Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I'm a little surprised at how Mace is given such a solid advantage over Dooku by most patrons of this sub-forum and I'd like to make a place to discuss both styles against one another.

Some points I'd like to see addressed:

1. Makashi is the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" according to Cin Drallig, a noted master of many forms.
It's explicitly listed as the dominant saber form when Jedi and Sith fought, only becoming obsolete when the Sith were no longer a common threat mainly because it excelled at defeating other duelists.

2. Nowhere is Vaapad noted explicitly for being good at fighting other lightsaber duelists. Its main strength is channeling inner darkness and allowing the Force to make you appear erratic and fast. The argument that Vaapad > Makashi is never resolved by those who very quickly say Mace > Dooku.

Thoughts? Insights? Rants? Quite frankly, I'd love to see some actual reasoning behind some of these arguments.

The reason Mace gets the props over Dooku is because Mace created Vapaad, he knows every move in it.

That, and against darksiders Vapaad is the most epic form imaginable.


Its been a while since I read my copy of Shatterpoint, im lending it to a friend anyways so itll be a bit til I can read it again

Fairly certain we assume Mace is better because he beat Sidious whom Dooku was terrified of.

If only Rampant Ox were here.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
If only Rampant Ox were here.

What would he say?

Maybe because most people anymore are less interested in the style used than the combatant using it.

so in other words.... you think dooku is better? why not just say that instead of making a "tell me why this is so" thread and then arguing with every argument thrown your way?

Originally posted by truejedi
so in other words.... you think dooku is better? why not just say that instead of making a "tell me why this is so" thread and then arguing with every argument thrown your way?

Are you trolling, or are you going to actually attempt a rebuttal?

i asked you a question.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Are you trolling, or are you going to actually attempt a rebuttal?
tj has pointed out that this is a not a vs. thread, but an explanation of why people make an argument. Technically, you haven't even asked anyone to defend the argument itself, yet. So trolling is a pretty major charge for such a nebulously defined topic.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm a little surprised at how Mace is given such a solid advantage over Dooku by most patrons of this sub-forum and I'd like to make a place to discuss both styles against one another.

Some points I'd like to see addressed:

1. Makashi is the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" according to Cin Drallig, a noted master of many forms.
It's explicitly listed as the dominant saber form when Jedi and Sith fought, only becoming obsolete when the Sith were no longer a common threat mainly because it excelled at defeating other duelists.

2. Nowhere is Vaapad noted explicitly for being good at fighting other lightsaber duelists. Its main strength is channeling inner darkness and allowing the Force to make you appear erratic and fast. The argument that Vaapad > Makashi is never resolved by those who very quickly say Mace > Dooku.

Thoughts? Insights? Rants? Quite frankly, I'd love to see some actual reasoning behind some of these arguments.

^ You're welcome to re-read the original post and go from there. If you feel this is in the wrong section, feel free to notify a moderator.

This thread has a dual purpose; to rehash the Mace > Dooku thing (because it seems to be accepted almost without conscious thought around here; anytime something is unanimously agreed upon in a subjective versus argument it should perhaps be explained if not properly evaluated) and to also consider their respective fighting styles. A lot of pro-Mace arguments cite Vaapad. But what aspects? The dark side channeling? Okay, that may have some merit. Surprisingly few mentioned the Shatterpoint. Mace's wartime experience. Almost no evidence of his EU fights. I'm simply looking for some well-formulated arguments in general. I figured bringing up the fighting styles and how they differ would start that trend.

Sorry for making any of you rethink your opinions, folks.

truejedi



Here's a new concept: when you seem certain of something, it's a good idea of others to attempt to challenge you regardless of their own personal feelings, to test your conviction and your knowledge. Socrates did this, you may have heard of him before. Sure, I think Dooku has an edge; I won't deny it. But I do agree that the fight is very very close as well. In SW, an edge doesn't equate victory, as Anakin versus Obi-Wan proved very well. Dooku may have an edge in my opinion, but Mace could win half or more than half of the time. The purpose of the exercise is to bring some stuff to the table, not just blindly accept what is given in the community.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

truejedi



Here's a new concept: when you seem certain of something, it's a good idea of others to attempt to challenge you regardless of their own personal feelings, to test your conviction and your knowledge. Socrates did this, you may have heard of him before. Sure, I think Dooku has an edge; I won't deny it. But I do agree that the fight is very very close as well. In SW, an edge doesn't equate victory, as Anakin versus Obi-Wan proved very well. Dooku may have an edge in my opinion, but Mace could win half or more than half of the time. The purpose of the exercise is to bring some stuff to the table, not just blindly accept what is given in the community.

Well since we're being all academic here,



Dark Rendezvous also indicates that the margin between the good Count and his Master, the great and terrifying Darth Sidious, is quite substantial. The same Dooku who scarcely bats an eyelash at the notion of confronting Yoda in a duel to the death must damn near change his finely pressed trousers after a mere holo-conference with the magnificent and rather distinguished Darth Sidious.

