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Location: Palpatines office without palpatine

Positions: they all enter and have 10 seconds to find a spot.

Who wins?

I'm going to have to go with the duo on this one. After a long, hard fought battle, Maul will eventually be killed.

I'd have to argue against them. While Kit Fisto is hovering near AotC Obi-Wan's level of competency and Saesee Tiin's not the biggest chump around, the former was literally downed by Ventress quickly, and has no real high showings in saber combat in general.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'd have to argue against them. While Kit Fisto is hovering near AotC Obi-Wan's level of competency and Saesee Tiin's not the biggest chump around, the former was literally downed by Ventress quickly, and has no real high showings in saber combat in general.

Mm, yea.

How do you pronounce Saesee's name? I've never heard it spoken.

I always pronounced it as "Seh-see", or "say-see".

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'd have to argue against them. While Kit Fisto is hovering near AotC Obi-Wan's level of competency and Saesee Tiin's not the biggest chump around, the former was literally downed by Ventress quickly, and has no real high showings in saber combat in general.

Like humiliating Grievous is not a high showing. HA!!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How do you pronounce Saesee's name? I've never heard it spoken.

How do you pronounce Vaapad? I've never heard that spoken either.

Should make a thread that asks and answers questions of pronunciation.

yeah, fisto beat Grievous and random J-K droid. I think since Kenobi was able to cross blades with Maul in TPM, a jedi that is on par with Kenobi's AOTC self has a very good chance of beating him.

Saesee Tinn is called "one of the greatest bladesmen the Jedi Order had ever produced."

Originally posted by truejedi
yeah, fisto beat Grievous and random J-K droid. I think since Kenobi was able to cross blades with Maul in TPM, a jedi that is on par with Kenobi's AOTC self has a very good chance of beating him.

Saesee Tinn is called "one of the greatest bladesmen the Jedi Order had ever produced."

He was? Where's that from?

Normally he gets huge props as a pilot ('Rivaled only by Anakin'), but I haven't heard him called one of the best with a saber before. Though his telepathy is supposed to give him an edge against many foes.

Originally posted by Q99
He was? Where's that from?

Normally he gets huge props as a pilot ('Rivaled only by Anakin'), but I haven't heard him called one of the best with a saber before. Though his telepathy is supposed to give him an edge against many foes.

how the hell is saesee tiin a good swordsman, when him and 3 other jedi encountered darth sidious, he got pwned the worst.

Fisto stands a great chance of winning this alone.
IMHO adding Tinn is an overkill.

in ROTS novelization.

Can you find the quote? I'd be curious to see it, I'd expect it to be applied to Agen Kolar or Kit before Tiin.

Originally posted by 3 fishys
how the hell is saesee tiin a good swordsman, when him and 3 other jedi encountered darth sidious, he got pwned the worst.

Well, that WAS Darth Sidious. Keep things in perspective. If Darth Maul would have been blitzed like that, he too would have gone down within a couple seconds. And I agree that Fisto alone is close enough to Darth Maul in combat to possibly take him down alone - though this is not likely. But yes, adding in Tin definitely tips the scales in the duos favor.

I say the duo.I mean Kit and Seaesee are way better than TMPObi-Wan and Qui Gon.

Not so sure about that Qui-Gon was stated to be one of the Orders best Swordsmen

Kit Fisto's T-canon showings put him on par with Obi-Wan and the others. If the show succeeds in anything, it's putting the myth to rest that Obi-Wan and Anakin are necessarily the de facto Knights below Mace and Yoda in skill and ability. There are plenty of Jedi on par with them.

not in sabers with kenobi, considering how everyone else gets crushed by grievous.

Originally posted by truejedi
not in sabers with kenobi, considering how everyone else gets crushed by grievous.

Wait, wut?

