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Who do you think is one of the most powerful sith
first is clearly revan.

Son, get off of Revan's nuts. Ima start calling you Tarzan, the way you're swinging from his ball sack.

Sidious takes the top spot.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Sidious takes the top spot. Sidious is by no means the most powerful sith.

As far as sheer power goes, the top spots are

1: Nihilus or Bane
2: Nihilus or Bane
3: Exar Kun
4: Vader










































Everyone else.

What puts Darth "80% of Sidious" Vader above Sidious?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Sidious is by no means the most powerful sith.

As far as sheer power goes, the top spots are

1: Nihilus or Bane
2: Nihilus or Bane
3: Exar Kun
4: Vader



Everyone else.

Honestly, because of the proof we've seen of Nihilus being more powerful than Sid's, it's ovbious to even most retards that Nihilus is on top.

But wouldn't be Palpy be next afterwards? I don't see any form of Bane beating DE Sids.
Same with Kun and Vader.

I think I know who's number one!

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
Honestly, because of the proof we've seen of Nihilus being more powerful than Sid's, it's ovbious to even most retards that Nihilus is on top.

But wouldn't be Palpy be next afterwards? I don't see any form of Bane beating DE Sids.
Same with Kun and Vader. Sidious isn't all that powerful as sith go. Hes pretty good. But compared to vabe he is garbage.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I think I know who's number one!

That's hardly modest of you.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Sidious isn't all that powerful as sith go. Hes pretty good. But compared to vabe he is garbage.

Vabe?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Sidious isn't all that powerful as sith go. Hes pretty good. But compared to vabe he is garbage.

What about the Force Storm, and beating a barely developed Luke Skywalker?

And fighting Mace Windu at bloggling speeds only to get his ass kicked?

Surely these must be the criteria for what would be the most powerful Sith Lord.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
it's ovbious to even most retards that Nihilus is on top.

Irony.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
What about the Force Storm, and beating a barely developed Luke Skywalker?

And fighting Mace Windu at bloggling speeds only to get his ass kicked?

Surely these must be the criteria for what would be the most powerful Sith Lord.



Barely developed? He was a master Vader like potential and incredible learning speeds. Not to mention, Luke had help from Leia's BM.

You're then using a single fight 30 years prior to base your ridiculous decision on. ROTS Sidious was extremely powerful but he was nowhere near the greatest lightsaber duelist and it's widely known that Vaapad counters the effects of the dark side.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
it's ovbious to even most retards that Nihilus is on top.



But not all, I see.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
But not all, I see.

At least there's one who agrees with you, ovbiously.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Barely developed? He was a master Vader like potential and incredible learning speeds. Not to mention, Luke had help from Leia's BM.

You're then using a single fight 30 years prior to base your ridiculous decision on. ROTS Sidious was extremely powerful but he was nowhere near the greatest lightsaber duelist and it's widely known that Vaapad counters the effects of the dark side.

Folks probably shouldn't use his fight with Mace as an example, then.

And I think I do remember Leia's bowl movement distracting Sid's suddenly and allowing Luke to gain the upper hand.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
Folks probably shouldn't use his fight with Mace as an example, then.

And I think I do remember Leia's bowl movement distracting Sid's suddenly and allowing Luke to gain the upper hand.

boring

Originally posted by RagingBoner
At least there's one who agrees with you, ovbiously.









You put all three of your brain cells together for that, didn't you?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
boring

I am bored, actually.

no

maybe

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Vabe? Bane. Sorry.

1. Sidious
2. Nihilus (sorta)
3. Caeuds
4. Exar Kun
5. Vader
6. Zannah
7. Bane
8. Dooku


The rest of the scrubs.

I said "sorta" for Nihilus, because while he is powerful he has no control over his abilties. Rather they control him, or at least that was the vibe I got from the game. Also I expect Revan to be in this list when his novel comes out.

Ayn Rand.

Who is John Galt?

1. Sidious
2. Caedus
3. Bane

Originally posted by truejedi
1. Sidious
2. Caedus
3. Bane

You should definitely include Nihilus there, TJ, perhaps at number two. Think about it: Traya said that the Sith Lords of her time (which include Nihilus) could have led to the death of the entire galaxy; Visas said that Nihilus could perhaps eventually kill all life with his mere presence; and Colonel Tobin said the Exile was a dust mote compared to Nihilus.