As truejedi correctly points out, Mace managed to defeat a man who is clearly more powerful and more dangerous than the good Count, utilizing tools that will be available to him in a match against the good Count (the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of the Vaapad fighting form). Why wouldn't he win?

Originally posted by truejedi
Fairly certain we assume Mace is better because he beat Sidious whom Dooku was terrified of.

Not that Im disputing Sidious being considerably more powerful than Dooku but Im not convinced that Dooku being scared of Sidious proves anything except that Sidious has a psychological hold over Dooku.

Think of this.. Dooku is not terrified to challenge Yoda (actually considers himself Yoda's equal according to Dark Rendezvous).. Yoda who probably beat Sidious in a Saber fight, and at least stalemated him in a Force fight.

I also dnt think Apprentice is automatically weaker than Master. Just look at Vader and Starkiller..

Also despite the fact that Mace beat Sidious, I doubt anyone would argue that Mace is more powerful than Sidious, or even equally as powerful.

I assume Mace would beat Dooku for the same reason(s) he beat Palpatine.

Vaapad would allow Mace to channel Dooku's dark energies into his own weapon of the light. Shatterpoint would allow him to exploit any potential weaknesses he saw. Additionally, Makashi doesn't possess the kinetic power to meet some of the more physically intensive forms (Djem-So, Juyo, Vaapad, etc.) head to head. That could also play a key role here.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Well since we're being all academic here,


With RagingBoner having visited the clown academy graduating in "Sidious wankery" with "summa cum fanboy".



Oh. This story again.
So Sidious superiority over Dooku in terms of power is "proven" by Dooku's fear when thinking about his master. Of course, fear is not even close to being a rational evaluation of a situation, but this can be ignored. We can also ignore the fact that we don't know, how Sidious did manage to inspire fear in Dooku. If it was sheer power, then why didn't Dooku fear Yoda, who has demonstrated his superiority over him before. Answer: Fear is not a rational feeling, but based on pure feral instinct.

This makes the attempt to prove something based on the "fear" of a character irrational per definition. Especially when not even being aware of the cause for that fear. The mere assumption that it was power, when Sidious didn't demonstrate any kind of ability in direct combat that could be utilized to conclude that he is head and shoulders above his apprentice.



It's nice how Gideon still assumes that his interpretations of power-levels somehow equal fact. Pathetic. Since there is no direct proof for Sidious superiority over Dooku, but just interpretations of ideas pointing in that direction, I find this statement rather absurd. When it comes to the question who is the more dangerous duellist, I'd chose Dooku - with his lightsaber ability and his ability to shit out force attacks while blocking saber strikes left and right - over his master. He's far less predictable, has the more efficient duelling ability and can throw some surprise attacks utilizing his force mastery.

better proofread that quick:



I mean, it's obvious what you meant but nit pickers love to nit. pick.

Originally posted by Galan007
Additionally, Makashi doesn't possess the kinetic power to meet some of the more physically intensive forms (Djem-So, Juyo, Vaapad, etc.) head to head. That could also play a key role here.

I don't know. After all, Dooku's Makashi was simply stated to not be able to go head to head with Anakin's Djem-So. Furthemore, no form is really well suited to meet Djem-So head to head as it is intended overpower the other forms through its shear use of power.

Originally posted by Galan007
Additionally, Makashi doesn't possess the kinetic power to meet some of the more physically intensive forms (Djem-So, Juyo, Vaapad, etc.) head to head. That could also play a key role here.

http://anakin_sky.homestead.com/files/news_ep3_anakin_obi_wan_dooku_duel.jpg

And here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there.

Originally posted by Borbarad
http://anakin_sky.homestead.com/files/news_ep3_anakin_obi_wan_dooku_duel.jpg

And here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there.

Anakin was not utilizing Djem-so at this point per the RotS novel.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Anakin was not utilizing Djem-so at this point per the RotS novel.

He was utilizing his freakin' droid arm, capable of holding the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Sidious. Is that enough "kinetic power"? Not even mentioning that most of the novels description of the fight is outright contradicted by the movie version. And the particular "faking forms" stuff doesn't make sense at all. Dooku has fought them countless times before. He knows what lightsaber forms they are using.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku has fought them countless times before. F*cking Clone Wars.

Originally posted by Borbarad
most of the novels description of the fight is outright contradicted by the movie version.

Meh!! Good point.

Originally posted by Borbarad
http://anakin_sky.homestead.com/files/news_ep3_anakin_obi_wan_dooku_duel.jpg

And here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there. You misunderstand. I am not saying that Makashi just breaks down when it meets a more physically intensive fighting form. I'm just saying that in an extended battle vs. Vaapad, Makashi's lack of kinetic power *could* hinder it. It isn't an absolute, just a possibility.

