Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Setting: Geonosian Arena.

The Sith Emperor and Count on one side.

On the other, Darth Bane in his peak of power, without Orbalisks and Exar Kun at peak of power, without Amulets.

1. Force

2. Saber

3. All out

Which duo wins?

Bane and Kun would rape these two. It wouldn't even be fair.

Wawawait... who was before the cat?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Bane and Kun would rape these two. It wouldn't even be fair.

Agreed. Kun and Bane annihilate the other team by virtue of coming from an earlier generation of Force users. And as we all know, the Jedi and Sith arts merely get worse with each passing decade.







Teehehe

Without Orbalisks and Amulets team 2 can't win. With them you've actually got a fight on your hands.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Agreed. Kun and Bane annihilate the other team by virtue of coming from an earlier generation of Force users. And as we all know, the Jedi and Sith arts merely get worse with each passing decade.







Teehehe

Judging by the NJO, LotF and FotJ books, I'd have to agree full-heartedly with you.

EDIT: Well, maybe just the practioners...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Without Orbalisks and Amulets team 2 can't win. With them you've actually got a fight on your hands.

Precisely what I thought. So I wonder who would win?

I pick ROTS team here, though that would change if Kun had his amulets and Bane his orbalisks.

Indeed, with them Bane would be able to comfortably tie up His Imperial Majesty long enough for Kun to lazorspam Dooku to death and then they could double team him.

But Dooku is Kun's equal, correct?

And Bane in his latest book has enough power and skill to take on Palpy, or would I be wrong?

(Didn't read it, LoL!)

I didn't read it either.

Exar Kun vs Dooku is ambiuous without teh amulet imo.

Perhaps this is a good match, then.

I'd be interested to see what some of the other experts around here would think about it.

I can't remember enough about Kun to conclude how he'd fair against Dooku. I.... think he'd lose? Maybe? Thoughts guys?

I'm going to bed anyway, I'll sort this out in the morning.

Have a good sleep.

I'm probably going with team 2, regardless.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
I'm probably going with team 2, regardless.

To be quite honest, attempting to substantiate Exar Kun as a Sith Lord without his amulet is impossible, because's he's always wearing it. And it gives him one hell of a power boost:

http://i56.tinypic.com/2aabz94.jpg

Unfortunately, I cropped it too close, but the middle panel states that Sadow's amulet goes to him as if he were its "rightful owner", recognizing his legitimacy to its use. It multiplies his rage and power exponentially. In addition to the blasts which are incredibly destructive, it seems to enhance his already impressive natural Force talent. Throughout the comics, he's seen activating it to boost his abilities similar to Sadow. Thus it's impossible to substantiate "Kun - amulet" because no such entity exists once he becomes a Sith.

http://i52.tinypic.com/29p6lq8.jpg

Here it's stated via the omniscient narrator that both Ulic and Exar are master swordsmen, and neither can overcome the other in combat.

http://i56.tinypic.com/28mh1rq.jpg

Here Exar Kun freezes the Republican senate room, a room filled with thousands of sentients of all different types. Only the chancellor and the present Jedi are excluded, for whatever reason. Then Kun uses the chancellor as a sock puppet, suspending the sentient with one arm and forcing him to dictate for the crowd.

http://i54.tinypic.com/oazlug.jpg

Here Kun appears immune to the sever Force ability that Nomi used on Ulic with superb and apparently permanent results. He then kills the Jedi Master with a gesture.

I've avoided reposting battles against Vodo, since most of the SWVF thinks he's a complete tool with no experience or martial standing of note. In a nutshell though, Kun pretty much destroys every Jedi who stands before him once he becomes a Sith with ease.

I'd argue on his weapon proficiency and overwhelming command of the Dark Side of the Force alone that Exar Kun would be too much for RotS Sidious and Count Dooku. My Bane lore is a bit rusty, but I do recall him being prodigiously powerful with the Force as well and an incredible duelist, able to keep up with Kas'im despite the latter's change in dueling patterns.

I think when we say "No amulets", we're specifically removing his amulet "blasts".

Okay, so what's to stop Exar Kun from ragdolling Dooku or Sidious?

Um.

Force Storm? F*ck if I know--ask Gideon. I've always leaned towards the ancient Sith.

SM, with addendum by RB
Okay, so what's to stop Exar KunSidious from ragdolling Dooku or SidiousKun singlehandedly while the good Count performs fellatio on his more intelligent, more powerful, much more dangerous Master?

Pfft. Exar Kun's power can actively be powered up to, and I quote, "hundreds of thousands of times". The amulet actively channels his rage, even if the blasts aren't explicitly used, he can just juice up his Force powers.

Sidious, who spent at least thirty seconds of his professional career as a Sith flopped upside down over his own chair by a Force push, should not be a problem. Dooku is not going to be lauded as being any higher, obviously. QED.

Then Bane has sex with their corpses.

You do realize that Sidious' willing reception of said fellatio by Dooku makes your idol and favoured villain an extraordinarily disgusting old homo, right? Convince Old Ben to join and you got yourself a new Force technique: Jedi Lemon Party.

"Sith amulets are ancient relics created to focus and amplify a darksider's power -- the Dark Side Sourcebook, page 66.

"the amulets radically enhance the user's telekinetic abilities" -- DSSB, pg. 67.

"Sith amulets could focus and amplify the power of their bearers." -- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume III, page 115.

"Each amulet, which is embedded in a jewel-encrusted gauntlet worn on the forearm, is made of crystals imbued with dark Force energy that focus the user's telekinetic power, allowing the wearer to unleash powerful attacks." -- Jedi Academy Training Manual, page 68.

edit: Sidious and Dooku were each man enough not to need such trinkets to be considered top tier. Without his amulets, good luck proving Kun's anything more than an amusing distraction for either one.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You do realize that Sidious' willing reception of said fellatio by Dooku makes your idol and favoured villain an extraordinarily disgusting old homo, right? Convince Old Ben to join and you got yourself a new Force technique: Jedi Lemon Party.

The Emperor is beyond sexual orientation. The good Count performing fellatio would please him, as a sign of Dooku's accepted inferiority.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
"Sith amulets are ancient relics created to focus and amplify a darksider's power -- the Dark Side Sourcebook, page 66.

"the amulets radically enhance the user's telekinetic abilities" -- DSSB, pg. 67.

"Sith amulets could focus and amplify the power of their bearers." -- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume III, page 115.

"Each amulet, which is embedded in a jewel-encrusted gauntlet worn on the forearm, is made of crystals imbued with dark Force energy that focus the user's telekinetic power, allowing the wearer to unleash powerful attacks." -- Jedi Academy Training Manual, page 68.

edit: Sidious and Dooku were each man enough not to need such trinkets to be considered top tier. Without his amulets, good luck proving Kun's anything more than an amusing distraction for either one.

LOLWUT. Sidious was splayed over that desk chair like he was about to get penetration from Yoda. He could have used some amulets then. Or perhaps just dignity.