That's saying a lot.

I don't think Traya or Tobin can be trusted. Their agenda was: 1. to get the exile to save the galaxy (err.. kill nihilus cause Traya already got her force stripped trying to do it.)

2. Tobin was trying to get the exile to NOT kill his new boss.

3. Visas wasn't sure WHAT nihilus was capable of.

I need an OOU source before i'm going to buy that. or even some canon feats....

I buy the Star Destroyer thing. I buy the force drain, but I don't believe it is instantaneous, or can be used in combat to kill an individual.

besides that, I don't know. The "death of the galaxy" thing sounds a bit sketchy, considering nihilus is so easy to kill.

To be fair to his poor combat performance, it was during a moment when he was already weakened by lack of feeding, f*cking up the attempt on Exile, and Visas' "interrupted LAN connection" or whatever.

In terms of evidence, many of the claims about Nihilus's immense telekinesis have been exaggerated.

There has been no conclusive proof that Nihilus tore his entire fleet from the mass shadows of Malachor V, but even if that was the case, Malachor is a dark side nexus that imbues the Sith with great strength. I'm looking into alternatives, but I will definitely concede that the calculations provided by Lucius definitely point at high-end telekinetic power.

With that said, none of that telekinesis is brought to bear against the Exile and company when it clearly would have aided him. And we see in the matter of Starkiller vs. Palpatine that a person with superior telekinetic feats can be defeated by another Force-user.

The Force drain is a problem because we never see Nihilus use it against a prepared, focused adversary. Traya was forced to split her attention between Nihilus and the even more ferocious, aggressive Sion; there has been no proof offered that the Jedi enclave on Katarr was prepared for the attack; and Nihilus stunned the Jedi Exile and her companions before using the attack. Why?

That said, the evidence I provided make a strong, undeniable case for Nihilus being number two.

And according to Zamp., Nihilus is a dark side nexus just like Palpatine.

i'm still not convinced that was the same drain, nor that traya is a worthy foe. (she did get *****-slapped by sion after-all...)

1. Revan
2. Marka Ragnos
3. Their child (RR, or Revan Ragnos Jr)
4. Nihilus
5. Exar Kun
6. Pure Unadulterated Anakin Chosen by the Heavens If He Had Had a Thousand Years of Training and Some Steroids
7. Kreia
8. One of the Sith extras in panel four of DLotS comics.
9. Sion
10. Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
In terms of evidence, many of the claims about Nihilus's immense telekinesis have been exaggerated.




EDIT: That actually brightened up my night, so thank you.

Your nights must be very dull then.

1. Sids
2. N.
3. Bane
4. Caedus
5. Exar Kun
6. Revan (?)
7. Vader
8. Dooku
9. Zannah
10. Krayt

I know jack about Ragnos or Sadow, so they are not on my list.

I would never have Caedus #2, despite the PIS/CIS.

In no particular order:

Marka Ragnos
Naga Sadow
Ludo Kressh
Lord Simus
Darth Sion
Darth Nihilus
Darth Bane
Darth Zannah
Exar Kun
Darth Traya? Ulic-Qel Droma? Kas'im? Darth Caedus? Freedon Nadd? Darth Sidious?

Lol yes, lets just automatically put the Ancient Sith above all.

he has probably never seen the old trilogy or the new trilogy, so he knows nothing about sidious...

Why is almost everyone here stupid?

Sidious is in no means, in no way, the most powerful sith.

he may be the smartest. But in power there is no damn way.

actually, yeah he is.

read:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=508764&highlight=sidious+essay+forumid%3A6


and starting a post "Why is everyone here stupid?" is a lovely way to avoid getting flamed, let me tell you.

Originally posted by truejedi
actually, yeah he is.

read:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=508764&highlight=sidious+essay+forumid%3A6


and starting a post "Why is everyone here stupid?" is a lovely way to avoid getting flamed, let me tell you. I'm not going to read some 100,000 characters of sidious wank.