Originally posted by Galan007
You misunderstand. I am not saying that Makashi just breaks down when it meets a more physically intensive fighting form. I'm just saying that in an extended battle vs. Vaapad, Makashi's lack of kinetic power *could* hinder it. It isn't an absolute, just a possibility. Hey, we're arguing Star Wars here! There's no such thing as a "possibility". Only cold hard absolute fact. Makashi>>>Djem So AND Soresu at the same time. Fact. Proven by that screen shot.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Hey, we're arguing Star Wars here! There's no such thing as a "possibility". Only cold hard absolute fact. Makashi>>>Djem So AND Soresu at the same time. Fact. Proven by that screen shot.
That's the most ridiculous thing you could find in this thread?

No.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wi. Overwerighted big fat piggy wtf

Originally posted by Borbarad
http://anakin_sky.homestead.com/files/news_ep3_anakin_obi_wan_dooku_duel.jpg

And here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there.

This is clearly photoshopped evidence, as everyone knows that Makashi mastery means you're completely overwhelmed by Anakin's "Swing battah battah" style, even though you taught all of the lightsaber forms to Grievous. Oh, and Ventress that little ball of piss and vinegar, routinely uses Force Rage but fails to knock Dooku aside and instead gets tooled.

Let's put two pieces of evidence together:

1. RotS script, which shows Dooku is "faking it" when he's fighting Anakin alone so he can convert him per Sidious' plan.

2. Yoda unbalances and saber traps people three times his size, including Darth Sidious. Dooku isn't overcome by Yoda in saber combat, and fares noticably better on neutral ground than Sidious does. Obviously Yoda has greater Force power at this point than even "in teh zonez" Anakin, and he's hitting with pure kinetic energy using Ataru which is -surprise!- an aggressive style based on kinetic energy and being all up in someone's shit.

Conclusion? The whole EU idea of Makashi not being able to withstand kinetic energy is bullshit ROTS novel material which conflicts with higher sources of canon, namely the movies. I like Stover, but it's like he hit his head and forgot how to do the SW universe justice when he wrote it.

Alternatively, a style being "weak to the kinetic power of Djem So" doesn't mean that the user lacks strength to block powerful attacks, but rather more of it's attacks and stances are such that they can be thrown further off-line by a strong attack than other styles.

I'm just curious - how can a lightsaber style that's deliberately made to combat other lightsaber users fail to account for .... swinging really hard?

I realize what you're trying to say, but really... "Oh ****, is he swinging hard? My entire fighting philosophy didn't take that into account!"

Most Pathetic Style goes to....

SM
1. RotS script, which shows Dooku is "faking it" when he's fighting Anakin alone so he can convert him per Sidious' plan.

Where?



I direct you to the 4:14 minute mark of this video, in which Yoda breaks the saber lock with Dooku.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Where?

In the script. You know, the part where Dooku is fighting Anakin? We went over this years ago.





... And Dooku doesn't even move the position of his feet, instead quickly stabbing down and forcing Yoda to move. So Yoda gains no advantage against Dooku with a saber lock, but Sidious is overbalanced? What does that tell us?

And watch the fight again - Dooku controls the pacing superbly. And before the scene where he gets into a saber lock with Yoda, he nearly cuts the old Jedi's ear. Counter this with Sidious being literally behind the eight ball the entire duel, and then being overbalanced like a tool.

SM
In the script. You know, the part where Dooku is fighting Anakin? We went over this years ago.

Yeah, I'm looking at the script right now and I'm not seeing it. I've tried Ctrl + F and searched for "fake" and "restrain" but haven't found any references regarding the good Count.

Besides, it definitely conflicts with what Mr. Lucas had to say:






Would you mind pointing out where exactly Sidious is overbalanced?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In the script. You know, the part where Dooku is fighting Anakin? We went over this years ago.

It's not in the script homie. It's the novelization you're talking about.

JT
It's not in the script homie. It's the novelization you're talking about.

Do you have the passage in question or can you direct me to it?

Actually, I found it. (I forgot I have an e-copy of ROTS.) I don't see any contradiction here, actually. Obviously Dooku was under the impression he was going to survive the duel and be captured by Anakin, but that does not contradict what is said elsewhere, most importantly by George himself, that the good Count was pulling his punches. Dooku was aware that this was a test: If the good Count defeated Anakin, then Skywalker wouldn't be ready.

I don't have it on hand, but I do recall reading it in the RotS novel.