And Dooku don't blow Sidious. There's no way he could pull LS and Gideon away to get any time in.

Sidious has... other body parts.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
To be quite honest, attempting to substantiate Exar Kun as a Sith Lord without his amulet is impossible, because's he's always wearing it. And it gives him one hell of a power boost:


This is why I don't like those old comics. In that era, being a powerful Sith was all about the bling and not about the user.

Sure, other stuff had sith artifacts, but Sith lords wouldn't become great on the strength of them alone.

Didnt DE Sidious disintegrate a lighsaber? Also I enjoy reading the argument about sidious not being the greatest because he was force pushed by the most powerful Jedi up to that time. Vodo's sole contribution was making a wooden stick l337.

What about that technique Kun did to Luke? Making Luke Skywalker powerless against you ain't to shabby.

manipulating black hole's durron had a looooot to do with that too.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Didnt DE Sidious disintegrate a lighsaber?


Didn't Kun's spirit desintegrate a holocron? Didn't Bane level a building?



I'd like to have a source for Yoda being the most powerful Jedi up to that time not coming from Yoda's own mind (aka the quote in the RotS novel). After providing such a source, you may try this "argument" again.



Yeah.
Aside from training Jedi for more than 500 years, which includes - but is not limited to - almost the entire protagonist cast from the TOTJ era comics. And the narrator apparently had some reason to call him an "experienced duellist".

Originally posted by Borbarad
Didn't Kun's spirit desintegrate a holocron? Didn't Bane level a building?
You mean he hit a holocron while wearing the amulet? As I recall, Sidious just pointed at the lightsaber and turned it into dustk.




I appreciate you letting me "try" this argument again, as you've been trying it for years.




Goly gee, an experienced duelist!!! Well then that explains it. Btw, I love the double standards here. When I mention Revan and how he learned in the underground cities of Malachor, you want specifics. But it's fine for us to call Vodo awesome because he's an "experienced duelist". That's hysterical Nai

the quote from ROTS is not from Yoda's mind.

Saying it is, and the comment about Dooku reagarding mace isn't is simply a matter of picking and choosing as you see fit.

Originally posted by truejedi
the quote from ROTS is not from Yoda's mind.

Saying it is, and the comment about Dooku reagarding mace isn't is simply a matter of picking and choosing as you see fit.

I believe I've already pointed out Nai's hypocrisy, now we get to watch him rationalize.

Sidious and Dooku win this.

But... Give amulets to Exar and Orbalisk to Bane and they win after an extremaly hard duel.

Agreed. I'd argue that RotS Sidious could overcome Orbalisks Bane in a difficult fight but Exar with the amulets would be too much for the Count hell he would be able to overcome Sidious.

A Bold Claim Approaches!

I might be inclined to agree. Sidious' superior speed will definately be a factor, but I'm just not sure he can fight Kun with teh guy spamming those amulet blasts like crazy. Those things are incredibly destructive, and spammable. Palpatines Force Lightning seems pretty impotent in comparison.*




*baaaaaaaaaaait!

no, i totally buy that, but it doesn't make Kun more powerful than Sidious. It means he has better weaponry. That's like saying Han with a Death Star Vs. Sidious on Alderaan.

Well I have no problems with that conclusion. But the amulets are a part of his standard equipment, just like lightsabers for Jedi or Boba Fetts jetpack. And taking his character as a whole, with the amulets, I'd give him the edge over Sidious (unless Gideon etc swoops in a blows my mind with a counter-argument).

it doesn't say much for Kun in the first place. I suppose it's possible that Sidious would simply take the amulet FROM kun...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I have no problems with that conclusion. But the amulets are a part of his standard equipment, just like lightsabers for Jedi or Boba Fetts jetpack. And taking his character as a whole, with the amulets, I'd give him the edge over Sidious (unless Gideon etc swoops in a blows my mind with a counter-argument).

That's just it, Sidious is better than Exar Kun. Unless he has extra equipment. Just like practically every Force user is better than Boba, unless Boba has his equipment.

Its not 'extra equipment' its 'standard equipment'. Exar Kun as he normally is can beat Sidious. You guys aren't ragging on Bane for using the Orbalisks, now are you? Whats the difference?

um, i usually DO make that same distinction with bane and the orbalisks actually. except bane with orbalisks still can't beat sidious.

You make the distinction between ROT and DOE Bane, two different incarnations of the same character with Bane possessing the Orbalisks in only one. You're not saying ROT Bane would suck ass without them! Here you're just objecting to Kun utilising his standard equipment. Its liek saying that Kun wouldn't be able to beat Sidious without his lightsaber: Of course, but in his standard incarnation, he would.

where did I object? now i'm confused. i responded to both scenarios.

TaX6ENKuf6s

don't show me gae animes when i'm talking to you

N.
(unless Gideon etc swoops in a blows my mind with a counter-argument).

Palpatine's a dangerous enough swordsman to hold his own against Mace Windu, despite the extraordinarily powerful metaphysical properties of Vaapad (ROTS novelization), and annihilate three of the Order's most celebrated swordmasters (The Complete Visual Dictionary). In addition, his power is sufficient to cow Dooku, who is himself one of the most respected, powerful, and skilled Jedi Masters in history (ROTS novelization) and affect thousands of Jedi across the galaxy; telekinetically, he's capable of casually manipulating automobile-sized Senate platforms.

Without his amulets, which "radically" enhance his power (even telekinetic power), I haven't seen anything Kun can produce that puts him on Palpatine's level. With his amulets, Palpatine's probably fast enough to make this a very personal fight and, while it is undoubtedly a closer match, he might still win.

My mind remains as perfect as it once was.

Phew.

as perfect as it ever was might be more accurate.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You mean he hit a holocron while wearing the amulet? As I recall, Sidious just pointed at the lightsaber and turned it into dustk.


No. I mean destroying a holocron that Luke Skywalker was holding in his hand, while he was a mere spirit.



I've been trying to prove Yoda's status as most powerful Jedi ever based on that quote? You may want to go find the post where I did, just before finding another source for your point.



Huh? Are you confusing me with Slash, Sexy? Or Lightsnake? Clearly your memory doesn't serve you well. I really like implications, like Revan looting a shitload of knowledge from Malachor, which doesn't mean that I always have to accept without further questioning.

In our present case, Vodo's skill is apparent from the fact, that he managed floor Kun with a single strike from his stick. You don't do that to "a master swordsman" when you don't have some skill, or do you? Did that escape your attention?

@truejedi

Originally posted by truejedi
the quote from ROTS is not from Yoda's mind.


Oh really, TJ? Apparently, you didn't learn anything from our last little confrontation on the field of literature interpretation. So here we go again.

"Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just didn't have it." - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Emphasis mine. Who does see the "truth" here, TJ?
It's Yoda. All of that is a result of Yoda's very own thoughts. It's his truth, not the truth. The entire novel is written from a third-person limited perspective, following the views of different characters within the story, e.g. Obi-Wan and Dooku at the beginning. And, gosh, the narrative mode doesn't change here, in order to produce some binding statement regarding Yoda's power.