Are we watching the same show or are you being facetious? The good general has been tremendously pussified in the Lucas-controlled cartoon. Fisto outdueled him on Vassek, Eeth Koth held his own against General Grievous and his MagnaGuards, Adi Gallia outdueled him in the attempt to rescue Koth, etc.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Kit Fisto's T-canon showings put him on par with Obi-Wan and the others. If the show succeeds in anything, it's putting the myth to rest that Obi-Wan and Anakin are necessarily the de facto Knights below Mace and Yoda in skill and ability. There are plenty of Jedi on par with them.

Let me check.
Kit Fisto, when confronted with Grievous and three or four Magna Guards, had to flee from the General. Obi-Wan, even during the Clone Wars series, managed to defeat Grievous in a similar situation. The casuality of Anakin and Kenobi dealing with the Magna Guards in RotS also points to them being more competent swordsmen than the likes of Fisto.

to clarify: Fisto is on par with AOTC Kenobi, but not ROTS Kenobi.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let me check.
Kit Fisto, when confronted with Grievous and three or four Magna Guards, had to flee from the General. Obi-Wan, even during the Clone Wars series, managed to defeat Grievous in a similar situation. The casuality of Anakin and Kenobi dealing with the Magna Guards in RotS also points to them being more competent swordsmen than the likes of Fisto.

Becaue he did flee doesn't mean he had to flee.

Ashoka had little trouble in dealing with a group of magna guards as well; does that indicate that she too is more competent than Fisto?

Originally posted by truejedi
to clarify: Fisto is on par with AOTC Kenobi, but not ROTS Kenobi.

By what evidence is he NOT on par with RotS Kenobi?

because he fled the general, as borborad said, and he did it not long after telling grievous that he was going to bring him to justice, and after grievous killed his padawan. fleeing because he wanted to in that situation would be really tough to explain later...

also, Mace does describe Kenobi as the best possible option to defeat Grievous.

Originally posted by truejedi
because he fled the general, as borborad said, and he did it not long after telling grievous that he was going to bring him to justice, and after grievous killed his padawan. fleeing because he wanted to in that situation would be really tough to explain later...

also, Mace does describe Kenobi as the best possible option to defeat Grievous.

First, Mace's opinion is exactly that - his opinion.

Second, Kenobi being the best option to defeat Grievous (if true) doesn't mean he is more competent than Fisto, or anyone else for that mater. That statement doesn't explicitly mean what you're trying to make it out to mean.

Third, back on the subject of Kenobi being the best option to defeat GG; yeah, I don't think Kenobi would be a better fit than, say, master YODA. Just sayin'.

then why did fisto run...? Actually when Mace says what he did, he specifically mentions himself and Yoda...

Originally posted by truejedi
then why did fisto run...? Actually when Mace says what he did, he specifically mentions himself and Yoda...

Thats my point TJ. Do you honestly believe that Kenobi would handle GG more easily than Yoda? If so, then this is a pointless discussion.

The situation isn't comparable to what Fisto endured. While Obi-Wan was certainly surrounded by a far more impressive force than was Fisto, they weren't actively aiding the general during their duel. In Fisto's case, he was dealing with MagnaGuards while trying to duel Grievous at the same time. Grievous lost a few hands in the encounter, but then Fisto opted to flee.

Eeth Koth was defeated by the general in Grievous Intrigue after being surrounded by MagnaGuards during their duel. Obi-Wan was defeated after destroying his entourage of commando droids, IIRC, in the same episode. Adi Gallia pursued the general and had the upper hand until Grievous managed to escape.

well, i've offered you a few evidences, which you reject... so i guess i could just go with:

ROTS kenobi is a high end jedi master. Perhaps THE master of Soresu. What does Fisto have that puts him at that same level?

tj
well, i've offered you a few evidences, which you reject...

Who are you talking to?

not you.

Originally posted by truejedi
not you.

Wow, this sounds like Z.'s prom night . Zing!

I have Kit Fisto kicking the shit out of General Grievous.

Remember, this isn't about whether Fisto is SUPERIOR to Kenobi, but rather that he is on PAR with Kenobi.