^^ I found it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
http://anakin_sky.homestead.com/files/news_ep3_anakin_obi_wan_dooku_duel.jpg

And here we see Dooku not being able to meet the vast kinetic power of Djem So, demonstrated by the fact that he's not able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, utilizing just one hand. He's totally overwhelmed there. Apparently, somebody has just forgotten to lecture him on the supposed disadvantage of his style, because he should have broken his wrist right there. Honestly, as far as pictures go you used like, the absolute worst one for your example, lol. Obi-Wan was obviously outmaneuvered into overextending himself, meaning he was not laying on the kinetic force, and only the near tip of Anakin's blade was resting against Dookus blade. In fact, considering the positioning of their blades, you've basically got both Anakin and Obi-Wan in positions where they have almost no leverage, against Dooku who, through positioning, has all the leverage (their blades are meeting his right next to his hilt, meaning he has a ton of leverage).

Furthermore, it's also highly possible that much of that one-handed push-back can be attributed to Dooku's force mastery enhancing him, ala Yoda being able to contend with the taller, stronger Palpatine in a saber lock. Nothing in that image really suggests that Dooku is holding his own, physical strength wise, through the merit of his soresu.

The German will eviscerate you.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
^^ I found it.

Can you post it?

hmmm, you are actually toeing around on a "Dooku was beat Yoda in AOTC?" sort of argument fringe?

JT
Can you post it?

tj
hmmm, you are actually toeing around on a "Dooku was beat Yoda in AOTC?" sort of argument fringe?

?

not you, that seemed to be what SM was arguing. I'm just thinking, surely that's not what he was arguing? Surely i misunderstood that?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Yeah, I'm looking at the script right now and I'm not seeing it. I've tried Ctrl + F and searched for "fake" and "restrain" but haven't found any references regarding the good Count.

Besides, it definitely conflicts with what Mr. Lucas had to say:






Would you mind pointing out where exactly Sidious is overbalanced? Seems like kind of a stupid test, don't you think? How is it indicative of Anakin's skill if Dooku is holding back?

Originally posted by truejedi
not you, that seemed to be what SM was arguing. I'm just thinking, surely that's not what he was arguing? Surely i misunderstood that?

-sigh- Nvm.

edited on account of RB turning over a new leaf

Blax
Seems like kind of a stupid test, don't you think? How is it indicative of Anakin's skill if Dooku is holding back?

Because Dooku wasn't supposed to hold back. At the end of Labyrinth of Evil, Sidious instructs Dooku to make the contest appear real or some-such. Likewise, in the Rise of Darth Vader, Sidious tells Vader that if Dooku had been stronger in the dark side, he would be sitting at Palpatine's right hand, not Vader.

Thus the contest. Palpatine is ordering Dooku to fight Anakin and, if Anakin loses, they'll let him go and try again in the future. If Anakin wins, Sidious will intervene and Dooku will be spared and then they'll all rule the galaxy and live happily ever after.

The reality is that Palpatine has no intentions of having two apprentices.

So was Dooku "pulling his punches" or no?

Blax
So was Dooku "pulling his punches" or no?

Based on what Lucas says, no. If Dooku was under orders to go easy on Anakin, Anakin's victory wouldn't be in doubt, since the Count would just allow himself to lose. But, according to Lucas, Palpatine has made room for the possibility that Dooku will win, in which case Anakin is not yet worthy to join the ranks of the Sith.

I remember the novel stating that the first half of the duel, the half with Kenobi involved, had Dooku holding back--believing he was to be captured. After Anakin almost killed him following Kenobi's removal, Dooku started fighting back properly, like he meant it.

Lucien
I remember the novel stating that the first half of the duel, the half with Kenobi involved, had Dooku holding back--believing he was to be captured. After Anakin almost killed him following Kenobi's removal, Dooku started fighting back properly, like he meant it.

^ That would work.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm just curious - how can a lightsaber style that's deliberately made to combat other lightsaber users fail to account for .... swinging really hard?

I realize what you're trying to say, but really... "Oh ****, is he swinging hard? My entire fighting philosophy didn't take that into account!"

Most Pathetic Style goes to....


Swinging hard and being effective at the same time isn't all that easy A lot of the time it'd leave a foe over committed.

And it's not that it doesn't account for it at all- most of the time the way it handles it would be to out-finesse the opponent, and many opponents probably aren't strong enough or fast enough to really make it an advantage. It's just when the opponent is good enough to force that kind of clashes that Makashi can lose out.

Far from the most pathetic style, I believe Anakin's is the *only* style noted to be able to give it trouble, and even then it's not exactly what I'd call a sizable disadvantage.

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm, you are actually toeing around on a "Dooku was beat Yoda in AOTC?" sort of argument fringe?

No.

Especially considering that "Dooku was beat Yoda in AOTC" sounds like Engrish.

Originally posted by Q99
Swinging hard and being effective at the same time isn't all that easy A lot of the time it'd leave a foe over committed.

And it's not that it doesn't account for it at all- most of the time the way it handles it would be to out-finesse the opponent, and many opponents probably aren't strong enough or fast enough to really make it an advantage. It's just when the opponent is good enough to force that kind of clashes that Makashi can lose out.

