Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Location: An ancient roman arena

Postions: two different corners of the arena

Who wins?

Mace Windu is perhaps Dooku's equal on neutral grounds.

according to dooku (who also though he was more powerful than yoda....)

i replied once.

Windu. Vaapad gives him an advantage against any Sith, and heck he was holding his own just fine against Dooku's boss.

Do Roman arenas have corners? I always think of them as round.

Again, depending on your outlook a circular arena can have either zero corners or an infinite number of corners. With an infinite number of points (each with zero area, of course) on that line, there is an infinite probability that the two combatants will spawn on top of one another (it would look like shearing from a videogame) and then undergo nuclear fusion.

Dooku Windu, you do voodoo.

Mace > Palpatine > Dooku.

If Dooku were a practitioner of the light side of the force, he an Mace would likely stalemate. However, since Dooku channels copius amounts of the dark side when he battles, Vaapad would give Mace a decisive edge.

Woah! You changed your avatar.

Am I alone in thinking that Krayt looks a lot cooler without the armor?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Am I alone in thinking that Krayt looks a lot cooler without the armor?

I like both looks, but he does look more focused without it. Like he's just as dangerous, but he keeps it within him more.

Hi,

At first - sry for my bad english, i've hope that you can understeand what i mean.

Originally posted by Galan007
Mace > Palpatine > Dooku.

If Dooku were a practitioner of the light side of the force, he an Mace would likely stalemate. However, since Dooku channels copius amounts of the dark side when he battles, Vaapad would give Mace a decisive edge.

Its bad point in my opinion. Mace was a master of vaapad, and Palpatine was master of Juyo. I personally belive, that vaapad is ultimate form of juyo, so in this point Mace has an advantage to Palpatine, and he was probably the best counter vs him.
So ok... Mace > Palpatine in saber combat.

But Dooku < Palpatine? Can you prove it? Overall - ofcourse, Palpatine was a far better (Lucas said that's Dooku was about 80% of Palpatine's streght?). But in pure saber fight? I'm not so sure... Dooku was Makashi master - the best fighting style for duel. Canon scources put Dooku on the same level with Yoda and Windu.
In fact Palpatine lost saber fight with Windu, and probably was weaker duelist then Yoda - at the end of their fight he attacked him only by force, and he dont use his saber anymore (mby he lost it, or something?).
So if Yoda and Winu can fight Palpatine with sabers, why Dooku wouldn't?

And finally - Dooku vs Mace...

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground." - Yoda - Dark Rendezvous

"In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku." - databank

So - its possible that Mace won a some sparings with Dooku, and its possible that he wont. And Dooku beasted him once, or more times...
Its like... x+1 vs y
x - duels won by Dooku
y - duels won by Mace

And in my opinion Vaapad doesn't give advantage vs Dooku...
Dooku was the sith - its true. But he fight more like jedi... he doesn't use an emotional techniques like Maul or Palpatine, and doestnt use his anger and fury like others Sith Lords...

Originally posted by Lineael
Hi,

At first - sry for my bad english, i've hope that you can understeand what i mean.



Its bad point in my opinion. Mace was a master of vaapad, and Palpatine was master of Juyo. I personally belive, that vaapad is ultimate form of juyo, so in this point Mace has an advantage to Palpatine, and he was probably the best counter vs him.
So ok... Mace > Palpatine in saber combat.

But Dooku < Palpatine? Can you prove it? Overall - ofcourse, Palpatine was a far better (Lucas said that's Dooku was about 80% of Palpatine's streght?). But in pure saber fight? I'm not so sure... Dooku was Makashi master - the best fighting style for duel. Canon scources put Dooku on the same level with Yoda and Windu.
In fact Palpatine lost saber fight with Windu, and probably was weaker duelist then Yoda - at the end of their fight he attacked him only by force, and he dont use his saber anymore (mby he lost it, or something?).
So if Yoda and Winu can fight Palpatine with sabers, why Dooku wouldn't?

And finally - Dooku vs Mace...

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground." - Yoda - Dark Rendezvous

"In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku." - databank

So - its possible that Mace won a some sparings with Dooku, and its possible that he wont. And Dooku beasted him once, or more times...
Its like... x+1 vs y
x - duels won by Dooku
y - duels won by Mace

And in my opinion Vaapad doesn't give advantage vs Dooku...
Dooku was the sith - its true. But he fight more like jedi... he doesn't use an emotional techniques like Maul or Palpatine, and doestnt use his anger and fury like others Sith Lords...

1. Lucas stated that ANAKIN was 80 percent of Sidious, NOT Dooku.

2. Besting Mace Windu, a Vaapad user in a sparring contest is FAR FAR FAR different than in all-out combat. I seriously doubt Mace Windu utilized Vaapad during a mere sparring contest, seeing as how it was only to be used when absolutely needed, NOT for casual use.

3. Vaapad is an advantage aginst all opponents, not just darksiders. Your comment demonstrates a fundamental flaw in your understanding of Vaapad.

4. I have no doubt that Mace Windu would lay one proper smack down after another on Dooku's candy ass.

Originally posted by Lineael
Its bad point in my opinion. Mace was a master of vaapad, and Palpatine was master of Juyo. I personally belive, that vaapad is ultimate form of juyo, so in this point Mace has an advantage to Palpatine, and he was probably the best counter vs him.
So ok... Mace > Palpatine in saber combat.

But Dooku < Palpatine? Can you prove it? Overall - ofcourse, Palpatine was a far better (Lucas said that's Dooku was about 80% of Palpatine's streght?). But in pure saber fight? I'm not so sure... Dooku was Makashi master - the best fighting style for duel. Canon scources put Dooku on the same level with Yoda and Windu.
In fact Palpatine lost saber fight with Windu, and probably was weaker duelist then Yoda - at the end of their fight he attacked him only by force, and he dont use his saber anymore (mby he lost it, or something?).
So if Yoda and Winu can fight Palpatine with sabers, why Dooku wouldn't?

And finally - Dooku vs Mace...

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground." - Yoda - Dark Rendezvous

"In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku." - databank

So - its possible that Mace won a some sparings with Dooku, and its possible that he wont. And Dooku beasted him once, or more times...
Its like... x+1 vs y
x - duels won by Dooku
y - duels won by Mace

And in my opinion Vaapad doesn't give advantage vs Dooku...
Dooku was the sith - its true. But he fight more like jedi... he doesn't use an emotional techniques like Maul or Palpatine, and doestnt use his anger and fury like others Sith Lords... +1 for completely ignoring what Vaapad does.

Vaapad isn't just a form of combat, it is a state of mind - so comparing it to Juyo as though they are one in the same is extremely faulty. Through Vaapad, Mace is able to perpetually channel his opponent's energies into himself, and redirect them back at his opponent (thus completing a 'superconducting loop')... THAT is how he beat Palpatine, and THAT is why he would beat an opponent who is inferior to Palpatine (ie. Dooku.)

Originally posted by Galan007
+1 for completely ignoring what Vaapad does.

Vaapad isn't just a form of combat, it is a state of mind - so comparing it to Juyo as though they are one in the same is extremely faulty. Through Vaapad, Mace is able to perpetually channel his opponent's energies into himself, and redirect them back at his opponent (thus completing a 'superconducting loop')... THAT is how he beat Palpatine, and THAT is why he would beat an opponent who is inferior to Palpatine (ie. Dooku.)

Thank you - and not only his opponents dark energies, but his own as well.

Originally posted by Galan007
+1 for completely ignoring what Vaapad does.

Vaapad isn't just a form of combat, it is a state of mind - so comparing it to Juyo as though they are one in the same is extremely faulty. Through Vaapad, Mace is able to perpetually channel his opponent's energies into himself, and redirect them back at his opponent (thus completing a 'superconducting loop')... THAT is how he beat Palpatine, and THAT is why he would beat an opponent who is inferior to Palpatine (ie. Dooku.)

Wait, wait.... we still talk about saber fight between this two(windu-sidious)? Or overall? If overall...
There is a few group of people with diffrent opinions about some duels...
I personally think that Windu was better then Palpatine in saber fight (and here Windu with vaapad only wasn't strong enough to win, he needs a shatterpoint), but in force? In my opinion when Palpatine attacks Windu with force lightning, it wasn't a real fight... it was fake, an art for Anakin.

Originally posted by Lineael
Wait, wait.... we still talk about saber fight between this two(windu-sidious)? Or overall? If overall...
There is a few group of people with diffrent opinions about some duels...
I personally think that Windu was better then Palpatine in saber fight (and here Windu with vaapad only wasn't strong enough to win, he needs a shatterpoint), but in force? In my opinion when Palpatine attacks Windu with force lightning, it wasn't a real fight... it was fake, an art for Anakin. Palpatine's overall power with the force was FAR greater than Mace's - never said otherwise... But in their all-out battle, where Mace was able to actively employ Vaapad, he became superior to Palpatine, because he was able to channel Palpatine's own energies, and direct them offensively right back at their source (ie. the superconducting loop.)

The same would happen to Dooku in this battle. His dark sided powers would only serve to fuel Vaapad/Mace, thereby perpetuating his defeat.

The novel makes it clear that Sidious and Mace Windu were equals with the saber. Mace Windu won only because he has shatterpoint.

Originally posted by ares834
Mace Windu won only because he has shatterpoint. The only Shatterpoint that was referenced during Mace and Palpatine's battle, was Anakin -- and him being present is certainly not why Mace won... "Turning the Shadow's fear into a weapon" is how he prevailed in the end.

Originally posted by Galan007
The same would happen to Dooku in this battle. His dark sided powers would only serve to fuel Vaapad/Mace, thereby perpetuating his defeat.

Agree here
Vaapad was great vs Juyo, dark side force's attacks etc. Anway Dooku probably wont be using his powers versus Mace... It might be a saber duel (both of them were more a fenciers then force users... anway Dooku was great in both categories).

And Dooku has a little advantage in saber duel in my opinion.... coz "Mace Windu is perhaps Dooku's equal on neutral grounds."

^ Mace would spank that ass.