Originally posted by truejedi
to clarify: Fisto is on par with AOTC Kenobi, but not ROTS Kenobi.

burn on Z who isn't even here! so we are mocking him behind his back@! : ) i love it. let's do LS next!

tj
well, i've offered you a few evidences, which you reject... so i guess i could just go with:

ROTS kenobi is a high end jedi master. Perhaps THE master of Soresu. What does Fisto have that puts him at that same level?

I don't think he's just casually rejecting them. Windu's opinion of Kenobi extends him some credibility, absolutely, but JT brings up a point: Does Windu's opinion of Kenobi relative to Grievous mean that he's a better fighter than Yoda? I wouldn't think so.

Fisto doesn't have the span of feats to give him an exact placement relative to Kenobi, but I'd say he performed just as well against General Grievous as Obi-Wan did, suggesting that Kenobi isn't considerably better.

despite the fact that Fisto ran away and Kenobi gave chase? I would say that is an opposite in level of performance.

Originally posted by truejedi
despite the fact that Fisto ran away and Kenobi gave chase? I would say that is an opposite in level of performance.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
The situation isn't comparable to what Fisto endured. While Obi-Wan was certainly surrounded by a far more impressive force than was Fisto, they weren't actively aiding the general during their duel. In Fisto's case, he was dealing with MagnaGuards while trying to duel Grievous at the same time. Grievous lost a few hands in the encounter, but then Fisto opted to flee.

tj
despite the fact that Fisto ran away and Kenobi gave chase? I would say that is an opposite in level of performance.

You're neglecting two facts, though, tj. (1) Unlike the scenario with Fisto, General Grievous was not actively calling on aid during his duel with Kenobi. (2) Unlike the scenario with Fisto, Utapau was being invaded by the Republic Navy -- Grievous not only fled Kenobi, but he tried to flee the planet.

because Kenobi scared him so badly... : )

anyway, believe what you will i suppose. I am more of the opinion that Yoda/Mace/Anakin/Kenobi were on a firmly different tier.

Originally posted by truejedi
because Kenobi scared him so badly... : )

anyway, believe what you will i suppose. I am more of the opinion that Yoda/Mace/Anakin/Kenobi were on a firmly different tier.

Fixed.

^ My sentiments echo this. I certainly won't argue that Fisto and co. were exact equals with Obi-Wan or Anakin, but I have a hard time believing they're not on the same level. I mean, Mark A. Ragnos doesn't have anything approaching the feats to be considered the strongest Sith ever, but I think an examination of all the evidence would lend credence to the idea that he's top tier.

well, specifically i meant Yoda and Mace were on a tier with Sidious, and Anakin and Kenobi were on a tier with each other ... and then there was everyone else.

Originally posted by truejedi
well, specifically i meant Yoda and Mace were on a tier with Sidious, and Anakin and Kenobi were on a tier with each other ... and then there was everyone else.

Yea, that mirrors my perception. Those two tiers, followed by Kit Fisto/Shaak Ti/Plo Koon/etc. in a "super awesome masters" tier.

Originally posted by truejedi
because Kenobi scared him so badly... : )

anyway, believe what you will i suppose. I am more of the opinion that Yoda/Mace/Anakin/Kenobi were on a firmly different tier.

Kit Fisto vs Grievous

^ To be quite honest, Kit Fisto is doing very well against Grievous here. It's oddly contradictory to The Cestus Deception, which details clearly that he uses Shii-Cho and not dual blades, but his adaptation and coolness in the battle is considerable. Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu really puts him above most Jedi in the series coupled with his considerable experience though, and while Kit Fisto was arguably just ahead of AotC Obi-Wan, RotS Obi-Wan is a far greater animal. I can't see the likes of Kit Fisto holding his own against Anakin for a grueling ten minutes or so.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kit Fisto vs Grievous

^ To be quite honest, Kit Fisto is doing very well against Grievous here. It's oddly contradictory to The Cestus Deception, which details clearly that he uses Shii-Cho and not dual blades, but his adaptation and coolness in the battle is considerable. Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu really puts him above most Jedi in the series coupled with his considerable experience though, and while Kit Fisto was arguably just ahead of AotC Obi-Wan, RotS Obi-Wan is a far greater animal. I can't see the likes of Kit Fisto holding his own against Anakin for a grueling ten minutes or so.