I really don't know what you're talking about. I'm rather good as destinquishing between character statements / judgements and passages that are part of an "independent narrator" (which hardly exists in written fiction today). The only quotes regarding Mace and Dooku having to do with Yoda (?) are direct quotes from Yoda, which have to be treated like any other character statement (meaning that they are subject to interpretation and falsification). What is your point? That I need to assume, Yoda always tells and thinks the absolute truth in order to use of his statements as a basis for an argument?

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. I mean destroying a holocron that Luke Skywalker was holding in his hand, while he was a mere spirit.
Don't remember where that's from.




No, you've been trying to prove Kun's superiority for years.




My memory serves me extremely well. You and I have debated it to the death, when it's Revan against Kun or another ancient sith. I've always stated that Revan learned from holocrons and tomes in the underground cities on Malachor, and you've always told me to elaborate or drop the point. Hence, double standard.


What exactly does "master swordsman" mean? How would you quantify that when comparing Kun and Vodo to say Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious?

]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What exactly does "master swordsman" mean? How would you quantify that when comparing Kun and Vodo to say Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious?

When it pertains to a character from an older generation, "master swordsman" means equal to or superior than any fighter from a subsequent generation. When it applies to individuals from the prequel trilogy, like Masters Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar, it doesn't apply at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its not 'extra equipment' its 'standard equipment'. Exar Kun as he normally is can beat Sidious. You guys aren't ragging on Bane for using the Orbalisks, now are you? Whats the difference?

No, I just call it equipment. I prefer fights in which both combatants have the same amount of armor and weapons. That is the only way in which you can decide who is actually the best. If Exar gets amulets, then so should Sidious. If Bane gets Orbalisks, then so should Sidious. Fair is fair.

Okay, I'm not a wiz on literature like most of you here might be, but I don't see how Yoda being the "most powerful the darkness had ever known" is Yoda's opinion. It seems to me that the omniscience narrator is letting the reader know that Yoda's thoughts were the truth, unless that part is not coming from an omniscience narrator, and Yoda refers to himself as "he".

No, because thats bollocks. This is a forum for character battles. We take characters as they are and pit them against each other. Standard equipment is a forum-wide rule last I checked anyway.

That is not fair at all. Its like me saying that since Sidious has the Force Storm, every character he fights should get it. Greivous has a cybernetic body vastly superior to a humans, everyone should get it. The Exile is a wound, EVERYONE! Characters should fight as they normally appear unless otherwise specified. That is whats fair. Gimping one side by giving the other their advantages is just crap.


And btw giving Palpatine the orbalisks would cripple him from the pain, so yeah.

What you just said, N., is utterly moronic. Grievous's cybernetic strength isn't equipment, but a part of his physiology. The Exile's role as a "wound" in the Force is metaphysical, not based on equipment, nor is it voluntary. Palpatine's Force Storm is a technique in the Force reflecting his mastery of it.

Bane's orbalisks aren't a measure of his power and neither are Kun's amulets. They're equipment and thus do not reflect the power and skill of their users.

Utterly. Moronic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And btw giving Palpatine the orbalisks would cripple him from the pain, so yeah.

wut?

Remember the immense pain derived from the orbalisks literally feasting upon you?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Remember the immense pain derived from the orbalisks literally feasting upon you?

Bane got over it.

They are essential parts of the character. How has this ever not been a thing that was true? Its like taking the Master Sword from Link, The Sword of the West from Aragorn, a lightsaber from a Jedi.

Equipment is a part of a characters power. Are we going to argue that Samus sucks dick because she relies on a suit and then actually use that character in a forum fight? Why the fvck would we do that? Samus has the suit. That is her character. Would you take Mjolnir from Thor? IronMan from his armor? No, because they are a part of their power set. Since when has equipment suddenly been divorced from the wielder? Never, thats when. Exar Kun and ROT Bane fight with their respective artifacts. That is a part of their skillset. To argue that that is unfair is exactly the same as taking Force Lightning from Palpatine, GigaDrain from Nihilus.

Gimping one side by taking away or giving the other side their advantages is just bullcrap.





Oh I get it! Because thats what I said to you! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1!

Sidesplitting.



He had years and the spread of the orbalisks was gradual. Palpatines gonna start the fight and keel over in agony.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because thats bollocks. This is a forum for character battles. We take characters as they are and pit them against each other. Standard equipment is a forum-wide rule last I checked anyway.

I'm not going by what all forums are adopting (you conformist!). I'm explaining why it would be more logical to choose a character that is more powerful, without them being able to use any equipment that the other doesn't have.



This is an ability, it is not equipment.



He can't survive without a body... It's like Darth Vader gets to keep his armor, because without it he dies.



This is an inherent trait, not equipment.



Characters should fight how they truely are. Wedge is a pilot, his standard equipment is his X-Wing, it's how he normally appears. So when we have him fight Kit Fisto, he will just blast him away. Is that fair? Does that make Wedge better?



No, giving one side advantages in the first place is crap.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They are essential parts of the character.

They're not. They're equipment and weapons that can be removed or changed.



Great. Then I'm allowed to argue that Palpatine is capable of singlehandedly obliterating planets and destroying solar systems by virtue of Imperial super-weapons.



It's not part of their skillset, because it's not a skill. It's equipment. It's optional. It's voluntary. Force techniques, like the Force drain and lightning, are entirely different.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He had years and the spread of the orbalisks was gradual. Palpatines gonna start the fight and keel over in agony.

It is utterly moronic for you to suggest this. Palpatine will be starting the duel at full strength with the orbalisks previously equipped; any side-effects would naturally have been dealt with. If he were just putting them on when the fight begins, then perhaps* you might have a point.






*You probably still wouldn't, actually. Palpatine took his Force lightning to the face, causing incredible damage to his flesh; Starkiller hurled him into the ceiling of his control tower of the Death Star and then flung him to the floor; he also took an explosion to the face that was powerful enough to obliterate his tower and cause notable superficial damage to the Death Star from a distance. And he got back up. His threshold for pain is immense.

When characters fight, they usually have a set of standard equipment that they use in that fight. To suggest that don't use it in a forum fight is the same as expecting Jedi not to use a lightsaber. Jedi use lightsabers, hence, they use lightsabers in this forum*. Exar Kun uses his amulets, hence he uses his amulet in this forum*.


*Unless otherwise specified. Obviously it is up to the threadstarter.




Vehicle /=/ equipment.

Besides, Palpatine is not usually accompanied into a duel with teh Death Star.



Force techniques are learnt. It is entirely optional whether they are. Therefore, obviously they should be thrown out.


I like how you ignored half my post as well as the miriad examples of characters whose skillset rely on equipment. Keep it classy Gid!

baaaaaaaaaaaait!