Originally posted by Lineael
Agree here
Vaapad was great vs Juyo, dark side force's attacks etc. Anway Dooku probably wont be using his powers versus Mace... It might be a saber duel (both of them were more a fenciers then force users... anway Dooku was great in both categories).

And Dooku has a little advantage in saber duel in my opinion.... coz "Mace Windu is perhaps Dooku's equal on neutral grounds."

Don't forget the qualifier - 'ONLY' - meaning that other Jedi other than Mace or Yoda are possibly on par with Dooku.

Here is the quote:

Among the other Jedi, perhaps ONLY Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible — wickedness cut in red light.

The "perhaps" really makes that quote useless, which is unfortunate.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Don't forget the qualifier - 'ONLY' - meaning that other Jedi other than Mace or Yoda are possibly on par with Dooku.

Yeah, i know. And? I agree that Windu and Dooku was equal... Personally I think, that Makashi would be better counter to Vaapad, then Vaapad to Makashi + Dooku has a more experience. That's all.

Originally posted by Galan007
The only Shatterpoint that was referenced during Mace and Palpatine's battle, was Anakin -- and him being present is certainly not why Mace won... "Turning the Shadow's fear into a weapon" is how he prevailed in the end.

Just read it your right. However, the novel makes it clear that Mace Widnu and Sidious were dead even. Neither was superior to the other and this was only due to Vaapad's superconducting loop.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The "perhaps" really makes that quote useless, which is unfortunate.

It does somewhat offset the rest of the quote.

Originally posted by ares834
Just read it your right. However, the novel makes it clear that Mace Widnu and Sidious were dead even. Neither was superior to the other and this was only due to Vaapad's superconducting loop.

No, the novel makes it clear that WITHOUT Mace's shatterpoint ability, they would have continued to battle without end. Guess what? Mace has shatterpoint though, so they are not equal.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No, the novel makes it clear that WITHOUT Mace's shatterpoint ability, they would have continued to battle without end. Guess what? Mace has shatterpoint though, so they are not equal.

As Galan pointed out Shatterpoint did nothing for Mace...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Am I alone in thinking that Krayt looks a lot cooler without the armor? No

Windu wins though.

Originally posted by ares834
As Galan pointed out Shatterpoint did nothing for Mace...

Meh!

Either way, they were not equal.

Originally posted by Galan007
+1 for completely ignoring what Vaapad does.

Vaapad isn't just a form of combat, it is a state of mind - so comparing it to Juyo as though they are one in the same is extremely faulty. Through Vaapad, Mace is able to perpetually channel his opponent's energies into himself, and redirect them back at his opponent (thus completing a 'superconducting loop')... THAT is how he beat Palpatine, and THAT is why he would beat an opponent who is inferior to Palpatine (ie. Dooku.)

+1 for ignoring what a superconductor does.

It offers zero resistance to a(n electric) current flowing through it. So a "superconducting loop" would be a loop in which a certain form of energy (in this case "dark side force energy" passes through again and again and again without meeting any resistance.

How exactly does that help Mace to win?
It doesn't. It merely prevents that he is getting affected by the Dark Side energies of his opponent and enables him to utilize his own dark feelings. The first doesn't result in a disadvantage for his opponent, while the second was the prerequisite for utilizing Vaapad, so it has always been done when Mace Windu sparred with Dooku. The same is the case for Windu's Shatterpoint ability, which was the real deciding factor in fighting Sidious.

So, as it seems, the two would still be equal in terms of blade work (since they've both increased their skill during the Clone Wars), yet Dooku has demonstrated the ability to survive on his own against Windu and Kenobi ("Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Republic Heroes". He seems to be a superior tactician (in the duelling department) in comparison to Windu, and he's definitely better in encorporating force attacks into his fencing. Add the fact that he will probably attempt to use dirty tricks, and I think he would defeat Windu more often than not, as long as they are standing on equal ground.

Originally posted by Borbarad
yet Dooku has demonstrated the ability to survive on his own against Windu and Kenobi ("Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Republic Heroes".

What the hell is this?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What the hell is this?

_1ieRQ-4BB4

He is defeated in the end, yet still escapes.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What the hell is this?

Youtube Link

The battle is gameplay mostly, so all that can be determined is that eventually Mace and Kenobi overcame him. His Force showings are pretty uber, however.

That's the scene I assumed you were talking about. Honestly, the fact that the entire fight is gameplay, and the fact that there's no indication of time, makes the scene almost irrelevant- well ninja'd for the most part.

And yeah, I was impressed by the TK he used there as well.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
That's the scene I assumed you were talking about. Honestly, the fact that the entire fight is gameplay, and the fact that there's no indication of time, makes the scene almost irrelevant- well ninja'd fo rthe most part.

And yeah, I was impressed by the TK he used there as well.

How does time matter? Windu had made up his mind and decided to kill Dooku, when they should meet again. Obviously, he isn't capable of doing this fast, given that the duo didn't cut the Count into pieces within seconds.

That aside: The TK was pretty impressive. Apparently, he's also responsible for the destruction of the platform (with lightning of his being reflected back).

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Meh!

Either way, they were not equal.

Why? Because Mace Windu won? That doesn't mean they aren't equal.

Regardless, the novel makes it clear that they were equal.

Originally posted by Borbarad
How does time matter? Windu had made up his mind and decided to kill Dooku, when they should meet again. Obviously, he isn't capable of doing this fast, given that the duo didn't cut the Count into pieces within seconds.


ANH Obi-Wan could probably "hold his own" against RotS Dooku for 2 seconds.

If you have no idea how long the fight lasted then it's meaningless. Dooku being able to hold his own against Mace and Obi-Wan for 5 seconds before running away/fight interrupted is not impressive in the least.

yeah, Blax has it right. Perhaps Dooku Ran away after 2 seconds, we don't really know...

It's a little surprising that Count Dooku would battle both at all considering their reputations.

Both sides are neglecting the probable but not definite presence (given the fact that gameplay mechanics aren't canon) of MagnaGuards and other droids. The good Count would likely be able to hold his own against Windu and Kenobi if he was leading a large enough contingent of droids.

It's not neglecting so much as not mentioning because it's common sense, you enigmatic chipmunk. The focus of the discussers in this here thread is on the fight that starts after all of the droids have been destroyed, not while Obi-Wan and Mace are slaughtering the mechanical redshirts and Dooku is monologuing on top of that thingamabob.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's not neglecting so much as not mentioning because it's common sense, you enigmatic chipmunk. The focus of the discussers in this here thread is on the fight that starts after all of the droids have been destroyed, not while Obi-Wan and Mace are slaughtering the mechanical redshirts and Dooku is monologuing on top of that thingamabob.

Who's to say that they were destroyed before the duel concluded?

your mom

he makes a fair point. a trigger for Dooku to talk on top of the thingamabob is DEFINITLY a game mechanic.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The same is the case for Windu's Shatterpoint ability, which was the real deciding factor in fighting Sidious. Nope. Shatterpoint had nothing to do with Mace winning. Like I mentioned above: the only Shatterpoint that was specifically mentioned during Mace/Palpatine's duel, was Anakin -- and Mace noticing him as Palpatine's 'largest' Shatterpoint is certainly not why/how he won.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So, as it seems, the two would still be equal in terms of blade work (since they've both increased their skill during the Clone Wars), yet Dooku has demonstrated the ability to survive on his own against Windu and Kenobi ("Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Republic Heroes". He seems to be a superior tactician (in the duelling department) in comparison to Windu, and he's definitely better in encorporating force attacks into his fencing. Add the fact that he will probably attempt to use dirty tricks, and I think he would defeat Windu more often than not, as long as they are standing on equal ground. Meh, Mace =(arguably &gt Palpatine in an 'all-out' setting, thanks to Vaapad. Pretty sure that Palpatine would crush Dooku in the same type of setting.

Imo: Mace > Palpatine > Dooku. If Dooku were a light sided user of the force, however, I'd give him the slight nod vs. Mace.

Originally posted by Borbarad
prevents that he is getting affected by the Dark Side energies of his opponent and enables him to utilize his own dark feelings.

Borbarad I have one question and one observation.

#1 - How would Mace, without Vaapad of course, be affected by his opponents "dark side energies" (other than the obvious side effects of being cooked by Sith lightning and things of that nature)?

#2- I understand the concept of a superconductor, however the RotS novel states that Vaapad enables Mace to reflect Sidious' rage, hatred, speed, etc... back at him.

Originally posted by ares834
Why? Because Mace Windu won? That doesn't mean they aren't equal.

Regardless, the novel makes it clear that they were equal.

No, the novel makes it clear that without shatterpoint they would battle perpetually - this has already been stated. I understand the issue with the shatterpoint being Anakin, and the novel not stating that Anakin lead to Sidious' loss. However, you cannot accept one implication from the novel and then leave the other one out just because it doesn't fit your philosophy or support your argument.

Yes what I just wrote sounds choppy, and for that I apologize. I'm at work and rushing my response.

The novel (and the movie, the script, as well as GL's commentary) makes it clear that Mace overpowered Sidious. So, from the evidence at hand, Mace is not = to Sidious, he is > than Sidious.

i agree with that.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The novel (and the movie, the script, as well as GL's commentary) makes it clear that Mace overpowered Sidious. So, from the evidence at hand, Mace is not = to Sidious, he is > than Sidious.

Obi-Wan Kenobi also "overpowered" Anakin... But that doesn't mean Obi-Wan Kenobi > Anakin.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No, the novel makes it clear that without shatterpoint they would battle perpetually - this has already been stated. I understand the issue with the shatterpoint being Anakin, and the novel not stating that Anakin lead to Sidious' loss. However, you cannot accept one implication from the novel and then leave the other one out just because it doesn't fit your philosophy or support your argument.

What am I leaving out?

Yes, there is the quote saying the contest would go on forever if Vaapad was Mace's only gift, but the Shatterpoint, as Galan pointed out, was completley ineffectial. Following that Mace won due to enviormental conditions.

Originally posted by ares834
Obi-Wan Kenobi also "overpowered" Anakin... But that doesn't mean Obi-Wan Kenobi > Anakin.