Far from the most pathetic style, I believe Anakin's is the *only* style noted to be able to give it trouble, and even then it's not exactly what I'd call a sizable disadvantage.

But if you watch the fight itself, Anakin lands exactly one blow that noticeably bats away Dooku's defense, and then physically grabs his arms while doing a rather subtle twist maneuver. Out-batting Dooku never comes into it.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Based on what Lucas says, no. If Dooku was under orders to go easy on Anakin, Anakin's victory wouldn't be in doubt, since the Count would just allow himself to lose. But, according to Lucas, Palpatine has made room for the possibility that Dooku will win, in which case Anakin is not yet worthy to join the ranks of the Sith.

Dooku was pulling back a bit in that he wasn't trying to kill Anakin.

How do you fight someone with a laser sword and not try to kill them?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
How do you fight someone with a laser sword and not try to kill them?

Mace wasn't trying to kill Sora Bulq it appears. As soon as he needed to, he subdued him by knocking him out. There's one example right off the top of me head.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
How do you fight someone with a laser sword and not try to kill them?

Aim for the hands.

Kinda like what Dooku actually did do against Anakin.

There are a lot of examples of disarming.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The whole EU idea of Makashi not being able to withstand kinetic energy is bullshit It's not that Makashi cannot withstand any kinetic force used against it, it's that in some (rare) cases, Makashi doesn't possess the raw kinetic/brute force to match up to some of the more physically intensive forms head to head - which makes sense. Makashi utilizes precision and efficiency over brute power. It uses jabs, parries, and light cuts as opposed to slashes, blocks, and chops.

However, it's not like any random ock can waltz over and start hurling a lightsaber around like Stevie Wonder at batting practice, and hope to beat Dooku. It has to be a high-level master of a very kinetically powerful form, before Dooku will even begin to notice that Makashi isn't strong enough to compete with it head-on. For instance, it took battling RotS Anakin (one of the finest practitioners of Djem-So Dooku had ever seen) for him to take note of the kinetic force 'weakness' inherent in his form.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's not that Makashi cannot withstand any kinetic force used against it, it's that in some (rare) cases, Makashi doesn't possess the raw kinetic/brute force to match up to some of the more physically intensive forms head to head - which makes sense. Makashi utilizes precision and efficiency over brute power. It uses jabs, parries, and light cuts as opposed to slashes, blocks, and chops.


Fencing 101: The European style fencing, which forms the basis for Dooku's style doesn't make use of straigth forward parries but (the real fencing weapons weren't made for that kind of manouver), rather than that, works by redirecting kinetic energy of an attack by subtely altering its direction. That being said, assuming that it could be overpowered by any amount of brute force, is absolute nonsense.



Since you agreed in the other thread (after contesting my hint into that direction for 2 pages), that the movies take precedence, I wonder why you once again try to argue the novel version of the events once more, that are clearly contradicted by the movie version of the fight.

Anakin does never overwhelm Dooku's defense with brute force, neither does the Count try to "parry" Anakins swings by simple bringing his lightsaber up against the Chosen One hacking away at him. He "parries" in the fashion I described above, altering the direction of Anakin's attacks.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Anakin does never overwhelm Dooku's defense with brute force, neither does the Count try to "parry" Anakins swings by simple bringing his lightsaber up against the Chosen One hacking away at him. He "parries" in the fashion I described above, altering the direction of Anakin's attacks. Somewhat arguable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_dxW4NpDU
(around 1:52)

Either way, I didn't say that Makashi not generating enough kinetic force to meet Anakin's Djem-So head to head is why Dooku lost. I just referenced Dooku having noted the difference in kinetic force between the two forms. Please do stop trying to pick arguments.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, I didn't say that Makashi not generating enough kinetic force to meet Anakin's Djem-So head to head is why Dooku lost. I just referenced Dooku having noted the difference in kinetic force between the two forms. Please do stop trying to pick arguments.

You do realize that Dooku noting this is a direct result of Anakin's supposed battering of his defense. Since this doesn't happen, it would be reasonable to conclude that Dooku's thoughts in that direction are likewise non-existant.

I could also point to the fact that last time I checked, Matthew Stover was an author rather than being a martial art expert specialized in swordfights, who was attempting to apply common sense in order to explain the result of the duel between Anakin and Dooku. It seems to be reasonable to assume that the younger, stronger dude overpowers the older, weaker dude with superior strength. And that would even work if both where utilizing their lightsabers like broadswords.

In fact none of them does. We don't see Anakin whacking away at Dooku with power strikes, and neither do we see Dooku in trouble of defending himself against superior kinetic force. So why would his thoughts on that issue be present / canon?