Oh, I guess that should have been obvious to me? I'm..... sorry?


?????

Here are my thoughts on the matter. I'm fine having Exar Kun use his amulets in a forum fight. However, I believe that saying Exar Kun is more powerful than another force user because of his amulets is faulty as it is not solely his own power.

Lightsaber duels and Force powers are ubiquitous in combat throughout the saga. Exar Kun's amulets are not. Orbalisks are not. The Dark Reaper is not. The Death Star is not. Without his amulets, Kun still has a melee weapon and access to the Force to fight. Without orbalisks, Bane, too, has a lightsaber and the Force. Force techniques, not Force artifacts, are a part of one's skill set.

But, of course, I can't give Palpatine or Dooku such weapons, because it would be cheating.

I'll give you one thing: You're consistent. Even your cherrypicking is flamboyant.

And I'm explaining that equipment is a definate part of a characters powers. Would you seperate Samus, Thor, IronMan etc from their various equipment in order to have a 'fair' fight?




They are all advantages! And as you say:


'No, giving one side advantages in the first place is crap.'

Guess they should be thrown out?



As I said to Gideon, a vehicle is not standard equipment. He cannot 'equip' a starship, now can he? He drives it.



No fight is fair. All characters possess advantages over others than enable them to fight. I fail to see how an advantage in terms of equipment is any different from an advantage in terms of skill or power. Because there is no difference.

I 100% agree.

Originally posted by ares834
Here are my thoughts on the matter. I'm fine having Exar Kun use his amulets in a forum fight. However, I believe that saying Exar Kun is more powerful than another force user because of his amulets is faulty as it is not solely his own power.

What a radical idea.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Lightsaber duels and Force powers are ubiquitous in combat throughout the saga. Exar Kun's amulets are not. Orbalisks are not. The Dark Reaper is not. The Death Star is not. Without his amulets, Kun still has a melee weapon and access to the Force to fight. Without orbalisks, Bane, too, has a lightsaber and the Force. Force techniques, not Force artifacts, are a part of one's skill set.

But, of course, I can't give Palpatine or Dooku such weapons, because it would be cheating.

I'll give you one thing: You're consistent. Even your cherrypicking is flamboyant.

You still fail to address the majority of my points. Kindly do so or stop replying.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No fight is fair. All characters possess advantages over others than enable them to fight. I fail to see how an advantage in terms of equipment is any different from an advantage in terms of skill or power. Because there is no difference.

It's not that difficult.

"Advantage in terms of skill and power" reflect a person's inherent ability. Advantages from equipment are from a person putting something that on that gives them abilities that they would not be able to produce otherwise.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You still fail to address the majority of my points. Kindly do so or stop replying.

I'm not interested in arguing examples of characters from other fictional realms, otherwise I'd be in the Comic Book forum. The advantages of Kun's amulets and Bane's orbalisks aren't indicative of their own abilities.

The Death Star doesn't count because it's a vehicle? I view it as equipment, since its primary purpose is to destroy, not move. Ergo, it counts. Palpatine can use it.

/thread

Wouldn't taking Kun's ambulants away be like taking Thor's hammer away(like Neph said), or Gambit's cards away?

Either way, I still see Palpatine taking majority of the wins rather Kun has his ambulants or not?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I'm explaining that equipment is a definate part of a characters powers. Would you seperate Samus, Thor, IronMan etc from their various equipment in order to have a 'fair' fight?

I do not visit other versus forums except for the Star Wars one. Here we base the combatants power on their use of the Force and duelling skills. If I wanted to see how much strength Tony Stark has, then ofcourse he can't use the suit. It's important to know which outcome you want to achieve, if we'd want to know how Tony in a suit fares then he can have the suit. Here, we want to know which character is the more powerful Force user.



Advantages in referance to equipment. We're still talking about equipment here.



Technically, he flies it. You could see it as a mode of transportation, but then Boba isn't allowed to use a jetpack either as standard equipment. This is exactly the question, where do you draw the line?



Because equipment has nothing to do with one's actual power or strength. The two things a thread starter practically always wants to know is 1) who wins a lightsaber fight and 2) who wins a Force fight.

Btw, I still see lightsabers as equipment as well. But if one combatant can use a lightsaber, then so can the other.

Wherever he wants it, apparently.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Wouldn't taking Kun's ambulants away be like taking Thor's hammer away(like Neph said), or Gambit's cards away?

Either way, I still see Palpatine taking majority of the wins rather Kun has his ambulants or not?


Ambulants? WTF.

I'm not sure about Mjolnir or Gambit's cards, but Kun still has access to to the Force with or without his amulets. If they were the only source of his power, then I could understand how he'd be gimped.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Wherever he wants it, apparently.

The first letter of my user name is still the "S" of Sex.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
The first letter of my user name is still the "S" of Sex.

I put "N" for "Not Sexy."

Originally posted by RagingBoner
It's not that difficult.

"Advantage in terms of skill and power" reflect a person's inherent ability. Advantages from equipment are from a person putting something that on that gives them abilities that they would not be able to produce otherwise.

And here I thought we were a battle forum when we've really been a system with which to measure a characters inherent worth. Silly me.

Except that this is a battle forum and in a battle forum we use the totality of a character rather than a gimped version stripped of the part of their powerset we don't like.



And yet the same problem when arguing with Comic and Game characters is appearing right here. Star Wars isn't some special case where rules and logic don't apply to it. Characters have items as part of their powerset. To remove these items is to cripple said powerset. End of. The examples I listed as completely releent to this discussion, you just brushing them off with 'hurr durr star wars only plz!' doesn't diminish that fact.




You cannot 'equip' a Death Star. Thus it is not equipment.



Ok how about this. From now on Boba Fett gets no equipment at all. In fact, all characters must fight naked and greased up. That way we can really get a bead on their 'inherent worth' rather than actual combat ability. Because that would just be stupid!

The reason why I never thought it to be unfair for Kun to use his ambulants is because I thought it required skill to use them. Kinda like using a lightsaber. Or Boba using his blasters. It would be different if anyone can use it with the same efficiency. But I don't know much about the ambulants so I wouldn't know.

Originally posted by Nephthys
actual combat ability.

There's that word again. Amulets + orbalisks + Death Star do not equal ability or skill.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The reason why I never thought it to be unfair for Kun to use his ambulants is because I thought it required skill to use them. Kinda like using a lightsaber. Or Boba using his blasters. It would be different if anyone can use it with the same efficiency. But I don't know much about the ambulants so I wouldn't know.

Lightsabers and Sith swords are ubiquitous weapons in the realm of Jedi and Sith.

Originally posted by Flacid
I put "N" for "Not Sexy."

I'd rather not be DS indeed.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I'd rather not be DS indeed.
Your loss.

I must have misread that from the rules. I was labouring under the misapprehension that we we about 'versus fights'. Now it seems that not only are we here to establish a characters 'inherent worth' but also to soley find their strength as a Force wielder.

Awesome.