His feats show him as a powerful sith. The most powerful? No chance in hell. He'd have to be on a really good day to get in the top 10 to be honest.

something is wrong with you.

hint it's your brain

Out of curiosity what are peoples' thoughts on the stuff we see in the movies from the likes of Sidious (specifically where they appear to demonstrate a certain amount of effort that at times borders on a struggle, with a magnitude of energy that I believe we can all agree is comparatively speaking pretty mild, a quick example being Yoda's struggle with moving a pillar after his duel with Dooku), and how would you say it fits in with whatever your view of Sidious may be?

Originally posted by truejedi
something is wrong with you.

hint it's your brain Sidious has just never shown anywhere near the power that bane or nihilus has. He even said himself that vader would become more powerful than him. And he did....

vader never became more powerful than Sidious: GL fact. (80 percent of sidious, in fact)

and I disagree, when has Bane ever shown power on the magnitude of a force storm?

You'd I'd say that since the movies are the highest canon these feats should not be ignored under any circumstances. Therefore by extrapolating the effort involved, I find it reasonable to deduce that Yoda can at best lift maybe 10 tonnes with the Force, Sidious perhaps a bit more. Sidious and Yoda are therefore at best average, but curtainly trailing behind ubermensch like Darth Bane. Also they are old, so that is also funny.

Now tell me, what are truejedi's thoughts on the matter?

Truejedi has thoughts!?


http://avatars.postiton.net/avatars/Moe-Horrified.jpg

well, the problem being your definition of "struggling". I don't see a struggly from Yoda to move the pillar, he just can't move the pillar and chase dooku down at the same time. Where is the struggle? At 900 he lifts the xwing without a lot of effort. What are you talking about?

also seen onscreen: Slamming landing craft together.

Rumors of Yoda's "Struggling TK" are greatly exaggerated.

3UQ-pHa87Gc

Skip to 4:20

He performs the action in a far from timely manner, his facial expression is of such a manner that denotes a heavy strain being felt, his body visibly shakes throughout, all of which would suggest that it was a significant effort on his part to move the pillar away from Anakin and Obi-Wan.

i'm sorry, that didn't look like a struggle to me. He is way too calm about it to be much of a struggle...

So it is YOUR perception that he is struggling versus MY percenption, and a gigantic mass of evidence from other places in the movies and EU that suggests he wouldn't struggle with such a thing.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
I'm not going to read some 100,000 characters of sidious wank.

His feats show him as a powerful sith. The most powerful? No chance in hell. He'd have to be on a really good day to get in the top 10 to be honest.

Seriously, you're not even going to read the proof that dismisses your claims?

I'll ask Gideon to use smaller words and include colorful pictures in his essay next time.

Uhmmmm... let me think here... NO, NO HE DIDN'T!! Vader NEVER reached his potential.Originally posted by Nephthys
You'd I'd say that since the movies are the highest canon these feats should not be ignored under any circumstances. Therefore by extrapolating the effort involved, I find it reasonable to deduce that Yoda can at best lift maybe 10 tonnes with the Force, Sidious perhaps a bit more. Sidious and Yoda are therefore at best average, but curtainly trailing behind ubermensch like Darth Bane. Also they are old, so that is also funny.

Well, since Bane isn't in any of the movies, it would be logical to compare his feats (C-canon) to Yoda's feats from sources other than the movies (i.e. The Clone Wars mini - T-canon). Yoda shows no signs of struggling when slamming the two landin craft together, as a matter of fact, it looked outright easy.

No, it is MY analysis of his manner with respect to how effort is generally visually demonstrated by a person, both in actuality, and as far as how the director would choose to convey that, versus YOUR claim that it doesn't look like a struggle to YOU coupled with an incredibly inept observation on your part.

The physical response on his part heavily indicates that a struggle was taking place due to the irregularity of it with respect to his usual movements and manner in say, a resting state, not to mention the fact that it's heavily emblematic of how a struggle would generally be depicted, and is generally demonstrated. The amount of time that it took is heavily indicative that a struggle was taking place due to the fact that his priority, by all available evidence and reason, would be to catch up with Dooku and he would realistically perform the action as quickly as possible to maximise the possibility that he would be able to meet his objective.