First, let's be clear; Obi-wan never 'overpowered' Anakin. He defeated him yes, but not by overpowering him. Now, with that being said, I would surmise that yes, between the two, in one-on-one combat with each other, Kenobi is Anakin's superior through resourcefulness, patience, clarity of mind, cunning, and experience.

JT
First, let's be clear; Obi-wan never 'overpowered' Anakin. He defeated him yes, but not by overpowering him. Now, with that being said, I would surmise that yes, between the two, in one-on-one combat with each other, Kenobi is Anakin's superior through resourcefulness, patience, clarity of mind, cunning, and experience.



I would say that, based on the first and second definition, Obi-Wan's defeat of Anakin qualifies. In fact, I'd say you'd be hard pressed not to find an example of a duel in Star Wars that doesn't meet that criteria.

um, obi-wan is too better than anakin.

I would say that, based on the first and second definition, Obi-Wan's defeat of Anakin qualifies. In fact, I'd say you'd be hard pressed not to find an example of a duel in Star Wars that doesn't meet that criteria.

Not really. Obi-Wab hardly defeated Anakin through 'superior force' nor did he 'overwhelm' him. He counter-attacked at a moment in which Anakin, through his own recklessness, left himself open. To overwelm implies that you have to have some resistence to pverpower. Obi-Wan took advantage of a time in which Anakin was defenceless, and thus, he did not overpower him at all.

Semantics is kewl!

Originally posted by truejedi
um, obi-wan is too better than anakin.

I said that.

um, anakin was defenseless cause Obi-wan was better. you didn't see obi-wan being all defenseless all the time, no. he was downright defensive, he was.

What Nephthys said.

N.
Not really.

No, really.



Anakin's 'force' kept knocking Obi-Wan back. Obi-Wan's 'force' left Anakin a charred, mutilated, limbless corpse-thingymabob. I'd say his application of force was certainly superior.



Anakin was not defenseless. He was still equipped with his lightsaber and his Force powers, cognizant of the threat Obi-Wan posed (Obi-Wan even extended the courtesy of warning him, gentleman that he is), and was still intending to kill him. Obi-Wan simply happened to be faster at that moment, Anakin was unable to deflect in time.





Yes, yes they are.

Originally posted by truejedi
um, anakin was defenseless cause Obi-wan was better. you didn't see obi-wan being all defenseless all the time, no. he was downright defensive, he was.

If Anakin wasn't such a tool I would be willling to say that he would have won that duel personally.

but he is such a tool, and he will be in every duel they ever fight.

Originally posted by truejedi
but he is such a tool, and he will be in every duel they ever fight.

He is a tool in regards to being a pawn of the Sith (!) but he ain't no foo' if you watch TCW. ^_^

G.
No, really.

Nuh-uh!





It is not the thing they utilised to win but rather how they were utilised that matters here sir.



You can't dodge in mid-air.



If you watch the scene in question you'll notice that Anakins lightsaber was all the way above his head when Obi-Wan cut him, so having his lightsaber did jack shit.




Which would do what to a speeding lightsaber? Anakin's no Shaak Ti (or starkiller), he can't stop a lightsaber with the Force.



Hence why I called him a tool. If he had just waited he could have found a much safer place to get off.



He was somersaulting in mid-air with his lightsaber in the opposite direction from what it would need to be to deflect Ob-Wan's. And you can't fall any faster than anything else. As soon as Anakin took to the air his speed became bunk.





Mace didn't counter attack in a moment of defenelssness though. He outduelled Sidious and disarmed him through superior skill as well as his Shatterpoint charism.




Anakin in the CWC wasn't insane though.

no u



There is no difference.



You can, if you're a trained swordsman and powerful Force user, swing that glowing stick in your hand, though.










Force powers, from the "fastest Jedi of his generation. Perhaps any generation" (ROTS novel)? Anakin's Force powers and training that made him faster than Obi-Wan were still in play.



Who said anything about falling faster?



Neither Anakin nor Palpatine were defenseless. They both had lethal intent, their various weapons, access to their training, and Anakin even had the courtesy of a warning.



And Obi-Wan outdueled Anakin and disarmed him through an application of superior force.

Unfortunately, it is you, who is the one, who is, in fact, incorrect.



On guy outduelled and disarmed his opponent and one guy cut a guys legs off while he was spinning in mid-air unable to defend himself. Seems pretty ****in' different to me.



So wait, you say that Obi-Wan was faster, and then in the next you provide a quote saying that Anakin was the fastest of his generation? Lmao.

And how exactly could Anakin use his speed at all when he's spinning in mid-air waiting to land? What, should he have spun around like fvcking Sonic or something, lol?



Not in mid-air. As I said last time, Anakins speed was made bunk by his jump, his lightsaber wasn't in position to allow him to lock Kenobi's strike and he was utterly exposesd. Thanks for playing.



Anakin was essentially defenceless while he was jumping. Obi-Wan still had access to his enhanced speed and reflexes while Anakin had to wait for gravity to land him as well as leaving himself defenceless during the majority of his somersault while his lightsaber was too far to use to block.

So basically I'm saying something about it.



Bullshit.



A warning that you are about to be left defenceless does not stop you from being defenceless, it just makes you a reckless ****.



No he didnt. Anakin was at the time unale to duel or bring any force to bare. I.E. He was defenceless at the time when Kenobi counter-attacked.

The fact that neither Anakin nor Palpatine defended themselves from the maneuver that defeated them doesn't disqualify the term being used.









Anakin, in most scenarios, is a faster fighter than Obi-Wan (presumably) due to his greater connection to the Force. If I'm quicker than you, and we get into a fight, does that mean I'll always be able to block your attacks or that you'll never move quicker than me?



Palpatine did.





I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but arms can move. Your confession that the attack wasn't "overpowering" simply because you think Anakin wasn't in a position to adequately defend himself is interesting, given that the same could be argued for Palpatine. Anakin, like his Master, wasn't anticipating his opponent's next attack and paid the price. That doesn't mean they both weren't overpowered.



He could have drawn on his intense combat training and Force speed to move his arm and attempt to deflect. The fact that he did not, just as Palpatine didn't dodge or deflect Mace's kick, doesn't mean he wasn't overpowered.

Forget about the semantics and all the other garbage. To be somewhat more clear (and I use that term loosely); Mace was overpowering Sidious throughout a significant (time-wise) portion of their duel, while Kenobi "overpowered" Anakins arm and legs with his lightsaber at one key, very brief point in their duel.

There is a difference.

JT
Forget about the semantics and all the other garbage. To be somewhat more clear (and I use that term loosely);

I used your mother loosely last night, Trebek!



Which means?



What difference?

Not while a guy with a manly beard hacked at his legs, he didn't.



Palpatne couldn't block because of inferior prowess. Anakin couldn't block because he simply couldn't.

I trust i don't need to tell you the difference.



They cannot however contort across your body and block a blow in mid-air however. Firstly he has nothing to brace himself against, making blocking with a lightsaber a really ****ing stupid thing to attempt unless he actually wanted to lose a few limbs and secondly he was pirruetting through mid-air with Obi-Wan attacking at a point when his arms are completely above his head and couldn't possibly block.



No, it couldn't. Palpatine was in a position to defend himself. Thats what he was fvcking doing at the time, defending himself! His defence was simply too weak. Anakin literally couldn't defend himself. Hence he wasn't 'overwhelmed', he was 'cut in fvcking half'.

Actually, I concede this. A better term for what Kenobi did would be outmaneuver, whereas the closest analog to Mace vs. Palpatine would be Anakin vs. Dooku.

Wow, someone in this forum actually conceeded. eek

I...... don't know how to react......

Victory is... mine?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, someone in this forum actually conceeded. eek

I...... don't know how to react......

It's just a better term. For example, General Grievous was outmaneuvered by Obi-Wan's superior bladework. The same for Dooku's duels with Anakin and Obi-Wan in Attack of the Clones. Overpowered is a better term to describe what happened with Palpatine against Mace, Dooku against Anakin, and Vader against Luke in ROTJ.

Originally posted by RagingBoner

I used your mother loosely last night, Trebek!

Jackhole!! death - I was gonna say something like that but, meh!

Anyway, the difference is... wait... what?



...ok... what are you up to?

JT
...ok... what are you up to?

Such mistrust.

wait.... Anakin couldn't block because of inferior prowess as well. any other argument is ga'ba'age!

Originally posted by truejedi
wait.... Anakin couldn't block because of inferior prowess as well. any other argument is ga'ba'age!

He couldn't block anything, because he made an idiotic move, essentially jumping right into Kenobi's blade. This hadn't anything to do with actual skill in terms of bladework or a normal ability to defend himself. He overestimated his own abilities (or underestimated Kenobi) and got punished for his false judgement.

The only compareable situation to this is the death of Darth Maul...

Borbarad - still curious as to your philosophy on Vaapad. Thanks.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nope. Shatterpoint had nothing to do with Mace winning. Like I mentioned above: the only Shatterpoint that was specifically mentioned during Mace/Palpatine's duel, was Anakin -- and Mace noticing him as Palpatine's 'largest' Shatterpoint is certainly not why/how he won.

I'm slowly getting tired of correcting the severe problems with reading comprehension, that most people here seem to suffer from:

"Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it" - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Vaapad just enabled him to reach an impasse with Sidious that could have lasted forever, if it weren't for his Shatterpoint ability, making the ability the deciding factor in the fight. And he found multiple shatterpoints, just identifying the largets one first. He still used the Shatterpoint ability to defeat Sidious.



Your conclusions don't make sense.
If we can trust Dooku and several other sources, Dooku was at least equal or superior to Mace in terms of lightsaber combat, which includes Windu's Shatterpoint ability. From what we see in the various sources, Dooku's force mastery is also either on par or superior to that of Mace Windu (especially dark side abilities - of course - and telekinesis).

So how can you be "pretty sure" that Dooku would lose to Sidious in an all out fight? I'm rather certain he would lose a force contest against his own master, however, his force mastery (especially his defensive abilites demonstrated by the ability to redirect Sith lightning) should be suffice to survive a - probable - initial force attack by his master, to close distance and defeat him in lightsaber combat.

@Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
#1 - How would Mace, without Vaapad of course, be affected by his opponents "dark side energies" (other than the obvious side effects of being cooked by Sith lightning and things of that nature)?


The text doesn't exactly talk about dark side energies but merely about "darkness", which can be interpreted in different fashions, obviously. To me, that darkness had always been Mace's own dark feelings, rather than some outside force. That's a line of thought that seems to be supported by the RotS novel:

"He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him." - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Rather than limiting himself out of fear to fall to the Dark Side, Vaapad enabled Mace to use all of his strength against an opponent. Again this is pretty much outright stated in the novel, once by Mace Windu himself:

"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light." - Mace Windu, Revenge of the Sith novelization

and once during his fight with Sidious:

"There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose." - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Vaapad isn't some sort of mysterious anti-Dark-Sider lightsaber ability and it also doesn't work extremely well against Dark Siders. It just enables Mace Windu to use all of his very own dark feelings to boost his own ability in terms of lightsaber combat. I think that, for any other kind of interpretation, you have to take certain quotes out of context in a very liberal fashion.



Does it?

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center - And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt." - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Do you want to tell me that Sidious feelings somehow leaked out of his body, then went into Windu's body and back into Sidious body again? That's seems to be a rather odd view. In the context of the novelization (see quotes above), I'd say that Windu, feeling the rage, power and fury of Sidious, answered with his own feelings of the same sort - with Vaapad being the tool to do the job.

No way is Dooku beating Sidious.

N.
No way is Dooku beating Sidious.



Sweet Jesus, you just said the wrong thing to the very wrong person.

Dooku lost to a wounded Yoda on a planet steeped in the darkside. Sidious made Yoda run away like a whipped puppy.

I can see Dooku besting Sidious in a lightsaber contest, but all out? Hard to imagine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No way is Dooku beating Sidious.

Thanks for giving your elaborated argument regarding this issue. You may have noticed how I, clearly with a certain intention, delivered a specific scenario in which this might happen and explaind how it might work.

I neither see a reason for RotS Sidious doing any more damage with lightning to Dooku than he did to Windu (if Dooku has a lightsaber in hand), and neither do I see the master doing better in a lightsaber duel against his apprentice, than he did against Mace, who - according to all available sources - was on par or below Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability.

So. If you have any reasonable argument for you opinion, let me know.

JT
I can see Dooku besting Sidious in a lightsaber contest, but all out? Hard to imagine.

Dooku's conduct with regards to his Master (beginning at the 1:17 mark), in addition to the character's own musings from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous and the Revenge of the Sith novelization indicate a significant distance between Dooku and Sidious (and, by extension, Yoda) in terms of power.





edit: Not to mention comments by George from the Rolling Stone 2005 interview:

"Which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become, but the son could become that."

But I concede this is probably referring to political might.

wait... super-conducting loop thanks to vaapaad WHHHHUUT?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Dooku's conduct with regards to his Master (beginning at the 1:17 mark), in addition to the character's own musings from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous and the Revenge of the Sith novelization indicate a significant distance between Dooku and Sidious (and, by extension, Yoda) in terms of power.





edit: Not to mention comments by George from the Rolling Stone 2005 interview:

"Which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become, but the son could become that."

But I concede this is probably referring to political might.

...ok.

All I said was that I can see Dooku besting Sidious with in a lightsaber dueling contest, not all-out.

Your response is confusing my tired brain.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
...ok.

All I said was that I can see Dooku besting Sidious with in a lightsaber dueling contest, not all-out.

Your response is confusing my tired brain.

I was agreeing with you, and giving you the sources you need for when you are inevitably attacked on this position.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Dooku's conduct with regards to his Master (beginning at the 1:17 mark), in addition to the character's own musings from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous and the Revenge of the Sith novelization indicate a significant distance between Dooku and Sidious (and, by extension, Yoda) in terms of power.





edit: Not to mention comments by George from the Rolling Stone 2005 interview:

"Which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become, but the son could become that."

But I concede this is probably referring to political might.

Wow. Did anybody find the proof that Dooku can't beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel somewhere? I must have missed it somehow in all that absolutely pointless text.

Dooku's personal feelings about Yoda and Sidious are precisely this: his personal feelings. Not factual evidence. I could also point the fact, that any A>B>C arguments mentioning Dooku and Yoda implicitly assume that Sidious and Yoda are indeed equals in terms of ligthsaber combat (contradicted directly by the RotS script), which means they are logically fallacious (which they are anyway). So, to sum that up, you presented proof for Sidious overall superiority over Dooku which nobody did question in the first place.

Thank you very much.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I was agreeing with you, and giving you the sources you need for when you are inevitably attacked on this position.

Thanks!

I'm not completely with it today.

JT
Thanks!

I am but a good Samaritan, a humble helper. Tell no one.

JT
I'm not completely with it today.

I was complete with your mother last night, Trebek! Bwahahaha!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. Did anybody find the proof that Dooku can't beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel somewhere? I must have missed it somehow in all that absolutely pointless text.

This isn't about a "lightsaber duel". From what I've gathered around here, the general consensus is that Dooku is either above or equal to Sidious so far as lightsaber prowess is concerned (I am of the opinion that he is above Sidious in that department). However, in an all-out combat scenerio (i.e. actual combat), most would agree that Sidious is too powerful for Dooku to overcome. This would be supported by Dooku's own thoughts concerning Sidious. If Dooku feels that Sidious is too powerful for him, then his chances of overcoming Sidious in battle diminish.

Sidious's greatest lightsaber feats, tbh, are being disarmed by Yoda, and beaten by Mace. As well as killing the three masters, Saesee, Kit Fisto, and Agen Kolar within 3-5 seconds. (of the three, Fisto is probably the most impressive opponent.)

Dooku's greatest lightsaber feats are:

1. being able to beat Mace at an undetermined time in history, maybe when Mace was 5, we don't even know, nope we don't.

2. Fighting twice with Yoda, but losing each time.

3. Beating AOTC Kenobi, and AOTC Skywalker.

aaaannndd.... as far as greatest feats, I would have to go with Sidious being more impressive.

Am i forgetting something for either one?


so FEATS WARS goes to Sidious.

Quotes wars MIGHT go to Dooku. I don't know any quotes about Sidious's ability with a lightsaber that are that good, except for the "moving like a blur" one that is of questionable canonicity.

Dooku's form is applauded as the purest form... and what else? I know there is more.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
This isn't about a "lightsaber duel". From what I've gathered around here, the general consensus is that Dooku is either above or equal to Sidious so far as lightsaber prowess is concerned (I am of the opinion that he is above Sidious in that department). However, in an all-out combat scenerio (i.e. actual combat), most would agree that Sidious is too powerful for Dooku to overcome.

Because "all out scenario" and "actual combat" usually means "force battle" in the realm of Star Wars...? It's actually very hard to "surprise" another force user with a force attack in direct confrontation. And even in the instances in which a far more powerful force user attacks an opponent, this doesn't automatically lead to instant victory (see AotC Dooku using force lightning against Kenobi).

Since Sidious offensive force department, canonically as of RotS, is pretty much limited to telekinesis (an art in which Dooku excels) and force lightning (which can be blocked with a lightsaber, as demonstrated by Obi-Wan and Mace), I find it rather odd to assume, that Sidious is going to win an "all out fight". Especially when suggesting that Dookus lightsaber skill might be above that of his master.

I don't like watching the Clone Wars and seeing Kit Fisto's recently promoted former Padawan with a judgment problem tooling two MagnaGuards. It dropped how awesome Anakin and Obi-Wan were at doing it a few notches.

Lucien
I don't like watching the Clone Wars and seeing Kit Fisto's recently promoted former Padawan with a judgment problem tooling two MagnaGuards. It dropped how awesome Anakin and Obi-Wan were at doing it a few notches.

Better Vehb doing it than Ahoska.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Because "all out scenario" and "actual combat" usually means "force battle" in the realm of Star Wars...? It's actually very hard to "surprise" another force user with a force attack in direct confrontation. And even in the instances in which a far more powerful force user attacks an opponent, this doesn't automatically lead to instant victory (see AotC Dooku using force lightning against Kenobi).

Since Sidious offensive force department, canonically as of RotS, is pretty much limited to telekinesis (an art in which Dooku excels) and force lightning (which can be blocked with a lightsaber, as demonstrated by Obi-Wan and Mace), I find it rather odd to assume, that Sidious is going to win an "all out fight". Especially when suggesting that Dookus lightsaber skill might be above that of his master.

huh, this sounds very much like what i said several times when people were talking about nihilus and Sidious. Most likely, it's going to come down to sabers, but all i hear is"wtf, noooo! megadrain!!!!"

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't like watching the Clone Wars and seeing Kit Fisto's recently promoted former Padawan with a judgment problem tooling two MagnaGuards. It dropped how awesome Anakin and Obi-Wan were at doing it a few notches.

if we judge by the fluctuating skill of magna-guards, ahsoka tahno is the greatest jedi evah.

Originally posted by truejedi
huh, this sounds very much like what i said several times when people were talking about nihilus and Sidious. Most likely, it's going to come down to sabers, but all i hear is"wtf, noooo! megadrain!!!!"

Can you give me the source, where RotS Sidious has performed an instakill against another force user or demonstrated the ability to defend himself against an attack like that? Or are you just comparing apples to oranges?

tj
if we judge by the fluctuating skill of magna-guards, ahsoka tahno is the greatest jedi evah.

I think the reality is that MagnaGuards are sufficiently lethal, but highly mass produced bodyguards. Of course, the ones Kenobi and Anakin fought aboard the Invisible Hand and Utapau might be of superior training and programming. Grievous does refer to them as his "elite," after all.