As I said there is no difference between advantages in terms of equipment or power.



And yet he is completely seperate from the vehicle himself. Bobas jetpack on the otherhand is strapped to his back. He can actually walk around with the thing. Hence he has 'equipped' it. You can't do that to a car or a moon-sized battlestation.



And we are not here to establish a person actual strength in the Force or their inner strength bs. We are here to see who can beat who in a fight. Nothing more, nothing less.

You and Gideon seem to be misunderstanding what we're doing here.

ONCE AGAIN:

We are not here to establish either. We are here to see who can beat whom in a fight. Equipment included.





x frustration!

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Ambulants? WTF.

AMULET. Lol, my bad. I didn't even realize I've been spelling that wrong.

Shut up.

Originally posted by RagingBoner


I see. I always thought most sith in ancient times required the use of artifacts since they never do anything that great without them (lol).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I see. I always thought most sith in ancient times required the use of artifacts since they never do anything that great without them (lol).

lol.

Fights aren't always fair.

Sometimes some people will naturally be out-gunned. But that's part of the deal.

I'm guessing here that Dooku either gets offed by Bane, or Kun after great difficulty.

This'll probably come down to Kun+Bane versus Sids - but without the Ambulent or Orbalisks.

Originally posted by NowYouRemember
lol.

Well except for Nihilus and maybe Muur.

But really if you think about it majority of the sith in ancient times all required the use of artifacts to do anything real impressive. It's like they did not have the command and control over their powers like Palpatine, Bane, Dooku, Vader, or even Krayt. Which is why I don't see where the argument comes that they were greater masters over the force.

That is why I thought it was only fair to allow them access to their artifacts.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I'm cool with that. When haven't I?
That is, will enter the fight fully fed and lucid.

Hooray!

Originally posted by Nephthys
I must have misread that from the rules. I was labouring under the misapprehension that we we about 'versus fights'. Now it seems that not only are we here to establish a characters 'inherent worth' but also to soley find their strength as a Force wielder.

Awesome.

So you agree that if we want to see who is the best Force wielder, they can't use any extra equipment that the other one doesn't have.





Yes, there obviously is a difference. It depends on what you want to know, if you want to know who's more powerful then you can't add equipment that has nothing to do with one's inherent power. If however you want to know who has the best equipment, by all means...





You can strap yourself in an X-Wing (I could give you pictures so you can clearly see they're essentially the same). But that's not the point, the point is that the X-Wing is as part of him as the Jetpack is a part of Boba Fett.





What we're doing here has nothing to do with what I initially meant. With better, I meant in terms of Jedi skills (Force and duelling) or sometimes Blaster skills.

I responded partially to this post:

Originally posted by truejedi
no, i totally buy that, but it doesn't make Kun more powerful than Sidious. It means he has better weaponry. That's like saying Han with a Death Star Vs. Sidious on Alderaan.

and then you were like:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I have no problems with that conclusion. But the amulets are a part of his standard equipment, just like lightsabers for Jedi or Boba Fetts jetpack. And taking his character as a whole, with the amulets, I'd give him the edge over Sidious (unless Gideon etc swoops in a blows my mind with a counter-argument).

and I was like:

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
That's just it, Sidious is better than Exar Kun. Unless he has extra equipment. Just like practically every Force user is better than Boba, unless Boba has his equipment.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well except for Nihilus and maybe Muur.

But really if you think about it majority of the sith in ancient times all required the use of artifacts to do anything real impressive. It's like they did not have the command and control over their powers like Palpatine, Bane, Dooku, Vader, or even Krayt. Which is why I don't see where the argument comes that they were greater masters over the force.

That is why I thought it was only fair to allow them access to their artifacts.

I can't remember exactly, but right after I got into Star Wars just before TPM came out, I dug into alot of information regarding Marka Ragnos along with a few other intellectual acquaintances and they postulated that genetic Force Sensitivity might apparently be very strong in the actual Sith species, and we also noticed that with every generation, that sensitivity seems to decrease.
Though of course, that is about halfway speculative, as we now know that Force Sensitivity doesn't have everything to do with genes.

Like I said, it's been years since I delved into that particular research, but I remember uncovering interesting clues about how genetically powerful the Sith species might have been, and also why the Dark Jedi that interbred with them were also consequently powerful - even as the Sith species itself was completely absorbed into that of the Human interlopers.

I'd like very much to obtain those papers we wrote again..

Either way, I think the ancient Sith people themselves, especially those that were Sith Lords, probably made the powerful Jedi of some of the later generations look like complete toys.
I don't think they needed talismans and such to be bad asses. They just wanted them for an edge and such.

I don't see how you got that from my post.



Cool beans! Here in the versus forum we want to know which character is better in combat. Thats why its a versus forum rather than a lets see who's more powerful/has the best equipment forum.



No, you have seatbelts. They're not the same thing. In an X-Wing, you strap yourself into the X-Wing. With a Jetpack, you strap it on yourself and carry it around with you. A jetpack is a part of your personal equipment and unless you take it off is always available on your person. An X-Wing, is your vehicle, you drive it from place to place and shoot stuff with it. However, you cannot carry it around with you and it isn't always readily available. Thus, it does not count as personal equipment.








Highlight mine. I never claimed that Kun was more powerful than Sidious, just that he could take him in a fight and also that a characters equipment is obviously a part of their powerset.

So who ultimately wins this?

Team 1 or 2?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Palpatine's a dangerous enough swordsman to hold his own against Mace Windu, despite the extraordinarily powerful metaphysical properties of Vaapad (ROTS novelization), and annihilate three of the Order's most celebrated swordmasters (The Complete Visual Dictionary).

I'll give him the holding against Mace Windu aspect, but the three Jedi members? You mean the ones that mostly stood still while he impaled them? In the highest canon source ever? Didn't we debunk that claim with actual evidence? It's like saying I'm a legendary fighter, but Bruce Lee breaks my neck because I stand still in life or death combat. It does not compute.



http://i54.tinypic.com/2rpv5aq.jpg

^ Exar Kun's cries of anguish as the dark side heals him is felt and heard across the galaxy. Vodo immediately recognizes than Kun has fell to the dark side, and is afraid of the coming storm.

http://i53.tinypic.com/1730n4.jpg

^ Exar Kun possesses a hoard of lore and items from Ossus, the greatest of the Jedi libraries, more than he could ever use.

http://i56.tinypic.com/312ibm8.jpg

^ Kun shows perfection in a Sith spell which silently freezes thousands of sentient beings still, enough to literally stop an army in its tracks and butcher it without danger. This is an incredible Force feat.

http://i54.tinypic.com/xng6ir.jpg

^ Exar Kun drains the Massassi people - thousands - as he attempts to anchor his spirit to the physical world, unlike Sidious' essence transfer which required a physical body. However, because he had not mastered the technique and the entire Jedi Order - some thousands of trained Force users - joined in a wall of light to sever him from the Force, he was left disembodied for four thousand years. Still, he had much power in this state once he attacked Luke's Order.