Your observation that he was calm conflicts with the manner of his facial expression, both with respect to how it usually is in times of calm, and with how the director would choose to depict it if he wanted to make it look at all realistic with respect to how humanoid individuals generally express a state of calm, which by all available evidence is exactly how he generally has the character express himself.

3UQ-pHa87Gc



Here, check out this clip. The pertininent part starts at 4:20. Dooku drops a pillar, Yoda reaches out, grabs, it, pushes it to the ground. No hesitation, not even a pause in his motions. There is one moment when he has stopped its pause, where he goes. "hmmm..." as though deciding where to drop it, then he does so.

I'm really not seeing the struggle.

Originally posted by Iden Enserath
No, it is MY analysis of his manner with respect to how effort is generally visually demonstrated by a person, both in actuality, and as far as how the director would choose to convey that, versus YOUR claim that it doesn't look like a struggle to YOU coupled with an incredibly inept observation on your part.

The physical response on his part heavily indicates that a struggle was taking place due to the irregularity of it with respect to his usual movements and manner in say, a resting state, not to mention the fact that it's heavily emblematic of how a struggle would generally be depicted, and is generally demonstrated. The amount of time that it took is heavily indicative that a struggle was taking place due to the fact that his priority, by all available evidence and reason, would be to catch up with Dooku and he would realistically perform the action as quickly as possible to maximise the possibility that he would be able to meet his objective.

Your observation that he was calm conflicts with the manner of his facial expression, both with respect to how it usually is in times of calm, and with how the director would choose to depict it if he wanted to make it look at all realistic with respect to how humanoid individuals generally express a state of calm, which by all available evidence is exactly how he generally has the character express himself.

Yoda is humanoid? You can see Yoda making those faces while WALKING in various places in the trilogy. Dude's a cripple, doesn't mean you have to dismiss him as weak. The entire thing, grabbing the pillar, stopping its fall, moving it to safety, takes a total of: 20 seconds. how is that a struggle? If his arms were shaking, that is one thing, but his aren't, he is merely moving them. Closing his eyes? He does that every time he uses the force.

To be fair, he does seem like he was stuggling to me too as well. He looks like he's shaking through most of it.

Pg. 349, AOTC: "Yoda grabbed the crane and hed it fast, but in doing so, he had to release Dooku. The Count wasted no time, sprinting away, leaping up the ramp to his sail ship. As Yoda began to move the fallen crane harmlessly aside, the sail ship's engine roared to life, and all three Jedi watched helplessly as Count Dooku blasted away."


Where is the struggle?

Movie > book.

props for getting the actual page quote though. Thats some dedication.

Also why would it be a low feat to struggle with it?

That thing probably weighed over 100 tons. Its not like he would be looked down upon to struggle witht that.

right, but book supplements the movie: I was actually looking for some evidence showing a struggle.. that would have helped you. I found none.

There are plenty of places in the mythos where Yoda moves more, so evidence is mounting against an appearance of a struggle. (especially since it doesn't really appear that he is struggling.)

1. Was my embedded youtube video not good enough for you that you had to post your own? Are you telling me that I'm dealing with a youtube video snob here, truejedi? Is that what you're telling me?

2. The question of whether he hesitated or whether there was a pause in his motions is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is whether a signficant degree of effort was demonstrated once he took action and actively applied his power, something you still haven't at all addressed in a precise and exact manner.

3. Another incredibly inept observation on your part. I expanded on the points I made and explained them in further detail because apparently it wasn't clear enough for everyone the first time. I did not just repeat my position without adding anything new; conversely, neither did you.

Originally posted by truejedi
Pg. 349, AOTC: "Yoda grabbed the crane and hed it fast, but in doing so, he had to release Dooku. The Count wasted no time, sprinting away, leaping up the ramp to his sail ship. As Yoda began to move the fallen crane harmlessly aside, the sail ship's engine roared to life, and all three Jedi watched helplessly as Count Dooku blasted away."


Where is the struggle?

That the novel doesn't elaborate in such a manner that is indicative of it being a struggle does not mean that it deifnitely wasn't, particularly when another source does "elaborate" in such a manner that gives such an indication.