The show is T-canon, btw. A new classification that's between G-canon and C-canon.

10 minutes is actually quite long. Did Obi-Wan fight Anakin for longer than 10 minutes?

Right, which means that T-canon is considered more accurate than the Cestus Deception, but less accurate than RotS. Which is a complete mind**** in terms of character consistency.

Star Wars always had the problem of character inconsistency.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Star Wars always had the problem of character inconsistency.

Agreed.

star wars has a problem with consistence, period. it's why we all cherrypick...

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Star Wars always had the problem of character inconsistency.

Anything else would be astonishing, provided they let 20 authors work on the franchise and just define some "historical facts" while giving them free rein with all the other stuff.

Originally posted by truejedi
star wars has a problem with consistence, period. it's why we all cherrypick...
Define "cherrypick."

It's how you pretend that Visas is a credible source in assessing Nihilus's power while discounting that Vader is a credible source in assessing Sidious's power.

Or act like your interpretation of what happened onscreen is the only possible interpretation while at the same time expecting us to assume a high level of ability for comic book characters that are never shown to move so much as a muscle.

Or how I will defend Luke's "Blackhole at the center of the galaxy couldn't move him" feat as literal while saying that Revan's "Heart of the Force" is poetic.

We all do it, but we never admit it. (heck you will probably deny the two example above while agreeing that I have incriminated myself... that's just how this place works.)

Apples and Oranges. Visas is talking solely about what she's seen about Nihilus. Vader is blanket stating 'hes the best ever', when he absolutely can't be the judge of that, not having seen most Sith.



We all discussed this line. In the end it was agreed that it was too deliberate and posed as too much of fact to be taken as hyperbole. Even Gideon agreed in the end if I remember.

Originally posted by truejedi
It's how you pretend that Visas is a credible source in assessing Nihilus's power while discounting that Vader is a credible source in assessing Sidious's power.

Or act like your interpretation of what happened onscreen is the only possible interpretation while at the same time expecting us to assume a high level of ability for comic book characters that are never shown to move so much as a muscle.

Or how I will defend Luke's "Blackhole at the center of the galaxy couldn't move him" feat as literal while saying that Revan's "Heart of the Force" is poetic.

We all do it, but we never admit it. (heck you will probably deny the two example above while agreeing that I have incriminated myself... that's just how this place works.)

If you say that you are biased, but then do nothing about it, that doesn't make you less wrong. Admitting a mistake and then continuing to do it is not an effective rhetorical or rational strategy.

Personally, I am convinced that Visas is an effective source, and I would suspect that Vader has a good understanding of Sidious's power, as well. What quote was it that you are talking about, exactly?

(I have been operating in good faith. The fact that your actions have been exclusively facetious over the past few months doesn't mean that everyone's were.)

No, it's not apples and oranges. Visas is speculating based on what she's seen from Nihilus and flat out admits to such. Vader, a Sith Lord and Jedi Knight whose Force-related career dwarfs that of Visas, makes an equally speculative comment. If hers is an informed opinion, why wouldn't his be?



The only reason that I do not support the line about Luke being the black hole is because I am unaware of any corroboration that would indicate Luke is capable of such unimaginable power. I interpret the sentence to simply mean that Raynar Thul was unable to muster sufficient power to remove him -- which is still an impressive feat. Likewise, I interpret the line from Dooku about Palpatine being a "black hole of the Force" to simply mean that he was extremely powerful in the dark side.



