totally random and don't contribute anything to the story. Everytime Kreia has a serious conversation with Atton, Bao-Dur or whatever, I go to the characters and they have nothing to say about it.

Secondly, the predictable betrayal of Kreia. Compare the plot twists of the two games and no one will say the second game has a better one. They actually show a cutscene at one point in which Kreia is a Sith and they also make it pretty damn obvious in the Korriban cave, yet the Exile doesn't want to speak to Kreia about it?

In short, I agree with the Canadian, you shouldn't know that much more than your character.

NowYouRemember
Mm. Comparing KOTOR and KOTOR II and pitting them against one another is like taking one animal and cutting it in half from top and bottom and trying to decide which part is better.

They both felt like two parts of the same story/coin to me.

They also follow the rule of Drama: Bright and sunny beginning, dark and cold middle and bright and sunny ending.

'Course these are just one and two and have followed one and two.

But that's the point. They were created with two separate atmospheres intrinsically.

What's really impressive is that each part was created by two separate development teams with two different sets of ideas, and somehow it works when fit together.

Revan was an interesting character, as was the other supporting heroes and villains.
I liked how Canderous Ordo was essentially Ron Perlman's character from Alien Resurrection.
I found it amusing how once, when I had come across a Bioware thread discussing who would play Ordo in a film, apparently there were droves of people too stupid to realize who he was obviously based off of.

He looks the same, wears the same clothes and even has a very similar voice.
Only one user suggested Perlman, and someone else went, "Oh man that would be a great pick!"
roll eyes (sarcastic)

The Exile was a bit dull, and I suppose they never got to develop her enough before the game's forced release date.
The other supporting characters were great.
I liked Atton alot and grew to appreciate Kreia.

I found the three Sith Lord's to be interesting: A Sith Lord that is essentially immortal and with a thick Scottish accent (the only one that I know of) so I thought that was original.
Traya/Kreia proved to be an interesting and worthy adversary.

And of course, Nihilus, who I thought was a very subtle yet well put-together character.
I find it amusing that most people aren't aware he only speaks the Sith language and for some reason, people can't listen to the Sith holocrons in Atris' study and hear him speak and be able to audibly make a mental connection.
Tone deaf, I suppose.

They both make for very good games, actually, I'd say the best Star Wars XBox games alongside the RotS Game and Battle Front II.
But they both seem to be very much akin to a romantically-close couple, or two pieces of the same organism.
So judging each against the other seems somewhat pointless. big grin

truejedi
i mean, how about the obvious, not finished?

Nothing made me madder than the time I had to fight Hanharr with bounty hunter chic., I died, and the scene just cuts back to the exile like nothing happened....

Nephthys
Well thats more that you suck than the game being bad. erm

truejedi
well, the point being it was a one-time shot. I couldn't reload, and never heard what happened to Hanharr.... and Traya STILL gave me a speech about how bounty hunter chick would do... whatever it was at the end.

(despite the fact that i knew she was dead)

Nephthys
Sounds like a bug.

truejedi
yeah, i kept running into those till i quit. and the game certainly wasn't worth replaying, so i didn't do that either.

Lord Lucien
I've never wound up with Hanharr in my party so I don't know what happens with him. But that little spat between him and Mira--what was the point of it? I get to Malachor after Hanharr's been gone most of the game and he turns up, I beat him, and then... nothing. That sidestory amounted to nothing.

Nephthys
It's the end of Mira's character arc. She can either choose to kill him, or spare him yet again.

Also, get Hanharr in your party. He's awesome. Easily the best written Wookie in the whole mythos. It's like having Jason Vorhees as a playable character.

Lord Lucien
I'll be going Dark Side if I ever play it again. Mira's story felt like it fell flat. Like it was building up to something extremely relevant to the overall story (hence, Kreia's involvement) like Visas' role against Nihilus. But it just wound up those two fighting. And in that game, one more fight doesn't equal good story.

Nephthys
Meh, Kotor 2's characters still shit all over Kotors imo. The only one I preferred from the old cast was Canderous, who's better than his future self cuz he tells awesome mcwin war stories.

If that Kotor 2 restoration project is ever finished Kotor2's gonna rape the shit out of Kotor. Tis awesome.