Originally posted by Galan007
Somewhat arguable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_dxW4NpDU
(around 1:52)

Anyway, the statement(s) made pertaining to Dooku not being able to match Anakin's physical strength, and Makashi not generating the kinetic force to meet his Djem-So head-on, were made before Dooku decided it was 'time to kill' - before he began channeling massive amounts of the force offensively. Once Dooku began doing so, he gained the edge. However, he used most of his power far too quickly against Anakin, thus he lost the edge soon thereafter and began to falter.

At any rate, I never accredited Dooku's loss to Makashi's lack of kinetic force. In fact, I never even implied that. I merely stated that it was "possible" Makashi's lack of kinetic power could play a role in an extended battle with Mace/Vaapad. I gave no absolutes. So please, stop arguing just to argue.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You do non-existant.

You mean nonexistent, right? Just curious. I mean you with your far superior intelligence would obviously have caught that mistake eventually, right?


Serious question here; What kind of work do you do for a living Borbarad?

He's German, I wouldn't try to jump on him for a spelling mistake.

You might look a wee bit silly.

Wouldn't be the first time - will not be the last - and couldn't care less whether I do or do not look silly.

Teeheeheehee!

The perfect troll.

I am blinded by brilliance.

Seriously, I think I might cry a little.

N.
He's German, I wouldn't try to jump on him for a spelling mistake.

You might look a wee bit silly.

While I'm not condoning anyone assuming the role of Grammar Nazi, coupled with the fact that Nai's posts are invisible to me, I believe JT was simply making a point that Nai's intellect, while formidable, is absolutely fallible. (Based on previous encounters with Nai, I could understand how one would conclude that the German truly believes and presents himself to be a genius beyond reproach.)

In context, JT's reaction is petty, but understandable.


(I also appreciate the delicious irony of the situation: Nai being German, and JT revealing his Grammar Nazi allegiance. teehehe)

no, a genius beyond reproach wouldn't spend his time here. at least dear god i hope not.

Originally posted by truejedi
no, a genius beyond reproach wouldn't spend his time here. at least dear god i hope not. Borb's presence here obviously proves your little theory... Wrong.


ermmnone

Originally posted by truejedi
no, a genius beyond reproach wouldn't spend his time here. at least dear god i hope not. Welcome to the digital age. Even Stephen Hawking has a WoW account.

Originally posted by Galan007
Borb's presence here obviously proves your little theory... Wrong.


ermmnone

Oh.

I'm rather certainly a "genious beyond reproach", merely because I think I'm more educated than most people around here. An idea, that stems from the fact that I'm 5 to 10 years older than most people here. I'm also so damn arrogant to assume, that I'm better in my field of study (the interpretation of fictional sources) than people who did not study the subject. Gosh. What an assine assumption. Everybody knows people who have spent literally thousands of hours with a certain subject don't have a greater insight to it than your Average Joe. Wonder why you need to study medicine in order to be allowed to remove an appendix. I can find the thing with a diagram taken from Wikipedia and it can't be that hard to make some cuts, correct?

Yup. That's so arrogant. But somehow, being a high-school student that assumes his education and abilities are on par or above that of University graduades doesn't make you arrogant. It makes you "Gideon" - the only six letter synonym for hypocrisy.

I've actually taken 3 college fictional analysis classes, and honestly, i walked out of all three feeling like the professor was twisting everything they read to fit their pre-conceived notions of what the text SHOULD be like.

Originally posted by truejedi
I've actually taken 3 college fictional analysis classes, and honestly, i walked out of all three feeling like the professor was twisting everything they read to fit their pre-conceived notions of what the text SHOULD be like.

Really?
I had one professor in literature analysis, whos first advice was, that one should never attempt to do an analysis alone. He adviced to either do it in a group, featuring different types of people. The alternative was, to play advocatus diaboli and try to find other interpretations, even if they seemed absurd to oneself, while attacking the own favored one, searching for mistakes and inconsisties.

Now have a look at my user title.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh.

I'm rather certainly a "genious beyond reproach", merely because I think I'm more educated than most people around here. An idea, that stems from the fact that I'm 5 to 10 years older than most people here. I'm also so damn arrogant to assume, that I'm better in my field of study (the interpretation of fictional sources) than people who did not study the subject. Gosh. What an assine assumption. Everybody knows people who have spent literally thousands of hours with a certain subject don't have a greater insight to it than your Average Joe. Wonder why you need to study medicine in order to be allowed to remove an appendix. I can find the thing with a diagram taken from Wikipedia and it can't be that hard to make some cuts, correct?

Yup. That's so arrogant. But somehow, being a high-school student that assumes his education and abilities are on par or above that of University graduades doesn't make you arrogant. It makes you "Gideon" - the only six letter synonym for hypocrisy.

Most Star Wars literature is written for the "avarage joe" to read and to understand. So stop acting like everyone here is ignorant on fictional sources of SW except for you.