That Palpatine was the most powerful Sith who ever existed.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
No, it's not apples and oranges. Visas is speculating based on what she's seen from Nihilus and flat out admits to such. Vader, a Sith Lord and Jedi Knight whose Force-related career dwarfs that of Visas, makes an equally speculative comment. If hers is an informed opinion, why wouldn't his be?

Which is why I'm not saying taht Visas should be taken as flat out fact, no questions asked, but rather that we need to logically look at what she's saying to collaborate or tear down her words. Vader on teh other hand has absolutely no fvcking way that he could possibly know what the fvck he's talking about. Sidious is the mostest powerful huh? He's only ever met 2-3 other sith ever! He simply can't make that judgement. He's in no position to. He doesn't even begin to have a point of reference. His opinion isn't informed. At all. His thoughts on the matter are complete bullshit end of story.




So...... do you think the quote is literal or not?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
No, it's not apples and oranges. Visas is speculating based on what she's seen from Nihilus and flat out admits to such. Vader, a Sith Lord and Jedi Knight whose Force-related career dwarfs that of Visas, makes an equally speculative comment. If hers is an informed opinion, why wouldn't his be?


Going out on a limb, I think the crucial difference is that Visas's remarks are limited only to things about which she is intimately acquainted. She knows what N. is capable of, and she alerts the player to his abilities which she has seen firsthand.

Vader is not a noted scholar, let alone scholar. He does not have personal knowledge of the Ancient Sith or really any other Sith at all, except for Dooku. His perspective on Sidious's abilities is admissible, but comparative statements that involve people he's never met are less authoritative.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why I'm not saying taht Visas should be taken as flat out fact, no questions asked, but rather that we need to logically look at what she's saying to collaborate or tear down her words. Vader on teh other hand has absolutely no fvcking way that he could possibly know what the fvck he's talking about. Sidious is the mostest powerful huh? He's only ever met 2-3 other sith ever! He simply can't make that judgement. He's in no position to. His thought on the matter are complete bullshit end of story.

And what exactly corroborates Visas's speculation on the matter? That because Nihilus drained Katarr he can end all life everywhere with his mere presence? Why is hers an informed opinion but Vader's not? Vader's, whose word on Force related matters seems lightyears more convincing than hers?



My conclusion remains the same, but the reason I feel that way is simply because I haven't seen Luke demonstrate that level of power anywhere else.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
And what exactly corroborates Visas's speculation on the matter? That because Nihilus drained Katarr he can end all life everywhere with his mere presence? Why is hers an informed opinion but Vader's not? Vader's, whose word on Force related matters seems lightyears more convincing than hers?



My conclusion remains the same, but the reason I feel that way is simply because I haven't seen Luke demonstrate that level of power anywhere else.


Because his opinion isn't informed! He doesn't possess teh knowledge to make that call. He has absolutely no way to judge the strength of Sith before his own life, aka 99.99% of the entire Sith Line and certainly not in reference to Sidious' own power. Taking him at face value would be like me accepting that my friend is the best cricketer ever when I have no idea about pretty much any other cricketer ever. That would be utterly moronic.


Utterly. Moronic!


And said conclusion is?

Originally posted by truejedi
I think you slightly misunderstood my intention there. My apology. My interpretation of the text has been exactly as I have argued it. However, I DO recognize that my interpretation does have a slight double standard. The only way to do that would be to drop both examples, or embrace both examples. I don't do that, because my interpretation of the sources (and other sources) leads me to believe that (for instance) Visas is not credible while Vader is. I realize that it is an opinion, as yours is, and a bit of a double standard, but it is my interpretation, and one I will fight to defend.

I remember you saying something along the lines of "It's not being right that matters, it is saying it the most times in the most different ways" (very rough paraphrase, but you said it when we all went and trolled on RJ for awhile, if you remember)
Oh, see I don't consider differences of opinion to be the result of dishonesty or anything like that; sometimes people just seize on different details as "the most important." As long as you can explain what you think and why you think that, you've aced everything that KMC can accomplish.