Damn ppl! Don't compare a novelized feat to a movie feat. Apples to oranges. At least compare Yoda's T-canon showings to Bane's (and others) C-canon showings.

i addressed what you said Iden. He isn't shaking, he closes his eyes... he makes faces like he is constipated. Very common behavior for Yoda. I sound snide when I say that, but I mean it. It's true.

Originally posted by truejedi
Yoda is humanoid?

As far as the elements of his face that would determine his expression, yes.



Which also happens to be a tremendous effort for him when he's not using the Force to assist him, considering the state of his physical body. So, you've managed to point out that he makes the same facial expression during another action that would require a huge effort on his part to somehow discredit my claim that the facial expression denotes a tremendous effort. Good job.



"Struggle" is a relative term, but given the telekinetic feats we've seen him do outside of the movies, the effort it denotes does not seem at all realistic if we assume that his other showings are a reliable reflection of how he actually is.



Yes they are.



Rapidly in an irregular manner across minimal distances, i.e. "shaking".



Nobody mentioned closing his eyes.

so anyway Neb, does that answer your question about my take on the subject? I just don't buy a "struggle" Especially with the mountain of evidence from the movies and other EU showing that he wouldn't struggle in such a situation. You are clearly seeing something from that AOTC scene that I'm not. even if you WERE right, and I was wrong, which i'm not admitting by any means, I would call it an aberration, and not a norm, or else easily explained because he was exhausted after fighting dooku...

Everything I've referred to from the video is there to be seen, and it all is highly suggestive of an immense effort being taken. Given that he gives similar demonstrations throughout the movies, such as his telekinetic battle with Sidious, it's hardly an anomalous demonstration, either. Regarding his lifting of the X-Wing in ESB that people have brought up, not only is the X-Wing in all likelihood not as heavy as the giant crane, but Yoda doesn't do that in a particularly timely fashion either, and there's certainly nothing to suggest that it was done in an effortless manner. Given that Yoda was not being depicted by visual effects either meant that it wasn't realistically possible for him to be as expressive as would otherwise denote such an expenditure of effort as he was in AotC.

The fact of the matter remains that it has long been established that the Expanded Universe doesn't paint a neccessarily reliable picture of Star Wars canon, and that the best way to determine how reliable it is on a case by case basis is to first and foremost see how it fits in with sources of higher forms of canon, as well as the majority of sources and the most recent of sources. In this particular case, stuff like Yoda smashing those two landing carriers together does not at all fit in realistically and reasonably with the movies' depiction of his abilities. You are not technically in a position to assert that anything from the Expanded Universe is a necessarily true reflection of Star Wars canon, and in this case the means by which we could argue as much do not in any way favour your position.

Nebwuffles, my appreciation for your support against the German notwithstanding, are you sure you're not being a little exclusive in your analysis?

The only "effort" it took from Yoda was stopping the pillar's fall. Holding the pillar in mid-air was not a problem for Yoda at all. In fact, Yoda seemed calm once he had the pillar levitating after he stopped it's fall.

It wasn't so much that the pillar was too heavy for Yoda to lift. The effort could have came from the sudden surprise and speed in which Dooku toppled it.

Besides, we see Yoda lift an X-wing out of a swamp with ease in ESB, and even overpower Palpatine (who was strong enough to levitate and rip many senate pods from durasteel restraints) with a force push.

Originally posted by Iden Enserath
Everything I've referred to from the video is there to be seen, and it all is highly suggestive of an immense effort being taken. Given that he gives similar demonstrations throughout the movies, such as his telekinetic battle with Sidious, it's hardly an anomalous demonstration, either. Regarding his lifting of the X-Wing in ESB that people have brought up, not only is the X-Wing in all likelihood not as heavy as the giant crane, but Yoda doesn't do that in a particularly timely fashion either, and there's certainly nothing to suggest that it was done in an effortless manner. Given that Yoda was not being depicted by visual effects either meant that it wasn't realistically possible for him to be as expressive as would otherwise denote such an expenditure of effort as he was in AotC.