RagingBoner
(I also appreciate the delicious irony of the situation: Nai being German, and JT revealing his Grammar Nazi allegiance. teehehe)

E


Really, I haven't seen such compelling roleplay since the other night with Kyle's mom.

It didn't take long for people in this forum to dissolve into squabbling little bitches.

Is this the true power of Gideon and Janus' influence on the forums?!

Blax
It didn't take long for people in this forum to dissolve into squabbling little bitches.

Is this the true power of Gideon and Janus' influence on the forums?!

There is only one Lord of the RingsForums and he does not share power.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh.

I'm rather certainly a "genious beyond reproach", merely because I think I'm more educated than most people around here. An idea, that stems from the fact that I'm 5 to 10 years older than most people here. I'm also so damn arrogant to assume, that I'm better in my field of study (the interpretation of fictional sources) than people who did not study the subject. Gosh. What an assine assumption. Everybody knows people who have spent literally thousands of hours with a certain subject don't have a greater insight to it than your Average Joe. Wonder why you need to study medicine in order to be allowed to remove an appendix. I can find the thing with a diagram taken from Wikipedia and it can't be that hard to make some cuts, correct?

Yup. That's so arrogant. But somehow, being a high-school student that assumes his education and abilities are on par or above that of University graduades doesn't make you arrogant. It makes you "Gideon" - the only six letter synonym for hypocrisy. Woah, woah, woah.

Did you not see that I was disagreeing with the foolish laymen who don't believe that your intelligence/awesomeness is the gotdamn end all/be all? Come on nah.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Really, I haven't seen such compelling roleplay since the other night with Kyle's mom.








That's cute. Are you a cleric, or a paladin?

Z
That's cute. Are you a cleric, or a paladin?

I am, in fact, a sorcerer. She is my mentally handicapped but attractive apprentice who spends most of her time handling my staff in the late hours of the night if you know what I mean.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I am, in fact, a sorcerer. She is my mentally handicapped but attractive apprentice who spends most of her time handling my staff in the late hours of the night if you know what I mean.

Kind of dangerous isn't it? What if she accidentally sets it off?

Lucy
Kind of dangerous isn't it? What if she accidentally sets it off?

Oh, when she sets it off, it's no accident. But to answer your question, what usually happens is that I just politely inform her that she missed a spot near the corner of her mouth.

Too far.

lol

AVADA KEDAVRA!

But I have the Elder Wand.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
But I have the Elder Wand.

Old and shrivelled?

Lucy
Old and shrivelled?

I prefer to think of it as experienced and venerable. It's been wielded by many peoplewomen only, because I ain't gay.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I prefer to think of it as experienced and venerable. It's been wielded by many peoplewomen only, because I ain't gay. You let a woman handle your wand? What kinda sissy, nancy-boy are you?

Lucien
You let a woman handle your wand? What kinda sissy, nancy-boy are you?

OMG ur so sexist.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
OMG ur so sexY. Yes, I know.

Hey! Y-you changed his post!

Reported.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes, I know.

He's got a fetish for your eyepatch.

Jokes on him, tough guy, I can't read don't really have an eyepatch.



I have a prosthetic eye that shoots lasers.

No, we can see your eyepatch. We can see it.

Yeah well I can see your face. And it's awful.

JOURNEY'S NEW ALBUM IS THE GREATEST THING EVER I LOVE IT

Originally posted by Borbarad

my field of study (the interpretation of fictional sources)

Why... why would you study something like that? What's the point?

Way to go, Slash. You've just opened an argument over the purpose behind intellectualism and liberal education.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Why... why would you study something like that? What's the point?

Helps if you want to major in religion.

Oh snap!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Most Star Wars literature is written for the "avarage joe" to read and to understand.

Really?

"the laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength". - Slave Ship, p. 248

So your "average Joe" is familiar with the SI unit system and with the different orders of magnitude, allowing him to fully comprehend the above statement? But, perhabs more important: How many "average Joes" do you think would ask themselves, why the hell an energy weapon would generate recoil?



Thanks for attemting to straw man me once again. I'm not assuming that anybody here is ignorant to the sources. If I were, I wouldn't talk to anybody here. I'm just saying you're far away from reading the sources like I do it, because you lack my training in the field. I can give you six possible ways of reception for the statement above, ranging from taking it literal over tech appreciation to critical statements, with five possible intentions of the author derived from the ways the quote can be received. In addition, I automatically consider methods from the fields of discourse analysis, hermeneutics and intertextuality, in order to get a "better" access to the text - or context. The latter being commonly ignored here. Or did you ever consider the idea that some statement apparent in a fictional source might, indeed, be a figure of speech rather than being meant literal? If you did, I must have missed the event of the century.