Magna-guard are actually *trained*, so it's not unreasonable for their skill to vary from guard to guard. With even the weakest being fairly formidable, but some better than other.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Can you give me the source, where RotS Sidious has performed an instakill against another force user or demonstrated the ability to defend himself against an attack like that? Or are you just comparing apples to oranges?

how is that apples to oranges? Where has dooku shown an ability to defend himself against force-lightning of sidious's ilk?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Vaapad isn't some sort of mysterious anti-Dark-Sider lightsaber ability and it also doesn't work extremely well against Dark Siders. It just enables Mace Windu to use all of his very own dark feelings to boost his own ability in terms of lightsaber combat. I think that, for any other kind of interpretation, you have to take certain quotes out of context in a very liberal fashion.

I know we're moving back here, but if that were the case, wouldn't ANY form allow the user to do likewise? I mean hell, one could use Shii-Cho or Niman in the same manner based on that philosophy, right? Are you not removing a key metaphysical aspect from Vaapad - one that makes it so much different... and deadlier than the other styles?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since Sidious offensive force department, canonically as of RotS, is pretty much limited to telekinesis (an art in which Dooku excels) and force lightning (which can be blocked with a lightsaber, as demonstrated by Obi-Wan and Mace), I find it rather odd to assume, that Sidious is going to win an "all out fight". Especially when suggesting that Dookus lightsaber skill might be above that of his master.

Mace's defense against Sidious his Force Lightning wasn't flawless... All in all I wouldn't say that using a lightsaber to stop Sidious' Force Lightning is going to be as easy as you make it sound.

instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me"

Then Sidious stopped.

"I... can't. I give up. I... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease "

Sidious obviously faked being too weak for Anakin, as later he would still have enough power left and even though Mace stopped the Lightning he was badly damaged.

Palpatine's lightning is potent enough to blast Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand and Mace looked like he was struggling against a hurricane, despite being a man of prodigious strength and having the advantages of leverage and the superconducting loop of Vaapad.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm slowly getting tired of correcting the severe problems with reading comprehension, that most people here seem to suffer from:

"Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it" - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Vaapad just enabled him to reach an impasse with Sidious that could have lasted forever, if it weren't for his Shatterpoint ability, making the ability the deciding factor in the fight. And he found multiple shatterpoints, just identifying the largets one first. He still used the Shatterpoint ability to defeat Sidious. You're adding your own opinion to that scene. Mace may have noticed that there were multiple Shatterpoints in Palpatine, but per the novelization, the only one he followed was the "largest fracture" (ie. Anakin.) No reference was made to him using any other Shatterpoints.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Your conclusions don't make sense.
If we can trust Dooku and several other sources, Dooku was at least equal or superior to Mace in terms of lightsaber combat, which includes Windu's Shatterpoint ability. From what we see in the various sources, Dooku's force mastery is also either on par or superior to that of Mace Windu (especially dark side abilities - of course - and telekinesis).

So how can you be "pretty sure" that Dooku would lose to Sidious in an all out fight? I'm rather certain he would lose a force contest against his own master, however, his force mastery (especially his defensive abilites demonstrated by the ability to redirect Sith lightning) should be suffice to survive a - probable - initial force attack by his master, to close distance and defeat him in lightsaber combat. I can be "pretty sure" that Mace would best Dooku, because of his battle with Palpatine. Meaning: if Mace could no less than stalemate an opponent who was superior to Dooku (ie. Palpatine), then why would I believe that Dooku himself would fare nearly as well as his master did?

Where statements pertaining to Dooku being equal to Mace are concerned: keep in mind that those statements were made prior to Mace's battle against Palpatine. And before that battle, he had never fully embraced Vaapad - so obviously no other Jedi/Sith had seen what Vaapad was capable of when it's wielder used it to its max (while remaining in control, of course.) That was a one time/last time deal.

Originally posted by truejedi
how is that apples to oranges? Where has dooku shown an ability to defend himself against force-lightning of sidious's ilk?

He has demonstrated the ability to deflect force lightning (his own). Lesser force users have demonstrated the ability to deflect force lightning (Obi-Wan). Apparently equal level (or lesser) force users have demonstrated the ability to defend themselves against Sidious lightning (Mace Windu). Out of these facts one can, reasonably, conclude, that Dooku has a good chance of being capable of defending himself against Sidious force lightning.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I know we're moving back here, but if that were the case, wouldn't ANY form allow the user to do likewise? I mean hell, one could use Shii-Cho or Niman in the same manner based on that philosophy, right? Are you not removing a key metaphysical aspect from Vaapad - one that makes it so much different... and deadlier than the other styles?

Since the term Vaapad does refer to both, the philosophy and the combat style, I don't see how I'm "taking away" anything. I think one could apply the philosophy while using other combat movements. Yet the other styles usually have their own philosophy linked to it, which might not fit the purpose.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're adding your own opinion to that scene. Mace may have noticed that there were multiple Shatterpoints in Palpatine, but per the novelization, the only one he followed was the "largest fracture" (ie. Anakin.) No reference was made to him using any other Shatterpoints.

Per novelization, his Vaapad wasn't enough to defeat Sidious. Then he uses his Shatterpoint ability. Then Sidious is defeated. Is any other ability mentioned? Because if it wasn't Vaapad and also not the Shatterpoint ability, what do you think enabled him to win?



Can you stop arguing in circles please. Unless you present proof, that Sidious is the superior lightsaber praciticioneer in comparison to Dooku (with all evidence pointing in the opposite direction), you don't have a point at all.



Who says that Mace has never fully embraced Vaapad before? His "limitation" in that department where gone ever since the events in the novel "Shatterpoint", which is even outright stated in the text. It was on Haruun Kal where he learned to embrace his inner darkness. So he was capable of using its max throughout most of the Clone Wars and not just for his fight against Sidious.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He has demonstrated the ability to deflect force lightning (his own). Lesser force users have demonstrated the ability to deflect force lightning (Obi-Wan). Apparently equal level (or lesser) force users have demonstrated the ability to defend themselves against Sidious lightning (Mace Windu). Out of these facts one can, reasonably, conclude, that Dooku has a good chance of being capable of defending himself against Sidious force lightning.


I just want to point out that Dooku disposed of 3 nightsisters simultaneously (including Ventress a known jedi slayer) with his Force Lightning. And they were all armed with lightsabers but clearly could not defend themselves against it.

He also kept Savage Opress at bay with his FL while fighting off Ventress. Savage actually beat Dooku in Lightsaber combat at one point, and yet Dooku still overpowered him with his FL.

He also knocked out AOTC Anakin with his FL.(I know he rushed in like a dumbass, but still..) He knocked out Sora Bulq with his FL in a comic. Sidious disarmed Yoda with his FL, and had Mace screaming and shaking, and thats all while he was feigning his weakness.

So I really dnt think one instance where Obi-Wan deflected a one handed shot by Dooku means that anyone can at any time defend themselves against Force Lightning from anyone. I think its obvious after seeing the ROTS fight that Dooku did not go all out agaisnt Obi-Wan with the Force in AOTC.

And in this fight in particular (Mace vs Dooku) FL is not only a very powerful tool at Dooku's disposal (particularly as shown lately in the Clone Wars), but the one weapon he has that Mace does not, so I really dnt think your doing Dooku any favours by saying its going to be a useless weapon thats easily defended against by anyone at anytime.

I've never said it would be easy to block force lightning. I merely noticed that I think it is possible .

Originally posted by Borbarad
I've never said it would be easy to block force lightning. I merely noticed that I think it is possible .

It is only barely possible for Mace, if not at all in the long run, to block Sidious' FL.

IMO, from the movie characters, only Yoda could do it.

And Mace had Vaapad on his side to help him with that. And wasn't 60.

BTW, no I can't argue this in depth, I have coursework.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Per novelization, his Vaapad wasn't enough to defeat Sidious. Then he uses his Shatterpoint ability. Then Sidious is defeated. Is any other ability mentioned? Because if it wasn't Vaapad and also not the Shatterpoint ability, what do you think enabled him to win? And per the novelization, the only Shatterpoint Mace used/followed was the "largest fracture", which was Anakin. Nothing else pertaining to Shatterpoint manipulation was referenced. So unless you think that Mace noticing Anakin is what enabled him to win, then we must assume that Shatterpoint had nothing to do with him prevailing.

Here's how it ended:

" could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half. One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion."

Mace won by turning Palpatine's fear into a weapon, along with utilizing battlefield manipulation.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Can you stop arguing in circles please. Unless you present proof, that Sidious is the superior lightsaber praciticioneer in comparison to Dooku (with all evidence pointing in the opposite direction), you don't have a point at all. You misunderstand. Where a pure duel is concerned, Dooku could very well be superior to Palpatine (though it's arguable either way.) I am talking solely about an all-out battle.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Who says that Mace has never fully embraced Vaapad before? His "limitation" in that department where gone ever since the events in the novel "Shatterpoint", which is even outright stated in the text. It was on Haruun Kal where he learned to embrace his inner darkness. So he was capable of using its max throughout most of the Clone Wars and not just for his fight against Sidious. I can't say that I can recall another instance where Mace engulfed himself in Vaapad like he did against Palpatine:

"This was Vaapad's ultimate test Mace Windu was cutting loose. Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared."

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
It is only barely possible for Mace, if not at all in the long run, to block Sidious' FL.

According to the novel.

In the higher canon of the movie, he does force his blade down towards Sidious instead having it moving towards his face. Add the fact that the commentary in that scene says, Sidious is trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. So full power Sith Lightning from Sidious got overpowered by Windu.



Since we've seen Mace doing it, this statement is kind of odd.

@Galen007
Originally posted by Galan007
And per the novelization, the only Shatterpoint Mace used/followed was the "largest fracture", which was Anakin. Nothing else pertaining to Shatterpoint manipulation was referenced. So unless you think that Mace noticing Anakin is what enabled him to win, then we must assume that Shatterpoint had nothing to do with him prevailing.

Oh.My.God.
Didn't you forget a little detail?

"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Emphasis mine. How about reading a source completely instead of taken the things serving your argument out of context? Mace didn't sense (and utilize) the fear of Sidious. He sensed and utilized the fear of the only other person being present besides himself and the Sith Lord: Anakin. And what was leading him there? His Shatterpoint ability. You were saying?