Note that the narrator calls his spirit itself "powerful", and suggests that he could perhaps run rampant through the cosmos without a body.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2n19y5u.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/mlk1tx.jpg

^ Showcasing how much the amulet bumps him up in the hierarchy. His rage is increased hundreds of thousands of times. Each pulse doubles in power. He easily destroys the Sith wyrm and the Temple of Fire, and by the end of it he's using so much power he can barely control it. He then turns the power on Nadd - a Sith Lord and spirit of considerable power - and destroys him utterly.

I'd say he's up there.



Actually, I demonstrated in my detailed RotS duel commentary that the sound of the pods' levitation devices was clearly audible and that he was using TK on the controls, not the entire weight of the pods themselves. This diminishes the feat considerably, considering Qui-Gon Jinn was able to use the Force on a small scale to manipulate droid innards to shut them down. Qui-Gon = Sidious? I think not.



That's just it - this isn't about Kun "impressing" you with what he can do without the amulets. He always has them! They multiply his rage and power exponentially, making him potentially stronger than most if not all Force users and definitely more powerful than the relatively unaided, unless you want to argue Sidious > hundreds of thousands of Kun, in which case put the pipe down.

Kun has the amulets. They make him BA. I don't care if you and your posse like it, he's a top tier Force user. End of debate.

I'd like to point out if you are going to say that 3 Jedi Masters were standing still because of how it LOOKED onscreen... , and then discount Sidious's victory because of it... you might be careful when you start using a comic book to prove someone else's abilities, all of his opponents look rather still as well....


And don't put "End of Debate" At the end of a single post. It is remarkably bad form.

Do I need to define "without" for you?



Yep, the source of Exar Kun's power: glorified Sith accessories. And you expect me to be impressed when Palpatine, Dooku, Vader and others don't need that shit?





Welcome back, honey.






I'll get to this later, promise.

Originally posted by truejedi
I'd like to point out if you are going to say that 3 Jedi Masters were standing still because of how it LOOKED onscreen... , and then discount Sidious's victory because of it... you might be careful when you start using a comic book to prove someone else's abilities, all of his opponents look rather still as well....


And don't put "End of Debate" At the end of a single post. It is remarkably bad form.
are... are you trying to make a joke about comic books' pictures staying still?

Unfunny, dude.

not a joke. an observation. arguing "how things appear" isnt' a good route when your own source material is a comic book... Gideon and I discussed that before he died concerning DE.

(Me) Too Jedi:

Originally posted by truejedi
I'd like to point out if you are going to say that 3 Jedi Masters were standing still because of how it LOOKED onscreen... , and then discount Sidious's victory because of it... you might be careful when you start using a comic book to prove someone else's abilities, all of his opponents look rather still as well....

Firstly, movies = absolute highest canon. They are greater and truer sources than anything else.

Secondly, the master swordsmen and Jedi in question did almost nothing to defend themselves. Sidious overcoming them isn't a laudable feat because literally anyone in the series could have jumped forward and stabbed two Jedi who didn't lift a finger to save themselves.

A single source saying "Larry, Curly, and Moe Jedi Masters were uber among their Order or for all time, etc. lol" doesn't overwrite the fact that the fight with Sidious is their lowest showing ever.

And Kit Fisto himself was KO'd by Ventress in seconds in The Cestus Deception. Ventress = Sidious?



If you need to grab small details with your ankle-biting Me Too mentality, by all means, I won't condescend to tell you how to post. But don't preach down to me from a pedestal of morality. It doesn't work like that.


Flaccid Sidious Boner:



You must have slept in, I'm sorry; let me refresh you - I brought up to NYR that clearly Kun can't be argued without his amulets because:

1. He always has them as a Sith. So they are always on his person.

2. They clearly make him more powerful, even if you just eliminate the amulet blasts themselves. LL brought up that usually the blasts themselves are removed, but not the amulets. So my argument stands.

I'd give you a blue ribbon for reading comprehension, but that would be like rewarding an F student.



There's a reason they don't have that shit -- the Jedi spent millenia destroying the Sith amulets because they were among the most powerful of Dark Side artifacts. It's stated in the TotJ compendium. Considering the goal of a Sith is enhancing one's power base to maintain power, I'd say that the post-Ruusan Sith not having amulets is a huge strike against them and their standing. If Sadow's amulet is similar to most Sith Lords or even the top half dozen, this doesn't bode well for Sith who come after.



Obvious misrepresentation of what I really did on a regular basis. But you're entitled to tee hee.

Originally posted by truejedi
not a joke. an observation. arguing "how things appear" isnt' a good route when your own source material is a comic book... Gideon and I discussed that before he died concerning DE.

???

Artwork is a critical aspect of the comic book format. Surely you aren't saying we should ignore an entire genera? Because that's what Gideon is after. The only things mainstream enough to be found in splatbooks are the events around the movies. If we ignore everything outside of that era, then Palpatine is hands down the most powerful Sith. Going by the other media available, however, it becomes less cut and dried. (Which he hates.)

I believe Sidious moved quickly enough that 3 high-ranking masters were unable to react. Fisto at least, has many strong saber showings.

At least, that's how it looked to me... onscreen... in the movie... the highest form of canon. Are you going to tell me that your interpretation of what you see onscreen is more important than my interpretation?

and please, suit yourself and put whatever you want at the end of your post, but remember you are convincing no one but yourself...

This anthropology final sucks so much I've mentally dubbed it "Kyle's Mom" for amusement purposes. Between KMC, my iPod, and DamnYouAutoCorrect.com, I'm tempted just to finish it tomorrow.

tj
I believe Sidious moved quickly enough that 3 high-ranking masters were unable to react.





You obviously don't know him very well. That's exactly what he's going to tell you.

Originally posted by truejedi
I believe Sidious moved quickly enough that 3 high-ranking masters were unable to react. Fisto at least, has many strong saber showings.

At least, that's how it looked to me... onscreen... in the movie... the highest form of canon. Are you going to tell me that your interpretation of what you see onscreen is more important than my interpretation?

and please, suit yourself and put whatever you want at the end of your post, but remember you are convincing no one but yourself...
More important?

I think more accurate might be something that he could pull off. (Advent's use of TPM is a good example of this idea.)

i know, i just want him to say it, so i can quote it in every single thread for the rest of kmc's existence. (I give this section maybe 1 more year before someone just closes it)

Z.
Surely you aren't saying we should ignore an entire genera?

If we set aside the fact that he didn't say anything like this, I'm pretty sure that's what he's getting at.





I'm pretty sure Gideon routinely references events, scans, and quotes taken from comics and has never supported wholesale dismissal of them. But you're pretty good at finding sources like the one that says Nihilus is as much of a dark side nexus as Palpatineso why don't you find where he said that, just for kicks or are you used to making claims you can never back up?.