The fact of the matter remains that it has long been established that the Expanded Universe doesn't paint a neccessarily reliable picture of Star Wars canon, and that the best way to determine how reliable it is on a case by case basis is to first and foremost see how it fits in with sources of higher forms of canon, as well as the majority of sources and the most recent of sources. In this particular case, stuff like Yoda smashing those two landing carriers together does not at all fit in realistically and reasonably with the movies' depiction of his abilities. You are not technically in a position to assert that anything from the Expanded Universe is a necessarily true reflection of Star Wars canon, and in this case the means by which we could argue as much do not in any way favour your position.

everything suggests the feat with the xwing AND with sidious was pretty effortless..... I'm really thinking you are seeing what you WANT to see there.... A little projection, if you will.

Be careful too, because if Yoda smashing landing craft together, is "completely out of the scope of canon" than equally so is Nihilus moving a star destroyer...

Leland Chee has already explained that, at least in the case of movement, there is no contradiction between what we see in the EU and the films. Furthermore, George Lucas was heavily involved in the production of The Force Unleashed and its sequels. In addition, he was the mastermind of both Clone Wars television series. Nai produced a quote from Lucas's commentary in the 2003, where Lucas claims that the displays of power therein were consistent with how he imaged "real Jedi" acting. As far as the 2008- series, Lucas has been identified as the man in charge of all episode concepts, and all ideas must be approved by him.

He's fickle, but even the movies are subservient to Lucas's wishes. And if those wishes are manifest in lesser canon, then so be it.

I thought I was sure but your presence here has filled me with a deep sense of dread at the idea that I may have overlooked something, so, not entirely sure? In all seriousness though nothing else would appear to conflict with the evidence in the video that's heavily suggestive of substantial effort, and with regards to being exhausted to such an extent from his duel with Dooku, the idea that a brief Force engagement and a minute long lightsaber duel left him in such a state of exhaustion, regardless of how Force-intensive Yoda's lightsaber style is, doesn't sound entirely realistic given we've seen him fight at much greater lengths and not display any real sign of exhaustion afterwards, not to mention the fact that the EU feats in question that I've referred to have themselves often occured after he's been in battle at even greater lengths, such as when he smashed the two landing carriers together which occured after he'd been fighting through hordes of enemies for a large duration of time.

If I may break in, but I find it interesting that you would say that:

Originally posted by Iden Enserath
In all seriousness though nothing else would appear to conflict with the evidence in the video that's heavily suggestive of substantial effort,

It seems as if you are trying to profess your interpretation of an event as an indisputable fact.

It was already pointed out that the novel completes the picture of that fight, and that it nowhere states that Yoda had difficulty with TK-ing that pillar.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
If I may break in, but I find it interesting that you would say that:



It seems as if you are trying to profess your interpretation of an event as an indisputable fact.

For the benefit of the mentally handicapped:

"In all seriousness though nothing else would appear to conflict with the evidence in the video that's heavily suggestive of substantial effort,"



Pg. 349, AOTC: "Yoda grabbed the crane and hed it fast, but in doing so, he had to release Dooku. The Count wasted no time, sprinting away, leaping up the ramp to his sail ship. As Yoda began to move the fallen crane harmlessly aside, the sail ship's engine roared to life, and all three Jedi watched helplessly as Count Dooku blasted away."

As can be seen, not only does the novel not go into perfect detail of the segment of the fight in question, but it goes into even less detail than can be visually ascertained from the source that was already being used.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"That the novel doesn't elaborate in such a manner that is indicative of it being a struggle does not mean that it definitely wasn't, particularly when another source does "elaborate" in such a manner that gives such an indication."

Why is this even being discussed?Originally posted by Black bolt z
Also why would it be a low feat to struggle with it?

That thing probably weighed over 100 tons. Its not like he would be looked down upon to struggle witht that.

I'd estimate about 60 tonnes myself. Does anybody know of what metal/of what probable metal/of what probable density the crain was made of?

Regardless, it's not a question of "looking down upon" Yoda struggling with moving the crain, but a question of how reliable his EU demonstrations where he performs astronomically greater feats are in light of the aforementioned demonstration, which would appear to be inconsistent with the picture the movies paint of his abilities.

Not to mention, with respect to the higher end levels of telekinesis/Force Powers in general that we've seen in the mythos, it is a particularly pathetic display of power. We've seen Force Users enter the realm of planets and things such as wormholes, supernovae and black holes with their powers. Manipulating an object that weighs approximately 100 tonnes would be incredibly mild in comparison, wouldn't you say?