RagingBoner
Originally posted by Nephthys
Easily the best written Wookie in the whole mythos.

Yep, because darker = cooler. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You are so obviously homosexualemo.

Stealth Moose
Well, it's been awhile since I played the second game but I generally beat the tar out of it, and I'm replaying the first (but with mods, because **** Taris). My opinion is this:

Story:

1. New character gets embroiled in some Serious Shit(tm). Goes on a quest to take down the Big Bad with a band of misfits. Finds out he's really a badass the whole time, but he forgot, which is like playing Clue and finding out you killed the victim but you had no recollection. Pivotal scene where you decide to be truly dark or light, and then hasty conclusion complete with Epic Battle.

2. You start off in a boring locked down mining asteroid, finding out that there's a bounty on your ass and your former Jedi teacher is entirely strange. You then set off on a quest to pull the Jedi circle out from under their beds so you can fight off Sith Lords who cannot be killed without extreme plot devices. You manage to get the Jedi killed, but thankfully you are the plot device for both Sith Lords and you overcome them. And then you own your teacher before riding off into the sunset. Plus, this is all dark and shit.

Characters:

1. Carth is kinda whiny, but his voice actor is talented so you can tend to overlook the fact that he's worse off than a woman left at the altar. Bastila wants you, but she's kind of stuck up. Mission is bratty and worthless after Lower City, and only Jolee and Canderous hold any interest because they have interesting backstories. Revan is kind of a blank slate in many ways, but he's badass, and Malak is a prick. The droids, of course, rule.

2. Atton is mysterious and cranky, and has some interesting training. He's more than meets the eye and it's difficult pulling the truth out. Kreia is also cranky and mysterious, but her motivations are obvious, as was pointed out, and you find it hard to like her. The Handmaiden is naive, but fun to manipulate, while the Disciple sucks hardcore and it's a ***** to get any influence with him. And he's not exactly fun to talk to anyways. Mira seems like she might be deep, but it's never explored, and Mandalore doesn't get enough exposure. Hanharr sucks because **** Wookiees or anything that doesn't speak Basic in a Star Wars game. The Sith Lords are kind of boring because they cannot be construed as fallen or formerly good guys; Sion is a Franken-Sith with no real backstory other than he became evil at some point and Nihilus could very well be Barney under that mask and it'd be deeper than the story he's really given. The droids, as expected, rule.

Gameplay:

1. NWN 1.5. On the console, it's painful, but the PC is very fun to play. Exactly what you expect of a NWN clone with SW abilities.

2. Great updates, including prestige classes, new Feats and abilities, lightsaber fighting styles, better robes, etc. 2 stomps all over the first one with tons of improvements, no more to be said.

Best Moment In-Game:

1. Finding out you are Revan.

2. Getting the **** off of Peragus so you can not be playing one character at a time. (Force suggesting that one guy to jump into space on Nar Shadaa comes second)

Worst Moment In-Game:

1. Getting lost on Dantooine and having to do all those stupid FedEx quests there.

2. Leaving Peragus to find you're stuck on Telos for another two hours.

Aspect which most needs improvement:

1. Lacking advanced skills and stats with crappy level cap. Combat was simply too boring.

2. Missing entire planets and segments.

RagingBoner
You didn't answer the fundamental question, though. Which makes you, sir, an *******.

edit: I lol'd at Barney.

Stealth Moose
Hm, I like both. 2 is darker, has better gameplay mechanics and slightly more interesting characters, but 1 has a better protagonist and antagonist, and Taris >>>>>> Peragus/Telos any day.

Zampanů
If you can read it as a loving tribute to bad fanfic (which the author assures us it is meant to be) then Revan is the best character.

Nephthys
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Yep, because darker = cooler. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You are so obviously homosexualemo.

No, well written = well written.

Its almost as if Chris Avellone played Kotor and thought, 'God this wookie is bland as ****. Imma make a wookie thats the complete opposite of that.' Which to be fair he probably did. Hanhaar's pretty much a deconstruction of the whole 'life-debt' thing that Zaalbar had going on.

Thats > every other wookie I can name.

Lucius
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, well written = well written.

Its almost as if Chris Avellone played Kotor and thought, 'God this wookie is bland as ****. Imma make a wookie thats the complete opposite of that.' Which to be fair he probably did. Hanhaar's pretty much a deconstruction of the whole 'life-debt' thing that Zaalbar had going on.