You're one of those emo guys who b1tch and moan about his favorite indie bands not getting a major record deal. Just stop. Are you really that butthurt over your boy only getting three reference pages in a book that should be all about him?



I forgot that sourcebooks are "lame" when they don't support you. What a rationalist you are.



Give him time.

I did not hear any sounds of levitation devices. Those pods were forcefully ripped out of there holdings. You can even see the sparks from them being ripped out. Sidious' hand signals also indicate that he was using the force to guide and direct the pod's directions.

I don't mind anyone making a case for why they might believe another sith to be on par with Sidious, as long as they make a good argument. But when you try to make false claims as to why Sidious was able to easily handle those pods when the scene proves otherwise, it just makes you seem desparate for another sith to outdo him. If Kun has a better TK feat then mention it, but don't try to downplay Sidious' feat in order to make Kun look better. Kapeesh?

S66
you seem desparate

Desperation, a fragrance by Janus Marius.

Has else anyone stopped recently to reflect on just how nerdy these useless analyses are?

Are you joking? If my favorite bands got a major record deal they would no longer be my favorite bands.

To continue the analogy, though, I do bytch and moan every time I hear someone say "Journey? That's that band the guy from Glee likes, right?"

Edit: Also, your musical tastes in this analogy is essentially that of a Hannah Montana fan.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Has else anyone stopped recently to reflect on just how nerdy these useless analyses are?

i thought you and i both came to that conclusion years ago? We talked about it, remember canadien?

I'm not French. And not really, my memories ain't so good, Ameridian.

Originally posted by truejedi
I believe Sidious moved quickly enough that 3 high-ranking masters were unable to react. Fisto at least, has many strong saber showings.

At least, that's how it looked to me... onscreen... in the movie... the highest form of canon. Are you going to tell me that your interpretation of what you see onscreen is more important than my interpretation?

and please, suit yourself and put whatever you want at the end of your post, but remember you are convincing no one but yourself...

Here's what I saw: (Link)

0:38
Saber ignited. Note that the Jedi are already armed, meaning they expect resistance.

0:40
Initiation of flying attack. Note that attack is straightforward.

0:42
Sidious lands. He is about 2-3 feet from the foremost Jedi Masters. They had already raised their blades to a high guard in anticipation during his spiraling flight.

0:43
Sidious pulls back in a clearly telegraphed thrust.

0:44
Sidious spears a Jedi Master. On the screen, Tiin can clearly cleave Sidious in two. His weapon is high, he has is in perfect slicing distance, and Sidious is busy putting his entire saber through Agen. We see that he does raise his blade to strike but...

0:45
Sidious rolls his blade across, opposite of all of the Jedi, and then hits Tiin with a backhand.

0:47
Sidious completes his circuit and initiates a one-handed swipe to Kit Fisto. Note that Fisto did not try to attack before this, nor did Mace Windu.

0:47
After connecting with Fisto's guard, Sidious cuts high and is deflected by Mace Windu.

0:48
Sidious completes a circuit again, brings his blade up and unbalances Kit Fisto, and then pursues Mace.

0:49
Mace does a down cut to deflect Sidious' attack. He moves back a step before doing a circuit opposite of Sidious to cut horizontal. Heartbeat later, and we see Sidious coming high facing Fisto who is aiming midlevel now, attacking, while Mace Windu completes an unnecessary spin to cut at Sidious' back.

0:50
Sidious holds his blade vertical and both Mace and Kit hit it simulatenously. He dances backwards.

0:51
Mace has disengaged. Sidious completes his twirl and cleaves Kit Fisto in half, his guard hanging useless.

0:52
Cue Mace and Sidious shuffling down a hall.

Quite frankly, this is a low showing for everyone but Sidious. Clearly, there's three separate occasions where one of the Jedi could have engaged and spoiled Sidious' rush if not outright killed him. They had five whole seconds to actually respond to his clearly telegraphed and straightforward attack, but chose to raise their swords and die.

What did you see? Sidious moving faster than trained experts who capitalize openings and fought epically for their lives? A coherent battle plan enacted by Jedi who are trained to fight with lightsabers against a single opponent?

While it is true that in limited space, a single opponent may have advantages against many, in this case it's as if the Jedi didn't really try in earnest to even strike at him. Being caught flat-footed over that glowing red psycho crusher is embrassing. And considering how Jedi like Obi-Wan can destroy faster combatants like Grievous, this is especially disappointing.

-------

Sidious Fan 666




Check 2:43

You can CLEARLY hear the sound of the pods' levitation devices. Do me a favor and listen to them while you think up a reply. Kapeesh?

and your spelling are not so well either.

Originally posted by truejedi
where did i say that? What I am saying is you can't make dismiss Sidious's feat of killing 3 master-swordsmen in seconds because to YOU it looks as though he wasn't moving very fast, when the people you ARE defending move only in still images. Cut the hypocrisy.
I don't think you've understood my point.

Just because the Comic book format is not a video format, does not make it ineligible for comparative analysis. Artwork, especially static artwork, is a major component of the SW mythos (in the form of many hundreds of issues of comic books, notably Dark Empire and TotJ). You absolutely cannot discount the comics just because they do not move; their depiction of events is just as canon as is the films'.

Your allegation of hypocrisy is amusing, if unsolicited. Janus was using the available information (found in the Ep. III theatrical release) and drawing conclusions based on that source. Meanwhile, he used the TotJ comics as a different source for a separate issue. Any "hypocrisy" would lie with the person trying to cherrypick sources to use.


Apparently we can accuse each other of cherrypicking whenever we disagree about anything.

Didn't GL himself state that the Sidious fight scene was intentionally slowed down? If so, who cares about any of your interpretations of the theatrical release. If GL states this was his intentions, why is this even a debate?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
0:44
Sidious spears a Jedi Master. On the screen, Tiin can clearly cleave Sidious in two. His weapon is high, he has is in perfect slicing distance, and Sidious is busy putting his entire saber through Agen. We see that he does raise his blade to strike but... Agen was also facing the other way...


For some reason.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Didn't GL himself state that the Sidious fight scene was intentionally slowed down? If so, who cares about any of your interpretations of the theatrical release. If GL states this was his intentions, why is this even a debate?
Source and link, please.

Because I remember Samuel L. being told at the last minute that he had to do the stunt and then getting like 20 minutes of time with the choreographer.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Agen was also facing the other way...


For some reason.

I especially love the twirling combat maneuvers in opposite directions of your opponent in the opening of a small office.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Check 2:43

You can CLEARLY hear the sound of the pods' levitation devices. Do me a favor and listen to them while you think up a reply. Kapeesh? Could that not be just the one he's standing on?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Could that not be just the one he's standing on?

No, because for the next ten seconds or so as he "throws" them, the levitating sound changes pitch while the camera follows the thrown pods, indicating that they are the ones generating the sound. As one of them goes very close to the camera while being moved higher, you hear it whoosh by with the same sound.

actually no, it looks alright to me. Really, what kind of combat expert are you to criticize a Jedi Master's form? You really have no case unless you can get a source stating that those Jedi made a mistake in combat. and they certainly didn't "freeze".