And you're understanding pretty much nothing. How would an all out scenario work, according to your opinion? Do you think that Dooku would try to engage Sidious in a force contest? I don't think so. He would try to close the gap between them, with Sidious either allowing it or trying to stop Dooku using the force. And at that point in time, one might ask how do you think he would overcome Dooku exactly, when he was unable to overcome Mace?



Since you're already incapable of recalling passages of text right below the passages of text you're quoting here, I can't say that does surprise me. We don't know if he utilized Vaapad in a similar fashion before, because most Clone War sources were released after the RotS novel. But why shall we assume that he held back in every fight he got in during the Clone Wars? That doesn't make any sense.

Ummm... Actually Lucas said Palpatine pretended to be weak and lose his powers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ummm... Actually Lucas said Palpatine pretended to be weak and lose his powers.

Yeah. Right after the statement, where he mentions that Mace overpowered him and Sidious couldn't kill Mace with the force lightning. Which Sidious had to drop, because - also mentioned in the commentary - he was just frying himself. Your point? That Sidious had enough energy left to go on with electrocuting his own ass?

Originally posted by Borbarad

In the higher canon of the movie, he does force his blade down towards Sidious instead having it moving towards his face.

Yeah but he was screaming and shaking and struggling to hold on to his weapon.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Add the fact that the commentary in that scene says, Sidious is trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. So full power Sith Lightning from Sidious got overpowered by Windu.


Just listened to the commentary again, and it wasnt Lucas who said that, about trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. And it was said after Lucas already stated that Sidious was pretending to be weak and pretending to lose his power.

Now Mace was obviously struggling and exerting himself too. But all we know is that Mace was able to overpower Sidious's Lightning while he was pretending to be weak. Sidious only stopped firing while he was pretending to lose his power.

So that isn't exactly strong evidence that Mace can overpower Sidious's FL, something even Yoda failed to do.


FYI After watching the Savage Opress trilogy I actually think Dooku has a decent chance against Mace BECAUSE of how effectively he can Utilize his FL mid Saber Fight.

On Dooku vs Sidious, didn't Lucas say that you had to be Yoda or Mace to take on Sids?

N.
On Dooku vs Sidious, didn't Lucas say that you had to be Yoda or Mace to take on Sids?

Yes. Or, eventually, Anakin.

Originally posted by Borbarad
According to the novel.

In the higher canon of the movie, he does force his blade down towards Sidious instead having it moving towards his face. .

The movie doesn't contradict Mace his struggle actually, if you look at the following 2:32 (which I have specially picked out for you) we can see that Mace is struggling quite a bit :

EY9ghYr0PmY&



Didn't Lucas mean that Mace overpowered him in the lightsaber duel?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but he was screaming and shaking and struggling to hold on to his weapon.

He did still hold on his weapon and, unlike in any kind of presumed scenariou, he was basically already in infight range with Sidious, when the Sith Lord used the skill.





When Lucas talks about "faking weakness" he talks about what happens after the initial force lightning used, where Sidious says he's to weak to continue. That's obvious. Before that, he's trying to kill Mace with all he can and fails.

So Mace does withstand Sidious force lightning.



He could do the same against Sidious...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Just listened to the commentary again, and it wasnt Lucas who said that, about trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. And it was said after Lucas already stated that Sidious was pretending to be weak and pretending to lose his power.


Alright, I clicked the "To view this post click " button and after reading this I may actually put you of my ignore list.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right after the statement, where he mentions that Mace overpowered him ]

In the Saber duel.. A duel that might never have even happened if Mace didnt begin the fight with 3 other Jedis. Sidious MIGHT have been able to just use the Force and not let Mace get close to him, kind of like Dooku kept doing to Savage while duelling Ventress.

Originally posted by Borbarad
and Sidious couldn't kill Mace with the force lightning.

Thats never said in the commentary. The novel makes it very clear his FL was seriously deadly to Mace. Mace didnt think he could defeat him without Anakin.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which Sidious had to drop, because - also mentioned in the commentary - he was just frying himself.

Again thats never said. But we are told by Lucas himself that he's pretending to lose his power. If he's pretending he cant carry on anymorw, he might want to stop shooting!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Your point? That Sidious had enough energy left to go on with electrocuting his own ass?

Well according to the novel he Sidious was feeding off the pain fuelling his power.

Seriously your saying Vapaad doesnt give an advantage against Darksiders, and on top of that your saying Mace Overpowered Sidious not only in the Saber fight but also against his Force powers..

Now tell me if Im missing something here but that would actually make Mace MORE Powerful than the Emporer. It would also make him more Powerful than Yoda, as Yoda went all out to try and defeat the Emporer but couldn't do it in a much longer fight than Mace vs Sidious.

And it would certainly make Mace more powerful than Dooku who could not overpower Yoda in the Force or in Sabers, even on a planet steeped in the Dark side.

Originally posted by Borbarad

When Lucas talks about "faking weakness" he talks about what happens after the initial force lightning used, where Sidious says he's to weak to continue. That's obvious. Before that, he's trying to kill Mace with all he can and fails.

So Mace does withstand Sidious force lightning.



Ok I get this.. But Mace was also seriously struggling to hold off that initial FL burst. He even let go with one hand-EDIT(just checked this didn't happen till later).. And since Sidious began faking being weak after that theres no real evidence Mace could have continually fended off that force lightning.

Id put my money on the POOOWAHHHHH!! UNLIMITED POOOOWAHHHH!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh.My.God.
Didn't you forget a little detail?

"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Emphasis mine. How about reading a source completely instead of taken the things serving your argument out of context? Mace didn't sense (and utilize) the fear of Sidious. He sensed and utilized the fear of the only other person being present besides himself and the Sith Lord: Anakin. And what was leading him there? His Shatterpoint ability. You were saying? Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that Mace was subconsciously tapping Anakin's fear via his Shatterpoint ability? I was under the impression that utilizing Shatterpoint was something Mace had to specifically concentrate on - it didn't just happen without him knowing. That said, I find it odd that he had no idea what Palaptine was talking about when he said that the fear Mace felt wasn't his own... Especially when you consider that angling the battle in the way he did (based on the Shadow's own fear) is why Mace won.

Are you saying that Anakin was responsible for that? How would Mace not know that he was utilizing Anakin's fear, and not Palpatine's? Just seems like a stretch, imo. Additionally, is it not possible that the master of the dark side was, you know, lying? I mean, he did lie about being powerless moments later (per GL)... Just saying.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And you're understanding pretty much nothing. How would an all out scenario work, according to your opinion? Do you think that Dooku would try to engage Sidious in a force contest? I don't think so. He would try to close the gap between them, with Sidious either allowing it or trying to stop Dooku using the force. And at that point in time, one might ask how do you think he would overcome Dooku exactly, when he was unable to overcome Mace? If throwing around some smug remarks makes you feel like you're accomplishing more, then go for it.

Palaptine is more powerful than Dooku. He uses that power when he duels (hence the blur-esque speed he displayed vs. Mace.) So while Dooku might be the better duelist from a technical standpoint, the power differential between himself and Palpatine is why, imo, he would lose an all-out battle.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since you're already incapable of recalling passages of text right below the passages of text you're quoting here, I can't say that does surprise me. We don't know if he utilized Vaapad in a similar fashion before, because most Clone War sources were released after the RotS novel.

But why shall we assume that he held back in every fight he got in during the Clone Wars? That doesn't make any sense. Ah, more attempts at condescension. Lets try to keep things civil, shall we? Anywho, I'll take this statement as you not having proof that Mace had fully embraced Vaapad, before battling Palpatine. There's no reason to think he had - that battle was Vaapad's "ultimate test", after all.

Why would we assume he never fully embraced Vaapad before fighting Palpatine? Perhaps because he had never battled such a powerful opponent for such an extended length of time?

Originally posted by Galan007
If throwing around some smug remarks makes you feel like you're accomplishing more, then go for it. No, don't! Don't egg him on, it'll only make him more powAHfull!

Sidious could also be lying... I mean, Mace just told him he was going to lose because of his own fear.

It wouldn't be a huge stretch for Sidious to come back with an a big "nuh-uh! It's anakin, not me!"

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right after the statement, where he mentions that Mace overpowered him and Sidious couldn't kill Mace with the force lightning. Which Sidious had to drop, because - also mentioned in the commentary - he was just frying himself. Your point? That Sidious had enough energy left to go on with electrocuting his own ass?

The way Lucas worded that does mean a lot. Lucas said he always had the part in there where Mace overpowered Palpatine. And he did overpower him. Then Lucas goes on to mention that Palpatine "pretending to become weak and lose his powers" was something he decided to add in there later, so that changed a lot about the scene. The difference now is that Palpatine allowed Mace to overpower him. It's pretty obvious that Palpatine did not plan on killing Windu, and wanted Anakin to think he was at risk of being killed which is why before the fight he called out to Anakin through the force saying: "If the jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost". He always wanted Anakin to believe he was at risk of being killed; he wanted Anakin to intervene. This could be the reason he took out B team and then turned his attention to Windu. If they were as even as you say, then Windu should have been able to kill him while Palpatine's attention was on B team. Palpatine should have been very vulnerable to attack at that time. Instead he clearly holds the upperhand during this part of the duel, forcing Windu all the way back into his office.

There is also the arguement that Windu was unable to kill Palpatine while Palpatine's attention was on B team because he was not sunk all the way in vapaad yet. If that is the case, then there you have it, vapaad is what made them equals, and that is something Dooku does not have access to, nor does he have access to a B team. So stop comparing Dooku to Windu. Sounds like you're the one comparing apples to oranges. Stop using Windu's fight with Palpatine as a way to make Dooku Windu's equal, 'cause there not, especially when Mace has Vapaad.

Also, when someone exerts himself, they naturally become weak from using up everything they have in them, so pretending to be weak would pretty much be impossible.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, don't! Don't egg him on, it'll only make him more powAHfull! What.Have.I.Done!!!

Originally posted by truejedi
Sidious could also be lying... I mean, Mace just told him he was going to lose because of his own fear.