All I know is that SW metals are tens of thousands of times stronger than steel (Durasteel is something like 300,000 x stronger). I dunno if that makes them heavier or whathaveyou, but thats all I got.

Originally posted by Nephthys
All I know is that SW metals are tens of thousands of times stronger than steel (Durasteel is something like 300,000 x stronger). I dunno if that makes them heavier or whathaveyou, but thats all I got. I don't think its heavier.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Leland Chee has already explained that, at least in the case of movement, there is no contradiction between what we see in the EU and the films.

Wow just realised I like totally posted on that same page...

Zampano is online.

He will know.

Originally posted by Iden Enserath
Not to mention, with respect to the higher end levels of telekinesis/Force Powers in general that we've seen in the mythos, it is a particularly pathetic display of power. We've seen Force Users enter the realm of planets and things such as wormholes, supernovae and black holes with their powers. Manipulating an object that weighs approximately 100 tonnes would be incredibly mild in comparison, wouldn't you say?

Not at all. Sure some have it beat. But very few have. Consdier your own examples, Sidious is the only known Sith capable of creating worm-holes. The Supernova are created through the use of an artifact, and when artifacts are removed from said Sith they resoprt to throwing bircks at one another. And Luke and Kyp are the only ones shpwn capable of manipulating black holes because they arebeasts in the force, I'd also throw Starkiller up there as well.

Ultiamtely there are very few Jedi/Sith who have shown powers that greatly eclipse said feat.



I don't see why we should throw out Yoda's other feats simply because you believe he is struggling here. They still remain canon to the SW universe.

According to Chris Cherasi, who's an editor at LucasBooks:

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable."

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view."

Aside from the movies, and I'd perhaps be willing to include anything that we can attribute directly to George Lucas's vision, nothing that's officially "canon" is a neccessarily true reflection of the Star Wars Universe. We can perhaps apply logic on a case by case basis to determine the probable reliability of a particular source but you're not in a position to say that anything, aside from the movies and direct products of George Lucas's vision, are neccessarily true reflections of the mythologies.

It's not that I "believe" that he is struggling, it's that any realistic and reasonable interpretation would be that he is, given how heavily indicated it is by the time it takes him to move the crane and the movement of his body and facial expression. Given the above quotes, that have been stated in an official capacity by a LucasBooks editor, who's essentially tasked with establishing a cohesive continuity, anything that branches away from the movies is subject to innaccuracies. No EU material can automatically be considered to fit into continuity, so it's not a simple matter of a source fitting into continuity if it doesn't directly and exactly contradict the movies.

Sure, only a "few", but the degree by which they do so is so phenomenally grand that Yoda's display looks pretty laughable in comparison, and people would still consider Yoda one of the most powerful Force Users, among such company or even beyond them, despite such vast differences in the scale of their powers.

Freedon Nadd has also been established to be capable of creating wormholes. Whether the mentioned Ancient Sith received the aid of artifacts in their displays isn't a concern of mine as far as they pertain to these topics where combatants are assumed to have access to the equipment they regularly carry/use in battle. And I wouldn't really put Starkiller among such company considering he hasn't demonstrated anything even approaching that scale.

Originally posted by Iden Enserath
According to Chris Cherasi, who's an editor at LucasBooks:

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable."

I'd urge you to be very careful (and by that, I mean diplomatic) when applying this quote, Nebwuffles. You risk someone pointing out that outlier feats such as Darth Sidious's Force Storm, Darth Nihilus's drain, etc. don't fall within George Lucas's visions and are, thus, N-canon.

Ah, I'd forgotten about that quote. Good stuff.

Considering Yoda in Dark Rendezvous was able to pretty much seal against the vacuum of space in quick timing and later divert the direction of an orbital missile while in mid-combat, the idea that he struggles with a crane does seem like his lowest showing to date.