And Z: I don't even think you HAD a point. Until there is some proof that for some reason the jedi chose to freeze, then they didn't in relation to Sidious... that should be obvious.

SM
I'll give him the holding against Mace Windu aspect, but the three Jedi members?

Yes, Council members. Referenced as "celebrated swordmasters" during the golden age of the Jedi order.



Because, in conjunction with the Lucas approved-and-line-edited novelization, Palpatine was faster than they were.



Yes.









If Bruce Lee was harnessing the powers of an energy field and his Force-wielding abilities were well beyond yours, this would be an appropriate comparison.



Good to know that one's cries of anguish and a Jedi Master being bothered rival another's ability to smother the Force perceptions of ten thousand Jedi at their height. You have a unique system of comparison.



Dear God, don't make me reference the section about Palpatine's Force knowledge in myGideon's essay, it'll probably make me double post.



Are you kidding me? Doesn't the narration say "ritual"? Since when are rituals indicative of combat ability and natural power?





Let me get this straight: Kun tries to perform a technique that would enable him to do something Sidious can't. Kun fails. Kun winds up in a damn near identical position. But because he tried, well, not only does he get full credit, but he's now better than Sidious in all ways?

Wait.



Wait.



Wait.






No, I still don't see it.



Kun's definitely powerful, even in a spectral form, but you're neglecting the critical presence of Kyp Durron in many of his attacks against the new Jedi Order.





But none of these apply when directed at Sidious. Really, man? Can we not agree on some common ground here?






But... he... doesn't.



Because of the amulet?



What a conclusion, just based on the noise. You should loan your Ears out to Leland Chee and the folks at LFL, given the fvckton of continuity errors they find themselves in with the new TV show.





From NYR to Lucien, eh? I didn't realize your selectivity transcended canon sources to posters. Because they're clearly the same guy, right?



That's great. But for the purposes of this match, he's without them.



Given your abysmal reading comprehension, deplorable aptitude for interpretation, and your chronic inability to properly source anything (because Lucien can apparently alter the thread starter's scenario at whim!), I'd say this F student feels sufficient pity to hand the ribbon to his mentally handicapped friend Janus, whose perpetual drooling and inarticulate ramble is somewhat endearing. <3

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, because for the next ten seconds or so as he "throws" them, the levitating sound changes pitch while the camera follows the thrown pods, indicating that they are the ones generating the sound. As one of them goes very close to the camera while being moved higher, you hear it whoosh by with the same sound. Strange though, you'd think that if the repulsorlifts the pods use to stay afloat is active, it would make Sidious' propelling of them downwards all the more impressive.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, because for the next ten seconds or so as he "throws" them, the levitating sound changes pitch while the camera follows the thrown pods, indicating that they are the ones generating the sound. As one of them goes very close to the camera while being moved higher, you hear it whoosh by with the same sound.

ooooh wait, could also be their stabilizors getting their asses kicked by his tk....

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Strange though, you'd think that if the repulsorlifts the pods use to stay afloat is active, it would make Sidious' propelling of them downwards all the more impressive.

ninja'd. but yes, my point exactly.

Wondeful. We're back to 3 years ago.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Agen was also facing the other way...


For some reason.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Didn't GL himself state that the Sidious fight scene was intentionally slowed down? If so, who cares about any of your interpretations of the theatrical release. If GL states this was his intentions, why is this even a debate?

It was Leland Chee on SW's Holocron continuity database who said that speeds depicted in the films and EU do not contradict one another. George Lucas said that one "has to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" which in Janus-speak means "everyone not named in this sentence sucks except Dooku."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wondeful. We're back to 3 years ago. Nostalgia's so awesome. Specially when it's a critic/chick.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
It was Leland Chee on SW's Holocron continuity database who said that speeds depicted in the films and EU do not contradict one another. George Lucas said that one "has to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" which in Janus-speak means "everyone not named in this sentence sucks except Dooku."

That sounds about right. So I guess the rationalization is that even though Chee is THE authority on this matter not named Lucas, it wasn't in the movies so it doesn't count? Do I have that right?

probably winding up for a strike? You know, like a lot of them do. (watch the clone wars, they do it every 6 seconds, not really sound tactics for fencing, but it seems to work for jedi)

You expect me to forgive the (very) limited medium of comics but you won't meet the failing of a film half way? For you to pretend that the jedi just stood there to be cut down when they went in, lightsabers ignited, ready to do battle, for ANY other reason than Sidious was simply too fast (you had to be Anakin, Yoda, or Mace to fight sidious, remember, GL's words there) is asking us to believe that every person in the mythos who ever froze before being struck down (read: ALL of the them, every lightsaber fight ends with an abnormal freeze) was simply an incompetent fighter, even when we know this not to be true.

So if you are seriously going to go with a "how things look" approach to movies, then I am going to simply ask you to prove one thing for me:

Prove that ANY opponent to an ancient sith featured only in comics had the ability to move faster than Yoda without the force. that's all i ask, because it doesn't appear that way to me....

DS
That sounds about right.

I've picked up enough of his lingo to hold a conversation with him. For example,



as:FJwr'jrrtztkhm"khtrs
jkdr
]jks[rjkrs'phkd'k'gke[phket[jka'[jk[jkpoDookuwankw
ankwankguguuuuuuuuuuuuuuwd

^ That means "Hello, I hope you are having a pleasant evening." But I think the subtleties are a little off.



Expect it to be an extraordinarily well-written NO U.

and THAT rationale from someone trying to use comics to prove a point....

Originally posted by truejedi
and THAT rationale from someone trying to use comics to prove a point....

Why have you all buried my response to him between a mountain of sillytalk?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Why have you all buried my response to him between a mountain of sillytalk?

because i don't particularly care about your sidious debate. it is the absurd amount of picking and choosing that has been going on around here recently that concerns me. everyone seems to believe they are chee now.

Originally posted by truejedi
because i don't particularly care about your sidious debate. it is the absurd amount of picking and choosing that has been going on around here recently that concerns me. everyone seems to believe they are chee now.

I am the Continuity.

you tried to be, but no one goes to that website anymore...

Snap!

Originally posted by truejedi
you tried to be, but no one goes to that website anymore...

That was horribly insensitive.

tj
because i don't particularly care about your sidious debate. it is the absurd amount of picking and choosing that has been going on around here recently that concerns me. everyone seems to believe they are chee now.

For my part, I tried to explain in the BattleBar my belief on the subject. I don't believe that Palpatine is a black hole of the Force and I don't believe speculation on the part of Visas Marr and Colonel Tobin is anywhere close to what is necessary to proclaim Nihilus the undisputed cosmic threat in the mythos. It seems that no one outside of the two or three characters in KotOR II comes that conclusion anyways.

it was. i take it back. look into my avvy's baby eyes and forgive me.