Sometimes you have to take a step back, putting your own (favored) interpretation of a source aside and perceive other ways to deal with them. Sometimes you have to take other passages of the same source or even other sources into consideration, in order to understand what you've just read. Did you ever do that?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Why... why would you study something like that? What's the point?

I studied a subject called "Linguistics, culture, literature and communication", formely known as "philology". The analysis of fictional sources, ranging from literature to movies, was part of the subject. As my second subject was history, I went through even more literature analysis, because German historians are pretty pedantic when it comes to the study and verification of sources. Before that, I've done some philosophy, focusing on related concepts (e.g. logic, narratology) and theories regarding human perception. And I learned some additional languages.

The point? Earning money. Works pretty well. And what did you do in the past five years?

-Microsoft IT Academy Coordinator and Network Engineer at Edison Community College.
-Owner of Computer Salvation
-B.S., Western Governors University; A.A.S., Edison Community College

Certified as such: A+, Project+, CIW Web Professional, CCAI, MCT, MCSE, MCSA, MCP


You're not the only one with an education around here Borbarad. So please quit peacocking like you are.

Other than that, I appreciate the in-depth analysis, whether I agree with it or not.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
You're not the only one with an education around here Borbarad.

I'd hope that everybody here has an education.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'd hope that everybody here has an education.

I'm a history/philosophy major.

Ancient Sith win. My work here is done.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm a history/philosophy major.

Ancient Sith win. My work here is done.

Nai, i find it VERY ironic that you are telling someone else to look at something from a fresh perspective, when you consider your own perspective infallible. As you said yourself, one should never interpret fiction on their own, you should do so with the opinions of others, and their perspectives considered. However, in many arguments on this forum, you hold to your own interpretation as INFALLIBLE, despite the fact that every other interpretation of the text besides yours disagrees with you.

Originally posted by truejedi
Nai, i find it VERY ironic that you are telling someone else to look at something from a fresh perspective, when you consider your own perspective infallible. As you said yourself, one should never interpret fiction on their own, you should do so with the opinions of others, and their perspectives considered. However, in many arguments on this forum, you hold to your own interpretation as INFALLIBLE, despite the fact that every other interpretation of the text besides yours disagrees with you.

And I find it VERY ironic, that, despite of me lecturing people on it multiple times, you still haven't understood my modus operandi. My behaviour forces people to look at topics in a way the would probably not have considered. Hence my user title (to which I've also pointed multiple times before), which also incorporates considering different interpretations to a certain subject. I do that. Which doesn't mean I deliver an argument based on that considerations. I'm here to argue, not to have people agree with me (another thing I've told the audience multiple times now).

If I was really considering my interpretations INFALLIBLE, I'd do the Gideon here and write essays about how right I am. Did I do that? No. Did I ever type a reply here with the intention to convince people I am right? Hell, no. I'd treat them in a different fashion, if that was my goal and I would deliver arguments following classic rhetorics / sophistics if that was my intention.

Couple that with the fact that my main "antagonist" here is a guy that wants to convince people "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that his opinions are correct (read: Gideon) and you might come to the conclusion, that you're lecturing the wrong person here.

Aren't you?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm a history/philosophy major.

Ancient Sith win. My work here is done.




I've decided to get a philosophy minor (ethics) to counteract the evil of an econ degree. (Or to make corruption hilariously ironic later in life.)

You guys picked some boring ass majors.

Where are all the engineers and other manly fields?

I'm currently studying Science Fiction.

That's.... kinda manly, right?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You guys picked some boring ass majors.

Where are all the engineers and other manly fields?

Read: Network Engineer

But yes, philosophy, linguistics, and the other thing =

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You guys picked some boring ass majors.

Where are all the engineers and other manly fields?
Engineering schools are filled with socially awkward nerds, hence "XKCD."

Underclassmen Engineers (the ones too young to drink) are unbearable. (Actually, underclassmen college kids in general are unbearable.)

I mean manly engineers. Like... train conductor... engineers...

I'm technically a student at the School of Sciences and Engineering, although my degree is Visual Communications with a minor in Russian History.

Well, my long-term plan is to get my doctorate so that I can get a job that lets me save enough to afford the local community college's Truck Driving program. Does that count?

Z
Well, my long-term plan is to get my doctorate so that I can get a job that lets me save enough to afford the local community college's Truck Driving program. Does that count?

Simply pledge your eventual substantial salary to the use of whores and booze and you'll rest Blax's concerns.

Well, as long as everyone is stating their studies. I'm in my final year Marketing.

Originally posted by Lucius
I'm technically a student at the School of Sciences and Engineering, although my degree is Visual Communications with a minor in Russian History.

So you make signs and talk about vodka, bears, and rockets? Gotcha.

I may change my major this fall. Ethics is good for personal enrichment but may threaten higher level management on a resume. I must blend in like a mako in a sea of ah... makos. Perhaps business management. That looks great on paper!