It wouldn't be a huge stretch for Sidious to come back with an a big "nuh-uh! It's anakin, not me!" It seems more logical to assume Palpatine was lying (it wouldn't be the first time), as opposed to thinking that Mace was tapping Anakin's fear via Shatterpoint... Without even knowing he was doing so.

In my opinion.

"And Palpatine was not afraid.
Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all." -- ROTS, p 333.

Its pretty clear that Sidious was trying to get Anakin to come and rescue him and was damn sure that he would.

Not sure if that means that he lost on purpose though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its pretty clear that Sidious was trying to get Anakin to come and rescue him.

Not sure if that meant that he lost on purpose though.

He didn't lose the lightsaber fight on purpose, but a lot of evidence suggests that Palpatine was able to continue his assault on Mace and thus killing him.

If he didn't lose on purpose, then why was he trying to get Anakin to come rescue him? Unless he knew he'd lose I guess?

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he didn't lose on purpose, then why was he trying to get Anakin to come rescue him? Unless he knew he'd lose I guess? Wanting to cover his ass? Wanting to present an impossible situation for Anakin?

Since I can't edit this in my above post (damn 15 minute rule), this is the entire scene that Borbarad posted:

"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." "Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine? Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him."

As made apparent by the underlined: Mace didn't know what the hell Palpatine was talking about when he mentioned that the fear wasn't his own. I find it hard to believe that a veteran Jedi like Mace wouldn't know exactly whose fear he was harnessing.... And with his own abilities, no less.

Originally posted by Galan007
Since I can't edit this in my above post (damn 15 minute rule), this is the entire scene that Borbarad posted:

"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose:
defeated by your own fear." "Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine? Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him."

As made apparent by the underlined: Mace didn't know what the hell Palpatine was talking about when he mentioned that the fear wasn't his own. I find it hard to believe that a veteran Jedi like Mace wouldn't know exactly whose fear he was harnessing.... And with his own abilities, no less.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
"And Palpatine was not afraid.
Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all." -- ROTS, p 333. Which was after Mace had already utilized Palpatine's fear to disarm/overpower him.

The lines you posted happened right before Anakin intervened (ie. he'd already jumped across the room to Mace/Palpatine's location.) Palpatine really didn't have a reason to be afraid then - he could likely sense that Anakin was about to strike.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its pretty clear that Sidious was trying to get Anakin to come and rescue him and was damn sure that he would.

Not sure if that means that he lost on purpose though.

Not saying he lost his duel on purpose. I believe vapaad made Windu Palpatine's equal as far as a lightsaber duel. The novel makes this clear, so there is no arguing with that. I just don't believe Palpatine was in any real danger after the fight. I also do not believe Palpatine would have been in any real danger if Windu did not have B team + the time to sink into vapaad. So by Borbarad saying Palpatine would not do any better with Dooku than he did with Windu is wrong. Dooku does not have vapaad or a B team in a one on one match with Sidious.

Originally posted by Galan007
Which was after Mace had already utilized Palpatine's fear to disarm/overpower him.

The lines you posted happened just before Anakin intervened. Palpatine really didn't have a reason to be afraid then - he could likely sense that Anakin was about to strike.

Right. I'm just saying that he wasn't afraid the entire time, which means that when he says "you think the fear you feel is mine?!" it might be legit.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Right. I'm just saying that he wasn't afraid the entire time, which means that when he says "you think the fear you feel is mine?!" it might be legit. He wasn't afraid when Anakin was standing by his side. There's no reason to believe he wasn't afraid beforehand. That is, after all, the main reason Mace was able to overpower him - he sensed that the Shadow's fear of the battle location would cause it to hesitate, and divert some of its force powers to other, more defensive, areas.

But if the fear wasn't Palpatine's, it would mean that Mace was completely unaware that he was really drawing on Anakin's fear. And it is very hard to believe that Mace was using Shatterpoint to tap Anakin's fear, without knowing he was doing so.

then again, we see anakin enter the room in the movie, while all that above dialogue supposedly happens while he is in the room.... therefore that part of the novel is probably non-canon anyway...

^ Such a simple but true fact that we all seemed to completely forget about.

In the film, Anakin didn't even enter the chamber until after Mace had already disarmed/overpowered Palpatine. Therefore Mace couldn't have used Anakin as a weapon to beat Palps.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he didn't lose on purpose, then why was he trying to get Anakin to come rescue him? Unless he knew he'd lose I guess?

Well there was still the small matter of turning Anakin to the Darkside..

Oh and just having a secure back up in case the second most powerful jedi in the galaxy was able to kill/capture him.

Originally posted by Galan007
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that Mace was subconsciously tapping Anakin's fear via his Shatterpoint ability? I was under the impression that utilizing Shatterpoint was something Mace had to specifically concentrate on - it didn't just happen without him knowing. That said, I find it odd that he had no idea what Palaptine was talking about when he said that the fear Mace felt wasn't his own... Especially when you consider that angling the battle in the way he did (based on the Shadow's own fear) is why Mace won.

Are you saying that Anakin was responsible for that? How would Mace not know that he was utilizing Anakin's fear, and not Palpatine's? Just seems like a stretch, imo. Additionally, is it not possible that the master of the dark side was, you know, lying? I mean, he did lie about being powerless moments later (per GL)... Just saying.


He was, obviously, utilizing somebodies fear, and it was neither that of Sidious nor his own. I don't see many options left besides Anakin, since he was the only other person in the room. And how can we exactly understand the workings of a metaphysical power? Obviously, the "Shatterpoints" connected beings and even events (see the corresponding novel). Maybe Anakin feared that Sidious could die in the duel, resulting (according to Anakin's visions and thoughts) in the death of Padme. Maybe Mace just felt that fear based connection between the two individuals. I don't know.

The novel leaves no other option for Mace winning than the Shatterpoint ability, though. And that was the initial point.



Ipsedixitism doesn't win arguments. I can do that too: "Dooku does crush Sidious in a lightsaber fight." Did I win now?



And again, you keep arguing in circles. You presume that the power difference between the two is great enough to not only make up Dooku's advantage in lightsaber skill, but topple it. Where is the proof? We've never seen Dooku and Sidious testing their powers against eachother and we've also not seen them using their powers against other characters under compareable circumstances.



You mean, like you have no proof that it was? Great. At least I'm not commiting a logical fallacy here, which an argumentum ex silencio still is.



What does that have to do with the question how he utilized his Vaapad before? You're assuming that he essentially held back during almost the entirety of the Clone Wars, which still doesn't make sense.


@Sidiousfanboy66
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The way Lucas worded that does mean a lot.


But of course. Let us - according to the laws of this forum - ignore any kind of context. Lucas was doing a live commentary to his movie, so this is an ad-lib statement. I don't think that he thought about it in detail, especially not with the question in mind, how it could affect a possible discussion of SW fans regarding the outcome of the fight. So I don't think his wording "means a lot"...



And when and why did Sidious "fake weakness"? After his initial attempt to kill Mace with force lightning fails. John Knoll tells us as much, and Lucas - sitting right next to him - doesn't see any reason to contradict the guy. So, obviously, Lucas essentially agreed with Sidious not being able to overpower Mace with force lightning in that situation.



Wow.
Did you even watch the movie?

1)
Why would Sidious have put his own life at risk, when he could simply have killed Mace? Hell. Why would he even have attempted to use his lightning, proclaiming that Mace has lost? He could have started to play the victim right after being disarmed. He didn't. What did change from his outright defiance, proclaiming that Mace has lost, to the point where he asked Anakin for help? He obviously realized that, on his own, he was unable to overcome Windu.

This is confirmed by the additional commentary on the DVD, where John Knoll - sitting right next to Lucas - proclaims that Sidious was pretty much just electrocuting himself and exerting himself in order to do so. Stop ignoring that.

2)
You accessment of the lightsaber fight is completely hilarious. You do realize, that Mace doesn't even get involved in the fight until the point where two of his fellow Jedi are already dead. He likewhise couldn't cut Sidious down while the Sith Lord was "dealing with the B team", because said B team was standing in the way in the guise of Kit Fisto.

Sidious simple benefited from the fact, that he had more targets to aim at, while Windu had to watch out for not hitting one of his comrades until the point, where all of them were dead, which - what a coincidence - is exactly the point in time when he starts to dominate Sidious. And nice that you're trying to making a case for Sidious throwing the lightsaber fight, too. That, besides of revealing that you have precisely no idea about swordfighting, also shows your bias in favor for Sidious. Not that your username alone isn't enough. The fanboy corner is over there, right next to Gideon.



Yeah. Please. Let us ignore the fact that Windu's "teammates" did limited Mace, because he had to watch out for them, and instantly dominated Sidious when they were gone. Just coincidence. Let's instead assume that Sidious, who didn't touch a lightsaber for about a decade, is in peak physical condition and equiped with his usual amount of lightsaber ability, especially compared to two frontline warriors in peak physical condition. That totally makes sense.

And of course it's me who compares Dooku to Windu, not almost every single source mentioning the two. Guess what. I didn't write them. I did neither come up with Yoda labeling Dooku the most powerful student of the temple, neither did I come up with all those other hints to the relative standing in skill between Dooku and Mace. So please blame the authors for the idea, that Dooku is equal or superior to Mace being present in nigh every Clone War novel. An idea, that you attempting to argue because of your personal interpretation of a fight between two other individuals. That, much like the rest of your fanboy rubbish, doesn't make sense at all.



Go argue with John Knoll and George Lucas. And I absolutely love how you seem to assume that Lucas carefully worded his statement in the commentary, where you seem to imply that John Knoll is just an idiot talking some bullshit about the movie right after that. Cherrypicking much? Come back when you've learned to make some argument not entirely based on your bias for your favourite character - if you're even capable of doing something like that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He was, obviously, utilizing somebodies fear, and it was neither that of Sidious nor his own. I don't see many options left besides Anakin, since he was the only other person in the room. And how can we exactly understand the workings of a metaphysical power? Obviously, the "Shatterpoints" connected beings and even events (see the corresponding novel). Maybe Anakin feared that Sidious could die in the duel, resulting (according to Anakin's visions and thoughts) in the death of Padme. Maybe Mace just felt that fear based connection between the two individuals. I don't know.