Not immediately N-Canon, but of unascertained canonicity, which would apply to anything that isn't a direct result of George Lucas's vision, if we wanted to group them all together in the same shared universe. And indeed, that would include even the Bane novels. That being said, while you can't refer to anything aside from the GL Sources as definitively fitting into continuity, that doesn't mean we can't argue the likelihood that they fit into that shared universe, and I'd submit that the best way to do that would be to examine how well a source fits in first and foremost with the GL Sources, as well as the majority of EU sources, with recent sources taking priority. You can also consider the nature of the sources, as was stated in one of the quotes listed above, such as videogames and their interactive approach. But the point is that nothing that's labelled "canon" necessarily fits into this shared continuity that Chris Cherasi references, and in the cases of some of Yoda's greater telekinetic feats, I don't think they can be reasonably said to do so.

Hence why I urge diplomacy. Cerasi's comments really leave little room for cherrypicking.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
I don't think its heavier.
Yeah the entire point of Durasteel is that it is stronger and lighter than Steel. The same idea is behind Permacrete, ferrocrete, flimsiplast, and other such prefix-laden words.

Materials science is cool.

Hmmm, in that case I'd estimate below 40 tonnes, assuming that the crane was made of the stuff, which seems to be the most likely scenario given apparently almost everything in the Star Wars Galaxy was.

Do we have exact figures at all?

Most likely not.

no way there can be exact figures. How tall was the thing? we can't tell without a detailed analysis of Dooku's retreating form mixed with various numbers to account for scale.

As long as Neb keeps claiming his own interpretation of Yoda's actions is the only possible canon view however, there is no use to continue this discussion.

I don't think there is much interpretation going on, though.

Yoda struggles with a piece of metal that would be used in a video game as a piece of debris. That's not really interpretation.

The word struggles certainly is.

There is no struggle onscreen... if you can come up with some other source that confirms a struggle, you might have an argument, but I already checked the novel for you, nothing about a struggle.

Yoda is visibly winded after levitating the pillar. Doesn't that qualify as "struggle?"

That is actually right after a duel with the Count, to be fair. Which , by all accounts, he did struggle with. That part is even in the novel.

See Count Dooku being a badass at 3:33.

anyplace where i can watch all the episodes in order?

Originally posted by truejedi
anyplace where i can watch all the episodes in order?

From that youtube account, I suggest.

i guess. 10 minutes at a time is fail though!

not gonna lie: This is better than I expected.

Originally posted by truejedi
not gonna lie: This is better than I expected.

I don't like the show, but season three has had some of the show's best moments.

Originally posted by Lucius
I don't like the show, but season three has had some of the show's best moments.

And some of its worst... What were these moments BTW?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwtycZZbXok

9:09. That pretty much makes Assajji even more pathetic.

and then Yoda reinforces the TK thing by grabbing an avalanche and whisking it out of the way. I think this show will be useful.

Originally posted by truejedi
anyplace where i can watch all the episodes in order? Blinkx. It's how I'm doing it.

grievous is coming across as a bit of a doofus.

It's in to a third season and follows the standard "good guys are WIN" theme. Unless the Jedi are super brilliant, the bad guys have to become kind of dumb.


*sigh*


The Clone Wars was better when it was something you casually mentioned in conversation but weren't born yet to see it in person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_iZTmWNXec&feature=related

so they just mentioned parsec as a distance. It was a time-unit to Han.

Han's just stupid.

It's actually explained in detail in a way that makes sense. The MF made the Kessel run in less distance because it was fast enough to take the "shortcut".

hope that's true. I watched 7 episodes. Grievous has jumped inside his fighter and flown away from splody things no less than 5 times. That is getting a LEETLE old. Is that going to continue?

Not in the first season.

Episode 15 of season 3 is so weird and random.

What? Overlords? That episode was quite awesome. Of course I beleive it was all some vision.

Originally posted by ares834
What? Overlords? That episode was quite awesome. Of course I beleive it was all some vision.

What was the point of Qui-Gon appearing, doesn't that kinda go against the surprised reaction of Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS?

Now that I think of it, there was so much random stuff in that episode. The light side girl freaking out about being touched comes to mind...

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
What was the point of Qui-Gon appearing, doesn't that kinda go against the surprised reaction of Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS?

Well it was a "vergence in the force" so it could be a special case. Not to mention I thought the whole expirence was a vision/dream anyway.



I thought that was to show that pure light side was bad as well. IE a pure lightsider would be quite arogant and aloof.