Do you guys even realize how much you're going in circles here.

Like a shark, stalking its prey through the undergrowth.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Do you guys even realize how much you're going in circles here.
yes.

Whoever re-posts their position the most times wins.

And GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Saesee Tiin is an unknown. Maul wins!

TEAM 1 WINS!

wait a minute, why is Vader a farm-boy?

Because he grew up as a slave.

um... as a mechanic slave. how do you get "farmboy" out of that?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he grew up as a slave.

All slaves are farm boys. Stop trying to break convention.

Originally posted by truejedi
um... as a mechanic slave. how do you get "farmboy" out of that?

Because hes a slave.

what?

I don't see how I can make that any clearer.

You racist bastard.

I don't like them Tatooinees. Damn lazy bastards!



Originally posted by Nephthys
Because his opinion isn't informed! He doesn't possess teh knowledge to make that call. He has absolutely no way to judge the strength of Sith before his own life, aka 99.99% of the entire Sith Line and certainly not in reference to Sidious' own power. Taking him at face value would be like me accepting that my friend is the best cricketer ever when I have no idea about pretty much any other cricketer ever. That would be utterly moronic.


Utterly. Moronic!


And said conclusion is?



Ahem.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kit Fisto vs Grievous

^ To be quite honest, Kit Fisto is doing very well against Grievous here. It's oddly contradictory to The Cestus Deception, which details clearly that he uses Shii-Cho and not dual blades, but his adaptation and coolness in the battle is considerable. Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu really puts him above most Jedi in the series coupled with his considerable experience though, and while Kit Fisto was arguably just ahead of AotC Obi-Wan, RotS Obi-Wan is a far greater animal. I can't see the likes of Kit Fisto holding his own against Anakin for a grueling ten minutes or so.

I can see Fisto putting Anakin on his ass. While there's no way Fisto could hold off an enraged Anakin for the length of time Kenobi did (as that's is not his combat philosophy/fighting style), he still has a chance to overtake Anakin from an offensive standpoint. After all, he laid a pretty hefty smackdown on General Grievous in less time than it took Kenobi to do likewise. Styles make fights. With that being said, I stand by my opinion that Fisto and a handfull of other Jedi are on Kenobi and Anakin's level.

The should won, but Maul still has a chance... mby about 30-40%

Remember, Fisto and Tinn are some of the greatest duellist in the galaxy, as chosen by Windu. Though unable to compete against Sidious, this was due to his use of Force Speed which tricked the Jedi. Tinn and Fisto can defeat Grievous as Fisto showed his epicness when fighting the Magnaguards and Grievous at the same time. Grievous defeated

What's a "Grievous"?

That's what she said.

Originally posted by dinelka
this was due to his use of Force Speed which tricked the Jedi.

Awsome trick

You guuuuuuys. Stop picking on the new kid, we need new stuff.

Originally posted by dinelka
Remember, Fisto and Tinn are some of the greatest duellist in the galaxy, as chosen by Windu.

Remember, he was picked entirely out of ones on-planet at the time, and who didn't have other important duties/were Anakin (Shaak Ti or Anakin)

Though Fisto's definitely one of the best, Tiin doesn't have as much dueling rep under his belt. Still solid, being a council member, of course, and that alone probably puts him in the top 20, but he's not one of the top-top.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let me check.
Kit Fisto, when confronted with Grievous and three or four Magna Guards, had to flee from the General. Obi-Wan, even during the Clone Wars series, managed to defeat Grievous in a similar situation. The casuality of Anakin and Kenobi dealing with the Magna Guards in RotS also points to them being more competent swordsmen than the likes of Fisto.

MagnaGuards and MagnaGuards working with a competent swordsmen are 2 completely different things as seen when Anakin gets pwned by 3 working with Dooku.

maul

The team should take it. Maul taking on 2 masters will not be easy on him.