The novel leaves no other option for Mace winning than the Shatterpoint ability, though. And that was the initial point. As TJ pointed out, Anakin didn't even enter the chamber until after Mace had already disarmed and overpowered Palpatine. Therefore, the part in the novel in which you believe that Mace unknowingly tapped Anakin's fear, is non-canon anyway. The only canonical option left is that Mace was using Palpatine's emotions/energies to his advantage.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ipsedixitism doesn't win arguments. I can do that too: "Dooku does crush Sidious in a lightsaber fight." Did I win now? ...Except that there is more evidence pointing to Palpatine being superior to Dooku in the force department, then the other way around. So your analogy really doesn't apply.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And again, you keep arguing in circles. You presume that the power difference between the two is great enough to not only make up Dooku's advantage in lightsaber skill, but topple it. Where is the proof? We've never seen Dooku and Sidious testing their powers against eachother and we've also not seen them using their powers against other characters under compareable circumstances. ...Hence me stating "imo" (in my opinion.)

It is my opinion that Palpatine is quite a bit more powerful than Dooku where the force is concerned. It is also my opinion that if Dooku were the better duelist, it wouldn't be by a very large margin. It is also my opinion that because the skill-gap between them isn't overly significant, Palpatine's power advantage would easily overcome that gap.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What does that have to do with the question how he utilized his Vaapad before? You're assuming that he essentially held back during almost the entirety of the Clone Wars, which still doesn't make sense. No, I am making the logical assumption that because Mace had never faced an opponent anywhere near Palpatine's level, there would have been no reason for him to utilize Vaapad in the same manner he did vs. Palpatine.

Imo, these lines are indicative of such:

"This was Vaapad's ultimate test Mace Windu was cutting loose. Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared."

I have never seen another instance in which Mace utilized Vaapad in such an extreme manner. Have you?

Originally posted by Borbarad


John Knoll tells us as much, and Lucas - sitting right next to him - doesn't see any reason to contradict the guy. So, obviously, Lucas essentially agreed with Sidious not being able to overpower Mace with force lightning in that situation.

Hmm.. Interesting.. But I wuldn't use that as evidence that Lucas completely agrees with him there.. After all its a commentary and everyone gets their say of what they think is happening.. It's not a debate.

Also Sidious stopped shooting. Just because Sidious's initial shot did not destroy the second most powerful jedi in the galaxy(from a position of lying on his ass), doesn't mean he culdn't do it if he continued to shoot.. And we know he still had power to shoot from the "Unlimited Pooowaahhh" scene.

Im sure if Sidious kept a bit of distance and went all out with the Force against Mace like he did against Yoda (using TK, FL, everything) Sidious would overpower him.

The more powerful force user usually wins from what Iv seen:

1) Most/All Starkiller's fights..
2) Savage Opress physically Overpowered Dooku in a Saber fight, but then Dooku just Overpowered him with the Force (before Savage got his Uber Force Boost that is)..
3) Obi-Wan and Anakin beat Ventress in Sabers, but then she just started Force choking both of them LOL..
4) Three nightsisters beating Dooku in a Saber fight, then he takes them all out with the Force! That was Awsome btw!
5) And of course the ultimate clash of the titans Yoda vs. Sidious was decided by the Force battle not the Saber one..


Originally posted by Borbarad

And of course it's me who compares Dooku to Windu, not almost every single source mentioning the two. Guess what. I didn't write them. I did neither come up with Yoda labeling Dooku the most powerful student of the temple, neither did I come up with all those other hints to the relative standing in skill between Dooku and Mace. So please blame the authors for the idea, that Dooku is equal or superior to Mace being present in nigh every Clone War novel.



I know the quote from DR, referring to Dooku's bladework that only Mace would be his equal on neutral ground.. Are there other quotes from other Clone War novels? You got them?

George agrees with a source because he didn't bother to contradict it? I guess this validates the ROTS novelization's take on events after all.

Originally posted by Borbarad
@Sidiousfanboy66

Good one lol


Originally posted by Borbarad
of course. Let us - according to the laws of this forum - ignore any kind of context. Lucas was doing a live commentary to his movie, so this is an ad-lib statement. I don't think that he thought about it in detail, especially not with the question in mind, how it could affect a possible discussion of SW fans regarding the outcome of the fight. So I don't think his wording "means a lot"...

Oh, my Geez!

I did not say it was an ad-lib statement or that he said it in regards to how it might affect the discussion of a SW vs forum. He said it because that is simply what he did with the scene. Palpatine pretending weakness was not originally in the script I guess. However, the part with Windu "overpowering" Palpatine with his own lightning was always in the scene. So when Lucas decided change it to where Palpatine was only pretending to be weak, it changed a lot about how the scene was originally intended. You see what I'm saying.

Then again, I forget if the "overpowering" was refering to the lightning sequence or the lightsaber duel. If it refers to the duel then I never argued that Windu did not overcome him in a duel, or would not be able to. But I do not believe Palpatine planned on outright killing Windu either, because of the fact that Palpatine called out to Anakin for help before the fight even started. And I don't believe he called out to Anakin for help was because he actually believed he was going to be killed either.

Originally posted by Borbarad
fails. John Knoll tells us as much, and Lucas - sitting right next to him - doesn't see any reason to contradict the guy. So, obviously, Lucas essentially agreed with Sidious not being able to overpower Mace with force lightning in that situation.

Yeah I can totally see Lucas nudging Knoll on the arm saying "Hey you just contradicted what I just said. You're ruining it for Palpatine, son!"

Originally posted by Borbarad


You better bet your bottom dollar I did, and more than once, since I am a "Sidious fanboy" and all.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Mace has lost? He could have started to play the victim right after being disarmed. He didn't. What did change from his outright defiance, proclaiming that Mace has lost, to the point where he asked Anakin for help? He obviously realized that, on his own, he was unable to overcome Windu.

This is confirmed by the additional commentary on the DVD, where John Knoll - sitting right next to Lucas - proclaims that Sidious was pretty much just electrocuting himself and exerting himself in order to do so. Stop ignoring that.

Now I'm going to ask you: did you watch the movie? Palpatine was playing the victim the minute Anakin entered the room. Does "Anakin, I was right. The Jedi are trying to take over!" ring a bell to you? Of course this was not helping since Windu only threatened to arrest him at that time, not kill him. So then Palpatine decides to force the situation by attacking Mace with lightning. After about 5 seconds Palpatine starts acting weak (doesn't sound like alot of exerting).

Originally posted by Borbarad


Yes, which proves Sidious' superior speed, does it not? Sidious was able to kill two of Windu's team mates before Windu had an opportunity to do anything about it. When Sidious lunges himself at the two jedi, Kit was on the other side of Mace. He was not standing in the way. Then there is the part where he engages both Windu and Fisto at the same time countering each of their strikes(was Fisto still in the way?), and then goes on to kill Fisto and forces Windu all the way back into his office.

Originally posted by Borbarad


Sidious may have more targets to aim at but he also has his attention divided by three individuals, and also has more lightsaber strikes to counter. He has more opponents to kill while they only had one. Why do you think numbers creates a bigger advantage? Why do you think that when facing a very powerful opponent jedi usually require more help?
Why did Windu bring B team if he was only giving Sidious an advantage?

I hope you are never forced to live in a rough neighborhood. You would either not survive or be beaten severely. You don't throw yourself at a group of people just because you have more targets to aim at, and they have more people to look out for. That is just stupid talk right there.

Originally posted by Borbarad


Read above.

He did not instantly dominate Sidious after they were gone. He was being forced back right after they were killed. He only dominated Palpatine at the edge of the window, but the majority of the fight within the office they were about even. Probably because Mace was now fully submerged in vapaad, which, according to the novel, made them equals.

Originally posted by Borbarad
me who compares Dooku to Windu, not almost every single source mentioning the two. Guess what. I didn't write them. I did neither come up with Yoda labeling Dooku the most powerful student of the temple, neither did I come up with all those other hints to the relative standing in skill between Dooku and Mace. So please blame the authors for the idea, that Dooku is equal or superior to Mace being present in nigh every Clone War novel. An idea, that you attempting to argue because of your personal interpretation of a fight between two other individuals. That, much like the rest of your fanboy rubbish, doesn't make sense at all.

We were not arguing Mace vs Dooku though. You were implying that Dooku has a chance of overcoming Sidious in battle because Windu did. I'm telling you that you are wrong. Dooku does not have the advantage of vapaad or a B team on the side. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Originally posted by Borbarad
love how you seem to assume that Lucas carefully worded his statement in the commentary, where you seem to imply that John Knoll is just an idiot talking some bullshit about the movie right after that. Cherrypicking much? Come back when you've learned to make some argument not entirely based on your bias for your favourite character - if you're even capable of doing something like that.

Why would I argue with him. Hell Lucas did not even argue with him, even though he had just contradicted what Lucas had said. I guess I should just take Knoll's word over Lucas just because Lucas did not correct him.

Originally posted by Galan007
As TJ pointed out, Anakin didn't even enter the chamber until after Mace had already disarmed and overpowered Palpatine. Therefore, the part in the novel in which you believe that Mace unknowingly tapped Anakin's fear, is non-canon anyway. The only canonical option left is that Mace was using Palpatine's emotions/energies to his advantage.

Wow. This is just brilliant. Let's ignore the novel. There is neither Vaapad nor a Shatterpoint ability and Mace just outduelled Sidious and overpowered him later. Gosh. Easy victory for me.



And there is no evidence for Sidious being superior in the lightsaber department. His superior force command didn't help him much against Windu, did it?



Despite of what you are apparently thinking, this assumption is not logical, nor does it follow from the statements you've quoted. The lack of any other fight as hard as the one against Sidious doesn't mean that Windu has never exploited Vaapad as deep as on that occassion. Past Haruun Kal, he had the ability to do so and probably did.

That we don't have another en detail description of anything like that stems from the fact that the SW universe is a multi-media one, and many of Windu's fights happen outside of books (e.g. in comics, the Clone Wars TV show and so on...).