Thats > every other wookie I can name.

That's Avellone's trademark, deconstructing tropes and writing badass games like Planescape: Torment

Lord Lucien
I can't think of any other interesting Wookiee character. And don't say it, because f*ck Chewbacca.

Slash_KMC
Chewbacca's character is that of a huge dog.

Allankles
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, well written = well written.

Its almost as if Chris Avellone played Kotor and thought, 'God this wookie is bland as ****. Imma make a wookie thats the complete opposite of that.' Which to be fair he probably did. Hanhaar's pretty much a deconstruction of the whole 'life-debt' thing that Zaalbar had going on.

Thats > every other wookie I can name.

Didn't like Hanhaar but he was definitely a well realized character. He lived by very harsh and stark principles. A great ally for a philosophical dark sider.

As for the thread: Kotor 2's characters and the superior script made it a little better than Kotor for me.

I think both games had dull beginnings. Peragus + the first stage of Telos for Kotor 2 and Taris for Kotor.

The basic plot device structure of both games were also similar: Star Maps and Lost Jedi. But Kotor 2's structure was a little more plausible or involved less suspension of belief - it's puzzling that Malak never destroyed the Star Maps.

All in all Kotor 2 was slightly better.

NTJack0
I find this relevant.

KOTOR 2 could've been amazing if it wasn't rushed out and properly finished.

Star Geek
First Post!

Between the two of them, I can't pick a favorite. It really came down to 4 major differences.

Gameplay: I much preferred the gameplay in KOTOR II. The Force powers were much improved, with newer, and more advanced Force Powers. The lightsaber forms also were useful. The Prestige classes were something that I feel provided more character development, as well as enhanced the Character's abilities.

Influence: Again I liked KOTOR II more in this. With KOTOR, it was not difficult to develop NPCs, and to determine their backstories. In less than 10 hours, I found it possible to complete the quests about Bastila, Carth, Mission, Juhani, and Canderous. In KOTOR II on the other hand, you have to pay attention to character personalities, and gain influence with them to develop them. If you did not pay attention to their personalities, or were a complete jerk to them, then they would not progress. In the first one, you could be extremely rude to the NPCs, and still complete their quests.

DS/LS development: Again, I must say KOTOR II was superior. KOTOR II revolved around you accepting/rejecting Kreia's teachings. KOTOR I was, in my opinion, a bit lacking in this regard. It was basically just 'slap the little kid or give him food'. Much more obvious Dark/Light progression. In KOTOR II, there were many times where you cannot tell what is light side and what is dark side, and have to use your best judgement.

Storyline: This is where KOTOR I really strikes back. The storyline of KOTOR I is much better than the storyline of KOTOR II. The revelation by Malak that you are actually Revan is so unexpected, but fits in so well with the storyline that it will easily go down in Star Wars video game history. All of the sudden plot twists, side quests, and depth of the character storyline is much greater than KOTOR II. KOTOR II was so expected that once you met all the characters, you could pretty much figure out what the rest of the plot was. In KOTOR I, there was basically three different parts to it - Taris (Sort of boring, but quick if you know what you're doing), Main Quests (Heck of a lot of fun, and huge character development), and Final Quests (You know the end is close, you know what it's going to come down to, but still a lot of fun). The way these were designed was close to perfect. KOTOR II did sort of have three parts, but they weren't as in depth as KOTOR I. With KOTOR II, it was Initiation (Really boring levels), Main Quests (How did Atris manage to get a list of the locations that the other Jedi were at, anyway), and the Final Battle (Way too easy to beat Kreia).

KOTOR II did win in three of the four categories, but the storyline of KOTOR I was so superior that I can't name a favorite. They were both great games.

SG

L30nidas
KOTOR is still my favorite RPG. KOTOR 2 was a waste of 10$ on Steam.

Nephthys
Imma say it, I dread redoing Taris more than Paragus. Its way longer. People find Paragus boring but thats only because they've already beaten it. That first time you do it where its all creepy and you have no idea whats going on, is a great opening imo.

Tzeentch._
It bored the shit out of me the first time I played it, tbh. I knew that I'd hate the **** out of Atton the very moment he opened his whiny mouth.

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